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Announcer: This is a Getty
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podcast.
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Jaime Roque: Santa
Fe, New Mexico, 2001.
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The Museum of International
Folk Art unveils a new digital
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photograph called Our Lady.
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[Upbeat music begins]
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Spotlights flare.
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Familiar Virgen de
Guadalupe symbols—gold
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rays, teal cloak, crescent
moon, bed of roses—frame
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an unfamiliar center.
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A young mujer, hands on
hips, chin lifted, and
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robe parted to reveal
rose-patterned bikini bottoms.
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Below her, an
angel—bare-chested,
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arms wide—unfurls
monarch-orange wings.
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[angry crowd yells]
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Outraged Catholics
say the artist has
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crossed a sacred line.
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The local archbishop brands the
print “blasphemous”; protesters
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clutching rosaries encircle
the museum, and even a bishop
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across the Atlantic weighs in.
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Why?
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Because a queer Mexicana
artist named Alma López
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dared to re-imagine a
centuries-old sacred icon
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as the strong nurturing
woman she grew up with.
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Alma López: I was just
like, wait a second.
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I’m Mexicana!
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I grew up with this image.
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Roque: So what is it about this
Virgen de Guadalupe—around for
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nearly five centuries—that some
venerate as holy, while others
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wear like a cultural badge?
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Virgin de Guadalupe on bikinis,
on skateboards, t-shirts,
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hats, bumper stickers, tattoos.
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These aren’t relics;
they’re identifiers—markers
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of who we are.
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To understand why that single
print made so much noise,
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we need to step back—before
Photoshop, before murals,
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before Mexico itself.
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Hello my name is Jaime
and Welcome to season
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two of ReCurrent.
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[Upbeat music ends]
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[church bells chime] From
basilica candles in Mexico
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City to corner-store walls
on Whittier Boulevard,
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and the glass case of my
parents’ jewelry shop where
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her medallions outsold
every crucifix and charm
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we carried: La Virgen de
Guadalupe is everywhere.
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And my family wasn’t Catholic,
but in a Mexican family, someone
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in the family always is and
you still learn the rules:
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respect the Virgen de Guadalupe.
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My aunt kept a framed Virgen
de Guadalupe in the living
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room and my cousin—the king of
filthy language—would not drop
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a single cuss word in that room.
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Step outside and it was “F-bomb
city”, but in front of her?
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Total respect.
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As I got older I started
spotting her everywhere in LA.
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Nothing religious in nature,
just a “Cool, I know my peeps
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are nearby”. At the same
time, I started to look at the
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Virgen de Guadalupe as like
this cool art that represented
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heritage for me. Heritage
that doesn’t just sit in a
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gallery or in an archive.
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It hangs off a rear view
mirror, sits on a wall and gets
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carried around on a necklace.
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Places that are familiar
to me, and places that I
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didn’t know at the time is
where heritage can be found.
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So how did a miracle born on a
hillside end up silk screened
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on polyester, and still sparks
both prayers and protest?
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Let’s return to where
the story began.
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[Upbeat music begins]
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December 9, 1531.
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Dawn on Tepeyac Hill near
the new capital of New Spain.
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A Nahuatl convert,
Juan Diego, hears birds
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that sound like bells.
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A brown-skinned woman wrapped
in stars speaks Náhuatl:
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“Build me a temple here.” Roses
bloom in winter; her image
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spontaneously appears on his
cactus-fiber cloak, his tilma.
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The pigments never fade,
and the fibers never rot.
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The Catholic Church
recognized this as an
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apparition of the Virgin Mary.
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But for the Indigenous
peoples of central Mexico,
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her appearance echoed
older sacred traditions.
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The site itself had been
dedicated to Tonantzin,
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a maternal deity in
the Mexica worldview.
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So the figure known as Our Lady
of Guadalupe came to be seen as
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a blend of traditions, connected
to the Virgin Mary, yet shaped
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by the spiritual and cultural
languages of both Europe
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and the Indigenous Americas.
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Guadalupe is hybrid from
birth: Indigenous and
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European, a symbol of both
conquest and survival.
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Five centuries later she’s
still remixed: rebel banners,
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freeway murals, corner
candles, soccer match-day kits.
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La Virgen de Guadalupe’s first
apparition happened outdoors,
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before any church wall was
built for her—and it felt
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like a pure miracle yet also
a deliberate, politically
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charged sign—and ever since,
she turns up where her people
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are, more often outside
church walls than within.
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Spain won México with swords
but completely conquered
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the territory with story.
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In 1531 the empire needed
a miracle both Spaniards
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and Nahuatls would trust.
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Guadalupe delivered:
turquoise robe, Aztec sun
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rays, European prayer hands.
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And yet only Juan Diego, an
Indigenous farmer, saw her.
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By the 1600’s, devotion
to Guadalupe had exploded.
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Artists answered the demand
for replicas with a flood of
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images—prints, canvases, even
shell-inlay enconchados that
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shimmered like stained glass.
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Many works carried
handwritten notes attesting
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they were faithful copies
of the sacred tilma.
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I guess you can say
she was the first viral
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image of the Americas.
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Yet not every remix is welcomed.
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Alma López found that
out the hard way.
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López: My
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Roque: name is Alma López.
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I am a Mexican-born Chicana,
queer visual artist.
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Growing up on both sides
of the border, I just
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saw her everywhere.
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In, like, house altares
or in the cemetery, the
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panteon, in churches.
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And also in these altares
that were corner altares,
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you know, at the puestos
for the taxis…here in Los
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Angeles, I think she was
much more present everywhere.
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What I would see her is
in the murals, right?
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Almost any corner, little
market, whether it’s a liquor
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store, a 99 Cent store, she
is just present everywhere.
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Alma’s faith isn’t anchored
to pews and altars—it lives
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wherever La Virgen de Guadalupe
shows up on the street.
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Then in 1999, just out of grad
school, a headline in the LA
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Weekly grabs her attention.
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López: I
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Roque: remember coming upon
a story that basically was
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about the Virgen de Guadalupe
murals in South LA and how
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the Virgen de Guadalupe murals
were actually being tagged.
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It was a shocking thing to
read, like, oh my goodness,
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what you think will never
happen in a million, zillion
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years is actually happening.
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The shock sparks talks with
friends and a reading binge.
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One book lands hardest—Goddess
of the Americas,
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edited by Ana Castillo.
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Inside it, a short essay
by Sandra Cisneros poses a
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question Alma can’t shake.
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López: What
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Roque: would I see if I
raised the dress, right,
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of the Virgen de Guadalupe?
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Like I lift the dresses of
my Barbies, what would I see?
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And so it’s like deep
questions, but it’s deep
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because I think she’s really
trying to find a more real
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connection to that image.
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I was relating to the essay
and Sanda Cisneros was
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relating to the Virgen, right?
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And so would I see a body
that I can identify with,
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is her skin a brown skin?
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Does she have breasts?
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And she even says, does she
have a panocha, you know?
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Or will she be neutered
like my Barbies?
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So when she asks those questions
at the very end, I mean, I was
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like a little kid, like a third
grader in class going, ooh, ooh,
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ooh, you know, pick me, teacher,
because I know the answer.
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And so my answer at that
moment was, well, she
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would be covered in roses.
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And why roses?
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Well, roses were the proof and
signature of her apparition,
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and so then that’s how the image
came to be covered in roses—the
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Our Lady image that I did.
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Imagine a postcard-sized
collage, stitched together on an
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early 99 version of Photoshop.
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In the center, a brown-skinned
woman stands tall,
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hands on her hips, roses
guarding breast and pelvis.
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The robe she wears is actually
the Aztec moon goddess,
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Coyolxāuhqui—a warrior goddess.
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Behind her, Guadalupe’s
gold sunburst flares, and
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below, a black crescent
moon rests on the wings of a
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bare-breasted butterfly-angel.
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López: The
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Roque: idea for this was that
I wanted to show, you know,
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a Chicana, a Latina, who was
standing, like strong, right,
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with her hands on her hip.
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I had asked her to stand, like
how a mom or an aunt would
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be standing there right in
front of us saying, “Orale
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Ya!”, you know? Or “Te voy a
tirar la chancla”, you know.
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But also, what most
people look at is really
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the tilt of her head.
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Instead of tilting down,
she has this slight tilt up.
