Episode 37: Forensic Interviewing 101: What Mandated Reporters Should Ask |Psyched OUT!

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to Psyched Out, a podcast focused on all things
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psychology, like psychological thrillers, unethical experiments,
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true crime, cults, and more.
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I am your host, Emily, and for those who don't know, I have a bachelor's degree
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in forensic psychology and a background in law enforcement.
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This helps me provide unique insight on some of the world's most famous cases, movies, and events.
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In today's episode, we'll be doing something a little bit different,
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and we're actually going to be talking about the psychology surrounding forensic
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interviews, especially in relation to children, and what to ask as a mandated reporter.
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So in my last episode, whether that be YouTube or the podcast,
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you guys know that I had said, you know, I probably wasn't going to do an episode
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this week, and I didn't intend to.
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But I was able to go to a forensic interview training, which is why I wasn't
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going to do the episode, because I was quite busy.
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But I learned so much useful information that I would be remiss if I didn't
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share some of it with you guys.
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I know a lot of you are probably teachers, coaches.
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You guys work in organizations directly with children. Maybe you work in a daycare.
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Maybe you're a doctor. Maybe you're a nurse. This stuff is going to be very
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useful and very helpful to you guys. So while it helps better me as a law enforcement
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officer, it can definitely help you guys if, heaven forbid, you're in a situation
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where you have to report something or a child discloses something to you.
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So I have some of the handouts that I got at the class as well as the notes
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I took in my notebook. So I'm going to just kind of walk through some of the
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stuff that was talked about.
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And just to get an idea of who the instructor was, her name is Jen Ingalls.
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And this was held in Chandler, Arizona.
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And she is a forensic interviewer supervisor with the Child Help Children's Center.
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She has 18 years of forensic interview experience.
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And before that, she actually worked with DCS as well. So she's seen quite a few interviews.
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Different work environments where forensic interviewing is very beneficial for,
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you know, investigations and things like that.
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So without further ado, we're going to look at my notes. And I do apologize.
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This is not as scripted as normal.
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This is very much going to be off the cuff, but I will try to be as articulate as possible.
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So when it comes to forensic interviewing and that type of thing,
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at the end of the day, you as a mandated reporter are really not going to be
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doing the interview in and of itself.
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But you can do a lot of things beforehand that are really going to help out
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the forensic interviewer.
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First and foremost, you're going to want to have a neutral perspective on whatever
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it is that you're being told, which can be very difficult, especially if it's
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in something that has to do with felony child abuse or sex abuse of a child.
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That's something that gets a lot of people very heated, very passionate for
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obvious reasons, right? We want to protect kids. We want to look out for them.
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So there's no harm in that.
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That said, you want to be as level-headed and as calm and collected as possible
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because that's going to be creating a safer, more comfortable environment for
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the child if they are disclosing information to you.
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On top of that, you really want to focus on open-ended questions,
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which is something that we'll get into a little bit later with the handout that I was given.
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I myself struggle a lot with open-ended questions. I also struggle a lot with
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this or that questions. Did this happen or did that happen?
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And the problem with that is it really limits and narrows what the child is able to say.
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So the goal in general is to allow a kid to narrate as much as possible.
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It allows them to recall things more freely. They're able to express themselves
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easier, and they're not trying to satisfy a this or that question or a yes or
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no question. Like, it's just very closed off, very limited.
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And the four biggest things that you want answered, and the four things that
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really you're probably only ever going to ask them is, Who did it?
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How did they do it? What happened? Where did it happen?
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Things like that. And this was something that she very clearly like she reiterated
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fantastic. The instructor, I don't know if I said her name is Jen Ingalls.
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And she said, you know, even with law enforcement, you want to limit how much
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you talk to the kid about the crime and about the incident, because like,
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obviously, that's going to be very traumatic for the child.
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And the more people that ask them about it and have them relive that event,
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the more trauma you're doing to the kid.
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On top of that, if, you know, let's say you as the mandated reporter who are a counselor,
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ask all of these detailed questions and it goes to law enforcement and then
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the cops are asking all of these detailed questions and then it goes to detectives
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and they're asking all these detailed questions,
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the kid is going to be more likely to close themselves off out of frustration
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that, you know, I've already answered this six times. Why the hell are you asking me that again?
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So really, the only information that you want is who did it.
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So you would ask the kid, like, Tell me who did that to you.
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They can narrate. That's an open-ended question. Tell me what happened.
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They can narrate. Tell me where did this happen. Let them tell you where it
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occurred. Tell me when did this happen.
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Now, for the most part, like you don't ever want to ask more than that because
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then you get into situations where you might be leading them or it's not recorded,
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right? Like you're not going to
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record this at a school, in a counselor's office. So it gets very tricky.
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So if you're able to establish the who, what, where, and when,
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and including the how, that's all the information that you really need to pass
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on to DCS and to law enforcement.
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You don't need to ask much follow-up questions. Now, there is one caveat with
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that, which is like if you ask a kid what happened and they say,
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oh, well, Uncle Sam touched me, you're going to have to ask a follow-up question later.
