Jason Craig: the only time we have a conversation about price is at the very beginning of the project. and it's amazing how much stress when you're doing cost plus, you're talking about price every single day. talking about $10,000 here, $20,000 there. And it's a very exhausting experience for customers.
Eric Mollerup: All right, everyone, welcome back to the Build Hour podcast. I'm super thrilled, have a very special guest on here with us today, Jason Craig, owner of Co's Design and Build. Jason, you're located in Pitt Meadows, British Columbia. So, you know, I I always love to understand everyone's backstory a little bit before we get into the nitty-gritty. how'd you get into Custom home building. How did that happen?
Jason Craig: Yeah, thank thanks for for having me on, Eric. I really appreciate it. appreciate the opportunity to be on here speaking to all the other builders out there. yeah, how did I how did I get into it? I started, I mean, I've been doing this since I was a kid, to be honest. So Like grade seven, I was working, my my dad had me on site for a week and I was working on foundations. I I lasted about a week. and then that that was my first taste of construction. but I always really liked the just seeing things go together. That's always been something that's been interesting to me. and that's really what building is is is kind of building Building something from almost nothing, right? So yeah, grade seven. And then I I graduated high school and then started working for my dad's company. worked for him for about 10 years or so. and then during that time I did my business degree. So I kind of got a bit of business acumen while I was doing the construction thing. yeah, and and during that time working for my dad, I I I I was doing a lot of hands-on stuff initially. So framing and then site supervision. Then I when I about at the end of that time with him, I started my brother started a company. I worked for him for 10 years. working for my dad, we mostly did development. So we built, you know, 50 houses at a time. and so that really learned a lot there kind of just on all fronts. and then when I joined my brother, I I took on a project management role and and we were doing a lot of custom home work for him. So that's where that's kind of the path. after about 10 years working for my brother, that's when I started my own company. So I've been doing this with on my own for about three years. but yeah that's where that's where I'm at now. So now we're Co's design and build and and building custom homes. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, I love it. Yeah. It's it's a it's a common it it's a it's a common theme, right? Where you don't you like you don't just wake up one morning and like, hey, I wanna go build custom homes for for people. There's kind of this evolution where you know you start somewhere, you can start with f framing, right? You can you can start in really anything in the trades and maybe you like you said, you worked with your dad and then you kind of grew into it and now you started your own your own business, right?
Jason Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean ultimately it's funny, right? I mean, I think any builder out there would realize this. You have you have you can come from two different directions. You can be like, I wanna I wanna build a business and then you decide to build a a construction business. Or or you you actually are in it and then you're like, I wanna start my own company. And I think that's usually where builders are coming from right they're they're not usually coming from the business background so that's the that ends up always being the the struggle is is you're you're so many good builders out there but in terms of learning the business side that's you know whether it's marketing or whether it's kind of any element within the business side it's it's getting your hands into that and doing it properly right so
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, and I mean there's a million that's that's the thing as a builder is there's a million things going on and you kinda have to learn everything. How do you I mean, how did you learn and be able to obviously there's the doing of the work, there's the actual the day to day, but then there's all the strategy, there's the sales, there's the marketing, there's now AI and here's another thing we have to go learn, right? How do you manage that? Like how do you deal with clients and at the same time y now like I give you an example with AI. I'm sure there's you you know, everyone's raving about it. How are you kinda keeping up with all that?
Jason Craig: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's a it's a struggle to be honest. It's a lot of work, it's a lot. But I I I find that I mean okay, I mean you can give this example, right? As builders, we're not expected to be able to learn know how to plumb, know how to do electrical, know how to do all of those elements, right? and it's funny because when we get into the business side, usually we find ourselves doing everything. And and to be honest, most of us aren't actually from a business background, right? and so you kind of gotta ask yourself, like, why are you doing all of these business for example, maybe you're doing your own bookkeeping or your own it's like why are you doing that yourself? and in some ways you you actually I I do anyways, I treat my business like like I'm building a house. And I think, look, I I mean that's why I hired you. I thought, look, like I don't really I understand the basics of marketing. I understand the four Ps. I I went to business school. I I understand the big picture, but actually the nitty-gritty of actually going and mar like presenting yourself to the world as a builder. I'm not really sure how to go about that. And there's other if it I mean just for that as an example, it's like there's other people that you can talk to and you can do your research and find someone that actually is a good fit for you, right? so whether that's marketing or bookkeeping or yeah, I mean if for example, like if you come from a carpentry background, you're wanting to start a a a building company it's like well do you know anything about schedule like how schedules actually work and how they function
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: so either you need to go to school or you need to hire someone that that actually like a a a project manager a site supervisor that knows how to run those tools and can teach you how to do it right otherwise there's just you can do it yourself and you can figure it out yourself if you're you know that type of person but in a lot of cases it's like there's people that already know And now like you said, with AI, you know, there is a lot of research and and and work that you can do using AI as well, which has been I mean, that's a whole other conversation, but it's been very helpful.
Eric Mollerup: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially I think that there's I mean, there's debate about this, but when you try and do everything, you can't really be the best at each different department, right? Like bookkeeping, for example, in in in my eyes is something that must be outsourced at almost any level. Whereas certain things like obviously the sales side, marketing side, those are things that you can learn. And they're things that probably can be learned with more ease than something highly, highly technical. But because like marketing, for example, at the end of the day, it's just how do we get how do we get more eyeballs on our brand? And the thing that we see sometimes is when you know, I I speak to many builders, unfortunately, the the builders that win a lot of the work. Are not always the best builders. They're just they're the they're the the loudest. they're the builders that everyone knows who they are. And I think that's something that like we see a lot of and and I hear a lot of is there can be a a company that has been building for 30 years, they have excellent reputation, you know, but nobody knows who they are. I mean you can have a builder who is maybe younger, they're much more in tune with AI and and and tech and marketing and whatnot. And they're actually winning over the builder who's got 30 years experience on them simply because they are more tech savvy, marketing savvy, AI savvy, right? So I mean for you given that you started, you know, clearly you're you're you're a young guy, right? We're both young guys. We're fresh. We we're probably more in tune with tech than some of these maybe call it older builders that have been around for longer. Do you find that that you can you can kinda use that to your advantage with with some of what you do. We'll talk about f you know your fixed price based model in a minute here, but is that something that you've been able to kind of capitalize on being in a in a kinda
Jason Craig: Yeah, I mean it's
Eric Mollerup: yeah
Jason Craig: it's kind of one of our company's strengths is being co like I growing up that other than building houses, I was actually a bit of a nerd and and building computers. So so I I kind of have always been a bit of a tech techie kid. so when it comes to like I mean this is something I would recommend for any builder out there, right? It's like You're you're always kind of watching how things are happening within your company. for example, I we have we use you know, this is a non-paid plug, right? But we use Job Tread, which is a great project management software. and it has you know, if you've learned how to use you learn how to use Gantt charts, for example, which is for those that don't know, that's like a scheduling kind of an industry standard scheduling type software. now you can just use it at a very base level, but I I guess what I'm saying is first you learn how to use the thing, then you how to you you learn how to use the thing well, and then you learn to use the thing exceptionally well. to where, you know, people aren't even you've kind of like added your own wings to the tool so that it's it's So for example, with our Gantt charts, we we have all of the bars in there are all colorized. So it's like if a task hasn't been booked, it's one color. If it's been booked, it's another color. If it's complete, it's another color. and and there's a little legend showing all of that. So when and our clients can look at our our our budget, right? So or not our budget, our schedule. So so that little that Gantt chart there, it's doing multiple things. It's Making my guys on site more organized. They know what's going on. I know what's going on. The client knows what's going on. The trades know what's going on, right? So it it creates visibility throughout the company and throughout the whole project and everybody involved. All the stakeholders are know what's going on, right? So it's yeah, I mean, I guess your question was do you what was it? Do you find like tech like Being tech savvy or like having like integrating that type of stuff into your work gives you an advantage. And absolutely, I mean, I think that I mean I've worked for again, I worked for my dad who he ran everything on Excel. Like his whole his all of his so that's that's fine. but when it takes you, when it takes one person you know, three days to update their schedule. but it takes another, you know, 15 minutes and the schedule's updated. And now actually, this is like on a side note, but now, like, for example, job trade, you can actually integrate Claude or ChatGPT right into it. So you can actually say you can chat with ChatGPT just like plain conversation and just say, this job I need The tile adjusted to this date, this job, I need that adjusted here, and you're watching everything shift on your screen, right? So very we're in a really interesting time and I feel like now more than ever we're gonna see technology in general just shift. make it much more competitive and much more difficult for those that aren't using those tools. so
