#251 - Context Context Context (Vocals Pt2)

WEBVTT
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What I'm going to say is, like number one, there's
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no objective right or wrong about you know, if the
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reverb is right or not. But number two, there's one exception,
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and it is that you are wrong and you're an
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idiot and I hate you.
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Wow. Hi, I'm Ben and I'm Carl, and you're listening
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to Secret Sonics, Honest conversations chock full of tactical advice
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to help you build your dream career in music and audio.
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Whether it's skill development, mixing mindsets, personal branding, or work
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life balance. We talk about ways to help set yourself
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up for success in the ever changing music industry.
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Let's get started. Hi, Ben, Hi Carl.
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How are you doing?
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I am doing pretty good man. How are you?
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I'm good.
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I feel like we're both in a much better mood
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today than we were yes last time.
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This has been a better week for me than last week.
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That's that's good.
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Yeah, it was not the least stressful attempt at recording
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a podcast last week.
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Well, to put it lightly, we'll just we'll just leave
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it at that.
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We'll leave it there, yeah, put it mildly.
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Yeah, But we survived that episode and now we are
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here with a renewed sense of energy and excitement and
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nerdy deep dive venus.
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If you're in the mood for some nerdy deep diving nous,
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you're in the right place because we got you covered.
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Yeah.
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So, last time we deep divness into vocal production and
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we kind of started getting a little bit into some
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mixing things, like I know I was going off on
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my ds or rant, but we were still talking about
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it in solo, Like we were kind of talking about,
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you know, processing the vocals and the things that we're
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trying to do with it, but we didn't get into
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the grander context of how do we make the decisions
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to get the vocals to sound great in the actual
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context of the song, and how do we make not
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just what plugins do we choose and what are we
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doing like technique wise, but what are the questions we're
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asking ourselves about the grander all of the different characters
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in the song, all all the characters in the story.
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How do we decide what to do with the vocals,
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why we're doing it, and then.
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How to achieve that.
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So I want to kick it off by pointing at
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you across the ocean, saying, Ben, my first question for
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you if at all. How do you approach mixing lead
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vocals versus backing vocals. Do you have a preference, like
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a kind of a go to approach to that?
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Hmm, well, I would definitely say that lead vocal. There's
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a lot more thought behind anything happening in a lead
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vocal than in a backing vocal. Not to say that
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there isn't thought in a backing vocal, but I don't
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think I've ever started with backing vocals first. You know,
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I might do the lead vocal right after doing the
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drum and the bass, but I'm not doing backing vocals
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before we started the lead vocals. Yeah, there's definitely a
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difference in the approach, and I definitely am trying to
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get a lead vocal to be more present, almost always
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unless for some reason you want to muffle voice or something,
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but like you want the voice to be upfront heard,
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you know, loud and and hopefully shining. Whereas the backing vocals,
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the thought process is more about supporting the lead vocal
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and finding its place in the mix, you know, in
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terms of like balance and stuff. You know, they might
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have different effects, they might have similar effects, but just
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like one has a slightly kind of like a different
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kind of eq thing going on, or maybe there's like
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more reverb than the lead vocal because you want it
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to sound like it's further back, or who knows. I mean,
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this is like a very broad question. It's very difficult
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to kind of give you what I usually do with this,
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But yeah, lead vocal is definitely front and center of
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every mix, and the mix won't ship until I'm really
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happy with the vocal. So like, if I'm listening back
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and the s's are not the way I want them,
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I'm going to go back in and fix that before
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we you know, obviously. Yeah, but lead vocals. I love
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mixing lead vocals, and I think that's one of the
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things that people like about my mixes When like random
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people will give me feedback about my mixes, like, oh,
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the vocals just shining. I could tell that, like, You've
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put a lot of work into it, and I do.
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I'm all about really sculpting lead vocal to get exactly
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what I want out of it, and you know, I'll
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hear it and I'll know where I want to go.
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Kind of thing. That's just years of mixing and equing
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vocals and compressing vocals and knowing sometimes I get down
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to like a really nitty gritty like level of like
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if I boost a little bit more top end, it
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sounds a little less muddy. But choosing the right EQ
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to do it, and like just like getting that perfect tone.
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I try not to like compromise on the vocal sound.
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Like you know, people compromise other instruments so that everything
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has its place right, you don't want masking and stuff.
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But with the lead vocal, I don't really want compromises.
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I want it to sound as beautiful and lush and
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upfront as possible. So that's not to say it will
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be above the mix because I don't think my vocals
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are too loud. I think they they sit in the
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mix nicely. And that also has to do with the
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separation of the low end and the top end and
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you know the mids.
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Right and the style of music that you're doing too,
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like it'.
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And the style of music vocal Yeah, I like it.
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I'm not into that. Yeah, I don't. That doesn't happen
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very much in the music I'm mixing. Like the vocals
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just like way too loud. That's that's not very common. Yeah,
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But I would say that, like because there's like the
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lead vocal is mostly mid range and top end, it's everything,
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but it doesn't have a lot of low end, so
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there's always the low end to kind of fill out things.
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So for me, that's like the secret of getting a
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vocal in the mix sitting nice. I mean, I don't
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know if I think about it so much when I'm
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actually mixing, but like the vocal will sound really loud,
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but it won't dominate the mix if there's enough low
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end stuff happening. So it's just kind of it's like
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a puzzle. I don't know. I feel like I'm blabbering
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now I should keep going when the lead vocal or
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do you want to kind of differentiate between the lead
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vocal and the backing vocals, Well, I was gonna.
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Say I can't separate them, huh, because Carl I always
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coming out of left field here, But like, I love
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it every time you say something and it makes me
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think a little differently and it improves my workflow.
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So oh, like yeah, totally.
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So here's here's my thought on it.
