The Magic Ring

WEBVTT
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Welcome to Possessed, the podcast where we investigate
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the ideas of the past that haunt the present.
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On today's episode, we trace the origins of the
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modern surveillance state to an ancient myth
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of a magic ring. I'm Mary Nickel. And I'm Matt
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Kisner. Let me tell you a story. Once upon a
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time, in ancient Greece, in the kingdom of Lydia,
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there lived a shepherd. And one day the shepherd
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was out tending to his flock and an earthquake
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strikes. And it opens this huge fissure in the
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side of the mountain. So the shepherd goes in
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and he discovers an ancient tomb. And in the
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tomb, there's this horse, this like bronze horse.
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It's like ginormous. And on top of the bronze
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horse is this dead body. It's like humanoid,
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but it's way too big to be a human being, okay?
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And on its hand is a ring. So the shepherd takes
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the ring, and he puts it on, and he discovers
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that when he turns it a certain way, it turns
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him invisible. Okay, so what does he do? He does
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what anybody would do with a magic ring of invisibility.
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He goes straight to the palace where he proceeds
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to seduce the queen, win her over, assassinate
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the king, and then install himself as the new
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king of Lydia. And this is the story that is
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recounted by Plato in the Republic. I love the
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story. I love everything about the story. I love
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the title of the story. So it's called The Ring
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of Gyges. How awesome. I mean, that is like the
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most awesome. That sounds like the name of a
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Doctor Who episode. Or it sounds like a really
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pulpy fantasy novel from like the 1960s. And
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then I love the setup. like what is this what
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is this huge body like who was this dude that
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had this ring? i need a prequel. i need to i need
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to know the backstory it reminds me of like the
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beginning of alien where there's like the space
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jockey and everyone's obsessed with the space
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jockey and where did this thing come from but
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instead of being surrounded by like alien eggs
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it's surrounded by this like magic ring so there's
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so much to love about the story another thing
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The story is like an onion. It has so many layers.
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And so this is why it's like one of the favorite
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stories that people teach in philosophy classes
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and intro to philosophy classes because it raises
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so many kind of provocative philosophical questions.
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And the usual questions it raises I don't even
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want to talk about. I want to talk about a particular
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kind of issue that people often don't associate
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with this story. So it's this fundamental idea.
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The story teaches about human nature. So it's
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about how do people act when no one is watching
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them? How do you act when no one is watching
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you? the first thing i know is apparently you
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dance i was gonna say that you dance what would
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you say you dance better maybe you dance more
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enthusiastically well at least the wall plaque
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that everyone has in their like dining room says
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to dance as though no one knows right but why
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why i guess because you're like more enthusiastic
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or more sincere or like maybe it's a better experience
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for you well according to plato not only do you
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dance better but you murder people that's the
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basic plato idea is that when no one is watching
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us when we are invisible it is like a license
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for bad behavior it brings out vice it brings
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out all of the the worst in human nature and
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so you find a similar kind of idea in the lord
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of the rings so in the hobbit you know bilbo
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finds a ring of invisibility but at that point
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in the story it's just you know it's just a an
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invisibility ring. But then as the story becomes
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more moral and develops in the series, it becomes
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like, no, the ring doesn't just make you invisible.
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It eventually turns you into a soulless ringwraith
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servant of darkness, right? So the invisibility
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makes you evil. And it's obvious that Tolkien
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was really inspired by the Ring of Gyges. In
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this podcast, we like to talk about the ideas
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that haunt us today. And I think this is a seminal
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idea that haunts us today. And the basic idea
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is that we require surveillance in order to be
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good. Like if we make use of some sort of ring
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of invisibility, we hide under some cloak of
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invisibility, that it will... bring out the worst
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in us. And so there's so many examples of this.
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I mean, the level of surveillance in our society
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today is like historically unheard of. Yeah.
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Just how much every aspect of our lives is recorded
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and documented. And a lot of this surveillance
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doesn't have anything to do about helping people
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behave well, right? Like there's a profit motive
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based on collecting and selling data about us.
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So a lot of our surveillance is about turning
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us into products or turning us into better customers.