Eric Mollerup: Agreed. Yeah, and I and I mean it gives you such a advantage, not just in like internally to be able to be efficient with your team and have everyone kinda y you know, be be integrated with these tools, but more importantly for the client, because you can get things done better for them, more efficient, faster, down to the very color, like and again, non-paid plug with job tread, but having even a color Like tiny little things like that, they make a massive difference for the client. Do you think that the builders who are not really integrating these whatever call it a tool, call it a system, call it a software, do you think that it is going to kind of weed out some builders that are stuck in prehistoric systems, or do you think that it's not necessarily
Jason Craig: You know what? I mean, I don't like to be I honestly don't like to be critical of of the old way of doing it, right? I I think that I think a beautiful home can be built using just pen and paper, to be honest. I I actually like they did it. I mean, look, like there's the pyramids were weren't built with a computer, right? and like you go over to Europe and none of that was done with the there were no computers involved. It was beautiful. Now we are in a very fast-paced, fast moving market now where clients expect quick answers. and you know, some things do take time, and you you also need to have that in the back of your mind that like we can't just rush into things no matter how fast the technology is. So I want to preface it with that, right? But I do think that for particularly on things that for example, s putting a permit package together. Well, You know, we're very close to if you know how to use AI properly and you take the plans and you take the permit forms that the city gives you and you press one button, it fills out the form. It you know, it does all of this stuff, and your permit package just it it it was it's done in 10 minutes, and now you're just looking over it, making sure it's correct, right? and so if you have a builder that takes two weeks to put the permit submission together. And you have one that does it in fifteen minutes, it's like, well, I you know, that that's That isn't affecting the quality of the build. and actually it's funny because that 15-minute permit submission might be more comprehensive than the two-week long submission, right? so it's it's very interesting. We're in a very interesting time. I think that to answer your question, I I don't know if the quality of the builds are it's help helping increase the quality of the build, but the quality of the service to customers. And the speed at which answers can be given is increasing. we just we just need to be very you need to be very cautious when using AI and making sure that like you're not just spitting out information. It all needs to be vetted, right? so I I I I I like to be very cautious with any use of AI. But it's funny though, right? Like if you're gonna type something up, or if you get AI to type it up. And then you're going over it and editing it, there isn't much of a difference, right? it's just that it might actually catch a few things that you didn't think about. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, and and that's that's such a clear thing to point out. sorry, important thing to point out. It's important to distinguish like AI is not a replacement for some of these things. It's just a tool to get it done faster. And that's why, you know, when people say that AI is coming to replace this and this and this, like yes, there are certain roles that it is going to replace, but in the building industry, you need a human you need a set of human eyes. To look at like the permit package you just talked about, for example. I I would not, if I was a builder, and I'm not a builder, but I would not let AI handle that and then send it off without looking at it with my eyes. I I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. and Jason, one thing I want to play devil's advocate on, would wouldn't you say that like yes, maybe the build wouldn't be changed by, you know, like the quality of the build wouldn't be changed by these tools, but I'd argue that the build is also the experience that the client is getting. And I think clients are, like you said, becoming increasingly more demanding with that experience. And so I mean, what would you say? It what what's more important, right? Like it if
Jason Craig: No, yeah, yeah. So no, that's a good point. And and and I don't want to I I guess when you said I think you said quality of build at the beginning, but the the quality of the experience, yeah, I mean, it'll be hands down a hundred times better having these systems in place, right? you you can't if someone has everything written down on paper and they just got their notepad and everything's in their brain, and And their custom they have maybe they have, you know, two builds going on. Well, let's put them to ten builds going on. Well, it's just not possible to be contacting all of those people, right? it you're gonna be there's gonna be gaps, the customers are gonna be wondering what's going on. And so yeah, I mean it it's it's a good way to put it, Eric. I I think that no, I I mean having all of these system systems in place is absolutely gonna make a better experience. and the outcome, you're going you you have a better chance at catching all of the little things when you aren't overwhelmed. try to keep everything in your brain, right? So So that and that's what the really what these tools are for and what they help us with is is Ultimately the yeah, is is that the client experience is better. So yeah.
Eric Mollerup: On on the on the topic of client experience, you know, and and shifting gears just slightly, you are a very unique builder in that you take a fixed price approach in a lot of your work. And I and again, I don't know if it's a hundred percent of your work, so maybe that's something you can clarify for me, but it's it's the majority of your work. And we kind of have this battle of builders that swear by fixed price. And then we have the builders who are like absolutely not. We are never ever even thinking about fixed price. And and they still do well for themselves. I mean, they still they still bring on clients, and clients are okay with with change orders and and whatnot. But how how do you make it work? And and tell me a little bit about why it's something you've even implemented in into Co.'s design and build.
Jason Craig: Yeah, it's an I actually like that we're able to talk about this here because it's I'm a little bit of a different I have a different opinion, I think, than a lot of builders out there because I think that you've got your your fixed price on one side and your cost plus on the other. and if you talk to a builder in either camp, they're like they're they are very strong about their opinion on either side. I think I would kind of want to explain it a little bit differently, which is that both can work. it's just so for let's talk about cost plus. so for those that don't know, cost plus is your your if if you're the client and the customer or the builder is building for you, they charge you the cost cost of everything, and then they charge a percentage on top. and then they also charge for. any labor and any anything associated with the build what's agreed upon. So that that type of of work, for example, you have a client that doesn't really want to define the scope. They're like, I just want to start building. It's like, okay, well, but I, you know, it's from my opinion, it's really important to kind of define what we're planning on building here. It's like, no, like let's just Let's get the let's get the the main structure figured out and then let's go go let get going. Okay. Well, you can't do a fixed price contract if the c that's the client that you're working with and that's what they want to do. because maybe they want to look at it more of an ar from an artsy perspective and and just like kind of like see it as it goes and and make decisions like that. I don't again, I I don't wanna take that away from those types of people. It's it's it's a different way to go about it, but And ultimately, it can be more expensive to do it that way. So that that would be one knock against it, right? but there also can be savings. So it's anyways, I I don't I'm not gonna be the guy that's that's giving you a hard opinion against cost plus because I I do think that there's a time and a place for it. And we've done cost plus in the past. But now all that to say, I think
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: the best client experience is fixed price. I have like I said, I've done cost plus, and when you go into a project and you say it's gonna cost eight hundred thousand dollars and by the end of the project it's nine a million one point one and or or even let's forget about in the project, in some cases for some Clients, they don't even know the price up front, right? When for some builders, they're not even, they're just kind of like, it'll be roughly around this number. so in fixed price, what it requires is it requires thought up front and all of the design to be done in order to fix the price, right? So what that does is now it the reason that that's So sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here. where was I? Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I guess that can be cut out. yeah, so so the reason that I like the the fixed price experience for a client is you decide on all of the materials, you decide on the design, everybody's on the same page. You know, we we try to have it as full of an understanding as to what's being built. And now once we start building. The customer just kind of watches the process unfold. and you know, maybe throughout the process there's something that they say, actually I don't really like the way that looks. they this they you know, they only realize then. And there could be a change order that comes along because you know, we had agreed upon something and they decided they didn't like it, but or they decide they want to add another room to the house. Okay, well, that's a that's a change of scope. So we're adding cost there. But Other than that, the only time we have a conversation about price is at the very beginning of the project. and it's amazing how how much stress when you're doing cost plus, you're talking about price every single day. talking about $10,000 here, $20,000 there. And it's a very exhausting experience for customers. and so that's one of the biggest. it's even for us, like so. I I'm I mean I'm working on a smaller little job right now for a customer that was wanting to have a bathroom reno. And that was exactly the experience. It's literally like we're just talking, hey, how's it going? it's looking great so far. It's looking just like I expected, right? and
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: and and that's all the conversation is. And then we just start talking about the weather and what they got going on in the weekend, right? and I I send them their schedule updates and it Essentially they're there because everything is so tightly organized, there isn't there isn't room for relationship breakdown. so it's anyways, it's a it's a beautiful experience, fixed price contracts. and so that alone, the experience for the client, in my opinion, is just better with fixed price contracts. So that that The long story short for me, that's why I go about it that way and that we've shifted everything from cost plus to fixed price. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah. Yeah, and I and again, like we spoke about experience earlier and I think it's so important because that's also what they're paying for, regardless of how of of you know what kind of agreement it is, they're paying for experience and that's that's something that I think is sometimes missed in the industry. you know, just to be frank, is it's not just the final product. It's not just, here's your home, right? It's everything that happens before that. It's the communication, like you said, the updates, almost becoming friends with the client and having a very smooth process. And part of that I think is linked to the fixed price way of doing things. I'm curious from a technical standpoint, let's say that I So you y three b three years ago is when you officially started Co's design and build, right? S so did you guys start with I mean did you go straight into like when you started, hey, we wanna do fixed price or did you kind of t test both and then fixed price you landed on after some time?