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It's that if the backing vocals are always going to
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be intended to support, well, they're not always intended to
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support because there are going to be sometimes where the
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backing vocal is meant to be supporting texture and like
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extra body to it, and they're gonna be sometimes where
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it's meant to be like feel like an explosion, because
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there are sometimes where you want the like the harmonies
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and the backing vocals and the doubles to be tucked
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away and maybe like you're kind of softening the top end,
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you're softening the transience you're getting, you know, really being
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more cautious with the essays because like even have them
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maybe tucked in a little bit because you don't want
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them to distract from the lead vocal. You just want
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them to be felt that other times you want it
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to feel like a Muse song or Queen, where it's
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just like in your face, like the whole, like every
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part of the spectrum is just like this big wall
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of vocals. So to me, I can't really separate it
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because I feel like everything I do with the backing
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vocals has to be following and like filling the right
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role that it needs to in that moment of the song.
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But to be able to do that, I need to
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always know what the lead vocal is doing, and I
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need to make sure that they're working together to create
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that that because without backing vocals, there is no lead
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you know what I mean, if you want to think
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of it, kind of me it's a little bit a
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little a little bit heady to think about, but.
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Right, I mean, yeah, there could be just a vocalist.
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Yeah, yeah, So like what I try to think of
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it's like, okay, well what do I need to do
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in this moment?
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And if I want the backing.
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Vocals to be a support, that's going to also change
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maybe what I do to the lead vocal because usually
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not going to need as much effects on it, like
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as many like you know, reverbs and delays and things.
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If that extra texture and support is coming from backing vocals,
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but if there's not a lot of backing vocals, maybe
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I do need to, you know, get some of that
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texture and movement and that little like you know, modulation
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variation kind of textural stuff. Maybe I do need to
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get that from the way that I process the lead.
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So in a way, like the more prominent the backing
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vocals are meant to be in that part of the song,
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the less I need to do to the lead vocal,
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because then it's just going to be adding a ton
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of you know, like mud, and not just like eq
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mud in you know, in the AQ sense, but just
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like stuff that is happening, the reverb tales, the delays
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that are just kind of tripping over the backing vocals
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that all of a sudden, now it's kind of I'm
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taking up too much space with not the lead vocal itself,
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but the effects that the lead vocal has added on
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to it.
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Yeah, that's a really interesting thought, and I would say
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I just kind of do things inversely, you know. I
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would probably just make sure that the lead vocal is
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is super splendid, and then I'll add in the backing
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vocals and see what that does to it. And then
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if it is too messy, then I will dip things out.
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Maybe I'll scale back some of those reverbs, or maybe
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I won't put any reverb on the backing vocal because
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it's just like textural, you know what I mean. Like
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it's kind of like chasing your tail, you know what
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I mean. You could go either way, and then you're
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gonna just like mess around until it suits your you
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know what you're listening for kind of thing. And there
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are definitely tracks where it's a you know, a big
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eshtalt of vocals, and you know that's like a big
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part of the sound, in which case, like I might
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do harmonies at a similar time to the lead vocal,
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you know what I mean, And I might like do
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a lot of tweaks in tandem with just maybe just
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soloing lead vocals and the harmonies. And you're not supposed
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to solo anything while you mix, but but sometimes you
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do that. Do you solo your lead vocals when you're
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mixing them?
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Yes, but less when I'm actually making mixing decisions, And
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like it's more of what I'm fixing problems. It's more
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what I'm like searching for an issue, like I hear
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there's something weird happening, like there's some sort of frequency
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build up in the reverb, like especially especially if there
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are Let's say that I get a track and it
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has like a double and a triple in the chorus,
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like it's meant to be like a big thick but
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they're all sung in unison. And maybe the person that
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the producer that said it to me maybe went a
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little more aggressive and tight with the tuning that I
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would have probably preferred in this situation. I like having
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my like doubles and triples like a little bit looser,
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because what happens if they're all too close then you
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have three different vocal tracks all hitting the same like
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really narrow frequency window, all at the same time. And
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then if that note is also being played by a
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synth or a guitar or piano or something, that it's
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like you get these spikes in that little particular frequency range,
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and you know, like the the less tight the vocal is,
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the wider that is, and therefore like it's more of
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a hill and less of a mountain peak, if that
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makes sense. So it's usually when I'm soloing a vocal
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in the mix. It's usually because like I'm hearing something
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weird and I'm trying to figure out, well, which which
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of the vocals is like adding to that problem, and
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then how can I isolate it, you know, rather than
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making character building sonic decisions on it. It's usually when
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I'm like in detective mode trying to figure out what's
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making that thing happen that I don't.
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Like, Yeah, what's your thought process in terms of like
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balancing a lead vocal? Is there any thought to it?
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Do you like your vocals loud? Yeah, what's going on
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in your brain when you're like just thrown up the
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vocal and you're playing it against the rest of the track.
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I generally like it on the louder side, but I
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like texture and the instrumental elements too much to just
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go like full on. Like I generally am not want
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to have the vocals be like right here up in
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your face. And if you're listening to this and you're
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not watching it, I just imagine me putting my hand
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half an inch away from your eyeballs, because that's how
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some like vocal mixes feel.
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I feel very uncomfortable, right, Yeah, there's good, good, that's
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that's the goal.
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You haven't said that to me in a couple of weeks,
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and I feel like I've been.
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You've been playing it too safe, too safe.
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And there's something against those kind of vocals when the
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style calls for it. I just am usually working on
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stuff that is a little bit left of censer, so like,
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I want the vocals to be prominent and heard, but
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not at the there's like some artists in pop or
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like the vocal is the only thing that they really
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care about, and that's cool, that's I guess that's their thing.
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That's usually not the kind of artists that I'm working with,
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where they do really like all of the instrumental textures
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and things. So it's fighting that balance of keeping the
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vocals pop enough, you know, on top enough, without it
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feeling like it's just kind of aggressively placed in front
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of everything else. So one of the things that I
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do that enables to do that to keep the volume
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of the vocals feeling loud without it actually being loud,
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and without it pushing down all the instrumentals every time
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that it hits the limitter. I'm just very cautious and
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thoughtful about what's happening in the top end of all
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of the other tracks. So, I know we talked about this,
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I think it probably a couple of months ago, but
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how you know, everybody talks about, oh, yeah, you want
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to you know, remove the subrequencies of instruments that you
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don't need, Like there's no need for thirty herts in
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a high hat track. Generally speaking, there's no need for
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you know, thirty herts in a flute part if it's
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like in the background or whatever orhereverever. Yeah, but I
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mean it could be it's like a contra based flute,
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you know, like I don't want to make or cat stroll.
