Interviews E10 Anujay Krishna - High Hydration Sourdough, Open Crumb and Reading the Dough

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Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
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Today's guest is someone you have been asking me to bring on for a while, and I'm really excited to finally have him here.
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Anujay Krishna is a baker in Lucknow, India, and if you've seen his bread, you probably understand why people are so curious about his process.
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His loaves have this incredibly open, delicate, almost lacy crumb.
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And of course, I wanted to know how he gets there.
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What I loved about this conversation is that it became about much more than just an open crumb.
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Anujay learned to make this style of sourdough in a completely different environment than many of the bakers who originally inspired him.
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Different flour, different climate, different equipment, and a place that already had an incredibly rich bread culture of its own.
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So we get into how he evaluates flour, builds strength, manages fermentation, and thinks about hydration and also how he adapts his process around the ingredients and conditions that he has access to.
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And I think that is really the larger lesson here: not how to copy a new Jay's loaf, but how to become a better observer of your own dough with the ingredients that are available to you.
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I know you are going to feel so inspired when you hear this conversation, and I just can't wait for you to hear it.
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So without any further ado, I'm Allie White, and this is Saving Bread.
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Some of my dearest friends in the world are from India, from Udiana, and I've traveled there not too long ago.
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It's been about three years now, but I I just loved it there, and I had such an amazing time.
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And I I feel like I could have spent a year there and never seen everything that I wanted to see.
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And um I'm really excited to talk to you because you're living there, and I'm assuming you've lived there your whole life.
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And I just I want to hear more about this because as I shared with you on Instagram, when I was there, I met up with another sourdough baker, and I had no idea that people in India were making sourdough because I'm sure it's hard to source flour, and it's just a different product that I'm sure a lot of people are used to there.
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So I'm really excited to hear more about that too.
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So why don't we start with you just telling us like your bread story?
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So, what did bread mean to you growing up?
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Why don't you tell our listeners where you're living, where you grew up, and kind of like your bread history?
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I would love to hear it.
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Yeah.
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So basically, I'm from Lucknow, India.
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It's a small town in the northeastern part.
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And the bread for me in India, we have usually have flatbreads.
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So growing up, it was mostly like a roti or a parata that we call here.
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It's like a flatbread.
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Some of them are made without any oils or enriched dough, and some of them are made with it.
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So roti and parata was the one that I grew up with.
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But my bread SP, I mean, I was never into baking.
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I seriously don't even know how I got into sourdough.
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I always loved cooking uh with my grandma.
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She was a great cook, and that's how I even got into the kitchen.
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Because my sister is literally the averse of me, and she literally doesn't like as much as I do, she hates it.
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So yeah, I think that's where it began.
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So was your grandma making any of these flatbreads?
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Like was any of that being made in the home?
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Okay.
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And so tell me about like one of the ones that she made because I'm so interested to hear about it.
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Yeah.
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So what I liked the most that she made was this parata.
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And we have variations of it, some uh stuffed with potatoes, some up stuffed with caught cheese.
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So she made this really good one with potatoes, onions, and coriander.
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So you basically boil potatoes and then you put some spices like salt, coriander powder and stuff, and then you add some fresh coriander, some thinly sliced onions, and then you stuff it inside the dough, and then you roll it out, and then you toast it on a pan with some oil.
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So that was really good, and that has really stuck with me forever.
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That's amazing.
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I'm so hungry right now, and so that sounds really good.
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Oh, by the way, my kids will probably come in and out of the background.
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Is there a leavening agent in that type of bread, or is it strictly just a flat bread?
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Like, is there I think you said you mentioned cottage cheese or maybe yogurt?
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Is there something in it to help it rise at all, or is it strictly just a flatbread?
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No, for the for the roties and paratas, no leavening agent is used.
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It's it's like a straight dough.
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There's no leavening agent inside it.
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Okay, that sounds delicious.
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I don't have really any experience making flatbreads, other than I think I've tried a pita bread once before, but it was not very successful.
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I feel like that is an art all of its own and such a beautiful part of Indian food and culture, or these gorgeous flatbreads, and I really enjoy eating them all when I was there.
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I like the of course the deep fried run, the deep fried one.
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I think it's called batura.
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Is that right?
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Batura, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, of course.
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I think you must have kulchars as well.
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Because I think Amnitzar is really famous for their kulchars.
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That's again another type of flatbread.
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Yeah.
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And then I I think I tried one that was maybe the whole wheat roti, and I really liked that one as well.
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So this is really interesting.
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You have this experience growing up, being in the kitchen with your grandma, seeing her make flatbreads, and the bread that you make and you post on your Instagram is the opposite of that.
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You have big, tall, beautiful loaves that are gorgeously open.
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I don't love like a super open crumb.
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I like something that's more even, and you've just done it so well.
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It's open, but it's very even and things are not going to be falling through the crumb or anything like that.
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So, can you tell me how you first learned about this type of bread and what inspired you to make something so different than what you grew up eating?
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Yeah.
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So sourdough, this was back in 2022.
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I don't think anybody was doing sourdough in my city.
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It was still pretty new to everyone.
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I didn't have anything to look at or maybe even taste.
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But around that time, I remember around social media, everybody was having it, posting on their stories with some kind of like avocado toast, side eggs, and everything.
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I really want to try it.
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But because of the temperatures here and everything, I couldn't even get it from outside, from another city.
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So I was like, why not just try and make it?