Jason Craig: No, we so the first job that we did for for this company was fixed price. so we have done we still will do cost plus if that's what the customer wants. and there is a way to do that that I I mean we're actually I'm excellent at doing cost plus because actually that's what I spent a long time doing with my brother's company. It's that said, when I started my own company, I had decided that I I had seen some some bad experiences for myself working with clients as well as for the client where yeah like costs come up that they didn't expect or you know because because of the fact that the you aren't fixing the design up front or like getting the design figured out as clearly. There's just more opportunity for unknowns to catch you off, right? So yeah, I mean essentially I I guess there'd be, you know, roughly three things that I was trying to fix by doing fixed price. One was just handing the customer a price that they were gonna pay. And that's really Like that's peace of mind for the client, right? the other one is that they the outcome is very clear as well, right? Which knowing that okay, we've got we've got s we've got all the drawings here, we've got elevations of all the cabinets, we've got design sheets of all the materials going in the house. Seeing all of that up front before you getting started, rather than like kind of picking it as you go, it it it's caught it it makes it so that you're not having you you know how it all goes together. So so it really does still it creates a good experience and a good outcome. So it really does c it creates a better outcome. Because for example, let's just say that you've done you've you've you've got your laundry room sink all organized. You've you've actually already picked the laundry room sink mid job. And the the faucet still hasn't been picked yet, right? now however the design got done, it wasn't really just wasn't really thought about. It was kind of just thought, we'll we'll pick a faucet eventually. And maybe even in that circumstance, the customer sends drops a faucet off and says, you know what, I since it's cost plus, I'm just gonna drop a faucet off for you, and that should work, right? Anyways, the faucet shows up, it doesn't fit.
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha ha.
Jason Craig: The plumber had to we had to pay the plumber to put it in, right? But now the plumber has to take it out. and then, you know, you're you're you're getting where this goes, right? It's like whenever you're not planning, there's opportunities for rework. And that's a that's an issue. So I don't know if I went off the rails there with that explanation, but
Eric Mollerup: No, you couldn't have said it better. it's a great example. And I'm sure that there are many stories and many examples like that that are smaller and certainly much bigger, which, you know, hopefully hopefully builders don't have too many of those, but it does happen and it can turn into a nightmare, right? It can turn into a nightmare both for the builder and for the client as well. And that's
Jason Craig: Yeah. And it's the it's the builder's job to not because like someone that isn't a isn't a builder doesn't know what's gonna cause them headaches down the road, right? So for example, the the if if a client is saying that they want to pick materials themselves, I'm like, look, you can pick materials yourself, but what can happen is if you pick the materials yourself. you might not be thinking about how far how much space you need for that to fit. Or, you know, you might not be thinking about the the amount of the material that you need. You might order too little and it so so really it's like it's it is our job to educate our customers in you know directing them in a way that that they are going to have the best outcome, best experience, and it they're not wasting their time and money, right? so yeah, and it is interesting. I just had a call with a potential client this morning and she was like she she was we're just finishing up her phone call and I was just like, What's what's like kind of like the main thing, your your main thing that you're thinking about when picking a builder? She's like, you know, I did a reno like you know, a couple years ago or whatever, and she's like, it didn't turn out at all the way that I hoped it would. And so in my head, I'm like, like she clearly didn't have, you know, they didn't, they didn't l lay it out for her very well, right? They didn't actually have proper design done. They must not have. and it'd be interesting to chat more with her because I I imagine that they she didn't have a fixed price contract either. Or if she did, it wasn't, it didn't have the requirements, which is design all complete up front, right? So anyways, it's yeah, very interesting. So
Eric Mollerup: Walk me through your process on on educating clients that have absolutely no idea what fixed price is and how you how you explain it to them in a way where it really clicks for them and they can feel, wow, this might be a a a great builder to work with because this is what they do differently.
Jason Craig: Yeah, I mean, the way that I I go about it is is I kind of explain it in parts. So the most important thing to explain is that I can't give a fixed price. I'd say maybe better than this, but the way that a fixed price is put together is that you have all of the information to fix the price on. So The first thing that I explained to them is we got to do a preliminary design. and once we have that preliminary design put together, now we can build and that combined with discussing your budget, we can actually design around your budget. so the idea is that I mean internally we call it budget budget led design. That's that's what we'd call it internally in our company. the process towards the client, it's called value management. So the point is, is I wanna make sure that my customer is getting the best bang for their buck. you know, it's not that I want to give like a good deal, but no, it's like I wanna make sure that we're we're not wasting their time, that We're giving them the best experience they can. And the way that we do that is by getting a preliminary design together. And then once the the preliminary design is together, we can build a budget with allowances for all the different materials going into the place. Now we can take it from there, flesh out the preliminary design into a full design based on the budget we've discussed. and that happens, that's communication between myself, the designer, and the client kind of working together. And then from there, the designer also would be picking materials based on our allowances that we've we've set. So in the in when it's all said and done, all the way along as we're doing our preliminary design, as we're doing interior design. It's all with the budget in mind. Like you you're never, I'm never not thinking about the cost. that's the burden that we need to carry and make sure that we're hitting that number that the customer is is looking to hit. Right. So all that said, I actually right up front will will tell customers, hey, look, like, you know. I'm looking at if they have a preliminary design done. For example, I had a client just last week and they were they were wanting to spend three to four hundred thousand. I'm like, well, I'm looking at your prel preliminary design and and I've I've I've done some rough calculations and you're probably looking between five and six. And so I I just have to be honest, right? I have to say, look, this is where we're gonna be able to get you with our process. And and I would rather tell them that and they walk away than tell them that we're gonna do it for three to four. And then once we hand them the butt the quote, it's 600. It's like, no, they you can't do that. So that that's so
Eric Mollerup: Course not. Yeah.
Jason Craig: so and I'll even tell them just what I've told you now, right? Which is I'll just tell them straight up, like I don't want to give you a number that I can't stand behind. So and I I do think that I do I do think that some people don't have the time for that that method. so it isn't for everyone because like I think there are some people that just want to build their house yesterday. and what that takes is to not do any pre-planning, not really think about it, and to just like just build it as quick as you can and put it all the things together. And that's the experience if that's the experiencing they're or sorry, the experience they're wanting to have, I can try to convince them otherwise, but if if If if I can't get them to a place that they understand what the value in what we're doing, then they just aren't really the client for us, right? So
Eric Mollerup: How how yeah?
Jason Craig: Or to be honest, our service isn't the service for them. They d they don't really want our service. And that's and that's okay. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah. How how how does one change from cost plus to fixed price when all they've known and all they've been doing has been cost plus? I mean, what's what's in your opinion from a from a strategic standpoint, right? Let's say, tomorrow I wanna make the switch. Obviously it's gonna take more than a day, but what are the first few steps that I need to make?
Jason Craig: Well well, the first thing is what I actually just said, which is you need to you need to be able to say no to clients. So so you have a client that's like, you know, I wanna build this house yesterday and I wanna not decide on any design choices. I just wanna start building. I wanna get I just wanna get the rough floor plan together, get the permit documents in, and then we'll build. that's you know, If you're wanting to be a fixed price contractor, that's where you say, I'm sorry, but that's not our process. And ultimately that qualifies that customer out is someone that you're not going to be working with. and it's it's it's it's a difficult thing because you really do want to help people, right? and I I do think I do still try to kind of educate and say, look, like I know this is the way that you want to do it, but I think that over here, this is the better experience, this is the better outcome. But Often I think it's it's very hard to bring someone from that mindset to your own mindset. it's in my opinion, so so something we're doing in our marketing is you want the people that you're marketing to to click on your website because you're already telling them the way that you do it. And almost like the people that see my marketing, they're They they should actually like if they don't like if they want to do like really fast, quick and dirty build, they almost should look at my ad and be like, ew, like I don't I don't want that,
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha.
