Revolutionizing Systems: Dr. Kathy Hogarth on Racism and Social Justice.

[00:00:00] Elton Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 
[00:00:17] Rita Burke: As the goal of SpeakUP! International is to educate, inform, and inspire with the stories of community builders. Today is no exception. We have with us Dr. Kathy Hogarth, who serves as the Associate Vice President of Global Strategy at Wilfrid Laurier University.
Something that I'd like to bookmark right at the top of this chat is the fact that Kathy was a student at Laurier before she became a leader there, which she currently does. So, help me welcome Dr. Kathy Hogarth! 
[00:00:59] Kathy Hogarth: Thank you, Rita and thank you, Elton, for having me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here!
[00:01:04] Elton Brown: We can definitely say the same. Can you provide some details about your academic background, including your degrees and areas of expertise? 
[00:01:14] Kathy Hogarth: So I'm gonna take you back to my very early beginnings. I was born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago, and then a beautiful upbringing I must say, then I moved to Jamaica. to do my post secondary education.
So I did my first degree, my undergrad and my first graduate degree in Jamaica with a focus on psychology and then worked in Jamaica at the University of Technology for many years after that as the university, uh, as a university psychologist. So doing, uh, counseling, uh, with students, staff, faculty, and then I wanted to do my PhD and I immigrated to Canada.
When I came to Canada, one of the first things that happened was my degrees, my, my education from outside of Canada was not recognized. And so I couldn't find employment. In my field of study and prior work because I was either always over qualified or under qualified because my degrees weren't recognized.
 I intended to do my PhD, and even at the university level, they refused to recognize my degrees from outside of Canada. So I had to. It wasn't a complete start over, but I had to redo my graduate degree. So I did an additional master's in psychology. So now I have two masters in psychology.
And while I was doing my master's in psychology here at Laurier. I took an elective course in social work on community development and absolutely loved the community development aspect of the work. Decided to do my PhD. In social work, and that's where I am now! 
[00:03:34] Rita Burke: But when we spoke earlier off camera, you talked about community psychology, and I'm particularly curious about that terminology, because long ago, when I went to school, there was no such thing as community psychology speak to us about that, please.
[00:03:54] Kathy Hogarth: So community psychology is one of the quote unquote newer, I mean, we wouldn't say it's new, but it's a newer branch of psychology and where psychology tended to focus on the clinical, the therapeutic, the diagnosis um, the brain here, community psychology is focused on, if you want, diagnosing community.
It is at a, what we would call, a macro level. Understanding community structures and what makes communities work, what are the ways in which we can look at the systems. It asks questions of systems, big systems, and tries to find alignment for the betterment of the community, but understanding the interrelationship between community and individual.
That one. When we have healthy individuals, we have healthy communities. When we have healthy communities, we have healthy individuals. However you want to define that health and wellness of communities and individuals. But the focus of community psychology is really on the macrosystems, the big structures that support the microsystems.
[00:05:24] Elton Brown: Wow, this reminds me of... Certain movies that I've seen where there's a lot of information is being streamed through many different conduits. So, how do you decide which conduit to grab hold of in order to do this type of diagnostic work? 
[00:05:48] Kathy Hogarth: I think some of it is what comes out to you. So, let's look at hot button topics.
What are some of the world's problems that need solving right now? Well, there are many for us to choose from, right? So then it is looking at who's leading all of this. So community psychology, for instance, we would work with governments and NGOs and
anybody, the advocates, the OIRS . We bring folks together. And I say we, even though I've stepped away from community psychology, I don't practice in community psychology. I practice in community, but not in community psychology as a profession. So I say we. Very judiciously. But we would be working with government agencies and non government agencies, grassroots organizations, to look at What are these hot topics?
So let's take one of them, for instance. One of our big topics right now is racism and anti racism. How do we solve for racism? Those are some of the questions that they are not easy solves. Because when you think about how racism functions in society, it's deep embeddedness in all of the structures of our society.
The idea of solving for racism is, it feels like a fantasy. Right? But what we can do is just to look at where can we most meaningfully effect change. So then we begin to pull things like policy. And ask of our systems, what policies exist currently, and how are those policies operating to entrench, further entrench racism in our systems?
