Justice McMillian:
00:00
And so I never thought about being a judge because I thought, well, to be a judge, don't you have to know someone or you have to run for election? Or I really didn't understand that process at all. So I never really thought about becoming a judge until the opportunity presented itself.
Holly Geerdes:
00:14
Welcome to Roll Call, Reflections on Leadership and Legacy. This is the podcast where we sit down with trailblazing Asian American business and community leaders leaders to explore their journeys, challenges, and triumphs. Each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories and experiences that have shaped their path to success, resilience, resilience, and impact. From overcoming adversity to leaving a lasting legacy, we celebrate the diverse voices and powerful leadership that are shaping our communities and our world. I'm your host, Holly Gerdes, and together, we'll hear firsthand accounts of what it truly means to lead with purpose and build a lasting legacy in the Asian American community.
Holly Geerdes:
01:08
Welcome to another episode of Roll Call. Our guest today is the Honorable Justice Carla Wong McMillan. Hello, Justice McMillan. Hello. Thank you for coming today.
Holly Geerdes:
01:21
We are so excited and honored to have you today on our episode. Could you tell our audience some background of your early days and of your family? Everyone's curious about your background and your history.
Justice McMillian:
01:35
Yeah. I was born and raised in Augusta, Georgia, which many people know as the home of the Masters golf tournament. But Augusta is historical in another sense in that it has one of the oldest Chinese communities in the Southeast. Wow. The my family actually came to Augusta over a hundred years ago.
Justice McMillian:
01:58
My grandfather first came to The United States, I think, the early nineteen hundreds. I really don't know. My dad told me he was in San Francisco for the earthquake in 1906. But we do know that he eventually came to Augusta. There was a a Wong cousin who lived there, and he made it to Augusta.
Justice McMillian:
02:20
And then in 1914, he actually went back to China to marry my grandmother. She was from a neighboring village in the southern part of China, Guangzhou Province. And they came back to The United States the following year, stayed in San Francisco for a few months, and then came back to Augusta and started their family. My dad was the youngest of six kids. And my grandparents operated a grocery store in Augusta, just a mom and pop grocery business, which many of the Chinese in Augusta did, because in that time during the in the segregated South, the white grocers were pressured to not serve African American customers.
Justice McMillian:
03:12
So the Chinese established grocery stores in the African American community, and they often lived in the backrooms of those stores. And that's what my family did. And my dad was actually born at home behind the grocery store in Augusta.
Holly Geerdes:
03:32
Now, how did your grandparents pick Augusta?
Justice McMillian:
03:36
Well, I'm not really sure, but I know that in the eighteen seventies, after the civil war, the Augusta Canal was being built, and they needed workers for the canal. And I know that the Chinese first came to Augusta to work on that project.
Holly Geerdes:
03:58
Mhmm.
Justice McMillian:
03:59
And it's my understanding is that most of them came from the Guangzhou Province, and they started telling their friends and family about Augusta, and they started coming over after that.
Holly Geerdes:
04:12
Did your grandparents and parents talk about their experience of growing up in Augusta, how hard it was to, you know, start a business, you know, in The United States, let alone Augusta back then.
Justice McMillian:
04:28
Yeah, I mean, they talked about it some, and I don't know about the how they were able to establish the business, I I think the banks were willing to do business with them versus the some African American customers. And so I I I assume that they got some sort of funding for that. As far as growing up in Augusta, I mean, they did all the things that I think just an average Southern person would do growing up in that time period. I mean, they went to the public schools, they would eat collard greens and other Southern delicacies. I heard about that.
Justice McMillian:
05:20
And they had, you know, they rode their bikes and had their friends and it was just a normal It
Holly Geerdes:
05:28
seems they integrated as fully or as much as they could with American culture and society then.
Justice McMillian:
05:35
I think they did, but they also retain their Chinese culture because there was a Chinese consolidated benevolent association, which was a group that was formed where the Chinese families got together and there was actually a building and they had Chinese school there. They celebrated Chinese holidays there. And so that was really central to that Chinese community. But then apart from that, the Chinese families, they went to church. They went to The churches that were in Augusta primarily during that time was the First Baptist Church because the First Baptist Church actually reached out to the Chinese community and formed a Chinese Sunday school, for instance.
Justice McMillian:
06:23
They were very much integrated in the community, but also had their own community within the CCBA.
Holly Geerdes:
06:29
And what was your Asian American experience growing up in Augusta?
Justice McMillian:
06:34
I grew up in the CCBA, and so most of the people there were relatives. I mean, we it was a very small community, and there were several different families. So I had that experience. But then going to school, I was the only Asian person in my class all the way through growing up. I'd never had another Asian person in my class at school, and there were only a couple of other families within the school as well.
Justice McMillian:
07:09
I went to a private school. I was the only one, but I was just part of the community. That was what I was used to.
Holly Geerdes:
07:15
Yeah, and I was adopted, six, and I was the only Asian American in my school. And for the most part, I had an amazing experience and everyone was kind. And I guess it's a small town thing too, where everybody looked out for each other, you knew everybody. And, but there were, you know, some challenges and stereotypes, you know, younger. Did you face any of those challenges or stereotypes when you were younger?
Justice McMillian:
07:45
You know, I really don't remember facing much. Mean, I think kids sometimes make fun of other kids for other variety of things. I can remember kids talking about, you know, my eyes being slanted and things like that, which is not great, but very few and far between. I can only remember maybe a couple instances of things like that, but you know, kids be will be kids and do things like that. But for the most part, I mean, I had friends and we would spend the night at each other's houses and go do things together.
Justice McMillian:
08:25
So it was a pretty normal childhood.
Holly Geerdes:
08:28
What did you learn from watching your parents when they were raising you, how they lived their life and how they dealt with challenges and obstacles in their life, which every human being faces? But sometimes, you know, being the minority in a town has its own unique challenges. But what did you learn from your mom and dad that you feel like has shaped who you are?
Justice McMillian:
08:55
Yeah, that's a great question. So my dad was born in Augusta, but my mom actually immigrated from Hong Kong. So she had a whole different viewpoint and experience and really didn't speak English all that well. We spoke Chinese at home. I learned Chinese from her primarily because that's what she spoke.
Justice McMillian:
09:21
And she did not have any further education, but she worked really hard. She worked hard in I'm the oldest of five kids, so when we were younger, she was at home with us. But then after that, she went and she got her cosmetology license and started doing hair. And then she also worked at a restaurant and just worked really hard for us. My dad, on the other hand, he actually became very sick when I was gosh, I was like maybe six or seven years He had lung cancer when I was very young and ended up having to retire from his job because of his cancer.
Justice McMillian:
10:06
He survived the lung cancer, which is pretty remarkable, but then he had a number of other health issues throughout my childhood. It ended up he passed from cancer when I was 16. So I learned from him just how to keep going, even though, I mean, he was facing a lot of challenges with his health and, you know, being a father for five kids and also facing the cancer and he had a heart attack and he had, you know, there were all sorts of challenges that he had that he had to overcome.
Holly Geerdes:
10:46
And wow, your mother then had to take over the family then.
Justice McMillian:
10:50
Yes. Wow. And she had to work outside of the home. And when I was little, she didn't know how to drive. She had to learn how to drive her car.
Justice McMillian:
11:00
I remember her learning how to drive her car. Then she was very little. She was like maybe four feet eight, I think. Wow. Small.
Justice McMillian:
11:11
But learn how to drive these big cars and drive the family around.
Holly Geerdes:
11:15
Wow. So do you think you got the toughness and resilience and whatever from your mom when you saw her having to step up and take care of all the family by herself?
Justice McMillian:
11:26
I think both of them are pretty tough. Yeah. My dad actually, he went to the Citadel for college. Wow. I mean, and had a very that made him a very strong person having to go through that.
Justice McMillian:
11:43
And he served in the military for a few years before he was honorably discharged and came home to work in the family store. And then he became a he was a chemist, he worked in the lab at the Medical College of Georgia before he had to retire. But he was a very tough person as well.
Holly Geerdes:
12:06
You know, other than your mom and dad, do you have a mentor that you feel like, you know, impacted you the most in who you are today?
Justice McMillian:
12:17
Yeah. I mean, I have had a number of mentors over the years, people I've looked up to. I think when I was younger, my aunt Margaret was someone I looked up to. She was one of my father's sisters. And she went to college and went through an accelerated program because it was during World War II and then ended up going to the Medical College of Georgia and became a medical doctor and was the first Asian American woman to get an M.
Justice McMillian:
12:54
D. In the Southeast.
Holly Geerdes:
12:55
Oh, wow.
Justice McMillian:
12:56
So she she graduated in the nineteen forties Wow. From the Medical College of Georgia. And so she was a big influence on me growing up. I mean, she was a first Mhmm. As well.
Justice McMillian:
13:09
But then later on, one of my other mentors is I worked for Judge O'Kelly in the Northern District Of Georgia, right out of law school for a year, and he was a huge mentor in my life. I started my career with him and every step of the way up until this past last position, he was always advising me, encouraging me. He was always the first person I called when I was making changes in my career. He passed in, I think it was 2017, but, I mean, he was a huge influence in my path to the bench.
Holly Geerdes:
13:53
Why did you choose the law as your career?
