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So first off, I just want to say as we're doing this, this is sort of a historic pod.
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It's the first pod from the new studio.
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And I will be distracted by looking out the window at people on the sidewalks of New York.
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It was happening to me during LFG, I was doing a grotto thing.
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So if I get distracted as I'm talking to Wombat and Empress Trash today, forgive me.
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And so both of you, thank you for joining first of all, but forgive my distractions.
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I'm not used to having people walking by as I'm doing this.
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It's the best.
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Having a corner unit with people watching is just so optimal.
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Oh, and yeah, and I'm here, I'm like in the heart of it, in Dumbo,
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and have just lots of things to distract me and look out at.
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So the train's going by, so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
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The grotto didn't seem to mind the train.
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I'm in a bigger space than we're used to, it's a little cavernous,
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there's tinny on the sound, but hey, that's part of it.
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It's fun.
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Is it the trash trains or the regular trains?
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It's subway trains.
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OK, OK.
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Yeah, it's Manhattan Bridge shaking me.
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I'm literally, you know, the Dumbo is down under Manhattan Bridge overpass.
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That's where my studio is.
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Literally, I look up and there's the bridge.
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So that's awesome.
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It's pretty cool.
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But that being said, you know what else is cool?
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Watching people in our space, in this NFT space,
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shake the foundations of traditional art world.
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And the reason I want to talk to you guys this week is we're all watching this play
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out and never to stretch your foot in the middle of it.
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But just for context, as people might listen to this later on,
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but of course, Sotheby's had an auction slate with glitch artists
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and they were all male identifying male artists,
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not even a glimpse at anybody outside of that realm.
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Even though there was even press around at some of the releases
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and some of the posts showcased female glitch artists work
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as they talk about what is glitch art.
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And then we broke it down, right?
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It all sort of was put to a halt.
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And never to stretch.
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Talk me through.
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Here's what I want to know first off.
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As you sit here, has your life changed in the last week?
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Yeah.
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But also, no.
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OK, good.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah, I do.
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Yeah, tell me about it.
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Talk to me about that.
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I mean, fundamentally, it was all like we're like all of us
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glitch artists that came together were a family.
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We've been a family.
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We've been friends since I got into this space two years ago.
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All of these people have been in my life in some capacity,
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personal, professional, something.
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And so fundamentally, it hasn't changed in all of that.
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We were doing the same stuff that we always do.
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That's hood rat shit with my friends.
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That's pretty much it.
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But it also has changed because, yes, there's been like,
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it blew open so many things.
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And there's been an insane amount of opportunities
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being offered to me and other artists involved within it.
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And I think the biggest thing that has changed for me
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on a personal level is just I feel relief for once.
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I mean, I felt relief in this space
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when we've pushed against certain things before.
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But this one hits different and feels different.
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And so yeah, it's cool that finally people are like,
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super Arizona boarding me finally.
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I'm possibly probably going to be in the stuff of each show.
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There's going to be a lot of things that
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are coming from this.
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But that's all cool.
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But in my mind, I'm like, well, you guys
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are all late to the party.
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You should have been offering me all of this a year ago,
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a year and a half ago.
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You're just catching up to me.
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And what I feel more relief for is
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that a lot of the anger and a lot of the issues, finally,
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I feel like it was heard.
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In a very loud way.
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And a lot of the people who have been pushed aside like me,
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they also haven't heard.
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And it was definitely a whiplash weekend
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because we're so used to pushing and pushing and pushing
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and not getting anywhere.
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And for something to actually give, like it did,
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it was like, OK, this is a turning point.
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But what people don't talk about with a turning point
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is the intensity and energy whiplash you get with it.
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It's like, whoa, OK, now I have to adjust to something
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a little bit different.
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I want to keep pushing forward and moving forward.
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Definitely, this doesn't mean everything is fixed
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and everything has changed.
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It's just I feel like we broke through something.
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And now we can keep pushing.
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It hasn't changed in the broader sense, right?
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It's this moment which shows probably more potential
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for upcoming change, I would imagine.
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But at the same time, it's amazing
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that you have these moments that become
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so substantial in that moment that unlocks that much more
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going forward.
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And at the end of the day, it's not a substantial moment.
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Yeah, because I mean, honestly, we're just
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doing the same thing that we've always been doing.
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You know what I mean?
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It's the same things that we've been saying.
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It's the same anger that we've been bringing to the table.
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It's the same.
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For two years, I've personally been saying a lot of this.
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Stella Bell, for God knows how, she's
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been doing crypto art for five, six, seven years or something.
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And she's been saying it the whole time.
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And Donnie, who is here before me,
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has been saying it the whole time.
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And it's like all of us have been saying this,
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but it was just something.
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I mean, Patrick stepping in was the tipping point.
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And even though we, I don't view him as a white knight coming
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in, he's really trying to hand the narrative over.
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He just saw how when you're in the face of misogyny
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and you're in the face of these systemic things,
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a core thing of misogyny is just not to listen to women.
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You have no respect for the words that they're saying.
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So no matter what's being put down,
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no one's going to listen to you.
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And it does take a man to say the same thing
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or take an action in it.
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I want to come back to that aspect of it.
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I do.
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But I actually kind of, maybe, Wombat,
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are you up for stepping in on this in the sense
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that not to really discuss the Patrick aspect of it yet,
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but that idea of it taking a man's voice
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to draw attention to this.
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What do you take on that, Wombat?
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Well, I mean, my gut instinct is to say,
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like, well, it's kind of fucked up.
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It is.
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That's what it takes, someone on the inside,
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ignoring everything else for so long.
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I mean, hey, there's this weird, is the word stigma?
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There's a stereotype where it's OK for men
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to be harsh about something.
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They're just called an asshole, but it's kind
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of they're being a go-getter.
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And then if a woman is doing that, then they're a bitch.
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And I think that it's so much more complicated than this.
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I think that we can be clear about something
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without getting that label.
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I feel like we need to shed.
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That needs to be shed.
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And so when I see females being really agreeable,
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there's nothing wrong with being agreeable,
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but there's a long trope of females
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being overly agreeable.
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And I think it ought to be OK for us to disagree sometimes.
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Because it's like a rolling issue
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where the longer overagreeableness is an issue,
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then we can't break through that and normalize thing.
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This is unfair.
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You know what I'm saying?
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I agree with a lot of that.
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And I also see the agreeableness as something
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that's so highly socialized into us through the use of violence,
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blatant violence, whether emotional violence,
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physical violence, mental violence.
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But that submissive agreeableness is something
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that is forced on us.
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I don't think naturally women are like that.
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It's just to survive in the systems that are around us.
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We are forced to just smile and nod.
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And it's like, but we don't have to.
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What are we being agreeable to?
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We have power in that.
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And we don't have to hand our power over.
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It's not an easy process to separate yourself
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from that at all.
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I used to be a doormat.
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I used to be someone that everyone,
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I would just agree with everything way before crypto.
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And then at some point, I just snapped.
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And I'm like, no, I'm done.
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I'm just telling everyone to go fuck themselves.
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I'm going to do what I want.
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I don't know.
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Everyone has their own journey with that and everything.
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But it's like, we talk about, oh, men need to change this.
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Men need to change that.
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Well, I also point out what women need to change.
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And that is like, stand up.
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Say things.
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Here's a question for you, Ampers.
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Because you're sort of alluding to it.
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But I'm really curious.
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You're saying that even before you got into crypto art
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and before you got to this place,
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that you were starting to push back.
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And I don't doubt that in the least.
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I mean, it's part of your personality
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that draws me to you.
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And you're as real as it comes.
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We know that.
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You certainly have taken into things.
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You walked us through your story in the past.
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You've taken this on yourself to sort of stand up and say,
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no more.
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When you're doing it now, how much
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and this is an awkward question here,
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but how much more powerful do you
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feel in being able to do it now because you're
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coming from a bit of a place of prominence?
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And has that changed now?
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Because I imagine if we go back in your life
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and the times that you stood up to oppression
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or stood up to violence or stood up to any of this
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that we're talking about, it was maybe scarier to do
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than it is now.
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Now that you're coming from a place of prominence,
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is it more empowering to do that?
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Or is it even scarier that now you're putting even
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that prominence at risk?
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Both.
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It definitely amplifies both because on one hand,
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putting yourself out there like that
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and knowing that the world is full of a lot of hate,
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it puts me more and more in direct physical harm.
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What if some crazy misogynist bigot decides, oh,
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this woman's getting too loud?
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I think about that all the time.
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But it also does empower me.
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And I just get more and more like, fuck it.
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It's like if I'm going to go out that way,
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if someone decides to be crazy or something,
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I might as well just say whatever I want.
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Because why be meek about it and then still be still
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subjected to violence?
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To me, either way, it's like there's going to be violence.
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It's like I might as well push against it,
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if that makes any sense.
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No, it does.
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It makes perfect sense.
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I knew it was a weird question, but there
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was going to be a great answer.
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And that's why I asked it.
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But now for you, Wambat.
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And Wambat and I talk a lot about the bro-y aspect
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of the crypto art space, of the NFT space.
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And Wambat, who has, of course, more real world,
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fine art experience than both of us combined,
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tenfold, right?
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But certainly, there's always been the masculinity approach
258
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,960
to fine art.
259
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,960
And you've seen that throughout your career, Wambat.
260
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,720
But when it comes to this bro-y aspect of the crypto art scene
261
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,320
and the crypto scene in general, how
262
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,320
do you feel that that plays differently even
263
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,400
against just traditional art world man versus woman?