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Really defining what that touch was, right? Because like they could be talking
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about a touch on the arm, you know? And in that case, that's not a big deal.
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That's not something to report.
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So it's okay to say, tell me about the touch or how did Uncle Sam touch you?
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And then they can, you know, elaborate and narrate a little bit more.
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But Ingalls was very, very clear that, you know, once you get that information,
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stop, don't ask follow-up questions because you don't want to re-traumatize
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the child, and you don't want to muddy the waters for the investigation.
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So getting that information is super, super important.
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Sometimes it's hard to get that information from a kid.
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And sometimes, you know, let's say you're being told third party,
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right? Like little Susie told little Jimmy, and now little Jimmy's telling you.
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And little Jimmy may not know the details. It's okay to go to little Susie and
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ask just those questions. And once you have that information,
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go and report it to whatever designated parties you are supposed to report it to.
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So again, limiting the traumatic nature of it, but also doing your job as a
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mandated reporter. And you'll probably get a lot of good detail and information
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if you're using the open-ended questions and letting the kid narrate.
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So you probably won't need a whole lot of follow-up in the first place.
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Now, one thing that I thought was particularly interesting, because it gets
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a little complex is that a lot of places try to do the forensic interview first
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before they do any type of medical examination.
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And the way that I have always done it where I work is you it's very situational. Right.
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So just for for clarification. Right. If this is something that happened two
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days ago, obviously you're going to want to get that medical examination done
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sooner rather than later, because that's important and that's pressing as far as time goes.
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Now, if it happened two years ago, medical examination, one,
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isn't going to do a whole lot and two is probably like.
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Not necessary. So then you're going to want to focus more on the forensic interview.
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Now, the reason the forensic interview is prioritized in some cases over the
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medical examination is that the child's not in imminent danger.
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So let's say that it's a split custody situation, right?
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You have mom and dad and dad has kid for a week, then mom has kid for a week and dad's the abuser.
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So now kids with mom for a week, that child's no longer in imminent danger of
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being abused by the father. So you can slow things down a little bit,
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set up the forensic interview, and then have the medical examination done.
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Sometimes you can do that simultaneously.
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Now, the reason the forensic interview is so important to do before the medical
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examination is you can get some of the necessary information and pass that on
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to medical providers ahead of time so they know what to look for.
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That way, they're not asking the kid the same questions that this child has
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already answered. So, again, lowers the trauma of the experience.
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Also, something that I didn't know is that each county should have a specific
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protocol for how a mandated reporter should operate, depending on like what your role is.
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So Maricopa County, which is where Chandler is situated and where the training
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took place, has a very, very robust criteria and policy for,
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well, if X, Y, Z happens, then you do X, Y, Z.
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So I have not looked up the protocol for the county I work with.
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That's something that I'm definitely going to do.
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But go ahead and see if you guys have something like that because it doesn't
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hurt and it can provide a little more resource and guidelines on what you should or shouldn't do.
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The website they gave us in class was az.dcs.gov.
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There may be a similar website for whatever state you live in or whatever county
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you live in. So you might be able to look it up that way.
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Now, something that, you know, at face value makes a lot of sense is that there
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are technically three types of reports.
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So this is if a kid is the one reporting it. So it's not from a third party,
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right? It's not like mom and dad found out that somebody at school was harassing
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and, you know, assaulting kids. So they call law enforcement.
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This is coming from the child themselves.
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So there is the purposeful admission.
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There's the accidental and then there's the prompted.
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And these are called disclosures. So purposeful disclosure, accidental disclosure,
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prompted disclosure. Now, it kind of makes sense when I explain it.
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But just in case you don't know, the purposeful disclosure is that the child
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very much intended to tell somebody.
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The kid said, You know what? I'm ready. This is time. I'm going to tell a trusted adult.
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Makes sense. Then you have the accidental disclosure. And this is something
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like, let's say, you know, a kid's playing house and they let something slip
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about their own personal life and their experience.
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And, you know, you ask them later, oh, well, did you say X, Y and Z?
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And they get, you know, scared or they back off and they're like,
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oh, no, I didn't say that. That could be an accidental disclosure.
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Or a lot of times somebody may tell a friend and say, hey, you know, this happened to me.
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Well, then friend goes and tells a teacher and the initial kid did not intend
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for that information to get back and then be passed on to like DCS or law enforcement.
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So when confronted, they may deny it. So again, another type of accidental disclosure.
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And then lastly, you have prompted disclosure, which is a kid's not going to
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go out of their way to specifically tell you what happened.
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But let's just say you, you know, you see bruises on the kid's body,
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something that's not natural.
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And you pull them aside and you're like, oh, how did you get those bruises?
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And they then disclose like, oh, well, mom and dad beat me up at home.
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That's a prompted disclosure because you kind of had to guide it out of them
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or get the conversation started.
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It wasn't something that they went out of their way to to tell you.
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Now, you can have two types of
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disclosure. So sometimes you can have an accidental and a prompted, right?
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So, you know, little Susie tells little Timmy, who then tells the teacher.