Jason Craig: right? And it's great, it's perfect because in some ways it's like I don't we don't want to waste each other's time, right? So I I do th like I would recommend anyone that's thinking about doing fixed price is like you should put your your stake in the sand and say this is the way that we do it. and put it, have it in your marketing and have everyone very aware that like, you know, the way that we do it might isn't for everybody, but we think it's the best way to do it, you know. and and and it's interesting because like again, like with with you, I've been starting to s with the marketing that's been coming through, the the clients coming through our marketing. I'm starting to see clients that message me on Instagram or on that had called me through. And said, they we found you on social media. And I asked her, I was like what made you call us? And she said, Well, I just I just want to know. I I want there to be as much certainty as possible in the building process. and I was like, perfect, that's exactly what we do. We can't promise 100% certainty, but we will maximize certainty for you. and There are a lot of people out there that are looking for that. that's that's your client, right? So that's the first thing is just fully shifting your mindset from you know, all I I can help everybody to know you you can help the clients that are going to thrive in your system. That's those are the clients you can help. And then the other part is that you really do need to have a Design team and estimating system that can actually back up what you're talking about. if you can't, if you are not able to quantify the materials it takes to build a house to figure out how much when you're digging up that excavation, how much material is gonna be sent out and and you don't know how to tell if the materi the ground is good or bad, or whether you're gonna have to send it, it's gonna cost you. two times than you normally pay to send it off. If you can't figure that out, I would not recommend being a cost or a fixed price builder. because it's gonna kill you, absolutely crush you. So that's where I mean for me it's great because I like we pride ourselves in being able to do that and taking on that risk. but I if I were The first thing that would probably be the first thing I'd I'd figure out if if I were a builder that was wanting to do fixed prices, like, okay, I gotta dial in my estimating. And there's a lot of ways to do that. comb both two things or multiple things, one being getting the right software that actually will help you with that. So for example, well job tread has takeoff software in it. So I can actually like go onto the the foundation, I can s I can go through and like get a calculation of how much concrete is actually going to the foundation. I can do a count on on every single light fixture, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? And so if you're quantifying all that and you have a s a system to do it, yeah, it's it's good. So and and that's actually I mean earlier I had talked about fixed price and cost plus what would whether the one was right or the other. And again, not to like argue against myself. But
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: but like I do think that there are builders out there that shouldn't be fixed price contractors. because it's actually not honest to say we can be fixed price when like potentially you're putting yourself out of business mid build, right? because you actually haven't done the calculations that need to be done prior to the job starting. Right. So anyways, yeah.
Eric Mollerup: So two two main points, right? So t two main points is number one, saying no to clients that should be said no to, right? Not bringing on everybody and and making it very public on your website, on your marketing, on your social media, that this is what we do and being upfront with with numbers and pricing when you initially speak to that client. That's number one. And then number two, like you said, is having the systems and infrastructure to actually be able to to to not do napkin math essentially is what I'm saying, but to have a good system like you guys do to be able to meet those numbers and look at things holistically as opposed to kind of piecing it together, right?
Jason Craig: Yeah, no, exactly. No, you got it. So it's it definitely it's there there's probably you know, I this is me just talking about it. there's probably more to it than that. But those are the two big things, right? if I if I were talking to a builder at the pub with a beer, that that's probably what I'd what I would recommend to him, right? Figure those two things out. but pri primarily before anything, it really is getting your estimating dialed. 'Cause even if you you know, you do get a few clients here and there and you're doing fixed price, at least your your product, what you're providing them is gonna work, right? So but yeah.
Eric Mollerup: That's that's builders and beer. I like that name for for a show, for
Jason Craig: Yeah.
Eric Mollerup: a podcast. We might have to rebrand now, Jason.
Jason Craig: Yeah.
Eric Mollerup: yeah, I mean one one point I want to make going back to what you said about helping clients and it being sometimes hard to to face a client and look them in the eye and say, This is not going to work for you, is you are still helping them by doing that because there there's there are some builders. Who will just take on any kind of work that they can get. And that is not actually helping the client when later you know you might run into issues. So, in my opinion, saying no to a client and educating them and tell them that we're just way off here, the numbers are just simply way too far off. I'd say that is helping the client because that gives them education, that gives them full transparency and honesty to then be able to take that information and either readjust in their mind, hey, maybe we need to rework this. Maybe we need to maybe now's not the right time to build a home or remodel our home. Maybe we need to revisit this in a couple years when things make more sense and it aligns better for us. But I think that that education is so important and being up front and not maneuvering that initial call with the client to be able to d scratch, you know, the be on that fine line of yeah, we could take on that project, we could make it work when in reality, you know, there's no way that this will work. because at the end of the day that that's not helping the client, right? That's that's inevitably
Jason Craig: No.
Eric Mollerup: causing issues later down the line.
Jason Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the one thing you can do, and I think I I already used the term value management. there you can take them down that path, which is like you can say, look, you're wanting to, you're wanting to do this renovation for for 300 grand. Right now, what you're telling me you want to do, I've I've I've run the rough numbers on it, you're between five and six. What if, you know, what if we took off this portion over here? It what it how what is, you know, now you start to talk about like what's important to you, right? you can have that conversation, you know. I also want to be careful because like, you know, they a client might have ha have like a vision for what they're looking for, specific things that they need. And and so I just try to figure out what those things are and if we can still provide A project for them that's going to satisfy what they're looking for by adjusting the design or doing it in a way I'm told I'm all board on board for that, right? but I'm it if if there is a design in front of me that they're asked they're saying this is absolutely a hundred percent that we need to do, no, I'll I'll say no. Cause it it's it is for their best interest, right? I I don't have any interest in saying. It's gonna cost you three hundred grand and then just I don't know, f weasling my way to getting my money. You know, I don't know.
Eric Mollerup: Of course. Of course. That what you said right there is sales one on one with finding out what actually is important to them and digging into that because that tells you a lot. And I think that it it's not always good to turn a client down right away if the numbers seem like they don't align, because you can still find a way to make it work for them and for you where you like you said, you can remove something, you can take something out, you can replace something, you can come up with some ideas, as opposed to just this is an excellent client, we take them on board, or no, we definitely don't want to do business with this client. There's a way to sometimes meet in the middle. And I think that really talented builders with a really talented and solid sales process and that's a whole other conversation we'll Jason we'll have to have you back on here but That sales process and finding out what's important to them will tell you a lot. And sometimes that conversation can can completely change the numbers. because maybe they overestimated some things. Maybe they underestimated some things, right? Yeah.
Jason Craig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like you might look at their design and and they thought they needed a a 20 foot by 20 foot space for a bedroom. It's like, well, you know, what if what if we adjusted it like this and we put it, we now have a 14 by 14 foot space and you know we're saving that you'd be you'd be saving, you know, 30 grand there or whatever by just shifting that. yeah, and there there there are conversations like that to be had. And and I I do so You know, I I don't want to go too far down the road of of saying like you can't work with me if you know if you don't have but that that's more if the design that conversation often happens when someone brings a design to you and they've already got it done, right? and I mean there's a whole other conversation with that. I don't know how much time we have here, but that that's that's one of the big processes. That we pride ourselves in and that we, I mean, really want the whole industry to kind of be moving towards, which is let's stop designing stuff that the customer can't build. So what I said is, let's stop designing stuff that
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: the customer can't build. Right? Like it's it's it it happens all the time. I I met with a designer last week from Vancouver. and And I I had met with her and we talked and and she ended up sending me an email afterwards. And she I I guess she had to reminisce about it after, but she's like, you know what? Like after we had had our conversation, she's like, I was thinking about all the times that we had designed for the client because the client was just telling us what to do. And then the builder came and asked us, or we got a builder to price it, and it was, you know. Three times what the customer was wanting to pay. Right.
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha.
Jason Craig: So that's, I mean, and that goes back to the budget-led design discussion, right? slash value management, where yeah, it's just so in let's as an industry, we need to be Bringing clients, you shouldn't be designing them something and and wasting all of this time and money on something that's not buildable because it just doesn't align with the budget. That's the sh long story short of it.
Eric Mollerup: Absolutely. Jason, so much knowledge, so much it's it's impressive given that you know you're three years into Co's design and build. Obviously, you've been in the business for way longer than that. But I think it's it's it's it's impressive to see that you guys are implementing so many of these things. You're staying on top of everything we spoke about with with the AI, with the permitting, job tread, all of these things. And great great conversation, great having you on. We're gonna have to have you on for a whole other topic 'cause like I said, the sales process is something else that you guys do very in a very unique way that we didn't even talk about today, but we'll have to have you on for for another episode at some point.
Jason Craig: Yeah man. Anytime. Thanks for thanks for having me. hopefully hopefully there were a couple nuggets in there for you guys. So all right. Thanks a lot.