Justice McMillian:
13:57
Well, actually, had did not intend to be a lawyer when I went to college. I was very interested in history and economics and thought that I was going to become a high school history teacher. I had planned to go get my teaching Master's of Arts in Teaching when I came home one summer and ran into my speech and debate coach from high school, and he asked me what I wanted to do. And I told him, and he said, You really should think about law school.
Holly Geerdes:
14:30
You never thought about that until then?
Justice McMillian:
14:32
Not really. Not seriously. I had never I had not thought about it until then. And I started thinking about it and decided I I was gonna go to graduate school. So either I was going to take the GRE and go to graduate school, or I would take the LSAT and go to law school.
Justice McMillian:
14:53
And then decided to go to law school.
Holly Geerdes:
14:55
And what was the ultimate reason or factor that made you choose that instead of?
Justice McMillian:
15:00
You know, it was, I was thinking about trying to get a PhD in history or at least a master's degree in in history. And one of the requirements for that is you have to learn another language. And I thought, do I really wanna do that? And so I decided to go to law school. I didn't have to learn another language to go to law school.
Holly Geerdes:
15:20
Okay. And after law school then, where did you end up?
Justice McMillian:
15:25
So I worked for Judge O'Kelly for a year in Atlanta, and then I was with the law firm Sutherland Asbo and Brennan, which is now Evershed Sutherland. But back then it was Sutherland, Asbo and Brennan, one of the larger firms here in Atlanta.
Holly Geerdes:
15:41
And did you face any challenges and obstacles in your legal career that, you know, we look back on those and now we're grateful for them, but at the time it's difficult to get through. But did you face any challenges that you feel like, you know, shaped who you are again, that you are today?
Justice McMillian:
15:58
Yeah, I mean, I think working in a fast paced, big firm environment is challenging for anyone. And so, you know, when you're a younger younger associate, you work a lot of hours, work really hard to learn your craft. But I was lucky, the firm gave me a lot of responsibility early on. So I was taking depositions, going to court, that type of thing, which was very, very helpful. I worked on some appeals, which is very helpful for my current position.
Justice McMillian:
16:35
And
Holly Geerdes:
16:37
what advice would you give for new attorneys that are going into law firms that, you know, to move on up and to get in more leadership and getting, you know, on cases and being able to really be in the partnership track that, you know, sometimes I think, especially for any minority group, they feel like it's slower or they have disadvantages. And the other side is use who you are as an advantage. I don't know what goes into the partnership track, I'm not in the law firm field, but what advice would you give in particular to Asian Americans that look at Justice McMillan and go, wow, how did that happen? How can I make that happen for me?
Justice McMillian:
17:30
Yeah. I mean, I think and I'm gonna speak to this current generation because things are so different now than when I first started. I think for this generation, I would encourage people to go to the office Mhmm.
Holly Geerdes:
17:45
Yes. And
Justice McMillian:
17:45
work, because you make a lot of relationships that way. You get a lot of good work that way because the partner sees you in the hall or or you're available to help with a project. And that's not necessarily the case if you're working from home. And so I would encourage young people to to come into the office, to make those connections, to build those relationships with their partners, to build those relationships with their clients, and to also build relationships with other lawyers because that's where you get your a lot of your business from referrals. And so be involved with the legal community, whether it's through the State Bar of Georgia or other organizations like GAPABA, which has been a great resource for me and Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
18:34
Other Asian American and non Asian American lawyers. We GAPABA has members from, you know, from everywhere. So I would encourage people to just get involved and establish their networks and work really hard.
Holly Geerdes:
18:52
And GAPABA, which is a Georgia Asian Pacific American bar association, I think it has over seven fifty members now.
Justice McMillian:
19:01
Yes, it's amazing how many members we So,
Holly Geerdes:
19:05
how do you feel about, you know, GAPABA and its role in helping Asian American lawyers? Because when we were younger, we didn't have those types of organizations. I mean, they may have existed, but they were very small. But to have, like, organizations like APABA, to be able to network with other Asian American lawyers who are successful and doing what you are recommending, get out there networking, how important do you think that is to keep that going, to keep it growing for this upcoming generation that is more isolated, they like to be alone more, they're at home more, and, you know, how important do you feel like a Papa is in that role of helping this younger generation in their evolution of the you know, their legal career in general?
Justice McMillian:
19:52
Yeah. I think APABA is really important for young Asian American lawyers because it provides a resource for them from law students to more senior lawyers. KAPABA has a young lawyers and law students division. They have a lot of great events where you get to meet other young people, and then they also try to introduce you to some more senior lawyers. And they have other programming as well where you our gala where you you meet lawyers not just from GAPABA, but from the national organization.
Justice McMillian:
20:32
Members come from out of town to just to go to the gala, and you get to meet judges and general counsels and other people that you normally wouldn't be able to meet. And so I think APABA is really important in terms of bringing people together.
Holly Geerdes:
20:48
How do you feel like your Asian American background and the culture that you were raised in, was there anything that you feel like helped shape your success, that part of your culture and your history from your family? How do you feel like that shaped or, you know, got you to where you are today as this justice McMillan on a personal and, obviously, the professional level?
Justice McMillian:
21:16
Yeah. I mean, I think being the only Asian American in your class or your school, I think I just learned how to stand out because I mean, I I think being an Asian American has its advantages and disadvantages. I think an advantage is people remember you because you're the only one. Yeah. I mean, I can go back to my, you know, law school, and I went to University of Georgia, and professors will remember me.
Justice McMillian:
21:47
And my husband actually also went to law school there too, but the professors aren't gonna remember him as well because I was the only Asian person in my class, so it's easier to remember me. But I think that I did have to I I felt like I had to work harder to prove myself because there weren't many Asian Americans, especially in litigation.
Holly Geerdes:
22:12
Most
Justice McMillian:
22:13
of the Asian American lawyers I know are in IP or maybe corporate. And and I think more recently, there's been more Asian American litigators, but I certainly didn't know a lot of Asian American litigators when I was a young lawyer.
Holly Geerdes:
22:31
And did you have to overcome this? And this is stereotype, whether it's true or not, of Asian American lawyers being more quiet, non confrontational, and just work hard. Right? Other than that, I don't know, did you face any of those stereotypes that whether they're true or not, did you face that in your legal career?
Justice McMillian:
22:54
I think people probably assumed that I would be, I was quiet because of my Asian face. Yep. But I just had to prove that, you know, I had a voice and I could speak up and I knew what I was doing and I was prepared. And so yeah. Sure.
Justice McMillian:
23:12
I I think I had to overcome that.
Holly Geerdes:
23:15
You know, being at the forefront and, being a trailblazer where a lot of the Asian Americans are looking at you, how do you and looking towards mentorship, you know, not directly, but they're watching you. How do you feel like the Asian American, lawyers have evolved? You know, seeing how they've evolved over time, do you feel like there is a positive evolution of Asian American lawyers, in part to KAPABA too, but in what they're doing? Have you seen or do you believe that we are moving on up into the partnership track, the CEOs in the corporate? Do you see that?
Holly Geerdes:
24:01
And do you do you feel like we're moving in a positive direction and moving faster towards those leadership roles?
Justice McMillian:
24:10
Yeah. I think so. And I think that and I can only speak to the South because, I mean, I think things are very different, say, in California or maybe Hawaii where there's a very, very large Asian American population. So I can't speak to that. But I think in the South where there's just not as many Asian Americans generally, that having Asian Americans in leadership roles encourages the next generation, I hope, to aspire to that as well.
Holly Geerdes:
24:42
Yeah. And, you know, there are many AAPI organizations, and a lot of them are dying a little bit with the older generation retiring. How important do you feel like it is to have these different AAPI organizations to continue with the younger generation, which it's getting harder to recruit younger generation because they don't know the history of a lot of these leaders in these AAPI organizations, and they're not, you know, talking about their history. But it is getting harder to recruit the younger generation into these AAPI to advocate for Asian Americans to be there when people Asian Americans need help in the community. So, the community wise is not as strong with the younger generation.
Holly Geerdes:
25:35
And so, what do you feel about that and how important do you think it is to try to continue the AAPI organization with the younger generation, even though it's getting harder for them to participate?
Justice McMillian:
25:47
Yeah. I mean, maybe things just need to evolve. I'm I'm not really sure because, I mean, I I face the same thing. I have two children. One's 17, one's 21.
Justice McMillian:
25:56
And to be candid, I don't think they're interested in joining an organization of Chinese Americans or things,
Holly Geerdes:
26:02
you know,
Justice McMillian:
26:02
they that they probably see that as an organization for people of my generation. Yeah. Exactly. They they aren't that interested in it. But maybe there are other organizations that they may be interested in.
Justice McMillian:
26:17
I I know, for instance, my alma mater, Duke University, just within the past several years, formed the Duke Asian Alliance, which is an alumni association for Asian Americans for the first time ever. Yeah. And maybe it's those kinds of organizations that will will take the lead in encouraging other Asian American leaders in the future. Maybe these other organizations can partner with these these newer organizations. And
Holly Geerdes:
26:48
how do you, maintain or balance the Asian American culture with the American culture in your family?
