Wesley Pepper:
00:00:20
Hey everybody, this is Wesley Pepper and you're tuned into my podcast art lexica. Um, we are well into the year and if you are listening to this, I hope you are safe wherever you are. Um, I hope you are. I just hope you're keeping well, man. Um, you know, the times we are living here, let me just give a shout out to baobulb and Spudcaster for hosting me, you know, and producing my show. I think you guys do fantastic work. Um, and moving on to today's episode, um, Today is a bit more of a, uh, Of a masterclass type episode where we're going to look at, um, the role of Bitcoin in the arts. Um, if you can remember, like my first episode of the, year I uh, had Geno coming through where we spoke about, um, um, what bit coin can be used for, um, how to use it. And, uh, so he really just gave, uh, we just touched on various like things or what can be used and today when a jump or when, and dive a little bit deeper into it. So I've got two guests coming through. Uh, so I have Morris Nolan, um, You sort of going to be talking about, um, he's got the, um, he's got the information and the about, bitcoin he's also an entrepreneur So he's been working with it before. Um, and he knows how to use it. It's, uh, pros and cons, et cetera, et cetera. So we're unpacking that from him. And then I have Aleta Armstrong from YEBO! Contemporary Art Gallery, Eswatini, and, um, she pretty much represents, you know, um, the galleries, you know, um, the art of the art industry and then myself, you know, being an artist and a social entrepreneur, um, I'll be chipping in and giving them my, um, my input as well, because as you know, guys like, um, um, um, I'm very big on, um, on embracing technology. Um, and I think we should just be adding more and more conversations around it and seeing how we can use it, you know, um, moving forward, um, Because there are, because there are so many, um, I think, I think we haven't have to be honest with you. I don't think we've really touched the surface or scratch the surface, um, in terms of how we can use technology to better the art, um, the art industry, because as you know, most of, most of the art galleries, not talking about the top art galleries, um, you know, they're still using, um, I would say, uh, an old, um, methodology, you know, uh, you have a show, you invite people through, they come by they, buy the work you have a newsletter uh, um, you know, you send out a few emails and this and that and that, and that, and I think not just because of, um, the, um, the post COVID pandemic, uh, well, Plus the fourth industrial revolution is like, things are changing and they're changing fast. And I think these conversations that we're going to have today, are important. I think we learned a lot from them and I think we will, we should adapt to them, um, to all of these new changes because as you know, the only constant thing in life is change. And, um, we definitely need to get up on that. So definitely stay tuned for that. I hope you guys enjoy today's episode and I'll chat to you is at the end of this episode, at the end of this interview,
Spudcaster:
00:03:36
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Wesley Pepper:
00:03:52
Um, so today's episode, we're going to have a look at, uh, at Bitcoin and how it's been used in the arts, you know? Um, so the two guests, so, Aleta Armstrong all the way from from YEBO! art gallery. So she sort of represents, or it's going to give a voice, uh, from the, uh, from the arts, or I'd say, uh, the commerce side, you know, as coming from a gallery and Morris Nolan is the expert on Bitcoin as an entrepreneur. And, um, yeah, wouold you say an expert is that, um, is that accurate?
Morris Nolan:
00:04:27
I wouldn't say an expert. I know a few things about bitcoin there's still much to learn. Uh, it's a constantly evolving industry and, um, yeah, before it reaches mainstream adoption, there's so many, uh, you know, other things that need to come into play before that actually happens. But a few things are starting to take, uh, uh, you know, show themselves in the market itself So,
Wesley Pepper:
00:04:53
well it's definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely becoming more mainstream. Um, absolutely agree with that, which is also why I wanted to, um, I wanted to talk about this because just with the, um, just for the listeners, um, to give some insight and for the two guests. So, um, we did that episode, uh, with Geno in the beginning of the, uh, um, w but going where just touched or gave it like a very overview on like, what it can be used for what it can be used for that type of thing. How do you use it? And that sort of very brief and very, to the point and, um, You know, uh, um, I read up on basically everything, you know, I like to believe, um, you know, I keep is, uh, you know, up to speed with what's going on in the world and, um, I'm not too queued up on, um, the financial markets and others, especially how they work, they work. But, um, I know that it's, um, its value has been skyrocketing over the past few months. And, um, I also know that, um, um, um, local governments are trying to get rid of physical money. Um, I know that's a, it was the fourth industrial revolution and a bit of COVID because I say, you know, the virus can be transferred on the paper money and all of that. So, um, what that as like point, um, as point number one, point number two, another thing that I think is really exciting about this and what you just, why, what I'm, what I'm looking forward to discussing today is how, but we use in the arts. Um, there's one example that, um, um, that really stuck with me was the fact that like how you can use it for crowdfunding, um, where people can send you like a dollar or pound, um, um, and it won't, really, you know, they can, they can say small amounts of money, like, like that. Whereas now, you know, with a current banking system, you can't, or really it will just cost you a lot more money. And, um, I'm also aware of the fact that, um, uh, because of the arts, um, the art scene, um, changing, you know, like live shows and all of that, and the whole virtual world becoming more and more of a. I a thing because more and more shows are all gone virtual. Um, it's also interesting to see how one can monetize, um, streaming, um, um, and virtual, um, I would say, um, well not concerts, um, festivals, and, um, I'm very, I'm pretty, really interested to know how, um, how we can now we can use Bitcoin for that. And, um, I know that Aleta was also very interested to know she wants to learn. Um, and that is very cool. So thanks for that. This will be open, I guess, you know, um, and not just shutting out everything or to try and learn, and I think that's very, very, very cool. So, um, I think I'll just bring Morris in first, um, just to give us like a brief overview on like uh where's Bitcoin standing currently in South Africa, in other words, are people using it? What are they using it for? Um, and the potential behind that.
Morris Nolan:
00:07:59
Cool. Um, just as a disclaimer, I'm not a financial adviser by any stretch of the imagination. Um, but I have been looking at Bitcoin since late, 2014. And at the time, it really was nothing to look at. You know, it was just a bunch of techs, uh, you know, tech geeks, that, uh, we're looking at this particular cryptocurrency, there were use cases as a cryptocurrency, uh, prior to 2009, when it actually did come into, uh, um, you know, the tech forums, um, and obviously they tweaked it and made it a more user-friendly and kind of just ironed out all the issues and made it kind of immutable, um, you know, uh, In terms of it's ledger. So it's a public ledger, it's open source network um, it's all across the world and you know, you shut one thing down. Another one opens it's really difficult to shut down. Is it impossible to shut down. You know, people would always say, it's impossible to shut Bitcoin down. I don't think anything is impossible. I think we've always got to keep an open mind in that. And this is why I always mentioned to people. That, uh, they must always do their own research when it comes to certain things, because you get a bit of an understanding of exactly what the industry is. Yes. There might be somebody to hold your hand in respect to starting up your blockchain wallet, you know, putting you on to platforms like Luno, but for, and all these are the Zappos and cryptocurrency exchanges that are doing extremely, extremely well in the last five to 10, uh, when it comes to their profit margins on an annual basis. And so they just act as an intermediary between yourself and the bitcoin, you know, they just offer you the opportunity to actually purchase it. Um, Mainstream in terms of the industrial revolution. I think the industrial paycheck is quite redundant and at the stage, or has, is starting to become redundant. Okay. Um, these are why I say this is, I mean, you would save up your money or our mothers and fathers would save their money. Um, And we're able to purchase a house, you know, put their kids through school, uh, you know, do all that funding when it comes to life policies and things like that. These days in order for you to achieve that, you have to be earning in a certain bracket, put away life policies and save a little bit of change on a monthly basis. Um, you know, when people talk about financial freedom and looking for alternative sources of income, What they don't realize that they need to start at home. You know, how much are you keeping, first of all, how much money are you keeping on a monthly basis? That will determine how much, you know, wealth or money you start accumulating. It's not how much you actually make. You can make two, three, 4 million Rand a month, but, uh, if your expenses, uh, equates to that, so then you're not really making that much. So when I digress back to the industrial revolution and the fourth industrial revolution, it's an information technology age. And what people need to understand is. They've got these resources available to them in the form of information and these various sources of information, you know, 30 years ago, we would go and get a library card and that would be our access to information. You know, um, we would try and read as much books as we possibly could during the course of those two to three, four hours that we were at the library. These days, that process is marginalized down to a 20 minutes to 30 minutes, a YouTube video or media article, uh, or business insider article or whatever you find terms of these, uh, articles that are coming out on, on, on Bitcoin cryptocurrency, blockchain as a use case, um, which is quite fascinating in itself. Um, But there's, so there's a myriad of different sources of information that you can draw from in terms of understanding what Bitcoin is, what the blockchain network actually transcends and what that means for the future. And the moment you can correlate the three, you are able to position your business effectively. Especially when you've got understanding to a certain degree. Remember you don't really have to understand it fully. You don't have to understand exactly how the blockchain works from a technical perspective or how, bitcoin is, is, is transferred from my phone to your phone from a technical perspective, it's like email, you know, we don't really care how that email is sent. We just confirm we have received it. You know what I mean? So the embedded stuff behind the network is not really necessary. And what it can do for you in terms of, uh, um, you know, facilitating payment methods, um, It's quite, it's quite phenomenal. If I could spend a certain amount of Bitcoin to someone in Australia and they are able to receive that within 30 to 40 minutes, maximum a night without any third party intermediary, it's really a no brainer, but obviously the powers that be in mainstream media and, uh, all of these, uh, financial houses, um, your banks, you know, they've been running this financial system into the ground for the last. A hundred to 200 years and it's a consistent ending. You know, the ending is always consistent, always ends exactly the same way as it started Alot of stimulus a lot of promise, a lot of hope for, for, for things to come going forward. And then you find halfway into that maybe a 50 year period into that. It starts taking its decline in terms of higher taxes. You know, the rich are getting richer. The middle class is slowly dissipating, and eventually it gets to a point where, uh, you know, we in 2020 and the COVID-19, um, gives the world economy a death blow, and then people attribute You know, the, the, in the collapse in the, in the monetary system to, uh, covid. Yeah. But when you actually look at it from an in-depth perspective and you look at the stock market versus the actual economy, and this is job losses, uh, industries being, uh, uh, becoming insolvent, uh, you know, companies just not being able to manage and letting their, their staff go. I mean, we've had record breaking, uh, unemployment numbers, uh, in the last seven to eight months, close to a year. But a lot of people don't realize is that that has got nothing to do with the stock market. So your economy has got zero, has got nothing to do with that actual stock market. And when I say this, people, people always, people always tend to, um, you know, have this argument with me and, uh, I simply just refer them back to simple fundamentals: is the stock market doing really, really well at this moment in time? Yes it is. Is the economy doing really bad at this time? Yes, it is. I mean, you've got interest rates. Uh, we got, um, you know, government with these stimulus packages, uh, the biggest cash, heist of all time in the form of PPE corruption um, and all these tenders going out And it's not happening just in South Africa. It's a global thing, this is in the UK, in the US all on these PPE corruption, uh, like people are dying and you've got the ability to supply them with equipment in order for them to survive. Why then are you taking, uh, you know, either the money from that and not being able to supply the other PPE equipment.