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Alma named the piece Our
Lady, making it clear
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she meant Guadalupe, but
re-imagining a sacred image
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doesn’t come without noise.
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[crowd chatter]
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Back in New Mexico, Alma’s Our
Lady debuts in a state-museum
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show called “Cyber Arte,”
Hours later the region’s
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archbishop is denouncing it.
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López: It’s
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Roque: archbishop Michael
J. Shehan in Santa Fe, Nuevo
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México, who saw our lady
and thought it was like a
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tart or a street walker.
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When I was getting in trouble—in
Santa Fe, Nuevo México, in
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Ireland, and different places,
it was the Catholic church,
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like officials in the Catholic
church who were coming after me
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saying that I had no right to
this image that, that I needed
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a letter from my priest to see
if I really was a Catholic.
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And so I remember thinking,
wait a second, I’m Méxicana;
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I grew up with this image.
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Virgen de Guadalupe and I, we’re
practically home girls, right?
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Because, I mean, we are
Méxicanas, we're brown-skinned,
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we are chaparritas,
you know, whatever!
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Roque: Alma’s
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line opens a 500-year struggle
over who owns Guadalupe’s image.
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Five centuries after Spaniards
draped the Aztec Tonantzin
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in European silk, Alma drapes
La Virgen de Guadalupe in
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digital roses—another round
in the never-ending fight over
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who owns cultural icons and
who gets to reinterpret them.
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López: We
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Roque: have the
image, so it’s real.
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The Catholic Church stole
her from the Indigenous
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peoples and then gives her
back to the community as
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if they are the owners.
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She is an activist
and a revolutionary.
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First of all, we see her
in 1810 during the Mexican
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independence from Spain.
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Father Hidalgo carries
her as the flag.
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And then, 100 years later,
during the Mexican Revolution
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against the Porfirio
Diaz regime, the Zapata
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and Pancho Villa carried her
into the pueblos and then
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also here in the U.S. with the
United Farm Workers, right?
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Cesar Chavez and co-founding
member Dolores Huerta.
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But I think that the spirit
of activist and revolutionary
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started with Juan Diego and
his Indigenous community
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.
Not everyone calling her art
“blasphemy” is an archbishop
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with a press release.
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Everyday believers also had
a lot to say about *Our Lady.
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*Here is one of them:
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Woman: “Dear artist: Mi familia
y yo could not believe what
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you have done by painting
Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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This is not culture class;
this is culture trash.
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Your painting has attacked
the Mother of the Americas.
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Would you have painted
your own mother this way?
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This is our Mother.
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00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:42,650
It was your way of calling
attention to yourself and
237
00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:46,629
disgracing Our Lady of Guadalupe
and our people—la raza.
238
00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:50,280
Mi familia will keep
you in our prayers.
239
00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:53,460
For you have a gift from
God, but you have misused
240
00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:55,759
it by painting our Mother
in a disgraceful way.
241
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,050
God bless you, The
Garcia Familia”
242
00:14:01,470 --> 00:14:04,130
Roque: Alma received many
emails and letters after
243
00:14:04,130 --> 00:14:07,320
that, but the argument
never really came to an end.
244
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:14,420
[Upbeat
245
00:14:16,830 --> 00:14:17,725
music begins]
246
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,020
Two decades, three popes, and
many shares on social media
247
00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:26,930
later, Alma’s Our Lady still
splits opinion, and sometimes
248
00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:29,750
right at the merch table
where Guadalupe is being sold.
249
00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:35,240
So I head to downtown LA to see
how the debate sounds in 2025.
250
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,829
Manuel’s storefront, which he
operates with his wife, is a
251
00:14:38,830 --> 00:14:43,400
shrine in mini-form: rows of
t-shirts, poster prints, stacks
252
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,300
of prayer books, and every
item holds the image of the
253
00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:51,460
classic brown-skin Guadalupe
in her star-flecked cloak.
254
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:53,280
[crowd chatter and street music]
255
00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:56,260
I asked him if I could
get his thoughts on
256
00:14:56,350 --> 00:14:57,800
Alma’s Our Lady artwork.
257
00:14:58,730 --> 00:15:02,000
The longer he stared,
the more upset he became.
258
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:04,110
Manuel: Eh eh, lamentablemente
lamentablemente, tu en
259
00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:10,280
primer lugar, la Virgen
nunca se vistió así.
260
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:10,970
Interpreter: [Manuel continues
to speak in Spanish] That’s
261
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:13,880
really disappointing; the
Virgin never dressed like that.
262
00:15:14,689 --> 00:15:16,579
You don’t play with
the sacred—it’s like
263
00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:17,700
insulting your own mother.
264
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,540
What a shame they
do things like that.
265
00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:23,650
By doing things like that,
this woman is offending her,
266
00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:25,250
and her end will be sad.
267
00:15:26,859 --> 00:15:29,015
You should never
disrespect sacred images.
268
00:15:29,015 --> 00:15:34,330
Roque: [to Manuel] Pues en
eso estoy haciendo historias
269
00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:34,967
aver como, pues....”
270
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:39,300
For Manuel, the Virgen isn’t a
vehicle for self-expression; to
271
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,560
remix her robe is to cross a
line that can’t be unpainted.
272
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,290
Manuel guards the Virgen like
family, unchanged, untouchable.
273
00:15:58,670 --> 00:16:01,390
Yet just a few miles east,
another husband-and-wife
274
00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:03,479
team is running a
different kind of tienda.
275
00:16:05,410 --> 00:16:09,040
At Espacio 1839 in Boyle
Heights, La Virgen still
276
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:12,760
graces the merch—but here
she’s screen-printed on soccer
277
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,710
jerseys, remixed into vinyl
stickers, stitched into denim
278
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:20,560
jackets, even painted on a
seven-foot plywood cut-out
279
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:21,859
that roams the neighborhood.
280
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:28,060
Same mother, same
love—printed in a whole new
281
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:31,450
palette.
282
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:31,950
[on the street] Hey Nico!
283
00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:36,580
Walk into Espacio 1839
in Boyle Heights and
284
00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:38,200
every inch tells a story.
285
00:16:39,010 --> 00:16:42,349
On one jersey La Virgen
sits front and center on an
286
00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:46,469
LAFC shirt, the Los Angeles
Football Club: a colonial
287
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,910
miracle printed onto a
21st-century supporters’ kit.
288
00:16:50,290 --> 00:16:51,850
Nico Avina: Like you’re saying,
it’s part of the culture,
289
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:56,500
you know, but then also the
significance of the foundation
290
00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:57,429
of Los Angeles, right?
291
00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,510
Nuestra Reina Señora
de los Ángeles right?
292
00:16:59,670 --> 00:17:02,500
Roque: So Nico is
bridging two LA staples.
293
00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,759
Avina: You have a lot of
people that have been or are
294
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,310
into soccer, but now, you
know, because I’m adding this
295
00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:12,450
cultural element, it’s sort of
like this fusion of, like, man,
296
00:17:12,830 --> 00:17:16,290
I'm not only like repping the
sport that I like, but I’m also
297
00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:20,620
representing part of my culture
with the imagery that you’re
298
00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:22,470
incorporating into it, you know?
299
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:23,280
So it’s dope.
300
00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:26,400
Roque: Back in Boyle Heights,
Nico Avina doesn’t just
301
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,190
screen La Virgen de Guadalupe
onto soccer kits; he puts
302
00:17:30,190 --> 00:17:34,030
her on buildings–fighting
displacement one wall at a time.
303
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,770
Avina: You expose their humanity
using these images, you know,
304
00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:46,550
and so for me…like this mural
that I have of La Virgen
305
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:50,910
reading an eviction notice.
306
00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:53,900
Roque: Picture a plywood
cut-out of La Virgen de
307
00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:56,900
Guadalupe that towers
seven-and-a-half feet high.
308
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,340
Her scarlet robe and turquoise
veil are unmistakable, but
309
00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:04,730
instead of a shower of roses,
she’s clutching a bright-red
310
00:18:04,730 --> 00:18:08,890
eviction notice, eyes cast down
as if she’s just been served.
311
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:13,159
Eastside artist Nico Avina
calls the roaming shrine “Lupita
312
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,590
Was Displaced,” and since
2018 he’s been taking her to
313
00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:21,530
every Boyle Heights address
erased by gentrification: the
314
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:24,850
rubble where the old Brooklyn
Theater stood, the ghost
315
00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:28,520
lot of Jonson’s Market, the
leveled Pico-Aliso projects.