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So, first thing I went up to YouTube and searched for a video.
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And I remember it was his name is Hendrik.
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He runs his channel by the name of the breadcode.
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So I found his video about making a starter and starting from rye flour.
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So that's when I mixed rye flour and water.
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Then I waited for about two months because I got into it.
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I went in into like Facebook communities searching what people are doing, what is happening, and I saw these like really underproof gummy loaves, and people were not able to figure out what went wrong.
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So I was really scared.
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I didn't make my first bread before like two months.
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I kept feeding my starter, discarding, feeding.
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I did waste a lot, but I'm happy that I made it, made my starter Hindi and then began.
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I remember my first bread.
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It didn't even, I mean, I think it would be an injustice to call it a bread because it was more like a chia bata.
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But because I severely overproved it, it was still very eatable and it tasted great.
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So that's how I just went fell in love with the process, actually.
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Wow, that's interesting.
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I actually feel well, I guess I I see both sides of the the story of Baker's first loaves, me included.
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It's either severely underproved or severely over, but yours was still edible.
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So good job.
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Mine was not at all.
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You made your own starter.
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That's amazing.
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I that's something I still haven't done.
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I tried the pineapple method recently, the pineapple juice one, and that was a whole adventure.
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You said that you used rye.
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Where did you source that within India?
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Did you have to have it shipped in?
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I want to get into flour sourcing a little bit more later, but I'm very curious.
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Like, where does that come from?
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Tell me more about that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So rye flour, I was really, I mean, I was really new.
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I didn't know what to from where to get it or what quality was it.
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So I just went on to Amazon and searched for it.
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And the first thing I saw, I just bought it and then started making it.
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Still today, I think I mean, I've searched for it, but rye flour is not that common here.
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And even if you get it, the one that I used to feed my starter, it's really expensive and it's not really feasible to do it.
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So it's just something packet that you get.
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It's not really fresh.
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There's one company in India that does it.
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I think it's called 31 Farms.
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But again, it depends on the season if it's available or not.
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Right.
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Okay, so are you still feeding your starter with rye?
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Uh no.
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So my first mother's starter was made with rye.
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Then I converted it to an all-white starter, and now I feed it with bread slard and a little bit of whole wheat.
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Great.
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And are you able to find whole wheat more easily and white flour more easily where you're located?
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I have to get it shipped from another city.
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It's still not, we don't have any mills or manufacturers of bread slot in my city.
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So I get it shipped from Delhi.
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Great.
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I've been to Delhi as well.
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Um so that is a journey.
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It's not too far, but it's it is far.
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But I love that it's still within India.
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Can I ask, are is I don't know if I'm getting this right, but is it true that Durham grows more in India?
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Durham wheat?
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I think so, yeah.
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I've heard about it.
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Yeah, okay, interesting.
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I I have not worked with Durham um directly, but I did hear that that is one that's growing over there.
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But if you ever end up working with it, I'd be interested to hear about your experience.
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So you were inspired by people who were baking on Instagram.
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You saw these loaves, but you had to kind of go through some hurdles to get the kind of flour that you wanted and make the type of bread that you wanted.
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Were you getting most of your education from that YouTube page?
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No.
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So most of the education, I think it was that one video of the starter.
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Then he had a masterclass video.
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But after that, I joined a lot of Discord communities and Facebook communities.
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What I used to do was I would bake, I would post it and then ask for feedback and how I can improve.
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So at that time I was basically baking daily, and whatever people told me, I used to work on it on the next loaf and then see the results.
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And I think that's as I think Josh also said in the podcast that it's about getting your reps in.
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I think that's really important.
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Instead of searching for a specific book or a specific video, the more you do it, the more you're the more you get comfortable with your do and your conditions.
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So I think that's really true.
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I agree completely.
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I'm really curious.
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What are the conditions of where you're located as far as temperature or humidity?
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When you were posting these pictures of your bread and you were getting feedback, did you find that the advice was very helpful or did some of it not apply to where you're located?
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How have you had to kind of navigate that as far as weather and temperature?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Whenever I used to post it, because most of the weevil were from Europe or America.
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So the feedback that I used to get was mostly about how I could maybe improve.
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So at that time I didn't have any knowledge about bread whatsoever.
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So whatever they told me I used to apply, I was I stuck to one flour.
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I didn't change my flour, but I used to experiment with watching my bulk fermentation, mixing the dough and everything.
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About the conditions, I would say now I'm more observant, and it's again the extreme conditions that we have here, like maybe 40 degrees sea weather.
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Right now we're in the middle of the monsoon season, so it's a little bit cooler, but again, it's really warm at the moment.
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So I have definitely had to adjust my process somehow.
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But the feedbacks or how I could improve was what people told me about these main things that we have on recipes: change your mixing, how long are you mixing, what signs are you seeing after you are done mixing, where are you ending your bulk fermentation, things like that.
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Great.
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Those are all really important things to think about.
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Some of the questions that I keep getting and some of the DMs that I'm getting a lot now that I've started this podcast and I'm asking people different questions.
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The same question that I keep getting on repeat is how do I know when it's time to move on to the next step?
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How do I know when bulk fermentation is ended?
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What signs am I looking for?
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And I have a very hard time describing that to someone because I do think it can change.
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It can change based off of what types of flour you're working with, where you're located, um, what you're going to be doing after shaping the fridge.
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Like there's all of these things to take into consideration.