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It's not about turning us into better people.
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But a lot of the surveillance still is about
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trying to turn us into better people. So how
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does that work? Well, the basic idea comes from
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this. Well, it's illustrated by this idea of
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the panopticon, which is another one of my favorite
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things to talk about in a philosophy class. So
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panopticon is just the Greek word for like all.
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seeing, right? But the idea of the panopticon,
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it's supposed to be this actual physical structure
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that was supposed to be built as part of this
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effort to reform the penal system. So it's a
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way to reform prisons. So the idea is most famously
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associated with Jeremy Bentham, who's this really
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controversial kind of social reformer of the
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Enlightenment. And he wanted to fix prisons.
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He thought prisons were bad, and they were bad.
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They're still bad, but they used to be even worse.
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He wanted to fix prisons so that they were better
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at, like, reforming people. So the idea is that
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you build the prison in a certain structure.
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It's like this big circle. And in the center
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of the circle, there's this tower. And that's
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like this watchtower. And so the guards go in
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the watchtower. And it's set up so that they
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can see, I don't know, like maybe like the cells
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don't have ceilings or something. Like somehow
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the guard can see all of the prisoners all of
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the time. And then the idea was supposed to be,
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oh, like if people were being surveyed all the
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time, then they would behave better. And it was
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supposed to work both ways, actually, that the
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guards could be observed by the prisoners and
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by other people who would come in. And so then
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the guards would be better behaved. So part of
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the idea is you get a better operating prison
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with people being better people if everybody
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can see each other all the time and there's no
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invisibility whatsoever. But the idea wasn't
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just... supposed to be that it helps the prison
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run smoothly the idea was that this was supposed
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to reform prisoners that this was supposed to
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like fix prisoners so that they could be returned
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to society and reformed and and work better well
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how does that supposed to work the idea is that
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if you're being watched all the time and you
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don't actually have to be watched all the time
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You just have to think you're being watched all
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the time. Then you tell yourself that you have
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to be on good behavior because you could be caught.
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So you kind of internalize the perspective of
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the guard. Like you see yourself the way the
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guard sees you. And you internalize the guard.
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So you become, in a way, your own guard. And
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this is this key idea of the Enlightenment of
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people like... governing themselves, policing
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themselves, guarding themselves. This is supposed
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to be a kind of moral ideal. And so the idea
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is that people become better at doing this because
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of this surveillance mechanism. So in a way,
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it feels like Bentham's Panopticon is like negative,
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the reverse image of the Ring of Gyges. Like
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these are two totally opposite. images of the
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same exact kind of dynamic, or at least they
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claim the same sort of thing, that what it is
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to make a person good is to ensure that they're
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being watched. Yes, exactly. And if the person
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is not watched, then they're sure to not be so
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good. Yes. So if a ring of invisibility is like
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a superpower, so if you've got a superhero and
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they can make themselves invisible, the panopticon
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is like the kryptonite. The panopticon is like
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the opposite. It's like shuts down the power
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of invisibility. So if the power of invisibility
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can be used for evil, then the panopticon is
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the thing that stops it. And by analogy, then
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the surveillance is the thing that stops it.
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That's supposed to be the antidote for our society,
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right? Wait, so are you into the panopticon?
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I mean, no, I actually, I don't know. The panopticon
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gets a very bad rap. That's right, yes. People
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do not like the Panopticon because people don't
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like surveillance. But I think that there's actually
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a lot to be said in defense of... Okay, but so
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I want to sit with the Panopticon and with this
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idea because you're right, the Panopticon gets
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a bad rap, particularly in academic circles,
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right? The worry is that, you know, when we become
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our own guards... We become someone that we're
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not, right? We're not doing the thing that we
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actually have desire to do. And maybe that's
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a good thing and maybe that's a bad thing. Jury's
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out. But I think there is some worry that there's...
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Somehow some external imposition of a norm or
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an idea or a way of behaving that comes from
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the outside in. Foreign. Yeah. It's taking you
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over. It's threatening your autonomy. So Bentham
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thought it was realizing your autonomy because
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you're self -policing. But was Bentham wrong?