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So teacher goes and talks to little Susie.
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Little Susie did not want that disclosure to get back to the teacher.
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But now that the teacher is going to talk to her, she's going to eventually
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disclose what happened and she's not going to be in denial. So then you can
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have the combination of like accidental disclosure and prompted disclosure and vice versa.
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It's a very fluid type of situation.
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Now, what's what's really interesting to.
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To me is there is a very common perception with like society in general that
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malicious false allegations are far more common than they actually are.
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You see it a lot with custody issues where it's like, oh, well,
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mom's coaching little Jimmy to say X, Y, Z about dad.
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The chances of that happening, while possible, are very slim to none.
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And in most cases, I would say 99 percent of cases, and I can't remember the
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specific number she used, but it was something similar to that.
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There is no malicious intent behind what the child is disclosing.
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So take it at face value, because at some point it's going to come out,
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you know, whether there is or is not evidence.
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If it's properly investigated and there's a shit ton of evidence to back up
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what was said, great. If there's nothing there and it ends up being a malicious
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accusation, okay, cool.
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But given the statistics, it all needs to be treated like it is a truthful telling
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of events. Like, the allegations are not made up. It's not like little Jimmy's
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being coached by mom to make dad look bad. Because it's just...
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It's not very, very common. On top of that, and this is something that I didn't know, but what
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Jen Ingalls was saying is that kids a lot of times get labeled as liars because
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they may be kind of wishy-washy on some details.
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First and foremost, kid memories, not as good as adult memories.
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I, in general, don't have a fantastic memory either.
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But kids are more prone to forget things, especially very specific details.
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Details so they may say that they don't remember or they don't recall and then
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in another interview be able to go into detail well sometimes you may suddenly
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remember something and so it wasn't that they lied about not knowing and then
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later pulled that information out of their ass
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they just genuinely didn't know at the time so just because a kid may you know
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get a little confused on some of the details or omit information that does not
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automatically mean that they are lying to you
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that is something that a lot of people can get hung up on,
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and it's important to know that most kids when it comes to something like this
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same with the malicious intent do not go out of their way to try and cause problems,
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do some do that sure but at the end of the day like you're going to be able
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to prove that it's a bullshit a bullshit claim so just understand
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that what may seem weird if it were an adult doing it is not always the same
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as when a kid is doing it because kids and adults very, very different.
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So aside from, like, the inconsistent statements and wishy-washy,
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statements, something that I found particularly alarming but something that
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makes a lot of sense was when Jen Ingalls said that older kids, especially girls, are,
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far more aware of the consequences that come if they were to disclose sexual assault.
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So older girls, teenage girls or adolescent girls,
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are much more likely to deny something when prompted or when asked and much
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more likely to refuse disclosing information because they know DCS can get involved.
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I can get taken away from my family or dad's going to go back to prison.
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And so they are much more likely to be in denial and refuse to cooperate because
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they are more emotionally and socially aware of the potential consequences.
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And that's like really sad, but it's also not something that I found too out
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of left field, right? Like it makes sense when you think about it.
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Girls in general are much more emotionally and socially mature at a younger age than boys are.
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So for girls to figure that out that does make a lot of sense and then she also
00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:39.160
said that boys are more likely to disclose later in life like much much later
00:15:39.160 --> 00:15:43.736
in life and it's usually due to.
00:15:44.557 --> 00:15:48.738
A lot of social barriers. She said that, you know, while society has gotten
00:15:48.738 --> 00:15:52.528
better about a lot of things and recognizing male victims, there's a lot of
00:15:52.528 --> 00:15:58.094
internalized misogyny and toxic masculinity and issues that boys have to go through.
00:15:58.553 --> 00:16:02.498
For instance, a lot of men feel that because they were victimized,
00:16:02.498 --> 00:16:05.410
that makes them weak and they don't want to look weak to other men.
00:16:05.816 --> 00:16:10.428
Or, you know, it may be something where they're ashamed to admit that it happened
00:16:10.428 --> 00:16:15.088
to them because, well, you know, I'm a guy, I'm a boy, that never should have happened to me.
00:16:15.088 --> 00:16:17.718
Like, I should have done this, I should have done that. And that's something
00:16:17.718 --> 00:16:21.691
that girls experience too, but it's a lot more prolific in boys.
00:16:22.178 --> 00:16:26.298
Then you have the mentality a lot of times that gets passed around of,
00:16:26.298 --> 00:16:30.568
oh, well, you were a player. Like, you weren't, you know, sexually assaulted
00:16:30.568 --> 00:16:34.075
by your adult female teacher. You're just a guy who likes cougars.
00:16:34.342 --> 00:16:37.718
And if you've been on the channel, you know that I experienced that type of
00:16:37.718 --> 00:16:40.745
sentiment firsthand when I worked in juvenile detention.
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:48.218
There was a, a boy who had a grown-ass, he said, girlfriend and admitted that
00:16:48.218 --> 00:16:51.921
he had engaged in sexual relations with her. And he was like 15.