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One out of two million tracks has thirty hertz in
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the flute, you know, yeah, mattering.
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Maybe Actually that's probably an overestimation of how frequently that
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would be. But I look at the top end the
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same way, like, there are a lot of instruments that
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don't need you know, fifteen K. They just don't, like
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a lot of guitars especially, and the stuff that I'm doing,
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I a lot of times will have a low pass
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filter when the guitars that there's rarely anything above like
296
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seven or eight K, just because we don't need it.
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And you're talking about electric guitars, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
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cool acoustic guitar is usually a little bit higher. But
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even then there's usually some stuff that's like at the
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very very top that is just string noise and like
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squeakze and like hiss that are not actually musical.
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And I think that's it.
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It's just it's not getting rid of high frequencies because
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you're supposed to get rid of high frequencies. It's just
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like getting rid of the non musical consequences of it
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being an instrument, so whether it's in the bottom end.
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Last week we talked about the like sub frequencies in
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a high hat part, like in a live high hat,
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and it's not because that's what the symbol sounds like.
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It's because it's the physical manifestation of you hitting the
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high hats with the stick. That physical vibration is traveling
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through the stand down to the floor, up the microphone
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stand and shaking the microphone capsule at you know, twenty
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hrtz or whatever like that is not musical. So I'm
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getting rid of it. And I think there's a lot
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of things in synth parts, in loops, especially when you
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get any kind of like drum loops or drum samples
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that are just so overhyped. There's a lot of information
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that is just not actually musically necessary. So rather than
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having to push the volume up on the lead vocals
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or adding a bunch of top pend on the lead vocals,
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if I'm just cautious about what's going on in the
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top end of everything else, I'm able to just kind
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of carve out that space kind of like you were saying,
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in the bottom end, you know, carving out although that
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unnecessary low end of the vocal and having the instrumental
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kind of fill that out. This is the inverse on
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the top end where I'm carving out that unnecessary, unmusical
329
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stuff out of the instrumental, so that all of that
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air and the clarity of the lead vocal is what
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is shining. And that's why, you know, going back to
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the backing vocals and the decisions that I make in
333
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the backing vocals based on what the lead's doing and
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what the backing vocals are supposed to be doing underneath it.
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It's a question of I ask this kind of like
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section bisection, but like in this moment at least, are
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these backing vocals are they meant to be felt or heard?
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You know?
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And if they're meant to be felt, I'm probably going
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to also do a low pass on the backing vocals
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because I don't necessarily want a bunch of air. I
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don't want really prominent s's. I'm probably going to use
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something like I usually use the even tight omnipressor on
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my backing vocal buses because it has like an upward
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compressor as well. But what I've found is that if
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I adjust the attack time to be as short as possible,
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it really doesn't let the transience come through, like it
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really does a great job of just cutting them off.
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So what I'll do is, I'll either have it as
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short as I can when I don't want transcends to
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come through and I want it to feel a little
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bit softened as far as the punch goes. But then
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if I want them to be more more prominent and
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I want them to be like more heard, I won't
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do the low pass filter. I'll probably adjust the attack
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time to like ten milliseconds or something, just so like
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exaggerate the entrances and exaggerate the transients of those backing
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vocals so that way they actually poke through just a
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little bit more. I might make it for that section,
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I might make the vocals you know, all the way wide,
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But if I want it to be felt not heard,
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I might only make them like halfway out to the side.
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So it's not just a volume thing of like how
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loud should they be relative to the lead vocal. It's like, well,
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thinking of it three dimensionally, how loud should it be,
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how deep should it be? How high you know, like
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frequency raine should it go? How wide should it be?
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How punchy should it be? I've found like just having
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reverb on it doesn't always do the trick, you know
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what I mean, Like, yeah, you're adding reverb, you're adding space,
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but you're not actually removing the things that are potentially
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causing the distractions in the first place, like the transients
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and the essays and the air and the breaths and
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like the entrances.
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00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.680
Yeah, that's great. I love that that compressor trick. And yeah,
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I definitely I would say maybe I lean a little
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more on EQ than on compression in terms of getting
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a vocal to sort of fit where I want it
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to be, but you know, obviously also using compression. Yeah,
380
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.799
Also I totally relate to what you're talking about, like
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the width of the vocal. Like my panning for vocals
382
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.039
are all over the place, and they're very often all
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the way wide, and they're very often really tight and
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in the middle, and it sort of just really depends
385
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what you want to get out of the vocal. And like,
386
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.000
if you want wide, lush, big vocals like bo Human Rhapsody,
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00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.319
they're probably wide, wide panned, and I'll go all the
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way left and right and do stuff like that. And
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00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:58.400
if it's something that just wants to you know, it's
390
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more of a texture, it's just underneath that supporting it.
391
00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:03.039
Then it might be like you know, you know, like
392
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ten to the side or something, you know, like with
393
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.319
like the logic panner. Yeah, so it totally totally depends.
394
00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:10.759
So that's where I want to poke you a bit
395
00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.720
and like, yes, I agree, it all depends. But instead
396
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of us just saying like, well, it depends, you know, there's.
397
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.440
Well I'm saying that you're you're being very coherent, and
398
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:19.519
I'm just saying it depends.
399
00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:21.319
I was trying not to throw you under the bus.
400
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.279
Ben, you just throw me under the stereo bus. But
401
00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.400
I'd rather be I'd rather be thrown under the vocal
402
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:29.759
box bus. You know that.
403
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:29.960
That?
404
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:31.400
Yeah, that was hurt.
405
00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:43.079
That hurt, unforgivable, pun, unforgivable. I'm sorry everybody, You get
406
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:43.720
your money back.
407
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.240
It's just free content. We don't know anything to anybody.
408
00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:50.839
They can enjoy this and take what they want for
409
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:52.799
this episode and they have to just deal with a
410
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:54.599
few terrible puns.
411
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:56.359
Them a couple of IQ points at least.
412
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:58.519
But anyway, I want to poke you a bit further
413
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and say, like, so, what are some situation like you know,
414
00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.720
sometimes it's wide, sometimes it's snarrow so like, and there's
415
00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:06.480
sometimes just louder or somethings a softer so like.