Eric Mollerup: Tons of nuggets. Thanks, Jason. Thanks so much. Thanks.
Eric Mollerup: All right, everyone, welcome back to the Build Hour podcast. I'm super thrilled, have a very special guest on here with us today, Jason Craig, owner of Co's Design and Build. Jason, you're located in Pitt Meadows, British Columbia. So, you know, I I always love to understand everyone's backstory a little bit before we get into the nitty-gritty. how'd you get into Custom home building. How did that happen?
Jason Craig: Yeah, thank thanks for for having me on, Eric. I really appreciate it. appreciate the opportunity to be on here speaking to all the other builders out there. yeah, how did I how did I get into it? I started, I mean, I've been doing this since I was a kid, to be honest. So Like grade seven, I was working, my my dad had me on site for a week and I was working on foundations. I I lasted about a week. and then that that was my first taste of construction. but I always really liked the just seeing things go together. That's always been something that's been interesting to me. and that's really what building is is is kind of building Building something from almost nothing, right? So yeah, grade seven. And then I I graduated high school and then started working for my dad's company. worked for him for about 10 years or so. and then during that time I did my business degree. So I kind of got a bit of business acumen while I was doing the construction thing. yeah, and and during that time working for my dad, I I I I was doing a lot of hands-on stuff initially. So framing and then site supervision. Then I when I about at the end of that time with him, I started my brother started a company. I worked for him for 10 years. working for my dad, we mostly did development. So we built, you know, 50 houses at a time. and so that really learned a lot there kind of just on all fronts. and then when I joined my brother, I I took on a project management role and and we were doing a lot of custom home work for him. So that's where that's kind of the path. after about 10 years working for my brother, that's when I started my own company. So I've been doing this with on my own for about three years. but yeah that's where that's where I'm at now. So now we're Co's design and build and and building custom homes. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, I love it. Yeah. It's it's a it's a common it it's a it's a common theme, right? Where you don't you like you don't just wake up one morning and like, hey, I wanna go build custom homes for for people. There's kind of this evolution where you know you start somewhere, you can start with f framing, right? You can you can start in really anything in the trades and maybe you like you said, you worked with your dad and then you kind of grew into it and now you started your own your own business, right?
Jason Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean ultimately it's funny, right? I mean, I think any builder out there would realize this. You have you have you can come from two different directions. You can be like, I wanna I wanna build a business and then you decide to build a a construction business. Or or you you actually are in it and then you're like, I wanna start my own company. And I think that's usually where builders are coming from right they're they're not usually coming from the business background so that's the that ends up always being the the struggle is is you're you're so many good builders out there but in terms of learning the business side that's you know whether it's marketing or whether it's kind of any element within the business side it's it's getting your hands into that and doing it properly right so
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, and I mean there's a million that's that's the thing as a builder is there's a million things going on and you kinda have to learn everything. How do you I mean, how did you learn and be able to obviously there's the doing of the work, there's the actual the day to day, but then there's all the strategy, there's the sales, there's the marketing, there's now AI and here's another thing we have to go learn, right? How do you manage that? Like how do you deal with clients and at the same time y now like I give you an example with AI. I'm sure there's you you know, everyone's raving about it. How are you kinda keeping up with all that?
Jason Craig: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's a it's a struggle to be honest. It's a lot of work, it's a lot. But I I I find that I mean okay, I mean you can give this example, right? As builders, we're not expected to be able to learn know how to plumb, know how to do electrical, know how to do all of those elements, right? and it's funny because when we get into the business side, usually we find ourselves doing everything. And and to be honest, most of us aren't actually from a business background, right? and so you kind of gotta ask yourself, like, why are you doing all of these business for example, maybe you're doing your own bookkeeping or your own it's like why are you doing that yourself? and in some ways you you actually I I do anyways, I treat my business like like I'm building a house. And I think, look, I I mean that's why I hired you. I thought, look, like I don't really I understand the basics of marketing. I understand the four Ps. I I went to business school. I I understand the big picture, but actually the nitty-gritty of actually going and mar like presenting yourself to the world as a builder. I'm not really sure how to go about that. And there's other if it I mean just for that as an example, it's like there's other people that you can talk to and you can do your research and find someone that actually is a good fit for you, right? so whether that's marketing or bookkeeping or yeah, I mean if for example, like if you come from a carpentry background, you're wanting to start a a a building company it's like well do you know anything about schedule like how schedules actually work and how they function
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: so either you need to go to school or you need to hire someone that that actually like a a a project manager a site supervisor that knows how to run those tools and can teach you how to do it right otherwise there's just you can do it yourself and you can figure it out yourself if you're you know that type of person but in a lot of cases it's like there's people that already know And now like you said, with AI, you know, there is a lot of research and and and work that you can do using AI as well, which has been I mean, that's a whole other conversation, but it's been very helpful.
Eric Mollerup: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially I think that there's I mean, there's debate about this, but when you try and do everything, you can't really be the best at each different department, right? Like bookkeeping, for example, in in in my eyes is something that must be outsourced at almost any level. Whereas certain things like obviously the sales side, marketing side, those are things that you can learn. And they're things that probably can be learned with more ease than something highly, highly technical. But because like marketing, for example, at the end of the day, it's just how do we get how do we get more eyeballs on our brand? And the thing that we see sometimes is when you know, I I speak to many builders, unfortunately, the the builders that win a lot of the work. Are not always the best builders. They're just they're the they're the the loudest. they're the builders that everyone knows who they are. And I think that's something that like we see a lot of and and I hear a lot of is there can be a a company that has been building for 30 years, they have excellent reputation, you know, but nobody knows who they are. I mean you can have a builder who is maybe younger, they're much more in tune with AI and and and tech and marketing and whatnot. And they're actually winning over the builder who's got 30 years experience on them simply because they are more tech savvy, marketing savvy, AI savvy, right? So I mean for you given that you started, you know, clearly you're you're you're a young guy, right? We're both young guys. We're fresh. We we're probably more in tune with tech than some of these maybe call it older builders that have been around for longer. Do you find that that you can you can kinda use that to your advantage with with some of what you do. We'll talk about f you know your fixed price based model in a minute here, but is that something that you've been able to kind of capitalize on being in a in a kinda
Jason Craig: Yeah, I mean it's
Eric Mollerup: yeah
Jason Craig: it's kind of one of our company's strengths is being co like I growing up that other than building houses, I was actually a bit of a nerd and and building computers. So so I I kind of have always been a bit of a tech techie kid. so when it comes to like I mean this is something I would recommend for any builder out there, right? It's like You're you're always kind of watching how things are happening within your company. for example, I we have we use you know, this is a non-paid plug, right? But we use Job Tread, which is a great project management software. and it has you know, if you've learned how to use you learn how to use Gantt charts, for example, which is for those that don't know, that's like a scheduling kind of an industry standard scheduling type software. now you can just use it at a very base level, but I I guess what I'm saying is first you learn how to use the thing, then you how to you you learn how to use the thing well, and then you learn to use the thing exceptionally well. to where, you know, people aren't even you've kind of like added your own wings to the tool so that it's it's So for example, with our Gantt charts, we we have all of the bars in there are all colorized. So it's like if a task hasn't been booked, it's one color. If it's been booked, it's another color. If it's complete, it's another color. and and there's a little legend showing all of that. So when and our clients can look at our our our budget, right? So or not our budget, our schedule. So so that little that Gantt chart there, it's doing multiple things. It's Making my guys on site more organized. They know what's going on. I know what's going on. The client knows what's going on. The trades know what's going on, right? So it it creates visibility throughout the company and throughout the whole project and everybody involved. All the stakeholders are know what's going on, right? So it's yeah, I mean, I guess your question was do you what was it? Do you find like tech like Being tech savvy or like having like integrating that type of stuff into your work gives you an advantage. And absolutely, I mean, I think that I mean I've worked for again, I worked for my dad who he ran everything on Excel. Like his whole his all of his so that's that's fine. but when it takes you, when it takes one person you know, three days to update their schedule. but it takes another, you know, 15 minutes and the schedule's updated. And now actually, this is like on a side note, but now, like, for example, job trade, you can actually integrate Claude or ChatGPT right into it. So you can actually say you can chat with ChatGPT just like plain conversation and just say, this job I need The tile adjusted to this date, this job, I need that adjusted here, and you're watching everything shift on your screen, right? So very we're in a really interesting time and I feel like now more than ever we're gonna see technology in general just shift. make it much more competitive and much more difficult for those that aren't using those tools. so
Eric Mollerup: Agreed. Yeah, and I and I mean it gives you such a advantage, not just in like internally to be able to be efficient with your team and have everyone kinda y you know, be be integrated with these tools, but more importantly for the client, because you can get things done better for them, more efficient, faster, down to the very color, like and again, non-paid plug with job tread, but having even a color Like tiny little things like that, they make a massive difference for the client. Do you think that the builders who are not really integrating these whatever call it a tool, call it a system, call it a software, do you think that it is going to kind of weed out some builders that are stuck in prehistoric systems, or do you think that it's not necessarily