Wesley Pepper:
00:16:55
Okay.
Morris Nolan:
00:16:55
But let me digress back to how that correlates with Bitcoin and why that comes, comes a revolutionized currency. Cryptocurrency people would say it's like gold people would benchmark it against that. And they would even argue the fact that gold is a better storage of wealth because of its 5000 year history. And I completely understand that. Uh, and it's true in what they say, but the argument is 5,000 years ago there wasn't, um, There weren't any tablets. They weren't any smartphones There weren't any PC's. There wasn't any, there was no internet, you know, we didn't really fully understand the possibilities of what the internet and how it's able to connect us in the whole of Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, and all these other social media platforms that enable us including zoom and this particular platform that we're on right now. Um, And so how does that all tie together when it comes to cryptocurrency? I'm not saying, bitcoin is the answer myriad of different cryptocurrencies out there. Sure. But Bitcoin seems to be the one that a lot of people are taking to at the moment, I would encourage people to always look at different kinds of use cases like against the different kinds of coins that are out there. Like Ethereum for example, is more contract kind of based. So your insurance industries and your car industries, uh, um, you know, your financial institutions are more looking towards. Uh, implementing use cases around that kind of Ethereum blockchain. Um, Bitcoin on the other hand offers allows me that the normal, uh, average Joe, the opportunity of taking out my 50 Rand that I have in my pocket and, uh, signing up on, uh, on a blockchain network, um, and going onto a platform called Luno and, uh, putting my money on there that 50 Rand. And then let's say for argument's sake, I put my R50 into bitcoin in December of 2020. And by then I think it was about 16 or 12, just broke 15, 16 there. I stand to be corrected, but. Within two months, it, it pushed itself up to, uh, an all time high of, uh, I believe it was 52 or 54,000 us dollars, which equated, if you want to look at it from a Rand's perspective, I think it was at a hundred and something thousand and jumped from a hundred and something thousand all the way to 750,000 Rand right. Now that margin in between that is, it's quite, it's quite large. Yes. It's volatile right now. And people are obviously, and this is the reason why it's not mainstream, because if I give you Bitcoin today, you have to immediately exchange it into the Rand or USD or your, or whatever currency represents your country, uh, immediately. And you have to be able to do that within an hour or so, of it actually changing because it, because of its volatility, you know what I mean? So yes, implement the, the Bitcoin, uh, or, um, you know, use case in your platforms, but always have in the back of your mind, the possibility of volatility and volatility can either go up or the, or the opposite direction, right. It's not guaranteed until it becomes mainstream now, will it become mainstream? Is the question that a lot of people keep asking, you know, are they going to, um, you know, if I've been running a trillion dollar $500 trillion, uh, organization in the form of the monetary system and utilizing banks as my distributor's or that Fiat currency for the last two to 300 years, I'm not just going to give up my power in that respect. I'm going to put up a bit of a fight. Am I not?
Wesley Pepper:
00:21:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Morris Nolan:
00:21:31
Or I'm going to find a way to implement my oldest system on the new system. That's why they are taking their own time in terms of trying to understand and the, and the fundamental problem with the banks, the ideologies that this is a de-centralized currency. It's not central itself. You can't, there's no one point that you can go to and say, Oh, well, my Bitcoin is stored there. You know, it's so de-centralized, and what they're trying to implement is a centralized kind of thing, where yes, we're going to use cryptocurrency, but we'll be in charge of it. And at any point in time that you fail to pay us the cryptocurrency owed to us, we are able to either go into your account, stop your transactions. You know, there's no, there's no freedom in that. You know, and I think what people are starting to realize is that autonomy and, and, and the freedom to either do what you need to do or manage your own funds as opposed to having a third party intermediary, do that for you. Like, if I want to send money to Canada, I've got to use Western union. Yeah, but Western union immediately takes 30%, of that particular sum, uh, and the person receiving the money and he sees that it's 40% less than what they actually were supposed to get. So for me, there's no need for that. There's no need for somebody to verify your email before I send it to you. You know what I mean? If I want to send you an email I need to be able to have the freedom of doing that. You know what I mean, without anybody verifying or checking in.
Wesley Pepper:
00:23:22
Okay. Okay. I get that. My brother, um, um, let me actually bring, Aleta in over here, uh I get that, um, Aleta do you have any questions? Um, I have a few, but I wanted to see if you. Um, if you have any questions.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:23:35
Yeah. I mean, I, I was, I've been obviously reading, um, about all the cryptocurrency. It's very, and it's very interesting and it's really nice to be part of the conversation. And I think it's obviously an on an ongoing learning process and the more you read, the more, it becomes less unfamiliar. Um, but yeah, I get that. Cause I think some people are interested in it in terms of. Investment or profit. And especially because it's had such high you know having high profits, but if you want to use it as a payment, um, like say for example, for a gallery and we wanted to include, um, the people could pay with cryptocurrency, then that's, I suppose the question of it fluctuating so much, you know, at least I know that if I put a dollar price it's okay. I mean, it can fluctuate, something could happen, but you've got a sort of general idea of, of doing that. So I think that would be the thing is. Um, how do you price things when it fluctuates so much the value?
Wesley Pepper:
00:24:41
Uh, good question. Um, Uh, Morris I actually just have, um, I just have, uh, two, two other questions that you can take that you can answer. And, um, and this is just for, um, can you explain to us what is a blockchain and, um, just for the listeners, like what is, what is open source? You know? So, um, if you can tackle a, Aleta's, question first and then move into, um, those questions.
Morris Nolan:
00:25:07
I'll start with the first question. Um, how do you, how do you implement blockchain without it's um, you know, affecting the margins in, in, in, in layman's terms? Um, either positively or negatively, because from a tax perspective and from a, from a, uh, you know, tax returns kind of perspective as an organization, running a business, um, how do you manage that with the volatility that it's been experiencing in the last 10 years. You obviously have to implement certain situations or certain systems that take the bitcoin. And then immediately transfer it into the US dollar value. I looked at your website and I see that most of your stuff is obviously valued in, uh, US dollar. Um, it is stable for now, and which is great, but what you need to implement is the minute that a person pays within, uh, you know, the Bitcoins value of that us dollar. You need to be able to implement a system that transfers or changes that bitcoin immediately into the US dollar. You know, or transfer it, transfers it back into US dollars immediately within the hour. So you have to have platforms and systems and things like, uh, in place. It's a very difficult, um, process to, to, to implement. And it's quite expensive in itself because it's still new. Uh, but anything that's new will be old very, very soon. So there's a lot of, I mean, it's like, you know, Your WhatsApp. And then all of a sudden you've got signal, you got Telegram So, so, so whatever software comes out. There's always somebody producing an alternative and most of the time the alternative is sometimes better, but case in point is my space versus Facebook Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. My space was a great use concept and it was a great idea, but there was something missing and then Facebook took that and made it into what it is right now, but there were also, uh, open-minded enough to understand that it's a constantly evolving software because it's software it, can evolve. And this is the same thing with, uh, correlating Bitcoin to yours, to your US dollar valuation of your painting. Uh, you simply adjust it in that respect. So you've got, uh, you've got a. If you were to go onto the internet right now and say what's one Bitcoin, uh, versus one, one US dollar, it will give you a, uh, it will give you a number. You need to implement a system that actually does that on your platform that says, it's going to cost you X amount of Bitcoin, which will equate to 600 US dollars. And whether he pays with US or, or, or Bitcoin, that system will immediately transfer the Bitcoin into US dollars by selling it. So by partnering with exchanges like Luno or Phoenix, or, you know, um, you know, all these different Zappos and, you know, uh, platforms that offer you the ability to exchange cash for crypto, uh, would be, uh, would be the first start. You know, you start asking the questions in that respect. Is it possible? Uh, we've got a lot of AI security, cryptocurrency security, uh, people that we are dealing with that we can refer you to, uh, that can assist you in that respect when it comes to implementing these platforms. I hope that answers the question,
Aleta Armstrong:
00:29:04
yeah. I just wanted to add a bit to that. I think obviously, you know, since we're not using cryptocurrencies at the moment, but looking into it that, you know, in dealing with banks and their delightful bank charges that add up at the end of the week, the end of every month and you're like, shit. Um, so what are the charges? Because, okay. Yeah, if you're doing it person to person and you're transferring cryptocurrencies and you've got that set up, but if you're using a third party platform to assist with, you know, changing it into dollars and then using that, do those charges, are they still a much lower than when you're dealing with banks?
Morris Nolan:
00:29:42
In some instances, but in other instances, they they're actually higher than the bank charges. So for example, if I were to take out or withdraw a thousand Rand capital gains on my BTC, uh, it would cost me 80 Rand to withdraw that, you know, it's, uh, you've always got to take that into consideration when pricing your, your paintings. Uh, especially if you're going to put them in a Bitcoin valuation, you've always got to put an extra a hundred to 200 Rand or that equivalent to Bitcoin, uh, on top of what you are actually, uh, selling the painting for, uh, sometimes it'll cost you, you $20, R20, then. Uh, or sometimes it'll cost you a hundred Rand. It all depends on how much you're actually transferring. You. Remember these third party intermediaries, like Luno, this is where they make the money. So every time you transact, they're taking a little piece of what it is that you're transacting. The minimalistic transaction fees come in. The form of, I have my own Bitcoin wallet. So Luno is a platform that allows me to associate my bitcoin wallet with it, right. So I take Bitcoin out of my wallet and I throw it onto the Luno platform. I exchange my, my, um, my Bitcoin for either cash. And then I transfer it back into my normal bank account or whatever the case may be and vice versa if I want to do, if I want to do the purchasing of BTC. The the, the minimalistic charges only occur between peer to peer. Uh, transactions. If I send it, if I've got a wallet and Wesley, you have a wallet and I send you 10,000, US dollars worth of Bitcoin. The transaction fee in that respect is going to cost me a certain amount of Bitcoin, which in US dollars would probably be equivalent to maybe one to two US dollars in transaction fees. So that's where there's differences. In terms of, uh, bank charges compared to your third party, intermediary charges like Luno and Zappa and Bitfinex and all these others. Yeah. So yes, you are going to incur a little bit of a cost. Uh, it might be more, it might be less, uh, the valuation of that would be determined by the volatility in the market at the time, or there is a certain benchmark or threshold between
Wesley Pepper:
00:32:35
interesting.