00:16:52.385 --> 00:16:55.918
And I told him, you know, she's what, 22, 23, like you're a victim.
00:16:55.918 --> 00:16:58.799
And he fought back and said, no, I'm a player.
00:16:59.096 --> 00:17:03.438
I like older women. So that's another sentiment too. And they may not realize
00:17:03.438 --> 00:17:06.896
until they're older, like, oh, hey, what actually happened to me was wrong.
00:17:07.477 --> 00:17:12.528
And on top of that, there are a lot of boys who, who when they grow up say that
00:17:12.528 --> 00:17:16.782
part of the reason they never disclose the information is because they didn't want to be seen as gay.
00:17:17.496 --> 00:17:23.255
And if you were on my TikTok live when I talked about the Boy Scouts documentary.
00:17:24.095 --> 00:17:27.707
That's that's kind of a real invalid concern. So when the Boy Scouts were having
00:17:27.707 --> 00:17:32.347
all of their issues with, you know, predators being in the Boy Scouts and abusing
00:17:32.347 --> 00:17:34.266
and molesting and assaulting children,
00:17:34.887 --> 00:17:37.967
they said, well, the best solution here is to get rid of all gay people because
00:17:37.967 --> 00:17:39.345
they're the ones that are the predators.
00:17:40.047 --> 00:17:44.617
That was not the case. And so they banned all gay scoutmasters,
00:17:44.617 --> 00:17:49.807
all gay participants, made it this whole homophobic-based issue when it really
00:17:49.807 --> 00:17:53.788
wasn't and the perpetrators were straight, which, surprise.
00:17:54.037 --> 00:17:57.287
So there's still a lot of that lingering rhetoric. And I think that's part of
00:17:57.287 --> 00:18:00.829
the reason, too, why we need to, as a society, understand that,
00:18:01.723 --> 00:18:06.787
one, if you are a boy and you have been molested or assaulted by another man,
00:18:06.787 --> 00:18:09.367
that does not make you gay in any way, shape, or form.
00:18:09.715 --> 00:18:14.325
And if you do realize you're gay, you weren't turned gay because of that experience, okay?
00:18:14.772 --> 00:18:17.947
And on top of that, there's nothing wrong with being gay, you know?
00:18:17.947 --> 00:18:21.517
Like, stuff like that, it's bad.
00:18:21.517 --> 00:18:25.127
It shouldn't have happened, shouldn't have ever occurred in the first place.
00:18:25.127 --> 00:18:28.546
And so it's just really sad to think that that's still something that so many
00:18:28.843 --> 00:18:33.037
boys are afraid of, of being seen as to the point where they won't disclose
00:18:33.037 --> 00:18:35.750
and they will sit with that pain well into adulthood.
00:18:37.615 --> 00:18:45.152
Next on the notes is that some of the things to keep in mind when it comes to
00:18:45.575 --> 00:18:51.138
these forensic interviews is that you also need to establish jurisdiction, right?
00:18:51.138 --> 00:18:56.298
So if little Susie lives in a different county but goes to the county you work
00:18:56.298 --> 00:18:59.035
in for school, but the crime took place in that different county,
00:18:59.308 --> 00:19:03.975
you need to establish with that set of authorities what took place.
00:19:04.405 --> 00:19:07.168
Because if you start with your county, if the event didn't happen,
00:19:07.168 --> 00:19:09.761
they're going to send you somewhere else. So it's better to get ahead of that,
00:19:10.388 --> 00:19:12.757
rather than be thrown around a lot.
00:19:13.303 --> 00:19:17.078
Again, we have written down the who, what, where, when, how,
00:19:17.078 --> 00:19:19.287
all of that, those questions you can ask.
00:19:19.618 --> 00:19:24.478
And then just don't go out of your way to speak to the kid unless it's necessary.
00:19:24.478 --> 00:19:26.520
So like third-party information.
00:19:26.921 --> 00:19:29.510
So let's just say that mom and dad found something out.
00:19:30.393 --> 00:19:36.463
About school official assaulting their kid. Don't go and talk to that kid. Talk to the parents.
00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:40.274
Get as much information from the parents as you can and avoid speaking to that
00:19:40.274 --> 00:19:45.994
kid unless one of those questions, the who, what, where, when, or how, is not answered.
00:19:45.994 --> 00:19:49.344
And even then, only ask the question that wasn't answered. So if you have who,
00:19:49.344 --> 00:19:54.134
what, where, and when answered, only ask the kid how it happened or something
00:19:54.134 --> 00:19:56.843
along those lines for an example.
00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:01.944
And then, And like I said earlier, don't ask a lot of follow-up questions unless it's absolutely
00:20:02.368 --> 00:20:06.350
necessary because, again, if they're having to repeat their story 8,000 times,
00:20:06.623 --> 00:20:10.064
fatigue and frustration are going to set in and they're going to be less likely
00:20:10.064 --> 00:20:12.625
to cooperate and want to participate
00:20:13.049 --> 00:20:14.483
in what's taking place.
00:20:15.110 --> 00:20:23.304
Now, on the psych side of things, you have free recall memory and you have, well, let's see here.