Justice McMillian:
26:56
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little bit easier with my mother who has since passed, but when my kids were smaller, we'd always go home for Christmas and Thanksgiving, and we would celebrate holidays with with my family. But my mom would always cook Chinese food. And she would speak Chinese to them. But she grew up in Hong Kong, so she was much more familiar with that culture.
Justice McMillian:
27:26
I mean, I grew up here I grew up in Augusta. I mean, I really don't have much experience with Chinese culture. And my kids are generally interested in Chinese culture. I mean, I they actually both of them took Mandarin Chinese in high school. Even though my family speaks Cantonese, but they wanted to take Chinese.
Justice McMillian:
27:52
So they they're they're learning about Chinese language and culture through their through the Mandarin classes. And so and then recently, my son, he's he's a junior at Kennesaw State University. He's taking a class on I think it's like a documentary film class or something like that where he has to do a project on a civil justice issue. And he is he came up with several Asian American topics that he wanted to explore because he's interested in that. So, I mean, I think that I've developed an interest in learning about their culture and background.
Justice McMillian:
28:30
And now that they're growing up a little bit, they seem to be wanting to explore that.
Holly Geerdes:
28:36
Wonderful. On the court of appeals and your vast trajectory to the Supreme Court, what has been your experience and what are you most proud of? And maybe what has been the most challenging, being on the bench on the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court?
Justice McMillian:
28:57
Yeah. I mean, it's just been an honor to be on the state appellate court, whether it's the Court of Appeals and or the Supreme Court. I mean, I was appointed to the Court of Appeals in 2013. Prior to that, I was the state court judge, tall court judge, in Fayette County. And, when I was appointed to the Court of Appeals, I can remember driving into Atlanta, seeing the skylight, and just being so honored to be able to to serve the state of Georgia in that way and to uphold the rule of law, to uphold the independence of the judiciary.
Justice McMillian:
29:36
And I think that is the biggest challenge these days now with the attacks on the judiciary and questioning of the rule of law that it's incumbent on judges and lawyers to educate the public about how important it is that we uphold the rule of law, that that we decide cases not based on fear or favor or affection for one side or the other or bias. We decide it based on the law. And so, I hope that would be my legacy
Holly Geerdes:
30:07
Mhmm. To the courts. And the being on the bench, do you see, based on the population of Asian Americans, the lawyers, in turn, reflecting that diversity and population to represent them? How do you see the evolution of the diversity in the court system now, from the time that you were a state court judge to Court of Appeals to the Supreme Court? Do you see that improving?
Holly Geerdes:
30:35
Because here you have a lot of minorities in the court system, even in Gwinnett, if you go there, it's a lot of Koreans and Asian Americans, the lawyers still the disparity is huge. And we have one Judge Alvin Wong in the state court. You know, what do you see and how do you see this evolving over time?
Justice McMillian:
30:57
Yeah. I mean, I still think that Asian Americans don't necessarily go into litigation versus Yeah. Other areas of the law. And so, of course, you know, you're not if Asian Americans aren't going to litigation, you're not gonna see them in court. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
31:12
I did see more Asian American lawyers, when I was in the trial court bench, not so much on the, court of appeals or the Supreme Court because the the the lawyers who tend to do appellate work, they're very specialized. Yeah. And maybe just a few Asian American lawyers I know who've done appeals. But, for the most part, I I I have not seen many, Asian American appellate lawyers, but I'd love to see them.
Holly Geerdes:
31:42
Yeah. By the way, did you imagine of being a judge before you even got appointed or asked to be? Did you ever imagine that you would or you wanted to be a judge?
Justice McMillian:
31:56
No. I actually I never thought about being a judge. I was the first lawyer in my family and really didn't know much about the legal system or, you know, what lawyers did. And and I just kind of I went to law school, and then I I did what the law school told me to do, which is drop resumes at, you know, at at big law firms and then try to get a clerkship because if you wanna go to litigation, you should get a clerkship. And so I just did everything they told me to do.
Justice McMillian:
32:30
And so I never thought about being a judge because I thought, well, to be a judge, don't you have to know someone or you have to run for election? Or I really didn't understand that process at all. So I never really thought about becoming a judge until the opportunity presented itself.
Holly Geerdes:
32:44
So can you, describe the process and the experience of running for a state court position judge?
Justice McMillian:
32:52
So I originally was appointed to my, state court, position. And here in Georgia, the judges, run for election. But if there's a vacancy between elections, then the governor appoints. And so that's how I got my position in state court in Fayette County. But then after the appointment, the judge has to run for election to keep his or her seat.
Justice McMillian:
33:19
And so that was one of the reasons, frankly, I initially did not want to apply for the position of trial court judge in in my home circuit because I knew that I had to run for election to keep my seat, and that wasn't something that I was really interested in doing. But what changed my mind were my two kids at the time. They were little. They were four and eight or three and seven, very, very young. And I especially for my daughter, I wanted to be able to show her the importance of stepping out of my comfort zone and taking a a risk and serving the community where she would be growing up.
Justice McMillian:
34:01
And so so that's when I put in for state court was superior court at the time, and I got appointed to state court. That was in 2010. Soon after that, my my worries came to fruition and that I did get a challenger for my first election, which was 2012. I had to campaign for about a year, and it was difficult because if you've ever been to Fayette County, there's maybe 4% or fewer Asian Americans. There's not an Asian American population I could rely on, and so I had to just go out and introduce myself to the community.
Justice McMillian:
34:41
Of course, I had lived there for many years, and so I had had a lot of friends in the churches and the schools and the area and and that sort of thing and do my community work, but still had to go out and present myself. And, you know, the voters in Fayette County, they accepted me, and they elected me by overwhelming majority. And it was never about me being Asian Yeah. American or being a woman, even though I was the first woman to be a state or superior court judge in that circuit. Like, they had not run.
Holly Geerdes:
35:15
The first of minis.
Justice McMillian:
35:16
Yeah. And and so I was different from any other previous judges that had run. I presented myself as someone who would work hard to and who would uphold the rule of law, who would decide cases based on the law and not based on any biases, and the voters elected me based on that.
Holly Geerdes:
35:37
When you were campaigning, what did you learn about yourself? Because that you know, running a contested race is, yeah, a marathon and whatever you went through when you won overwhelmingly. Did you learn anything about yourself campaigning?
Justice McMillian:
35:53
Yeah. I mean, campaigning gives you a lot of fortitude because you have to put yourself out there and be able to introduce yourself to a group of people. And sometimes you go to these events and they say, okay. You have three minutes. You have five minutes.
Justice McMillian:
36:08
Oh, wow. You know, seven minutes to talk about yourself and what you stand for. And as a judge, of course, you can't take any positions on cases or issues that that are pending before the court. So as in a judicial race when you're campaigning, you're really campaigning on who I am as a person, you know, whether I'm the type of person you want as a judge because I can't campaign on issues. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
36:33
And so you have to be able to introduce yourself to people and, you know, take stock of, you know, what do you believe in and and be able to present that to folks. And, also, campaigning is hard because you never know where you're standing in any one particular moment. It's not like a, you know, a small race. You're not gonna have polling or
Holly Geerdes:
36:53
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
36:53
Anything like that where you can tell whether you're are you are you winning? Are you losing? You don't know until election day happens, and you you look at the vote totals at the end of the day. So it's, you know, a lot of uncertainty related to that, and all you can know is whether you're working hard. And so I tried to make it a point every day to do something related to the campaign.
Justice McMillian:
37:18
If it wasn't an event, I was writing notes. I was making calls. You know? It was just I knew I I was gonna work hard to keep my seat, and, you know, I put the work in and ended up winning that race.
Holly Geerdes:
37:30
And anybody that, you know, wants to run a campaign for whatever physician or judge, what advice would you give them?
Justice McMillian:
37:38
Well, I would encourage them to get a lot of support and help because as lawyers, you're not trained on running a campaign. And so there are professionals out there who were able to help craft the campaign and and and all of that. So I would encourage you to to do that. But then other than that, just you have to work at it. One of the best pieces of advice that I got from it was a congressman at the time.
Justice McMillian:
38:07
He said, you know, you just you have to go ask people for the vote.
Holly Geerdes:
38:11
Just ask.
Justice McMillian:
38:12
Just ask. I mean, people vote for candidates who ask for their vote, who listen to them, who go who take the time to talk to people. So I I went and asked people to
Holly Geerdes:
38:24
vote for me. And, you know, when people talk about you, Justice McMillan, it's always about sincerity. They always see that about you, that you're so sincere about who you are, and you're very intentional. And, you know, I think that's, in my opinion, and I think everybody's opinion that gets to know you, that that's what comes across and why you overwhelmingly won your election is people are looking for sincerity. They're looking for transparency of who you are, and we're in a generation now where, you know, we seem transparent about everything, but it's not really who they are, and we hide behind whatever.
Holly Geerdes:
39:08
But my experience from talking to everybody about you is that's the one thing that always comes across, is that you are absolutely sincere about who you are and what you are passionate about, and you love people. And that's I wanted to say that to you because that's why people always wanna know who you are, know how you got here, and they admire, you know, everything that you've done, absolute first of minis. And the other thing that I want to touch upon, the judiciary, is the mental health. I come from a generation of lawyers, and I think you do too, where that was never mentioned. You never talked about it.