Morris Nolan:
00:32:36
If you transfer a thousand, uh, between a thousand and 10 thousand, it's going to cost you 80 to 80, 80 Rand from anything from 10,000 onwards is going to cost you 150. rand, but it won't exceed, uh, exorbitant fees. Like if I were to make a 350,000 Rand transaction on my credit card, uh, it'll literally cost you something to the value of six or seven thousand to transact that amount of money. Do you know what I mean? So there's a massive difference in terms of, uh, the pricing, when it comes to the exchange rates, uh, when it comes to you purchasing and, and changing that money from BTC into, into, into US dollars.
Wesley Pepper:
00:33:21
Aleta are you covered?
Aleta Armstrong:
00:33:24
Yeah on that bit. I mean, there's obviously still lots to, lots to kind of think about and look, I mean, I'm thinking where I'm thinking as a, when I was reading about it before, like artists and galleries was it's, it's a new way, which okay. Some galleries, but I think more, the ones I was looking at seem to be in the UK or the States doing it. I don't know about South Africa, but obviously zero going on with cryptocurrencies. Um, but so you kind of looking at it. So if there are, I think there's always to give people different options. You know, if you've got cryptocurrency, you want to use it, you want to buy some art. It's good to be able to offer that service. I think where I would look at it on behalf of artists is what are the fees? Because one of the thing is you're trying to like, make it easier. So you don't have to pay so much to banks. That's what would interest me
Wesley Pepper:
00:34:21
Morris can you come in there, please.
Morris Nolan:
00:34:26
Other platforms like PayPal, for example, and, um, you know, Tesla, you know, purchasing's, uh, to the value of 1.5 billion US dollars worth of Bitcoin. And then you see all these, uh, JP Morgan uh, hedge funds. And you also see, uh, one of the biggest, uh, payment systems in the form of PayPal, actually investing in Bitcoin and offering that as a, as a way of payment, then you should. You start to see the signs. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's all about reading in between the lines and being plugged into the industry in order. So you position yourself as strategically going forward Um, I also, then I would, I would look at places like PayPal and what they've done in terms of implementing BTC as a means of payment on their platform. Do you know what I mean? Because what we've just discussed they probably would have already started implementing that by the time you transfer your BTC in there. Yes. There's marginal, uh, difference in terms of, because of the volatility. I mean, an hour later Bitcoin might go from 47,000 to 34,000, like a 45% to 30% drop. But at the same time, it could, it could have the opposite effect. So you could actually make a hell of a lot more. So you, uh, the systems in that regard are the other ones that that would, would manage, uh, the transfer and the movement, because if you were to do it manually from that perspective, transferring, uh, you know, manually doing your, your ledger, uh, with maybe a thousand payments coming in, it would, it would take you quite a long time. But if it, if it's automated then, and if PayPal have looked at it and said, well, you know, it is something that we actually, uh, implementing, uh, then that might be a first, uh, point of call, you know, point of call when it comes to understand, uh, how that correlates and how that would work. But like you say, let's say it is, uh, it is, uh, it is something that you have to start offering, uh, your clientele base because the older generation is starting to, to, to, to do, to move itself out of the corporate industry. And what you're starting to realize is that the younger generation is taking over.
Wesley Pepper:
00:36:58
Um, that's interesting. That's, that's, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Um, I guess, I guess that actually leads me to like a follow-up question. Like, um, if we want to start implementing this, where do we, where and how do we start, you know, um, because I also know that there's also an option of, um, if one has enough, um, Um, traffic on your, uh, on your, um, on your website, you can, you can use those figures. I'm not sure how, but to sort of start your own cryptocurrency. So, so I guess my question is like, um, if we want to start, where and how do we, um, how do we, how do we go about it?
Morris Nolan:
00:37:37
I would basically start at home. I would start using it personally yourself. So create a block chain wallet. Um, you know, be willing to lose maybe two, 300 rand, uh, you know, put, put two, 300 rand into your wallet, understand how, what the, what the traffic signs tell you what, you know, what the, what the actual lay of the land is. How do I go from point A to point B to point Z? And how do I come back from that? That would be your first task, because I can explain it as much as I could possibly try and explain it in layman's terms and how simple it is. It's very, very easy. And it's like, all these guys will tell you, no, it's a walk in the park, but you know, there's actual buttons that you have to click on. The one, two, three process is there, but how do you know which button to press? If you're looking at a bunch of items, So you need to understand exactly how to first, uh, open a Bitcoin wallet, how to manage that wallet in itself, or to take money out of it and put money back into it. Right, and what platforms are user-friendly for you because Luno might work for me, but, bitfinex might work for you better, you know, because you like the, you know, the different kinds of, uh, dashboard or the different kinds of use case that it offers, or the different kinds of alternative coins that it is offering like monero, cardone and, uh, you know, tether, uh, as opposed to what Luno's offering you in the form of steller, uh, you know, uh, ripple and ethereum, BTC cash.
Wesley Pepper:
00:39:24
Geez. I didn't realize there was, there was, there was so many, um, um, just from a South African perspective, which, um, which of which of these platforms do you think will suit, will suit us best you know, from a, from an African creative, um, um, um, perspective.
Morris Nolan:
00:39:39
Look, I think you you'd want to work with something that's already been mainstream. Now. I think they've got the ads on TV. I was watching the soccer game the other day. And, uh, you know, that you get those ads in between the games themselves and it was a discovery ad that came on. And then after that, uh, there was a Luno ad that actually came on. And what they actually said on there was, was something that we've been talking about since Well, I've been talking about it since 2014, when I finally realized that, Oh my God, this is actually something that is going to be in the future. Whether it's five to 10 or 20 years from now, you can't ignore something like this. Um, and what it actually said on the ad was, and I'll quote it verbatim when you, if you are starting to see Bitcoin on TV, that means it's a good time to start buying it. Yeah. I mean, these are people that, advocated against bitcoin for the better part of seven years and said it's a Ponzi scheme, I mean, Bruce Whitfield and all these other guys came on the money show and they spoke, about it in such a negative connotation. Am I saying it's a positive thing? No, I'm just keeping an open mind. I'm saying guys, we've been riding a horse and cart. Um, chariot for the last hundred years here's, a Maserati that's come with a V6 engine. Why would you not take it for a test drive at least? You know, why would you write it off and say, Oh, that's terrible. Did Dunlop not say that to the horse and chariot industry back in, uh, the, the turn of the 1900 century when he decided to put in rubber tires and they were still using leather on their cart, they wrote him off and he became one of the biggest tire manufacturers in the world. And still is one of the prominent ones today. They ignore Tesla in that respect when he came up with an electric car as sustainable energy going forward and lo and behold, right now, Tesla's market cap value. bests the entire motor industry market. And that includes Toyota.
Wesley Pepper:
00:42:00
That's unbelievable. Actually, I read that last year. That's unbelievable
Morris Nolan:
00:42:04
Yeah. So when you start listening to others' perspectives instead of, you know, doing your own research and finding out for yourself, uh, and, and, and, and don't take it from a bias perspective, don't take my, uh, understanding of BTC and say, I've heard it from this guy. Therefore it is the gospel truth. Um, go and do your own research and do it for a very long time and, and speak to people that have actually been using it and speak to industries that are starting to think about it. Um, And then start putting the dots together because when you connect the dots, the light comes on, you know, and then that's. Yeah. So I always take a, um, not a biased or, um, you know, I always try to be on the fence when I'm giving people advice when it comes to crypto, because yes, you can lose a lot of money. Yes. You can make a lot of money. How you do that. All to be determined. My, how much understanding you have of that industry, you know, you can't just simply go and buy gold for examples, uh, without understanding the processes it takes to buy.
Wesley Pepper:
00:43:19
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:43:24
Can I add something, please,
Wesley Pepper:
00:43:26
please. Come in.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:43:29
Cause, I mean, you know, when I was reading about it, it was quite interesting. And I was also reading about how countries like Zimbabwe, Venezuela, obviously having problems with banks, governments are turning more to obviously using cryptocurrencies. And then, you know, you guys are in South Africa where you're way ahead of us, despite us not being very far away from you in Eswatini where, you know, the banks are South African here. So we, we don't have PayPal. We can't use Instagram shopping. We can't use this, we can't use that. So for us the options, um, and it's come up on a lot of social media platforms and I've been kind of discussing it as well. Is that. You know, we're going to, you got to go to the bank. They're like, okay, you could open a dollar account somewhere. It's EFT, you know? And we, we had like last year, you know, obviously with COVID and you're trying to do shipping and the banks are telling you, tell someone to go for a walk to their bank, physically to do a transfer. And you're like, dear Lord, guys, this is just like, not working plus all the challenges that come with it. So I think for, for countries that are kind of out of the loop, you know, and then you, you will discuss, I mean, I think that a lot of people here, we've been talking to government to banks, you know, and there's a whole thing of, Oh, it's just none of it's possible. And it's like, you're too small, so no, we're not going to invest. So we're not investing in, in technology. So I'm using Um, a Kenyan company at the moment. So I can do credit card payments rather than people must go physically to a bank. So where, I'm feeling right now. And when I look at all, the changes that are happening is if you're an entrepreneur or creative person, you've got to be innovative and you've got to look. So you go and talk to the government and banks and say, Hey guys, you know, this isn't working that isn't working, nothing's going to grow, we can't sell, we can't do this. Um, if they're not responding and listening, then I'm also sort of seeing this as, as an opportunity. It's like, they're missing the boat. And then they're thinking, you know, just be quiet, just continue this old fashioned way. Let's make a lot of money out of you or you'll do no business, but who cares? So I think and if I'm looking at the creative industries, Um, you know, people still haven't think of now, are you going to go and rent a building? Where are you going to open your business? And you're like, dear Lord, guys, you can operate from home so long as you've got your phone, you know, but you need the payment options. So it's all fine to be creative and share stuff on social media, if you're in the creative industries. Um, but then how are you going to get paid? So countries like or Zimbabwe, you know, where it's not functioning and we can't have all these systems. Okay. You can transfer it. You know, you've got sort of Ewallet and we can kind of transfer bits to each other, but not overseas. Um, then I'm the, so I am feeling just from that point of view that this is very interesting. That's what I want to do.