Or, how can we create policies to have them work towards dismantling systems, structures of racism. 
[00:08:19] Rita Burke: So what I'm hearing then is... If at all possible, we need to undo some stuff, which is tough, very challenging, and try to overlay that with some more positive policies. 
[00:08:33] Kathy Hogarth: I guess for me, one of the things I work really hard and encourage people to work against what happens in many of our systems. And when we are looking at issues of justice, social justice, when we are looking at some of these really difficult issues we, we want easy fixes, right? And we always have to temper the desire for the easy fix.
Let's tweak a policy here and tweak a system there. Rita, you may have heard me say this. A lot of what's wrong with our system is not, it is not that our systems are broken. So tweaking them isn't going to Get us very far in terms of the systemic change. We need a lot of what's wrong with our system is not brokenness.
It is design. So our systems are designed in particular ways. They are designed for particular bodies and they are designed. For the exclusion of others, because they are designed that way and overly isn't necessarily going to get us. At the kind of inclusive change the path we idealize down the road.
It requires a system redesign. So that for me is what I get at in much of my work. How do we. How do we look at systems and ask these critical questions? And yes, there are some things that are easy wins and easy fixes. But when we begin to talk about the systemic, the deeply entrenched, we are looking at system design and redesign.
[00:10:43] Rita Burke: Is that heavy work? 
[00:10:45] Kathy Hogarth: Oh, that's... That's tremendously burdensome work and for all the folks who work at system design and system redesign for all the folks that are carrying burdens of social justice and asking questions of injustice and
realignment. It's incredibly difficult work and we can't do it. Alone, walking this path as a one man band, a solo soldier, a solo advocate, that's a sure fire path to burnout.
[00:11:34] Elton Brown: So how long do you think it would take in order to redirect? Because that's basically what we're, at least that's my understanding. Because it's not where we're trying to. Change anything per se, but it's a redirection so that everyone is included in this process. So how long do you think it would take in order for the A, the redirection to occur? And then how would people be affected? When would they be affected by it? 
[00:12:07] Kathy Hogarth: Yeah, I'm going to borrow from an Indigenous saying that I've picked up along the way. If it took us 10 years to walk into the forest, how long will it take us to walk out? There is no easy fix for us. What we are dealing with in terms of system design and redesign, what we are dealing with is centuries of work.
And so we are making incremental steps. And I say this, I was having a conversation with some folks on the weekend about this, because we can feel jaded. We can feel really, we get burdened in this work. And at times that we are not careful, it feels hopeless. Are we really making change?
Oftentimes we don't see the change until we look in the rearview mirror. It's behind us. Right? We don't see the change as we are walking along. We see it in our rearview. And I think about some of the changes that's occurred over the centuries that we've been working at making change. My fore parents were working at making change and they didn't see it in their lifetime, but I am the beneficiary.
Of the work they've been doing. Right? Because in their time, there was no way little black girl could occupy a position like I occupy now. But they were fighting for it. And what am I fighting for? The changes that I want to see that I'm working towards. I have no hope that I will see it in my lifetime.
But what gives me hope is that yeah. For seven generations, it is that I'm living in the light of my fore parents. And I'm building for the generations to come. And if I don't do it, if I don't take this burdensome work on, the generations to come are doomed. And I don't say that in terms of, Oh, look at the important work I am doing.
No. I'm saying it in terms of the collective work we are doing if we don't do this important burdensome work, how will the generations behind us walk? 
[00:14:58] Rita Burke: Beautifully said. I could sit and listen to you talk about this subject. So we are currently, I believe, in the shadows of Viola Desmond, Rosa Parks. Martin Luther King, Mandela, and quite a few other people.
You're quite right. So we are setting the foundation, one hopes for generations to come. Yes. Let me segue a little bit, please. And ask the question, what do you do as the associate vice president of global strategy? It's a big terminology and I am really curious and I'm sure our listeners will want to know as well.
[00:15:41] Kathy Hogarth: Yes. So I get the privilege in really simple terms. I get to write and work on the strategy for internationalization of a university. Right. What are we going to do and how are we going to do it for the next X amount of years. So that's my work, but one of the things that really gives me a lot of pleasure in life and I'm able to marry.