Jason Craig: You know what? I mean, I don't like to be I honestly don't like to be critical of of the old way of doing it, right? I I think that I think a beautiful home can be built using just pen and paper, to be honest. I I actually like they did it. I mean, look, like there's the pyramids were weren't built with a computer, right? and like you go over to Europe and none of that was done with the there were no computers involved. It was beautiful. Now we are in a very fast-paced, fast moving market now where clients expect quick answers. and you know, some things do take time, and you you also need to have that in the back of your mind that like we can't just rush into things no matter how fast the technology is. So I want to preface it with that, right? But I do think that for particularly on things that for example, s putting a permit package together. Well, You know, we're very close to if you know how to use AI properly and you take the plans and you take the permit forms that the city gives you and you press one button, it fills out the form. It you know, it does all of this stuff, and your permit package just it it it was it's done in 10 minutes, and now you're just looking over it, making sure it's correct, right? and so if you have a builder that takes two weeks to put the permit submission together. And you have one that does it in fifteen minutes, it's like, well, I you know, that that's That isn't affecting the quality of the build. and actually it's funny because that 15-minute permit submission might be more comprehensive than the two-week long submission, right? so it's it's very interesting. We're in a very interesting time. I think that to answer your question, I I don't know if the quality of the builds are it's help helping increase the quality of the build, but the quality of the service to customers. And the speed at which answers can be given is increasing. we just we just need to be very you need to be very cautious when using AI and making sure that like you're not just spitting out information. It all needs to be vetted, right? so I I I I I like to be very cautious with any use of AI. But it's funny though, right? Like if you're gonna type something up, or if you get AI to type it up. And then you're going over it and editing it, there isn't much of a difference, right? it's just that it might actually catch a few things that you didn't think about. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah, and and that's that's such a clear thing to point out. sorry, important thing to point out. It's important to distinguish like AI is not a replacement for some of these things. It's just a tool to get it done faster. And that's why, you know, when people say that AI is coming to replace this and this and this, like yes, there are certain roles that it is going to replace, but in the building industry, you need a human you need a set of human eyes. To look at like the permit package you just talked about, for example. I I would not, if I was a builder, and I'm not a builder, but I would not let AI handle that and then send it off without looking at it with my eyes. I I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. and Jason, one thing I want to play devil's advocate on, would wouldn't you say that like yes, maybe the build wouldn't be changed by, you know, like the quality of the build wouldn't be changed by these tools, but I'd argue that the build is also the experience that the client is getting. And I think clients are, like you said, becoming increasingly more demanding with that experience. And so I mean, what would you say? It what what's more important, right? Like it if
Jason Craig: No, yeah, yeah. So no, that's a good point. And and and I don't want to I I guess when you said I think you said quality of build at the beginning, but the the quality of the experience, yeah, I mean, it'll be hands down a hundred times better having these systems in place, right? you you can't if someone has everything written down on paper and they just got their notepad and everything's in their brain, and And their custom they have maybe they have, you know, two builds going on. Well, let's put them to ten builds going on. Well, it's just not possible to be contacting all of those people, right? it you're gonna be there's gonna be gaps, the customers are gonna be wondering what's going on. And so yeah, I mean it it's it's a good way to put it, Eric. I I think that no, I I mean having all of these system systems in place is absolutely gonna make a better experience. and the outcome, you're going you you have a better chance at catching all of the little things when you aren't overwhelmed. try to keep everything in your brain, right? So So that and that's what the really what these tools are for and what they help us with is is Ultimately the yeah, is is that the client experience is better. So yeah.
Eric Mollerup: On on the on the topic of client experience, you know, and and shifting gears just slightly, you are a very unique builder in that you take a fixed price approach in a lot of your work. And I and again, I don't know if it's a hundred percent of your work, so maybe that's something you can clarify for me, but it's it's the majority of your work. And we kind of have this battle of builders that swear by fixed price. And then we have the builders who are like absolutely not. We are never ever even thinking about fixed price. And and they still do well for themselves. I mean, they still they still bring on clients, and clients are okay with with change orders and and whatnot. But how how do you make it work? And and tell me a little bit about why it's something you've even implemented in into Co.'s design and build.
Jason Craig: Yeah, it's an I actually like that we're able to talk about this here because it's I'm a little bit of a different I have a different opinion, I think, than a lot of builders out there because I think that you've got your your fixed price on one side and your cost plus on the other. and if you talk to a builder in either camp, they're like they're they are very strong about their opinion on either side. I think I would kind of want to explain it a little bit differently, which is that both can work. it's just so for let's talk about cost plus. so for those that don't know, cost plus is your your if if you're the client and the customer or the builder is building for you, they charge you the cost cost of everything, and then they charge a percentage on top. and then they also charge for. any labor and any anything associated with the build what's agreed upon. So that that type of of work, for example, you have a client that doesn't really want to define the scope. They're like, I just want to start building. It's like, okay, well, but I, you know, it's from my opinion, it's really important to kind of define what we're planning on building here. It's like, no, like let's just Let's get the let's get the the main structure figured out and then let's go go let get going. Okay. Well, you can't do a fixed price contract if the c that's the client that you're working with and that's what they want to do. because maybe they want to look at it more of an ar from an artsy perspective and and just like kind of like see it as it goes and and make decisions like that. I don't again, I I don't wanna take that away from those types of people. It's it's it's a different way to go about it, but And ultimately, it can be more expensive to do it that way. So that that would be one knock against it, right? but there also can be savings. So it's anyways, I I don't I'm not gonna be the guy that's that's giving you a hard opinion against cost plus because I I do think that there's a time and a place for it. And we've done cost plus in the past. But now all that to say, I think
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: the best client experience is fixed price. I have like I said, I've done cost plus, and when you go into a project and you say it's gonna cost eight hundred thousand dollars and by the end of the project it's nine a million one point one and or or even let's forget about in the project, in some cases for some Clients, they don't even know the price up front, right? When for some builders, they're not even, they're just kind of like, it'll be roughly around this number. so in fixed price, what it requires is it requires thought up front and all of the design to be done in order to fix the price, right? So what that does is now it the reason that that's So sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here. where was I? Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I guess that can be cut out. yeah, so so the reason that I like the the fixed price experience for a client is you decide on all of the materials, you decide on the design, everybody's on the same page. You know, we we try to have it as full of an understanding as to what's being built. And now once we start building. The customer just kind of watches the process unfold. and you know, maybe throughout the process there's something that they say, actually I don't really like the way that looks. they this they you know, they only realize then. And there could be a change order that comes along because you know, we had agreed upon something and they decided they didn't like it, but or they decide they want to add another room to the house. Okay, well, that's a that's a change of scope. So we're adding cost there. But Other than that, the only time we have a conversation about price is at the very beginning of the project. and it's amazing how how much stress when you're doing cost plus, you're talking about price every single day. talking about $10,000 here, $20,000 there. And it's a very exhausting experience for customers. and so that's one of the biggest. it's even for us, like so. I I'm I mean I'm working on a smaller little job right now for a customer that was wanting to have a bathroom reno. And that was exactly the experience. It's literally like we're just talking, hey, how's it going? it's looking great so far. It's looking just like I expected, right? and
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: and and that's all the conversation is. And then we just start talking about the weather and what they got going on in the weekend, right? and I I send them their schedule updates and it Essentially they're there because everything is so tightly organized, there isn't there isn't room for relationship breakdown. so it's anyways, it's a it's a beautiful experience, fixed price contracts. and so that alone, the experience for the client, in my opinion, is just better with fixed price contracts. So that that The long story short for me, that's why I go about it that way and that we've shifted everything from cost plus to fixed price. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah. Yeah, and I and again, like we spoke about experience earlier and I think it's so important because that's also what they're paying for, regardless of how of of you know what kind of agreement it is, they're paying for experience and that's that's something that I think is sometimes missed in the industry. you know, just to be frank, is it's not just the final product. It's not just, here's your home, right? It's everything that happens before that. It's the communication, like you said, the updates, almost becoming friends with the client and having a very smooth process. And part of that I think is linked to the fixed price way of doing things. I'm curious from a technical standpoint, let's say that I So you y three b three years ago is when you officially started Co's design and build, right? S so did you guys start with I mean did you go straight into like when you started, hey, we wanna do fixed price or did you kind of t test both and then fixed price you landed on after some time?