Wesley Pepper:
00:46:28
I can check. Mo, you want to come in,
Morris Nolan:
00:46:32
And I completely agree when it comes to that, you guys are on the ground and you know, exactly what's going on on the ground. And when you take that from a numbers perspective and put it to the banks and say, look, our margins have dropped by 5%. Uh, you know, this year and 5% to your industry, uh, could mean, uh, you know, the breaking point, uh, you know, live or die kind of scenario, right. I, if we go beyond that, it would be detrimental for your business, right. But what they're looking at is they're saying that 5% as a, as a marginal, cost that can, be recovered over a certain period of time, even in light of the, uh, you know, uh, economics will tell you that it will always cover it because the demand will go up and this and that Yeah. But if, if, if, if, uh, economics is anything to go by, becomes null and void with. The stock market, when the stocks go up and the economy goes down that throws my economics out the window because everything, they said in there is in direct contradiction to what is actually happening right now. And yes, you're right. Aleta when you say you've at least tried to go to them and say to them, listen, here's a problem. Can we not implement this? And they're like, no, what Bitcoin actually, and blockchain actually offers you the individual. It was never meant for industries. It was never meant for business. It was actually meant for peer to peer transaction, because you would find in areas like yours, that you're in right now. There's a lot of unbanked people. There's a lot of people that do not have bank accounts. But they have smartphones. don't they?, My granny's got a smart phone. My, my, my granny's grandmother has a smart phone.
Wesley Pepper:
00:48:27
That's a good point.
Morris Nolan:
00:48:28
WhatsApp and Facebook. So on that smartphone, that actual smartphone now becomes your bank and it answers the fundamental point of how do we get paid now? How do we get paid? What if I've got to, if I've got a block chain wallet, and I've got a piece of art and I've got a place that I can put it on, which is your platform? Can I not put my blockchain uh wallet on there? And then correlate that with my, with my, with my painting, and then just wait for somebody to, to make a payment or to suggest that a payment is going through. And then they have to confirm from their side, whether or not they will be able to send that. Or how long it will say, you know, like when you're buying something from take a lot, it takes you three to five days shipping and all that kind of jazz, and you've got it. You've got a cart, you've got an exit cart and things like that. Where, you, uh, you know, that you made a purchase towards it. Right. That's basically, uh, what they've been and I know it looks like, Oh, but if that's the only use case, uh, that bitcoin is going to come in with uh, or you know, artists that actually help us. But think about it from a, from a compounding interest, I'd rather get my people to buy my paintings at a certain amount of money. Then wait for that one person, to pay 600 for that. But yeah. And allow those five people access to me in the form of they've got blockchain wallet. I have block, I've got a blockchain wallet. It's like a barter exchange. It's, it's almost like going back in history and saying, I have a blanket. That's going to keep you warm during the winter, but you have got, a gun that could help me the expert at hunting, find the bird. So you keep warm, give me the gun I'll go and do the, the killing and, and, and you you've given me more in use values than you've taken from me in cash value kind of scenario.
Wesley Pepper:
00:50:36
Interesting.
Morris Nolan:
00:50:39
So, so why is that important? Because when you look at how many people are unbanked in the world, the numbers are staggering, And this is a direct implication to things like poverty. So, so attach that to your proposals or attach that to your concept and say a portion of this particular painting and the money that's going to go from this. Will be sent to a charity organization or associate yourself with, with a, uh, you know, house that that helps young uh, women get on their feet if they've been abused or, uh, you know, sold or whatever the case may be, you know, associate yourself with a charity organization because it starts with that kind of process. The secret of living is actually giving us, instead of just taking taking taking, like what the banks do to you when the minute, you go there. They charging you literally to deposit your money and they charging you to take your money. They charging you to actually send you a statement. They charge you to, um, target for I'm in the cost per copy game. You know, I do office automation and it costs me. A minimum of let's say 7 cents a copy to print out a black A4 copy at a 5% page coverage. Right they're telling you that little slip that you've printed. The art of the ATM is going to cost you effectively R3.50 Now.
Wesley Pepper:
00:52:09
That's ridiculous. I never knew that gee whizz I never knew that.
Morris Nolan:
00:52:16
So they're not making, they're not just making money. They're making money on top of money on top of money,
Wesley Pepper:
00:52:22
yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Morris Nolan:
00:52:25
They are able to charge you 25% interest on your credit. And then offer you a savings plan, which will give you 6% after 12 months. It just doesn't make sense, you know, from a mathematics perspective. Absolutely. Yes. You're giving me money, but meet me half way. Don't meet me 10% of the way. And then want me to run that 90%, you know what I mean? Because as an entrepreneur what I'm doing is I'm facilitating a position in my organization, or I am In your case Aleta, you're facilitating artists in your organization and allowing them the platform, because let's be honest, I might be fantastic at drawing, uh, you know, you know, a painting or portrait, or I might be a great as Rembrandt himself but at the end of the day, I have no concept of business. And I don't know, how to correlate my work and, and how to get that and how to get money from that. And you know, you come on as a platform and say, we can, we can offer you that platform. What do you have to do? Simply submit your artwork. And we will be able to sell it across the vast amount of viewers or subscribers that we have. And you never know, somebody might love, your artwork your painting to a point where they take your whole collection. Um, but here's the platform that allows that now that's, that's, that's helping that's one anothering each other Yes, you are making. I mean, everybody's going to make something at the end of the day, but don't, don't, don't be like the banks and take every single thing. If I ask you a question. You know what I mean
Aleta Armstrong:
00:54:12
No. I think that that way of operating is getting unpalatable for a lot of us. And I think, you know, the pandemic has brought that out. I mean, I know, I mean, in South Africa, a lot of businesses on their knees, the creative industry is, is suffering. You know, artists, are, Broke galleries are broke. Everyone's like hustling and, you know, doing whatever to, to stay alive, but then it made it it's forcing you to, to adapt and just start thinking of, of a new way of doing business. Really? Cause this, some of the ways are just not working.
Wesley Pepper:
00:54:47
Mm. Mm mm, no, I agree. I agree with both of you's, there actually, um, actually I have to, I have to come in here. Um, we've actually, we've actually gone way past the time I usually allocate Okay. And like I'm sitting and listening, I'm thinking like there's also much more to discuss man. Like we should definitely do another follow up on here. Um, and sort of, and sort of just pick up like, um, like from where we left of, um, because there's still a few other few more things that I still want to cover. Um, I just think, yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, because you're because I think you were so, right. Like, um, um, the creative industry is on its knees, and, um, Yeah. And here in South Africa, like it's more of a, I'm generalizing here is more of a finger pointing. You said, she said type of very little solutions going around. That's why I think like episodes, like this is so important. Um, and, um, to, to, to start this dialogue is very, very important. So, um, I think we must definitely do a follow-up on, on, on, on all of this man. Um, modest, uh, thanks a lot, my brother, um, in closing, do you have anything to say just to conclude?
Morris Nolan:
00:56:01
I think that you're right. I think as well as you. In terms of us having another discussion so much to postulate about because, and the only way we're going to get to a solution is if we actually respond to having these hard conversations, and I know it seems abit radical and disruptive in its nature, but at the end of the day, you guys have an industry. That needs to survive as, so do I and so do you Wesley, I mean, we literally, uh, had to do something during the pandemic making way for you to put yourself out there. So I think more conversations need to take place. I think a lot more focus groups. I think a little from your side, I think you need to look at your database of art producers and start asking and start asking them. So I think we should definitely have these conversations more.
Wesley Pepper:
00:57:09
No, absolutely. Absolutely. We can and
Morris Nolan:
00:57:11
and start talking about them in your guys' industry, because like I said, that industrial age is over now. People don't realize that 1900 centuries to 2000, uh, is over now. Uh, that was the industrial age. Now we are moving towards a more information technology age, there's information. And you combine that with technology creates another industry. So in essence, there's actually industries within this industry that we are going into now that have not been discovered yet. And they come from reinventing the wheel, like the art industry or the it industry, or the consummables industry. And you see if Uber is anything to go by, Uber eats was, was such a delight during lockdown. You know what I mean? All these physical things started popping up and becoming use case. So I think there's a lot more that can be stimulated, especially from Africa. I'm going to be honest.
Wesley Pepper:
00:58:14
Hey, my brother, I'm with you there.
Morris Nolan:
00:58:16
So, and I think there's, we've been lacking in that respect. And I think because we were moving into another industrial, uh, into another age, that being the information technology age, I think we all need to start talking about this.
Wesley Pepper:
00:58:31
For sure, man, for sure. Um, Aleta do you have anything to say in closing?
Aleta Armstrong:
00:58:37
No. I mean, I agreed with everything that Morris said there I think what I want to do is talk more. I mean, we all do care about the creative industry, lots going on, but I think discuss this more and find out some more questions and what people need and how to start, how to start working together, you know, like, yeah, we all, we, all, some of us, I represent artists where there's other people in the creative industries, whether it's the music sector or poetry, different aspects or filmmakers, but we need to also, I think get together and start lobbying, you know, and also start and helping each other. So like, Hey guys, how about we try this? Or we do that. Or you lobby for that. But if we're all just sitting at home, freaking out quietly, I don't think that's going to be very helpful. So I think practical advice that we can give people. Would be great.
Wesley Pepper:
00:59:26
Fantastic, man. Um, thanks both of you for coming through, man. Um, it's, it's unbelievable. I'm watching, looking at this time clock here and like, I still think we should at least, um, yeah, we must definitely um, uh, set up another episode. Um, I'll get on that in the, in the next week for sure. Um, and see what other questions arise and I'll share it with both of you and we can sort of just schedule, you know, see when we are all free available and then take it from there. But thanks a lot guys for coming through, man. And, um, I'll be in touch with you both
Aleta Armstrong:
01:00:01
Thanks
Wesley Pepper:
01:00:02
guys. Cheers, man.
Morris Nolan:
01:00:04
Bye.
Spudcaster:
01:00:05
Thank you for listening to this spudcaster podcast. Don't forget to like share and subscribe.
Wesley Pepper:
01:00:12
Hey, um, thanks a lot for my two guests. I think they were actually fantastic. Um, and like you said, we should definitely, definitely do another follow up on this. There's just so much more to be, um, to, um, to discuss. Um, so yeah, man look forward to more outstanding, um, top ranking content, um, on this podcast. And, uh, I have to give a shout out firstly, to Baobulb and Spudcaster for hosting me. I think they do fantastic work, you know, and, um, check us out on all these streaming platforms, man. And don't, don't forget to give us all your. Comments and feedback. Um, and it'll be interesting to know what you guys have to say about, um, this episode, if you want to know anything or any, uh, if you have any questions or comments. Yeah. I mean, just send it to me via text. Uh, so, or on Facebook or Instagram, and it's all wesley pepper, you know, um, just search, for me you'll find me and I'll take all this stuff and I'll present it to my guests, um, in a future episode. So thanks a lot guys for coming through and look forward to more outstanding content from Wesley Pepper's Art Lexica Thank you very much.
