WEBVTT
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Hey, you're listening to Taking Back Monday.
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My name is Alyssa Nolte. And I am Beu Dromiak.
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And we're going to get right into it. Bo, tell
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us, what is your origin story? My origin stories
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really began junior in high school when I started
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working in architecture. And being the nature
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of that practice of learning how to build and
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design, design -build environment, I started
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realizing there's this integration between construction
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and design, construction and architecture. that
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does this connected tissue there that is often
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kind of overlooked. There's barriers between
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it. And I started seeing really early age how
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the only way you can actually better the built
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environment was through an integrated team leadership
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where people are actually working together, not
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protecting territories. I started, it was weird
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because at an early age, I started seeing this
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more through experience like, wow, why is that
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conflict happening? And then throughout my career,
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I put myself in these positions where i can learn
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more i kinda got this. This appetite for wanting
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to know more more the macro pressures of leadership
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in our profession and so i started putting myself
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in taking job opportunities that would put me
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in more and more different environments that
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would allow me to see the different perspectives
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and by doing that i actually start broadening
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my perspectives which became. Ultimately the
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content for craft advantage the book i wrote
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and super architect one of followed. and my class
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I created called Success Empathy. I love that
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this conversation is starting from that world
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of architecture, right? So as someone who, you
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know, is a total layperson when it comes to what
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it takes to actually create and build and build
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these beautiful structures that we all exist
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in, it would never occur to me that there would
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be any kind of like territorial managing or or
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protectionism in that, right? I see that all
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the time in the corporate world, right? But we're
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not building something together literally, and
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in this case, you guys literally are. Yeah, which
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would make you think that we'd be educated the
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same way. You would think that the College of
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Architecture and College of Construction would
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be one college, you know? The College of Building
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Things. You have a better environment. You know,
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the reality is architects can exist without builders,
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builders can exist without architects, but there
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is this weird territorial thing because culturally
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the educations are different. And as a result,
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you kind of grow up in one environment where
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it's ideas first, which you see typically in
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the academic world of architecture education.
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And then you look at. You would hear the term
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reality first, or building risk first, whatever
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on the construction side. And so if you have
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two entities, groups of people educated that
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way, they don't start seeing the value the other
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team offers as well. They get too egocentric
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in their own profession, yet at the same time
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being egocentric, they're not fully appreciate
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how much they need the other. And so what i teach
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a success empathy is how we start have to appreciate
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other people's risks and roles and some of the
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best questions you can ask are bringing a team
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together. Hey what is your biggest worry on this
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project what's your biggest concern what's your
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what's your ideal outcome what is your risk.
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Tell me and then i and then hopefully in that
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dialogue both partners can start say wow. I can
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help with that risk, you can help with my risk,
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and we can come together and make a really amazing
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project. That doesn't often happen if at all,
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but bottom line, the thing that's so amazing
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about it, different than accounting, different
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than law, different than medicine, architecture
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and construction are building things people live
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with for 30, 50 years, whether they like it or
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not. You can go to a different accountant. But
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you're walking in that same office every day
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for many, many, many years and living whether
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it's a good design or a bad design. So the impacts
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are huge. Yeah, I had a friend who was an architect
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intern, right? And she was kind of complaining,
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this was many, many years ago, kind of complaining
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about her internship. And she's like, literally,
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my entire job is to draw outlets and to decide
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where outlets go. And I looked around like that
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is like the most important job I could possibly
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imagine in an office building. because we don't
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have nearly enough outlets and it is very frustrating
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for me. And we like had a conversation about
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changing her perspective. Yes, your entire job
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is to look at a room and put marks where the
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outlets are going to be. But that's for an office
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building and a white collar job where we sit
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on computers all day. You couldn't have a more
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important job. Maybe that and the air conditioning.
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I am blown away by your comment because it is
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so amazingly true. The way we're educated in
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architecture is pretty much from a macro point
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of view initially, and we learn micro as we get
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into the details in professional practice. Contractors
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are often educated from the micro view of risk
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and the logistics of building something, all
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very important by the way. But ultimately when
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you're designing a building, I'm talking about
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architect, the electrical engineers, electrical
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subcontractors, the contractor, all the huge
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entity of people takes to build a building. to
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design and build a building. Ultimately, people
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are living in that building for a long time,
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30, 40 years. Our priority needs to be their
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joy in living in that building. That should be
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the priority, not territorial stuff, not like
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aesthetics over daily function. We want both.
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We're a beautiful building, but you want to have
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that outlet. And you have no idea how many times
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I've been in projects where outlets, it's like,
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where are they? What happened? Or why is the
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outlet in the middle of a marker board? What
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is going on here? You know, these things happen.
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Humans are building buildings and the priority
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needs to be on those little details. So while
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I could appreciate her concern about, uh, feel
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like she's not doing anything, there is a balance
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in internships. There's really no such thing
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as a bad internship. You learn from all internships,
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but the bottom line is, uh, she does want to
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find herself in a place where there's also growth
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beyond outlets so she can become a more rounded
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profession. But your observation was real profound.
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Those outlets matter. Those outlets matter, right?
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And after we had that conversation, I think her
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perspective shifted too, right? Because to your
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point about that egocentrism of really seeing
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ourselves in that moment, in her internship,
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she was seeing it as, I'm not doing the things
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that I went to school to do. I didn't go to school
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to place outlets. I went to school to design
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beautiful buildings and to think about skylines.
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And from my perspective, what she was doing was
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so incredibly important. So if we can find ways
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to build the muscle of exiting our own ego and
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looking at how our small actions or big actions.
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impact those around us. I think it's a really
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important conversation. Well, it's huge. It's
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the driver behind my class success empathy, essentially.
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But also, the thing about every college is different.
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Every university has a different kind of culture
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to it. ASU has got a great culture of always
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trying to find that balance between the skyline
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and the detail. The skyline and putting things
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together. No college, university is perfect.
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But the one, you know, the universities that
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focus so much on the skyline, they are missing
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a very key component of the education that is
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super important when you get out of school. So,
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you know, you want to find that, and one thing
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what's really cool for her benefit is that she's
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interning. You know, that internship gives her
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some professional practice. The one thing I like
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about what we do at ASU is simply we find balance
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always. We're always moving forward. It's always,
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I never see a place constantly moving forward
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trying to find balance between theory and practice.
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The thing about it is that You know, school is
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a small moment in your life, right? You really
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need to get geared toward the profession as you
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go forward and learn, get the confidence into
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that profession confidently. That's part of our
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mission, right? The other thing, though, is respecting
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roles. When you come out of school, you have
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preconceived notions from your academic experience.
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When you get into practice, all of a sudden you
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start seeing the silos that make up a lot of
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the whole corporate world, the profession, right?
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And you find yourself in a silo all of a sudden.
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It's like, wait a minute. I can't seem to interact
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or grow the way I want to grow. And so I talk
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about my first book, Craft Advantage, this idea
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of perforated silos, where we create a culture
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of, or corporate organizations need silos. They
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need to be organized, but can't they be perforated?
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A culture that says, reach through any silo you
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want. To do electrical outlets do mechanical
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design do architecture construction learns even
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if that's not your per se discipline you can
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still learn and guess what. Per phrase silos
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make you start appreciating the risks of those
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and those other silos and others locations they
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start going you are interested in what i do.