00:20:23.304 --> 00:20:28.654
Yeah, you have free recall memory and then you have recognition questions.
00:20:28.654 --> 00:20:31.939
So free recall memory, what that means is it's a lot more off the cuff.
00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:37.000
It's open ended. It allows for a lot of narration. It's more,
00:20:37.516 --> 00:20:42.664
you know, you fill in the gaps rather than me suggesting to you what took place
00:20:42.664 --> 00:20:44.593
and then you tell me if that's accurate or not.
00:20:45.011 --> 00:20:48.524
And then you have registration questions, which are more yes or no.
00:20:48.524 --> 00:20:50.049
So close-ended questions.
00:20:50.664 --> 00:20:56.824
They're very pointed and they are more in reference to like very specific identifiable
00:20:56.824 --> 00:21:00.762
markers. So for both of these, let's use the example of a birthday party, right?
00:21:01.337 --> 00:21:05.614
So if you're like hey tell me about your your birthday that's more of a free
00:21:05.614 --> 00:21:09.916
recall situation where the person is going to just openly tell you like oh
00:21:10.276 --> 00:21:13.914
at 12 o'clock all of my family came over my uncle so-and-so was there my aunt
00:21:13.914 --> 00:21:16.865
so-and-so was there at 3 p.m we had presents blah blah blah
00:21:17.236 --> 00:21:21.174
whereas registration questions if you're asking a kid like did you have cake
00:21:21.174 --> 00:21:23.198
at your birthday party they're going to say yes or no,
00:21:23.657 --> 00:21:26.288
oh did you open presents yes no um.
00:21:27.008 --> 00:21:30.392
But those are things that kids associate with birthday parties, right?
00:21:30.700 --> 00:21:34.027
So that's where the registration comes from. Like they are going to say yes,
00:21:34.027 --> 00:21:36.760
and they're going to recognize that cake is part of the birthday party,
00:21:37.044 --> 00:21:41.657
but it's not going to allow them to extrapolate on the narrative and the series
00:21:41.657 --> 00:21:43.761
of events that took place.
00:21:44.446 --> 00:21:50.987
Another thing that Jen Ingalls was very, very adamant about is that some of
00:21:50.987 --> 00:21:54.857
the only times that you should ever interview a child for those specific questions,
00:21:54.857 --> 00:21:58.127
who, what, where, when and how is if the kid is verbal.
00:21:58.127 --> 00:22:00.993
So if the kid is not verbal, don't get involved with that at all.
00:22:01.376 --> 00:22:06.007
Get as much information as you can from the reporting party because that complicates
00:22:06.007 --> 00:22:07.564
things a lot in and of itself.
00:22:08.547 --> 00:22:11.597
And then if you haven't established those questions already,
00:22:11.597 --> 00:22:12.907
establish those questions.
00:22:13.662 --> 00:22:20.690
And if you can use a lot of like exact quotes.
00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:27.876
So if kid says, Uncle Sammy did this to me. Use what they specifically said that he did.
00:22:28.674 --> 00:22:34.312
So, you know, let's say, for instance, Uncle Sammy touched me on the butt.
00:22:34.416 --> 00:22:38.627
You can say, you said that Uncle Sammy touched you on the butt. Tell me about that.
00:22:39.027 --> 00:22:40.935
So reiterate what it is that they're saying.
00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:48.427
And then moving on, it is not your job as a mandated reporter to really determine
00:22:48.427 --> 00:22:51.417
the veracity of a claim. So again, it's not your job to say,
00:22:51.417 --> 00:22:55.929
oh, well, I think she's lying because she couldn't look me in the eyes while she was talking.
00:22:56.574 --> 00:22:58.317
That's not your job. And, you
00:22:58.317 --> 00:23:02.527
know, she, Jen Ingalls talked about a time where a principal, you know.
00:23:03.475 --> 00:23:08.112
Basically told a girl who had disclosed that she had been sexually assaulted.
00:23:08.112 --> 00:23:10.912
This principal was like, I don't fucking believe her. She's a liar.
00:23:11.249 --> 00:23:14.332
And then the victim was like, well, fuck you guys. I'm not going to work with
00:23:14.332 --> 00:23:19.912
you, right? So like, keep that stuff to yourself and just believe that it happened
00:23:19.912 --> 00:23:23.178
until proven. Otherwise, that's usually a pretty good rule of thumb.
00:23:23.503 --> 00:23:27.262
I would say most logical individuals and empathetic individuals are of that
00:23:27.262 --> 00:23:32.883
sentiment, but apparently it needs to be said because some people are not like that.
00:23:33.431 --> 00:23:37.092
Then there's some trickier cases where like, let's just say this is something
00:23:37.092 --> 00:23:40.762
that occurred at home or at school. Other kids may be witnesses.
00:23:41.404 --> 00:23:44.922
Again, they're children, so you have to be tricky with the questions that you
00:23:44.922 --> 00:23:48.202
ask them. It's okay to ask them the who, what, where, when, and how,
00:23:48.631 --> 00:23:54.009
because that can help corroborate what the kid disclosed or what the reporting party disclosed.