Jason Craig: No, we so the first job that we did for for this company was fixed price. so we have done we still will do cost plus if that's what the customer wants. and there is a way to do that that I I mean we're actually I'm excellent at doing cost plus because actually that's what I spent a long time doing with my brother's company. It's that said, when I started my own company, I had decided that I I had seen some some bad experiences for myself working with clients as well as for the client where yeah like costs come up that they didn't expect or you know because because of the fact that the you aren't fixing the design up front or like getting the design figured out as clearly. There's just more opportunity for unknowns to catch you off, right? So yeah, I mean essentially I I guess there'd be, you know, roughly three things that I was trying to fix by doing fixed price. One was just handing the customer a price that they were gonna pay. And that's really Like that's peace of mind for the client, right? the other one is that they the outcome is very clear as well, right? Which knowing that okay, we've got we've got s we've got all the drawings here, we've got elevations of all the cabinets, we've got design sheets of all the materials going in the house. Seeing all of that up front before you getting started, rather than like kind of picking it as you go, it it it's caught it it makes it so that you're not having you you know how it all goes together. So so it really does still it creates a good experience and a good outcome. So it really does c it creates a better outcome. Because for example, let's just say that you've done you've you've you've got your laundry room sink all organized. You've you've actually already picked the laundry room sink mid job. And the the faucet still hasn't been picked yet, right? now however the design got done, it wasn't really just wasn't really thought about. It was kind of just thought, we'll we'll pick a faucet eventually. And maybe even in that circumstance, the customer sends drops a faucet off and says, you know what, I since it's cost plus, I'm just gonna drop a faucet off for you, and that should work, right? Anyways, the faucet shows up, it doesn't fit.
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha ha.
Jason Craig: The plumber had to we had to pay the plumber to put it in, right? But now the plumber has to take it out. and then, you know, you're you're you're getting where this goes, right? It's like whenever you're not planning, there's opportunities for rework. And that's a that's an issue. So I don't know if I went off the rails there with that explanation, but
Eric Mollerup: No, you couldn't have said it better. it's a great example. And I'm sure that there are many stories and many examples like that that are smaller and certainly much bigger, which, you know, hopefully hopefully builders don't have too many of those, but it does happen and it can turn into a nightmare, right? It can turn into a nightmare both for the builder and for the client as well. And that's
Jason Craig: Yeah. And it's the it's the builder's job to not because like someone that isn't a isn't a builder doesn't know what's gonna cause them headaches down the road, right? So for example, the the if if a client is saying that they want to pick materials themselves, I'm like, look, you can pick materials yourself, but what can happen is if you pick the materials yourself. you might not be thinking about how far how much space you need for that to fit. Or, you know, you might not be thinking about the the amount of the material that you need. You might order too little and it so so really it's like it's it is our job to educate our customers in you know directing them in a way that that they are going to have the best outcome, best experience, and it they're not wasting their time and money, right? so yeah, and it is interesting. I just had a call with a potential client this morning and she was like she she was we're just finishing up her phone call and I was just like, What's what's like kind of like the main thing, your your main thing that you're thinking about when picking a builder? She's like, you know, I did a reno like you know, a couple years ago or whatever, and she's like, it didn't turn out at all the way that I hoped it would. And so in my head, I'm like, like she clearly didn't have, you know, they didn't, they didn't l lay it out for her very well, right? They didn't actually have proper design done. They must not have. and it'd be interesting to chat more with her because I I imagine that they she didn't have a fixed price contract either. Or if she did, it wasn't, it didn't have the requirements, which is design all complete up front, right? So anyways, it's yeah, very interesting. So
Eric Mollerup: Walk me through your process on on educating clients that have absolutely no idea what fixed price is and how you how you explain it to them in a way where it really clicks for them and they can feel, wow, this might be a a a great builder to work with because this is what they do differently.
Jason Craig: Yeah, I mean, the way that I I go about it is is I kind of explain it in parts. So the most important thing to explain is that I can't give a fixed price. I'd say maybe better than this, but the way that a fixed price is put together is that you have all of the information to fix the price on. So The first thing that I explained to them is we got to do a preliminary design. and once we have that preliminary design put together, now we can build and that combined with discussing your budget, we can actually design around your budget. so the idea is that I mean internally we call it budget budget led design. That's that's what we'd call it internally in our company. the process towards the client, it's called value management. So the point is, is I wanna make sure that my customer is getting the best bang for their buck. you know, it's not that I want to give like a good deal, but no, it's like I wanna make sure that we're we're not wasting their time, that We're giving them the best experience they can. And the way that we do that is by getting a preliminary design together. And then once the the preliminary design is together, we can build a budget with allowances for all the different materials going into the place. Now we can take it from there, flesh out the preliminary design into a full design based on the budget we've discussed. and that happens, that's communication between myself, the designer, and the client kind of working together. And then from there, the designer also would be picking materials based on our allowances that we've we've set. So in the in when it's all said and done, all the way along as we're doing our preliminary design, as we're doing interior design. It's all with the budget in mind. Like you you're never, I'm never not thinking about the cost. that's the burden that we need to carry and make sure that we're hitting that number that the customer is is looking to hit. Right. So all that said, I actually right up front will will tell customers, hey, look, like, you know. I'm looking at if they have a preliminary design done. For example, I had a client just last week and they were they were wanting to spend three to four hundred thousand. I'm like, well, I'm looking at your prel preliminary design and and I've I've I've done some rough calculations and you're probably looking between five and six. And so I I just have to be honest, right? I have to say, look, this is where we're gonna be able to get you with our process. And and I would rather tell them that and they walk away than tell them that we're gonna do it for three to four. And then once we hand them the butt the quote, it's 600. It's like, no, they you can't do that. So that that's so
Eric Mollerup: Course not. Yeah.
Jason Craig: so and I'll even tell them just what I've told you now, right? Which is I'll just tell them straight up, like I don't want to give you a number that I can't stand behind. So and I I do think that I do I do think that some people don't have the time for that that method. so it isn't for everyone because like I think there are some people that just want to build their house yesterday. and what that takes is to not do any pre-planning, not really think about it, and to just like just build it as quick as you can and put it all the things together. And that's the experience if that's the experiencing they're or sorry, the experience they're wanting to have, I can try to convince them otherwise, but if if If if I can't get them to a place that they understand what the value in what we're doing, then they just aren't really the client for us, right? So
Eric Mollerup: How how yeah?
Jason Craig: Or to be honest, our service isn't the service for them. They d they don't really want our service. And that's and that's okay. So
Eric Mollerup: Yeah. How how how does one change from cost plus to fixed price when all they've known and all they've been doing has been cost plus? I mean, what's what's in your opinion from a from a strategic standpoint, right? Let's say, tomorrow I wanna make the switch. Obviously it's gonna take more than a day, but what are the first few steps that I need to make?
Jason Craig: Well well, the first thing is what I actually just said, which is you need to you need to be able to say no to clients. So so you have a client that's like, you know, I wanna build this house yesterday and I wanna not decide on any design choices. I just wanna start building. I wanna get I just wanna get the rough floor plan together, get the permit documents in, and then we'll build. that's you know, If you're wanting to be a fixed price contractor, that's where you say, I'm sorry, but that's not our process. And ultimately that qualifies that customer out is someone that you're not going to be working with. and it's it's it's it's a difficult thing because you really do want to help people, right? and I I do think I do still try to kind of educate and say, look, like I know this is the way that you want to do it, but I think that over here, this is the better experience, this is the better outcome. But Often I think it's it's very hard to bring someone from that mindset to your own mindset. it's in my opinion, so so something we're doing in our marketing is you want the people that you're marketing to to click on your website because you're already telling them the way that you do it. And almost like the people that see my marketing, they're They they should actually like if they don't like if they want to do like really fast, quick and dirty build, they almost should look at my ad and be like, ew, like I don't I don't want that,
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha.