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Bentham was wrong about many things. This may
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be an example. But this brings the question that
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I want to ask into focus, which is, this is an
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idea. that is alive and well today, is it an
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idea that we should exercise, right? So like
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an exorcism, right? If this is an idea that possesses
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us, do we want to exercise this idea? And I think
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one, probably the best way to ask that question
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is to think about examples in our world of rings
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of invisibility. And then ask ourselves, you
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know, go through this thought process. Is this
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ring of invisibility bringing out terrible things
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in our behavior or that requires surveillance
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to fix or not? So I have a few examples I've
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kind of prepared of kinds of rings of invisibility
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that we have today. I think the first one that
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pops into people's head is probably the internet,
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right? So I think about like anonymous. comment
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sections on anything, on videos or whatever,
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it has this tendency to like... Mickey fan 4200.
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Yes, right? Suddenly they talk to people in this
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way that they never would if they could see them
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face to face in real life. So that anonymity,
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that invisibility brings out the absolute worst
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in people. And I think it's interesting. we have
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a word for it troll yeah right which is very
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much similar to the ring yeah yeah the wearing
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the ring of invisibility turns you into like
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a mythical monster yeah exactly the language
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we use it turns you into a troll um but i don't
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know like there's some ways that the internet
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works with that story but there's also some ways
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the internet really doesn't work with that story
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because invisibility means that you're kind of
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like, you can't be seen and you can't be traced.
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And that's actually something that's vanishingly
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rare on the internet. Yeah. Like you don't, there
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are certain situations where it's set up that
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you have a certain kind of anonymity, but...
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The reverse is kind of the true. On the internet,
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everything you do can eventually be traced, and
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everything you do is forever, and you can't even
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get rid of it. So there's some ways that the
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internet is an example. Certain instances on
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the internet are. But isn't it another case where
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this kind of inverse example proves the same
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rule? And folks who are teenagers today have
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that in mind. They're like, oh, this is going
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to live with me forever. So I need to make sure
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that I'm on my best behavior because I don't
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know what might, you know, come up. It illustrates
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the opposite point about the potential harms
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of the surveillance, right? Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah, I mean, I just I don't know if maybe it's
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maybe the idea that we're all terrible. And that
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with some kind of invisibility or a lack of being
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surveilled by other people, we would be terrible,
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right? Like if that's what millennials or not
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millennials, Jen, where are we at? Jen? Oh, I
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don't even know. Alpha. Alpha. They're running
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out of letters and they've gone back to the beginning.
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The beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're
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in Gen Alpha, then you're thinking, oh, my goodness,
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I need to be careful with what's on the Internet.
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Like, once again, we're seeing the same lesson
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that Plato tried to teach or whoever wrote this
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story, whenever, whether or not it came before
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Plato is debated. The same idea that we need
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to be surveilled in order to be good people.
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Yeah. Okay, so I have other examples. Okay. So
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this one's a really lame one, but it's kind of
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true. So like tinted windows in cars. Totally.
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So people tell me. Hate them. I hate them. But
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I've never had a car with tinted windows. But
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people who have them tell me that they drive
00:14:33.190 --> 00:14:35.389
differently because their windows are tinted.
00:14:35.529 --> 00:14:38.590
And they like it. But as a person who's more
00:14:38.590 --> 00:14:40.690
likely to be the pedestrian, I don't like it.
00:14:41.129 --> 00:14:44.029
But they drive, I think, with more license. Yeah.
00:14:44.409 --> 00:14:47.230
Because they don't have accountability because
00:14:47.230 --> 00:14:49.870
people can't see them and they want that lack
00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:52.049
of accountability. So that one seems like that's
00:14:52.049 --> 00:14:55.529
kind of confirming the Plato view of things.
00:14:56.850 --> 00:15:01.710
Here's another example. So this is like a cloak
00:15:01.710 --> 00:15:04.169
of invisibility rather than a ring of invisibility.