416
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.119
What are some examples of, you.
417
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.119
Know, moments and an arrangement where you would want to
418
00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:14.599
like push them wider verse.
419
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.359
That's exactly what I was thinking about as you were
420
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:20.119
framing this question. Usually first verse, there's probably not gonna
421
00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.880
be any harmonies. First course, there might be a harmony,
422
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.000
and it usually grows as a song goes along. So
423
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.759
I would say nine times out of ten there's harmonies
424
00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:31.960
in the second verse, in which case it might just
425
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.319
be one harmony, right, And then if it's like one
426
00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:36.960
little harmony that's just supporting the lead vocal and you're
427
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.319
changing the song up and you're taking the listener on
428
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.880
a journey, that's usually the kind of thing where it's
429
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:43.519
just like one vocal, put it a little bit to
430
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.119
the side, tuck it in, find the right balance, find
431
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.720
the right like amount of punch or you know, presence
432
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.440
versus the lead vocal. As you're saying, that's usually pretty simple.
433
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.599
But then as the song develops, usually redoubling harmonies, and
434
00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.000
we might have like two harmonies that are each double,
435
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:02.119
you know, that would be pretty typical for a song
436
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.680
I'm working on a third above a fifth blow or
437
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.119
something I don't know, and then you know, those could
438
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.440
all be panned full out and then and then we're
439
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.200
in like Bohemian rhapsody land, you know, and we're making
440
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.839
those harmonies sound really loud and proud, you know, compared
441
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.519
to the lead vocal. And so it just kind of
442
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:19.680
you know, as you build the song and you build that,
443
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.160
you build the momentum, you want to maybe add more
444
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.279
panning to your palette and that can build excitement and
445
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.160
make the final chorus you know, super strong and powerful.
446
00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:29.440
Yeah.
447
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:31.400
Good, I'm glad you said that, because that's that's what
448
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.359
I wanted to kind of get into as well. Where
449
00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:39.880
it's the acknowledgement that the right processing, the right balance,
450
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.519
the right contextual choices that you make for a vocal
451
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.599
is going to change from moment to moment in the song.
452
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.079
Yeah, and even doubled like lead vocals or you know,
453
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:50.920
a lead vocal might get doubled in like the first chorus,
454
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.039
and then it might get tripled in the third chorus,
455
00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:56.240
you know, and so like those things also change, and
456
00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.920
then the panning will depend also, like that could change
457
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.720
panning all together, Like I could double a lead vocal
458
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.880
that's like smack in the middle, or I could pan
459
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:06.759
them out a little bit or all the way. So
460
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:08.440
it just depends on the on the track what it's
461
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.000
a calling for. And that's just experience and knowing what
462
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:16.319
you like. But all these things are tools that our disposal. Yeah,
463
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.839
that's what about you, Carl, with like the you know,
464
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.559
the evolution of the vocal over time and the story.
465
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:24.680
You know, I'm constantly going from like section to section
466
00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.480
as asking myself, like what needs to happen here? Yes,
467
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.480
I think that's why I try to start with the
468
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.519
second chorus or the third chorus, kind of depending on
469
00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.839
how long the song is. And again I'm working primarily
470
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:39.960
in like pop adjacent styles, so choruses are important generally speaking,
471
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.079
and I usually start towards the end where it's like
472
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:47.519
the maybe like the most exciting part of the song,
473
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.680
like the highest energy part of the song, and specifically
474
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:55.000
the part that has the most vocals. And usually what
475
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:56.559
I like to do is I like to start there
476
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.160
when I'm getting the balances, because if I can get
477
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.759
that to feel really good and really big, then I
478
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.039
know what I'm aiming for throughout the rest of the song,
479
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.519
So then when I go I kind of work myself backwards.
480
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:09.920
I can make the adjustments to make sure that the
481
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.480
things that I'm doing in the third like in the bridge,
482
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.440
are creating the tension to lead up to that chorus.
483
00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.960
The things that I'm doing at the end of the
484
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.400
second chorus in the beginning of the bridge like that
485
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.519
they're creating some contrast and some tension and momentum.
486
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.680
And then like going back to.
487
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:28.559
The second verse and like, how do I always make
488
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.839
sure that I'm kind of like growing and like interesting
489
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.480
ways that keeps the listener excited. So if I and
490
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.359
also like generally speaking, in a lot of the stuff
491
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.319
that I work on, by the time you get to
492
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.319
that last chorus, it's kind of like the everything including
493
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.119
the kitchen sink has been throwed at that section, so
494
00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:49.119
I kind of know, all right, like I know what
495
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:51.880
the important parts are going to be. I can make
496
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.519
sure that I'm prioritizing the parts that are happening more
497
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.440
often in the song, like if there is like obviously
498
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.200
like the base, the kick, drump, like the things that
499
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.079
are going to be more more present, And then that
500
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.599
helps me to from an overall mixed standpoint, figure out, well,
501
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:07.559
what are the little textures that are coming in just
502
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:10.880
in that last section. But then from like a vocal standpoint,
503
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.599
I can kind of see where I'm headed so that
504
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.839
I don't get too exciting too fast early in the beginning.