00:00:20
Hey everybody, this is Wesley Pepper and you're tuned into my podcast art lexica. Um, we are well into the year and if you are listening to this, I hope you are safe wherever you are. Um, I hope you are. I just hope you're keeping well, man. Um, you know, the times we are living here, let me just give a shout out to baobulb and Spudcaster for hosting me, you know, and producing my show. I think you guys do fantastic work. Um, and moving on to today's episode, um, Today is a bit more of a, uh, Of a masterclass type episode where we're going to look at, um, the role of Bitcoin in the arts. Um, if you can remember, like my first episode of the, year I uh, had Geno coming through where we spoke about, um, um, what bit coin can be used for, um, how to use it. And, uh, so he really just gave, uh, we just touched on various like things or what can be used and today when a jump or when, and dive a little bit deeper into it. So I've got two guests coming through. Uh, so I have Morris Nolan, um, You sort of going to be talking about, um, he's got the, um, he's got the information and the about, bitcoin he's also an entrepreneur So he's been working with it before. Um, and he knows how to use it. It's, uh, pros and cons, et cetera, et cetera. So we're unpacking that from him. And then I have Aleta Armstrong from YEBO! Contemporary Art Gallery, Eswatini, and, um, she pretty much represents, you know, um, the galleries, you know, um, the art of the art industry and then myself, you know, being an artist and a social entrepreneur, um, I'll be chipping in and giving them my, um, my input as well, because as you know, guys like, um, um, um, I'm very big on, um, on embracing technology. Um, and I think we should just be adding more and more conversations around it and seeing how we can use it, you know, um, moving forward, um, Because there are, because there are so many, um, I think, I think we haven't have to be honest with you. I don't think we've really touched the surface or scratch the surface, um, in terms of how we can use technology to better the art, um, the art industry, because as you know, most of, most of the art galleries, not talking about the top art galleries, um, you know, they're still using, um, I would say, uh, an old, um, methodology, you know, uh, you have a show, you invite people through, they come by they, buy the work you have a newsletter uh, um, you know, you send out a few emails and this and that and that, and that, and I think not just because of, um, the, um, the post COVID pandemic, uh, well, Plus the fourth industrial revolution is like, things are changing and they're changing fast. And I think these conversations that we're going to have today, are important. I think we learned a lot from them and I think we will, we should adapt to them, um, to all of these new changes because as you know, the only constant thing in life is change. And, um, we definitely need to get up on that. So definitely stay tuned for that. I hope you guys enjoy today's episode and I'll chat to you is at the end of this episode, at the end of this interview,
Spudcaster:
00:03:36
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Wesley Pepper:
00:03:52
Um, so today's episode, we're going to have a look at, uh, at Bitcoin and how it's been used in the arts, you know? Um, so the two guests, so, Aleta Armstrong all the way from from YEBO! art gallery. So she sort of represents, or it's going to give a voice, uh, from the, uh, from the arts, or I'd say, uh, the commerce side, you know, as coming from a gallery and Morris Nolan is the expert on Bitcoin as an entrepreneur. And, um, yeah, wouold you say an expert is that, um, is that accurate?
Morris Nolan:
00:04:27
I wouldn't say an expert. I know a few things about bitcoin there's still much to learn. Uh, it's a constantly evolving industry and, um, yeah, before it reaches mainstream adoption, there's so many, uh, you know, other things that need to come into play before that actually happens. But a few things are starting to take, uh, uh, you know, show themselves in the market itself So,
Wesley Pepper:
00:04:53
well it's definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely becoming more mainstream. Um, absolutely agree with that, which is also why I wanted to, um, I wanted to talk about this because just with the, um, just for the listeners, um, to give some insight and for the two guests. So, um, we did that episode, uh, with Geno in the beginning of the, uh, um, w but going where just touched or gave it like a very overview on like, what it can be used for what it can be used for that type of thing. How do you use it? And that sort of very brief and very, to the point and, um, You know, uh, um, I read up on basically everything, you know, I like to believe, um, you know, I keep is, uh, you know, up to speed with what's going on in the world and, um, I'm not too queued up on, um, the financial markets and others, especially how they work, they work. But, um, I know that it's, um, its value has been skyrocketing over the past few months. And, um, I also know that, um, um, um, local governments are trying to get rid of physical money. Um, I know that's a, it was the fourth industrial revolution and a bit of COVID because I say, you know, the virus can be transferred on the paper money and all of that. So, um, what that as like point, um, as point number one, point number two, another thing that I think is really exciting about this and what you just, why, what I'm, what I'm looking forward to discussing today is how, but we use in the arts. Um, there's one example that, um, um, that really stuck with me was the fact that like how you can use it for crowdfunding, um, where people can send you like a dollar or pound, um, um, and it won't, really, you know, they can, they can say small amounts of money, like, like that. Whereas now, you know, with a current banking system, you can't, or really it will just cost you a lot more money. And, um, I'm also aware of the fact that, um, uh, because of the arts, um, the art scene, um, changing, you know, like live shows and all of that, and the whole virtual world becoming more and more of a. I a thing because more and more shows are all gone virtual. Um, it's also interesting to see how one can monetize, um, streaming, um, um, and virtual, um, I would say, um, well not concerts, um, festivals, and, um, I'm very, I'm pretty, really interested to know how, um, how we can now we can use Bitcoin for that. And, um, I know that Aleta was also very interested to know she wants to learn. Um, and that is very cool. So thanks for that. This will be open, I guess, you know, um, and not just shutting out everything or to try and learn, and I think that's very, very, very cool. So, um, I think I'll just bring Morris in first, um, just to give us like a brief overview on like uh where's Bitcoin standing currently in South Africa, in other words, are people using it? What are they using it for? Um, and the potential behind that.
Morris Nolan:
00:07:59
Cool. Um, just as a disclaimer, I'm not a financial adviser by any stretch of the imagination. Um, but I have been looking at Bitcoin since late, 2014. And at the time, it really was nothing to look at. You know, it was just a bunch of techs, uh, you know, tech geeks, that, uh, we're looking at this particular cryptocurrency, there were use cases as a cryptocurrency, uh, prior to 2009, when it actually did come into, uh, um, you know, the tech forums, um, and obviously they tweaked it and made it a more user-friendly and kind of just ironed out all the issues and made it kind of immutable, um, you know, uh, In terms of it's ledger. So it's a public ledger, it's open source network um, it's all across the world and you know, you shut one thing down. Another one opens it's really difficult to shut down. Is it impossible to shut down. You know, people would always say, it's impossible to shut Bitcoin down. I don't think anything is impossible. I think we've always got to keep an open mind in that. And this is why I always mentioned to people. That, uh, they must always do their own research when it comes to certain things, because you get a bit of an understanding of exactly what the industry is. Yes. There might be somebody to hold your hand in respect to starting up your blockchain wallet, you know, putting you on to platforms like Luno, but for, and all these are the Zappos and cryptocurrency exchanges that are doing extremely, extremely well in the last five to 10, uh, when it comes to their profit margins on an annual basis. And so they just act as an intermediary between yourself and the bitcoin, you know, they just offer you the opportunity to actually purchase it. Um, Mainstream in terms of the industrial revolution. I think the industrial paycheck is quite redundant and at the stage, or has, is starting to become redundant. Okay. Um, these are why I say this is, I mean, you would save up your money or our mothers and fathers would save their money. Um, And we're able to purchase a house, you know, put their kids through school, uh, you know, do all that funding when it comes to life policies and things like that. These days in order for you to achieve that, you have to be earning in a certain bracket, put away life policies and save a little bit of change on a monthly basis. Um, you know, when people talk about financial freedom and looking for alternative sources of income, What they don't realize that they need to start at home. You know, how much are you keeping, first of all, how much money are you keeping on a monthly basis? That will determine how much, you know, wealth or money you start accumulating. It's not how much you actually make. You can make two, three, 4 million Rand a month, but, uh, if your expenses, uh, equates to that, so then you're not really making that much. So when I digress back to the industrial revolution and the fourth industrial revolution, it's an information technology age. And what people need to understand is. They've got these resources available to them in the form of information and these various sources of information, you know, 30 years ago, we would go and get a library card and that would be our access to information. You know, um, we would try and read as much books as we possibly could during the course of those two to three, four hours that we were at the library. These days, that process is marginalized down to a 20 minutes to 30 minutes, a YouTube video or media article, uh, or business insider article or whatever you find terms of these, uh, articles that are coming out on, on, on Bitcoin cryptocurrency, blockchain as a use case, um, which is quite fascinating in itself. Um, But there's, so there's a myriad of different sources of information that you can draw from in terms of understanding what Bitcoin is, what the blockchain network actually transcends and what that means for the future. And the moment you can correlate the three, you are able to position your business effectively. Especially when you've got understanding to a certain degree. Remember you don't really have to understand it fully. You don't have to understand exactly how the blockchain works from a technical perspective or how, bitcoin is, is, is transferred from my phone to your phone from a technical perspective, it's like email, you know, we don't really care how that email is sent. We just confirm we have received it. You know what I mean? So the embedded stuff behind the network is not really necessary. And what it can do for you in terms of, uh, um, you know, facilitating payment methods, um, It's quite, it's quite phenomenal. If I could spend a certain amount of Bitcoin to someone in Australia and they are able to receive that within 30 to 40 minutes, maximum a night without any third party intermediary, it's really a no brainer, but obviously the powers that be in mainstream media and, uh, all of these, uh, financial houses, um, your banks, you know, they've been running this financial system into the ground for the last. A hundred to 200 years and it's a consistent ending. You know, the ending is always consistent, always ends exactly the same way as it started Alot of stimulus a lot of promise, a lot of hope for, for, for things to come going forward. And then you find halfway into that maybe a 50 year period into that. It starts taking its decline in terms of higher taxes. You know, the rich are getting richer. The middle class is slowly dissipating, and eventually it gets to a point where, uh, you know, we in 2020 and the COVID-19, um, gives the world economy a death blow, and then people attribute You know, the, the, in the collapse in the, in the monetary system to, uh, covid. Yeah. But when you actually look at it from an in-depth perspective and you look at the stock market versus the actual economy, and this is job losses, uh, industries being, uh, uh, becoming insolvent, uh, you know, companies just not being able to manage and letting their, their staff go. I mean, we've had record breaking, uh, unemployment numbers, uh, in the last seven to eight months, close to a year. But a lot of people don't realize is that that has got nothing to do with the stock market. So your economy has got zero, has got nothing to do with that actual stock market. And when I say this, people, people always, people always tend to, um, you know, have this argument with me and, uh, I simply just refer them back to simple fundamentals: is the stock market doing really, really well at this moment in time? Yes it is. Is the economy doing really bad at this time? Yes, it is. I mean, you've got interest rates. Uh, we got, um, you know, government with these stimulus packages, uh, the biggest cash, heist of all time in the form of PPE corruption um, and all these tenders going out And it's not happening just in South Africa. It's a global thing, this is in the UK, in the US all on these PPE corruption, uh, like people are dying and you've got the ability to supply them with equipment in order for them to survive. Why then are you taking, uh, you know, either the money from that and not being able to supply the other PPE equipment.