00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:07.830
There are certain aspects of our lives that we
00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:10.659
like. throwing up a cloak like we don't want
00:15:10.659 --> 00:15:12.879
to know what's in it yeah and then those become
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.259
places where like a lot of bad stuff can happen
00:15:15.259 --> 00:15:21.360
oh no so like how your food is created it's something
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.899
that people want yeah so like they like like
00:15:23.899 --> 00:15:26.139
sometimes you'll go to a fancy restaurant and
00:15:26.139 --> 00:15:28.000
they'll have like a kitchen where you can watch
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.639
them cook yes and people are cool with that and
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:32.259
they're like fine sitting at the table and watching
00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:35.299
them cook but nobody wants like to sit where
00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:38.509
you can watch your food be butchered right And
00:15:38.509 --> 00:15:40.389
nobody wants to sit and watch the meat be processed.
00:15:40.470 --> 00:15:42.809
And nobody wants to sit and watch the food lot,
00:15:42.990 --> 00:15:45.830
the feed lot where the animal is being kept and
00:15:45.830 --> 00:15:47.850
whatever. That's right. This is something that's
00:15:47.850 --> 00:15:52.309
invisible to us. And that very fact of its invisibility.
00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.679
Like, I don't know, if people could really see
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:57.879
it and interact with it on a daily basis, how
00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:01.200
much would it change their behaviors? Well, I
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.519
mean, this is really interesting. We do a unit
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.000
in a course that I teach often on the ethics
00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.940
of eating meat. And we've talked about actually,
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:15.679
I mean, chicken, like poultry processing plants
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.940
and the folks who own the farms, all these folks
00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:21.940
have. a lot of investment in making sure that
00:16:21.940 --> 00:16:24.919
you can't see what it looks like, right? So part
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.080
of what like Mercy USA does, like these different
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.759
animal advocacy groups do, is just like try to
00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:32.600
get like one little angle so that they can show
00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.200
other people. Because the idea is like, well,
00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.960
if other people knew. And yet, like I think just
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.759
maybe this is confirming not only. Plato's account,
00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.620
but also how terrible we all are. Like, those
00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:47.860
things don't go viral because we don't want to
00:16:47.860 --> 00:16:49.480
see them. We don't want to see them. Those of
00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.039
us who do continue to eat meat, like, I think
00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.240
it really kind of bursts people's bubbles to
00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.399
actually see, oh, my goodness, this is what the
00:16:57.399 --> 00:16:59.700
cost is of, you know, my delicious sandwich.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.580
Yeah. And it's not just food, too. So, like,
00:17:02.659 --> 00:17:04.400
I feel like as soon as I talk about animals,
00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:05.720
there's always a segment where we're like, ah,
00:17:05.779 --> 00:17:08.299
those animals. Like, it's any product. Of course.
00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.400
Like, fast fashion. Yes. And, like, who sewed
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.069
the clothes? What kind of working conditions
00:17:14.069 --> 00:17:17.529
were people subjected to? And then trash. Do
00:17:17.529 --> 00:17:19.730
you ever think about where your trash goes? I'll
00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:21.069
tell you, there are parts of the world that are
00:17:21.069 --> 00:17:23.230
literally living in our trash, and it's awful.
00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:26.829
But because it's so invisible to us, we're able
00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:29.329
to continue with these habits that are doing
00:17:29.329 --> 00:17:33.049
these bad things. Another example that I think
00:17:33.049 --> 00:17:38.789
is interesting is our democracy. So I think this
00:17:38.789 --> 00:17:41.279
is really... Plato's idea here is fundamental
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.019
in terms of how we structure our democracies.
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:49.539
So when we have a public body making public decisions,
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:54.400
we want that open to the public. And there's
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.720
a lot of reasons for that. They're supposed to
00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:57.400
be representing us. We're entitled to know what
00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:59.740
they're doing. But there's also this fear that
00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:02.480
if they go... like this phrase, behind closed
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.579
doors. Like if they go behind closed doors and
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:08.980
they're not being watched, then the bad behavior
00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:11.359
is going to come out. Yeah, but isn't it so fascinating,
00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:13.839
though, that we still have a secret ballot box,
00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:17.200
right? Like we go into voting booths and we don't
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.799
let people see who we're voting for. And I think
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.119
a lot of us think that... That's a really integral
00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.839
part of our democratic community that you don't
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.680
know who someone else may have voted for. And
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.769
you can't find out for, you know. whatever number
00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:35.829
of years. Yeah, so there's the double standard.