Holly Geerdes:
39:52
And the legal profession, people don't realize how hard it is if you are very conscious and diligent and hardworking about your legal career and when you're representing clients, and that bleeds into your home. And so, you know, how do you feel like now that we talk about it and it's not something that we just hide behind and just put it away while we keep working until we break down? And so, on the judiciary and the experience that you've had, how do you feel about, you know, now being more transparent and also the state bar, you know, helping out more about your mental health? And if you don't take care of that, you are not being the best lawyer that you can be for your clients.
Justice McMillian:
40:41
Yeah. Well, first of all, I appreciate your comments about my sincerity because, I mean, I still feel like I'm that little girl who just grew up in that, you know, a little Asian family in Augusta, And, you know, I'm I am honored to be in the place where I am, and I never wanna change from from that. As far as mental health, I think it's great that we are having conversations now about mental health, that the state bar has programming to support lawyers' mental health. They have a the use your six program, which all lawyers in Georgia have six calls that they can make, appointments that they can make with a therapist or other person they can talk to if they are facing any issues. As for me, what keeps me sane, I think, is my first of all, my family and my faith.
Justice McMillian:
41:36
Mhmm. And I think that's important for all lawyers no matter how what you believe to to have a life outside of the law because the law can consume you. Mhmm. Your clients can consume you. You the work can consume you.
Justice McMillian:
41:51
But I've spent a lot of time, you know, raising my kids and really enjoyed when they were younger, and now they're getting older, and they're, like, doing their own things now. And my church as well, my church family. I've been I've been in in the same church for over twenty five years now, and it's, you know, home away from home. And I have my friends there who don't know me as a judge. I mean, know I am a judge, but they don't know me as a judge.
Justice McMillian:
42:20
They're just friends. And when
Holly Geerdes:
42:22
you talk about faith and, you know, your philosophy in life, what do you feel like or convey to our audience, what your philosophy and faith, how that has shaped who you are, and if you can give any guidance on those that are, you know, they don't have that faith or that philosophy to guide them, because I believe you have to have something you believe in, morally, you know, just some compass to give you something that you can believe in that will make you a better human being. And so, you know, what has been your foundation for being what people consider just a great human being, you know, let alone being Justice McMillan, but being a great human being, what has been the foundation for you that carries you every day when you're on the bench, when you're at home, when you're exhausted, when you have challenges? What is that that makes you get through the day?
Justice McMillian:
43:22
Yeah, I mean, I think my faith keeps me grounded. And for me, I mean, it's it's knowing what's right and what's wrong. And by the way, I don't judge cases based on that. I know a lot a lot of people have that misconception that judges decide cases based on what they feel like. But if you're a a good judge, a lot of times you're making decisions based on the law, even though personally you might not want to make that decision.
Justice McMillian:
43:53
But you're following the law. So I just wanna make that clear that although my faith is important to me, I don't use it to to decide cases. Yeah. But it is import my my faith is important to keep me grounded because I know what my worth is because of my faith. I know how to conduct myself because of my faith.
Justice McMillian:
44:14
I mean, I know how to treat other people because of my faith. And so I think a lot of, you know, how I interact with people is based on my faith because I believe everyone is worthy of being respected. And and so that's how I'd like to treat other people. What
Holly Geerdes:
44:36
are your three favorite books?
Justice McMillian:
44:38
Oh, my three favorite books? I guess I'll make a plug. Some of my more recent favorite books, my husband's actually an author.
Holly Geerdes:
44:48
Oh, really?
Justice McMillian:
44:49
He's a lawyer. He's a law professor at John Marshall Law School. But in his spare time, he also writes legal thrillers. Oh, really? So would be I I would not be a good wife if I didn't say that his books are some of my favorite, and they are some of my favorite books.
Holly Geerdes:
45:07
I did not know that.
Justice McMillian:
45:08
Yes. So so he has this he's written five books. He's working on a six, and it's a series. It's a, like I said, legal thriller, and a lot of the stories are based on some of our experiences. So for instance, he has one where he murders the chief justice of the Georgia Supreme Court in this building where we're sitting.
Justice McMillian:
45:33
Or he he has a he's murd That's very close
Holly Geerdes:
45:35
to me.
Justice McMillian:
45:36
It's very close, and he's he's he's he's killed off, president of the State Bar of Georgia at the annual meeting. You know, things and and so those for me are are books I enjoy reading because they take me away from the really serious work that that we do. They're they're more, you know, enjoyable reading.
Holly Geerdes:
45:59
And on your spouse, on that topic, how do you feel like a role has your spouse been in your career and your personal life that's impacted who you are in your success? You know, I always believe the family that plays together, whether it's work or not, they stay together. And behind every successful person is usually a spouse behind the scenes. And so what role has your husband played in your success?
Justice McMillian:
46:30
I think we've done a lot to support each other in our success in our, you know, each of our careers. And, you know, a lot of times people talk about, you know, how do you balance, you know, work life balance and and that sort of thing. And what I like to tell young lawyers is that sometimes your life is unbalanced Yep. At any particular time. You're going to if you're taking a case to trial, your life during that period of time is going to be unbalanced.
Justice McMillian:
47:00
Can't help it.
Holly Geerdes:
47:01
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:02
But it's great to have a spouse who can help pick up the pieces
Holly Geerdes:
47:06
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:07
And keep things going. And I do the same for him as well. And so, you know, I think we wouldn't each be in the places where we are without the support of the other person.
Holly Geerdes:
47:20
And, you know, for anybody that, I would love to see a judiciary that has more Asian Americans, what advice would you give for anybody that wants to be a judge?
Justice McMillian:
47:31
Yeah. And first of all, I mean, it's really hard to predict that. Right? Because a lot of a lot of time times, it's based on, you know, circumstances. Like, I never thought I would be a judge, and it just happened that two out of the four superior court judges in my circuit resigned, and they were looking for new judges at that that time.
Justice McMillian:
47:50
I mean, you can't predict that that is going to happen. You have to be in a lot of times, it has to be in the right place at the right time.
Holly Geerdes:
47:58
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:59
But what I tell young lawyers is that, you can make sure that if that time comes, you're prepared. So you need to be the best lawyer that you can possibly be to network. And sometimes I tell young lawyers, especially young, Asian American lawyers that sometimes it's bet better to be a big fish in a small pond Mhmm. And not live in Atlanta. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
48:26
Right? Because there's so many there's so many lawyers in Atlanta that it's very competitive to become a judge in Atlanta versus if you were in a rural county where the bar is very small. Yeah. You can become a very successful lawyer and well known lawyer within that town and become a judge there. But it is, I mean, it's difficult.
Justice McMillian:
48:49
You you may be the only Asian person
Holly Geerdes:
48:52
in your your own town. Stand
Justice McMillian:
48:53
out. Right. But you can stand out.
Holly Geerdes:
48:55
Can you give us, like, the top three reasons that if you can think of made you successful. Just top three, generally, if you can come up with. And there are many reasons, obviously, and many people behind your success, but if you could just name top three reasons or top three people that you feel like in the moment that made you successful.
Justice McMillian:
49:25
Well, first of all, my family, my parents, my aunts and uncles. I think I wouldn't be here without their help and support. As I said, I had to my father passed away when I was 16. My mother didn't go to college, so I had to had to lean on their support and also my own work ethic to get myself through college and then law school. And so I wouldn't be here without them.
Justice McMillian:
49:55
Mhmm. I think another huge factor in my success is and I'll credit the University of Georgia School of Law because I ended up going there on a full scholarship. I don't know how else I would have paid for law school, but I I got a full scholarship, got a great education. And I don't think I would be a judge here in Georgia, except that I went to University of Georgia School of Law, and and the only reason I I went there was because of the scholarship that I got. And then finally, I guess I would say Judge O'Kelly again, because he was just been such he was such a great mentor throughout my legal career, especially as a young lawyer when I was trying to decide what firm to go to.
Justice McMillian:
50:46
And then when I was applying for my first judgeship, he gave me so much great advice, and I I was able to emulate him on the bench. He was a great judge. Not only did he know the law, but he just he was so professional. And that's the kind of judge I wanted to emulate on the That
Holly Geerdes:
51:06
was one that you could look at towards and say, this is how I wanna be as a judge. Yes. What a great lesson. Justice McMillan, and I know you may have already said this, but I'd like to ask again, how do you wanna be remembered personally and as the Supreme Court justice?
Justice McMillian:
51:24
Well, I think personally, I don't I don't know. I I just wanna be remembered as mother of James and Emily. Mhmm. That they're, you know, great. They end up being great adults, great people.
Justice McMillian:
51:42
That's what's really important to me in my personal life. As far as a legacy as a Supreme Court Justice, I just hope people remember me as a justice who upholds the rule of law, like I said before. That is so important to the confidence of the judicial system, the public's confidence in the judicial system, that they know that judges, we're here to apply the law as it's written, that we're not here to, decide cases based on what we feel like or who the parties are. And I think that is very, very important, and I hope that that's gonna be the legacy that I leave for the Georgia court court of appeals and Georgia supreme court.
Holly Geerdes:
52:30
Well, thank you, justice McMillan. This was an honor, and it was fascinating. And I hope we can have you again when maybe you're the US Supreme Court Justice.
Justice McMillian:
52:38
Well, we'll see about that.
Holly Geerdes:
52:40
I don't know. You.