00:23:54.474 --> 00:23:57.412
But other than that, you don't want to go beyond that. So it's kind of just
00:23:57.412 --> 00:24:02.131
the same principle, except they're more of a witness than they are a victim.
00:24:02.926 --> 00:24:07.022
Another thing when it comes to just the way that kids process stuff and the
00:24:07.022 --> 00:24:12.157
way that questions should be phrased, you have script memory and then you have episodic memory.
00:24:12.616 --> 00:24:16.737
And I already kind of knew what episodic memory was, but I didn't know what script memory was.
00:24:16.993 --> 00:24:23.902
So script memory is for repeated events and it's very, very similar to what
00:24:23.902 --> 00:24:28.812
we already talked about with free recall and then recording.
00:24:29.842 --> 00:24:32.630
What was it? Recognition questions. It's very, very similar.
00:24:32.630 --> 00:24:34.007
They kind of build off of each other.
00:24:34.257 --> 00:24:38.710
So script memory, it would be like, oh, can you tell me what you do at the grocery
00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:41.580
store? And it's like, oh, well, I always start on the produce side.
00:24:41.580 --> 00:24:46.450
And once I get all of my groceries on the produce side, I go and then I walk
00:24:46.450 --> 00:24:47.620
through the deli section.
00:24:47.899 --> 00:24:52.102
And that's script. That's preplanned. You have that memorized.
00:24:52.775 --> 00:24:55.770
There's not a lot of specifics there. Now, if you were to say,
00:24:55.770 --> 00:25:00.440
you know, can you tell me what you did at the grocery store on Tuesday and isolate
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:04.240
the event? That's episodic memory because you're narrowing the scope down to
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.701
a specific instance, a specific time frame.
00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:11.420
So it really helps you get more into the nitty gritty than just having like
00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:16.344
a generalized, well, what happened? And then hoping that you get the necessary details.
00:25:16.658 --> 00:25:20.770
Now, what you can do is start with a script based question, such as tell me
00:25:20.770 --> 00:25:24.580
what you do at the grocery store to build a baseline, and then you can switch
00:25:24.580 --> 00:25:27.014
to like an episodic based memory question.
00:25:27.674 --> 00:25:32.050
Like, oh, OK, I see. Now, what did you do specifically on Tuesday at the grocery
00:25:32.050 --> 00:25:34.012
store? And then you can kind of compare.
00:25:34.732 --> 00:25:38.882
The script answer to the episodic answer. So that's fine as well,
00:25:39.411 --> 00:25:41.669
but it is helpful to know the difference.
00:25:42.353 --> 00:25:46.639
On top of that, something to keep in mind is what the kid's primary language
00:25:46.639 --> 00:25:50.369
is. And this is something that I personally never really thought of because,
00:25:50.889 --> 00:25:53.880
I really don't, where I live, there's not a lot of ethnic diversity.
00:25:54.356 --> 00:25:58.969
It's a lot of old white people, a lot of college students, but for the most
00:25:58.969 --> 00:26:02.456
part, everybody speaks English. Every now and then you'll get somebody who doesn't.
00:26:02.764 --> 00:26:06.369
And we'll use like translator apps and things like that. But if you live in
00:26:06.369 --> 00:26:09.719
more of a bilingual community, that can be very, very hard.
00:26:09.719 --> 00:26:15.599
And so while a lot of kids will speak English, it's better if they can answer
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:16.929
in their primary language.
00:26:16.929 --> 00:26:20.409
So if they predominantly speak Spanish, even if they tell you,
00:26:20.409 --> 00:26:23.899
oh, I want to answer in English, see if you can get somebody who's bilingual
00:26:23.899 --> 00:26:27.779
to translate for you because it's just going to be easier and more comfortable for them.
00:26:28.139 --> 00:26:34.751
Because sometimes with trauma, their brain won't encode it properly in English compared to Spanish.
00:26:35.047 --> 00:26:37.769
Again, not something that I had ever really thought of, but something that's
00:26:37.769 --> 00:26:41.729
good to know and to keep in mind in case that ever presents itself.
00:26:42.631 --> 00:26:47.327
Again, we want to have open-ended questions and avoid non-leading questions.
00:26:47.600 --> 00:26:51.594
And then something that she talked about, which is very, very helpful, is the funnel approach.
00:26:52.064 --> 00:26:55.762
Again, kind of goes into using script memory and then episodic memory.
00:26:55.762 --> 00:26:57.627
Start big and then get small.
00:26:58.428 --> 00:27:01.572
That is more useful when it comes to, like, talking to adults.
00:27:01.572 --> 00:27:03.892
Because, again, with the kids, you only want to ask the who,
00:27:03.892 --> 00:27:05.371
what, where, when, how questions.
00:27:05.737 --> 00:27:09.552
But let's just say you're talking to mom and dad. It's okay to start with bigger,
00:27:09.552 --> 00:27:11.089
wider, more open-ended questions.