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And now also now i'm interested in what you want
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to do and now i'll set in the risk is starting
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to be shared or least appreciated then what happens
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is teams become high performing. And trust, you
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know, becomes that fuel for really amazing things
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and fun. Like architecture and construction,
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as an example, is huge fun. It's huge. It's hard
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as you can imagine, but it's so fun when the
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teams are high performing. And I actually think
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we saved the world. I always joke about this.
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We can save the world if we can take that positive
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trust centered collaboration that you see in
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the built design and the construction and architecture
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world. what it takes, and the owner world, what
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it takes to build that building. If you could
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take all that positive energy, put it in a bottle,
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everybody drink it, and we're just gonna, it's
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gonna be wonderful. I couldn't agree more. And
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so I'm gonna put out a hypothesis that it is
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our instinctual preservationist, you know, lizard
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brains back in the day when we had to hoard resources
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to survive, to silo and protect. So if that is
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my hypothesis, How do we start to build the muscle
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that allows us to see the world as a perforated
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silo rather than something we have to protect?
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Because obviously you started a class to start
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that. So how do we actually do that in reality?
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One is having a conversation that we all come
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to the table with preconceived notions and biases
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that come from our culture, that come from our
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education, that come from our experiences, wherever
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they come from. And we have to first see those.
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The best we can is just ask yourself, and I give
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you a good example, After many, many years, as
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this kind of hypothetical example, I guess, it's
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very common for this idea that architects don't
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like contractors, contractors don't like architects.
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It's that weird dynamic, even though they need
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each other. And it comes from the fact that there's
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not shared values or shared risks, understanding
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the risks. For example, when an architecture
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team produces low quality documents, are putting
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risk, added risk onto the builder. Well, obviously,
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if you put added risk on me, I may not like you
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as much. If you keep adding risk to me, I'm not
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going to be such a big fan. When the builder
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is taking this attitude that their risk is the
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driver for everything, and they're not going
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to even listen to ideas that might be better
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meant for the project and the client, then, of
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course, the architect starts feeling like there's
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a barrier there. So it's all coming from essentially
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a lack of respect, respecting the risk profile
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of each person and the goals for each person.
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So if in fact, we can break that barrier a little
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bit, just for a minute, ask that builder, what's
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your biggest risk? The builder asks, what's the
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architect's biggest risk, biggest goal, right?
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Just have a light conversation about it. Break
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the barriers down so you can actually, it's kind
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of like anything else. You can't really persuade
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and kind of motivate growth if ears are closed.
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You know, you really need to make an effort to
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open ears and realize the architect needs to
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realize they come to the table with certain biases
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and inefficiencies and ineffectiveness and they
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know it and they need to fix that because that
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adds risk to the builder. The builder also comes
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the same way with their own limitations and limits
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and their risk profile and their proper erosion
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concern and so on. Both entities have to hop
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over the fence a little bit and kind of appreciate
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that. But also one other thing is respect is
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earned, not deserved. So just because you're
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there doesn't mean you deserve the respect you
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got to earn it. And so the architect crapped
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advantage the book first book I wrote talks about
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craft declining. The crafter are of quality of
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documents and so on and. Meetings whatever is
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declining and as a result is increasing the risk
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profile for the contractors contractor they don't
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like risk you know they don't like profit erosion
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comes from so what do they do. They start finding
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ways to do the architects job feel that craftfully.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.019
And then that starts creating more potential
00:12:58.019 --> 00:12:59.820
barriers. So one thing that drives everything,
00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:03.059
I know this may sound over simplistic, but first
00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:06.879
take a moment and this is to understand yourself,
00:13:07.419 --> 00:13:10.080
ask questions, try to listen. The other thing
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.500
for the progression of architecture is ramp up
00:13:12.500 --> 00:13:16.100
that craft. The quality has to be as high as
00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:19.220
humanly possible. And when our craft is so high,
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:21.860
then all of a sudden the risk profiles change,
00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:24.700
contractors happy, owners happy, less change
00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:28.279
orders. Everybody's happy. Less barriers, less
00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.100
hardened silos, more perforated. Because once
00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:34.340
I know that you're committed that way, I want
00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.080
my silos perforated. I want you there to help
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.139
make my team better, make the project better,
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.700
better meant for the built environment, everything
00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:42.940
else, better profit, everything else. It all
00:13:42.940 --> 00:13:44.600
comes from that, I think. And that's what the
00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.399
intent of Craft Advantage is about. And it's
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.179
come to drive me. Because I've seen it, when
00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:52.200
you talk about origin story, I started seeing
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.360
declining craft. Because of because i took i
00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:58.759
curated my and i know i'm crazy right i mean
00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.539
i'm not going to do this. I curated and pick
00:14:01.539 --> 00:14:03.740
positions because i couldn't help it i had to
00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.039
learn about these things so i find myself in
00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.000
these positions were mostly engineers small architect
00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.799
mostly contractors small architect whatever i
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.419
said in development so when i started seeing.
00:14:14.299 --> 00:14:17.600
This removal of responsibility from the architect
00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:20.279
because of a decline in craft and i was wondering
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.440
where is this all coming from. And I realize
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.159
it's coming from the fact that architects inadvertently,
00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:27.659
they're not intentional. It's been starting since
00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:31.340
the seventies, losing our craft has slowly been
00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.879
dropping due to accelerated delivery of virtual
00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.820
tools and so on. So that's such a new environment
00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:39.740
that we're in right now. And why I write about
00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:42.440
it, because it's a big deal. And I think it's
00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.820
really important to, to not just sit here and
00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.120
say, oh, it's just because, you know, construction
00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.529
sucks or it's just because. you know, this group
00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:52.529
doesn't do what they're supposed to do. And,
00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:55.710
you know, we have to have some personal ownership
00:14:55.710 --> 00:14:57.830
of this conversation, right? You make the first
00:14:57.830 --> 00:14:59.990
move to open the dialogue about what impacts
00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:03.250
them. Don't wait for them to care. Like, it's
00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:04.750
not that they don't care about you, but maybe
00:15:04.750 --> 00:15:06.769
it's not, it doesn't occur to them that they
00:15:06.769 --> 00:15:08.809
need to ask that question. So you make the first
00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:11.269
move to ask the question, what are your risks?
00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:13.970
What are your outcomes? Because the natural follow
00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:16.629
up question is, and what are yours? And you just
00:15:16.629 --> 00:15:20.429
nailed it again, because that component Combined
00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:23.649
with recognizing that the design documentation
00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:26.769
and the process starts with the architecture
00:15:26.769 --> 00:15:29.409
and design team. That's where it starts. It doesn't
00:15:29.409 --> 00:15:31.409
start with the builder. It doesn't start with
00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:34.190
the client. You know, even though they have programmatic
00:15:34.190 --> 00:15:36.309
needs and so on, we deal with a very lot of complex
00:15:36.309 --> 00:15:39.629
projects in my firm. But the bottom line is if
00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:41.750
you, it's kind of like control. It's kind of
00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:43.809
like in relationships. Do what you can control,
00:15:43.809 --> 00:15:46.190
right? Where you have certain control of your
00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:49.529
behavior. Own your behavior, which means architect,
00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:51.590
I'm talking to the whole profession of architecture.