00:00
And so I never thought about being a judge because I thought, well, to be a judge, don't you have to know someone or you have to run for election? Or I really didn't understand that process at all. So I never really thought about becoming a judge until the opportunity presented itself.
Holly Geerdes:
00:14
Welcome to Roll Call, Reflections on Leadership and Legacy. This is the podcast where we sit down with trailblazing Asian American business and community leaders leaders to explore their journeys, challenges, and triumphs. Each episode, we dive deep into the personal stories and experiences that have shaped their path to success, resilience, resilience, and impact. From overcoming adversity to leaving a lasting legacy, we celebrate the diverse voices and powerful leadership that are shaping our communities and our world. I'm your host, Holly Gerdes, and together, we'll hear firsthand accounts of what it truly means to lead with purpose and build a lasting legacy in the Asian American community.
Holly Geerdes:
01:08
Welcome to another episode of Roll Call. Our guest today is the Honorable Justice Carla Wong McMillan. Hello, Justice McMillan. Hello. Thank you for coming today.
Holly Geerdes:
01:21
We are so excited and honored to have you today on our episode. Could you tell our audience some background of your early days and of your family? Everyone's curious about your background and your history.
Justice McMillian:
01:35
Yeah. I was born and raised in Augusta, Georgia, which many people know as the home of the Masters golf tournament. But Augusta is historical in another sense in that it has one of the oldest Chinese communities in the Southeast. Wow. The my family actually came to Augusta over a hundred years ago.
Justice McMillian:
01:58
My grandfather first came to The United States, I think, the early nineteen hundreds. I really don't know. My dad told me he was in San Francisco for the earthquake in 1906. But we do know that he eventually came to Augusta. There was a a Wong cousin who lived there, and he made it to Augusta.
Justice McMillian:
02:20
And then in 1914, he actually went back to China to marry my grandmother. She was from a neighboring village in the southern part of China, Guangzhou Province. And they came back to The United States the following year, stayed in San Francisco for a few months, and then came back to Augusta and started their family. My dad was the youngest of six kids. And my grandparents operated a grocery store in Augusta, just a mom and pop grocery business, which many of the Chinese in Augusta did, because in that time during the in the segregated South, the white grocers were pressured to not serve African American customers.
Justice McMillian:
03:12
So the Chinese established grocery stores in the African American community, and they often lived in the backrooms of those stores. And that's what my family did. And my dad was actually born at home behind the grocery store in Augusta.
Holly Geerdes:
03:32
Now, how did your grandparents pick Augusta?
Justice McMillian:
03:36
Well, I'm not really sure, but I know that in the eighteen seventies, after the civil war, the Augusta Canal was being built, and they needed workers for the canal. And I know that the Chinese first came to Augusta to work on that project.
Holly Geerdes:
03:58
Mhmm.
Justice McMillian:
03:59
And it's my understanding is that most of them came from the Guangzhou Province, and they started telling their friends and family about Augusta, and they started coming over after that.
Holly Geerdes:
04:12
Did your grandparents and parents talk about their experience of growing up in Augusta, how hard it was to, you know, start a business, you know, in The United States, let alone Augusta back then.
Justice McMillian:
04:28
Yeah, I mean, they talked about it some, and I don't know about the how they were able to establish the business, I I think the banks were willing to do business with them versus the some African American customers. And so I I I assume that they got some sort of funding for that. As far as growing up in Augusta, I mean, they did all the things that I think just an average Southern person would do growing up in that time period. I mean, they went to the public schools, they would eat collard greens and other Southern delicacies. I heard about that.
Justice McMillian:
05:20
And they had, you know, they rode their bikes and had their friends and it was just a normal It
Holly Geerdes:
05:28
seems they integrated as fully or as much as they could with American culture and society then.
Justice McMillian:
05:35
I think they did, but they also retain their Chinese culture because there was a Chinese consolidated benevolent association, which was a group that was formed where the Chinese families got together and there was actually a building and they had Chinese school there. They celebrated Chinese holidays there. And so that was really central to that Chinese community. But then apart from that, the Chinese families, they went to church. They went to The churches that were in Augusta primarily during that time was the First Baptist Church because the First Baptist Church actually reached out to the Chinese community and formed a Chinese Sunday school, for instance.
Justice McMillian:
06:23
They were very much integrated in the community, but also had their own community within the CCBA.
Holly Geerdes:
06:29
And what was your Asian American experience growing up in Augusta?
Justice McMillian:
06:34
I grew up in the CCBA, and so most of the people there were relatives. I mean, we it was a very small community, and there were several different families. So I had that experience. But then going to school, I was the only Asian person in my class all the way through growing up. I'd never had another Asian person in my class at school, and there were only a couple of other families within the school as well.
Justice McMillian:
07:09
I went to a private school. I was the only one, but I was just part of the community. That was what I was used to.
Holly Geerdes:
07:15
Yeah, and I was adopted, six, and I was the only Asian American in my school. And for the most part, I had an amazing experience and everyone was kind. And I guess it's a small town thing too, where everybody looked out for each other, you knew everybody. And, but there were, you know, some challenges and stereotypes, you know, younger. Did you face any of those challenges or stereotypes when you were younger?
Justice McMillian:
07:45
You know, I really don't remember facing much. Mean, I think kids sometimes make fun of other kids for other variety of things. I can remember kids talking about, you know, my eyes being slanted and things like that, which is not great, but very few and far between. I can only remember maybe a couple instances of things like that, but you know, kids be will be kids and do things like that. But for the most part, I mean, I had friends and we would spend the night at each other's houses and go do things together.
Justice McMillian:
08:25
So it was a pretty normal childhood.
Holly Geerdes:
08:28
What did you learn from watching your parents when they were raising you, how they lived their life and how they dealt with challenges and obstacles in their life, which every human being faces? But sometimes, you know, being the minority in a town has its own unique challenges. But what did you learn from your mom and dad that you feel like has shaped who you are?
Justice McMillian:
08:55
Yeah, that's a great question. So my dad was born in Augusta, but my mom actually immigrated from Hong Kong. So she had a whole different viewpoint and experience and really didn't speak English all that well. We spoke Chinese at home. I learned Chinese from her primarily because that's what she spoke.
Justice McMillian:
09:21
And she did not have any further education, but she worked really hard. She worked hard in I'm the oldest of five kids, so when we were younger, she was at home with us. But then after that, she went and she got her cosmetology license and started doing hair. And then she also worked at a restaurant and just worked really hard for us. My dad, on the other hand, he actually became very sick when I was gosh, I was like maybe six or seven years He had lung cancer when I was very young and ended up having to retire from his job because of his cancer.
Justice McMillian:
10:06
He survived the lung cancer, which is pretty remarkable, but then he had a number of other health issues throughout my childhood. It ended up he passed from cancer when I was 16. So I learned from him just how to keep going, even though, I mean, he was facing a lot of challenges with his health and, you know, being a father for five kids and also facing the cancer and he had a heart attack and he had, you know, there were all sorts of challenges that he had that he had to overcome.
Holly Geerdes:
10:46
And wow, your mother then had to take over the family then.
Justice McMillian:
10:50
Yes. Wow. And she had to work outside of the home. And when I was little, she didn't know how to drive. She had to learn how to drive her car.
Justice McMillian:
11:00
I remember her learning how to drive her car. Then she was very little. She was like maybe four feet eight, I think. Wow. Small.
Justice McMillian:
11:11
But learn how to drive these big cars and drive the family around.
Holly Geerdes:
11:15
Wow. So do you think you got the toughness and resilience and whatever from your mom when you saw her having to step up and take care of all the family by herself?
Justice McMillian:
11:26
I think both of them are pretty tough. Yeah. My dad actually, he went to the Citadel for college. Wow. I mean, and had a very that made him a very strong person having to go through that.
Justice McMillian:
11:43
And he served in the military for a few years before he was honorably discharged and came home to work in the family store. And then he became a he was a chemist, he worked in the lab at the Medical College of Georgia before he had to retire. But he was a very tough person as well.
Holly Geerdes:
12:06
You know, other than your mom and dad, do you have a mentor that you feel like, you know, impacted you the most in who you are today?
Justice McMillian:
12:17
Yeah. I mean, I have had a number of mentors over the years, people I've looked up to. I think when I was younger, my aunt Margaret was someone I looked up to. She was one of my father's sisters. And she went to college and went through an accelerated program because it was during World War II and then ended up going to the Medical College of Georgia and became a medical doctor and was the first Asian American woman to get an M.
Justice McMillian:
12:54
D. In the Southeast.
Holly Geerdes:
12:55
Oh, wow.
Justice McMillian:
12:56
So she she graduated in the nineteen forties Wow. From the Medical College of Georgia. And so she was a big influence on me growing up. I mean, she was a first Mhmm. As well.
Justice McMillian:
13:09
But then later on, one of my other mentors is I worked for Judge O'Kelly in the Northern District Of Georgia, right out of law school for a year, and he was a huge mentor in my life. I started my career with him and every step of the way up until this past last position, he was always advising me, encouraging me. He was always the first person I called when I was making changes in my career. He passed in, I think it was 2017, but, I mean, he was a huge influence in my path to the bench.
Holly Geerdes:
13:53
Why did you choose the law as your career?