505
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.000
So that enables me to make some choices where maybe
506
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:26.359
I am gradually sneakily stepping up the backing vocals throughout
507
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.039
the song. Maybe they're getting a little bit brighter throughout
508
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.200
the song, maybe they're getting a little you know, depending
509
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.759
on what I'm going for. But it's maybe just maybe
510
00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.480
I want them to be more prominent in the choruses
511
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.880
and less prominent in the verses. Maybe I want them
512
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.240
to be not really prominent at all until the bridge,
513
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:45.880
and then when the bridge comes in, it's just like
514
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:50.240
that's the big wall of vocal moment. But I always
515
00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.000
have to ask myself, like, what do the vocals need
516
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.240
to be doing in this moment? And that's that's the
517
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.599
question I ask myself about Eddie instrument. It's like, what
518
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:01.720
in this moment, in this scene of the play, who
519
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:05.359
is the lead, where should the spotlight be? Who should
520
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.720
be adding interest in the background, but not getting in
521
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.200
the way and not being distracting. And it's like the
522
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.440
scenes change, it's not. You don't go to see a
523
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:16.680
play and everybody sits at the exact same place with
524
00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:20.920
the exact same prominence. That would be the most boring
525
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.559
thing to watch ever. And I treat mixing in the
526
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:26.960
same way, whether it's the backing vocals or the lead
527
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:30.240
vocals or any of the instruments. It's always figuring out
528
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.640
what can I do to the rest of the song
529
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.559
to make the vocals stay prominent when I want them
530
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:38.799
to be prominent, And then what can I do to
531
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.480
the rest of the song and to the vocals when
532
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.839
I want them to sit back and be part of
533
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:49.519
the ensemble, yeah, rather than taking a lead amazing. One
534
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:51.359
of the things I've noticed over the past twenty years
535
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:54.359
being in the industry is that audio school usually leaves
536
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:58.359
most graduates completely unprepared for entering the industry. I mean, sure,
537
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:00.599
you learn how to rewire a patch, bait sleep, but
538
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:02.880
they probably won't teach you how to stand out and
539
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.119
attract the kinds of artists that fuel your passion for recording,
540
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.000
appreciate what you bring to the table, let alone pay
541
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:11.640
their rates you want to get paid, and YouTube university
542
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:13.640
is full of people telling you that their way is
543
00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:15.759
the right way, and it doesn't help you apply things
544
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.839
to your unique struggles, personality and ideal clients. So I've
545
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.480
been building studio land to fill those gaps. We use
546
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.559
structured learning paths, weekly live classes in a private community
547
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.839
of other pros to help you discover how to turn
548
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:31.079
your technical expertise into a thriving business that attracts the
549
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.839
right clients at the right rates. Try it out for
550
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.160
free the links in the show notes.
551
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.200
Do we want to talk about, like what kind of
552
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:42.079
like effects we do to vocals to help them sit
553
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.160
in the mix, Like maybe like things that we're thinking
554
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.000
about in terms of like getting a vocal to really
555
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:49.680
be a part of the environment it's in.
556
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:50.720
Yeah.
557
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.960
Yeah, I mean I think unsurprisingly, I'm probably going to
558
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.440
say something that you're going to have to have me
559
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:58.200
explain because it makes sense in my head. But when
560
00:25:58.200 --> 00:25:59.640
I first say it, you're gonna be like, what the hell?
561
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:00.119
You know?
562
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.279
If I want the vocals to stay in the front,
563
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.400
I usually don't make any changes to them, and I'm
564
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:09.720
just making changes to the instrumental and specifically I like
565
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.720
to do a lot of I do a lot of
566
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.319
side chaining in my mixes, and a lot of utility
567
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.119
side chaining that is doing very subtle things, but it's
568
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:22.240
just to help retain the pecking order of the different layers.
569
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.839
So I think when I talk to mixing engineers and
570
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:27.440
I say that I use a lot of side chaining,
571
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.680
they just kind of assume I'm talking about like deft
572
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.920
punk or some sort of like really heavily aggressive. Oh,
573
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.000
when the kick hits, everything else gets silent for a
574
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.079
split second, And that's not really what I'm doing.
575
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:40.359
I think.
576
00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:44.720
For the vocals specifically, I really like using pro mb
577
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.759
so it's like a multi band compressor, but I side
578
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:50.640
chain it to the vocals, and I have that on
579
00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:54.759
all of my other primary buses, like before it goes
580
00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:01.160
to my mix bus, I have vocals, drums, basses, instruments,
581
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.680
and all the effects, all the different effects sense to
582
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.160
go there, and I have it on all four of
583
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.599
those other ones where I have it that you know,
584
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:13.839
when the vocal is really digging into that, you know
585
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.759
that range from like two to five K it's ducking
586
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.200
everything else just a little bit. Like I think at
587
00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:23.599
most it does like a dB you know that gets.
588
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.799
Not including on the on the drums and the bass
589
00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.839
on the drums, the bass, yeah, everything, Yeah, you're narrowed
590
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.440
in on that frequency zone. You're like, it's not going
591
00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:33.519
to actually affect the punch of the bass. It's only
592
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:35.079
going to affect the mid range where it might be
593
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.400
masking the vocals present.
594
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:38.880
Yeah, well, I have a couple of different bands in it,
595
00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:41.680
but it's only because it's separated that way and doing
596
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.319
a multi band. It's only when the vocals are getting
597
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.839
really like if there's a lead vocal that is pitch
598
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:51.880
shifted and foreman shifted down to octaves and is meant
599
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.759
to be some word crazy like textural thing and it's
600
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.440
so loud, then it would maybe affect a little bit
601
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.599
of the kick drum. But usually if I'm doing something
602
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.279
like that realistically, that's probably meant to be such a
603
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.440
unique moment in the song that I'm probably muting everything
604
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.920
else that's happening anyway, and it's just focusing on like
605
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.440
the only thing that you can hear in that little
606
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:15.000
split second is that those two notes that is a
607
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:19.960
super affected low octave vocal. So it really wouldn't matter anyway,
608
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:22.160
it's just when there happens to be like if there's
609
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.200
a really big group vocal that comes in and it's
610
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.440
really big in full and it's meant to be huge
611
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.640
like in that in those little situations when it happens
612
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:34.519
to go high enough over the threshold in the you know,
613
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.160
like the lower mid range that it does anything to
614
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:40.720
the kick, I'm okay with that because the punch of
615
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:44.240
the kick is not the priority there. The priority is
616
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.480
clearly the big wall of vocals at this huge, like
617
00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:50.559
you know, pinnacle moment of the song. So if my
618
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:55.279
kick drum punch gets reduced by half a dB for
619
00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:59.440
that one moment, nobody's gonna notice, And if anybody notices it,
620
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:03.079
then like I didn't make the actual vocal moment exciting.
621
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.079
Enough anyway, Right, Yeah, I love that.
622
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.279
But I've found that I do this same approach. Like
623
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:12.359
it's why I actually process any sort of like solo,
624
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.079
Like if there's like a guitar solo in it, or
625
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.319
like a sim solo or whatever, I process that as
626
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.480
a lead vocal because I look at it in the
627
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:22.960
same way where whether it's a lead vocal or it's
628
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.880
like a lead instrument, that's the thing that should be
629
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:26.839
in front of everything else.