Wesley Pepper:
00:16:55
Okay.
Morris Nolan:
00:16:55
But let me digress back to how that correlates with Bitcoin and why that comes, comes a revolutionized currency. Cryptocurrency people would say it's like gold people would benchmark it against that. And they would even argue the fact that gold is a better storage of wealth because of its 5000 year history. And I completely understand that. Uh, and it's true in what they say, but the argument is 5,000 years ago there wasn't, um, There weren't any tablets. They weren't any smartphones There weren't any PC's. There wasn't any, there was no internet, you know, we didn't really fully understand the possibilities of what the internet and how it's able to connect us in the whole of Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, and all these other social media platforms that enable us including zoom and this particular platform that we're on right now. Um, And so how does that all tie together when it comes to cryptocurrency? I'm not saying, bitcoin is the answer myriad of different cryptocurrencies out there. Sure. But Bitcoin seems to be the one that a lot of people are taking to at the moment, I would encourage people to always look at different kinds of use cases like against the different kinds of coins that are out there. Like Ethereum for example, is more contract kind of based. So your insurance industries and your car industries, uh, um, you know, your financial institutions are more looking towards. Uh, implementing use cases around that kind of Ethereum blockchain. Um, Bitcoin on the other hand offers allows me that the normal, uh, average Joe, the opportunity of taking out my 50 Rand that I have in my pocket and, uh, signing up on, uh, on a blockchain network, um, and going onto a platform called Luno and, uh, putting my money on there that 50 Rand. And then let's say for argument's sake, I put my R50 into bitcoin in December of 2020. And by then I think it was about 16 or 12, just broke 15, 16 there. I stand to be corrected, but. Within two months, it, it pushed itself up to, uh, an all time high of, uh, I believe it was 52 or 54,000 us dollars, which equated, if you want to look at it from a Rand's perspective, I think it was at a hundred and something thousand and jumped from a hundred and something thousand all the way to 750,000 Rand right. Now that margin in between that is, it's quite, it's quite large. Yes. It's volatile right now. And people are obviously, and this is the reason why it's not mainstream, because if I give you Bitcoin today, you have to immediately exchange it into the Rand or USD or your, or whatever currency represents your country, uh, immediately. And you have to be able to do that within an hour or so, of it actually changing because it, because of its volatility, you know what I mean? So yes, implement the, the Bitcoin, uh, or, um, you know, use case in your platforms, but always have in the back of your mind, the possibility of volatility and volatility can either go up or the, or the opposite direction, right. It's not guaranteed until it becomes mainstream now, will it become mainstream? Is the question that a lot of people keep asking, you know, are they going to, um, you know, if I've been running a trillion dollar $500 trillion, uh, organization in the form of the monetary system and utilizing banks as my distributor's or that Fiat currency for the last two to 300 years, I'm not just going to give up my power in that respect. I'm going to put up a bit of a fight. Am I not?
Wesley Pepper:
00:21:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Morris Nolan:
00:21:31
Or I'm going to find a way to implement my oldest system on the new system. That's why they are taking their own time in terms of trying to understand and the, and the fundamental problem with the banks, the ideologies that this is a de-centralized currency. It's not central itself. You can't, there's no one point that you can go to and say, Oh, well, my Bitcoin is stored there. You know, it's so de-centralized, and what they're trying to implement is a centralized kind of thing, where yes, we're going to use cryptocurrency, but we'll be in charge of it. And at any point in time that you fail to pay us the cryptocurrency owed to us, we are able to either go into your account, stop your transactions. You know, there's no, there's no freedom in that. You know, and I think what people are starting to realize is that autonomy and, and, and the freedom to either do what you need to do or manage your own funds as opposed to having a third party intermediary, do that for you. Like, if I want to send money to Canada, I've got to use Western union. Yeah, but Western union immediately takes 30%, of that particular sum, uh, and the person receiving the money and he sees that it's 40% less than what they actually were supposed to get. So for me, there's no need for that. There's no need for somebody to verify your email before I send it to you. You know what I mean? If I want to send you an email I need to be able to have the freedom of doing that. You know what I mean, without anybody verifying or checking in.
Wesley Pepper:
00:23:22
Okay. Okay. I get that. My brother, um, um, let me actually bring, Aleta in over here, uh I get that, um, Aleta do you have any questions? Um, I have a few, but I wanted to see if you. Um, if you have any questions.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:23:35
Yeah. I mean, I, I was, I've been obviously reading, um, about all the cryptocurrency. It's very, and it's very interesting and it's really nice to be part of the conversation. And I think it's obviously an on an ongoing learning process and the more you read, the more, it becomes less unfamiliar. Um, but yeah, I get that. Cause I think some people are interested in it in terms of. Investment or profit. And especially because it's had such high you know having high profits, but if you want to use it as a payment, um, like say for example, for a gallery and we wanted to include, um, the people could pay with cryptocurrency, then that's, I suppose the question of it fluctuating so much, you know, at least I know that if I put a dollar price it's okay. I mean, it can fluctuate, something could happen, but you've got a sort of general idea of, of doing that. So I think that would be the thing is. Um, how do you price things when it fluctuates so much the value?
Wesley Pepper:
00:24:41
Uh, good question. Um, Uh, Morris I actually just have, um, I just have, uh, two, two other questions that you can take that you can answer. And, um, and this is just for, um, can you explain to us what is a blockchain and, um, just for the listeners, like what is, what is open source? You know? So, um, if you can tackle a, Aleta's, question first and then move into, um, those questions.
Morris Nolan:
00:25:07
I'll start with the first question. Um, how do you, how do you implement blockchain without it's um, you know, affecting the margins in, in, in, in layman's terms? Um, either positively or negatively, because from a tax perspective and from a, from a, uh, you know, tax returns kind of perspective as an organization, running a business, um, how do you manage that with the volatility that it's been experiencing in the last 10 years. You obviously have to implement certain situations or certain systems that take the bitcoin. And then immediately transfer it into the US dollar value. I looked at your website and I see that most of your stuff is obviously valued in, uh, US dollar. Um, it is stable for now, and which is great, but what you need to implement is the minute that a person pays within, uh, you know, the Bitcoins value of that us dollar. You need to be able to implement a system that transfers or changes that bitcoin immediately into the US dollar. You know, or transfer it, transfers it back into US dollars immediately within the hour. So you have to have platforms and systems and things like, uh, in place. It's a very difficult, um, process to, to, to implement. And it's quite expensive in itself because it's still new. Uh, but anything that's new will be old very, very soon. So there's a lot of, I mean, it's like, you know, Your WhatsApp. And then all of a sudden you've got signal, you got Telegram So, so, so whatever software comes out. There's always somebody producing an alternative and most of the time the alternative is sometimes better, but case in point is my space versus Facebook Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. My space was a great use concept and it was a great idea, but there was something missing and then Facebook took that and made it into what it is right now, but there were also, uh, open-minded enough to understand that it's a constantly evolving software because it's software it, can evolve. And this is the same thing with, uh, correlating Bitcoin to yours, to your US dollar valuation of your painting. Uh, you simply adjust it in that respect. So you've got, uh, you've got a. If you were to go onto the internet right now and say what's one Bitcoin, uh, versus one, one US dollar, it will give you a, uh, it will give you a number. You need to implement a system that actually does that on your platform that says, it's going to cost you X amount of Bitcoin, which will equate to 600 US dollars. And whether he pays with US or, or, or Bitcoin, that system will immediately transfer the Bitcoin into US dollars by selling it. So by partnering with exchanges like Luno or Phoenix, or, you know, um, you know, all these different Zappos and, you know, uh, platforms that offer you the ability to exchange cash for crypto, uh, would be, uh, would be the first start. You know, you start asking the questions in that respect. Is it possible? Uh, we've got a lot of AI security, cryptocurrency security, uh, people that we are dealing with that we can refer you to, uh, that can assist you in that respect when it comes to implementing these platforms. I hope that answers the question,
Aleta Armstrong:
00:29:04
yeah. I just wanted to add a bit to that. I think obviously, you know, since we're not using cryptocurrencies at the moment, but looking into it that, you know, in dealing with banks and their delightful bank charges that add up at the end of the week, the end of every month and you're like, shit. Um, so what are the charges? Because, okay. Yeah, if you're doing it person to person and you're transferring cryptocurrencies and you've got that set up, but if you're using a third party platform to assist with, you know, changing it into dollars and then using that, do those charges, are they still a much lower than when you're dealing with banks?
Morris Nolan:
00:29:42
In some instances, but in other instances, they they're actually higher than the bank charges. So for example, if I were to take out or withdraw a thousand Rand capital gains on my BTC, uh, it would cost me 80 Rand to withdraw that, you know, it's, uh, you've always got to take that into consideration when pricing your, your paintings. Uh, especially if you're going to put them in a Bitcoin valuation, you've always got to put an extra a hundred to 200 Rand or that equivalent to Bitcoin, uh, on top of what you are actually, uh, selling the painting for, uh, sometimes it'll cost you, you $20, R20, then. Uh, or sometimes it'll cost you a hundred Rand. It all depends on how much you're actually transferring. You. Remember these third party intermediaries, like Luno, this is where they make the money. So every time you transact, they're taking a little piece of what it is that you're transacting. The minimalistic transaction fees come in. The form of, I have my own Bitcoin wallet. So Luno is a platform that allows me to associate my bitcoin wallet with it, right. So I take Bitcoin out of my wallet and I throw it onto the Luno platform. I exchange my, my, um, my Bitcoin for either cash. And then I transfer it back into my normal bank account or whatever the case may be and vice versa if I want to do, if I want to do the purchasing of BTC. The the, the minimalistic charges only occur between peer to peer. Uh, transactions. If I send it, if I've got a wallet and Wesley, you have a wallet and I send you 10,000, US dollars worth of Bitcoin. The transaction fee in that respect is going to cost me a certain amount of Bitcoin, which in US dollars would probably be equivalent to maybe one to two US dollars in transaction fees. So that's where there's differences. In terms of, uh, bank charges compared to your third party, intermediary charges like Luno and Zappa and Bitfinex and all these others. Yeah. So yes, you are going to incur a little bit of a cost. Uh, it might be more, it might be less, uh, the valuation of that would be determined by the volatility in the market at the time, or there is a certain benchmark or threshold between
Wesley Pepper:
00:32:35
interesting.