They say no learning. There's no learning that's wasted. So, I come from psychology into social work and I'm now in this position. And they all seem to be so distant from each other. And I do a lot of advocacy work and EDI work. And I'm going to use this as an example. So, I'm sitting In a meeting in Singapore with leaders of institutions, and we are talking about matters that concern institutions.
international matters that concern institutions, uh, institutions. And I'm able to ask folks to call and to challenge. Let's point a finger at ourselves as we internationalize our institutions. Can we hold a critical gaze where we ask ourselves, how are we individually and collectively Bad actors, because see, we keep talking about international students in terms of wins and losses and who's gaining, who has more international students at their universities and so on.
And I say, well, have we stepped back for a minute and ask how we are replicating. Let's go back to those systems ideas. How are we replicating in this movement, this global movement of bodies across geographies? How are we replicating the sugar plantation, the slave plantations? How is it we get to talk about who's winning and who's losing in this game, this battle for bodies without thinking about how we are replicating systems of injustice?
How do we continue our work? In international, in global strategy, without asking crucial questions of the nations where we are taking these brilliant minds from, and in so doing, creating all kinds of gaps at a global level, we are decimating countries,
draining the network. Their brains, we must ask questions of ourselves. And so for me, this is one of the beautiful things about my job. I get to ask those questions of systems and challenge my colleagues around these things so that we are not walking blindly into the good night.
[00:19:12] Elton Brown: Well, you talked about so many different levels here. It's a 12 layer cake. So I don't know which layer now to move to, but I want to talk about racism and inequality. On an international level. It's complicated enough having to deal with it here in, in North America. But then when you are dealing with it on an international level with all of these other countries who are affected by racism and nationalism in some way, shape, or form.
And then now you have to try to weave all of this stuff, or at least untangle it. So that people are looked upon equally, and I just want to know how do you go about doing that? I know you said that you ask questions. There's these important questions that you must ask in order not to replicate. What's going on. So how do you stop that so that the replication is muted? 
[00:20:30] Kathy Hogarth: Here's the thing I say, Elton. We cannot, for a minute, think that racism does not have benefit. Racism has always had individual, national, global benefit. To somebody, to some bodies, to some systems, to some nations. And there are folks who are as entrenched as racism is.
It is entrenched because there are folks who are entrenched in their beliefs. And upholding those structures because of the implicit, tremendous amount of benefit to be derived from it. Individually, nationally.
Sometimes, and why have we not eradicated racism in our nation and in our world. We have not eradicated racism, because it gets filtered down into dollars and cents, and we monetized the value of people.
So, as long as we are able to make one person subservient. So that we can gain more. We have a need for it. Rita asked earlier about the difficulty of the work. This is part of the difficulty of this work. Because as much as we fight and as passionate we are. About ending racism, about advancing anti racism, about advancing decolonialism.
It is just as passionate on the other side. There are those who are quite vocal. Listen, I just read that the premier of Alberta, I'm going to read it for you because I can't make this up. Uh, the
 premier of Alberta, Daniel Smith, they passed, the membership passed a set of resolutions at their party convention.
One of those resolutions, ban. post secondary institutions from using race as a factor in any admissions program or procedure.
But beyond that. The eighth one was to ensure post-secondary institutions shall be places of free thought and learning of employable skills by eliminating all diversity, equity, and inclusion offices at all public universities, colleges, and technical institutions.
As I, that's what we are dealing with in Canada, because folks see diversity, inclusion, and equity as indoctrination, as a threat to nationalism. As much as I am passionate, as much as you might be passionate about eliminating racism in our structures, there are folks who are equally passionate. In ensuring that our structures remain white, remain controlled by supremacist thought.
And that's, we see the replication of that within our countries, but we see it around the world. Supremacist thought and the ways in which we hold a tight fist on ensuring supremacy. 
[00:24:37] Rita Burke: That the systems are maintained, that to benefit the supremists. Yes, that the systems are maintained. Got it. I am going to say that sometimes I tend to be naive. And the more they attempt to stop, it's the more... We push back, and yes, it takes energy, yes, it takes time, but I'm hopeful enough to know that they are not going to win.
And I think we are making our ancestors or foremothers and forefathers proud because we are keeping up the fight with hope, I believe. I believe, and yes, I know it takes energy. Now, I want to shift a little bit because I notice on your online bio, That there's a short statement saying, I am black and my internal response was, well, I know that.