00:15:51.909 --> 00:15:55.210
You have direct control over quality of documents.
00:15:56.090 --> 00:15:58.710
Direct. No one's in the way, no builders coming
00:15:58.710 --> 00:16:00.870
in and generally speaking, and there might be
00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:03.269
some rare exception, messing up your process
00:16:03.269 --> 00:16:06.110
to craft beautiful documents. When those documents
00:16:06.110 --> 00:16:09.070
are well coordinated, well thought out and integrated
00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:11.289
with the needs of the contractor, needs of the
00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:14.169
owner. Wow. I mean, everything just gets simple.
00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:17.129
you know, in a highly over simplifying statement,
00:16:17.169 --> 00:16:20.029
but it gets simpler, gets more enjoyable. And
00:16:20.029 --> 00:16:24.389
the built environment gets better. So if you
00:16:24.389 --> 00:16:27.330
want to take the most selfish view of this, doing
00:16:27.330 --> 00:16:29.429
it this way means that the vision that you put
00:16:29.429 --> 00:16:32.409
on paper becomes a reality. Instead of ending
00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:34.169
up with something you're embarrassed to say you
00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:37.470
designed. Oh, you're killing me. That is exactly
00:16:37.470 --> 00:16:40.610
right. The more you do what we just described
00:16:40.610 --> 00:16:43.899
here, the more opportunities of realizing your
00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:47.200
idea exists. Because one, you're caring about,
00:16:47.259 --> 00:16:48.620
in the first book we talk about whole building,
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.740
I talk about whole building thinking, and this
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:52.799
idea of caring about the budget, for example,
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:54.799
and caring about the risk of the builder. Now
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:56.980
imagine you're designing, thinking about the
00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:59.279
budget, not just some image, right? And you're
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.519
caring about this and this and this. All of a
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.079
sudden, that design is harmonized with reality.
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:07.740
Years ago, believe it or not, I'll come back
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.759
to this, I have finished a point. So when it's
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:14.579
harmonized, The everyone aligns because it's
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.079
all working together. It's all like, there's
00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.779
a resonance there that's happening. And because
00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:22.240
you are caring about what they, you're caring
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.799
about reality. That's a bottom line is there's
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.900
a reality to the project. I'll share a real fast,
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:31.039
quick story. I was a junior in high school or
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.000
junior senior, I can't remember, and I was working
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:38.180
for a firm. I was a gopher, you know, running
00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:40.220
around picking things up, I'd deliver documents
00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.500
to the construction sites, I would build models,
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.440
I would draw. And so they saw me as, you know,
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:49.019
the intern, really, right. So one day they were
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:51.200
discussing in the evening, I was there late working,
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.240
there's a budget, they're talking about budget
00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.160
and projects and how tough it is to get these
00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:58.839
projects in line with the budget and so on and
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:00.880
so forth. And so they thought they'd asked the
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.180
child, you know, hey, what do you think about
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.740
this topic? And I said something, it just came
00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:10.059
out. I said, reality lies within the budget.
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.700
And the senior architect looked at me like, wow,
00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.799
I can't believe that came out of this kid's mouth.
00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:19.920
And he wrote it as a quote and put it on the
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.299
desk. I thought, wow, that was pretty amazing.
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.579
But that's the truth of the matter. Architects
00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:29.400
and builders are building with other people's
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.119
money. We're designing and building with other
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.829
people's money. The ultimate disrespect to a
00:18:33.829 --> 00:18:36.910
client is poorly coordinated documents and poorly
00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:40.289
coordinated construction by the contract disrespecting
00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:42.789
the client the clients coming to the table with
00:18:42.789 --> 00:18:45.450
the money we have to have the ultimate respect
00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.670
by showing the ultimate craft not just in delivery
00:18:48.670 --> 00:18:50.829
of the design but delivery of the construction
00:18:50.829 --> 00:18:53.390
that's why architecture and construction need
00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:56.910
to be together because ultimately. That's where
00:18:56.910 --> 00:18:58.809
the power really ultimately is for the future
00:18:58.809 --> 00:19:03.029
as we get an AI. AI is going to be a big pivot
00:19:03.029 --> 00:19:05.589
point in our profession about 10 years from now
00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:07.650
probably, and I write about this in Super Architect,
00:19:08.130 --> 00:19:10.170
which is all about posture going forward with
00:19:10.170 --> 00:19:13.049
AI optimization and so on. The reality is AI
00:19:13.049 --> 00:19:15.250
is going to be one of those major inflection
00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:19.069
points in our industry when AI and machine learning
00:19:19.069 --> 00:19:21.730
can start doing technical drawings, essentially
00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:26.089
replacing the craft I described. When that happens,
00:19:26.769 --> 00:19:28.309
there's going to be a shift within the profession
00:19:28.309 --> 00:19:30.140
that's going to change leadership. It's going
00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:32.720
to change how firms win work, how firms retain
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.940
clients, how firms compete, how their whole business
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:38.460
model is going to change. And that's conceivably
00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:41.299
10 years from now, maybe earlier. Machine learning
00:19:41.299 --> 00:19:44.900
is moving fast. So this idea, the more unified,
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.660
the less fractured the design profession is,
00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:50.759
and the more unified we can be with construction
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.440
with shared values and respecting rules, good
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.819
manners. That's how we just take huge advantage
00:19:56.819 --> 00:20:00.170
of AI. and move forward really in an amazing,
00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:03.190
exciting way, I think. So, it's all connected.
00:20:04.890 --> 00:20:07.990
Considering the people that you know or aspire
00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:10.470
to know, who else is out there? Who else should
00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:15.210
we be listening to? Well, I think, I don't know
00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:16.890
if there's much listening, there's reading, although
00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:19.170
you could probably listen to them. I look at,
00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:24.089
I'm a big fan of knowledge, reading, everything,
00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:28.470
all sorts of things. My favorite architect, is
00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:33.769
Norman Foster, because if you read the, I won't
00:20:33.769 --> 00:20:36.230
go into his history, but if you watch, he's from
00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:40.069
the UK, he did the Apple headquarters as an example.
00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.829
He understands that almost like, I almost would
00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:45.950
joke, have you never met the guy at this molecular
00:20:45.950 --> 00:20:50.150
level of art, passion applied with precision,
00:20:50.609 --> 00:20:53.730
and engineering excellence harmonized with construction.
00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:56.920
I've loved his work from day one. I've been fascinated
00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.039
and just very motivated by it because no one
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.299
else really in our whole profession that I can
00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:05.200
see looks at it like that. They kind of lean
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.640
one way or the other. He looks at it as an integrated
00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.660
approach that, like I said, I think it's molecular.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.960
I think it's just the way he is. An amazing person.
00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:18.819
One of the things with the mistake architects
00:21:18.819 --> 00:21:23.359
make, I think, is we got to start paying attention
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:25.579
To all these other architects you don't hear
00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:28.059
about really there's a whole bunch of architects
00:21:28.059 --> 00:21:31.920
that are not so -called famous but doing major
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.960
profound things. It's almost like we need to
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.279
lean away a little bit from the shiny architecture
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.339
and not that we shouldn't respect it enjoy it
00:21:42.339 --> 00:21:44.339
but look at some of the other things going on
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.799
advanced manufacturing and all the other semiconductor
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.099
world and all this amazing things happening there.