00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:38.410
The standard for the voters is that they need
00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:40.569
their privacy. They need their ring of invisibility
00:18:40.569 --> 00:18:43.430
when they vote. But when it's the elected officials,
00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.269
they need to be subjected to scrutiny. They can't
00:18:46.269 --> 00:18:49.069
be invisible. Well, so here's, I think, I don't
00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:51.109
know if it's like as much a double standard as
00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:55.109
just a revelation of maybe what's wrong with
00:18:55.109 --> 00:18:58.789
this idea that possesses us. That there is something,
00:18:58.910 --> 00:19:02.339
there is a possibility. When we are subjected
00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:08.059
to scrutiny in this way of faking it, of not
00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:12.839
being honest, of saying yes, like. I've got the
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:15.740
guard has planted in my soul, but really the
00:19:15.740 --> 00:19:17.299
guard hasn't been planted in my soul, right?
00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.740
Of just putting on airs and convincing other
00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:24.359
people about what's going on internally. Yes,
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.059
and that's always the fear about politicians,
00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:29.859
right? The fear is that they're insincere. It's
00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:31.700
all an act. They're just telling you whatever
00:19:31.700 --> 00:19:34.519
you want to hear. And I think that's just the
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.119
appeal of it. Politics is being changed in the
00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:40.819
world around us, but a lot of the reason for
00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:43.839
it, I think, is this this hunger for sincerity
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.980
and authenticity from our political leaders,
00:19:46.099 --> 00:19:47.720
the sense that like they really believe what
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.759
they're saying. It matters more than whether
00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:54.220
what they're saying is true. Totally. But isn't
00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:56.720
it so interesting that just like the dance like
00:19:56.720 --> 00:19:59.640
no one's watching plaque reminds us that sometimes
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:03.319
authenticity is the most possible within the
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.539
confines of, you know, behind closed doors, within
00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:08.920
the confines of one's own space where you can
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.740
dance like. No one's watching or or do whatever
00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:14.200
like no one's watching. Right. And you can vote
00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:16.940
like no one's watching. And presumably there's
00:20:16.940 --> 00:20:18.279
something really valuable about that. I mean,
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:22.119
OK, so I think I'm not so sure that I think this
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.819
idea needs an exorcism. But let me say that the
00:20:25.819 --> 00:20:28.680
places where I do wonder if if maybe it does
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.230
need an exorcism is like I do think. You know,
00:20:32.269 --> 00:20:34.670
Americans aren't doing this to the same degree
00:20:34.670 --> 00:20:36.869
as our European counterparts. But I do think
00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:38.609
we are starting to appreciate the importance
00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:43.650
of privacy. I think I've thought about this in
00:20:43.650 --> 00:20:46.369
the past. It would be very easy to cut the number
00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:51.609
of deaths in road accidents by just having, I
00:20:51.609 --> 00:20:55.559
mean, many of us, maybe. The vast majority of
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.039
us use something like Google Maps or Waze or
00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.240
whatever to get where we're going. Like, why
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.099
couldn't a state or federal government, like,
00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:06.039
sign some agreement with Waze and then just report
00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.099
us the moment that we speed? And then we would
00:21:09.099 --> 00:21:11.559
totally, you know, you would improve behavior
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.660
so quickly. And it would save tons of lives,
00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:17.079
yeah. It would save so many lives. And... No
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.960
one would ever be up for that kind of program
00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:24.019
because it would violate our privacy. And I my
00:21:24.019 --> 00:21:26.039
my hunch is that there's a lot of different reasons
00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.059
that we care about that. One of them is like
00:21:28.059 --> 00:21:31.900
if my, you know, kid needs to go to the ER, like
00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:34.799
I'm going to run the red light or speed and I
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.380
better not get a ticket. Like there's considerations
00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:39.720
that are pertinent to like a specific case like
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:44.440
that. But also, I don't know. It's weird. The
00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.119
panopticon is weird. Like, that kind of deep
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.480
surveillance feels like a violation of some sort,
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.920
doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:55.539
It violates privacy. It's potentially harmful.