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And so what you're describing, and again, to echo what Josh said, is just getting in the reps and noticing the dough at each step and at each stage and really having that intimate relationship with it.
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That is what helps you learn what to look for.
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It's just spending time with your dough.
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Would you agree with that?
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Exactly.
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I mean, I'm a true believer of that because I've experienced it firsthand.
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For example, say a percentage rise or using a pH meter.
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They are helpful.
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If you're working in, say, a bulk bakery, it's not really possible for you to do these things on a daily basis again and again.
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So the more you get comfortable with your dough, the happier you will be with your final result, I would say.
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Well, I am in awe of what you do in your bakery, what you have created.
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Your loaves are incredible.
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And I always say the mark of a good baker is when that loaf comes across Instagram and I know who made it.
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It's like a signature, and yours has that quality.
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I know that it's yours, whether it's like the angle that you're shooting it from, the color of the crust and the crumb, right away.
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I know that it's your bake.
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And so that really excites me when bakers have that ability to express themselves completely through their bread.
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Thank you.
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And if you're comfortable with it, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your signature process.
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You don't have to tell us everything, but I know that people are going to tune into this interview and say, I want to make bread just like that.
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And they might be struggling in some of the ways that you did initially, where things are overproofing or there wasn't enough gluten development.
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And I would like to just hear a little bit more because I've commented on one of your posts before and like gotten your recipe back and your method and everything.
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And I love the way that you've sort of structured and simplified it.
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But for anyone that hasn't seen that yet, let's start with your flower selection and then the process after that.
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Well, actually, first of all, let's say that we have to have a healthy starter, right?
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Yeah, exactly.
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I mean, that's the most important for especially for these conditions that I'm experiencing here in India.
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Proper care of a starter becomes even more important.
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So not randomly just following the schedule.
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Knowing how your starter behaves and when it needs food is very important.
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I now have a broaden tailor, the sourdough home kit.
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So what I do, I follow a schedule, I follow some ratios.
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I'm feeding twice every day, maintaining it at about 23 degrees Celsius, and I feed it at 166.
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But before this, when I didn't have it, I had to during the peak summer months, even if I fed it say 155, 166, I had to do it three times.
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So again, it really depends on when your starter needs food.
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It was never a fixed moment when I was not able to maintain a constant temperature.
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But for now, it's twice every day and the 166 ratio and maintain that 23 degrees Celsius constant.
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And you mentioned that was a mixture of bread flour and a little bit of whole wheat.
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Exactly, yeah.
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So it's about 95% bed flour and 5% of whole wheat.
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Fantastic.
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:11.920
And tell us about your flour selection for your actual dough for your mix.
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:12.400
Yeah.
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:13.119
Yeah.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.599
So I've experimented with quite a bit of flowers that we get here in India.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:21.039
When I got into open trum baking, it was all about Italian flour.
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.720
So you need to have a high double flour and everything.
00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:26.880
So I started experimenting with it.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:34.240
But as I progressed, I I mean realized that it's not really feasible to buy that every time because it's really expensive.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:40.400
So I had to get back to what was available here and then try something with that.
00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:45.680
So there's this company called TWS here in India, and I use their flour.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:51.759
So the bread flour that I use is very similar to what you would get, like a T55 in France.
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:53.759
It's finely milled.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:02.960
And the whole wheat that I use is a mix of ancient wheat from the Deccan Plateau and it's modern wheat from central Madhya Pradesh.
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.880
It's also a region here in India.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:10.000
So I mix both both of those and then make my dough for the country sourdough.
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:15.759
Do you know what the protein quality is like on the white flour?
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:16.559
Yeah.
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:24.160
So this is a question that I get a lot from people because they see all these big alveoli and they're like, what's the protein percentage?
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:33.359
The package says 11.1%, but I read in Trevor's book before experimenting that it's more about the protein quality than the quantity.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:46.000
So I am an avid believer of that because the quality of the protein is really nice, even though it says 11%, which is almost an all-purpose flower, I would say, it behaves well and can handle higher hydrations as well.
00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:46.400
Yeah.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.839
This is a great point.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.200
And are you referring to Trevor Wilson's The Open Crumb Mastery?
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:51.599
Exactly.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:52.160
Okay, great.
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:53.440
I've read that book as well.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:54.960
Shout out Trevor Wilson.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:03.839
Um just a uh a leader and someone who has been preaching this since long ago.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.039
He's really um done great work for our community.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:20.160
I love this because I think that there's I don't know if it's like a misnomer or a misunderstanding about high protein equals um good, let's call it good gluten performance.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:20.720
Yeah.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.240
And it's not always the case.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:24.400
A great example of this is eincorn.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:30.480
Eincorn is very high in protein, but very, very bad at forming gluten.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.519
The gluten degrades rapidly within hours.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.680
So those two things are not always interconnected.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:40.880
So for our listeners, I think this is a really great learning opportunity.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:52.240
You're saying that even though the quote unquote protein percentage is low, like an all-purpose, the performance of the gluten is very strong, and you're saying it can hold a lot of water.
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:52.960
Right.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.079
That's correct.
00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:03.440
How could you learn how much water a flower can hold or the potential of its gluten if you've not worked with it before?
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:22.720
When I was taking feedbacks from the different communities, there was this post I saw where if you have a new flower and you want to understand how much water it can hold, or at what percentage it behaves the best, you take a bowl, put 50 grams of flour in it, and then you basically do different hydrations, say 70%, 75%, 80%.