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:51.259
The other thing I'd recommend a book to read
00:21:53.050 --> 00:21:57.869
There's a book called Toyota Way. It is amazing.
00:21:58.009 --> 00:21:59.789
There's another book I'm reading too called The
00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:02.309
Innovator's Dilemma. It's an older book done
00:22:02.309 --> 00:22:05.269
in the late, early 2000s, I think late 1990s,
00:22:05.269 --> 00:22:08.529
whatever. The Innovator's Dilemma talks about
00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:11.730
this dilemma within our business model of innovating
00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:15.170
that could be potentially successful or a failure,
00:22:15.309 --> 00:22:18.170
but the necessary, the priorities you have to
00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:20.450
determine at risk and why you're running really
00:22:20.450 --> 00:22:24.079
fast. Toyota Way though, talks about, Toyota
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.240
came up with this kind of big observation and
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.640
how you can only imagine what they were thinking,
00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:31.779
what they said, wait, wow, if we were to, when
00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:34.000
we have our loading dock and a crate lands on
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.279
our loading dock, it moves 10 times before it
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.039
gets to its location. They decided we're going
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.140
to streamline our whole industry, our whole kind
00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:43.859
of operation where we're going to try and make
00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:47.380
that crate land one time. And so it's not being
00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:51.099
moved nine more times. That reduces safety issues
00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:55.119
that reduces that increases profitability and
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:58.319
allows when you look at it as a macro scale more
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.519
revenue for them hiring the best talent having
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:02.539
the best technology having the best integrated
00:23:02.539 --> 00:23:06.339
systems the best processes. So i mentioned that
00:23:06.339 --> 00:23:09.319
is that architects can't look just that we have
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.380
to look at the business models of high performance
00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:14.740
you have to understand that that philosophy.
00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:18.819
of the business operations and optimal business
00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:22.059
processes ripple into architecture. That's our
00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.059
clients are often coming from that background.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.539
The more we understand that, the better we will
00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:28.799
be at delivering and growing our profession and
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.859
working with the builder. Also, you'll learn
00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:33.299
a lot about how to run your own practice. So
00:23:33.299 --> 00:23:36.799
those are some recommendations, some ideas. So.
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.019
And Bo, if someone is really connecting with
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.119
you, they want to follow along, they want to
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:44.210
learn more about your work as a thought leader
00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:46.269
or as an architect, where can they find you online?
00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:51.509
We have a website, dromiacinvention .com and
00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:55.970
one word, one word, and you can email me at bedromiacatinvention
00:23:55.970 --> 00:24:02.130
.com, at dromiacinvention .com. So I think that's,
00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.930
yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming
00:24:04.930 --> 00:24:07.190
on Taking Back Monday. Thank you for helping
00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:09.910
us rethink about that whole building philosophy
00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:11.450
and how we might be able to apply that to our
00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:14.930
own. experiences. This was a really unique and
00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:16.809
interesting conversation. Thank you for having
00:24:16.809 --> 00:24:17.190
me.
00:00:00.669 --> 00:00:02.770
Hey, you're listening to Taking Back Monday.
00:00:02.830 --> 00:00:05.870
My name is Alyssa Nolte. And I am Beu Dromiak.
00:00:06.750 --> 00:00:08.589
And we're going to get right into it. Bo, tell
00:00:08.589 --> 00:00:12.269
us, what is your origin story? My origin stories
00:00:12.269 --> 00:00:15.869
really began junior in high school when I started
00:00:15.869 --> 00:00:19.449
working in architecture. And being the nature
00:00:19.449 --> 00:00:22.530
of that practice of learning how to build and
00:00:22.530 --> 00:00:24.649
design, design -build environment, I started
00:00:24.649 --> 00:00:27.390
realizing there's this integration between construction
00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:30.480
and design, construction and architecture. that
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.240
does this connected tissue there that is often
00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:35.640
kind of overlooked. There's barriers between
00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.439
it. And I started seeing really early age how
00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:40.880
the only way you can actually better the built
00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:44.000
environment was through an integrated team leadership
00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:47.600
where people are actually working together, not
00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:50.979
protecting territories. I started, it was weird
00:00:50.979 --> 00:00:52.700
because at an early age, I started seeing this
00:00:52.700 --> 00:00:55.200
more through experience like, wow, why is that
00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:57.520
conflict happening? And then throughout my career,
00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:01.119
I put myself in these positions where i can learn
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:04.120
more i kinda got this. This appetite for wanting
00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:06.519
to know more more the macro pressures of leadership
00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:09.540
in our profession and so i started putting myself
00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:11.900
in taking job opportunities that would put me
00:01:11.900 --> 00:01:14.739
in more and more different environments that
00:01:14.739 --> 00:01:16.319
would allow me to see the different perspectives
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:19.200
and by doing that i actually start broadening
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:21.819
my perspectives which became. Ultimately the
00:01:21.819 --> 00:01:24.739
content for craft advantage the book i wrote
00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:27.519
and super architect one of followed. and my class
00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:32.219
I created called Success Empathy. I love that
00:01:32.219 --> 00:01:35.200
this conversation is starting from that world
00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:37.519
of architecture, right? So as someone who, you
00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:41.140
know, is a total layperson when it comes to what
00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:43.599
it takes to actually create and build and build
00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:45.659
these beautiful structures that we all exist
00:01:45.659 --> 00:01:48.219
in, it would never occur to me that there would
00:01:48.219 --> 00:01:52.760
be any kind of like territorial managing or or
00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:54.640
protectionism in that, right? I see that all
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:56.480
the time in the corporate world, right? But we're
00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:58.840
not building something together literally, and
00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.579
in this case, you guys literally are. Yeah, which
00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:04.980
would make you think that we'd be educated the
00:02:04.980 --> 00:02:08.319
same way. You would think that the College of
00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:10.060
Architecture and College of Construction would
00:02:10.060 --> 00:02:13.960
be one college, you know? The College of Building
00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:19.180
Things. You have a better environment. You know,
00:02:19.580 --> 00:02:22.520
the reality is architects can exist without builders,
00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:25.620
builders can exist without architects, but there
00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:27.740
is this weird territorial thing because culturally
00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:29.860
the educations are different. And as a result,
00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.360
you kind of grow up in one environment where
00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:34.280
it's ideas first, which you see typically in
00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.360
the academic world of architecture education.
00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:40.280
And then you look at. You would hear the term
00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.560
reality first, or building risk first, whatever
00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.860
on the construction side. And so if you have
00:02:45.860 --> 00:02:48.120
two entities, groups of people educated that
00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.300
way, they don't start seeing the value the other
00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:55.159
team offers as well. They get too egocentric
00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:57.919
in their own profession, yet at the same time
00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.639
being egocentric, they're not fully appreciate
00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:04.300
how much they need the other. And so what i teach
00:03:04.300 --> 00:03:06.719
a success empathy is how we start have to appreciate
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.039
other people's risks and roles and some of the
00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.120
best questions you can ask are bringing a team
00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.120
together. Hey what is your biggest worry on this
00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:17.939
project what's your biggest concern what's your
00:03:17.939 --> 00:03:20.860
what's your ideal outcome what is your risk.