630
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.039
So that's going they're all going to the same bus,
631
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:32.559
and that bus is trigger is triggering the side chain compressor.
632
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:35.400
Yeah, so there's a guitar solo in the bridge that's
633
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.720
actually going to be making all of the other instruments,
634
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.839
you know, duck out a little bit when it's going
635
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.680
over the threshold for like the upper mid range or
636
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:46.880
for like the lower package, whatever it is. So I'm
637
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:50.359
treating it like a lead vocal because a lead vocal
638
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:54.440
is to me synonymous with you know, the sonic priority.
639
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.720
What is the narrative priority from.
640
00:29:57.640 --> 00:29:59.359
Moments of the storytelling moment.
641
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.720
Yeah, guitar solo acts as that storytelling moment. That's what
642
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.519
you know. People wouldn't add a guitar solo if they
643
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:06.839
didn't want you to listen.
644
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:10.440
To it, you know, No, So for sure, Well, I
645
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.839
actually do sometimes guitar solos that are like background guitar
646
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.000
solos for like a big chorus where you just want
647
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:17.880
to have a little bit more energy, But it's not
648
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:20.480
really a solo. I guess it's just like guitar likes
649
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:21.160
in the background.
650
00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:23.440
Yeah, because yeah, that it's that's the thing, Like, it's
651
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.799
not a solo. Then it's like it is a it's
652
00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:26.480
a lead part.
653
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.160
I love how Like, yeah, just like talking about lead vocals,
654
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:31.200
we have to talk about everything else in the mix
655
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:35.039
because they just it's all part and parcel, right, can't.
656
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.240
You can't divorce the vocal from the mix, and you
657
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.880
can't divorce the mix from the vocal. It's all because
658
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.319
the mix is supporting the vocal and the vocal has
659
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.039
to sit in the mix. So yeah, they just go
660
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:47.359
together in such a I think.
661
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.720
That's you know why it's it's so weird to say
662
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:51.759
it out loud. I never really I don't think I
663
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.599
ever really thought about it in this sense. But I
664
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:58.640
think the first few steps of mixing vocals are investigating
665
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.200
the instrumental, making changes to the instrumental, like before I
666
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:05.960
even really touch the vocal. I mean, it makes sense
667
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:07.440
when you say it out loud, but I don't think
668
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.359
I've ever like said that out loud before. I don't
669
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.079
think I've ever really thought of it in those terms.
670
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:13.759
But yeah, that's like that has to be the first step.
671
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.319
But I think that's the that's the thing that especially
672
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.559
online production education and like mixing education kind of skips
673
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:25.359
over it's that initial deep dive into understanding what the
674
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:28.519
context is that you're trying to create and what is
675
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.240
the context that you currently have, and that is what
676
00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.960
informs all of those decisions. And I think it's usually well,
677
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.839
the first step is you're going to you know, remove
678
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:40.559
any unnecessary low end, you know, like it's usually like
679
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:48.200
diving into these objectalities, like these like supposedly objective technicalities
680
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:53.200
that really aren't taking into consideration what's actually happening. Because
681
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:55.079
I would even say, you know, when it comes to
682
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:57.920
getting rid of like that the super low end, if
683
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.079
it's a section of the song where there's other layers happening,
684
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.960
which happens a lot in the you know, alt pop
685
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.559
kind of kind of world that I'm in, then yeah,
686
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.279
I don't want there to be any extra low end
687
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:12.839
mud that's not musical because there's plenty of other instruments
688
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.400
in that section. Well, let's say that it drops down
689
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:19.839
to a bridge where it's literally just vocal and piano
690
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.960
or maybe an acoustic guitar or something. Well, then there's
691
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.680
nothing else happening in that bottom end. And if I
692
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:29.079
get rid of the those like subrequencies from the vocals,
693
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.039
not only does it sounds empty, but also it doesn't
694
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.160
sound as intimate because if it was just you know,
695
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.559
if you are just listening to somebody talk and you're
696
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:41.400
next to them, like you do feel those those vibrations,
697
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.119
you do, you do feel that, So it actually makes
698
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:50.480
it feel more intimate if you're less cautious of what's
699
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.480
happening in the bottom end for those moments.
700
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.480
Yeah, what I do all the time is just like
701
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:57.599
make duplicate tracks and have like slightly different eques on them.
702
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.960
You know, a high pass that's like cutting a lot
703
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:04.279
more highs or whatever. Yeah, like cutting going deeper, you know, yeah,
704
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:06.559
you know, or just like finding a frequency that's bothering
705
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:08.599
me in this one specific spot that's like you know,
706
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.119
not working with the guitar for some reason, or the
707
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:12.880
guitar is not working with the vocals. So like, let's
708
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:15.880
dip out five hundred hertz in this one spot you know,
709
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.319
for this like two measures, and then it'll go back
710
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.119
to the way it was, you know the next measure,
711
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:21.680
because now it's on a different track.
712
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:22.359
Yeah.
713
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:26.759
Yeah, it's constantly in motion and moving. Yeah, it's it's
714
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:28.160
all part and parcel. But one thing I wanted to
715
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.559
kind of talk about in terms of like gluing a
716
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.519
vocal with the mix is sharing reverbs, And I don't
717
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:36.839
know if there's something that you do, but I tend
718
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.240
to like have a few reverbs on a lead vocal,
719
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:41.519
like I would say two or three reverbs and maybe
720
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.640
two delays or something typically on like on a lead vocal,
721
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.720
and a lot of other instruments are probably going into
722
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.000
some of those reverbs, so not all of them, but
723
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.480
like the guitars and the pianos could be going into
724
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:54.400
the same you know, maybe it's a plate reverb that
725
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:56.799
the vocal is on and it will mesh them into
726
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:57.599
the same space.
727
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.119
Do you have like one like well, I'm just gonna
728
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:04.400
call it bus fifty, right, yeah, bus fifty first fifty.