00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.980
Excessive surveillance is clearly a bad thing.
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.400
But on the other hand, lack of surveillance can
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.279
create problems, too. Here's another ring of
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.740
invisibility that I see. It's kind of like an
00:22:08.740 --> 00:22:11.079
unintentional ring. And it goes back to this
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:16.299
idea of democracy. If democracy requires a kind
00:22:16.299 --> 00:22:20.019
of – that there isn't invisibility, right, that
00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:21.880
our public officials can always be visible, that
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:24.980
we know how they vote and why they vote and all
00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:28.500
of that, then it looks like journalism plays
00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:32.119
an essential role. Journalists are the flashlight
00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:37.559
that keeps everything visible. So there's this
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.319
weird kind of invisibility. that comes when journalism
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:47.420
is not operating in the right way. So this has
00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:49.539
always been with us, and it goes in cycles, but
00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:52.779
we're now in a cycle where journalism is very
00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:55.700
much beholden to the profit motive. So journalism
00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:59.019
is about trying to get clicks and trying to get
00:22:59.019 --> 00:23:02.480
views, which means creating content that is inflammatory,
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.720
that creates outrage, that gets people engaged
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.900
and writing in comment section. Not necessarily
00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:13.319
the stuff that we want to see, like chicken farms
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.380
and... Yes, not necessarily the stuff that we
00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:19.339
need to see. to make sure our democracy is functioning
00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:21.640
in the way that it should, oftentimes creating
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.519
stuff that's false or that's a distraction. And
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.660
disinformation and distracting information creates
00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:32.200
a kind of invisibility for the very institutions
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.299
that we want to have a spotlight shined on them
00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:37.539
if journalism isn't operating in the right ways.
00:23:37.779 --> 00:23:41.640
Okay, totally. But journalists also are allowed
00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.319
and even encouraged to use anonymous sources
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.519
when it's necessary, right? So there's got to
00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.769
be a kind of... of like valuable invisibility
00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:52.109
there. I mean, like there's like all of these
00:23:52.109 --> 00:23:54.190
like ethical commitments that journalists make
00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:57.109
that like, you know, you're not going to use
00:23:57.109 --> 00:24:00.049
anonymous sources like willy -nilly and there's
00:24:00.049 --> 00:24:02.009
all sorts of things that editors require. But
00:24:02.009 --> 00:24:05.890
yeah, I mean, like isn't invisibility still like
00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:09.480
even prized in that case? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean,
00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:11.500
I think there's an important conclusion to reach
00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:14.519
from this, which is that you can't make blanket
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.500
claims about whether invisibility is good or
00:24:17.500 --> 00:24:21.640
bad. It's very context specific. So like you
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.779
were saying, like for the voter, you want the
00:24:23.779 --> 00:24:25.640
invisibility, but not always for the elected
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.039
officials. And then there's lots of examples
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:30.880
of this where in some cases invisibility is good,
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:34.019
in some cases it's harmful. So I guess if we're
00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:37.079
asking, you know, we're interrogating this idea,
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.240
what are the general principles? Like, what are
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.799
the conditions under which the invisibility is
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.859
harmful? What are the conditions under which
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:50.859
invisibility is beneficial? And maybe in the
00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.920
inverse, what are the conditions in which surveillance
00:24:53.920 --> 00:25:05.579
is harmful and or beneficial? Yeah. Yeah. Okay,
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:11.119
where are you coming down on this, Matt? I mean,
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:12.880
this is too big of a question for me to have
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:15.940
like one good answer. I do have one wrinkle I
00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:22.619
want to make, like one very like massaged, qualified
00:25:22.619 --> 00:25:27.119
claim that I feel good about. So when I think
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.960
about the harms of surveillance, so, you know,
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.559
there's violating privacy, destroying our freedom,
00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:38.119
all of that kind of stuff. One of them sticks
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:44.720
out for me. which is harming your autonomy. Because
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.319
this is precisely what Bentham's Panopticon was
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.339
supposed to get. It was supposed to get people
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:53.779
who were more self -governing and independent.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.019
But there's a way that surveillance can often
00:25:58.019 --> 00:26:01.039
have the opposite effect, that it can undermine
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:04.549
people's autonomy and make them... slaves to
00:26:04.549 --> 00:26:08.109
a system. So an example of this that I see a
00:26:08.109 --> 00:26:12.049
lot is in my teaching. So I don't want my students
00:26:12.049 --> 00:26:14.569
to cheat. I don't think that's a good thing.