00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:24.099
Tell me and then i and then hopefully in that
00:03:24.099 --> 00:03:28.650
dialogue both partners can start say wow. I can
00:03:28.650 --> 00:03:30.469
help with that risk, you can help with my risk,
00:03:30.509 --> 00:03:32.389
and we can come together and make a really amazing
00:03:32.389 --> 00:03:35.229
project. That doesn't often happen if at all,
00:03:35.729 --> 00:03:39.110
but bottom line, the thing that's so amazing
00:03:39.110 --> 00:03:41.090
about it, different than accounting, different
00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:43.930
than law, different than medicine, architecture
00:03:43.930 --> 00:03:46.830
and construction are building things people live
00:03:46.830 --> 00:03:49.210
with for 30, 50 years, whether they like it or
00:03:49.210 --> 00:03:52.759
not. You can go to a different accountant. But
00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:54.800
you're walking in that same office every day
00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:56.900
for many, many, many years and living whether
00:03:56.900 --> 00:03:59.360
it's a good design or a bad design. So the impacts
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:05.219
are huge. Yeah, I had a friend who was an architect
00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:07.520
intern, right? And she was kind of complaining,
00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.860
this was many, many years ago, kind of complaining
00:04:09.860 --> 00:04:11.759
about her internship. And she's like, literally,
00:04:11.780 --> 00:04:15.300
my entire job is to draw outlets and to decide
00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:17.360
where outlets go. And I looked around like that
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:19.480
is like the most important job I could possibly
00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:21.569
imagine in an office building. because we don't
00:04:21.569 --> 00:04:23.889
have nearly enough outlets and it is very frustrating
00:04:23.889 --> 00:04:26.209
for me. And we like had a conversation about
00:04:26.209 --> 00:04:28.129
changing her perspective. Yes, your entire job
00:04:28.129 --> 00:04:30.910
is to look at a room and put marks where the
00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:33.610
outlets are going to be. But that's for an office
00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:35.089
building and a white collar job where we sit
00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:37.470
on computers all day. You couldn't have a more
00:04:37.470 --> 00:04:39.209
important job. Maybe that and the air conditioning.
00:04:39.790 --> 00:04:42.410
I am blown away by your comment because it is
00:04:42.410 --> 00:04:46.089
so amazingly true. The way we're educated in
00:04:46.089 --> 00:04:48.209
architecture is pretty much from a macro point
00:04:48.209 --> 00:04:51.290
of view initially, and we learn micro as we get
00:04:51.290 --> 00:04:54.490
into the details in professional practice. Contractors
00:04:54.490 --> 00:04:57.230
are often educated from the micro view of risk
00:04:57.230 --> 00:05:00.250
and the logistics of building something, all
00:05:00.250 --> 00:05:03.550
very important by the way. But ultimately when
00:05:03.550 --> 00:05:05.649
you're designing a building, I'm talking about
00:05:05.649 --> 00:05:07.910
architect, the electrical engineers, electrical
00:05:07.910 --> 00:05:11.449
subcontractors, the contractor, all the huge
00:05:11.449 --> 00:05:13.970
entity of people takes to build a building. to
00:05:13.970 --> 00:05:17.149
design and build a building. Ultimately, people
00:05:17.149 --> 00:05:19.730
are living in that building for a long time,
00:05:19.769 --> 00:05:23.290
30, 40 years. Our priority needs to be their
00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:25.449
joy in living in that building. That should be
00:05:25.449 --> 00:05:28.709
the priority, not territorial stuff, not like
00:05:28.709 --> 00:05:32.790
aesthetics over daily function. We want both.
00:05:32.930 --> 00:05:34.790
We're a beautiful building, but you want to have
00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:37.050
that outlet. And you have no idea how many times
00:05:37.050 --> 00:05:39.769
I've been in projects where outlets, it's like,
00:05:39.889 --> 00:05:42.160
where are they? What happened? Or why is the
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.259
outlet in the middle of a marker board? What
00:05:44.259 --> 00:05:46.639
is going on here? You know, these things happen.
00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:50.660
Humans are building buildings and the priority
00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:52.420
needs to be on those little details. So while
00:05:52.420 --> 00:05:55.519
I could appreciate her concern about, uh, feel
00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:57.360
like she's not doing anything, there is a balance
00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:59.560
in internships. There's really no such thing
00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:01.899
as a bad internship. You learn from all internships,
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.060
but the bottom line is, uh, she does want to
00:06:05.060 --> 00:06:07.319
find herself in a place where there's also growth
00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.779
beyond outlets so she can become a more rounded
00:06:09.779 --> 00:06:13.620
profession. But your observation was real profound.
00:06:13.860 --> 00:06:16.600
Those outlets matter. Those outlets matter, right?
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:18.819
And after we had that conversation, I think her
00:06:18.819 --> 00:06:21.759
perspective shifted too, right? Because to your
00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.920
point about that egocentrism of really seeing
00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:27.899
ourselves in that moment, in her internship,
00:06:28.459 --> 00:06:30.959
she was seeing it as, I'm not doing the things
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.019
that I went to school to do. I didn't go to school
00:06:33.019 --> 00:06:35.550
to place outlets. I went to school to design
00:06:35.550 --> 00:06:37.790
beautiful buildings and to think about skylines.
00:06:38.230 --> 00:06:41.370
And from my perspective, what she was doing was
00:06:41.370 --> 00:06:43.990
so incredibly important. So if we can find ways
00:06:43.990 --> 00:06:48.889
to build the muscle of exiting our own ego and
00:06:48.889 --> 00:06:52.170
looking at how our small actions or big actions.
00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:54.779
impact those around us. I think it's a really
00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:56.500
important conversation. Well, it's huge. It's
00:06:56.500 --> 00:06:59.100
the driver behind my class success empathy, essentially.
00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:02.220
But also, the thing about every college is different.
00:07:02.379 --> 00:07:04.120
Every university has a different kind of culture
00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:06.779
to it. ASU has got a great culture of always
00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:09.899
trying to find that balance between the skyline
00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:12.519
and the detail. The skyline and putting things
00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:14.579
together. No college, university is perfect.
00:07:15.220 --> 00:07:17.959
But the one, you know, the universities that
00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:21.529
focus so much on the skyline, they are missing
00:07:21.529 --> 00:07:24.949
a very key component of the education that is
00:07:24.949 --> 00:07:27.449
super important when you get out of school. So,
00:07:27.550 --> 00:07:29.269
you know, you want to find that, and one thing
00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:31.449
what's really cool for her benefit is that she's
00:07:31.449 --> 00:07:33.810
interning. You know, that internship gives her
00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:35.970
some professional practice. The one thing I like
00:07:35.970 --> 00:07:38.430
about what we do at ASU is simply we find balance
00:07:38.430 --> 00:07:40.430
always. We're always moving forward. It's always,
00:07:40.589 --> 00:07:43.009
I never see a place constantly moving forward
00:07:43.009 --> 00:07:45.350
trying to find balance between theory and practice.
00:07:45.870 --> 00:07:49.600
The thing about it is that You know, school is
00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:51.560
a small moment in your life, right? You really
00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:53.439
need to get geared toward the profession as you
00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.800
go forward and learn, get the confidence into
00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:58.019
that profession confidently. That's part of our
00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:01.139
mission, right? The other thing, though, is respecting
00:08:01.139 --> 00:08:05.040
roles. When you come out of school, you have
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.040
preconceived notions from your academic experience.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.639
When you get into practice, all of a sudden you
00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.279
start seeing the silos that make up a lot of
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:15.920
the whole corporate world, the profession, right?