316
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,500
Each stop is a quiet protest.
317
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:37,200
Avina: That whole conversation
is about, you know, once
318
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,240
the demographics of a
community change, so
319
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,730
does the artwork, right?
320
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:44,060
Like the murals that were
painted in the communities
321
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:47,819
or in the barrio, was because
people had respect and they
322
00:18:47,819 --> 00:18:48,949
wouldn’t write over La Virgen.
323
00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:51,009
At least they wouldn’t before.
324
00:18:51,370 --> 00:18:56,850
So before, you know, you had
them painted on garage doors
325
00:18:56,850 --> 00:19:00,820
on the side of apartments,
on liquor stores, you know,
326
00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:02,690
and it was, they were there
327
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:06,509
because people wouldn't
write over La Virgen.
328
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:08,000
Right?
329
00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:10,580
But the demographics of the
community start changing.
330
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:11,830
So does the artwork.
331
00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:13,980
So does that artwork
that represents that
332
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:14,970
community, the barrio.
333
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:20,480
And so I did that piece in
reference to that, right?
334
00:19:20,529 --> 00:19:25,540
Like that it’s…once the
demographics of a community
335
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:28,210
change, so does the art that
represents that community.
336
00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,480
So, the murals
get displaced too.
337
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:34,330
Roque: An image that once
evangelized now serves as a
338
00:19:34,330 --> 00:19:37,370
warning: if they can evict
La Virgen de Guadalupe,
339
00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:38,920
they can evict you too.
340
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:41,920
Avina: So it’s not only a tool
for the colonizer, but it's also
341
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,549
a tool as an artist to be able
to share, um, the similarities
342
00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:49,450
of what your stories
that you used against us,
343
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,640
and how we as a people
are going through this.
344
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,520
And now you’re just ignoring us.
345
00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:57,030
Right?
346
00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:03,139
The displacement, the constant
attacks on migration, you know?
347
00:20:04,089 --> 00:20:08,470
The Virgen for me represents
a mother who migrated for the
348
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:10,360
safeguard of her child, right?
349
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:14,110
There’s that sort of respect for
that mother figure, you know,
350
00:20:14,110 --> 00:20:17,554
that mother figure in the barrio
that folks have respect for.
351
00:20:17,554 --> 00:20:17,596
[voice fades out]
352
00:20:17,610 --> 00:20:17,890
[Mariachi
353
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:23,580
music plays]
354
00:20:27,930 --> 00:20:30,460
Roque: If Nico plants a
roaming Virgen on every
355
00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:34,350
scraped-clean lot, Oscar
Rodríguez builds his altar in
356
00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,320
your feed: handle @lavirgencita.
357
00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:41,410
He launched the page the
moment he realized Virgen de
358
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:44,400
Guadalupe murals were being
tagged over or demolished
359
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,850
as Boyle Heights gentrified.
360
00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:50,380
Each photo freezes La Virgen
before she disappears and pins
361
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:53,780
a digital map of places where
our community can still see
362
00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:55,659
her and still feel at home.
363
00:20:55,670 --> 00:21:00,650
Oscar Rodriguez: She’s more
like a mother, you know—a
364
00:21:00,659 --> 00:21:02,073
safe space for Latinos.
365
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,490
Roque: We met at Mariachi
Plaza and took a slow walk
366
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,780
to see the neighborhood’s
Virgen de Guadalupe murals.
367
00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:12,740
Oscar led me to one he’d already
posted on @lavirgencita—a
368
00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:16,100
blue-and-rose Guadalupe
now almost completely
369
00:21:16,109 --> 00:21:19,090
buried under graffiti
that’s piled up over time.
370
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,750
Only her glowing face
peeks through the spray
371
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:25,040
paint, as if she’s saying
she won’t disappear.
372
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,600
Oscar tells me this is why he
records her: even a saint can
373
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,950
fade if no one keeps track.
374
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,989
Rodriguez: When I ever see her
around, you know, whenever it’s
375
00:21:32,989 --> 00:21:35,070
in a mural, whenever it’s on
somebody’s shirt or tattoo,
376
00:21:35,089 --> 00:21:37,570
or like I said, you know, a
bottle or a bottle opener,
377
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:39,350
it makes me feel at home.
378
00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:41,210
It makes me feel
I’m in a safe space.
379
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:42,350
I’m around my community.
380
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:44,600
I’m around the people, that
speak, sound like—sound
381
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,100
and look like me.
382
00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:51,839
And, you know, and it gives me…I
feel like I see a piece of home.
383
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,450
So, you know, it makes
me…it makes my heart, you
384
00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:56,390
know, smile and like I said,
and it makes me feel safe.
385
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:59,430
And I know that I’m in
my community, you know.
386
00:21:59,570 --> 00:22:03,600
She travels like memory
from wall to shirt, from
387
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,400
stickers to even skin, you
know, people get tatted.
388
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,920
People carry with her
not just as devotion, but
389
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,440
as a badge of identity.
390
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,190
Wearing her on your shirt or
getting her as a tattoo—it’s
391
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:15,090
a way of keeping her with
you in a world that doesn’t
392
00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:16,050
always make you feel seen.
393
00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:18,989
Sometimes people say, even
send me messages of people
394
00:22:18,989 --> 00:22:21,045
praying or some people saying
like, hey, you know what?
395
00:22:21,069 --> 00:22:23,679
My brother passed away,
you know, and seeing
396
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:24,400
this reminds me of him.
397
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,930
Just like how you
mentioned, you know, when
398
00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:26,670
your mother passed away…
399
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,279
[voice fades out]
400
00:22:35,739 --> 00:22:38,210
Roque: Oscar’s final words
take me back to Olvera
401
00:22:38,210 --> 00:22:40,060
Street—season one fieldwork.
402
00:22:40,819 --> 00:22:44,160
I’d wrap interviews then walk
over to sit alone beneath
403
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,290
a sun-bleached Virgen de
Guadalupe at the small Catholic
404
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:48,370
church across the street.
405
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,590
I didn’t pray—I’m not Catholic,
I’m not even religious—but
406
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:57,290
during that time in my life I
was a son just trying to keep it
407
00:22:57,290 --> 00:22:58,830
together after losing his mom.
408
00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:01,910
And that bench was a rest stop.
409
00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:05,910
The street noise, the
vendors, the music—it all
410
00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:08,820
faded just long enough
for me to catch my breath.
411
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,660
The quiet showed
me why she matters.
412
00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:17,590
It isn’t about rules or church;
it’s the small space she
413
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:23,020
opens in the noise, a moment
where grief lets go so you can
414
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,360
breathe, reset, and move on.
415
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,610
The burden stays, but in that
stillness I felt the same gentle
416
00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:33,140
strength my mom once gave me.
417
00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:39,090
For the first time in my
life, I lit a candle for her.
418
00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:39,489
[lighter clicks]
419
00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:46,870
Just like Alma said, La Virgen
de Guadalupe is everywhere
420
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:49,960
in this great open-air
basilica we call Los Angeles.
421
00:23:50,609 --> 00:23:53,740
While working on this
story, I even spotted her
422
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:57,570
four rows ahead of my seat,
pinned to a Dodger-blue cap
423
00:23:57,839 --> 00:24:01,760
in a place they call “Blue
Heaven”: Dodger Stadium.
424
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,110
I approach the guy, Dominic
Wilkins from Santa Maria, CA,
425
00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:10,380
and ask him what he thinks
of Alma López’ Guadalupe.
426
00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:13,980
Dominic Wilkins: It’s not
up to me to judge that.
427
00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:17,790
In the end, it comes
down to the Lord.
428
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:20,360
Hey, you know what—there
could be some positives
429
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:21,240
toward it, right?
430
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,740
It could be bringing
people to the real thing.
431
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,390
Obviously, like you said,
those images—there’s a
432
00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:30,860
real image behind that.
433
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:36,290
And if that…whatever guides
people closer to God, then I’m
434
00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:37,170
for it, you know what I mean?
435
00:24:38,830 --> 00:24:41,920
Roque: Dominic tips his cap
and slips back into the sea of
436
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,750
Dodger blue, as I make my way
back to my seat I start to take
437
00:24:46,750 --> 00:24:50,199
it all in, the conversation
and the journey I’ve been
438
00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:53,850
on.