264
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,880
I'm not even sure if it does play out differently.
265
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,360
Because if you want to, when I think about the way
266
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,160
that an auction house usually makes their decisions,
267
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,480
they aren't pacemakers, per se.
268
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,000
And they're just chasing dollars.
269
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,920
So a lot of this bro-y stuff is also just chasing dollars.
270
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,320
The interruption comes in when you can pause and say,
271
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,760
does inclusivity give someone else a chance
272
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,920
to gain that momentum?
273
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,320
And that's the point of what's happening in the past week
274
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,680
or what's been trying to start being underway
275
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:25,880
in the past couple of years.
276
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,880
But I like both genders a lot.
277
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,880
And so I'm not here to take shots at a gender.
278
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,200
This is about turning the volume up
279
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,560
on a group of people where it was inherently associated
280
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,240
with lower value things.
281
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,640
And now it doesn't have to be anymore.
282
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,960
They can have their own volume knob
283
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,360
to turn up a little bit more.
284
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,280
It's a recalibration.
285
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,240
And sometimes it can happen slowly.
286
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,400
Sometimes it happens a little more swiftly.
287
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,480
And it's jarring.
288
00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,680
But I don't know.
289
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,920
I'm very interested to see how it all progresses
290
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,840
along that trajectory.
291
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,080
I think when it comes down to it on something like this one,
292
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:19,680
that for me, I see in this, I'm an outsider.
293
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,880
I consider myself more of an outsider than both of you,
294
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,440
because I barely became an artist
295
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,440
at this point in my life.
296
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,520
I mean, I'm brand new to it.
297
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,720
So I come into this, and I don't have
298
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,480
the experience in either side.
299
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,120
I wasn't a crypto bro before.
300
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,880
I wasn't an art bro before.
301
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,840
OK, I'm just a bro.
302
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,440
Not really.
303
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,040
But I'm coming in, and this is a doofus.
304
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,720
And so I have this doofus approach
305
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,000
to what I think I'm going to find when I get here.
306
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,040
And I expect on the fine art side
307
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,040
for everybody to be intellectual and sensitive and amazing
308
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,280
and cool, because that's what I always wanted them to be.
309
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,320
I always wanted the fine art world to be made of.
310
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,720
Oh, is that what this is about?
311
00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,720
OK.
312
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,200
And I have these expectations of people being awesome.
313
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,960
And then when I get to the crypto side,
314
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,800
I imagine that they're going to be analytically
315
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:16,880
edgy and cool and counterculture and separatists and all
316
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,880
these things that I like.
317
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,840
So I expect a lot from both of these sides.
318
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,160
And when I get here, I don't find any of it on either side.
319
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,800
I mean, it's just a fucking bunch of assholes,
320
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:24,880
for the most part, right?
321
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,320
On both ends.
322
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,440
But I'm shocked sometimes when I hear about this,
323
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,280
because I didn't grow up in it.
324
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,400
I didn't live in it for very long until just now.
325
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,920
But I'm always shocked that I shouldn't be.
326
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,440
I know that.
327
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,840
But I'm shocked that it's such a heavy bias.
328
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,440
And it's stilted so much against them.
329
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,600
When I think of all the artists that I knew growing up,
330
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,800
and I grew up in the desert and San Francisco,
331
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,960
where there's such a huge artist community,
332
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,320
and they were all queer or they were all women
333
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,360
or they were all awesome in some realm,
334
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,720
and I just grew up thinking that's what it was going to be.
335
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,240
The books I read were about people that were queer
336
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,560
and awesome and broad and open.
337
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,200
And so when I run into this stuff, I'm just shocked.
338
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,000
And I know that you guys, the two of you in particular,
339
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,880
have lived in this world in a different way
340
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,160
than I have coming into it.
341
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,800
And I don't want to be naive and play this card
342
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,640
that I think it might sound as if I'm hearing my own voice.
343
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,280
But I'm disappointed by it.
344
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,200
And I think the two of you,
345
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,560
in any conversations I've had with you about it,
346
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,520
in particular, Wombat, you're really just telling me,
347
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:40,520
this is how it is.
348
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,520
This is what it's always been.
349
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,520
This last week in one South Beach show
350
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,520
is not shocking or appalling in its nuance.
351
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,720
It's just what it is.
352
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,120
Am I wrong there?
353
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,960
Am I wrong in saying, come on, threes,
354
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,000
just wake up and understand that this is what this is
355
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,840
and stop with the fantasy land?
356
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,600
Well, it doesn't have to be.
357
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:06,520
Yeah, go ahead.
358
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,800
Well, I think you're seeing both realities though.
359
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,720
I think you're not in any fantasy land.
360
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,920
You're seeing the discrepancies in it,
361
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,920
in that the queer weirdos and the,
362
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,440
just the weirdos in general are the culture makers.
363
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,320
And then they don't get any of the funding.
364
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,280
They don't get any of the money.
365
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,160
And that has been what it's been a long time.
366
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,880
And unless they, we, they,
367
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840
like I'm saying they in a historical day,
368
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,200
unless they did something radical
369
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,160
to just shift the power dynamics,
370
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,960
nothing would have changed.
371
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,600
Nothing at all would have changed.
372
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,960
And one thing I like to point out,
373
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,720
because I just don't think people think about this.
374
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,520
It was only until 1970,
375
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,880
like women in the United States had to get permission
376
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,280
from their husband or their father
377
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,440
to have a checking account or credit card.
378
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,320
We're not even in a hundred years
379
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,480
of women having fiscal autonomy.
380
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,840
And then you compound that with like the art market,
381
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,680
which is a business, the art market is business.
382
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760
I mean, it's about art, but it's business.
383
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,320
And where it doesn't have representation historically,
384
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,880
also it's not until the 20th century
385
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,880
that you see women actually start being like researched
386
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,680
and talked about historically
387
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,680
and like retroactively researched,
388
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,480
like, cause they were wiped out from history.
389
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,960
And then historians are like trying to find them
390
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,080
because they know there were women artists before,
391
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,760
but they just were written out.
392
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,520
And so both of these things,
393
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,520
we have less than a century of women being taken seriously
394
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,040
by the institutions and by the people who do write
395
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,280
the history that indoctrinates everyone else.
396
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,280
But it doesn't mean that the history isn't there.
397
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,000
And it doesn't mean like we haven't been there.
398
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,840
We have been there.
399
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,360
That's the whole point.
400
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,040
Like one of the central people of the Dada art movement
401
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,880
was a woman and like, you never remember a name
402
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,840
because I'm so horrible with names
403
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,080
and I really should just have like a little list.
404
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,560
You need to write that one down
405
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,040
because it would really help with the moments.
406
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,360
I'll Google it and want that.
407
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,960
There was a woman, I don't really,
408
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,400
I even, I don't remember what she was.
409
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,360
No, I don't even remember men's names.
410
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:45,200
So this is just a-
411
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,520
I have this problem too.
412
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,520
I know, I know.
413
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Well, so let's jump back in.
414
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:54,920
And you know, I hate it.
415
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,280
Normally I like to just freeform it,
416
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,520
but we have a hard out today.
417
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,520
And my beloved FOMO boy collector of mine
418
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,800
who came for a visit yesterday,
419
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,600
it was like 45 minutes to the sweet spot.
420
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,360
Get the Wednesday pod down to 45 minutes
421
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:07,680
and we'll have a banger.
422
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,000
So I'm kind of even trying to put that too.
423
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,000
But I want to know, I want to talk about Patrick Amidon.
424
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,880
Okay.
425
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,520
I want to talk about this idea of it being his voice
426
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,520
to sort of rattle the cage enough.
427
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,200
Both of you know him.
428
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,040
I've met him, I've hung with him a bit.
429
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,280
We've tried, he famously stood me up on the pod last week.
430
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,440
He was supposed to be my guest last week,
431
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,560
which would have been a great time
432
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:38,960
to talk about certain things.
433
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,480
But he fucking no shit.
434
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,760
I'll shame him.
435
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,480
Oh yeah, and he didn't respond to my DMs,
436
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,200
even though during the pod,
437
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,600
he was commenting on his comments.
438
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,640
I'm just saying he's not on my number one hero list, but.
439
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:53,480
Oh no.
440
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:56,960
You guys know him.
441
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,040
Drama.
442
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,360
You guys know him well and you know,
443
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,160
are definitely in the scene, right?
444
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,200
So, start with you Wombat,
445
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,640
because I've heard some spaces and stuff with you,
446
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,760
Epirus, already, but I want Wombat's take on it
447
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,160
being Patrick's voice.
448
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,600
And is that, how good a thing is that?
449
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,880
Is there anything wrong with that?
450
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:24,960
Putting you on the spot.
451
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,160
Well, I would say that it's also like Una's voice
452
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,920
and Stella and Empress Trash.
453
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,920
I mean, is it ownership of one person?
454
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,920
No, and that's the whole point in general.
455
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,960
And like, I'm not saying, like when I said it,
456
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,240
like his voice was needed, I mean that.
457
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,480
And like in the face of misogyny,
458
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,440
that's not gonna listen to us.
459
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,320
But it's an amplification of all the other voices
460
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,920
that are there, which is, you know, like Wombat said,
461
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,920
it's like me, Stella, Una, Dania, like Wonder Mundo, Epic.
462
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040
Like, there's hundreds more too.
463
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,600
It's just like impossible to list everyone out.
464
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,480
But like, we wanna get to, like the ideal is to get
465
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,240
to a point that a woman's voice is valued as much.
466
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,480
But the reality is, in some of the systems
467
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,840
that we work in, they're not.