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:29.680
You just mix it for like one to two minutes until it comes together, let it rest for an hour, and then check the window pane.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:38.720
And the one that has the strongest or you'd say the best balance between extensibility and elasticity is the one that you should move forward with.
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:43.759
Again, it's not the most great test, but it's a good place to start from.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:48.640
Do you feel comfortable defining extensibility and elasticity?
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.200
Because I think people get those two terms confused with each other and they don't understand the importance.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.079
We don't have to go into a deep dive, but what are you kind of looking for?
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:04.960
So elasticity, I would say it's very similar to stretching like a rubber band and its ability to come back to its position.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:09.359
Whereas extensibility is more like um stretching on a bubble gum.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:12.400
Say you stretch it and it keeps on stretching without breaking.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.200
So I think that'll be the best to put them in words, yeah.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.200
That's a really great analogy.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:18.160
I like that a lot.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.680
And I'll probably steal that and use that in my classes because I've never heard the bubblegum one before, but it's a great visual.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.720
And so you're looking for a balance between the two.
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:28.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:33.519
It should be extensible, but it should have some elasticity to back that extensibility.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:37.359
So that there's some support when it's going through fermentation and baking.
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:38.079
Right.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.640
Great.
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:39.200
That's good.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.720
So that's really helpful and some things that I've not heard before from anyone I've interviewed just yet.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.319
So thank you for that really valuable educational bit.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.559
And let's talk about gluten development.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:55.119
What are you are you mixing by hand?
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:56.799
Are you using a mixer?
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And what are you looking for at the end of your mix?
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:12.640
So right now I'm using a spiral mixer, but when I started, obviously I was not making so many loaves that I would invest in one, put five kgs or eight kgs of flour inside it.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:22.000
So if I'm and mixing, even today, if I'm making a loaf safer myself, I would do a long autonese with it, say eight to twelve hours inside the fridge.
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:29.200
Again, I can't do it at room temperature here because it's too warm, the enzymatic activity would just take over and destroy my dough.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:34.000
So I mix all of the water in with the flour and I pop it into the fridge.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.559
Next morning, I take it out like an hour or two before adding in the living.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:45.839
I have never heard of someone doing this, but it makes so much sense based off of where you're located.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:53.839
And I'm impressed that your flour can withstand that long of an auto-lease just being hydrated.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:00.160
That's um a really big clue as to how you're getting these beautiful loaves.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.599
So these days I'm using a spiral mixer, so it's almost like a usual schedule.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:10.960
I still do an auto-lease, but it's not because of the extensibility reason which most people do.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.759
It's more because I want to balance the dough temperature.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:23.279
I again, because it's so hot outside, I mix my like dough in a container, I leave it out for like say 30 minutes and then pop it in the fridge again.
00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.920
So when I start mixing my dough in the spiral mixer, it's kind of cool.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:37.599
And by the time I end mixing and the frictional heat, everything that's generated, I'm still in the ballpark of less than say 26, 27 degrees Celsius.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:38.559
Got it.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:49.759
What I'm hearing you say is that you will go to any lengths to make this bread based off of whatever weather conditions or life conditions that are being thrown at you.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:56.640
And I so admire that because I think when you get bit by the sourdough bug, it's like hell or high water.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:57.759
I will make this bread.
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:03.680
And that's like the mark of a really good, dedicated baker, someone who just figures it out.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:06.559
And hearing all of this is so interesting.
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.839
So you're you're mixing in the end of your gluten development.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:15.119
Are you looking for like a window pane at the end, or are you kind of holding back so that you can do folds?
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.599
What is your specific technique that you like?
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.920
So, yeah, so I always like to mix to fold gluten development.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:32.640
Although, in most of the books that I've read, the professional books, they say that you need to do a short mix and then rely on folds to develop it because dough matures slowly.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.319
But with sourdough, what I've personally noticed is I like to think very intuitively.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:44.160
I want to build a membrane first and then focus on inflating that membrane with my starter.
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.720
So it's very basic, but I like to mix it to full development.
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:54.480
I do like to do a window pane, I like to see the balance between extensibility and elasticity, as I told you.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:00.480
And for open crumb, although both are important, I would say if I had to choose one, it's extensibility.
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:12.960
Because when you say you're chewing on a bubble gum and you try to blow it, the force that you need to blow a very extensible bubble gum and an elastic one is very different.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:22.400
Sometimes what happens is people do a lot of folds even after mixing it very thoroughly, and then you make that membrane so tough that it's hard for the east to inflate it.
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:38.960
I get so stressed out physically, like in my body, when I see people on Instagram folding dough that's already tight or shaping dough that's already shaped, and then they're like stitching it, I get stressed because I'm like, yeah, the dough does not want that.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:50.000
You have to listen to what it needs, and that's a really great way to have that be a visual of allowing the dough to what you're describing is just relax.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.599
Relax, yeah.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:52.960
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:08.319
So if you're mixing to full development and you're kind of focusing on prioritizing, let's say prioritizing the extensibility, do you need to do any folds to your dough?
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:09.359
Yeah.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:14.960
So if you want to do a low fold approach, what I like to do is do a fold halfway into bulb.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.920
Say I'm bulfamenting to a 50% rise.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:23.440
So I would just give it a fold at say a 25% rise when it has accumulated a bit of air.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:30.559
So what happens is when you fold a dough at 25% rise, you're basically stacking all that alveoli that you have developed throughout.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:43.519
Or if you want to um pay attention to the whole process, you need to fold it when it comes, when it comes out of the mixer, you need to let it relax, say, for 30 minutes or an hour, depending on how your dough is.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.200
And then before folding again, you need to let it relax completely.