00:27:11.356 --> 00:27:16.387
Get all of those details and then get narrower into more specific questions that's,
00:27:16.997 --> 00:27:22.986
perfectly fine and then obviously you know avoid suggestive questions and then,
00:27:23.457 --> 00:27:27.632
avoid giving options like oh well did x y and z happen or did x y and z happen
00:27:27.632 --> 00:27:31.812
which is something that i myself really struggle with i didn't realize i did
00:27:31.812 --> 00:27:36.251
that so much in my line of work until it was pointed out to me in this training and i thought well,
00:27:36.936 --> 00:27:40.593
that is certainly something that i do a lot of that i probably need to work on.
00:27:40.924 --> 00:27:46.392
So it was very eye-opening for me because it made me self-aware of a shortcoming
00:27:46.392 --> 00:27:50.447
that I have. And my job and my goal in my line of work is to always better myself
00:27:50.685 --> 00:27:53.227
so that I can help people to the best of my capabilities.
00:27:53.634 --> 00:27:56.772
Because obviously, if somebody's being a child predator, you want to get a conviction
00:27:56.772 --> 00:28:01.072
on that. So if I can help make my questions better for the parents or for the
00:28:01.072 --> 00:28:04.747
kid, that's going to help in the long run, especially if it goes to court.
00:28:05.479 --> 00:28:11.182
Now, some examples of, you know, bad questions and good questions.
00:28:11.182 --> 00:28:14.812
So, for instance, instead of saying, was his hair black, blonde,
00:28:14.812 --> 00:28:17.082
or something else, which would be that option-based question,
00:28:17.082 --> 00:28:18.460
you say, tell me about his hair.
00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:24.262
And that allows the kid to narrate. So, let's say the kid doesn't know a staff
00:28:24.262 --> 00:28:27.703
member's name at the school, and you're trying to establish that who,
00:28:28.225 --> 00:28:32.601
you can get a description for the potential suspect using that question.
00:28:33.106 --> 00:28:36.424
Another thing, instead of was he tall or short, fat or skinny,
00:28:36.768 --> 00:28:42.299
you say, tell me what his body looked like or tell me about his or her skin color.
00:28:43.627 --> 00:28:46.662
If they have like a birthmark or something, if you're trying to determine if
00:28:46.662 --> 00:28:49.862
somebody has tattoos and you're trying to get that description instead of asking,
00:28:49.862 --> 00:28:51.093
oh, do they have tattoos?
00:28:51.441 --> 00:28:54.822
You can say, oh, did you see something on their skin? If the kid says yes,
00:28:54.822 --> 00:28:57.757
then you can say, well, what was it? Or tell me what it was.
00:28:58.962 --> 00:29:05.832
And so that really helps kind of allow them to describe to their knowledge and
00:29:05.832 --> 00:29:07.371
to their recollection what happened.
00:29:07.580 --> 00:29:11.319
And it's not you inadvertently putting words into their mouth.
00:29:11.626 --> 00:29:16.320
So I thought that the training was really really cool. It was only about three hours,
00:29:16.895 --> 00:29:22.322
And I I learned a lot personally and those are like the biggest points on it
00:29:22.322 --> 00:29:25.252
There is a more advanced forensic interview training, which I don't think i'll
00:29:25.252 --> 00:29:27.392
get to go to because I will be on vacation,
00:29:27.996 --> 00:29:32.252
But if you get the opportunity as a mandated reporter to ever attend one of
00:29:32.252 --> 00:29:36.362
those, I highly recommend it Now if you can't that's perfectly fine That's really
00:29:36.362 --> 00:29:39.912
honestly why I made this episode is because that way you can use the information
00:29:39.912 --> 00:29:41.046
that I have disclosed here
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.838
to better help you in your line of work.
00:29:44.087 --> 00:29:47.727
So to wrap it all up, what are the biggest things that we want to take away from here?
00:29:47.890 --> 00:29:51.362
Number one, we do not want to constantly re-traumatize the child.
00:29:51.362 --> 00:29:54.972
So the less people that the child has to speak to in detail about the events
00:29:54.972 --> 00:29:55.918
that happened, the better.
00:29:56.336 --> 00:29:59.542
Number two, you specifically want to ask the kid who, what, where,
00:29:59.542 --> 00:30:02.065
when, and how. And if you can answer all of those questions,
00:30:02.332 --> 00:30:06.062
do not ask follow-up questions. It's not necessary because it goes back to point
00:30:06.062 --> 00:30:08.143
one where you don't want to re-traumatize the child.
00:30:08.486 --> 00:30:11.748
Once you have the information, you can pass it on to law enforcement it in DCS,
00:30:12.021 --> 00:30:15.294
and then they'll get a forensic interview in session.
00:30:15.886 --> 00:30:20.657
Number three, ask open-ended questions. Don't have options. Don't give them
00:30:20.657 --> 00:30:24.908
limited choices, not yes or no. The more that a kid is able to narrate, the better.
00:30:25.303 --> 00:30:29.317
Number four, the funnel approach. Start big, get small. Starting big and broad
00:30:29.317 --> 00:30:32.316
helps you get down to the nitty-gritty when and if it is necessary.