So, explain for me why you needed to make that statement?
[00:25:40] Kathy Hogarth: I had just, well, I was a few years into the professorate. I had become a professor and working at the University of Waterloo. And I had a student who hadn't been submitting her work. Three weeks went by, she was late. Evening I was sitting in my office late one evening and I saw the student pass by walk by my office.
So I called her in and I asked. Or if there was any way I can support her, what's happening? Why is she, why is her work late? And she said to me, these words they somehow echo in my head ever since. She said to me, well, I haven't come to you before because I find you intimidating and unapproachable.
And I thought immediately, wow, I get this in my course evaluations that are anonymous. To have someone tell me, sit in front of me, this is gold. So I said to her in my best social work voice, can you help me to understand that? You find me intimidating and unapproachable. She says, well, you're tall. I am tall.
She said, you're tall and you're skinny. I used to be skinnier, but I learned a long time ago that academia has a way of equalizing that. She said, you're tall and you're skinny and you have a dry sense of humor. That's more acceptable in men.
I said to her, okay. Thanks for telling me that, but help me to understand a bit better because there's a professor across the hall from me. She's taller than I am and she's skinnier than I am. Do you also find her to be intimidating and unapproachable? She said, no, but you have to remember you're black.
And then she said, I'm not being racist or anything. Because I spent two years in the Caribbean, I grew, I spent two years in a Caribbean island, she said. So I'm not racist. So I said to her, so what you're saying to me is because I'm Black, and I happen to be tall and all these things, but because I'm Black, before I enter space, before I open my mouth, I become intimidating and unapproachable.
And she took a minute and she said, well, yeah, and this is one student who had the wherewithal to come and sit with me. Well, I proded and I, right, but here's a student sitting in front of me. I can't begin to tell you the evaluations I've received over the years. She requires too much. She's hard. She's And now I remind students or since that incident, I reminded folks when I approach a classroom, I deal, I tackle this head on folks, just so you know, just so you don't get up six weeks into this course.
And come to realization, let's deal with it now. So I introduced myself when I'm in, even in person to say to folks, I am Dr. Kathy Hogarth and I am black because I know that my blackness, it's not just about the, it's, there's nothing benign about my blackness. My blackness is red. And oftentimes it's read as threat.
My blackness is read, and oftentimes, it is read in the most unfavorable way. And so, I do not walk in to spaces thinking that there is neutrality. And how folks are going to read me. So I bring it to the fore. First and foremost, folks, I'm Black. Whatever that means to you. So let's have a dialogue about what my Blackness means to you 
[00:30:28] Rita Burke: in case you don't see it, here it is. 
[00:30:30] Kathy Hogarth: That's right. Can't be hidden. It will not be hidden! 
[00:30:36] Elton Brown: I think that is an excellent tactic. Because many individuals, I'm going to generalize and just say non white may have subliminal thoughts and they don't even know that they have this stream of racism that is in their bodies.
And so they just go about thinking that everything is fine and dandy and then something triggers. Yeah, subliminal message and it comes out that they are racist. Yes, and I just want to go back to something that you said earlier about
them removing. Certain parts from colleges when you go to apply. So, of course, there's no more diversity, no more equity, none of that kind of stuff that just happened in the States. Yes, too long ago where they went to the same process. And they removed all of that and said, we don't need that.
Yes, there was a time. Where that was necessary, but that's no longer necessary. We don't need to do that. And what that basically means is that the individuals that are of upper class will have the advantage and then there'll be the middle class and then the rest and those that are part of the rest will not receive any benefits, more or less, Because they will be swallowed by the other two communities that are allowed to, or have the privilege of doing so.
And so my thing is, how do we work with individuals who don't know that they're racist? How do we, I don't know, flush that out? 
[00:32:46] Kathy Hogarth: One of my colleagues in the U. S. wrote a book called Racism Without Racists. Uh, and the idea around racism without racist is that, well one, nobody likes being called a racist, right?
So we talk about racist acts, as opposed to you are being racist. Racism is hidden. You have the very overt in our politeness as a culture, you don't really see a lot of the overt, which allows people to think that racism no longer exists because you have no one dragging a black man lynching. You're not seeing black men hanging off trees, right?