00:08:16.269 --> 00:08:18.449
And you find yourself in a silo all of a sudden.
00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:22.050
It's like, wait a minute. I can't seem to interact
00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:24.089
or grow the way I want to grow. And so I talk
00:08:24.089 --> 00:08:26.709
about my first book, Craft Advantage, this idea
00:08:26.709 --> 00:08:29.990
of perforated silos, where we create a culture
00:08:29.990 --> 00:08:34.129
of, or corporate organizations need silos. They
00:08:34.129 --> 00:08:37.210
need to be organized, but can't they be perforated?
00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:40.009
A culture that says, reach through any silo you
00:08:40.009 --> 00:08:43.549
want. To do electrical outlets do mechanical
00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.769
design do architecture construction learns even
00:08:46.769 --> 00:08:48.789
if that's not your per se discipline you can
00:08:48.789 --> 00:08:51.789
still learn and guess what. Per phrase silos
00:08:51.789 --> 00:08:54.330
make you start appreciating the risks of those
00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:57.049
and those other silos and others locations they
00:08:57.049 --> 00:08:59.669
start going you are interested in what i do.
00:09:00.149 --> 00:09:02.370
And now also now i'm interested in what you want
00:09:02.370 --> 00:09:04.610
to do and now i'll set in the risk is starting
00:09:04.610 --> 00:09:07.590
to be shared or least appreciated then what happens
00:09:07.590 --> 00:09:11.029
is teams become high performing. And trust, you
00:09:11.029 --> 00:09:14.710
know, becomes that fuel for really amazing things
00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:16.909
and fun. Like architecture and construction,
00:09:17.389 --> 00:09:21.309
as an example, is huge fun. It's huge. It's hard
00:09:21.309 --> 00:09:24.169
as you can imagine, but it's so fun when the
00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:26.549
teams are high performing. And I actually think
00:09:26.549 --> 00:09:28.830
we saved the world. I always joke about this.
00:09:29.230 --> 00:09:32.529
We can save the world if we can take that positive
00:09:32.529 --> 00:09:34.629
trust centered collaboration that you see in
00:09:34.629 --> 00:09:37.889
the built design and the construction and architecture
00:09:37.889 --> 00:09:40.610
world. what it takes, and the owner world, what
00:09:40.610 --> 00:09:42.070
it takes to build that building. If you could
00:09:42.070 --> 00:09:44.649
take all that positive energy, put it in a bottle,
00:09:45.009 --> 00:09:47.029
everybody drink it, and we're just gonna, it's
00:09:47.029 --> 00:09:50.889
gonna be wonderful. I couldn't agree more. And
00:09:50.889 --> 00:09:54.129
so I'm gonna put out a hypothesis that it is
00:09:54.129 --> 00:09:57.830
our instinctual preservationist, you know, lizard
00:09:57.830 --> 00:09:59.990
brains back in the day when we had to hoard resources
00:09:59.990 --> 00:10:05.289
to survive, to silo and protect. So if that is
00:10:05.289 --> 00:10:08.970
my hypothesis, How do we start to build the muscle
00:10:08.970 --> 00:10:11.769
that allows us to see the world as a perforated
00:10:11.769 --> 00:10:14.090
silo rather than something we have to protect?
00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:16.730
Because obviously you started a class to start
00:10:16.730 --> 00:10:18.889
that. So how do we actually do that in reality?
00:10:19.309 --> 00:10:22.529
One is having a conversation that we all come
00:10:22.529 --> 00:10:25.169
to the table with preconceived notions and biases
00:10:25.169 --> 00:10:27.710
that come from our culture, that come from our
00:10:27.710 --> 00:10:29.809
education, that come from our experiences, wherever
00:10:29.809 --> 00:10:32.710
they come from. And we have to first see those.
00:10:33.029 --> 00:10:35.269
The best we can is just ask yourself, and I give
00:10:35.269 --> 00:10:38.029
you a good example, After many, many years, as
00:10:38.029 --> 00:10:40.529
this kind of hypothetical example, I guess, it's
00:10:40.529 --> 00:10:43.190
very common for this idea that architects don't
00:10:43.190 --> 00:10:45.509
like contractors, contractors don't like architects.
00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:47.570
It's that weird dynamic, even though they need
00:10:47.570 --> 00:10:54.830
each other. And it comes from the fact that there's
00:10:54.830 --> 00:10:57.649
not shared values or shared risks, understanding
00:10:57.649 --> 00:10:59.450
the risks. For example, when an architecture
00:10:59.450 --> 00:11:04.429
team produces low quality documents, are putting
00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:07.389
risk, added risk onto the builder. Well, obviously,
00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:09.529
if you put added risk on me, I may not like you
00:11:09.529 --> 00:11:11.809
as much. If you keep adding risk to me, I'm not
00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:15.230
going to be such a big fan. When the builder
00:11:15.230 --> 00:11:17.830
is taking this attitude that their risk is the
00:11:17.830 --> 00:11:19.250
driver for everything, and they're not going
00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:21.809
to even listen to ideas that might be better
00:11:21.809 --> 00:11:24.230
meant for the project and the client, then, of
00:11:24.230 --> 00:11:26.409
course, the architect starts feeling like there's
00:11:26.409 --> 00:11:29.330
a barrier there. So it's all coming from essentially
00:11:30.189 --> 00:11:33.350
a lack of respect, respecting the risk profile
00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:35.529
of each person and the goals for each person.
00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:38.110
So if in fact, we can break that barrier a little
00:11:38.110 --> 00:11:40.450
bit, just for a minute, ask that builder, what's
00:11:40.450 --> 00:11:42.409
your biggest risk? The builder asks, what's the
00:11:42.409 --> 00:11:44.870
architect's biggest risk, biggest goal, right?
00:11:44.909 --> 00:11:47.470
Just have a light conversation about it. Break
00:11:47.470 --> 00:11:50.110
the barriers down so you can actually, it's kind
00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:52.789
of like anything else. You can't really persuade
00:11:52.789 --> 00:11:57.230
and kind of motivate growth if ears are closed.