Jason Craig: right? And it's great, it's perfect because in some ways it's like I don't we don't want to waste each other's time, right? So I I do th like I would recommend anyone that's thinking about doing fixed price is like you should put your your stake in the sand and say this is the way that we do it. and put it, have it in your marketing and have everyone very aware that like, you know, the way that we do it might isn't for everybody, but we think it's the best way to do it, you know. and and and it's interesting because like again, like with with you, I've been starting to s with the marketing that's been coming through, the the clients coming through our marketing. I'm starting to see clients that message me on Instagram or on that had called me through. And said, they we found you on social media. And I asked her, I was like what made you call us? And she said, Well, I just I just want to know. I I want there to be as much certainty as possible in the building process. and I was like, perfect, that's exactly what we do. We can't promise 100% certainty, but we will maximize certainty for you. and There are a lot of people out there that are looking for that. that's that's your client, right? So that's the first thing is just fully shifting your mindset from you know, all I I can help everybody to know you you can help the clients that are going to thrive in your system. That's those are the clients you can help. And then the other part is that you really do need to have a Design team and estimating system that can actually back up what you're talking about. if you can't, if you are not able to quantify the materials it takes to build a house to figure out how much when you're digging up that excavation, how much material is gonna be sent out and and you don't know how to tell if the materi the ground is good or bad, or whether you're gonna have to send it, it's gonna cost you. two times than you normally pay to send it off. If you can't figure that out, I would not recommend being a cost or a fixed price builder. because it's gonna kill you, absolutely crush you. So that's where I mean for me it's great because I like we pride ourselves in being able to do that and taking on that risk. but I if I were The first thing that would probably be the first thing I'd I'd figure out if if I were a builder that was wanting to do fixed prices, like, okay, I gotta dial in my estimating. And there's a lot of ways to do that. comb both two things or multiple things, one being getting the right software that actually will help you with that. So for example, well job tread has takeoff software in it. So I can actually like go onto the the foundation, I can s I can go through and like get a calculation of how much concrete is actually going to the foundation. I can do a count on on every single light fixture, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? And so if you're quantifying all that and you have a s a system to do it, yeah, it's it's good. So and and that's actually I mean earlier I had talked about fixed price and cost plus what would whether the one was right or the other. And again, not to like argue against myself. But
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: but like I do think that there are builders out there that shouldn't be fixed price contractors. because it's actually not honest to say we can be fixed price when like potentially you're putting yourself out of business mid build, right? because you actually haven't done the calculations that need to be done prior to the job starting. Right. So anyways, yeah.
Eric Mollerup: So two two main points, right? So t two main points is number one, saying no to clients that should be said no to, right? Not bringing on everybody and and making it very public on your website, on your marketing, on your social media, that this is what we do and being upfront with with numbers and pricing when you initially speak to that client. That's number one. And then number two, like you said, is having the systems and infrastructure to actually be able to to to not do napkin math essentially is what I'm saying, but to have a good system like you guys do to be able to meet those numbers and look at things holistically as opposed to kind of piecing it together, right?
Jason Craig: Yeah, no, exactly. No, you got it. So it's it definitely it's there there's probably you know, I this is me just talking about it. there's probably more to it than that. But those are the two big things, right? if I if I were talking to a builder at the pub with a beer, that that's probably what I'd what I would recommend to him, right? Figure those two things out. but pri primarily before anything, it really is getting your estimating dialed. 'Cause even if you you know, you do get a few clients here and there and you're doing fixed price, at least your your product, what you're providing them is gonna work, right? So but yeah.
Eric Mollerup: That's that's builders and beer. I like that name for for a show, for
Jason Craig: Yeah.
Eric Mollerup: a podcast. We might have to rebrand now, Jason.
Jason Craig: Yeah.
Eric Mollerup: yeah, I mean one one point I want to make going back to what you said about helping clients and it being sometimes hard to to face a client and look them in the eye and say, This is not going to work for you, is you are still helping them by doing that because there there's there are some builders. Who will just take on any kind of work that they can get. And that is not actually helping the client when later you know you might run into issues. So, in my opinion, saying no to a client and educating them and tell them that we're just way off here, the numbers are just simply way too far off. I'd say that is helping the client because that gives them education, that gives them full transparency and honesty to then be able to take that information and either readjust in their mind, hey, maybe we need to rework this. Maybe we need to maybe now's not the right time to build a home or remodel our home. Maybe we need to revisit this in a couple years when things make more sense and it aligns better for us. But I think that that education is so important and being up front and not maneuvering that initial call with the client to be able to d scratch, you know, the be on that fine line of yeah, we could take on that project, we could make it work when in reality, you know, there's no way that this will work. because at the end of the day that that's not helping the client, right? That's that's inevitably
Jason Craig: No.
Eric Mollerup: causing issues later down the line.
Jason Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, the one thing you can do, and I think I I already used the term value management. there you can take them down that path, which is like you can say, look, you're wanting to, you're wanting to do this renovation for for 300 grand. Right now, what you're telling me you want to do, I've I've I've run the rough numbers on it, you're between five and six. What if, you know, what if we took off this portion over here? It what it how what is, you know, now you start to talk about like what's important to you, right? you can have that conversation, you know. I also want to be careful because like, you know, they a client might have ha have like a vision for what they're looking for, specific things that they need. And and so I just try to figure out what those things are and if we can still provide A project for them that's going to satisfy what they're looking for by adjusting the design or doing it in a way I'm told I'm all board on board for that, right? but I'm it if if there is a design in front of me that they're asked they're saying this is absolutely a hundred percent that we need to do, no, I'll I'll say no. Cause it it's it is for their best interest, right? I I don't have any interest in saying. It's gonna cost you three hundred grand and then just I don't know, f weasling my way to getting my money. You know, I don't know.
Eric Mollerup: Of course. Of course. That what you said right there is sales one on one with finding out what actually is important to them and digging into that because that tells you a lot. And I think that it it's not always good to turn a client down right away if the numbers seem like they don't align, because you can still find a way to make it work for them and for you where you like you said, you can remove something, you can take something out, you can replace something, you can come up with some ideas, as opposed to just this is an excellent client, we take them on board, or no, we definitely don't want to do business with this client. There's a way to sometimes meet in the middle. And I think that really talented builders with a really talented and solid sales process and that's a whole other conversation we'll Jason we'll have to have you back on here but That sales process and finding out what's important to them will tell you a lot. And sometimes that conversation can can completely change the numbers. because maybe they overestimated some things. Maybe they underestimated some things, right? Yeah.
Jason Craig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like you might look at their design and and they thought they needed a a 20 foot by 20 foot space for a bedroom. It's like, well, you know, what if what if we adjusted it like this and we put it, we now have a 14 by 14 foot space and you know we're saving that you'd be you'd be saving, you know, 30 grand there or whatever by just shifting that. yeah, and there there there are conversations like that to be had. And and I I do so You know, I I don't want to go too far down the road of of saying like you can't work with me if you know if you don't have but that that's more if the design that conversation often happens when someone brings a design to you and they've already got it done, right? and I mean there's a whole other conversation with that. I don't know how much time we have here, but that that's that's one of the big processes. That we pride ourselves in and that we, I mean, really want the whole industry to kind of be moving towards, which is let's stop designing stuff that the customer can't build. So what I said is, let's stop designing stuff that
Eric Mollerup: Mm-hmm.
Jason Craig: the customer can't build. Right? Like it's it's it it happens all the time. I I met with a designer last week from Vancouver. and And I I had met with her and we talked and and she ended up sending me an email afterwards. And she I I guess she had to reminisce about it after, but she's like, you know what? Like after we had had our conversation, she's like, I was thinking about all the times that we had designed for the client because the client was just telling us what to do. And then the builder came and asked us, or we got a builder to price it, and it was, you know. Three times what the customer was wanting to pay. Right.
Eric Mollerup: Ha ha.
Jason Craig: So that's, I mean, and that goes back to the budget-led design discussion, right? slash value management, where yeah, it's just so in let's as an industry, we need to be Bringing clients, you shouldn't be designing them something and and wasting all of this time and money on something that's not buildable because it just doesn't align with the budget. That's the sh long story short of it.
Eric Mollerup: Absolutely. Jason, so much knowledge, so much it's it's impressive given that you know you're three years into Co's design and build. Obviously, you've been in the business for way longer than that. But I think it's it's it's it's impressive to see that you guys are implementing so many of these things. You're staying on top of everything we spoke about with with the AI, with the permitting, job tread, all of these things. And great great conversation, great having you on. We're gonna have to have you on for a whole other topic 'cause like I said, the sales process is something else that you guys do very in a very unique way that we didn't even talk about today, but we'll have to have you on for for another episode at some point.
Jason Craig: Yeah man. Anytime. Thanks for thanks for having me. hopefully hopefully there were a couple nuggets in there for you guys. So all right. Thanks a lot.
Eric Mollerup: Tons of nuggets. Thanks, Jason. Thanks so much. Thanks.