So, of course, we have no racism. Well, that's the furthest thing away from truth. My truth. The truth of many black folk living in this space. How racism operates is in the very covert. And oftentimes, so, we have folks who would use. Merit. And this is the argument, oftentimes, to clear our systems of all of these.
Why do we have EDI offices? Let folks get in on their own merit. Except what we don't understand is that merit, that notion of merit, it's really built on something else.
[00:34:35] Rita Burke: The structure that you talked, the structures that you talked about, 
[00:34:39] Kathy Hogarth: right. Those structures that exist and have existed for centuries and built on the backs of people that look like me, right? To benefit people that don't look like me. Those structures still influence. Today. And so notions of merit. Well, you can come in.
If you have the degree, you can get into the university, but who's getting these degrees, who's allowed to get these degrees? Well, anybody can get a degree. Education is free. Well, is it really free? Let's unpeel some of those structures. When the black mother, Is struggling to make ends meet to feed her family.
How much time can she devote? And this is just a generalization because there are many black mothers who are devoting time to their kids education. But what I'm saying is our system is skewed in such a way that is built on a history. That we cannot talk about merit in its purity. And so for us to, I say we can stop talking about EDI when in fact, let's just use one simple measure, when our systems represent our population.
When I can tell you at my university, we are about maybe two, 3 percent of our university in the professorate black folk. What is the representation of black folk in the general population when we get to representation, if we ever get there. Then let's have a discussion about do we need EDI offices until we get there, we need EDI offices.
[00:36:43] Rita Burke: Wonderful! So that means we're going to send communication to that university in Alberta to let them know unacceptable. 
[00:36:51] Kathy Hogarth: Totally unacceptable. Here's the other thing. I remember a few years ago when we were looking at the Ontario Human Rights Commission, there was a, a race. Portion of it. Oh my goodness.
His name is slipping me right now. The right honorable or Chief Justice. Michael Ock. Michael to Ock ta. That's right. I know. 
[00:37:17] Rita Burke: Yeah, 
[00:37:18] Kathy Hogarth: Yeah. One of the statements Michael Ock made, this is now maybe six, seven years ago. If we don't have data, we have no problem. And if we have no problem, we need no solution.
What the premier of Alberta is going back to, or is pushing for is a problem free society. We have no problem because we have no data. And as long as we remain silent on the data. There is no need for us to work at solutions. 
[00:37:57] Rita Burke: I hear you loud and clear. I hear you loud and clear. So for the benefit of our listeners, we're speaking with Kathy Hogarth, who is a leader at Buford Laurier University.
 Who or what would you say is responsible for the woman that you are today?
[00:38:16] Kathy Hogarth: I grew up with my parents. I give a lot of credit to my parents. I grew up with a faith in a being bigger than myself and that faith I still carry, but I grew up with parents, a dad who was a laborer. He worked in a factory all of my life and a mom who was a housewife, 12 kids. And never once.
In my recollection, somebody may recollect it differently for me, but never once in my recollection did we go hungry. Not only did we not grow, go hungry, our house,
12 kids. Our house was always a place where somebody's friend who's having a really difficult time is sleeping on a couch or is coming home for food. My mother always made sure there was more food than was necessary because you never know who's going to come by. And our shut in neighbor up the street, Ms.
Hildred, she was blind and my mother would always make sure that our neighbor had a meal. Those were the parents I grew up with and those were the life lessons I learned from early. How to care for my neighbor, because my neighbor is an extension of me, how to ensure that there's always an, and I bring it into the business world, right into my, my, Business dealings right now that my co worker is an extension of me and there is always a warm couch.
There is always an open door because if we suffer, we are going to suffer together because when we triumph, we also triumph together, right? My win is not just my win. When I win, my family wins, my friends win. We all win. And when I fall, oh, there's a lot when I fall. So, I think for me being who I am, this family I grew up in, I give credit to, but here's the other thing.
I remember when I started, when I was doing my PhD, I had a group of women. Rita, you talked about the Congress for black women and the likes of Janet Ford and Chloe Callender, Marcia Smelly. So when I was doing my PhD, I was researching on the lived experiences of immigrant women in Canada. woman from the Congress of black woman decided that they were going to come together and support the life of me.