00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:59.580
You know, you really need to make an effort to
00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:03.240
open ears and realize the architect needs to
00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.220
realize they come to the table with certain biases
00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:07.980
and inefficiencies and ineffectiveness and they
00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:09.960
know it and they need to fix that because that
00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.860
adds risk to the builder. The builder also comes
00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:15.039
the same way with their own limitations and limits
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:17.580
and their risk profile and their proper erosion
00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:21.580
concern and so on. Both entities have to hop
00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:23.659
over the fence a little bit and kind of appreciate
00:12:23.659 --> 00:12:26.240
that. But also one other thing is respect is
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:29.000
earned, not deserved. So just because you're
00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:30.659
there doesn't mean you deserve the respect you
00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:33.039
got to earn it. And so the architect crapped
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:35.220
advantage the book first book I wrote talks about
00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:39.000
craft declining. The crafter are of quality of
00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.240
documents and so on and. Meetings whatever is
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.600
declining and as a result is increasing the risk
00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.700
profile for the contractors contractor they don't
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:50.000
like risk you know they don't like profit erosion
00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.519
comes from so what do they do. They start finding
00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.559
ways to do the architects job feel that craftfully.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.019
And then that starts creating more potential
00:12:58.019 --> 00:12:59.820
barriers. So one thing that drives everything,
00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:03.059
I know this may sound over simplistic, but first
00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:06.879
take a moment and this is to understand yourself,
00:13:07.419 --> 00:13:10.080
ask questions, try to listen. The other thing
00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.500
for the progression of architecture is ramp up
00:13:12.500 --> 00:13:16.100
that craft. The quality has to be as high as
00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:19.220
humanly possible. And when our craft is so high,
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:21.860
then all of a sudden the risk profiles change,
00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:24.700
contractors happy, owners happy, less change
00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:28.279
orders. Everybody's happy. Less barriers, less
00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.100
hardened silos, more perforated. Because once
00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:34.340
I know that you're committed that way, I want
00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.080
my silos perforated. I want you there to help
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.139
make my team better, make the project better,
00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:40.700
better meant for the built environment, everything
00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:42.940
else, better profit, everything else. It all
00:13:42.940 --> 00:13:44.600
comes from that, I think. And that's what the
00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.399
intent of Craft Advantage is about. And it's
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.179
come to drive me. Because I've seen it, when
00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:52.200
you talk about origin story, I started seeing
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.360
declining craft. Because of because i took i
00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:58.759
curated my and i know i'm crazy right i mean
00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.539
i'm not going to do this. I curated and pick
00:14:01.539 --> 00:14:03.740
positions because i couldn't help it i had to
00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:06.039
learn about these things so i find myself in
00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.000
these positions were mostly engineers small architect
00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.799
mostly contractors small architect whatever i
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.419
said in development so when i started seeing.
00:14:14.299 --> 00:14:17.600
This removal of responsibility from the architect
00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:20.279
because of a decline in craft and i was wondering
00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.440
where is this all coming from. And I realize
00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.159
it's coming from the fact that architects inadvertently,
00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:27.659
they're not intentional. It's been starting since
00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:31.340
the seventies, losing our craft has slowly been
00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.879
dropping due to accelerated delivery of virtual
00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.820
tools and so on. So that's such a new environment
00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:39.740
that we're in right now. And why I write about
00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:42.440
it, because it's a big deal. And I think it's
00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:45.820
really important to, to not just sit here and
00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.120
say, oh, it's just because, you know, construction
00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.529
sucks or it's just because. you know, this group
00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:52.529
doesn't do what they're supposed to do. And,
00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:55.710
you know, we have to have some personal ownership
00:14:55.710 --> 00:14:57.830
of this conversation, right? You make the first
00:14:57.830 --> 00:14:59.990
move to open the dialogue about what impacts
00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:03.250
them. Don't wait for them to care. Like, it's
00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:04.750
not that they don't care about you, but maybe
00:15:04.750 --> 00:15:06.769
it's not, it doesn't occur to them that they
00:15:06.769 --> 00:15:08.809
need to ask that question. So you make the first
00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:11.269
move to ask the question, what are your risks?
00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:13.970
What are your outcomes? Because the natural follow
00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:16.629
up question is, and what are yours? And you just
00:15:16.629 --> 00:15:20.429
nailed it again, because that component Combined
00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:23.649
with recognizing that the design documentation
00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:26.769
and the process starts with the architecture
00:15:26.769 --> 00:15:29.409
and design team. That's where it starts. It doesn't
00:15:29.409 --> 00:15:31.409
start with the builder. It doesn't start with
00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:34.190
the client. You know, even though they have programmatic
00:15:34.190 --> 00:15:36.309
needs and so on, we deal with a very lot of complex
00:15:36.309 --> 00:15:39.629
projects in my firm. But the bottom line is if
00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:41.750
you, it's kind of like control. It's kind of
00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:43.809
like in relationships. Do what you can control,
00:15:43.809 --> 00:15:46.190
right? Where you have certain control of your
00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:49.529
behavior. Own your behavior, which means architect,
00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:51.590
I'm talking to the whole profession of architecture.
00:15:51.909 --> 00:15:55.210
You have direct control over quality of documents.
00:15:56.090 --> 00:15:58.710
Direct. No one's in the way, no builders coming
00:15:58.710 --> 00:16:00.870
in and generally speaking, and there might be
00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:03.269
some rare exception, messing up your process
00:16:03.269 --> 00:16:06.110
to craft beautiful documents. When those documents
00:16:06.110 --> 00:16:09.070
are well coordinated, well thought out and integrated
00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:11.289
with the needs of the contractor, needs of the
00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:14.169
owner. Wow. I mean, everything just gets simple.
00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:17.129
you know, in a highly over simplifying statement,
00:16:17.169 --> 00:16:20.029
but it gets simpler, gets more enjoyable. And
00:16:20.029 --> 00:16:24.389
the built environment gets better. So if you
00:16:24.389 --> 00:16:27.330
want to take the most selfish view of this, doing
00:16:27.330 --> 00:16:29.429
it this way means that the vision that you put
00:16:29.429 --> 00:16:32.409
on paper becomes a reality. Instead of ending
00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:34.169
up with something you're embarrassed to say you
00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:37.470
designed. Oh, you're killing me. That is exactly
00:16:37.470 --> 00:16:40.610
right. The more you do what we just described
00:16:40.610 --> 00:16:43.899
here, the more opportunities of realizing your
00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:47.200
idea exists. Because one, you're caring about,
00:16:47.259 --> 00:16:48.620
in the first book we talk about whole building,
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.740
I talk about whole building thinking, and this
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:52.799
idea of caring about the budget, for example,
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:54.799
and caring about the risk of the builder. Now
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:56.980
imagine you're designing, thinking about the
00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:59.279
budget, not just some image, right? And you're
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.519
caring about this and this and this. All of a
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:05.079
sudden, that design is harmonized with reality.
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:07.740
Years ago, believe it or not, I'll come back
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.759
to this, I have finished a point. So when it's
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:14.579
harmonized, The everyone aligns because it's
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.079
all working together. It's all like, there's
00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.779
a resonance there that's happening. And because
00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:22.240
you are caring about what they, you're caring
00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.799
about reality. That's a bottom line is there's
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.900
a reality to the project. I'll share a real fast,
00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:31.039
quick story. I was a junior in high school or
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.000
junior senior, I can't remember, and I was working
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:38.180
for a firm. I was a gopher, you know, running
00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:40.220
around picking things up, I'd deliver documents
00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.500
to the construction sites, I would build models,
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.440
I would draw. And so they saw me as, you know,
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:49.019
the intern, really, right. So one day they were
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:51.200
discussing in the evening, I was there late working,
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.240
there's a budget, they're talking about budget
00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.160
and projects and how tough it is to get these
00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:58.839
projects in line with the budget and so on and
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:00.880
so forth. And so they thought they'd asked the
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.180
child, you know, hey, what do you think about
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.740
this topic? And I said something, it just came
00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:10.059
out. I said, reality lies within the budget.
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.700
And the senior architect looked at me like, wow,
00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.799
I can't believe that came out of this kid's mouth.