468
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,840
And the action to pull out of a show, like he did,
469
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,520
like that action was the statement that resounded.
470
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,520
Like that action, like what do the auction houses care about?
471
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,040
They care about the money.
472
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,760
And it's like, if he's gonna pull his art out
473
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200
so they can't get the money, well, like,
474
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,640
they want that money and that's all they care.
475
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,600
Like, I mean, not everyone in the auction house
476
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,000
is like that, but I mean, fundamentally as an institution,
477
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,440
that's what they care about.
478
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,640
So, I don't know.
479
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080
Like, and like one thing that's really frustrating with it
480
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,120
is like people are gonna perceive it all
481
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:16,960
however they perceive it.
482
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,280
And yes, he got applauded and, you know,
483
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,240
oh, good job, like, blah, blah, blah.
484
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,160
Like, this is what you do.
485
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,360
You stand up for women, which is like, that's great.
486
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:33,720
But then a lot of people, and the initial part of it
487
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,200
were ignoring the women completely.
488
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,600
Like, they were just like, Amidon did it.
489
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,080
And we had to make a concerted effort
490
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,360
to make sure that we weren't deplatformed in it.
491
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,720
And Amidon helped that too.
492
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,000
Did that include a direct message to Patrick
493
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,840
to remind him that he didn't do it by himself?
494
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,520
No, like he knew.
495
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,800
Like he knew.
496
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,840
He wasn't trying, like from the get-go, he wasn't trying.
497
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,640
Not to just, and I mean, he listens.
498
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,760
He listened, like he obviously listened enough
499
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,600
to pull out of the show.
500
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,000
Why would he stop listening once he pulled out of the show?
501
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,960
Like, that would be like probably the worst thing
502
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,480
he could do and then he would get the ire of us.
503
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,840
And then he becomes part of the problem.
504
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,080
So, like, he's listening.
505
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:25,960
He's still listening.
506
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,680
I mean, we're like, everyone's communicating now.
507
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,800
We weren't like communicating before
508
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,920
besides the chaos that came together.
509
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,760
But now we are communicating.
510
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,080
What's your feeling about the reaction
511
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,160
from the other male artists involved
512
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,960
in that particular auction and their response?
513
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,440
Their response, not a condemnation
514
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,560
or approval of them from before,
515
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,760
but their response and how they've handled it.
516
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,720
I am not trying to judge them
517
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,840
because I don't want this, like personally,
518
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,480
I'm working through things with it
519
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,360
because I don't want it to be a divisive point
520
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,960
because the glitch community always has been
521
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,000
somewhat tight-knit.
522
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,760
Not everyone in the show is like friends of mine,
523
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,400
and, you know, but everyone's like related to each other
524
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,800
and like friends with each other in some way.
525
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,800
And so I think baseline, my fundamental takeaway
526
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,720
after like a couple of days of processing
527
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,720
is some of them have probably never felt
528
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,120
the repercussions of their inaction before
529
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,680
and being complicit in the system,
530
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,160
and they've always benefited from it.
531
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,600
And now they are feeling the repercussions of it.
532
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Now they're not benefiting from it.
533
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,800
And I don't know if they have the coping mechanisms for that
534
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,360
because it's a new experience for them.
535
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,520
And so whatever happens, like I'm trying to take
536
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,480
that in consideration with how people are reacting
537
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,640
in general and not loading more emotions onto the situation,
538
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,000
if that makes any sense.
539
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,080
And I'm not trying to excuse any like shit behavior
540
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,440
that may have happened or can happen or whatever,
541
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,440
but it's more so like, I think about when I've experienced
542
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,080
since like something so profoundly out of my element,
543
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,320
how it's a testament to the person themselves,
544
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,960
like how they react to that.
545
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,040
And it's not on me, it's not on anyone else,
546
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,800
it's totally on them, but that's what accountability is
547
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,920
at the end of the day.
548
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,680
And so that's my takeaway.
549
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:51,960
Okay, here's another question.
550
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,160
And then I want Wombats response to both of these, okay?
551
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,440
The first one I just asked you,
552
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,840
I want Wombats respond to that.
553
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,200
But I also want to ask you, Emperors,
554
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,440
when it comes to the selection of this particular group,
555
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,800
and I think this speaks not just to debacle
556
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,160
that Sotheby's put themselves into curation here, right?
557
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,080
I'm talking about overall in this space,
558
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,720
how many of those artists were you surprised to learn
559
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,040
via their inclusion in the Sotheby's auction
560
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,440
that they're glitch artists?
561
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,800
I knew, because I stand at the intersection
562
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,000
of a lot of stuff, and I knew a lot of them
563
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,280
considered themselves glitch artists
564
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,520
or other people attributed glitch to them.
565
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,280
In my mind, they are illustrative glitch in a lot of ways,
566
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,560
which I wouldn't necessarily, it's still glitch in my mind,
567
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,280
but my, like the roots of glitch art are to me
568
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,800
in like analog glitch art,
569
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,880
and then morphing into digital glitch art.
570
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,960
And then morphing into the illustrative glitch art.
571
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Like the illustrative glitch art that they do are doing,
572
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,000
I feel is like a fruit of a very huge tree
573
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,640
that's been growing since like the 1960s.
574
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,560
So, and glitch is a diverse genre in and of itself.
575
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,680
It's like EDM.
576
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,040
It's like, there's so many different types,
577
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,880
like you can break it down into so many subgenres.
578
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,880
But to only showcase the fruits and not,
579
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,200
and like, and try to exploit the tree and the roots,
580
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,080
like this is kind of what happens.
581
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,440
So that's it.
582
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,720
You know what I mean?
583
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:35,560
No, I do.
584
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880
I think that's a great response to that question.
585
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,880
And so how much of the response
586
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,520
and the quick action towards this could be derived
587
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,840
not only from the dismissal of ovaries
588
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,200
and their adjacent pieces,
589
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,520
but also to that same fruit aspect of that tree.
590
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,360
I mean, is a part of the response to this
591
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,160
come from any sort of division in the glitch community
592
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,000
to feel that?
593
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,560
I mean, was this a true pronged response
594
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,360
or is this strictly a response as it's been put forward
595
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:17,920
that it's about gender?
596
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,840
I think it's more of, I mean, within the glitch community,
597
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,400
I don't know, because some of the people
598
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,560
that were in the show were my friends, or are my friends,
599
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,040
not were, but are my friends.
600
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,560
And so, I mean, like I said,
601
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,400
like there's so many different aspects to it.
602
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,800
I fundamentally still just think it's a gender
603
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,440
and LGBTQ issue.
604
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,240
Like, because when you break down who is being,
605
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840
like who is the haves and who's the have-nots
606
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,240
within our community, kind of breaks down like that too.
607
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,160
And I also view it, like,
608
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,640
the biggest thing that I view with it
609
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,280
is that Sotheby's chose who they thought
610
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,080
they were gonna make money off of.
611
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,400
And all of these people have been pumped up a lot
612
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,400
within the crypto scene.
613
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,440
And that's fine, great, like let people make their bags.
614
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,120
But the whole thing that we've been saying,
615
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,800
like I've been saying for two years now,
616
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,600
is you can't just pump up a bunch of dudes
617
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,240
and then like when it comes around
618
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,560
that the art world comes in hot and heavy,
619
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,800
we're gonna be marginalized again,
620
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,880
as like women, LGBTQ, BIPOC people.
621
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,320
Like we're gonna be pushed aside
622
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,560
because the truth, like when the auction houses come in,
623
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,200
they just are gonna look at the numbers
624
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,480
and we're not gonna be in the top 100 artists.
625
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,480
And I do view it as a failing on the crypto art market too.
626
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,160
Like while stood beside us and a lot of people, you know,
627
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
backed us up, there is also a fundamental failing
628
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,480
in the market because it's not just like this one instance.
629
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,400
This is years of building something
630
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,760
that was inequitable again,
631
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,320
but like hyper inflating it, you know?
632
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,440
And we're saying no, like we're saying,
633
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,880
if we're gonna be building like blockchain and Web3
634
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,280
in the future of the art market, we're saying no to that.
635
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,120
We're saying no more to this inequity.
636
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,840
We're saying like, you need to like balance this out.
637
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,880
It's like art is all speculation anyway.
638
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
It's like, why don't you speculate that the women,
639
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,480
women's work is gonna be valuable in the future?
640
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,920
Like, are you planning on just like making all women
641
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,200
like obliterated from culture in the future?
642
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000
Like, why aren't you speculating that?
643
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,360
That's always what I think.
644
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,600
And if you actually look at the data,
645
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,640
like women's artwork has been raising in value
646
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,600
in the traditional art market slowly, but surely.
647
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,600
And if you're gonna be buying things based off of just money
648
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,200
and chasing money, like why wouldn't you buy the things
649
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,040
that probably are gonna have a really good return
650
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,560
on investment because they're being undervalued
651
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,320
at this point, like extremely undervalued.
652
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,080
And if women analogy being undervalued,
653
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,080
like buy it and start valuing it.
654
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Well, I wanna hear, no, no, listen, this is actually,
655
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,120
there's a great moment for me to throw a wombat
656
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,120
in the next year because from, I think that that sense
657
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,400
of undervalue, speaking to the idea that truly,
658
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,640
everything we're even talking about,
659
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,960
the fact that we're talking about Sotheby's,
660
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,920
the type of talking about any of this,
661
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,320
is because we're in a very speculative market.
662
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,440
That's what this is all about.