00:30:32.606 --> 00:30:36.652
That is more applicable to adults than it is to children.
00:30:37.145 --> 00:30:40.988
And then last but certainly not least, number five,
00:30:41.366 --> 00:30:46.497
if you cannot get a child to specifically say, this is who did it to me,
00:30:46.497 --> 00:30:50.294
it is okay to ask open-ended questions to get a description for
00:30:50.653 --> 00:30:55.657
the individual, and in some cases, to get a better understanding of the crime
00:30:55.657 --> 00:30:58.797
that was committed, like the example I gave earlier, which is,
00:30:58.797 --> 00:31:01.010
oh, well, Uncle Sam touched me.
00:31:01.364 --> 00:31:05.647
Oh, tell me how he touched you, because a touch, very vague.
00:31:05.647 --> 00:31:06.960
You want to define that a little bit.
00:31:07.343 --> 00:31:10.123
Once little Susie tells you how Uncle Sam touched her, though,
00:31:10.472 --> 00:31:14.117
don't ask the follow-up questions. You don't need to know how it happens specifically,
00:31:14.117 --> 00:31:17.436
such as work your clothes on, work your clothes off, things like that.
00:31:17.669 --> 00:31:20.078
Take that information, report it, and you'll be good to go.
00:31:20.356 --> 00:31:24.537
And this helps forensic interviewers on the back end do a much better job,
00:31:24.537 --> 00:31:28.137
and it doesn't stress the child or fatigue the child the way that it would if
00:31:28.137 --> 00:31:31.392
you had started to get into the nitty gritty with them.
00:31:31.734 --> 00:31:35.817
Also, pro tip, if you are able to, and this is if, again, I don't know what
00:31:35.817 --> 00:31:38.085
your guys' policies are for the places that you work.
00:31:38.607 --> 00:31:43.577
If you are able to record those questions being asked, that is very helpful
00:31:43.577 --> 00:31:45.922
from an evidentiary perspective.
00:31:46.206 --> 00:31:48.789
Again, kind of understand if you're not allowed to do that.
00:31:49.074 --> 00:31:52.457
I don't know if it would be like a violation of rights. I also know that some
00:31:52.457 --> 00:31:54.600
states are not one-party consent calls.
00:31:54.948 --> 00:31:57.737
So if you were to record something on your phone, you would have to disclose
00:31:57.737 --> 00:32:02.936
that that's being recorded, which gets tricky because if a five-year-old can't really give consent.
00:32:03.580 --> 00:32:08.439
Now, I will say they asked for feedback in the class and asked about certain things to talk about.
00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:11.828
And one thing that I really wish they had talked about and I put on the eval
00:32:12.095 --> 00:32:17.940
asking them to talk about it in the future is the complexity of parents being involved with this.
00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:22.900
Because a lot of times the suspect or the perpetrator is somebody that is very
00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:26.921
close to the victim. And a lot of times it is a parent or a relative, right?
00:32:27.357 --> 00:32:31.290
And so if the parent is a perpetrator, you know, where I live and I work,
00:32:31.290 --> 00:32:35.930
that parent has a legal right to be part of any interview that a child is part of.
00:32:35.930 --> 00:32:39.450
And if the child wants to disclose something and does not want that parent in
00:32:39.450 --> 00:32:43.510
the room, but the parent wants to be there, the hands are kind of tied because
00:32:43.510 --> 00:32:45.323
the parent has a legal right to be there.
00:32:45.608 --> 00:32:49.500
So I was hoping that in the future, they might be able to elaborate that on
00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:50.763
that and like what sort of
00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:55.940
techniques, tools or tactics can be used to help navigate a situation like that,
00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:59.710
because I have been in a couple of those where you can tell the kids holding
00:32:59.710 --> 00:33:05.060
back information because a parent is in the room while the kid is being interviewed.
00:33:05.060 --> 00:33:09.220
So I'm hoping that I can help them develop that class a little bit with a section
00:33:09.220 --> 00:33:13.266
like that added, because I think that would be really neat and very, very helpful.
00:33:13.609 --> 00:33:16.268
But yeah, that is all I have on this.
00:33:17.179 --> 00:33:20.350
Please let me know if this is useful to you guys at all. If you know a mandated
00:33:20.350 --> 00:33:23.389
reporter, please feel free to share it with them.
00:33:23.714 --> 00:33:27.621
Again, I was not intending to make an episode, like legitimately at all,
00:33:27.882 --> 00:33:31.560
but this felt like something that was too important not to share,
00:33:31.560 --> 00:33:33.507
especially while it was fresh on my mind.
00:33:33.809 --> 00:33:37.590
You guys know my goal is to help as many people as I can, so hopefully this
00:33:37.590 --> 00:33:41.890
information assists you. Heaven forbid you ever end up in a situation like this.
00:33:42.546 --> 00:33:46.983
And in the meantime, please stay safe out there, take care of each other,
00:33:47.147 --> 00:33:49.747
and as always, stay psyched out.