Morris Nolan:
00:32:36
If you transfer a thousand, uh, between a thousand and 10 thousand, it's going to cost you 80 to 80, 80 Rand from anything from 10,000 onwards is going to cost you 150. rand, but it won't exceed, uh, exorbitant fees. Like if I were to make a 350,000 Rand transaction on my credit card, uh, it'll literally cost you something to the value of six or seven thousand to transact that amount of money. Do you know what I mean? So there's a massive difference in terms of, uh, the pricing, when it comes to the exchange rates, uh, when it comes to you purchasing and, and changing that money from BTC into, into, into US dollars.
Wesley Pepper:
00:33:21
Aleta are you covered?
Aleta Armstrong:
00:33:24
Yeah on that bit. I mean, there's obviously still lots to, lots to kind of think about and look, I mean, I'm thinking where I'm thinking as a, when I was reading about it before, like artists and galleries was it's, it's a new way, which okay. Some galleries, but I think more, the ones I was looking at seem to be in the UK or the States doing it. I don't know about South Africa, but obviously zero going on with cryptocurrencies. Um, but so you kind of looking at it. So if there are, I think there's always to give people different options. You know, if you've got cryptocurrency, you want to use it, you want to buy some art. It's good to be able to offer that service. I think where I would look at it on behalf of artists is what are the fees? Because one of the thing is you're trying to like, make it easier. So you don't have to pay so much to banks. That's what would interest me
Wesley Pepper:
00:34:21
Morris can you come in there, please.
Morris Nolan:
00:34:26
Other platforms like PayPal, for example, and, um, you know, Tesla, you know, purchasing's, uh, to the value of 1.5 billion US dollars worth of Bitcoin. And then you see all these, uh, JP Morgan uh, hedge funds. And you also see, uh, one of the biggest, uh, payment systems in the form of PayPal, actually investing in Bitcoin and offering that as a, as a way of payment, then you should. You start to see the signs. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's all about reading in between the lines and being plugged into the industry in order. So you position yourself as strategically going forward Um, I also, then I would, I would look at places like PayPal and what they've done in terms of implementing BTC as a means of payment on their platform. Do you know what I mean? Because what we've just discussed they probably would have already started implementing that by the time you transfer your BTC in there. Yes. There's marginal, uh, difference in terms of, because of the volatility. I mean, an hour later Bitcoin might go from 47,000 to 34,000, like a 45% to 30% drop. But at the same time, it could, it could have the opposite effect. So you could actually make a hell of a lot more. So you, uh, the systems in that regard are the other ones that that would, would manage, uh, the transfer and the movement, because if you were to do it manually from that perspective, transferring, uh, you know, manually doing your, your ledger, uh, with maybe a thousand payments coming in, it would, it would take you quite a long time. But if it, if it's automated then, and if PayPal have looked at it and said, well, you know, it is something that we actually, uh, implementing, uh, then that might be a first, uh, point of call, you know, point of call when it comes to understand, uh, how that correlates and how that would work. But like you say, let's say it is, uh, it is, uh, it is something that you have to start offering, uh, your clientele base because the older generation is starting to, to, to, to do, to move itself out of the corporate industry. And what you're starting to realize is that the younger generation is taking over.
Wesley Pepper:
00:36:58
Um, that's interesting. That's, that's, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Um, I guess, I guess that actually leads me to like a follow-up question. Like, um, if we want to start implementing this, where do we, where and how do we start, you know, um, because I also know that there's also an option of, um, if one has enough, um, Um, traffic on your, uh, on your, um, on your website, you can, you can use those figures. I'm not sure how, but to sort of start your own cryptocurrency. So, so I guess my question is like, um, if we want to start, where and how do we, um, how do we, how do we go about it?
Morris Nolan:
00:37:37
I would basically start at home. I would start using it personally yourself. So create a block chain wallet. Um, you know, be willing to lose maybe two, 300 rand, uh, you know, put, put two, 300 rand into your wallet, understand how, what the, what the traffic signs tell you what, you know, what the, what the actual lay of the land is. How do I go from point A to point B to point Z? And how do I come back from that? That would be your first task, because I can explain it as much as I could possibly try and explain it in layman's terms and how simple it is. It's very, very easy. And it's like, all these guys will tell you, no, it's a walk in the park, but you know, there's actual buttons that you have to click on. The one, two, three process is there, but how do you know which button to press? If you're looking at a bunch of items, So you need to understand exactly how to first, uh, open a Bitcoin wallet, how to manage that wallet in itself, or to take money out of it and put money back into it. Right, and what platforms are user-friendly for you because Luno might work for me, but, bitfinex might work for you better, you know, because you like the, you know, the different kinds of, uh, dashboard or the different kinds of use case that it offers, or the different kinds of alternative coins that it is offering like monero, cardone and, uh, you know, tether, uh, as opposed to what Luno's offering you in the form of steller, uh, you know, uh, ripple and ethereum, BTC cash.
Wesley Pepper:
00:39:24
Geez. I didn't realize there was, there was, there was so many, um, um, just from a South African perspective, which, um, which of which of these platforms do you think will suit, will suit us best you know, from a, from an African creative, um, um, um, perspective.
Morris Nolan:
00:39:39
Look, I think you you'd want to work with something that's already been mainstream. Now. I think they've got the ads on TV. I was watching the soccer game the other day. And, uh, you know, that you get those ads in between the games themselves and it was a discovery ad that came on. And then after that, uh, there was a Luno ad that actually came on. And what they actually said on there was, was something that we've been talking about since Well, I've been talking about it since 2014, when I finally realized that, Oh my God, this is actually something that is going to be in the future. Whether it's five to 10 or 20 years from now, you can't ignore something like this. Um, and what it actually said on the ad was, and I'll quote it verbatim when you, if you are starting to see Bitcoin on TV, that means it's a good time to start buying it. Yeah. I mean, these are people that, advocated against bitcoin for the better part of seven years and said it's a Ponzi scheme, I mean, Bruce Whitfield and all these other guys came on the money show and they spoke, about it in such a negative connotation. Am I saying it's a positive thing? No, I'm just keeping an open mind. I'm saying guys, we've been riding a horse and cart. Um, chariot for the last hundred years here's, a Maserati that's come with a V6 engine. Why would you not take it for a test drive at least? You know, why would you write it off and say, Oh, that's terrible. Did Dunlop not say that to the horse and chariot industry back in, uh, the, the turn of the 1900 century when he decided to put in rubber tires and they were still using leather on their cart, they wrote him off and he became one of the biggest tire manufacturers in the world. And still is one of the prominent ones today. They ignore Tesla in that respect when he came up with an electric car as sustainable energy going forward and lo and behold, right now, Tesla's market cap value. bests the entire motor industry market. And that includes Toyota.
Wesley Pepper:
00:42:00
That's unbelievable. Actually, I read that last year. That's unbelievable
Morris Nolan:
00:42:04
Yeah. So when you start listening to others' perspectives instead of, you know, doing your own research and finding out for yourself, uh, and, and, and, and don't take it from a bias perspective, don't take my, uh, understanding of BTC and say, I've heard it from this guy. Therefore it is the gospel truth. Um, go and do your own research and do it for a very long time and, and speak to people that have actually been using it and speak to industries that are starting to think about it. Um, And then start putting the dots together because when you connect the dots, the light comes on, you know, and then that's. Yeah. So I always take a, um, not a biased or, um, you know, I always try to be on the fence when I'm giving people advice when it comes to crypto, because yes, you can lose a lot of money. Yes. You can make a lot of money. How you do that. All to be determined. My, how much understanding you have of that industry, you know, you can't just simply go and buy gold for examples, uh, without understanding the processes it takes to buy.
Wesley Pepper:
00:43:19
Oh, sure, sure, sure.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:43:24
Can I add something, please,
Wesley Pepper:
00:43:26
please. Come in.
Aleta Armstrong:
00:43:29
Cause, I mean, you know, when I was reading about it, it was quite interesting. And I was also reading about how countries like Zimbabwe, Venezuela, obviously having problems with banks, governments are turning more to obviously using cryptocurrencies. And then, you know, you guys are in South Africa where you're way ahead of us, despite us not being very far away from you in Eswatini where, you know, the banks are South African here. So we, we don't have PayPal. We can't use Instagram shopping. We can't use this, we can't use that. So for us the options, um, and it's come up on a lot of social media platforms and I've been kind of discussing it as well. Is that. You know, we're going to, you got to go to the bank. They're like, okay, you could open a dollar account somewhere. It's EFT, you know? And we, we had like last year, you know, obviously with COVID and you're trying to do shipping and the banks are telling you, tell someone to go for a walk to their bank, physically to do a transfer. And you're like, dear Lord, guys, this is just like, not working plus all the challenges that come with it. So I think for, for countries that are kind of out of the loop, you know, and then you, you will discuss, I mean, I think that a lot of people here, we've been talking to government to banks, you know, and there's a whole thing of, Oh, it's just none of it's possible. And it's like, you're too small, so no, we're not going to invest. So we're not investing in, in technology. So I'm using Um, a Kenyan company at the moment. So I can do credit card payments rather than people must go physically to a bank. So where, I'm feeling right now. And when I look at all, the changes that are happening is if you're an entrepreneur or creative person, you've got to be innovative and you've got to look. So you go and talk to the government and banks and say, Hey guys, you know, this isn't working that isn't working, nothing's going to grow, we can't sell, we can't do this. Um, if they're not responding and listening, then I'm also sort of seeing this as, as an opportunity. It's like, they're missing the boat. And then they're thinking, you know, just be quiet, just continue this old fashioned way. Let's make a lot of money out of you or you'll do no business, but who cares? So I think and if I'm looking at the creative industries, Um, you know, people still haven't think of now, are you going to go and rent a building? Where are you going to open your business? And you're like, dear Lord, guys, you can operate from home so long as you've got your phone, you know, but you need the payment options. So it's all fine to be creative and share stuff on social media, if you're in the creative industries. Um, but then how are you going to get paid? So countries like or Zimbabwe, you know, where it's not functioning and we can't have all these systems. Okay. You can transfer it. You know, you've got sort of Ewallet and we can kind of transfer bits to each other, but not overseas. Um, then I'm the, so I am feeling just from that point of view that this is very interesting. That's what I want to do.