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:52.319
Do not fold it when it doesn't need it, because then it'll work against you.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.240
I completely agree with you.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:56.799
Have you tried no folds at all?
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.440
Is that part of your practice, or do you like to have kind of the structure of at least one?
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:08.240
Yeah, so what I have personally experienced is structure you can either build through folds or through fermentation.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:20.559
Because my flour is good, but again, I've not seen it behave very well at very long fermentations, or say I'm bully fermenting to above 100%, or I'm happy with just fermentation.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.279
So I have to physically give it structure.
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:35.759
Because when I say do a no-fold approach and then just bulferment it to where I'm happy, I've seen the low the loaves don't have such a tall profile, or they don't have that shape that I'm looking for.
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.240
So those folds really help in maintaining that.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:38.960
Yeah.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.599
Yeah, and I think the key term there too is what you are looking for specifically.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:52.799
You have a specific aesthetic that you're chasing, and so you're making choices along the way to get that goal in the end.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:53.839
Exactly.
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:54.640
Right?
00:27:55.519 --> 00:28:04.640
I feel, and I maybe I'm wrong, but I do feel that your loaves are really pushed to the edge of hydration.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:20.319
You're putting as much water in as that flour can hold through bulk fermentation all the way through, I'm assuming a cold retard and then going into the oven the next day.
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:21.279
That's fine.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:28.559
How did you do you just kind of like add a little bit each time, or do you just know your dough so well you know what it can handle at this time?
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.200
How is the hydration part of the puzzle for you?
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:37.599
Yeah, so I mean, when I started doing high hydration loaves, the max I would go to is like 80%.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.480
And I used to auto-lease most of it and then just mix it in a mixer.
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:46.640
But since I switched to a spiral, I've been noticing my dough was quite elastic.
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:54.960
Even if I let it rest, say, for an hour and then gave it a fold, it's quite elastic because of the all the high-speed mixing that I do.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:02.720
So I tried to add extensibility through water again, which is the reason why I do say 85 or 86% hydration.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:12.319
But one of the reasons that I did high hydration is because I like I mean, I personally like working with wet dough, especially at the time of shaping.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:18.559
I feel wet dough has a kind of it moves with you, it doesn't push you to behave a certain way.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:23.119
You have that extensibility that works with you and helps you fold the dough.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.359
So that's one of the reasons why I do it.
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:30.400
Again, I also do like 30% of levine instead of the 20% if you'll notice.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:31.920
Yeah.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:41.920
So I've felt the extensibility that I get from adding more levine is very different from the extensibility that I get from adding more water.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.640
It's really hard to describe the difference, but yeah, I've experienced that.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.000
Can I ask you?
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.599
I I do like to make loaves with 30% as well.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.559
It's not always possible for me because often I'm making about a hundred loaves.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:01.039
And so it's hard to keep up during the summer with that level.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:05.200
I have to drop it down to 1820 during the warmer months.
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:11.440
But um, do you find that your bulk fermentation moves a bit faster with that much Levan?
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:18.960
If someone's jumping up from, let's say they're doing 20 at a 100% hydration starter, they're doing 20% and they're like, oh, a new J does 30.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:19.920
I want to try 30.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:25.519
Should they maybe back off the timing for their bulk or have you noticed any changes?
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.759
So when I do 30 or 40%, it's usually a young leving.
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.160
Young Levine, basically, it's not peaked yet.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:38.400
So it kind of behaves similar to a mature leaving that's only added in, say, quantities of 20%.
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:44.799
So I wouldn't say it's very different in timing, but it does give a different texture to the dough.
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:45.839
Great.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.119
I this is a total side note and just a personal story.
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.440
My kids are still just cracking up in the background.
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.279
But um, I taught my three-day class at Central Milling.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.279
I have a hybrid loaf that's Levan and a little bit of yeast.
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.279
And I forgot to put the stiff starter in.
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:12.240
And when I went to go shit's a dough that you just mix and you let it bulk ferment, and then you turn it on and you just shape it, and then you proof it in the tints, whatever.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:22.240
As soon as I turned it out and I tried to shape it, I realized immediately that something was wrong because the dough wouldn't like stretch, it wasn't very extensible.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:27.359
And there's not a lot of lavan in the dough, but enough to make a difference.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:41.119
And that's when I kind of had that light bulb moment of oh, the Levan is not only fermenting, but it's adding like a an extensibility to the dough that I didn't realize until I forgot to put it in.
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:46.160
So that was that was a fun time to learn in the middle of a class that I was teaching.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:47.920
But it was a lesson.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.039
I remixed it and we just we just kept going.
00:31:51.519 --> 00:32:01.759
Um okay, so it's interesting to hear you talk about your high hydration because when I and I I do think that hydration is relative to the flour that you're working with.
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.880
If you have 100% whole wheat dough, 90 to 100% hydration is no big deal.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:13.359
But when you have mostly white flour and a little bit of whole wheat in your high hydration, that's a different story.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:27.119
And I think gluten development plays a big part of that and how much water it can hold, adding water in stages, um, like using a bassinage, which I'm assuming you do, um how much Levan, all of these things.