00:26:14.950 --> 00:26:16.930
There's kind of two routes that you can take.
00:26:17.569 --> 00:26:20.569
One route is you can say, oh, we're going to
00:26:20.569 --> 00:26:23.930
use the honor system in this class. Everybody,
00:26:24.009 --> 00:26:26.549
you are responsible for being your own policeman.
00:26:27.529 --> 00:26:30.250
We're all going to live up to this ideal and
00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:32.130
take ownership for making sure that we don't.
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.900
break the rules. Or you can take the view that
00:26:35.900 --> 00:26:40.259
says, look, nobody's going to do that. I've got
00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:44.759
to create systems for monitoring them and penalizing
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.319
them as the only way to make sure that they actually
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.880
follow the rules. Now, I think the latter one
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.200
that involves surveillance is probably more effective
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.660
at keeping my students from cheating. But I also
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:01.490
see that there's a cost. Yeah. Because the students
00:27:01.490 --> 00:27:05.150
no longer see it as their own responsibility
00:27:05.150 --> 00:27:07.710
for making sure that they don't follow the rules.
00:27:07.869 --> 00:27:11.029
They think it's a game. And now the game is to
00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:12.349
beat. Now they want to game it. They want to
00:27:12.349 --> 00:27:14.970
game it. They want to beat the system. And so
00:27:14.970 --> 00:27:18.529
now they're like rather than them being autonomous
00:27:18.529 --> 00:27:20.930
agents, they're like instead doing something
00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:25.109
else. They're like they're combatants with you
00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:27.029
in trying to make sure that the rules are followed.
00:27:27.450 --> 00:27:31.400
So even though it might be. better at catching
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.259
cheaters and making people follow the rules,
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.559
it's, I think, undermining students' autonomy.
00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:41.960
And so I don't think all surveillance across
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.400
the board is good. I want to find instances where
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.660
surveillance can operate to curb people's natural
00:27:49.660 --> 00:27:53.460
tendencies towards bad behavior in certain situations,
00:27:53.500 --> 00:27:57.680
and also cases where surveillance doesn't stunt
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.259
their autonomy. but promotes their autonomy,
00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:03.799
that helps them to become more self -governing.
00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:07.819
So I think we just need to be more critical about
00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:10.579
the instances where surveillance is helpful and
00:28:10.579 --> 00:28:13.599
instances where it's not. Yeah, that sounds right
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.980
to me. I mean, my sense is that, I don't know,
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.960
but my sense about the original story, the story
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.809
about Gaijis, is not necessarily that anytime
00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:30.190
anyone ever has the ability to be invisible,
00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:33.150
that they will be corrupted, but that there's
00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:36.049
always a possibility. And so under conditions
00:28:36.049 --> 00:28:39.789
of a lack of surveillance or a lack of any kind
00:28:39.789 --> 00:28:42.529
of mutual accountability. some people are going
00:28:42.529 --> 00:28:45.630
to take advantage of it, right? I'm thinking
00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:47.650
of like Madison's, you know, if all men were
00:28:47.650 --> 00:28:49.970
angels, like this is why we need accountability
00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:52.609
is because we're not all angels and there's a
00:28:52.609 --> 00:28:56.369
little bit of non -angel in all of us. And so
00:28:56.369 --> 00:29:00.589
we need some kind of just a way of making sure
00:29:00.589 --> 00:29:04.569
that none of us is totally unaccountable to the
00:29:04.569 --> 00:29:08.750
people around us. But I do think... The concern
00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:10.869
that I have about surveillance is not necessarily
00:29:10.869 --> 00:29:14.410
just like a particular form or a particular context,
00:29:14.650 --> 00:29:20.589
but who has access to it? Who has the prerogative
00:29:20.589 --> 00:29:22.829
to say when we're going to surveil and when we're
00:29:22.829 --> 00:29:28.430
not? Against whom we might use it? My sense is,
00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:32.509
and this is why I think there's a need for...