663
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,640
We're wrestling over the dollars that are being spent
664
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,160
in a speculative fashion, almost predominantly.
665
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,160
And so for me, the idea, look, not to toot my own horn here,
666
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,920
but I, as an investor, find many of my favorite artists
667
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,960
that I collect from a speculative sense
668
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,200
to be so wildly undervalued.
669
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,240
Okay, and wombat being one of them here,
670
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,400
that I'm all on, I'm all on board with what you just said,
671
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:27,320
in that regard, like from the speculative side.
672
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,080
And so wombat, walk me through, if you can,
673
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,600
how you've lived your life
674
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,640
from a curatorial affectation, right?
675
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,240
Like how this has come at you in what you've seen
676
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:46,240
in the curatorial process for the last 10 or 15 years,
677
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,200
and how that's playing out now,
678
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,880
because you're sort of in that same realm, I think,
679
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,880
where you're very often dismissed in the curation process
680
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,880
because of not coming up with the sort of sales volumes
681
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,120
against some of your peers, the male peers, right?
682
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,200
Where do we stand on that as you come into it now?
683
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,720
Is there change on the horizon?
684
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:12,000
Is this the sort of thing
685
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,960
that puts you in a better mood going forward,
686
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,080
or is this an uphill battle for you?
687
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,440
You mean, is this the thing as in the stuff of these,
688
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,120
like recent event?
689
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,680
Well, yeah, I mean, is this,
690
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,360
when you look at this week, right?
691
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,600
You look at this past seven days or whatever,
692
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,120
is that, does it just dredge up again,
693
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,960
your things that the curatorial process has left out,
694
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,720
or is it, or are you feeling that there's a breakdown
695
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,360
coming, I mean, what's gonna happen here?
696
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,560
This is a rough question,
697
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,520
but I'd love to hear your take on it.
698
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,400
I think that, I think it's good news.
699
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,320
I don't think it's like groundbreaking
700
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,600
and it's the end all be all,
701
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,440
but the more we see these little earthquakes happen,
702
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,840
the more it shows change.
703
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,080
It's funny too, because when you asked me the question,
704
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,680
like about like my, when you ask about my long history,
705
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,200
it gets so convoluted less with gender issues for me,
706
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,400
and more with like the fact that I made digital art at all,
707
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,680
and that was what was not included in everything.
708
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,920
So like at this point, it's like hard for me to parcel out
709
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,600
when you go back far enough,
710
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560
what type of discrimination, you know,
711
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,680
I might've been under.
712
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,680
Yeah, it gets confusing.
713
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,680
Well, walk us through any of those discriminations
714
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,800
and how they're playing out today.
715
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,800
And I mean, do you see yourself making more headway
716
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:43,640
at this point?
717
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Are we at a point where via the crypto art movement
718
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,920
that you're moving at a quicker pace
719
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,520
towards breaking free of some of those discriminations?
720
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,520
Oh yeah, I absolutely believe that.
721
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,520
It's just, it takes repetition of surviving in the space,
722
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,160
you know, and then exponential growth, like with your art.
723
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,560
This has been a big shakeout in the past year,
724
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,160
and it's really, it's highlighting the remaining people.
725
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,800
I think that that's a huge function in all this too.
726
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,160
You're saying it's saying a shakeout
727
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,160
in the crypto art market, and who's surviving there?
728
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,320
Is that what you're talking about?
729
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,320
It shows who's serious, like, it really sucks to,
730
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,280
Infer's trash, I'm so glad that you threw out
731
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,160
all those statistics earlier that you did about employment.
732
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,040
And you know, basically like women have only been formally
733
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,560
kind of sometimes employed for like a hundred years
734
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,960
and all of that, it's all very relevant.
735
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,240
And I would have probably gotten around to it
736
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:47,760
if you didn't do it.
737
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,160
But like, the truth is, is like,
738
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,600
I guess there's been a history where people have thought
739
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,640
like women are gonna have, be forced childbearing
740
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,880
and have no resources left to do anything else
741
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,720
with their life.
742
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,320
And it's just like, nothing is like that modern day.
743
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,320
You know, it's like an old habit to get rid of, you know?
744
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,360
So it's just so clearly out of date at this point
745
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,000
that I think any of these little earthquakes
746
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,360
like I was saying, that like signify that
747
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,800
and reiterate that are good.
748
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,800
There's no doubt.
749
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,760
I have been the one who's used to being the guy
750
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,960
everybody wants to talk to in the room when I go to LA
751
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:26,800
that would want that.
752
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,000
I'm just very, the power balance shifts
753
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,320
to say the goddamn least.
754
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,840
But because you both knew Patrick,
755
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,840
and you both know him in that LA sense, okay?
756
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,720
Am I supposed to forgive him for not coming on last week
757
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:46,920
because he's doing the right thing?
758
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,360
Is that what I'm hearing here?
759
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,720
I want an answer from both of you.
760
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:52,080
This is a question.
761
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Am I supposed to forgive Patrick?
762
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,040
I think, I mean, you have to find that forgiveness
763
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,080
in yourself.
764
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:04,640
I don't think.
765
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:07,080
I will say this.
766
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,520
Well, first of all, Juan, man, I want an answer.
767
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,360
Am I supposed to forgive, is Patrick,
768
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,880
is he doing the right thing?
769
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Here's what you do.
770
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,600
You get him to come on here at a later date
771
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,880
because I still want to hear this conversation
772
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:20,920
between the two of you.
773
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,240
Whatever it ends up being, it's going to be gold.
774
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:24,080
Please.
775
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,640
Well, right now I'm left on unread.
776
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,520
So I don't know how that's going to go.
777
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,200
Look, I will say this.
778
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,520
I think Patrick, by dropping out of that show
779
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,240
and by stepping away from it
780
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:46,640
and telling people he was doing that,
781
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,520
I think at the very least,
782
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,680
and I agree with everything you said, Empress Trash.
783
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,160
I think, you know, I do, it's an important thing.
784
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,200
I'm glad it happened.
785
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,360
Very glad it happened.
786
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,000
But I think at the very least,
787
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,560
he's going to come out of it
788
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,480
having dodged the plan for this week's episode,
789
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
which was going to be my absolute assassination
790
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,280
of Patrick Amidaw.
791
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,120
And now-
792
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,680
You think it was all him just trying to cover up.
793
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,320
I'm not going to go as far as to say,
794
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,800
but perhaps Patrick was running interference
795
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,800
against my wrath.
796
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,360
And as such, I saved all of the,
797
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,520
I'm the one, I'm the catalyst.
798
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,840
Can we just please recognize the three stepped up
799
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,440
and brought Sotheby's to his knees?
800
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,960
That's some fucking chest maneuvering for sure.
801
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,160
I'm just saying, can we please recognize game
802
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,240
where we have to go?
803
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,000
All right, I think that's a yes.
804
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,240
So I feel better.
805
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:54,640
I did pick the right two ladies
806
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,520
to have my first podcast threesome.
807
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,840
Do appreciate you guys there.
808
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:02,960
So thank you.
809
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,600
But no, seriously, it means a lot.
810
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,400
I hit Empress up late this afternoon
811
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,440
and she's doing this on a whim,
812
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,280
one that only said she would come on
813
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,760
if I can get Empress trash on.
814
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,040
So I appreciate both of you.
815
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Like I said, anytime.
816
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,320
Yeah, anytime.
817
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,440
It's good to have these little conversations.
818
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,920
And this is a big conversation.
819
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Which I'm, you know, look at this light.
820
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,480
Look at my, look how pretty I look.
821
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,320
You're glowing. Beautiful, golden.
822
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,480
The podcast people can't see it,
823
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,680
but you're glowing right now.
824
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:37,680
I can kind of, this is,
825
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,960
I'm looking out of Manhattan across there.
826
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,760
I've got the sun, wow, amazing.
827
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,480
Okay guys, we'll let Kitch go
828
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,680
so you can go produce my other podcast.
829
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,080
I love all three of you.
830
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,640
Kitch, you're the best in the business.
831
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,160
Empress trash, you're fucking gold.
832
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,320
And Wombat, thank you for everything.
833
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,680
See everybody next week.
834
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Thank you guys.
835
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,440
Thank you too.
836
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:16,440
Ciao.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,880
So first off, I just want to say as we're doing this, this is sort of a historic pod.
2
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,720
It's the first pod from the new studio.
3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:16,840
And I will be distracted by looking out the window at people on the sidewalks of New York.
4
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,760
It was happening to me during LFG, I was doing a grotto thing.
5
00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:27,240
So if I get distracted as I'm talking to Wombat and Empress Trash today, forgive me.
6
00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,160
And so both of you, thank you for joining first of all, but forgive my distractions.
7
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,200
I'm not used to having people walking by as I'm doing this.
8
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,480
It's the best.
9
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,200
Having a corner unit with people watching is just so optimal.
10
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,880
Oh, and yeah, and I'm here, I'm like in the heart of it, in Dumbo,
11
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,320
and have just lots of things to distract me and look out at.
12
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,640
So the train's going by, so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
13
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,720
The grotto didn't seem to mind the train.
14
00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,520
I'm in a bigger space than we're used to, it's a little cavernous,
15
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,680
there's tinny on the sound, but hey, that's part of it.
16
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:01,840
It's fun.
17
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,920
Is it the trash trains or the regular trains?
18
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,920
It's subway trains.
19
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,200
OK, OK.
20
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,080
Yeah, it's Manhattan Bridge shaking me.
21
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,000
I'm literally, you know, the Dumbo is down under Manhattan Bridge overpass.
22
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:18,160
That's where my studio is.