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:39.920
But when I watch you shape on Instagram, because I watch everything that you do very closely so that I can learn from you, I notice that you're not really using a lot of aggressive shaping.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:52.079
So even though the the loaves are very high hydration, sometimes when I hear about that or I see that, I think of someone doing tons of stitching, kind of like the double stitch and like shaping it really tight.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:58.480
But when you get to your shaping step, I've noticed that you have very gentle hands.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.519
So how did how did you get there?
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:07.440
Did you wait till a specific point in bulk fermentation where the dough is really strong and you don't need to?
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:08.640
Or what's that about?
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.240
How did you achieve that really gentle shaping method and what made you choose that?
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.640
Yeah, so again, I would advocate it to Trevor's book.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.519
I read about handling that there was a chapter.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:30.240
I didn't take it seriously back then, but I've read it about two to three times, and I now I realize the importance of handling what you're building throughout the dough.
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:39.680
So basically, I mean, what my aim is the the better the shape the dough the dough holds after bulk fermentation, the better it will hold during baking.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:46.079
So my aim at the end of bul fermentation, whatever hydration the dough is, is to have a dough that can actually hold itself.
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:53.039
Even when I turn the container out onto the bench, I want a dough that's that feels like a pillow almost.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.279
So that by the time it rests the pre-shapes rest, I come back.
00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:04.240
I don't have to add any tension or degas the dough or do anything extra than what the dough needs.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:12.880
So once I'm happy with what I've done during bulk fermentation, my aim during shaping is just to get it into that oval shape and put it in the banner.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.159
There's nothing like adding extra tension, yeah.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:23.519
I hope that what our listeners are hearing is that you make decisions based off of how the dough looks.
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:34.880
I love that you keep mentioning Trevor Wilson's book because I actually read that when I was traveling through India and I haven't read it since, and it's making me want to give it another go.
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:49.199
Are there any other takeaways from that book that you are still using in your practice or other points that kind of made you change the way that you change the way that you think about making bread?
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:50.320
Yeah.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:56.960
So from that book, I'd say what I learned the most important thing is firstly the handling of the dough.
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:01.840
The gentler you are, the more the bread is going to reward you at the end of the process.
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:16.559
And secondly, I would say a lot of people focus more on mixing, pre-shaping, shaping, but bul fermentation is literally most of the thing responsible for what you're trying to achieve from your bread.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:26.159
So once you have a healthy starter, I think the mixing, shaping, everything is important, but I think your priority should be the bul fermentation.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:29.519
That's the most important process, and you should know how to manage it.
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:30.800
I agree with you.
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.400
And I think that should be whether you're making one loaf or a hundred loaves.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:34.880
Right.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:43.199
And do you utilize any time in the basket after the dough has been put in there?
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:56.559
Are you using a basket rise, a basket rest, or are you pushing bulk fermentation as far as you can, dividing, shaping, and then going to the basket, going directly into either baking or your cold retard?
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.519
Or do you use any of that time in your basket?
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:00.559
Yeah.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:10.000
So after shaping, because I push bulb so much, there's no, I mean, most for most of the time I just skip the bench wrist and then put it directly in the fridge.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.760
Because I also I'm using like a home fridge, I don't have a commercial fridge.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:18.159
When I put all those baskets inside, the temperature goes up a bit.
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:24.000
So the dough goes on fermenting for quite a bit until it comes down to that fridge temperature.
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:30.159
So that's why just to prevent over fermentation or overproofing, I put them straight in.
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:35.119
And I can notice they rise slightly in those two to three hours until it comes down to that temperature.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:40.559
So I mean, I don't care to do proofing on the counter after shaping.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:52.559
So if someone's in a warm environment like you or bulk fermenting at a warmer temperature, the basket rest time might not be appropriate before they go into the fridge.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:59.599
If they're baking somewhere where it's really cold and the dough's really sluggish, then you could make up for maybe some of the fermentation there.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:02.800
Can you tell us how many loaves you're making on a weekly basis?
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:06.320
Yeah, so these days, so I do Tuesdays.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.599
I bake four days in a week sourdough, and I do about 12 to 15 loaves every day.
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:18.079
And then on the week weekends, I do like a weekend special, maybe a sourdough sandwich loaf or something with inclusions.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.320
But for most days I do sourdough, and those are from 12 to 15 loaves.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:22.960
Perfect.
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.559
That's like a nice like mid-level cottage production size.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:28.719
You mentioned an overnight cold retard.
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:33.440
It's just, I'm guessing, somewhere between 12 and 18 hours, or how long is it in there?
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:39.119
So mostly it's between 12 to 16, but I try to bake within 12 to 14 hours.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:39.360
Yeah.
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.199
I don't like to stretch it too much.
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:43.039
And what are you baking in?
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:52.480
So I recently switched to a deck oven, but before this, I had an Oni Pizza Stone that I had put inside my oven and I was open baking one by one.
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:56.719
So I used to spend like five, six hours baking one by one, one by one.
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:58.079
I've been there.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:37:58.960
I've been there.
00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.360
Yeah.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:00.239
It was rough.
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:01.760
That's how you know you love it though.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.599
You're like, I'm willing to just spend this whole day waiting.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:07.360
Can I ask you real quick?
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:13.760
And then I I want to move past your methods, but I I like making sandwich loaves.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.880
Typically, I just throw my country dough in a pan.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:21.199
I don't do anything different if I'm just doing a country sandwich loaf.