Not the life out of me, but the life of me. And I remember sitting in a room with them. They became my interview participants, but their stories were so rich. And today, 2023, what day is it in November? The 6th of November. Many of these women, as they're alive, are still a part of my life and my well being.
Marcia Smelly calls me often, Kathy, how are you doing? You need to see this. You need to be here. You need to do this. We are just thinking about you. So I have this huge crowd of people who's always working in the background. They may not be seen. But they're always there. The one thing I say, Rita, is we walk on the shoulders, we stand on the shoulders of giants, always.
There are many whose voices, earlier you talked about Viola Desmond and all the greats. And the greats, they are great! But the unnamed supporters, the ones who are just bringing you water with a little sugar in there to keep up your energy when you're weak, right? The unnamed, the ones who don't get the camera screens, those are also the giants.
 On whose shoulders I'm standing. So I can't name any one person. There's a whole host of folks who I have to give credit to for where I am today. When I was doing my PhD, there was a woman. Her name is Marta Koumsa. Marta Kouwe Koumsa. She was a professor. at Laurier at the time and that woman, she made sure I was okay.
She took me under her wings as a student and from the simple things like food. Do you need food? Right? She made sure I was okay, not just academically, but physically okay. It is those. And I say to myself, that's who I strive to be in the life of others. Yes, I do all this work about mobilizing community, championing, being an advocate for EDI, globally doing all this work.
But when it comes down, when the rubber meets the road, I want to know that I am good. to this person beside me. I want to know that someone can find a safe refuge in me in the ways I found safe refuge in others. 
[00:43:54] Elton Brown: You know, in SpeakUP! International, this is one of the things that we do, is that we look for these individuals who are in the background, who go about doing the good work, no one really recognizes them.
And we pride ourselves on finding these individuals and bringing them to the forefront just to say thank you for your service. It's very energizing to be recognized and for someone just to say thank you for your service. And here at SpeakUP! International, we are determined to continue to do that.
Your entire life is built on your family love. And I think because of the love that you received from your close knit family, you were able to become the, uh, social worker um, the psychologist and use these tools out of love. In order to promote the good in people. And even though these systems are bent, the power of love will straighten them out.
Maybe not as straight as we want today, but little by little. And... I really want to thank you for the achievements that you've done in your current role at your university. So I'm just. Going to ask you, okay, you do a lot of things at the college, but then you also do a few things outside of the college.
Are you still the Canadian, um, the president of the Canadian Association for social work education? 
[00:46:05] Kathy Hogarth: Uh, no. So I was the vice president for the college and, when I became Dean, I think I gave up that my term ended and so I'm no longer, I no longer hold that title.
[00:46:23] Elton Brown: I'm sure that you were wonderful while you were in that position. 
[00:46:28] Kathy Hogarth: Here's the thing I say about that position and many others. So, some of the other things I did as a result of that, and I talk about stepping stones. One of my students, many years ago when I taught at Western, many moons ago, one of my students said in a Fairwell speech, don't be sad that.
You are leaving. Be happy that you were here. I think oftentimes about stepping stones and how the things we've left have become stones or steps to something greater. I didn't arrive where I'm magically by some fairy dust. No, it was a series of steps. And stops and starts along the way that got me to where I am today and undoubtedly where I am today is another step to somewhere else in my journey.
And so, I am no longer the Vice President of the Canadian Social Work, the Association for Social Work Educators. But I see my. Step that position I held the position as the president for NAFSA, the North American region and doing the work of international on the global stage for the social work profession was a real step of material step to the role I have now, 
[00:48:07] Elton Brown: You know, I really think that. You have done so much for our communities and not just our communities, but on an international level. And that in itself is impressive. Thank you. And so being the social worker. And the psychologist and advocate all rolled into one is. Amazing. And we certainly appreciate it. And we are so glad that you were able to spend some time with us, SpeakUP! International.
And we're looking forward to having you back in the near future. 
[00:48:51] Kathy Hogarth: Thank you so much to both of you. Thank you. I really appreciate taking the time to have this conversation. 
[00:49:00] Elton Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Dr. Kathy Hogarth, please leave your name and that you wish to get in contact with Dr. Hogarth with your email address to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 
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