23
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,800
Literally, I look up and there's the bridge.
24
00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,840
So that's awesome.
25
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,080
It's pretty cool.
26
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,400
But that being said, you know what else is cool?
27
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,440
Watching people in our space, in this NFT space,
28
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,680
shake the foundations of traditional art world.
29
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:42,440
And the reason I want to talk to you guys this week is we're all watching this play
30
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,480
out and never to stretch your foot in the middle of it.
31
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:50,960
But just for context, as people might listen to this later on,
32
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:56,760
but of course, Sotheby's had an auction slate with glitch artists
33
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,320
and they were all male identifying male artists,
34
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:08,280
not even a glimpse at anybody outside of that realm.
35
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,080
Even though there was even press around at some of the releases
36
00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:16,760
and some of the posts showcased female glitch artists work
37
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,320
as they talk about what is glitch art.
38
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:20,760
And then we broke it down, right?
39
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,200
It all sort of was put to a halt.
40
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,400
And never to stretch.
41
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,640
Talk me through.
42
00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:29,960
Here's what I want to know first off.
43
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,800
As you sit here, has your life changed in the last week?
44
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,480
Yeah.
45
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,480
But also, no.
46
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,920
OK, good.
47
00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:41,000
You know what I mean?
48
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:41,680
Yeah, I do.
49
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,520
Yeah, tell me about it.
50
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:43,440
Talk to me about that.
51
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:49,120
I mean, fundamentally, it was all like we're like all of us
52
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,080
glitch artists that came together were a family.
53
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,640
We've been a family.
54
00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:59,360
We've been friends since I got into this space two years ago.
55
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,440
All of these people have been in my life in some capacity,
56
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,160
personal, professional, something.
57
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:15,680
And so fundamentally, it hasn't changed in all of that.
58
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,800
We were doing the same stuff that we always do.
59
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,560
That's hood rat shit with my friends.
60
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,680
That's pretty much it.
61
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:30,440
But it also has changed because, yes, there's been like,
62
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,040
it blew open so many things.
63
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,200
And there's been an insane amount of opportunities
64
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,240
being offered to me and other artists involved within it.
65
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,400
And I think the biggest thing that has changed for me
66
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,000
on a personal level is just I feel relief for once.
67
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,560
I mean, I felt relief in this space
68
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,800
when we've pushed against certain things before.
69
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,960
But this one hits different and feels different.
70
00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:05,640
And so yeah, it's cool that finally people are like,
71
00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,720
super Arizona boarding me finally.
72
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,200
I'm possibly probably going to be in the stuff of each show.
73
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:13,880
There's going to be a lot of things that
74
00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,600
are coming from this.
75
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,480
But that's all cool.
76
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,560
But in my mind, I'm like, well, you guys
77
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,040
are all late to the party.
78
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:28,080
You should have been offering me all of this a year ago,
79
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,040
a year and a half ago.
80
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,520
You're just catching up to me.
81
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,880
And what I feel more relief for is
82
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:41,360
that a lot of the anger and a lot of the issues, finally,
83
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,640
I feel like it was heard.
84
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,320
In a very loud way.
85
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,200
And a lot of the people who have been pushed aside like me,
86
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,400
they also haven't heard.
87
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,440
And it was definitely a whiplash weekend
88
00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,800
because we're so used to pushing and pushing and pushing
89
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,040
and not getting anywhere.
90
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,280
And for something to actually give, like it did,
91
00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:10,000
it was like, OK, this is a turning point.
92
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,280
But what people don't talk about with a turning point
93
00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:16,280
is the intensity and energy whiplash you get with it.
94
00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:20,720
It's like, whoa, OK, now I have to adjust to something
95
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,600
a little bit different.
96
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,320
I want to keep pushing forward and moving forward.
97
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,720
Definitely, this doesn't mean everything is fixed
98
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,680
and everything has changed.
99
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,720
It's just I feel like we broke through something.
100
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,280
And now we can keep pushing.
101
00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:42,000
It hasn't changed in the broader sense, right?
102
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,120
It's this moment which shows probably more potential
103
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,120
for upcoming change, I would imagine.
104
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,320
But at the same time, it's amazing
105
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,040
that you have these moments that become
106
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:04,280
so substantial in that moment that unlocks that much more
107
00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:05,720
going forward.
108
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,080
And at the end of the day, it's not a substantial moment.
109
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,040
Yeah, because I mean, honestly, we're just
110
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,840
doing the same thing that we've always been doing.
111
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:14,800
You know what I mean?
112
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,680
It's the same things that we've been saying.
113
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,880
It's the same anger that we've been bringing to the table.
114
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:20,920
It's the same.
115
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,920
For two years, I've personally been saying a lot of this.
116
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,000
Stella Bell, for God knows how, she's
117
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,760
been doing crypto art for five, six, seven years or something.
118
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,760
And she's been saying it the whole time.
119
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,000
And Donnie, who is here before me,
120
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,440
has been saying it the whole time.
121
00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,720
And it's like all of us have been saying this,
122
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,520
but it was just something.
123
00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,840
I mean, Patrick stepping in was the tipping point.
124
00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:51,080
And even though we, I don't view him as a white knight coming
125
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,040
in, he's really trying to hand the narrative over.
126
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,240
He just saw how when you're in the face of misogyny
127
00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,320
and you're in the face of these systemic things,
128
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,400
a core thing of misogyny is just not to listen to women.
129
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,760
You have no respect for the words that they're saying.
130
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,280
So no matter what's being put down,
131
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,520
no one's going to listen to you.
132
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,880
And it does take a man to say the same thing
133
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,800
or take an action in it.
134
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,680
I want to come back to that aspect of it.
135
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,120
I do.
136
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,600
But I actually kind of, maybe, Wombat,
137
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,520
are you up for stepping in on this in the sense
138
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:36,960
that not to really discuss the Patrick aspect of it yet,
139
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,600
but that idea of it taking a man's voice
140
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:43,840
to draw attention to this.
141
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,360
What do you take on that, Wombat?
142
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,640
Well, I mean, my gut instinct is to say,
143
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,040
like, well, it's kind of fucked up.
144
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,680
It is.
145
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:59,200
That's what it takes, someone on the inside,
146
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,000
ignoring everything else for so long.
147
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,560
I mean, hey, there's this weird, is the word stigma?
148
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,440
There's a stereotype where it's OK for men
149
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,520
to be harsh about something.
150
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,280
They're just called an asshole, but it's kind
151
00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,920
of they're being a go-getter.
152
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,320
And then if a woman is doing that, then they're a bitch.
153
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,080
And I think that it's so much more complicated than this.
154
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,640
I think that we can be clear about something
155
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,120
without getting that label.
156
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,480
I feel like we need to shed.
157
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,240
That needs to be shed.
158
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:39,120
And so when I see females being really agreeable,
159
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,920
there's nothing wrong with being agreeable,
160
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,560
but there's a long trope of females
161
00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:46,720
being overly agreeable.
162
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,240
And I think it ought to be OK for us to disagree sometimes.
163
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,240
Because it's like a rolling issue
164
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,600
where the longer overagreeableness is an issue,
165
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,160
then we can't break through that and normalize thing.
166
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,920
This is unfair.
167
00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,920
You know what I'm saying?
168
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,280
I agree with a lot of that.
169
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,920
And I also see the agreeableness as something
170
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,640
that's so highly socialized into us through the use of violence,
171
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,880
blatant violence, whether emotional violence,
172
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,240
physical violence, mental violence.
173
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,480
But that submissive agreeableness is something
174
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,000
that is forced on us.
175
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,720
I don't think naturally women are like that.
176
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,360
It's just to survive in the systems that are around us.
177
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,640
We are forced to just smile and nod.
178
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,640
And it's like, but we don't have to.
179
00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,480
What are we being agreeable to?
180
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,520
We have power in that.
181
00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,480
And we don't have to hand our power over.
182
00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,200
It's not an easy process to separate yourself
183
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,200
from that at all.
184
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:56,920
I used to be a doormat.
185
00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,000
I used to be someone that everyone,
186
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,120
I would just agree with everything way before crypto.
187
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,120
And then at some point, I just snapped.
188
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,080
And I'm like, no, I'm done.
189
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,000
I'm just telling everyone to go fuck themselves.
190
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,160
I'm going to do what I want.
191
00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,160
I don't know.
192
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,560
Everyone has their own journey with that and everything.
193
00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:23,680
But it's like, we talk about, oh, men need to change this.
194
00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:24,720
Men need to change that.
195
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Well, I also point out what women need to change.
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And that is like, stand up.
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Say things.
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Here's a question for you, Ampers.
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Because you're sort of alluding to it.
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But I'm really curious.
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You're saying that even before you got into crypto art
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and before you got to this place,
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that you were starting to push back.
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And I don't doubt that in the least.
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I mean, it's part of your personality
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that draws me to you.
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And you're as real as it comes.
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We know that.
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You certainly have taken into things.
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You walked us through your story in the past.
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You've taken this on yourself to sort of stand up and say,
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no more.
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When you're doing it now, how much
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and this is an awkward question here,
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but how much more powerful do you
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feel in being able to do it now because you're
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coming from a bit of a place of prominence?
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And has that changed now?
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Because I imagine if we go back in your life
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and the times that you stood up to oppression
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or stood up to violence or stood up to any of this
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that we're talking about, it was maybe scarier to do
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than it is now.
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Now that you're coming from a place of prominence,
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is it more empowering to do that?
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Or is it even scarier that now you're putting even
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that prominence at risk?
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Both.