439
00:24:59,770 --> 00:25:00,130
[Jazz music plays]
440
00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:03,750
I didn’t have to walk into
a cathedral to meet her.
441
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,060
She found me on corner-store
candles, freeway murals,
442
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,720
polyester jerseys—and
tonight, four rows ahead of
443
00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:13,310
me on a Dodger baseball cap.
444
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,470
From Juan Diego’s tilma to
Alma López’s digital collage,
445
00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:22,339
every generation redraws her
outline, rewrites her story.
446
00:25:22,819 --> 00:25:26,819
And with each redraw the
question changes: not “Is
447
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,120
she sacred?” but “Sacred
to whom—and for what?”.
448
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,440
Is La Virgen de Guadalupe here
as intercessor, or mascot?
449
00:25:36,370 --> 00:25:39,900
The moment an icon slips
outside the sanctuary, its
450
00:25:39,910 --> 00:25:41,040
meaning is up for grabs.
451
00:25:42,029 --> 00:25:44,510
For some she’s still
the mother of God, the
452
00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:45,439
mother of the Americas.
453
00:25:46,609 --> 00:25:49,800
For others she’s abuela’s
warmth, barrio pride,
454
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:55,060
defiance to the system—and
sometimes all at once.
455
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,910
No church gate can keep
her off skateboard decks,
456
00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:02,620
low-rider hoods, Instagram
feeds, swap-meet hoodies,
457
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,870
dollar-store veladoras, or the
gloss of a fresh forearm tattoo.
458
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:12,980
That split—spiritual practice
versus cultural heritage—is
459
00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:13,820
what keeps her alive.
460
00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:18,740
She’s a relic, saint, and
rally flag, and sometimes
461
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:19,600
in the same breath.
462
00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:19,760
López: I
463
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,220
Roque: would look at this
and I would be like, really?
464
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:25,430
Like, these people think that
they have more of a right
465
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:30,920
than I?...than any of us
Chicanos or Chicanas, to be
466
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,650
able to relate in a real way
just the way Sandra Cisneros
467
00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:38,210
was relating, or trying to
connect and make a significant
468
00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:39,250
connection to the Virgen.
469
00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:40,060
Really?
470
00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:43,270
So if anything I was
just like, really?
471
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,450
That’s the pattern I keep
finding: power flows to
472
00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:48,780
the hand that redraws her.
473
00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:52,580
Juan Diego carried roses,
muralists carried spray
474
00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:54,750
cans, Alma carried pixels.
475
00:26:55,670 --> 00:27:00,050
Each time, the image shifts—from
colonial saint to living protest
476
00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:01,400
to cultural badge of honor.
477
00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,170
The saint doesn’t
transform herself—we do.
478
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,250
Every new technology cracks
the meaning a bit wider.
479
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:12,200
Each remix nudges
her along a spectrum.
480
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:15,950
Five centuries on, La
Virgen de Guadalupe is still
481
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:19,190
in motion—traveling with
migrants, sparking art shows,
482
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:20,340
fueling protest chants.
483
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,410
Tomorrow she might surface
on a metaverse avatar or
484
00:27:24,410 --> 00:27:26,020
a 3-D-printed ofrenda.
485
00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:31,130
Wherever she appears next,
the argument will follow—holy
486
00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:33,770
mother or cultural homegirl?
487
00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:35,620
Maybe both, maybe neither.
488
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,790
And that tension—the push
and pull over ownership
489
00:27:39,790 --> 00:27:43,490
of meaning—may be her most
enduring miracle of all.
490
00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:49,130
Thank you for joining me on
this episode of Recurrent.
491
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:53,100
This is just the beginning
of season two, so stay tuned.
492
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:56,230
We’ve got new episodes
dropping each week, uncovering
493
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:58,570
more of the cultural
heritage that surrounds us.
494
00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:02,760
Recurrent was written
and produced by me,
495
00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:05,940
Jaime, with creative
support from Zoe Goldman.
496
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,710
Our executive producer is
Christopher Sprinkle, and
497
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:13,620
for transcripts, images, and
additional resources for this
498
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,510
episode, visit getty dot edu
slash podcasts slash recurrent.
00:00:01,350 --> 00:00:02,730
Announcer: This is a Getty
2
00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:07,130
podcast.
3
00:00:07,130 --> 00:00:09,140
Jaime Roque: Santa
Fe, New Mexico, 2001.
4
00:00:10,650 --> 00:00:14,820
The Museum of International
Folk Art unveils a new digital
5
00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:16,619
photograph called Our Lady.
6
00:00:16,619 --> 00:00:19,251
[Upbeat music begins]
7
00:00:19,251 --> 00:00:21,005
Spotlights flare.
8
00:00:21,005 --> 00:00:24,439
Familiar Virgen de
Guadalupe symbols—gold
9
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,349
rays, teal cloak, crescent
moon, bed of roses—frame
10
00:00:29,380 --> 00:00:31,150
an unfamiliar center.
11
00:00:31,950 --> 00:00:36,019
A young mujer, hands on
hips, chin lifted, and
12
00:00:36,019 --> 00:00:39,050
robe parted to reveal
rose-patterned bikini bottoms.
13
00:00:39,510 --> 00:00:42,120
Below her, an
angel—bare-chested,
14
00:00:42,260 --> 00:00:45,349
arms wide—unfurls
monarch-orange wings.
15
00:00:45,709 --> 00:00:45,839
[angry crowd yells]
16
00:00:48,689 --> 00:00:51,000
Outraged Catholics
say the artist has
17
00:00:51,019 --> 00:00:51,890
crossed a sacred line.
18
00:00:52,629 --> 00:00:56,739
The local archbishop brands the
print “blasphemous”; protesters
19
00:00:56,740 --> 00:01:00,590
clutching rosaries encircle
the museum, and even a bishop
20
00:01:00,610 --> 00:01:02,259
across the Atlantic weighs in.
21
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:03,300
Why?
22
00:01:03,710 --> 00:01:06,670
Because a queer Mexicana
artist named Alma López
23
00:01:06,679 --> 00:01:09,980
dared to re-imagine a
centuries-old sacred icon
24
00:01:10,369 --> 00:01:13,140
as the strong nurturing
woman she grew up with.
25
00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:14,820
Alma López: I was just
like, wait a second.
26
00:01:15,010 --> 00:01:15,900
I’m Mexicana!
27
00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:17,940
I grew up with this image.
28
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,049
Roque: So what is it about this
Virgen de Guadalupe—around for
29
00:01:25,050 --> 00:01:29,359
nearly five centuries—that some
venerate as holy, while others
30
00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:30,940
wear like a cultural badge?
31
00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:35,240
Virgin de Guadalupe on bikinis,
on skateboards, t-shirts,
32
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,550
hats, bumper stickers, tattoos.
33
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,460
These aren’t relics;
they’re identifiers—markers
34
00:01:41,470 --> 00:01:42,370
of who we are.
35
00:01:43,739 --> 00:01:47,410
To understand why that single
print made so much noise,
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00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:52,010
we need to step back—before
Photoshop, before murals,
37
00:01:52,410 --> 00:01:53,920
before Mexico itself.
38
00:01:58,340 --> 00:02:01,160
Hello my name is Jaime
and Welcome to season
39
00:02:01,210 --> 00:02:02,090
two of ReCurrent.
40
00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:13,623
[Upbeat music ends]
41
00:02:13,623 --> 00:02:14,750
[church bells chime] From
basilica candles in Mexico
42
00:02:14,750 --> 00:02:17,600
City to corner-store walls
on Whittier Boulevard,
43
00:02:17,989 --> 00:02:20,519
and the glass case of my
parents’ jewelry shop where
44
00:02:20,939 --> 00:02:23,640
her medallions outsold
every crucifix and charm
45
00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:27,120
we carried: La Virgen de
Guadalupe is everywhere.
46
00:02:27,630 --> 00:02:31,210
And my family wasn’t Catholic,
but in a Mexican family, someone
47
00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:34,109
in the family always is and
you still learn the rules:
48
00:02:34,690 --> 00:02:36,409
respect the Virgen de Guadalupe.
49
00:02:37,370 --> 00:02:39,989
My aunt kept a framed Virgen
de Guadalupe in the living
50
00:02:39,989 --> 00:02:44,010
room and my cousin—the king of
filthy language—would not drop
51
00:02:44,030 --> 00:02:46,030
a single cuss word in that room.