Justice McMillian:
13:57
Well, actually, had did not intend to be a lawyer when I went to college. I was very interested in history and economics and thought that I was going to become a high school history teacher. I had planned to go get my teaching Master's of Arts in Teaching when I came home one summer and ran into my speech and debate coach from high school, and he asked me what I wanted to do. And I told him, and he said, You really should think about law school.
Holly Geerdes:
14:30
You never thought about that until then?
Justice McMillian:
14:32
Not really. Not seriously. I had never I had not thought about it until then. And I started thinking about it and decided I I was gonna go to graduate school. So either I was going to take the GRE and go to graduate school, or I would take the LSAT and go to law school.
Justice McMillian:
14:53
And then decided to go to law school.
Holly Geerdes:
14:55
And what was the ultimate reason or factor that made you choose that instead of?
Justice McMillian:
15:00
You know, it was, I was thinking about trying to get a PhD in history or at least a master's degree in in history. And one of the requirements for that is you have to learn another language. And I thought, do I really wanna do that? And so I decided to go to law school. I didn't have to learn another language to go to law school.
Holly Geerdes:
15:20
Okay. And after law school then, where did you end up?
Justice McMillian:
15:25
So I worked for Judge O'Kelly for a year in Atlanta, and then I was with the law firm Sutherland Asbo and Brennan, which is now Evershed Sutherland. But back then it was Sutherland, Asbo and Brennan, one of the larger firms here in Atlanta.
Holly Geerdes:
15:41
And did you face any challenges and obstacles in your legal career that, you know, we look back on those and now we're grateful for them, but at the time it's difficult to get through. But did you face any challenges that you feel like, you know, shaped who you are again, that you are today?
Justice McMillian:
15:58
Yeah, I mean, I think working in a fast paced, big firm environment is challenging for anyone. And so, you know, when you're a younger younger associate, you work a lot of hours, work really hard to learn your craft. But I was lucky, the firm gave me a lot of responsibility early on. So I was taking depositions, going to court, that type of thing, which was very, very helpful. I worked on some appeals, which is very helpful for my current position.
Justice McMillian:
16:35
And
Holly Geerdes:
16:37
what advice would you give for new attorneys that are going into law firms that, you know, to move on up and to get in more leadership and getting, you know, on cases and being able to really be in the partnership track that, you know, sometimes I think, especially for any minority group, they feel like it's slower or they have disadvantages. And the other side is use who you are as an advantage. I don't know what goes into the partnership track, I'm not in the law firm field, but what advice would you give in particular to Asian Americans that look at Justice McMillan and go, wow, how did that happen? How can I make that happen for me?
Justice McMillian:
17:30
Yeah. I mean, I think and I'm gonna speak to this current generation because things are so different now than when I first started. I think for this generation, I would encourage people to go to the office Mhmm.
Holly Geerdes:
17:45
Yes. And
Justice McMillian:
17:45
work, because you make a lot of relationships that way. You get a lot of good work that way because the partner sees you in the hall or or you're available to help with a project. And that's not necessarily the case if you're working from home. And so I would encourage young people to to come into the office, to make those connections, to build those relationships with their partners, to build those relationships with their clients, and to also build relationships with other lawyers because that's where you get your a lot of your business from referrals. And so be involved with the legal community, whether it's through the State Bar of Georgia or other organizations like GAPABA, which has been a great resource for me and Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
18:34
Other Asian American and non Asian American lawyers. We GAPABA has members from, you know, from everywhere. So I would encourage people to just get involved and establish their networks and work really hard.
Holly Geerdes:
18:52
And GAPABA, which is a Georgia Asian Pacific American bar association, I think it has over seven fifty members now.
Justice McMillian:
19:01
Yes, it's amazing how many members we So,
Holly Geerdes:
19:05
how do you feel about, you know, GAPABA and its role in helping Asian American lawyers? Because when we were younger, we didn't have those types of organizations. I mean, they may have existed, but they were very small. But to have, like, organizations like APABA, to be able to network with other Asian American lawyers who are successful and doing what you are recommending, get out there networking, how important do you think that is to keep that going, to keep it growing for this upcoming generation that is more isolated, they like to be alone more, they're at home more, and, you know, how important do you feel like a Papa is in that role of helping this younger generation in their evolution of the you know, their legal career in general?
Justice McMillian:
19:52
Yeah. I think APABA is really important for young Asian American lawyers because it provides a resource for them from law students to more senior lawyers. KAPABA has a young lawyers and law students division. They have a lot of great events where you get to meet other young people, and then they also try to introduce you to some more senior lawyers. And they have other programming as well where you our gala where you you meet lawyers not just from GAPABA, but from the national organization.
Justice McMillian:
20:32
Members come from out of town to just to go to the gala, and you get to meet judges and general counsels and other people that you normally wouldn't be able to meet. And so I think APABA is really important in terms of bringing people together.
Holly Geerdes:
20:48
How do you feel like your Asian American background and the culture that you were raised in, was there anything that you feel like helped shape your success, that part of your culture and your history from your family? How do you feel like that shaped or, you know, got you to where you are today as this justice McMillan on a personal and, obviously, the professional level?
Justice McMillian:
21:16
Yeah. I mean, I think being the only Asian American in your class or your school, I think I just learned how to stand out because I mean, I I think being an Asian American has its advantages and disadvantages. I think an advantage is people remember you because you're the only one. Yeah. I mean, I can go back to my, you know, law school, and I went to University of Georgia, and professors will remember me.
Justice McMillian:
21:47
And my husband actually also went to law school there too, but the professors aren't gonna remember him as well because I was the only Asian person in my class, so it's easier to remember me. But I think that I did have to I I felt like I had to work harder to prove myself because there weren't many Asian Americans, especially in litigation.
Holly Geerdes:
22:12
Most
Justice McMillian:
22:13
of the Asian American lawyers I know are in IP or maybe corporate. And and I think more recently, there's been more Asian American litigators, but I certainly didn't know a lot of Asian American litigators when I was a young lawyer.
Holly Geerdes:
22:31
And did you have to overcome this? And this is stereotype, whether it's true or not, of Asian American lawyers being more quiet, non confrontational, and just work hard. Right? Other than that, I don't know, did you face any of those stereotypes that whether they're true or not, did you face that in your legal career?
Justice McMillian:
22:54
I think people probably assumed that I would be, I was quiet because of my Asian face. Yep. But I just had to prove that, you know, I had a voice and I could speak up and I knew what I was doing and I was prepared. And so yeah. Sure.
Justice McMillian:
23:12
I I think I had to overcome that.
Holly Geerdes:
23:15
You know, being at the forefront and, being a trailblazer where a lot of the Asian Americans are looking at you, how do you and looking towards mentorship, you know, not directly, but they're watching you. How do you feel like the Asian American, lawyers have evolved? You know, seeing how they've evolved over time, do you feel like there is a positive evolution of Asian American lawyers, in part to KAPABA too, but in what they're doing? Have you seen or do you believe that we are moving on up into the partnership track, the CEOs in the corporate? Do you see that?
Holly Geerdes:
24:01
And do you do you feel like we're moving in a positive direction and moving faster towards those leadership roles?
Justice McMillian:
24:10
Yeah. I think so. And I think that and I can only speak to the South because, I mean, I think things are very different, say, in California or maybe Hawaii where there's a very, very large Asian American population. So I can't speak to that. But I think in the South where there's just not as many Asian Americans generally, that having Asian Americans in leadership roles encourages the next generation, I hope, to aspire to that as well.
Holly Geerdes:
24:42
Yeah. And, you know, there are many AAPI organizations, and a lot of them are dying a little bit with the older generation retiring. How important do you feel like it is to have these different AAPI organizations to continue with the younger generation, which it's getting harder to recruit younger generation because they don't know the history of a lot of these leaders in these AAPI organizations, and they're not, you know, talking about their history. But it is getting harder to recruit the younger generation into these AAPI to advocate for Asian Americans to be there when people Asian Americans need help in the community. So, the community wise is not as strong with the younger generation.
Holly Geerdes:
25:35
And so, what do you feel about that and how important do you think it is to try to continue the AAPI organization with the younger generation, even though it's getting harder for them to participate?
Justice McMillian:
25:47
Yeah. I mean, maybe things just need to evolve. I'm I'm not really sure because, I mean, I I face the same thing. I have two children. One's 17, one's 21.
Justice McMillian:
25:56
And to be candid, I don't think they're interested in joining an organization of Chinese Americans or things,
Holly Geerdes:
26:02
you know,
Justice McMillian:
26:02
they that they probably see that as an organization for people of my generation. Yeah. Exactly. They they aren't that interested in it. But maybe there are other organizations that they may be interested in.
Justice McMillian:
26:17
I I know, for instance, my alma mater, Duke University, just within the past several years, formed the Duke Asian Alliance, which is an alumni association for Asian Americans for the first time ever. Yeah. And maybe it's those kinds of organizations that will will take the lead in encouraging other Asian American leaders in the future. Maybe these other organizations can partner with these these newer organizations. And
Holly Geerdes:
26:48
how do you, maintain or balance the Asian American culture with the American culture in your family?
Justice McMillian:
26:56
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little bit easier with my mother who has since passed, but when my kids were smaller, we'd always go home for Christmas and Thanksgiving, and we would celebrate holidays with with my family. But my mom would always cook Chinese food. And she would speak Chinese to them. But she grew up in Hong Kong, so she was much more familiar with that culture.