729
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.079
If you see bus fifty is your plate reverb? Do
730
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.000
you have the vocals going to bus fifty and also
731
00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:12.199
the guitar going to bus fifty and also that or
732
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.519
do you have it like no, bus fifty is for
733
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.800
like the the vocals going to that plate reverb and
734
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.280
then bus fifty one is the same settings as bus fifty.
735
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.360
But well it could be either way. It kind of
736
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.960
depends on the mix. Yeah, I don't always duplicate the
737
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.840
settings and use it differently with different instruments, because I
738
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.519
don't always have to, and it's just like the way
739
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.719
I'm used to mixing. But sometimes I do and sometimes
740
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.360
I don't, kind of fifty to fifty. But but yeah,
741
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.039
it could be the same bus that it's like an
742
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:44.760
auxiliary bus and there's a reverb plugging on it, and
743
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.039
I'm sending it from the lead vocal, and I'm sending
744
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:50.239
it from the acoustic guitars, and I'm sending you know,
745
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.840
I don't know, the mandolin whatever. They're all going to
746
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.239
that in various amounts. And then if you solo that
747
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.360
auxiliary bus, you'll hear a bunch of vocal reverb and
748
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:01.239
then a little bit of those other reverbs. But it
749
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.079
could also be in two separate auxiliaries that are playing
750
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:05.239
that have the exact same settings.
751
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:07.639
Yeah, mine for me, like I always go to separate ones,
752
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:09.519
like I always have, like I have, I have a
753
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:10.360
separate one for.
754
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:13.800
You're doing much cleaner like kind of pop mixes than
755
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.400
I am, and it's it's more necessary probably for the
756
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:18.199
stuff that you're doing well.
757
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:19.760
I would say it's just about having it be a
758
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.239
clean pop mix. It's more that I want control control,
759
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.400
to be able to have a moment where I can
760
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:30.280
like hard mute all of the instruments and totally vocal
761
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:33.760
reverbs are able to still continue, but the instrumental reverbs
762
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.400
are muted, which I can't do because like you can
763
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:40.119
try to like stop sending them preemptively, you know.
764
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:42.119
And it's just like a weird thing.
765
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:43.559
And that's something that you do all the time, and
766
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.199
that's something that doesn't come up very often in the
767
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:47.239
music I'm working on.
768
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.679
Like every every mix that happens at some point, Like
769
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.519
I'm being very I do a lot of automation on
770
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:54.000
my effects buses.
771
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:57.000
Yeah, no, ill, I know that about you, And I'm
772
00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:58.840
just saying, like for me, that's like one out of
773
00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.360
fifteen mixes that that happens. So but just because of
774
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:03.679
the styles of music we're working.
775
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:05.599
On, yeah, and for me it's like sixteen out of fifteen.
776
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:11.159
Yeah exactly, yea perfect. Anyways, the point is less the
777
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.719
technicality of how I'm doing it and more the point
778
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:16.559
of just like finding a space for the mix and
779
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:18.880
having the vocal and some other instruments live in that
780
00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:22.320
same space can really help things jive and mesh together.
781
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.119
And I'm a big blender of reverbs. I like to
782
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:27.440
use a lot, like a bunch of different reverbs to
783
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:30.800
get a amalgamation that has like the right space for
784
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:33.679
the song, you know, and it also reverb will like
785
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:36.840
it affects like the emotion of the vocal and it
786
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.960
also places it in that space of the mix. And
787
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:42.119
I find that I just like have a lot of
788
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.639
success using multiple reverbs to do that. Yeah, And I
789
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.519
have a lot of success of some instruments sharing reverbs
790
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.760
with the vocal to get it all to mix together,
791
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.199
and that you know, usually the drums are not going
792
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:55.280
to any of those kinds of reverbs, right like, but
793
00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:58.719
often a piano or a guitar or you know, some
794
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.519
other accompanying instrument will, but also the vocal will have
795
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:04.239
more reverbs that they're not going to.
796
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.440
Yeah, I just as you were saying that, it reminded
797
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.480
me to add a song to the Secret Sonics.
798
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.599
I was so on top of it, and I lost it.
799
00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:13.199
This week we need to add more song more.
800
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:15.800
I added a couple, but this one I was gonna say,
801
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.639
like we're talking about, you know, using different reverbs. I
802
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:22.960
think the artist that I feel is like a masterclass
803
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.360
in reverb. Every time I listen to them, it's Vampire Weekend,
804
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:29.880
and they have some songs where just like the the
805
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:33.679
use of reverb and the use of different reverbs to
806
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.760
just create these interesting characters for each of the tracks,
807
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:41.039
it is unreal. So yah Hey is the one that
808
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:44.280
I just added to the playlist now. It is there
809
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.320
are some moments that are just so big and reverby,
810
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:53.599
and then some parts that are so like uncomfortably dry
811
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:58.280
that even the contrast between them creates this like almost
812
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:00.679
like a like a hostage note where it's like you
813
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:02.599
know what I mean, like the different like cutout letters
814
00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:04.719
from a magazine or like a like a kidnapper what
815
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.960
was sent, but like in a really good way, And
816
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.800
so it's kidnapping, but for the greater good of music.
817
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:15.039
And I'm always fascinated by listening to their music and
818
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:17.199
headphones because number one, like the songwriting is always so
819
00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:20.960
weird and so memorable and catchy despite how weird it is,
820
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:25.960
but their use of space is always something that continues
821
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.400
to fascinate me. So I would recommend definitely listen to
822
00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:33.840
ya Hey by Vampire Weekend in your monitors or in
823
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:37.000
really great headphones because it is just it's an experience.
824
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.280
I have to say. I don't know what I'm about
825
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:41.719
to do, but I will say that I have never
826
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:46.519
gotten into Vampire Weekend because I found that the use
827
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:51.239
of reverb, while cool, made it feel less emotional. You know.