52
00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:51,000
Step outside and it was “F-bomb
city”, but in front of her?
53
00:02:51,380 --> 00:02:52,619
Total respect.
54
00:02:53,310 --> 00:02:56,940
As I got older I started
spotting her everywhere in LA.
55
00:02:56,949 --> 00:03:00,710
Nothing religious in nature,
just a “Cool, I know my peeps
56
00:03:00,710 --> 00:03:04,710
are nearby”. At the same
time, I started to look at the
57
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,700
Virgen de Guadalupe as like
this cool art that represented
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00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:12,429
heritage for me. Heritage
that doesn’t just sit in a
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00:03:12,430 --> 00:03:14,110
gallery or in an archive.
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00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:17,870
It hangs off a rear view
mirror, sits on a wall and gets
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00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,670
carried around on a necklace.
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00:03:20,310 --> 00:03:22,920
Places that are familiar
to me, and places that I
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00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:26,150
didn’t know at the time is
where heritage can be found.
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00:03:26,909 --> 00:03:30,649
So how did a miracle born on a
hillside end up silk screened
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00:03:30,649 --> 00:03:34,569
on polyester, and still sparks
both prayers and protest?
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00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:37,730
Let’s return to where
the story began.
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00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:44,709
[Upbeat music begins]
68
00:03:44,709 --> 00:03:45,040
December 9, 1531.
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00:03:45,250 --> 00:03:49,210
Dawn on Tepeyac Hill near
the new capital of New Spain.
70
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,519
A Nahuatl convert,
Juan Diego, hears birds
71
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:53,519
that sound like bells.
72
00:03:54,340 --> 00:03:58,500
A brown-skinned woman wrapped
in stars speaks Náhuatl:
73
00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:03,320
“Build me a temple here.” Roses
bloom in winter; her image
74
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,820
spontaneously appears on his
cactus-fiber cloak, his tilma.
75
00:04:06,829 --> 00:04:10,739
The pigments never fade,
and the fibers never rot.
76
00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:14,000
The Catholic Church
recognized this as an
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00:04:14,010 --> 00:04:15,540
apparition of the Virgin Mary.
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00:04:16,450 --> 00:04:18,720
But for the Indigenous
peoples of central Mexico,
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00:04:19,580 --> 00:04:22,670
her appearance echoed
older sacred traditions.
80
00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:25,400
The site itself had been
dedicated to Tonantzin,
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00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,649
a maternal deity in
the Mexica worldview.
82
00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,700
So the figure known as Our Lady
of Guadalupe came to be seen as
83
00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:37,460
a blend of traditions, connected
to the Virgin Mary, yet shaped
84
00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:40,590
by the spiritual and cultural
languages of both Europe
85
00:04:40,690 --> 00:04:42,360
and the Indigenous Americas.
86
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,000
Guadalupe is hybrid from
birth: Indigenous and
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00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,430
European, a symbol of both
conquest and survival.
88
00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:54,070
Five centuries later she’s
still remixed: rebel banners,
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00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,139
freeway murals, corner
candles, soccer match-day kits.
90
00:04:58,730 --> 00:05:02,320
La Virgen de Guadalupe’s first
apparition happened outdoors,
91
00:05:02,750 --> 00:05:05,999
before any church wall was
built for her—and it felt
92
00:05:06,010 --> 00:05:10,870
like a pure miracle yet also
a deliberate, politically
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00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,500
charged sign—and ever since,
she turns up where her people
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00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:18,180
are, more often outside
church walls than within.
95
00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:22,369
Spain won México with swords
but completely conquered
96
00:05:22,370 --> 00:05:23,690
the territory with story.
97
00:05:24,390 --> 00:05:27,920
In 1531 the empire needed
a miracle both Spaniards
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00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,340
and Nahuatls would trust.
99
00:05:29,790 --> 00:05:34,339
Guadalupe delivered:
turquoise robe, Aztec sun
100
00:05:34,340 --> 00:05:36,650
rays, European prayer hands.
101
00:05:37,239 --> 00:05:41,069
And yet only Juan Diego, an
Indigenous farmer, saw her.
102
00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:45,450
By the 1600’s, devotion
to Guadalupe had exploded.
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00:05:46,140 --> 00:05:48,950
Artists answered the demand
for replicas with a flood of
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00:05:48,970 --> 00:05:54,390
images—prints, canvases, even
shell-inlay enconchados that
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00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:55,960
shimmered like stained glass.
106
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,620
Many works carried
handwritten notes attesting
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00:05:59,239 --> 00:06:01,800
they were faithful copies
of the sacred tilma.
108
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,770
I guess you can say
she was the first viral
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00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,030
image of the Americas.
110
00:06:07,930 --> 00:06:10,950
Yet not every remix is welcomed.
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00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,600
Alma López found that
out the hard way.
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00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:15,289
López: My
113
00:06:15,290 --> 00:06:16,459
Roque: name is Alma López.
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00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,320
I am a Mexican-born Chicana,
queer visual artist.
115
00:06:22,610 --> 00:06:24,800
Growing up on both sides
of the border, I just
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00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:25,450
saw her everywhere.
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00:06:25,490 --> 00:06:31,449
In, like, house altares
or in the cemetery, the
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00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:34,039
panteon, in churches.
119
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,480
And also in these altares
that were corner altares,
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00:06:38,910 --> 00:06:42,910
you know, at the puestos
for the taxis…here in Los
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00:06:42,910 --> 00:06:47,320
Angeles, I think she was
much more present everywhere.
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00:06:47,969 --> 00:06:50,989
What I would see her is
in the murals, right?
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00:06:51,009 --> 00:06:55,330
Almost any corner, little
market, whether it’s a liquor
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00:06:55,330 --> 00:07:00,390
store, a 99 Cent store, she
is just present everywhere.
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00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,040
Alma’s faith isn’t anchored
to pews and altars—it lives
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00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,840
wherever La Virgen de Guadalupe
shows up on the street.
127
00:07:08,509 --> 00:07:14,370
Then in 1999, just out of grad
school, a headline in the LA
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00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:16,020
Weekly grabs her attention.
129
00:07:16,150 --> 00:07:16,450
López: I
130
00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:22,789
Roque: remember coming upon
a story that basically was
131
00:07:22,789 --> 00:07:27,460
about the Virgen de Guadalupe
murals in South LA and how
132
00:07:27,570 --> 00:07:31,160
the Virgen de Guadalupe murals
were actually being tagged.
133
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,210
It was a shocking thing to
read, like, oh my goodness,
134
00:07:35,270 --> 00:07:39,090
what you think will never
happen in a million, zillion
135
00:07:39,090 --> 00:07:41,380
years is actually happening.
136
00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:44,889
The shock sparks talks with
friends and a reading binge.
137
00:07:45,619 --> 00:07:49,320
One book lands hardest—Goddess
of the Americas,
138
00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:51,080
edited by Ana Castillo.
139
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,590
Inside it, a short essay
by Sandra Cisneros poses a
140
00:07:55,619 --> 00:07:57,769
question Alma can’t shake.
141
00:07:57,810 --> 00:07:58,370
López: What
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00:07:58,690 --> 00:08:04,299
Roque: would I see if I
raised the dress, right,
143
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:05,620
of the Virgen de Guadalupe?
144
00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,210
Like I lift the dresses of
my Barbies, what would I see?
145
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,500
And so it’s like deep
questions, but it’s deep
146
00:08:13,570 --> 00:08:17,340
because I think she’s really
trying to find a more real
147
00:08:17,349 --> 00:08:18,810
connection to that image.
148
00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:22,650
I was relating to the essay
and Sanda Cisneros was
149
00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:23,592
relating to the Virgen, right?
150
00:08:23,592 --> 00:08:27,770
And so would I see a body
that I can identify with,
151
00:08:28,050 --> 00:08:30,790
is her skin a brown skin?
152
00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,900
Does she have breasts?
153
00:08:33,130 --> 00:08:36,080
And she even says, does she
have a panocha, you know?
154
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,220
Or will she be neutered
like my Barbies?
155
00:08:39,890 --> 00:08:44,200
So when she asks those questions
at the very end, I mean, I was
156
00:08:44,210 --> 00:08:48,740
like a little kid, like a third
grader in class going, ooh, ooh,
157
00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:51,440
ooh, you know, pick me, teacher,
because I know the answer.