Justice McMillian:
27:26
I mean, I grew up here I grew up in Augusta. I mean, I really don't have much experience with Chinese culture. And my kids are generally interested in Chinese culture. I mean, I they actually both of them took Mandarin Chinese in high school. Even though my family speaks Cantonese, but they wanted to take Chinese.
Justice McMillian:
27:52
So they they're they're learning about Chinese language and culture through their through the Mandarin classes. And so and then recently, my son, he's he's a junior at Kennesaw State University. He's taking a class on I think it's like a documentary film class or something like that where he has to do a project on a civil justice issue. And he is he came up with several Asian American topics that he wanted to explore because he's interested in that. So, I mean, I think that I've developed an interest in learning about their culture and background.
Justice McMillian:
28:30
And now that they're growing up a little bit, they seem to be wanting to explore that.
Holly Geerdes:
28:36
Wonderful. On the court of appeals and your vast trajectory to the Supreme Court, what has been your experience and what are you most proud of? And maybe what has been the most challenging, being on the bench on the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court?
Justice McMillian:
28:57
Yeah. I mean, it's just been an honor to be on the state appellate court, whether it's the Court of Appeals and or the Supreme Court. I mean, I was appointed to the Court of Appeals in 2013. Prior to that, I was the state court judge, tall court judge, in Fayette County. And, when I was appointed to the Court of Appeals, I can remember driving into Atlanta, seeing the skylight, and just being so honored to be able to to serve the state of Georgia in that way and to uphold the rule of law, to uphold the independence of the judiciary.
Justice McMillian:
29:36
And I think that is the biggest challenge these days now with the attacks on the judiciary and questioning of the rule of law that it's incumbent on judges and lawyers to educate the public about how important it is that we uphold the rule of law, that that we decide cases not based on fear or favor or affection for one side or the other or bias. We decide it based on the law. And so, I hope that would be my legacy
Holly Geerdes:
30:07
Mhmm. To the courts. And the being on the bench, do you see, based on the population of Asian Americans, the lawyers, in turn, reflecting that diversity and population to represent them? How do you see the evolution of the diversity in the court system now, from the time that you were a state court judge to Court of Appeals to the Supreme Court? Do you see that improving?
Holly Geerdes:
30:35
Because here you have a lot of minorities in the court system, even in Gwinnett, if you go there, it's a lot of Koreans and Asian Americans, the lawyers still the disparity is huge. And we have one Judge Alvin Wong in the state court. You know, what do you see and how do you see this evolving over time?
Justice McMillian:
30:57
Yeah. I mean, I still think that Asian Americans don't necessarily go into litigation versus Yeah. Other areas of the law. And so, of course, you know, you're not if Asian Americans aren't going to litigation, you're not gonna see them in court. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
31:12
I did see more Asian American lawyers, when I was in the trial court bench, not so much on the, court of appeals or the Supreme Court because the the the lawyers who tend to do appellate work, they're very specialized. Yeah. And maybe just a few Asian American lawyers I know who've done appeals. But, for the most part, I I I have not seen many, Asian American appellate lawyers, but I'd love to see them.
Holly Geerdes:
31:42
Yeah. By the way, did you imagine of being a judge before you even got appointed or asked to be? Did you ever imagine that you would or you wanted to be a judge?
Justice McMillian:
31:56
No. I actually I never thought about being a judge. I was the first lawyer in my family and really didn't know much about the legal system or, you know, what lawyers did. And and I just kind of I went to law school, and then I I did what the law school told me to do, which is drop resumes at, you know, at at big law firms and then try to get a clerkship because if you wanna go to litigation, you should get a clerkship. And so I just did everything they told me to do.
Justice McMillian:
32:30
And so I never thought about being a judge because I thought, well, to be a judge, don't you have to know someone or you have to run for election? Or I really didn't understand that process at all. So I never really thought about becoming a judge until the opportunity presented itself.
Holly Geerdes:
32:44
So can you, describe the process and the experience of running for a state court position judge?
Justice McMillian:
32:52
So I originally was appointed to my, state court, position. And here in Georgia, the judges, run for election. But if there's a vacancy between elections, then the governor appoints. And so that's how I got my position in state court in Fayette County. But then after the appointment, the judge has to run for election to keep his or her seat.
Justice McMillian:
33:19
And so that was one of the reasons, frankly, I initially did not want to apply for the position of trial court judge in in my home circuit because I knew that I had to run for election to keep my seat, and that wasn't something that I was really interested in doing. But what changed my mind were my two kids at the time. They were little. They were four and eight or three and seven, very, very young. And I especially for my daughter, I wanted to be able to show her the importance of stepping out of my comfort zone and taking a a risk and serving the community where she would be growing up.
Justice McMillian:
34:01
And so so that's when I put in for state court was superior court at the time, and I got appointed to state court. That was in 2010. Soon after that, my my worries came to fruition and that I did get a challenger for my first election, which was 2012. I had to campaign for about a year, and it was difficult because if you've ever been to Fayette County, there's maybe 4% or fewer Asian Americans. There's not an Asian American population I could rely on, and so I had to just go out and introduce myself to the community.
Justice McMillian:
34:41
Of course, I had lived there for many years, and so I had had a lot of friends in the churches and the schools and the area and and that sort of thing and do my community work, but still had to go out and present myself. And, you know, the voters in Fayette County, they accepted me, and they elected me by overwhelming majority. And it was never about me being Asian Yeah. American or being a woman, even though I was the first woman to be a state or superior court judge in that circuit. Like, they had not run.
Holly Geerdes:
35:15
The first of minis.
Justice McMillian:
35:16
Yeah. And and so I was different from any other previous judges that had run. I presented myself as someone who would work hard to and who would uphold the rule of law, who would decide cases based on the law and not based on any biases, and the voters elected me based on that.
Holly Geerdes:
35:37
When you were campaigning, what did you learn about yourself? Because that you know, running a contested race is, yeah, a marathon and whatever you went through when you won overwhelmingly. Did you learn anything about yourself campaigning?
Justice McMillian:
35:53
Yeah. I mean, campaigning gives you a lot of fortitude because you have to put yourself out there and be able to introduce yourself to a group of people. And sometimes you go to these events and they say, okay. You have three minutes. You have five minutes.
Justice McMillian:
36:08
Oh, wow. You know, seven minutes to talk about yourself and what you stand for. And as a judge, of course, you can't take any positions on cases or issues that that are pending before the court. So as in a judicial race when you're campaigning, you're really campaigning on who I am as a person, you know, whether I'm the type of person you want as a judge because I can't campaign on issues. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
36:33
And so you have to be able to introduce yourself to people and, you know, take stock of, you know, what do you believe in and and be able to present that to folks. And, also, campaigning is hard because you never know where you're standing in any one particular moment. It's not like a, you know, a small race. You're not gonna have polling or
Holly Geerdes:
36:53
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
36:53
Anything like that where you can tell whether you're are you are you winning? Are you losing? You don't know until election day happens, and you you look at the vote totals at the end of the day. So it's, you know, a lot of uncertainty related to that, and all you can know is whether you're working hard. And so I tried to make it a point every day to do something related to the campaign.
Justice McMillian:
37:18
If it wasn't an event, I was writing notes. I was making calls. You know? It was just I knew I I was gonna work hard to keep my seat, and, you know, I put the work in and ended up winning that race.
Holly Geerdes:
37:30
And anybody that, you know, wants to run a campaign for whatever physician or judge, what advice would you give them?
Justice McMillian:
37:38
Well, I would encourage them to get a lot of support and help because as lawyers, you're not trained on running a campaign. And so there are professionals out there who were able to help craft the campaign and and and all of that. So I would encourage you to to do that. But then other than that, just you have to work at it. One of the best pieces of advice that I got from it was a congressman at the time.
Justice McMillian:
38:07
He said, you know, you just you have to go ask people for the vote.
Holly Geerdes:
38:11
Just ask.
Justice McMillian:
38:12
Just ask. I mean, people vote for candidates who ask for their vote, who listen to them, who go who take the time to talk to people. So I I went and asked people to
Holly Geerdes:
38:24
vote for me. And, you know, when people talk about you, Justice McMillan, it's always about sincerity. They always see that about you, that you're so sincere about who you are, and you're very intentional. And, you know, I think that's, in my opinion, and I think everybody's opinion that gets to know you, that that's what comes across and why you overwhelmingly won your election is people are looking for sincerity. They're looking for transparency of who you are, and we're in a generation now where, you know, we seem transparent about everything, but it's not really who they are, and we hide behind whatever.
Holly Geerdes:
39:08
But my experience from talking to everybody about you is that's the one thing that always comes across, is that you are absolutely sincere about who you are and what you are passionate about, and you love people. And that's I wanted to say that to you because that's why people always wanna know who you are, know how you got here, and they admire, you know, everything that you've done, absolute first of minis. And the other thing that I want to touch upon, the judiciary, is the mental health. I come from a generation of lawyers, and I think you do too, where that was never mentioned. You never talked about it.