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It definitely amplifies both because on one hand,
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putting yourself out there like that
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and knowing that the world is full of a lot of hate,
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it puts me more and more in direct physical harm.
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What if some crazy misogynist bigot decides, oh,
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this woman's getting too loud?
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I think about that all the time.
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But it also does empower me.
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And I just get more and more like, fuck it.
238
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It's like if I'm going to go out that way,
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if someone decides to be crazy or something,
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I might as well just say whatever I want.
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Because why be meek about it and then still be still
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subjected to violence?
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To me, either way, it's like there's going to be violence.
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00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,080
It's like I might as well push against it,
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if that makes any sense.
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No, it does.
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00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,600
It makes perfect sense.
248
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I knew it was a weird question, but there
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was going to be a great answer.
250
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And that's why I asked it.
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00:12:59,000 --> 00:12:59,920
But now for you, Wambat.
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00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:06,720
And Wambat and I talk a lot about the bro-y aspect
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of the crypto art space, of the NFT space.
254
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,440
And Wambat, who has, of course, more real world,
255
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fine art experience than both of us combined,
256
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,320
tenfold, right?
257
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:27,280
But certainly, there's always been the masculinity approach
258
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to fine art.
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00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,960
And you've seen that throughout your career, Wambat.
260
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:36,720
But when it comes to this bro-y aspect of the crypto art scene
261
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,320
and the crypto scene in general, how
262
00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,320
do you feel that that plays differently even
263
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against just traditional art world man versus woman?
264
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,880
I'm not even sure if it does play out differently.
265
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,360
Because if you want to, when I think about the way
266
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,160
that an auction house usually makes their decisions,
267
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they aren't pacemakers, per se.
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And they're just chasing dollars.
269
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So a lot of this bro-y stuff is also just chasing dollars.
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The interruption comes in when you can pause and say,
271
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does inclusivity give someone else a chance
272
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,920
to gain that momentum?
273
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,320
And that's the point of what's happening in the past week
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or what's been trying to start being underway
275
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in the past couple of years.
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But I like both genders a lot.
277
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And so I'm not here to take shots at a gender.
278
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,200
This is about turning the volume up
279
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,560
on a group of people where it was inherently associated
280
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,240
with lower value things.
281
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,640
And now it doesn't have to be anymore.
282
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They can have their own volume knob
283
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,360
to turn up a little bit more.
284
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It's a recalibration.
285
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,240
And sometimes it can happen slowly.
286
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Sometimes it happens a little more swiftly.
287
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And it's jarring.
288
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But I don't know.
289
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,920
I'm very interested to see how it all progresses
290
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:04,840
along that trajectory.
291
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,080
I think when it comes down to it on something like this one,
292
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that for me, I see in this, I'm an outsider.
293
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,880
I consider myself more of an outsider than both of you,
294
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,440
because I barely became an artist
295
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,440
at this point in my life.
296
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,520
I mean, I'm brand new to it.
297
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,720
So I come into this, and I don't have
298
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,480
the experience in either side.
299
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,120
I wasn't a crypto bro before.
300
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,880
I wasn't an art bro before.
301
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,840
OK, I'm just a bro.
302
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,440
Not really.
303
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,040
But I'm coming in, and this is a doofus.
304
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,720
And so I have this doofus approach
305
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,000
to what I think I'm going to find when I get here.
306
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,040
And I expect on the fine art side
307
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,040
for everybody to be intellectual and sensitive and amazing
308
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,280
and cool, because that's what I always wanted them to be.
309
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,320
I always wanted the fine art world to be made of.
310
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,720
Oh, is that what this is about?
311
00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,720
OK.
312
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,200
And I have these expectations of people being awesome.
313
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,960
And then when I get to the crypto side,
314
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,800
I imagine that they're going to be analytically
315
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:16,880
edgy and cool and counterculture and separatists and all
316
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,880
these things that I like.
317
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,840
So I expect a lot from both of these sides.
318
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,160
And when I get here, I don't find any of it on either side.
319
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,800
I mean, it's just a fucking bunch of assholes,
320
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:24,880
for the most part, right?
321
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,320
On both ends.
322
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,440
But I'm shocked sometimes when I hear about this,
323
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,280
because I didn't grow up in it.
324
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,400
I didn't live in it for very long until just now.
325
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,920
But I'm always shocked that I shouldn't be.
326
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,440
I know that.
327
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,840
But I'm shocked that it's such a heavy bias.
328
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,440
And it's stilted so much against them.
329
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,600
When I think of all the artists that I knew growing up,
330
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,800
and I grew up in the desert and San Francisco,
331
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,960
where there's such a huge artist community,
332
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,320
and they were all queer or they were all women
333
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,360
or they were all awesome in some realm,
334
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,720
and I just grew up thinking that's what it was going to be.
335
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,240
The books I read were about people that were queer
336
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,560
and awesome and broad and open.
337
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,200
And so when I run into this stuff, I'm just shocked.
338
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,000
And I know that you guys, the two of you in particular,
339
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,880
have lived in this world in a different way
340
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,160
than I have coming into it.
341
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,800
And I don't want to be naive and play this card
342
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,640
that I think it might sound as if I'm hearing my own voice.
343
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,280
But I'm disappointed by it.
344
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,200
And I think the two of you,
345
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,560
in any conversations I've had with you about it,
346
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,520
in particular, Wombat, you're really just telling me,
347
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:40,520
this is how it is.
348
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,520
This is what it's always been.
349
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,520
This last week in one South Beach show
350
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,520
is not shocking or appalling in its nuance.
351
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:53,720
It's just what it is.
352
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,120
Am I wrong there?
353
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,960
Am I wrong in saying, come on, threes,
354
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,000
just wake up and understand that this is what this is
355
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,840
and stop with the fantasy land?
356
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,600
Well, it doesn't have to be.
357
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:06,520
Yeah, go ahead.
358
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,800
Well, I think you're seeing both realities though.
359
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,720
I think you're not in any fantasy land.
360
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,920
You're seeing the discrepancies in it,
361
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,920
in that the queer weirdos and the,
362
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,440
just the weirdos in general are the culture makers.
363
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,320
And then they don't get any of the funding.
364
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,280
They don't get any of the money.
365
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,160
And that has been what it's been a long time.
366
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,880
And unless they, we, they,
367
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840
like I'm saying they in a historical day,
368
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,200
unless they did something radical
369
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,160
to just shift the power dynamics,
370
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,960
nothing would have changed.
371
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,600
Nothing at all would have changed.
372
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,960
And one thing I like to point out,
373
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,720
because I just don't think people think about this.
374
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,520
It was only until 1970,
375
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,880
like women in the United States had to get permission
376
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,280
from their husband or their father
377
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,440
to have a checking account or credit card.
378
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,320
We're not even in a hundred years
379
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,480
of women having fiscal autonomy.
380
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,840
And then you compound that with like the art market,
381
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,680
which is a business, the art market is business.
382
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,760
I mean, it's about art, but it's business.
383
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,320
And where it doesn't have representation historically,
384
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,880
also it's not until the 20th century
385
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,880
that you see women actually start being like researched
386
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,680
and talked about historically
387
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,680
and like retroactively researched,
388
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,480
like, cause they were wiped out from history.
389
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,960
And then historians are like trying to find them
390
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,080
because they know there were women artists before,
391
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,760
but they just were written out.
392
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,520
And so both of these things,
393
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:03,520
we have less than a century of women being taken seriously
394
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,040
by the institutions and by the people who do write
395
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,280
the history that indoctrinates everyone else.
396
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,280
But it doesn't mean that the history isn't there.
397
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,000
And it doesn't mean like we haven't been there.
398
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,840
We have been there.
399
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,360
That's the whole point.
400
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,040
Like one of the central people of the Dada art movement
401
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,880
was a woman and like, you never remember a name
402
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,840
because I'm so horrible with names
403
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,080
and I really should just have like a little list.
404
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,560
You need to write that one down
405
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,040
because it would really help with the moments.
406
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,360
I'll Google it and want that.
407
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,960
There was a woman, I don't really,
408
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,400
I even, I don't remember what she was.
409
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,360
No, I don't even remember men's names.
410
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:45,200
So this is just a-
411
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,520
I have this problem too.
412
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,520
I know, I know.
413
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Well, so let's jump back in.
414
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:54,920
And you know, I hate it.
415
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,280
Normally I like to just freeform it,
416
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,520
but we have a hard out today.
417
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,520
And my beloved FOMO boy collector of mine
418
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,800
who came for a visit yesterday,
419
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,600
it was like 45 minutes to the sweet spot.
420
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,360
Get the Wednesday pod down to 45 minutes
421
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:07,680
and we'll have a banger.
422
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,000
So I'm kind of even trying to put that too.
423
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,000
But I want to know, I want to talk about Patrick Amidon.
424
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:18,880
Okay.
425
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,520
I want to talk about this idea of it being his voice
426
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,520
to sort of rattle the cage enough.
427
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,200
Both of you know him.
428
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,040
I've met him, I've hung with him a bit.
429
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,280
We've tried, he famously stood me up on the pod last week.
430
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,440
He was supposed to be my guest last week,
431
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,560
which would have been a great time
432
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:38,960
to talk about certain things.
433
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,480
But he fucking no shit.
434
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,760
I'll shame him.
435
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,480
Oh yeah, and he didn't respond to my DMs,
436
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,200
even though during the pod,
437
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,600
he was commenting on his comments.
438
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,640
I'm just saying he's not on my number one hero list, but.
439
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:53,480
Oh no.
440
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:56,960
You guys know him.