158
00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,819
And so my answer at that
moment was, well, she
159
00:08:57,819 --> 00:08:59,520
would be covered in roses.
160
00:08:59,630 --> 00:09:00,850
And why roses?
161
00:09:00,910 --> 00:09:06,110
Well, roses were the proof and
signature of her apparition,
162
00:09:06,730 --> 00:09:13,510
and so then that’s how the image
came to be covered in roses—the
163
00:09:13,650 --> 00:09:15,260
Our Lady image that I did.
164
00:09:16,099 --> 00:09:19,810
Imagine a postcard-sized
collage, stitched together on an
165
00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:22,040
early 99 version of Photoshop.
166
00:09:22,910 --> 00:09:26,210
In the center, a brown-skinned
woman stands tall,
167
00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:30,180
hands on her hips, roses
guarding breast and pelvis.
168
00:09:30,670 --> 00:09:33,879
The robe she wears is actually
the Aztec moon goddess,
169
00:09:33,910 --> 00:09:36,380
Coyolxāuhqui—a warrior goddess.
170
00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:40,660
Behind her, Guadalupe’s
gold sunburst flares, and
171
00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:44,260
below, a black crescent
moon rests on the wings of a
172
00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:46,600
bare-breasted butterfly-angel.
173
00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:46,810
López: The
174
00:09:46,810 --> 00:09:54,550
Roque: idea for this was that
I wanted to show, you know,
175
00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,830
a Chicana, a Latina, who was
standing, like strong, right,
176
00:10:01,830 --> 00:10:03,160
with her hands on her hip.
177
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,150
I had asked her to stand, like
how a mom or an aunt would
178
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,068
be standing there right in
front of us saying, “Orale
179
00:10:12,068 --> 00:10:15,430
Ya!”, you know? Or “Te voy a
tirar la chancla”, you know.
180
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:20,940
But also, what most
people look at is really
181
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:22,940
the tilt of her head.
182
00:10:22,940 --> 00:10:27,800
Instead of tilting down,
she has this slight tilt up.
183
00:10:28,180 --> 00:10:31,730
Alma named the piece Our
Lady, making it clear
184
00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:36,230
she meant Guadalupe, but
re-imagining a sacred image
185
00:10:36,270 --> 00:10:38,280
doesn’t come without noise.
186
00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:39,339
[crowd chatter]
187
00:10:39,339 --> 00:10:45,380
Back in New Mexico, Alma’s Our
Lady debuts in a state-museum
188
00:10:45,380 --> 00:10:49,280
show called “Cyber Arte,”
Hours later the region’s
189
00:10:49,290 --> 00:10:50,910
archbishop is denouncing it.
190
00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:51,220
López: It’s
191
00:10:52,570 --> 00:10:54,670
Roque: archbishop Michael
J. Shehan in Santa Fe, Nuevo
192
00:10:54,739 --> 00:10:58,670
México, who saw our lady
and thought it was like a
193
00:10:58,670 --> 00:11:00,330
tart or a street walker.
194
00:11:00,779 --> 00:11:06,440
When I was getting in trouble—in
Santa Fe, Nuevo México, in
195
00:11:06,530 --> 00:11:11,230
Ireland, and different places,
it was the Catholic church,
196
00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:14,509
like officials in the Catholic
church who were coming after me
197
00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:19,059
saying that I had no right to
this image that, that I needed
198
00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:23,470
a letter from my priest to see
if I really was a Catholic.
199
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:27,360
And so I remember thinking,
wait a second, I’m Méxicana;
200
00:11:27,390 --> 00:11:29,310
I grew up with this image.
201
00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:34,749
Virgen de Guadalupe and I, we’re
practically home girls, right?
202
00:11:35,209 --> 00:11:39,550
Because, I mean, we are
Méxicanas, we're brown-skinned,
203
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,240
we are chaparritas,
you know, whatever!
204
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:42,940
Roque: Alma’s
205
00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:47,680
line opens a 500-year struggle
over who owns Guadalupe’s image.
206
00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:51,420
Five centuries after Spaniards
draped the Aztec Tonantzin
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00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:55,500
in European silk, Alma drapes
La Virgen de Guadalupe in
208
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:59,509
digital roses—another round
in the never-ending fight over
209
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,100
who owns cultural icons and
who gets to reinterpret them.
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00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:03,280
López: We
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00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,500
Roque: have the
image, so it’s real.
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00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:11,340
The Catholic Church stole
her from the Indigenous
213
00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:17,450
peoples and then gives her
back to the community as
214
00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:19,170
if they are the owners.
215
00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:21,980
She is an activist
and a revolutionary.
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00:12:22,220 --> 00:12:26,580
First of all, we see her
in 1810 during the Mexican
217
00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:27,810
independence from Spain.
218
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,180
Father Hidalgo carries
her as the flag.
219
00:12:32,350 --> 00:12:36,510
And then, 100 years later,
during the Mexican Revolution
220
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,970
against the Porfirio
Diaz regime, the Zapata
221
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:46,129
and Pancho Villa carried her
into the pueblos and then
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00:12:46,170 --> 00:12:50,789
also here in the U.S. with the
United Farm Workers, right?
223
00:12:51,339 --> 00:12:54,780
Cesar Chavez and co-founding
member Dolores Huerta.
224
00:12:55,560 --> 00:13:00,380
But I think that the spirit
of activist and revolutionary
225
00:13:00,730 --> 00:13:05,150
started with Juan Diego and
his Indigenous community
226
00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:09,930
.
Not everyone calling her art
“blasphemy” is an archbishop
227
00:13:09,939 --> 00:13:10,970
with a press release.
228
00:13:11,630 --> 00:13:15,360
Everyday believers also had
a lot to say about *Our Lady.
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00:13:16,110 --> 00:13:17,070
*Here is one of them:
230
00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:21,869
Woman: “Dear artist: Mi familia
y yo could not believe what
231
00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:24,240
you have done by painting
Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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00:13:25,729 --> 00:13:29,540
This is not culture class;
this is culture trash.
233
00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:33,580
Your painting has attacked
the Mother of the Americas.
234
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:36,790
Would you have painted
your own mother this way?
235
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:38,970
This is our Mother.
236
00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:42,650
It was your way of calling
attention to yourself and
237
00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:46,629
disgracing Our Lady of Guadalupe
and our people—la raza.
238
00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:50,280
Mi familia will keep
you in our prayers.
239
00:13:50,820 --> 00:13:53,460
For you have a gift from
God, but you have misused
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00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:55,759
it by painting our Mother
in a disgraceful way.
241
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,050
God bless you, The
Garcia Familia”
242
00:14:01,470 --> 00:14:04,130
Roque: Alma received many
emails and letters after
243
00:14:04,130 --> 00:14:07,320
that, but the argument
never really came to an end.
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00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:14,420
[Upbeat
245
00:14:16,830 --> 00:14:17,725
music begins]
246
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,020
Two decades, three popes, and
many shares on social media
247
00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:26,930
later, Alma’s Our Lady still
splits opinion, and sometimes
248
00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:29,750
right at the merch table
where Guadalupe is being sold.
249
00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:35,240
So I head to downtown LA to see
how the debate sounds in 2025.
250
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,829
Manuel’s storefront, which he
operates with his wife, is a
251
00:14:38,830 --> 00:14:43,400
shrine in mini-form: rows of
t-shirts, poster prints, stacks
252
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,300
of prayer books, and every
item holds the image of the
253
00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:51,460
classic brown-skin Guadalupe
in her star-flecked cloak.
254
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:53,280
[crowd chatter and street music]
255
00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:56,260
I asked him if I could
get his thoughts on
256
00:14:56,350 --> 00:14:57,800
Alma’s Our Lady artwork.
257
00:14:58,730 --> 00:15:02,000
The longer he stared,
the more upset he became.
258
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:04,110
Manuel: Eh eh, lamentablemente
lamentablemente, tu en
259
00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:10,280
primer lugar, la Virgen
nunca se vistió así.
260
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:10,970
Interpreter: [Manuel continues
to speak in Spanish] That’s
261
00:15:10,980 --> 00:15:13,880
really disappointing; the
Virgin never dressed like that.
262
00:15:14,689 --> 00:15:16,579
You don’t play with
the sacred—it’s like
263
00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:17,700
insulting your own mother.