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:30.079
Sometimes I hear that when people try that, the sides of their tins are like I guess it's too soggy.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:33.199
And so they get pale sides or sides that sink in.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:35.840
Your pan loaves are beautiful.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.760
They're envious, truly.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:45.119
And I'm wondering, do you adjust your hydration at all for the pan loaf, or is it your just standard dough that you throw into a pan?
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:49.840
I change the process just a little bit, and that's during the time of shaping.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:55.519
I apply quite a bit of tension while shaping because I'm not I want an even crumb on the sandwich bed.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:57.039
I don't want very big holes.
00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:07.920
So my aim is to like really pat it down, not so much that I dig acid, but to make it even and then apply a bit of tension so that it can fit inside the container.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:15.199
Also, I like to change, like you said, some people suffer with that problem of pale sides and not getting them brown.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:20.079
So what I've been doing is I bake it with steam for the first 20 minutes.
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:27.760
And after that, once they have the structure set, I like to take them out of the tints, set them on a wire rack, and then put them back in the oven.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:32.000
So that way for the second part of the bake, everything bakes together.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:33.360
Great tip.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.639
It's nice because you don't have to change really much about the process.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.239
You don't have to mix a separate dough.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:38.559
Right.
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.239
It's not a different bulk fermentation time, it's not a different hydration.
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:48.159
You're saying a stronger shaping to have a slightly more closed crumb.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:48.480
Right.
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:58.239
And then on the second part of the bake after the crumb is set, to remove it from the tin and continue to bake so that we get a nice even bake.
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:06.719
What a great tip for someone to try the next time they go in if they're struggling with that, because I I do hear that one commonly, and I'm sure that you do too.
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:07.280
Yeah.
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:19.760
I'm assuming that since India has such a strong culture of flatbreads, has it been and this is just an assumption, and maybe I'm wrong.
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:27.840
Has it been a challenge to encourage people to try this kind of bread or are they really excited to try it because it's something new and different?
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:38.800
I'd say it's a mix of both, but it was definitely more of a challenge because the most expensive bread that we get here is say a 40 or a 50 rupee milk loaf.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:45.840
And to get them to consume a sourdough that's been fermented for 16 to 18 hours and you charge them 300 rupees.
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:47.360
It's a little bit difficult.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:56.800
And even if you do, sometimes people are so accustomed to having the milk loaf or the wonder bread, similar to a wonder bread, that the texture doesn't seem right.
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:04.800
So what I had to do initially was my focus was to get something that was midway, which felt more like a milk loaf.
00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:10.239
So that's why I do high hydration to get very soft crumb and then a very thin exterior.
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:16.800
Because personally I like thick crust, I like dense breads as well, but I'm not sure if people here would like it.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:22.480
So yeah, it was definitely a challenge to get them to switch to this kind of bed.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:30.079
And still today, I think not a lot of people like it, but there's definitely a growing interest of people that I've been seeing.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:35.760
Can I ask what your customers are consuming it with?
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:47.679
Are they eating it with traditional Indian dishes, or are they making, like you mentioned, avocado toast, or how are some of the ways people are enjoying your bread in your area?
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:50.559
So most of them do breakfast.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:54.880
So, for example, an avocado toast or a toast with egg.
00:41:55.199 --> 00:42:00.880
And I've not really seen people eat it with Indian curries or etc.
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:12.000
I personally like to do that, but most of what I've heard is that they like to do different kinds of toasts that they see on Instagram, maybe like some PBJ and put some bananas on top.
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:13.440
So those things like that.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:14.079
Yeah.
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:15.840
I love Indian food.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:17.360
We eat it all the time.
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.159
When I moved away from San Jose to Morgan Hill, there aren't as many options out here.
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:29.360
But when we do get it, I love to eat it with my sourdough because I do still order the traditional Indian breads because I love those too.
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.199
But I usually eat all of that right away.
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:37.440
And then I have my leftovers the next day, and I want to keep eating it with bread, and so I'll slice up some of whatever I made that week.
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.039
And it always tastes really good.
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:44.719
Like it always goes really nicely together to scoop up like the sauces and whatever I ordered.
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.679
And it's a nice pairing.
00:42:47.840 --> 00:43:05.840
I'll be curious to see as the bread culture of the types of bread that you're making continues to grow in your area, if people will start not replacing because it will never replace, but start trying it in different ways with the dishes that they're they're used to eating every day.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:06.400
Yeah.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:08.480
That'll be a really interesting to follow.
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.639
Um, we have a baker friend in common, right?
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.679
In India?
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:14.239
Yeah.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:15.440
Yeah, that's right.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:17.119
Navyosa.
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:18.079
Yes.
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:20.719
I think it's Naviosa.gpir.
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.480
I think you're right.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:23.119
Okay.
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:31.679
So let's um go to our kind of like closing questions, our closing vibes.
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:42.159
I started this podcast because I feel like bread needs saving, and I mean like bread in the traditional sense.
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:49.599
And again, India has such a strong culture around bread, and I don't think it's at risk of going anywhere.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:56.320
Um but the type of bread that you're making now, what are you hoping to see with it?
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.760
Do you have ideas of ways to kind of blend the two?
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:11.519
Um types of bread together in any new ways, or maybe with inclusions, or like we talked about encouraging people to eat it with traditional dishes.
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:17.679
Like what does that future look like for you and what are you trying to preserve and create where you are?
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:26.159
So I mean, for the kind of bread that I do, I I don't like to do inclusions inside my bread.