441
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,040
Drama.
442
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,360
You guys know him well and you know,
443
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,160
are definitely in the scene, right?
444
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,200
So, start with you Wombat,
445
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,640
because I've heard some spaces and stuff with you,
446
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,760
Epirus, already, but I want Wombat's take on it
447
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,160
being Patrick's voice.
448
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,600
And is that, how good a thing is that?
449
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,880
Is there anything wrong with that?
450
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:24,960
Putting you on the spot.
451
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,160
Well, I would say that it's also like Una's voice
452
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,920
and Stella and Empress Trash.
453
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,920
I mean, is it ownership of one person?
454
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,920
No, and that's the whole point in general.
455
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,960
And like, I'm not saying, like when I said it,
456
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,240
like his voice was needed, I mean that.
457
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,480
And like in the face of misogyny,
458
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,440
that's not gonna listen to us.
459
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,320
But it's an amplification of all the other voices
460
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,920
that are there, which is, you know, like Wombat said,
461
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,920
it's like me, Stella, Una, Dania, like Wonder Mundo, Epic.
462
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,040
Like, there's hundreds more too.
463
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,600
It's just like impossible to list everyone out.
464
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,480
But like, we wanna get to, like the ideal is to get
465
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,240
to a point that a woman's voice is valued as much.
466
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,480
But the reality is, in some of the systems
467
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,840
that we work in, they're not.
468
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,840
And the action to pull out of a show, like he did,
469
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,520
like that action was the statement that resounded.
470
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,520
Like that action, like what do the auction houses care about?
471
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,040
They care about the money.
472
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,760
And it's like, if he's gonna pull his art out
473
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200
so they can't get the money, well, like,
474
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,640
they want that money and that's all they care.
475
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,600
Like, I mean, not everyone in the auction house
476
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,000
is like that, but I mean, fundamentally as an institution,
477
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,440
that's what they care about.
478
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,640
So, I don't know.
479
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,080
Like, and like one thing that's really frustrating with it
480
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,120
is like people are gonna perceive it all
481
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:16,960
however they perceive it.
482
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,280
And yes, he got applauded and, you know,
483
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,240
oh, good job, like, blah, blah, blah.
484
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,160
Like, this is what you do.
485
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,360
You stand up for women, which is like, that's great.
486
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:33,720
But then a lot of people, and the initial part of it
487
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,200
were ignoring the women completely.
488
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,600
Like, they were just like, Amidon did it.
489
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,080
And we had to make a concerted effort
490
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,360
to make sure that we weren't deplatformed in it.
491
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,720
And Amidon helped that too.
492
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,000
Did that include a direct message to Patrick
493
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,840
to remind him that he didn't do it by himself?
494
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,520
No, like he knew.
495
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,800
Like he knew.
496
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,840
He wasn't trying, like from the get-go, he wasn't trying.
497
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,640
Not to just, and I mean, he listens.
498
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,760
He listened, like he obviously listened enough
499
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,600
to pull out of the show.
500
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,000
Why would he stop listening once he pulled out of the show?
501
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,960
Like, that would be like probably the worst thing
502
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,480
he could do and then he would get the ire of us.
503
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,840
And then he becomes part of the problem.
504
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,080
So, like, he's listening.
505
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:25,960
He's still listening.
506
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,680
I mean, we're like, everyone's communicating now.
507
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,800
We weren't like communicating before
508
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,920
besides the chaos that came together.
509
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,760
But now we are communicating.
510
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,080
What's your feeling about the reaction
511
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,160
from the other male artists involved
512
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,960
in that particular auction and their response?
513
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,440
Their response, not a condemnation
514
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,560
or approval of them from before,
515
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,760
but their response and how they've handled it.
516
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,720
I am not trying to judge them
517
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,840
because I don't want this, like personally,
518
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,480
I'm working through things with it
519
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,360
because I don't want it to be a divisive point
520
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,960
because the glitch community always has been
521
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,000
somewhat tight-knit.
522
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,760
Not everyone in the show is like friends of mine,
523
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,400
and, you know, but everyone's like related to each other
524
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,800
and like friends with each other in some way.
525
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,800
And so I think baseline, my fundamental takeaway
526
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,720
after like a couple of days of processing
527
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,720
is some of them have probably never felt
528
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,120
the repercussions of their inaction before
529
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,680
and being complicit in the system,
530
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,160
and they've always benefited from it.
531
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,600
And now they are feeling the repercussions of it.
532
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240
Now they're not benefiting from it.
533
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,800
And I don't know if they have the coping mechanisms for that
534
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,360
because it's a new experience for them.
535
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,520
And so whatever happens, like I'm trying to take
536
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,480
that in consideration with how people are reacting
537
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,640
in general and not loading more emotions onto the situation,
538
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,000
if that makes any sense.
539
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,080
And I'm not trying to excuse any like shit behavior
540
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,440
that may have happened or can happen or whatever,
541
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,440
but it's more so like, I think about when I've experienced
542
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,080
since like something so profoundly out of my element,
543
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,320
how it's a testament to the person themselves,
544
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,960
like how they react to that.
545
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,040
And it's not on me, it's not on anyone else,
546
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,800
it's totally on them, but that's what accountability is
547
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,920
at the end of the day.
548
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,680
And so that's my takeaway.
549
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:51,960
Okay, here's another question.
550
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,160
And then I want Wombats response to both of these, okay?
551
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,440
The first one I just asked you,
552
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,840
I want Wombats respond to that.
553
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,200
But I also want to ask you, Emperors,
554
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,440
when it comes to the selection of this particular group,
555
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,800
and I think this speaks not just to debacle
556
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,160
that Sotheby's put themselves into curation here, right?
557
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,080
I'm talking about overall in this space,
558
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,720
how many of those artists were you surprised to learn
559
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,040
via their inclusion in the Sotheby's auction
560
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,440
that they're glitch artists?
561
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,800
I knew, because I stand at the intersection
562
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,000
of a lot of stuff, and I knew a lot of them
563
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,280
considered themselves glitch artists
564
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,520
or other people attributed glitch to them.
565
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,280
In my mind, they are illustrative glitch in a lot of ways,
566
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,560
which I wouldn't necessarily, it's still glitch in my mind,
567
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,280
but my, like the roots of glitch art are to me
568
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,800
in like analog glitch art,
569
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,880
and then morphing into digital glitch art.
570
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,960
And then morphing into the illustrative glitch art.
571
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,320
Like the illustrative glitch art that they do are doing,
572
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,000
I feel is like a fruit of a very huge tree
573
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,640
that's been growing since like the 1960s.
574
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,560
So, and glitch is a diverse genre in and of itself.
575
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,680
It's like EDM.
576
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,040
It's like, there's so many different types,
577
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,880
like you can break it down into so many subgenres.
578
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,880
But to only showcase the fruits and not,
579
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,200
and like, and try to exploit the tree and the roots,
580
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,080
like this is kind of what happens.
581
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,440
So that's it.
582
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,720
You know what I mean?
583
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:35,560
No, I do.
584
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880
I think that's a great response to that question.
585
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,880
And so how much of the response
586
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,520
and the quick action towards this could be derived
587
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,840
not only from the dismissal of ovaries
588
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,200
and their adjacent pieces,
589
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,520
but also to that same fruit aspect of that tree.
590
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,360
I mean, is a part of the response to this
591
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,160
come from any sort of division in the glitch community
592
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,000
to feel that?
593
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,560
I mean, was this a true pronged response
594
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,360
or is this strictly a response as it's been put forward
595
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:17,920
that it's about gender?
596
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,840
I think it's more of, I mean, within the glitch community,
597
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,400
I don't know, because some of the people
598
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,560
that were in the show were my friends, or are my friends,
599
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,040
not were, but are my friends.
600
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,560
And so, I mean, like I said,
601
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,400
like there's so many different aspects to it.
602
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,800
I fundamentally still just think it's a gender
603
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,440
and LGBTQ issue.
604
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,240
Like, because when you break down who is being,
605
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840
like who is the haves and who's the have-nots
606
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,240
within our community, kind of breaks down like that too.
607
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,160
And I also view it, like,
608
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,640
the biggest thing that I view with it
609
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,280
is that Sotheby's chose who they thought
610
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,080
they were gonna make money off of.
611
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,400
And all of these people have been pumped up a lot
612
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,400
within the crypto scene.
613
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,440
And that's fine, great, like let people make their bags.
614
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,120
But the whole thing that we've been saying,
615
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,800
like I've been saying for two years now,
616
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,600
is you can't just pump up a bunch of dudes
617
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,240
and then like when it comes around
618
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,560
that the art world comes in hot and heavy,
619
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,800
we're gonna be marginalized again,
620
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,880
as like women, LGBTQ, BIPOC people.
621
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,320
Like we're gonna be pushed aside
622
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,560
because the truth, like when the auction houses come in,
623
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,200
they just are gonna look at the numbers
624
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,480
and we're not gonna be in the top 100 artists.
625
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,480
And I do view it as a failing on the crypto art market too.
626
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,160
Like while stood beside us and a lot of people, you know,
627
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
backed us up, there is also a fundamental failing
628
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,480
in the market because it's not just like this one instance.
629
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,400
This is years of building something
630
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,760
that was inequitable again,
631
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,320
but like hyper inflating it, you know?
632
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,440
And we're saying no, like we're saying,
633
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,880
if we're gonna be building like blockchain and Web3
634
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,280
in the future of the art market, we're saying no to that.
635
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,120
We're saying no more to this inequity.
636
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,840
We're saying like, you need to like balance this out.