264
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,540
What a shame they
do things like that.
265
00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:23,650
By doing things like that,
this woman is offending her,
266
00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:25,250
and her end will be sad.
267
00:15:26,859 --> 00:15:29,015
You should never
disrespect sacred images.
268
00:15:29,015 --> 00:15:34,330
Roque: [to Manuel] Pues en
eso estoy haciendo historias
269
00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:34,967
aver como, pues....”
270
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:39,300
For Manuel, the Virgen isn’t a
vehicle for self-expression; to
271
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,560
remix her robe is to cross a
line that can’t be unpainted.
272
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,290
Manuel guards the Virgen like
family, unchanged, untouchable.
273
00:15:58,670 --> 00:16:01,390
Yet just a few miles east,
another husband-and-wife
274
00:16:01,390 --> 00:16:03,479
team is running a
different kind of tienda.
275
00:16:05,410 --> 00:16:09,040
At Espacio 1839 in Boyle
Heights, La Virgen still
276
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:12,760
graces the merch—but here
she’s screen-printed on soccer
277
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,710
jerseys, remixed into vinyl
stickers, stitched into denim
278
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:20,560
jackets, even painted on a
seven-foot plywood cut-out
279
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:21,859
that roams the neighborhood.
280
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:28,060
Same mother, same
love—printed in a whole new
281
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:31,450
palette.
282
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:31,950
[on the street] Hey Nico!
283
00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:36,580
Walk into Espacio 1839
in Boyle Heights and
284
00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:38,200
every inch tells a story.
285
00:16:39,010 --> 00:16:42,349
On one jersey La Virgen
sits front and center on an
286
00:16:43,310 --> 00:16:46,469
LAFC shirt, the Los Angeles
Football Club: a colonial
287
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,910
miracle printed onto a
21st-century supporters’ kit.
288
00:16:50,290 --> 00:16:51,850
Nico Avina: Like you’re saying,
it’s part of the culture,
289
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:56,500
you know, but then also the
significance of the foundation
290
00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:57,429
of Los Angeles, right?
291
00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,510
Nuestra Reina Señora
de los Ángeles right?
292
00:16:59,670 --> 00:17:02,500
Roque: So Nico is
bridging two LA staples.
293
00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,759
Avina: You have a lot of
people that have been or are
294
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,310
into soccer, but now, you
know, because I’m adding this
295
00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:12,450
cultural element, it’s sort of
like this fusion of, like, man,
296
00:17:12,830 --> 00:17:16,290
I'm not only like repping the
sport that I like, but I’m also
297
00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:20,620
representing part of my culture
with the imagery that you’re
298
00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:22,470
incorporating into it, you know?
299
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:23,280
So it’s dope.
300
00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:26,400
Roque: Back in Boyle Heights,
Nico Avina doesn’t just
301
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,190
screen La Virgen de Guadalupe
onto soccer kits; he puts
302
00:17:30,190 --> 00:17:34,030
her on buildings–fighting
displacement one wall at a time.
303
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,770
Avina: You expose their humanity
using these images, you know,
304
00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:46,550
and so for me…like this mural
that I have of La Virgen
305
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:50,910
reading an eviction notice.
306
00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:53,900
Roque: Picture a plywood
cut-out of La Virgen de
307
00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:56,900
Guadalupe that towers
seven-and-a-half feet high.
308
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,340
Her scarlet robe and turquoise
veil are unmistakable, but
309
00:18:01,370 --> 00:18:04,730
instead of a shower of roses,
she’s clutching a bright-red
310
00:18:04,730 --> 00:18:08,890
eviction notice, eyes cast down
as if she’s just been served.
311
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:13,159
Eastside artist Nico Avina
calls the roaming shrine “Lupita
312
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,590
Was Displaced,” and since
2018 he’s been taking her to
313
00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:21,530
every Boyle Heights address
erased by gentrification: the
314
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:24,850
rubble where the old Brooklyn
Theater stood, the ghost
315
00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:28,520
lot of Jonson’s Market, the
leveled Pico-Aliso projects.
316
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,500
Each stop is a quiet protest.
317
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:37,200
Avina: That whole conversation
is about, you know, once
318
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,240
the demographics of a
community change, so
319
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,730
does the artwork, right?
320
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:44,060
Like the murals that were
painted in the communities
321
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:47,819
or in the barrio, was because
people had respect and they
322
00:18:47,819 --> 00:18:48,949
wouldn’t write over La Virgen.
323
00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:51,009
At least they wouldn’t before.
324
00:18:51,370 --> 00:18:56,850
So before, you know, you had
them painted on garage doors
325
00:18:56,850 --> 00:19:00,820
on the side of apartments,
on liquor stores, you know,
326
00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:02,690
and it was, they were there
327
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:06,509
because people wouldn't
write over La Virgen.
328
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:08,000
Right?
329
00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:10,580
But the demographics of the
community start changing.
330
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:11,830
So does the artwork.
331
00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:13,980
So does that artwork
that represents that
332
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:14,970
community, the barrio.
333
00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:20,480
And so I did that piece in
reference to that, right?
334
00:19:20,529 --> 00:19:25,540
Like that it’s…once the
demographics of a community
335
00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:28,210
change, so does the art that
represents that community.
336
00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:30,480
So, the murals
get displaced too.
337
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:34,330
Roque: An image that once
evangelized now serves as a
338
00:19:34,330 --> 00:19:37,370
warning: if they can evict
La Virgen de Guadalupe,
339
00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:38,920
they can evict you too.
340
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:41,920
Avina: So it’s not only a tool
for the colonizer, but it's also
341
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,549
a tool as an artist to be able
to share, um, the similarities
342
00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:49,450
of what your stories
that you used against us,
343
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,640
and how we as a people
are going through this.
344
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,520
And now you’re just ignoring us.
345
00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:57,030
Right?
346
00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:03,139
The displacement, the constant
attacks on migration, you know?
347
00:20:04,089 --> 00:20:08,470
The Virgen for me represents
a mother who migrated for the
348
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:10,360
safeguard of her child, right?
349
00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:14,110
There’s that sort of respect for
that mother figure, you know,
350
00:20:14,110 --> 00:20:17,554
that mother figure in the barrio
that folks have respect for.
351
00:20:17,554 --> 00:20:17,596
[voice fades out]
352
00:20:17,610 --> 00:20:17,890
[Mariachi
353
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:23,580
music plays]
354
00:20:27,930 --> 00:20:30,460
Roque: If Nico plants a
roaming Virgen on every
355
00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:34,350
scraped-clean lot, Oscar
Rodríguez builds his altar in
356
00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,320
your feed: handle @lavirgencita.
357
00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:41,410
He launched the page the
moment he realized Virgen de
358
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:44,400
Guadalupe murals were being
tagged over or demolished
359
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,850
as Boyle Heights gentrified.
360
00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:50,380
Each photo freezes La Virgen
before she disappears and pins
361
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:53,780
a digital map of places where
our community can still see
362
00:20:53,780 --> 00:20:55,659
her and still feel at home.
363
00:20:55,670 --> 00:21:00,650
Oscar Rodriguez: She’s more
like a mother, you know—a
364
00:21:00,659 --> 00:21:02,073
safe space for Latinos.
365
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,490
Roque: We met at Mariachi
Plaza and took a slow walk
366
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:07,780
to see the neighborhood’s
Virgen de Guadalupe murals.
367
00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:12,740
Oscar led me to one he’d already
posted on @lavirgencita—a
368
00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:16,100
blue-and-rose Guadalupe
now almost completely
369
00:21:16,109 --> 00:21:19,090
buried under graffiti
that’s piled up over time.
370
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,750
Only her glowing face
peeks through the spray
371
00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:25,040
paint, as if she’s saying
she won’t disappear.
372
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,600
Oscar tells me this is why he
records her: even a saint can
373
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,950
fade if no one keeps track.
374
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,989
Rodriguez: When I ever see her
around, you know, whenever it’s
375
00:21:32,989 --> 00:21:35,070
in a mural, whenever it’s on
somebody’s shirt or tattoo,
376
00:21:35,089 --> 00:21:37,570
or like I said, you know, a
bottle or a bottle opener,
377
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:39,350
it makes me feel at home.
378
00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:41,210
It makes me feel
I’m in a safe space.
379
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:42,350
I’m around my community.