00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:27.760
I am not a very big fan of it.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:32.559
I prefer, for example, eating anything with it rather than stuffing it inside the bread.
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:37.519
So my aim with my bread is to keep it traditional how it's done, wherever it is.
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:39.599
And I want to take that forward.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:43.599
I don't want to Indianize it or make it so that people like it.
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.880
I want to do the traditional thing, the thing how it's done.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:55.519
And I mean, if people accept that's good, but I don't want to change and give people the the wrong image of what how it is.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:56.079
Yeah.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:57.360
I love that.
00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:03.440
And do you have plans to teach in your area?
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:12.559
Do you have plans to you know explore the idea of maybe getting wheat from local farmers?
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:14.320
Like what does that future look like for you?
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:20.159
I I've been getting a lot of requests and I'm seriously because I also like to teach a little bit.
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:22.559
So I want to get into that area.
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:33.519
And um, of course, I mean it would be a dream to actually interact with farmers, millers, and try most of the greens, which is still a little bit scarce in my city.
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:38.639
So if that happens, I mean I'd be the first one to do it, and I'll be really excited about it.
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:39.039
Yeah.
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:40.000
Of course.
00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:49.280
I think you would make uh from like one baker to another, and I've been a coach most of my life and teaching now.
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:56.320
I've only been teaching bread classes for a couple of years, but I think you would make an a great instructor.
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:06.480
I think that you have really done the work and you understand it in a way that I think a a lot of others don't, and it's a really unique perspective.
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:23.760
I I hope that that opportunity comes around for you should you want that, because I think that you have so much to offer and you're explaining things in ways that I've not heard before that really resonate with me, and you're great at giving visuals and you're so kind and patient with others.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:29.599
So if that's one of your dreams, I really hope that that comes to be because you're incredible.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.519
That means a lot coming from you.
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:33.360
I'm glad.
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.239
Um, so let's see, what else?
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:37.519
What other questions?
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:40.079
Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:40.960
Okay, yes.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.480
So, how can our listeners support you?
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:48.960
Because you've been so generous with your time and you've given out all of this information.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.159
Do you do one-on-one consultations?
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:59.599
Do you sell anything through your page, or how can we support you and help you grow and be on this journey with you?
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.599
Yeah, so I have my Instagram um at Danojayan Star, they can follow me there.
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:12.400
I'll be starting one-on-one consultation soon for everyone for bigners, for bigners or for advanced people.
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:20.800
And then for people in India, if they're interested in trying out the sourdough, I'm planning to do like a pan shipping all over India because the weather would be cooler.
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.480
So they can just send me a message and I'll try to work something out.
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:26.000
Fantastic.
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:36.960
So there's a lot of ways, and I know that you are going to have people just bombarding your DMs when you're ready to do one-on-ones because your bread is just so so beautiful.
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:38.880
Okay, well, let's close it out.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:45.760
So thank you so much for taking the time um, for coming on the pod, for sharing all of your knowledge.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:50.159
And I have a feeling this episode is going to be quite popular.
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:51.119
Thank you for having me.
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:52.800
It was such a pleasure to talk with you.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:55.360
Of course.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:56.320
Of course.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.119
All right, I'll stop the recording for us so we can keep chit-chatting.
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:09.119
Thank you again, Anujay, for taking the time to sit with me via the internet all the way across the world and have this conversation.
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:16.239
I I know that our listeners just soaked up every single minute of that and learned so much from you.
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:19.519
And everyone who listened, thank you so much for being here.
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:31.360
I mean, I think you could just tell with the just the tone of Anujay's voice and his passion for his craft, just what a kind and generous and sweet soul he is.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:33.920
And gosh, is he just so talented.
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.280
I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does and following his career.
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:42.320
And so towards the end of our conversation, I asked him if he was going to be teaching.
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:50.079
And if you follow him on Instagram, you know that he recently just announced that he would be teaching a class in Mumbai, and that class sold out right away.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.320
And I'm just so excited for you, and UJ.
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:55.280
I can't wait to see everything that you post about it.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:58.719
I can't wait for all of these bakers to come meet you and learn from you.
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:03.920
I I wish I could just transport myself across the world and come to the class and learn from you too.
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:06.480
So again, thank you for joining me.
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:12.639
I think what stayed with me the most from this conversation is how much bread has been shaped by adaptation.
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:23.920
Um, and you know, he didn't have the exact flower or climate or equipment or conditions of the same bakers that he was learning from, but he figured it out and in such a beautiful and inspiring way.
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.559
And I think we can all learn something from this.
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:27.679
I know that we can.
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:37.119
So if you enjoyed this conversation, make sure that you give Anuj a follow on Instagram, Anuj and Star A-N-S-T-A-R.
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:44.079
And I'll be sure to add all of the links or anything that we talked about, including Trevor's book in the show notes.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:59.440
And if you enjoyed this episode, I would I would so appreciate it if you could just send this link to this episode to another friend of yours so they can enjoy it and listen to it too, and then you can talk about it and yeah, just keep keep the love going.
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:05.760
This podcast has been growing and growing and growing, and I'm so excited to be on this journey with all of you.
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:14.079
So again, thank you for being here with me and taking the time to listen and um just for your energy and your love.
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:17.840
And I will see you all next week.
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.280
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.280
Music by Joshua from Dope.
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:41.039
I'm Allie White, and as always, happy baking and long live real bread.