Holly Geerdes:
39:52
And the legal profession, people don't realize how hard it is if you are very conscious and diligent and hardworking about your legal career and when you're representing clients, and that bleeds into your home. And so, you know, how do you feel like now that we talk about it and it's not something that we just hide behind and just put it away while we keep working until we break down? And so, on the judiciary and the experience that you've had, how do you feel about, you know, now being more transparent and also the state bar, you know, helping out more about your mental health? And if you don't take care of that, you are not being the best lawyer that you can be for your clients.
Justice McMillian:
40:41
Yeah. Well, first of all, I appreciate your comments about my sincerity because, I mean, I still feel like I'm that little girl who just grew up in that, you know, a little Asian family in Augusta, And, you know, I'm I am honored to be in the place where I am, and I never wanna change from from that. As far as mental health, I think it's great that we are having conversations now about mental health, that the state bar has programming to support lawyers' mental health. They have a the use your six program, which all lawyers in Georgia have six calls that they can make, appointments that they can make with a therapist or other person they can talk to if they are facing any issues. As for me, what keeps me sane, I think, is my first of all, my family and my faith.
Justice McMillian:
41:36
Mhmm. And I think that's important for all lawyers no matter how what you believe to to have a life outside of the law because the law can consume you. Mhmm. Your clients can consume you. You the work can consume you.
Justice McMillian:
41:51
But I've spent a lot of time, you know, raising my kids and really enjoyed when they were younger, and now they're getting older, and they're, like, doing their own things now. And my church as well, my church family. I've been I've been in in the same church for over twenty five years now, and it's, you know, home away from home. And I have my friends there who don't know me as a judge. I mean, know I am a judge, but they don't know me as a judge.
Justice McMillian:
42:20
They're just friends. And when
Holly Geerdes:
42:22
you talk about faith and, you know, your philosophy in life, what do you feel like or convey to our audience, what your philosophy and faith, how that has shaped who you are, and if you can give any guidance on those that are, you know, they don't have that faith or that philosophy to guide them, because I believe you have to have something you believe in, morally, you know, just some compass to give you something that you can believe in that will make you a better human being. And so, you know, what has been your foundation for being what people consider just a great human being, you know, let alone being Justice McMillan, but being a great human being, what has been the foundation for you that carries you every day when you're on the bench, when you're at home, when you're exhausted, when you have challenges? What is that that makes you get through the day?
Justice McMillian:
43:22
Yeah, I mean, I think my faith keeps me grounded. And for me, I mean, it's it's knowing what's right and what's wrong. And by the way, I don't judge cases based on that. I know a lot a lot of people have that misconception that judges decide cases based on what they feel like. But if you're a a good judge, a lot of times you're making decisions based on the law, even though personally you might not want to make that decision.
Justice McMillian:
43:53
But you're following the law. So I just wanna make that clear that although my faith is important to me, I don't use it to to decide cases. Yeah. But it is import my my faith is important to keep me grounded because I know what my worth is because of my faith. I know how to conduct myself because of my faith.
Justice McMillian:
44:14
I mean, I know how to treat other people because of my faith. And so I think a lot of, you know, how I interact with people is based on my faith because I believe everyone is worthy of being respected. And and so that's how I'd like to treat other people. What
Holly Geerdes:
44:36
are your three favorite books?
Justice McMillian:
44:38
Oh, my three favorite books? I guess I'll make a plug. Some of my more recent favorite books, my husband's actually an author.
Holly Geerdes:
44:48
Oh, really?
Justice McMillian:
44:49
He's a lawyer. He's a law professor at John Marshall Law School. But in his spare time, he also writes legal thrillers. Oh, really? So would be I I would not be a good wife if I didn't say that his books are some of my favorite, and they are some of my favorite books.
Holly Geerdes:
45:07
I did not know that.
Justice McMillian:
45:08
Yes. So so he has this he's written five books. He's working on a six, and it's a series. It's a, like I said, legal thriller, and a lot of the stories are based on some of our experiences. So for instance, he has one where he murders the chief justice of the Georgia Supreme Court in this building where we're sitting.
Justice McMillian:
45:33
Or he he has a he's murd That's very close
Holly Geerdes:
45:35
to me.
Justice McMillian:
45:36
It's very close, and he's he's he's he's killed off, president of the State Bar of Georgia at the annual meeting. You know, things and and so those for me are are books I enjoy reading because they take me away from the really serious work that that we do. They're they're more, you know, enjoyable reading.
Holly Geerdes:
45:59
And on your spouse, on that topic, how do you feel like a role has your spouse been in your career and your personal life that's impacted who you are in your success? You know, I always believe the family that plays together, whether it's work or not, they stay together. And behind every successful person is usually a spouse behind the scenes. And so what role has your husband played in your success?
Justice McMillian:
46:30
I think we've done a lot to support each other in our success in our, you know, each of our careers. And, you know, a lot of times people talk about, you know, how do you balance, you know, work life balance and and that sort of thing. And what I like to tell young lawyers is that sometimes your life is unbalanced Yep. At any particular time. You're going to if you're taking a case to trial, your life during that period of time is going to be unbalanced.
Justice McMillian:
47:00
Can't help it.
Holly Geerdes:
47:01
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:02
But it's great to have a spouse who can help pick up the pieces
Holly Geerdes:
47:06
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:07
And keep things going. And I do the same for him as well. And so, you know, I think we wouldn't each be in the places where we are without the support of the other person.
Holly Geerdes:
47:20
And, you know, for anybody that, I would love to see a judiciary that has more Asian Americans, what advice would you give for anybody that wants to be a judge?
Justice McMillian:
47:31
Yeah. And first of all, I mean, it's really hard to predict that. Right? Because a lot of a lot of time times, it's based on, you know, circumstances. Like, I never thought I would be a judge, and it just happened that two out of the four superior court judges in my circuit resigned, and they were looking for new judges at that that time.
Justice McMillian:
47:50
I mean, you can't predict that that is going to happen. You have to be in a lot of times, it has to be in the right place at the right time.
Holly Geerdes:
47:58
Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
47:59
But what I tell young lawyers is that, you can make sure that if that time comes, you're prepared. So you need to be the best lawyer that you can possibly be to network. And sometimes I tell young lawyers, especially young, Asian American lawyers that sometimes it's bet better to be a big fish in a small pond Mhmm. And not live in Atlanta. Yeah.
Justice McMillian:
48:26
Right? Because there's so many there's so many lawyers in Atlanta that it's very competitive to become a judge in Atlanta versus if you were in a rural county where the bar is very small. Yeah. You can become a very successful lawyer and well known lawyer within that town and become a judge there. But it is, I mean, it's difficult.
Justice McMillian:
48:49
You you may be the only Asian person
Holly Geerdes:
48:52
in your your own town. Stand
Justice McMillian:
48:53
out. Right. But you can stand out.
Holly Geerdes:
48:55
Can you give us, like, the top three reasons that if you can think of made you successful. Just top three, generally, if you can come up with. And there are many reasons, obviously, and many people behind your success, but if you could just name top three reasons or top three people that you feel like in the moment that made you successful.
Justice McMillian:
49:25
Well, first of all, my family, my parents, my aunts and uncles. I think I wouldn't be here without their help and support. As I said, I had to my father passed away when I was 16. My mother didn't go to college, so I had to had to lean on their support and also my own work ethic to get myself through college and then law school. And so I wouldn't be here without them.
Justice McMillian:
49:55
Mhmm. I think another huge factor in my success is and I'll credit the University of Georgia School of Law because I ended up going there on a full scholarship. I don't know how else I would have paid for law school, but I I got a full scholarship, got a great education. And I don't think I would be a judge here in Georgia, except that I went to University of Georgia School of Law, and and the only reason I I went there was because of the scholarship that I got. And then finally, I guess I would say Judge O'Kelly again, because he was just been such he was such a great mentor throughout my legal career, especially as a young lawyer when I was trying to decide what firm to go to.
Justice McMillian:
50:46
And then when I was applying for my first judgeship, he gave me so much great advice, and I I was able to emulate him on the bench. He was a great judge. Not only did he know the law, but he just he was so professional. And that's the kind of judge I wanted to emulate on the That
Holly Geerdes:
51:06
was one that you could look at towards and say, this is how I wanna be as a judge. Yes. What a great lesson. Justice McMillan, and I know you may have already said this, but I'd like to ask again, how do you wanna be remembered personally and as the Supreme Court justice?
Justice McMillian:
51:24
Well, I think personally, I don't I don't know. I I just wanna be remembered as mother of James and Emily. Mhmm. That they're, you know, great. They end up being great adults, great people.
Justice McMillian:
51:42
That's what's really important to me in my personal life. As far as a legacy as a Supreme Court Justice, I just hope people remember me as a justice who upholds the rule of law, like I said before. That is so important to the confidence of the judicial system, the public's confidence in the judicial system, that they know that judges, we're here to apply the law as it's written, that we're not here to, decide cases based on what we feel like or who the parties are. And I think that is very, very important, and I hope that that's gonna be the legacy that I leave for the Georgia court court of appeals and Georgia supreme court.
Holly Geerdes:
52:30
Well, thank you, justice McMillan. This was an honor, and it was fascinating. And I hope we can have you again when maybe you're the US Supreme Court Justice.
Justice McMillian:
52:38
Well, we'll see about that.
Holly Geerdes:
52:40
I don't know. You.