380
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:44,600
I’m around the people, that
speak, sound like—sound
381
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,100
and look like me.
382
00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:51,839
And, you know, and it gives me…I
feel like I see a piece of home.
383
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,450
So, you know, it makes
me…it makes my heart, you
384
00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:56,390
know, smile and like I said,
and it makes me feel safe.
385
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:59,430
And I know that I’m in
my community, you know.
386
00:21:59,570 --> 00:22:03,600
She travels like memory
from wall to shirt, from
387
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,400
stickers to even skin, you
know, people get tatted.
388
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,920
People carry with her
not just as devotion, but
389
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,440
as a badge of identity.
390
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,190
Wearing her on your shirt or
getting her as a tattoo—it’s
391
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:15,090
a way of keeping her with
you in a world that doesn’t
392
00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:16,050
always make you feel seen.
393
00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:18,989
Sometimes people say, even
send me messages of people
394
00:22:18,989 --> 00:22:21,045
praying or some people saying
like, hey, you know what?
395
00:22:21,069 --> 00:22:23,679
My brother passed away,
you know, and seeing
396
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:24,400
this reminds me of him.
397
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:25,930
Just like how you
mentioned, you know, when
398
00:22:25,930 --> 00:22:26,670
your mother passed away…
399
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,279
[voice fades out]
400
00:22:35,739 --> 00:22:38,210
Roque: Oscar’s final words
take me back to Olvera
401
00:22:38,210 --> 00:22:40,060
Street—season one fieldwork.
402
00:22:40,819 --> 00:22:44,160
I’d wrap interviews then walk
over to sit alone beneath
403
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,290
a sun-bleached Virgen de
Guadalupe at the small Catholic
404
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:48,370
church across the street.
405
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,590
I didn’t pray—I’m not Catholic,
I’m not even religious—but
406
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:57,290
during that time in my life I
was a son just trying to keep it
407
00:22:57,290 --> 00:22:58,830
together after losing his mom.
408
00:22:59,890 --> 00:23:01,910
And that bench was a rest stop.
409
00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:05,910
The street noise, the
vendors, the music—it all
410
00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:08,820
faded just long enough
for me to catch my breath.
411
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,660
The quiet showed
me why she matters.
412
00:23:13,290 --> 00:23:17,590
It isn’t about rules or church;
it’s the small space she
413
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:23,020
opens in the noise, a moment
where grief lets go so you can
414
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,360
breathe, reset, and move on.
415
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,610
The burden stays, but in that
stillness I felt the same gentle
416
00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:33,140
strength my mom once gave me.
417
00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:39,090
For the first time in my
life, I lit a candle for her.
418
00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:39,489
[lighter clicks]
419
00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:46,870
Just like Alma said, La Virgen
de Guadalupe is everywhere
420
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:49,960
in this great open-air
basilica we call Los Angeles.
421
00:23:50,609 --> 00:23:53,740
While working on this
story, I even spotted her
422
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:57,570
four rows ahead of my seat,
pinned to a Dodger-blue cap
423
00:23:57,839 --> 00:24:01,760
in a place they call “Blue
Heaven”: Dodger Stadium.
424
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,110
I approach the guy, Dominic
Wilkins from Santa Maria, CA,
425
00:24:06,110 --> 00:24:10,380
and ask him what he thinks
of Alma López’ Guadalupe.
426
00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:13,980
Dominic Wilkins: It’s not
up to me to judge that.
427
00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:17,790
In the end, it comes
down to the Lord.
428
00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:20,360
Hey, you know what—there
could be some positives
429
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:21,240
toward it, right?
430
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,740
It could be bringing
people to the real thing.
431
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,390
Obviously, like you said,
those images—there’s a
432
00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:30,860
real image behind that.
433
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:36,290
And if that…whatever guides
people closer to God, then I’m
434
00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:37,170
for it, you know what I mean?
435
00:24:38,830 --> 00:24:41,920
Roque: Dominic tips his cap
and slips back into the sea of
436
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,750
Dodger blue, as I make my way
back to my seat I start to take
437
00:24:46,750 --> 00:24:50,199
it all in, the conversation
and the journey I’ve been
438
00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:53,850
on.
439
00:24:59,770 --> 00:25:00,130
[Jazz music plays]
440
00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:03,750
I didn’t have to walk into
a cathedral to meet her.
441
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,060
She found me on corner-store
candles, freeway murals,
442
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,720
polyester jerseys—and
tonight, four rows ahead of
443
00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:13,310
me on a Dodger baseball cap.
444
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,470
From Juan Diego’s tilma to
Alma López’s digital collage,
445
00:25:17,870 --> 00:25:22,339
every generation redraws her
outline, rewrites her story.
446
00:25:22,819 --> 00:25:26,819
And with each redraw the
question changes: not “Is
447
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,120
she sacred?” but “Sacred
to whom—and for what?”.
448
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,440
Is La Virgen de Guadalupe here
as intercessor, or mascot?
449
00:25:36,370 --> 00:25:39,900
The moment an icon slips
outside the sanctuary, its
450
00:25:39,910 --> 00:25:41,040
meaning is up for grabs.
451
00:25:42,029 --> 00:25:44,510
For some she’s still
the mother of God, the
452
00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:45,439
mother of the Americas.
453
00:25:46,609 --> 00:25:49,800
For others she’s abuela’s
warmth, barrio pride,
454
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:55,060
defiance to the system—and
sometimes all at once.
455
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,910
No church gate can keep
her off skateboard decks,
456
00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:02,620
low-rider hoods, Instagram
feeds, swap-meet hoodies,
457
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,870
dollar-store veladoras, or the
gloss of a fresh forearm tattoo.
458
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:12,980
That split—spiritual practice
versus cultural heritage—is
459
00:26:12,980 --> 00:26:13,820
what keeps her alive.
460
00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:18,740
She’s a relic, saint, and
rally flag, and sometimes
461
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:19,600
in the same breath.
462
00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:19,760
López: I
463
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,220
Roque: would look at this
and I would be like, really?
464
00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:25,430
Like, these people think that
they have more of a right
465
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:30,920
than I?...than any of us
Chicanos or Chicanas, to be
466
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,650
able to relate in a real way
just the way Sandra Cisneros
467
00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:38,210
was relating, or trying to
connect and make a significant
468
00:26:38,210 --> 00:26:39,250
connection to the Virgen.
469
00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:40,060
Really?
470
00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:43,270
So if anything I was
just like, really?
471
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,450
That’s the pattern I keep
finding: power flows to
472
00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:48,780
the hand that redraws her.
473
00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:52,580
Juan Diego carried roses,
muralists carried spray
474
00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:54,750
cans, Alma carried pixels.
475
00:26:55,670 --> 00:27:00,050
Each time, the image shifts—from
colonial saint to living protest
476
00:27:00,090 --> 00:27:01,400
to cultural badge of honor.
477
00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,170
The saint doesn’t
transform herself—we do.
478
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,250
Every new technology cracks
the meaning a bit wider.
479
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:12,200
Each remix nudges
her along a spectrum.
480
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:15,950
Five centuries on, La
Virgen de Guadalupe is still
481
00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:19,190
in motion—traveling with
migrants, sparking art shows,
482
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:20,340
fueling protest chants.
483
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,410
Tomorrow she might surface
on a metaverse avatar or
484
00:27:24,410 --> 00:27:26,020
a 3-D-printed ofrenda.
485
00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:31,130
Wherever she appears next,
the argument will follow—holy
486
00:27:31,130 --> 00:27:33,770
mother or cultural homegirl?
487
00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:35,620
Maybe both, maybe neither.
488
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,790
And that tension—the push
and pull over ownership
489
00:27:39,790 --> 00:27:43,490
of meaning—may be her most
enduring miracle of all.
490
00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:49,130
Thank you for joining me on
this episode of Recurrent.
491
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:53,100
This is just the beginning
of season two, so stay tuned.
492
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:56,230
We’ve got new episodes
dropping each week, uncovering
493
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:58,570
more of the cultural
heritage that surrounds us.
494
00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:02,760
Recurrent was written
and produced by me,
495
00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:05,940
Jaime, with creative
support from Zoe Goldman.
496
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,710
Our executive producer is
Christopher Sprinkle, and
497
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:13,620
for transcripts, images, and
additional resources for this
498
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,510
episode, visit getty dot edu
slash podcasts slash recurrent.