637
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,880
It's like art is all speculation anyway.
638
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
It's like, why don't you speculate that the women,
639
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,480
women's work is gonna be valuable in the future?
640
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,920
Like, are you planning on just like making all women
641
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,200
like obliterated from culture in the future?
642
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,000
Like, why aren't you speculating that?
643
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,360
That's always what I think.
644
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,600
And if you actually look at the data,
645
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,640
like women's artwork has been raising in value
646
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,600
in the traditional art market slowly, but surely.
647
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,600
And if you're gonna be buying things based off of just money
648
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,200
and chasing money, like why wouldn't you buy the things
649
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,040
that probably are gonna have a really good return
650
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,560
on investment because they're being undervalued
651
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,320
at this point, like extremely undervalued.
652
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,080
And if women analogy being undervalued,
653
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,080
like buy it and start valuing it.
654
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Well, I wanna hear, no, no, listen, this is actually,
655
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,120
there's a great moment for me to throw a wombat
656
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,120
in the next year because from, I think that that sense
657
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,400
of undervalue, speaking to the idea that truly,
658
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,640
everything we're even talking about,
659
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,960
the fact that we're talking about Sotheby's,
660
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,920
the type of talking about any of this,
661
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,320
is because we're in a very speculative market.
662
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,440
That's what this is all about.
663
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,640
We're wrestling over the dollars that are being spent
664
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,160
in a speculative fashion, almost predominantly.
665
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,160
And so for me, the idea, look, not to toot my own horn here,
666
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,920
but I, as an investor, find many of my favorite artists
667
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,960
that I collect from a speculative sense
668
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,200
to be so wildly undervalued.
669
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,240
Okay, and wombat being one of them here,
670
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,400
that I'm all on, I'm all on board with what you just said,
671
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:27,320
in that regard, like from the speculative side.
672
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,080
And so wombat, walk me through, if you can,
673
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,600
how you've lived your life
674
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,640
from a curatorial affectation, right?
675
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,240
Like how this has come at you in what you've seen
676
00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:46,240
in the curatorial process for the last 10 or 15 years,
677
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,200
and how that's playing out now,
678
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,880
because you're sort of in that same realm, I think,
679
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,880
where you're very often dismissed in the curation process
680
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,880
because of not coming up with the sort of sales volumes
681
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,120
against some of your peers, the male peers, right?
682
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,200
Where do we stand on that as you come into it now?
683
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,720
Is there change on the horizon?
684
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:12,000
Is this the sort of thing
685
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,960
that puts you in a better mood going forward,
686
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,080
or is this an uphill battle for you?
687
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,440
You mean, is this the thing as in the stuff of these,
688
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,120
like recent event?
689
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,680
Well, yeah, I mean, is this,
690
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,360
when you look at this week, right?
691
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,600
You look at this past seven days or whatever,
692
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,120
is that, does it just dredge up again,
693
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,960
your things that the curatorial process has left out,
694
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,720
or is it, or are you feeling that there's a breakdown
695
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,360
coming, I mean, what's gonna happen here?
696
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,560
This is a rough question,
697
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,520
but I'd love to hear your take on it.
698
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,400
I think that, I think it's good news.
699
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,320
I don't think it's like groundbreaking
700
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,600
and it's the end all be all,
701
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,440
but the more we see these little earthquakes happen,
702
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,840
the more it shows change.
703
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,080
It's funny too, because when you asked me the question,
704
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,680
like about like my, when you ask about my long history,
705
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,200
it gets so convoluted less with gender issues for me,
706
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,400
and more with like the fact that I made digital art at all,
707
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,680
and that was what was not included in everything.
708
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,920
So like at this point, it's like hard for me to parcel out
709
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,600
when you go back far enough,
710
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560
what type of discrimination, you know,
711
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,680
I might've been under.
712
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,680
Yeah, it gets confusing.
713
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,680
Well, walk us through any of those discriminations
714
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,800
and how they're playing out today.
715
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,800
And I mean, do you see yourself making more headway
716
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:43,640
at this point?
717
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Are we at a point where via the crypto art movement
718
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,920
that you're moving at a quicker pace
719
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,520
towards breaking free of some of those discriminations?
720
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,520
Oh yeah, I absolutely believe that.
721
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,520
It's just, it takes repetition of surviving in the space,
722
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,160
you know, and then exponential growth, like with your art.
723
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,560
This has been a big shakeout in the past year,
724
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,160
and it's really, it's highlighting the remaining people.
725
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,800
I think that that's a huge function in all this too.
726
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,160
You're saying it's saying a shakeout
727
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,160
in the crypto art market, and who's surviving there?
728
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,320
Is that what you're talking about?
729
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,320
It shows who's serious, like, it really sucks to,
730
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,280
Infer's trash, I'm so glad that you threw out
731
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,160
all those statistics earlier that you did about employment.
732
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,040
And you know, basically like women have only been formally
733
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,560
kind of sometimes employed for like a hundred years
734
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,960
and all of that, it's all very relevant.
735
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,240
And I would have probably gotten around to it
736
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:47,760
if you didn't do it.
737
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,160
But like, the truth is, is like,
738
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,600
I guess there's been a history where people have thought
739
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,640
like women are gonna have, be forced childbearing
740
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,880
and have no resources left to do anything else
741
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,720
with their life.
742
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,320
And it's just like, nothing is like that modern day.
743
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,320
You know, it's like an old habit to get rid of, you know?
744
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,360
So it's just so clearly out of date at this point
745
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,000
that I think any of these little earthquakes
746
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,360
like I was saying, that like signify that
747
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,800
and reiterate that are good.
748
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,800
There's no doubt.
749
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,760
I have been the one who's used to being the guy
750
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,960
everybody wants to talk to in the room when I go to LA
751
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:26,800
that would want that.
752
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,000
I'm just very, the power balance shifts
753
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,320
to say the goddamn least.
754
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,840
But because you both knew Patrick,
755
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,840
and you both know him in that LA sense, okay?
756
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,720
Am I supposed to forgive him for not coming on last week
757
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:46,920
because he's doing the right thing?
758
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,360
Is that what I'm hearing here?
759
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,720
I want an answer from both of you.
760
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:52,080
This is a question.
761
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Am I supposed to forgive Patrick?
762
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,040
I think, I mean, you have to find that forgiveness
763
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,080
in yourself.
764
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:04,640
I don't think.
765
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:07,080
I will say this.
766
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:10,520
Well, first of all, Juan, man, I want an answer.
767
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,360
Am I supposed to forgive, is Patrick,
768
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,880
is he doing the right thing?
769
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Here's what you do.
770
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,600
You get him to come on here at a later date
771
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,880
because I still want to hear this conversation
772
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:20,920
between the two of you.
773
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,240
Whatever it ends up being, it's going to be gold.
774
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:24,080
Please.
775
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,640
Well, right now I'm left on unread.
776
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,520
So I don't know how that's going to go.
777
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,200
Look, I will say this.
778
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,520
I think Patrick, by dropping out of that show
779
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,240
and by stepping away from it
780
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:46,640
and telling people he was doing that,
781
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,520
I think at the very least,
782
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,680
and I agree with everything you said, Empress Trash.
783
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,160
I think, you know, I do, it's an important thing.
784
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,200
I'm glad it happened.
785
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,360
Very glad it happened.
786
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,000
But I think at the very least,
787
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,560
he's going to come out of it
788
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,480
having dodged the plan for this week's episode,
789
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
which was going to be my absolute assassination
790
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,280
of Patrick Amidaw.
791
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,120
And now-
792
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,680
You think it was all him just trying to cover up.
793
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,320
I'm not going to go as far as to say,
794
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,800
but perhaps Patrick was running interference
795
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,800
against my wrath.
796
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,360
And as such, I saved all of the,
797
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,520
I'm the one, I'm the catalyst.
798
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,840
Can we just please recognize the three stepped up
799
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,440
and brought Sotheby's to his knees?
800
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,960
That's some fucking chest maneuvering for sure.
801
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,160
I'm just saying, can we please recognize game
802
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,240
where we have to go?
803
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,000
All right, I think that's a yes.
804
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,240
So I feel better.
805
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:54,640
I did pick the right two ladies
806
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,520
to have my first podcast threesome.
807
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,840
Do appreciate you guys there.
808
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:02,960
So thank you.
809
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,600
But no, seriously, it means a lot.
810
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,400
I hit Empress up late this afternoon
811
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,440
and she's doing this on a whim,
812
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,280
one that only said she would come on
813
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,760
if I can get Empress trash on.
814
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,040
So I appreciate both of you.
815
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Like I said, anytime.
816
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:23,320
Yeah, anytime.
817
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,440
It's good to have these little conversations.
818
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,920
And this is a big conversation.
819
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Which I'm, you know, look at this light.
820
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,480
Look at my, look how pretty I look.
821
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,320
You're glowing. Beautiful, golden.
822
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,480
The podcast people can't see it,
823
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,680
but you're glowing right now.
824
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:37,680
I can kind of, this is,
825
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,960
I'm looking out of Manhattan across there.
826
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,760
I've got the sun, wow, amazing.
827
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,480
Okay guys, we'll let Kitch go
828
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,680
so you can go produce my other podcast.
829
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,080
I love all three of you.
830
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,640
Kitch, you're the best in the business.
831
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,160
Empress trash, you're fucking gold.
832
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,320
And Wombat, thank you for everything.
833
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,680
See everybody next week.
834
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Thank you guys.
835
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,440
Thank you too.
836
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:16,440
Ciao.