Wesley Pepper:
00:46:28
I can check. Mo, you want to come in,
Morris Nolan:
00:46:32
And I completely agree when it comes to that, you guys are on the ground and you know, exactly what's going on on the ground. And when you take that from a numbers perspective and put it to the banks and say, look, our margins have dropped by 5%. Uh, you know, this year and 5% to your industry, uh, could mean, uh, you know, the breaking point, uh, you know, live or die kind of scenario, right. I, if we go beyond that, it would be detrimental for your business, right. But what they're looking at is they're saying that 5% as a, as a marginal, cost that can, be recovered over a certain period of time, even in light of the, uh, you know, uh, economics will tell you that it will always cover it because the demand will go up and this and that Yeah. But if, if, if, if, uh, economics is anything to go by, becomes null and void with. The stock market, when the stocks go up and the economy goes down that throws my economics out the window because everything, they said in there is in direct contradiction to what is actually happening right now. And yes, you're right. Aleta when you say you've at least tried to go to them and say to them, listen, here's a problem. Can we not implement this? And they're like, no, what Bitcoin actually, and blockchain actually offers you the individual. It was never meant for industries. It was never meant for business. It was actually meant for peer to peer transaction, because you would find in areas like yours, that you're in right now. There's a lot of unbanked people. There's a lot of people that do not have bank accounts. But they have smartphones. don't they?, My granny's got a smart phone. My, my, my granny's grandmother has a smart phone.
Wesley Pepper:
00:48:27
That's a good point.
Morris Nolan:
00:48:28
WhatsApp and Facebook. So on that smartphone, that actual smartphone now becomes your bank and it answers the fundamental point of how do we get paid now? How do we get paid? What if I've got to, if I've got a block chain wallet, and I've got a piece of art and I've got a place that I can put it on, which is your platform? Can I not put my blockchain uh wallet on there? And then correlate that with my, with my, with my painting, and then just wait for somebody to, to make a payment or to suggest that a payment is going through. And then they have to confirm from their side, whether or not they will be able to send that. Or how long it will say, you know, like when you're buying something from take a lot, it takes you three to five days shipping and all that kind of jazz, and you've got it. You've got a cart, you've got an exit cart and things like that. Where, you, uh, you know, that you made a purchase towards it. Right. That's basically, uh, what they've been and I know it looks like, Oh, but if that's the only use case, uh, that bitcoin is going to come in with uh, or you know, artists that actually help us. But think about it from a, from a compounding interest, I'd rather get my people to buy my paintings at a certain amount of money. Then wait for that one person, to pay 600 for that. But yeah. And allow those five people access to me in the form of they've got blockchain wallet. I have block, I've got a blockchain wallet. It's like a barter exchange. It's, it's almost like going back in history and saying, I have a blanket. That's going to keep you warm during the winter, but you have got, a gun that could help me the expert at hunting, find the bird. So you keep warm, give me the gun I'll go and do the, the killing and, and, and you you've given me more in use values than you've taken from me in cash value kind of scenario.
Wesley Pepper:
00:50:36
Interesting.
Morris Nolan:
00:50:39
So, so why is that important? Because when you look at how many people are unbanked in the world, the numbers are staggering, And this is a direct implication to things like poverty. So, so attach that to your proposals or attach that to your concept and say a portion of this particular painting and the money that's going to go from this. Will be sent to a charity organization or associate yourself with, with a, uh, you know, house that that helps young uh, women get on their feet if they've been abused or, uh, you know, sold or whatever the case may be, you know, associate yourself with a charity organization because it starts with that kind of process. The secret of living is actually giving us, instead of just taking taking taking, like what the banks do to you when the minute, you go there. They charging you literally to deposit your money and they charging you to take your money. They charging you to actually send you a statement. They charge you to, um, target for I'm in the cost per copy game. You know, I do office automation and it costs me. A minimum of let's say 7 cents a copy to print out a black A4 copy at a 5% page coverage. Right they're telling you that little slip that you've printed. The art of the ATM is going to cost you effectively R3.50 Now.
Wesley Pepper:
00:52:09
That's ridiculous. I never knew that gee whizz I never knew that.
Morris Nolan:
00:52:16
So they're not making, they're not just making money. They're making money on top of money on top of money,
Wesley Pepper:
00:52:22
yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Morris Nolan:
00:52:25
They are able to charge you 25% interest on your credit. And then offer you a savings plan, which will give you 6% after 12 months. It just doesn't make sense, you know, from a mathematics perspective. Absolutely. Yes. You're giving me money, but meet me half way. Don't meet me 10% of the way. And then want me to run that 90%, you know what I mean? Because as an entrepreneur what I'm doing is I'm facilitating a position in my organization, or I am In your case Aleta, you're facilitating artists in your organization and allowing them the platform, because let's be honest, I might be fantastic at drawing, uh, you know, you know, a painting or portrait, or I might be a great as Rembrandt himself but at the end of the day, I have no concept of business. And I don't know, how to correlate my work and, and how to get that and how to get money from that. And you know, you come on as a platform and say, we can, we can offer you that platform. What do you have to do? Simply submit your artwork. And we will be able to sell it across the vast amount of viewers or subscribers that we have. And you never know, somebody might love, your artwork your painting to a point where they take your whole collection. Um, but here's the platform that allows that now that's, that's, that's helping that's one anothering each other Yes, you are making. I mean, everybody's going to make something at the end of the day, but don't, don't, don't be like the banks and take every single thing. If I ask you a question. You know what I mean
Aleta Armstrong:
00:54:12
No. I think that that way of operating is getting unpalatable for a lot of us. And I think, you know, the pandemic has brought that out. I mean, I know, I mean, in South Africa, a lot of businesses on their knees, the creative industry is, is suffering. You know, artists, are, Broke galleries are broke. Everyone's like hustling and, you know, doing whatever to, to stay alive, but then it made it it's forcing you to, to adapt and just start thinking of, of a new way of doing business. Really? Cause this, some of the ways are just not working.
Wesley Pepper:
00:54:47
Mm. Mm mm, no, I agree. I agree with both of you's, there actually, um, actually I have to, I have to come in here. Um, we've actually, we've actually gone way past the time I usually allocate Okay. And like I'm sitting and listening, I'm thinking like there's also much more to discuss man. Like we should definitely do another follow up on here. Um, and sort of, and sort of just pick up like, um, like from where we left of, um, because there's still a few other few more things that I still want to cover. Um, I just think, yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, because you're because I think you were so, right. Like, um, um, the creative industry is on its knees, and, um, Yeah. And here in South Africa, like it's more of a, I'm generalizing here is more of a finger pointing. You said, she said type of very little solutions going around. That's why I think like episodes, like this is so important. Um, and, um, to, to, to start this dialogue is very, very important. So, um, I think we must definitely do a follow-up on, on, on, on all of this man. Um, modest, uh, thanks a lot, my brother, um, in closing, do you have anything to say just to conclude?
Morris Nolan:
00:56:01
I think that you're right. I think as well as you. In terms of us having another discussion so much to postulate about because, and the only way we're going to get to a solution is if we actually respond to having these hard conversations, and I know it seems abit radical and disruptive in its nature, but at the end of the day, you guys have an industry. That needs to survive as, so do I and so do you Wesley, I mean, we literally, uh, had to do something during the pandemic making way for you to put yourself out there. So I think more conversations need to take place. I think a lot more focus groups. I think a little from your side, I think you need to look at your database of art producers and start asking and start asking them. So I think we should definitely have these conversations more.
Wesley Pepper:
00:57:09
No, absolutely. Absolutely. We can and
Morris Nolan:
00:57:11
and start talking about them in your guys' industry, because like I said, that industrial age is over now. People don't realize that 1900 centuries to 2000, uh, is over now. Uh, that was the industrial age. Now we are moving towards a more information technology age, there's information. And you combine that with technology creates another industry. So in essence, there's actually industries within this industry that we are going into now that have not been discovered yet. And they come from reinventing the wheel, like the art industry or the it industry, or the consummables industry. And you see if Uber is anything to go by, Uber eats was, was such a delight during lockdown. You know what I mean? All these physical things started popping up and becoming use case. So I think there's a lot more that can be stimulated, especially from Africa. I'm going to be honest.
Wesley Pepper:
00:58:14
Hey, my brother, I'm with you there.
Morris Nolan:
00:58:16
So, and I think there's, we've been lacking in that respect. And I think because we were moving into another industrial, uh, into another age, that being the information technology age, I think we all need to start talking about this.
Wesley Pepper:
00:58:31
For sure, man, for sure. Um, Aleta do you have anything to say in closing?
Aleta Armstrong:
00:58:37
No. I mean, I agreed with everything that Morris said there I think what I want to do is talk more. I mean, we all do care about the creative industry, lots going on, but I think discuss this more and find out some more questions and what people need and how to start, how to start working together, you know, like, yeah, we all, we, all, some of us, I represent artists where there's other people in the creative industries, whether it's the music sector or poetry, different aspects or filmmakers, but we need to also, I think get together and start lobbying, you know, and also start and helping each other. So like, Hey guys, how about we try this? Or we do that. Or you lobby for that. But if we're all just sitting at home, freaking out quietly, I don't think that's going to be very helpful. So I think practical advice that we can give people. Would be great.
Wesley Pepper:
00:59:26
Fantastic, man. Um, thanks both of you for coming through, man. Um, it's, it's unbelievable. I'm watching, looking at this time clock here and like, I still think we should at least, um, yeah, we must definitely um, uh, set up another episode. Um, I'll get on that in the, in the next week for sure. Um, and see what other questions arise and I'll share it with both of you and we can sort of just schedule, you know, see when we are all free available and then take it from there. But thanks a lot guys for coming through, man. And, um, I'll be in touch with you both
Aleta Armstrong:
01:00:01
Thanks
Wesley Pepper:
01:00:02
guys. Cheers, man.
Morris Nolan:
01:00:04
Bye.
Spudcaster:
01:00:05
Thank you for listening to this spudcaster podcast. Don't forget to like share and subscribe.
Wesley Pepper:
01:00:12
Hey, um, thanks a lot for my two guests. I think they were actually fantastic. Um, and like you said, we should definitely, definitely do another follow up on this. There's just so much more to be, um, to, um, to discuss. Um, so yeah, man look forward to more outstanding, um, top ranking content, um, on this podcast. And, uh, I have to give a shout out firstly, to Baobulb and Spudcaster for hosting me. I think they do fantastic work, you know, and, um, check us out on all these streaming platforms, man. And don't, don't forget to give us all your. Comments and feedback. Um, and it'll be interesting to know what you guys have to say about, um, this episode, if you want to know anything or any, uh, if you have any questions or comments. Yeah. I mean, just send it to me via text. Uh, so, or on Facebook or Instagram, and it's all wesley pepper, you know, um, just search, for me you'll find me and I'll take all this stuff and I'll present it to my guests, um, in a future episode. So thanks a lot guys for coming through and look forward to more outstanding content from Wesley Pepper's Art Lexica Thank you very much.