828
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.880
I felt like there was an emotional disconnect inside of
829
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:57.199
Vampire and Weekend's music for me, because it felt like
830
00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.360
they were just using things as an effect asteat of
831
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:03.440
like like they were using it too like too much almost,
832
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:05.880
And even if they're doing it really well, which they are,
833
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.000
it feels like it takes away from whatever songwriting is
834
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:12.679
underneath it. They've actually lost me from their reverb, which
835
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:14.719
is like the opposite of what you're saying, which is
836
00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.000
really funny. And there's other artists that I've lost me
837
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.599
because of reverb, actually thinking of Flea Foxes, like their
838
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.559
first record, which is like, should be an amazing record
839
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:24.599
I should love, but it's like the same reverb on
840
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:26.960
the whole record, and it's so wet, and it's just
841
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:29.480
like I can't, I can't listen to this anymore, Like
842
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.480
it's taking away from whatever else is happening here. So
843
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:34.840
I'm not a post to using a lot of reverbs sometimes,
844
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:37.239
but I'm for me, like, it could be really cool
845
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.159
in a one spot in a song, but if a
846
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:40.880
whole song has a lot a lot of reverb and
847
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:43.559
they're using it to kind of they're almost like leaning
848
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:45.960
on it, I lose it because it no longer talks
849
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:47.320
to me on emotional level, you know.
850
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:49.599
Yeah, well, I think there's two things. I say.
851
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:54.039
Number one, I think it's just a difference between using
852
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.960
reverb to create a sense of space and using reverb
853
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:02.199
to create a sense of character. Yeah, and we both
854
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:04.239
just like and it's like not that one is objectively
855
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:07.079
right or wrong, just like yeah, it's like, especially if
856
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:08.679
you think about even the styles of music that we
857
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.639
work on, like you tend to lean more towards the
858
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:15.920
acoustically driven, like natural instruments in a space, and for me,
859
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.800
I'm into like weird sound design things, so like, of
860
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:20.480
course it makes sense that I'm going to be drawn
861
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:23.719
to the some of the like the same aspects that
862
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:25.159
you actually are.
863
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:26.000
Pushed away by.
864
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So yeah, the first thing is that
865
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:29.679
there's no objectively right or wrong.
866
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:30.599
But the second thing.
867
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:32.199
Is, and this is also such a tangent from what
868
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:33.079
we should be talking about.
869
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.400
No, no, we're talking about we're talking about vocal like vocal
870
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:37.320
but how it's how it's in the mix. So this
871
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.679
is like perfectly okay, cool, Like this is spot on.
872
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:42.400
So yeah, number one, there's no objective.
873
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:43.760
I like, how much we disagree about this?
874
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.039
Also, like yeah, well that's That's what I'm going to say.
875
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:48.039
Is like number one, there's no objective right or wrong
876
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:51.000
about you know, if the reverb is right or not.
877
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:53.840
But number two there's one exception, and it is that
878
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:55.719
you are wrong and you're an idiot and I hate you.
879
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.039
Wow, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, Ben.
880
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:03.440
I know, I know you're kidding.
881
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:05.639
But how often how often do we disagree on something?
882
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.639
That's crazy? But but but we.
883
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:10.239
Always have different approaches and we always have different thoughts.
884
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.599
Yea.
885
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:13.039
But like it's interesting that that really drew you in
886
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:14.840
and that really like turned me off.
887
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.440
Yeah, that's that's awesome. Though I'm glubly.
888
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.480
We found that that's a really good way of trying
889
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.480
to describe the difference in what is, you know, what
890
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:24.039
was being in versus what draws you in.
891
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.159
Yeah, they're they're a band. I literally I tried to
892
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:29.559
like and I and I it repelled me actually, which
893
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:31.679
is super weird. And they they should be a band.
894
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:35.519
I like, you know, you know, like in theory, but uh,
895
00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:37.280
I don't know, that's that's me.
896
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.800
Yeah, well, it was nice being your co host. I
897
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:47.679
appreciate this time we spend together. Oh god, no, but no, Okay,
898
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:49.760
So I kind of feel like this is a good
899
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.360
a good place to end today. Not in a good
900
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:57.840
place to end our friendship, but in a end the episode. Now,
901
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.599
I think that's that's awesome, And I think I think
902
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.280
what I will say is, if you're listening to this,
903
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:03.280
if you're still listening to this, let us know, what
904
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.280
are some of the songs that you think have really
905
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.599
great uses of vocal space. You know, it doesn't have
906
00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:11.280
to be reverb on the on, the on the whole,
907
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:13.599
doesn't have to be reverb specifically, but like, you know,
908
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:15.360
what are some examples of songs where you feel like
909
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:18.480
the vocals really just are done so perfectly well in
910
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:20.719
the mix, and maybe some examples of songs that you
911
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:22.639
really don't like how the vocals are treated.
912
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.280
Yeah, And I'm I'm gonna add a I know, I'm like,
913
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.400
I'm such a radiohead fan and it's like so obvious,
914
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.719
but I'm going to add a Radiohead song to the
915
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.519
to the list now, like exit music for a film
916
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.000
like that is the perfect space for a vocal to
917
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:35.920
live in. For me, I don't know, So I'm gonna
918
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:38.480
add it to our list. People couldn't have a listen
919
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:40.559
to what Ben likes and what Ben detests and what
920
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:42.199
Karl likes and probably also likes.
921
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:43.840
I was gonna say.
922
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.800
I was like, I'm like, I want to be spiteful
923
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.800
and I want to pretend that I don't love that
924
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:49.440
song and that.
925
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:52.400
I nobody hates it, like you know, okay, computer, So
926
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:54.320
I can't. It's hard to hate it.
927
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:58.320
I can't even sarcastically pretend to hate it. Yeah, but
928
00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:03.280
I can sarcastically pretend to hate you and say and say, well,
929
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:04.760
you know what, you know what?
930
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:06.519
Bye Ben?
931
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.000
I was I was waiting for, like fuck you, goodbye,
932
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:11.440
fuck you goodbye.
933
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:13.519
I mean bye, Carl, I mean I love you, bye,
934
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:14.079
love you.
935
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:18.679
Bye. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as
936
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.519
we did. If anything here resonated with you, please share
937
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.760
this or your favorite episode with a friend.
938
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.000
And as always, we love to hear from our listeners,
939
00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:29.280
so find us on social media at Secret Sonics.
940
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.440
At Ben Wallace Music, and at Carl Vonner.
941
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:34.840
Until next time, Bye Ben.
942
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:39.400
Bye Carl. That was good. I think the outro is great.