00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:19.920
And he wrote it as a quote and put it on the
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.299
desk. I thought, wow, that was pretty amazing.
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.579
But that's the truth of the matter. Architects
00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:29.400
and builders are building with other people's
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.119
money. We're designing and building with other
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.829
people's money. The ultimate disrespect to a
00:18:33.829 --> 00:18:36.910
client is poorly coordinated documents and poorly
00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:40.289
coordinated construction by the contract disrespecting
00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:42.789
the client the clients coming to the table with
00:18:42.789 --> 00:18:45.450
the money we have to have the ultimate respect
00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.670
by showing the ultimate craft not just in delivery
00:18:48.670 --> 00:18:50.829
of the design but delivery of the construction
00:18:50.829 --> 00:18:53.390
that's why architecture and construction need
00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:56.910
to be together because ultimately. That's where
00:18:56.910 --> 00:18:58.809
the power really ultimately is for the future
00:18:58.809 --> 00:19:03.029
as we get an AI. AI is going to be a big pivot
00:19:03.029 --> 00:19:05.589
point in our profession about 10 years from now
00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:07.650
probably, and I write about this in Super Architect,
00:19:08.130 --> 00:19:10.170
which is all about posture going forward with
00:19:10.170 --> 00:19:13.049
AI optimization and so on. The reality is AI
00:19:13.049 --> 00:19:15.250
is going to be one of those major inflection
00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:19.069
points in our industry when AI and machine learning
00:19:19.069 --> 00:19:21.730
can start doing technical drawings, essentially
00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:26.089
replacing the craft I described. When that happens,
00:19:26.769 --> 00:19:28.309
there's going to be a shift within the profession
00:19:28.309 --> 00:19:30.140
that's going to change leadership. It's going
00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:32.720
to change how firms win work, how firms retain
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.940
clients, how firms compete, how their whole business
00:19:35.940 --> 00:19:38.460
model is going to change. And that's conceivably
00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:41.299
10 years from now, maybe earlier. Machine learning
00:19:41.299 --> 00:19:44.900
is moving fast. So this idea, the more unified,
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.660
the less fractured the design profession is,
00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:50.759
and the more unified we can be with construction
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.440
with shared values and respecting rules, good
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.819
manners. That's how we just take huge advantage
00:19:56.819 --> 00:20:00.170
of AI. and move forward really in an amazing,
00:20:00.170 --> 00:20:03.190
exciting way, I think. So, it's all connected.
00:20:04.890 --> 00:20:07.990
Considering the people that you know or aspire
00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:10.470
to know, who else is out there? Who else should
00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:15.210
we be listening to? Well, I think, I don't know
00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:16.890
if there's much listening, there's reading, although
00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:19.170
you could probably listen to them. I look at,
00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:24.089
I'm a big fan of knowledge, reading, everything,
00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:28.470
all sorts of things. My favorite architect, is
00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:33.769
Norman Foster, because if you read the, I won't
00:20:33.769 --> 00:20:36.230
go into his history, but if you watch, he's from
00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:40.069
the UK, he did the Apple headquarters as an example.
00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.829
He understands that almost like, I almost would
00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:45.950
joke, have you never met the guy at this molecular
00:20:45.950 --> 00:20:50.150
level of art, passion applied with precision,
00:20:50.609 --> 00:20:53.730
and engineering excellence harmonized with construction.
00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:56.920
I've loved his work from day one. I've been fascinated
00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.039
and just very motivated by it because no one
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.299
else really in our whole profession that I can
00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:05.200
see looks at it like that. They kind of lean
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.640
one way or the other. He looks at it as an integrated
00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.660
approach that, like I said, I think it's molecular.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.960
I think it's just the way he is. An amazing person.
00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:18.819
One of the things with the mistake architects
00:21:18.819 --> 00:21:23.359
make, I think, is we got to start paying attention
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:25.579
To all these other architects you don't hear
00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:28.059
about really there's a whole bunch of architects
00:21:28.059 --> 00:21:31.920
that are not so -called famous but doing major
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.960
profound things. It's almost like we need to
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.279
lean away a little bit from the shiny architecture
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.339
and not that we shouldn't respect it enjoy it
00:21:42.339 --> 00:21:44.339
but look at some of the other things going on
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:46.799
advanced manufacturing and all the other semiconductor
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.099
world and all this amazing things happening there.
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:51.259
The other thing I'd recommend a book to read
00:21:53.050 --> 00:21:57.869
There's a book called Toyota Way. It is amazing.
00:21:58.009 --> 00:21:59.789
There's another book I'm reading too called The
00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:02.309
Innovator's Dilemma. It's an older book done
00:22:02.309 --> 00:22:05.269
in the late, early 2000s, I think late 1990s,
00:22:05.269 --> 00:22:08.529
whatever. The Innovator's Dilemma talks about
00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:11.730
this dilemma within our business model of innovating
00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:15.170
that could be potentially successful or a failure,
00:22:15.309 --> 00:22:18.170
but the necessary, the priorities you have to
00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:20.450
determine at risk and why you're running really
00:22:20.450 --> 00:22:24.079
fast. Toyota Way though, talks about, Toyota
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:26.240
came up with this kind of big observation and
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.640
how you can only imagine what they were thinking,
00:22:28.819 --> 00:22:31.779
what they said, wait, wow, if we were to, when
00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:34.000
we have our loading dock and a crate lands on
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.279
our loading dock, it moves 10 times before it
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.039
gets to its location. They decided we're going
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.140
to streamline our whole industry, our whole kind
00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:43.859
of operation where we're going to try and make
00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:47.380
that crate land one time. And so it's not being
00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:51.099
moved nine more times. That reduces safety issues
00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:55.119
that reduces that increases profitability and
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:58.319
allows when you look at it as a macro scale more
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.519
revenue for them hiring the best talent having
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:02.539
the best technology having the best integrated
00:23:02.539 --> 00:23:06.339
systems the best processes. So i mentioned that
00:23:06.339 --> 00:23:09.319
is that architects can't look just that we have
00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.380
to look at the business models of high performance
00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:14.740
you have to understand that that philosophy.
00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:18.819
of the business operations and optimal business
00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:22.059
processes ripple into architecture. That's our
00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.059
clients are often coming from that background.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.539
The more we understand that, the better we will
00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:28.799
be at delivering and growing our profession and
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.859
working with the builder. Also, you'll learn
00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:33.299
a lot about how to run your own practice. So
00:23:33.299 --> 00:23:36.799
those are some recommendations, some ideas. So.
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.019
And Bo, if someone is really connecting with
00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.119
you, they want to follow along, they want to
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:44.210
learn more about your work as a thought leader
00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:46.269
or as an architect, where can they find you online?
00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:51.509
We have a website, dromiacinvention .com and
00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:55.970
one word, one word, and you can email me at bedromiacatinvention
00:23:55.970 --> 00:24:02.130
.com, at dromiacinvention .com. So I think that's,
00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.930
yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming
00:24:04.930 --> 00:24:07.190
on Taking Back Monday. Thank you for helping
00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:09.910
us rethink about that whole building philosophy
00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:11.450
and how we might be able to apply that to our
00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:14.930
own. experiences. This was a really unique and
00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:16.809
interesting conversation. Thank you for having
00:24:16.809 --> 00:24:17.190
me.