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.859
publicity not just visibility among you know
00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:39.200
democratic politicians and maybe a need for invisibility
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.359
in the voting booth um is that we we need to
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:46.460
make sure that um uh that the kind of the right
00:29:46.460 --> 00:29:50.460
levels and places and peep and and um kind of
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:52.859
power holders or shareholders in surveillance
00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:55.940
are applied um yeah so like in the classroom
00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:58.579
example i think if you're developing communal
00:29:58.579 --> 00:30:02.859
norms I like to ask my students, let me give
00:30:02.859 --> 00:30:08.430
you a situation. A student... Their sibling died.
00:30:08.670 --> 00:30:11.009
What kind of account like like accommodations
00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:13.829
ought we to offer? Here's the university policy.
00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:15.910
Are there any additional things like what would
00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:19.730
you do in this kind of situation? And now here's
00:30:19.730 --> 00:30:21.950
a different situation. And that's a little bit
00:30:21.950 --> 00:30:25.910
less understandable or something like that. What
00:30:25.910 --> 00:30:28.549
would you do in this situation so that we can
00:30:28.549 --> 00:30:30.609
be developing those? So that there's not just
00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:32.750
those are the guards up in the watchtower and
00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:35.230
here's us in the cells. But actually, there's
00:30:35.230 --> 00:30:38.210
a relationship. where we're all actually caring
00:30:38.210 --> 00:30:41.569
for and considering one another in a more meaningful
00:30:41.569 --> 00:30:44.170
kind of mutual way. That's my sense. Yeah, yeah,
00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:46.509
yeah. No, that's good. So I like this idea that
00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:51.470
you have that, like, it's reminding us that surveillance
00:30:51.470 --> 00:30:54.289
is a power, too. Like, one way to read the original
00:30:54.289 --> 00:30:58.710
story is that the ring of invisibility. destroys
00:30:58.710 --> 00:31:01.269
the inherent equality among people right right
00:31:01.269 --> 00:31:03.950
like we're all subject to certain rules but by
00:31:03.950 --> 00:31:05.829
putting on the ring of invisibility now you have
00:31:05.829 --> 00:31:09.009
a superpower now you're no longer beholden to
00:31:09.009 --> 00:31:11.329
the same rules and that's that unequal power
00:31:11.329 --> 00:31:14.190
dynamic that becomes an opportunity for mischief
00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:17.029
but if the ring of invisibility is a superpower
00:31:17.769 --> 00:31:20.089
Surveillance is a superpower too. That's right.
00:31:20.210 --> 00:31:23.650
And having the ability to shine a flashlight
00:31:23.650 --> 00:31:27.430
into previously private places, that also creates
00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:30.789
an unequal playing field, which also creates
00:31:30.789 --> 00:31:33.269
opportunities for mischief. So I think your idea
00:31:33.269 --> 00:31:38.329
of using surveillance in a way that doesn't create
00:31:38.329 --> 00:31:42.670
this inequality that's rife for abuse, but instead
00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:46.490
a way of helping each other to just behave better.
00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:53.380
A way where it's more mutual preserves kind of
00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:57.619
the equality of people. That's a good ideal.
00:31:57.980 --> 00:32:00.920
I like that. I mean, that sounds like a better
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.900
version of the panopticon than the ones that,
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.579
you know, I've heard so often. I actually think
00:32:06.579 --> 00:32:09.660
that's what we're so used to. So Michel Foucault,
00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:14.779
the famous French iconoclastic philosopher, like
00:32:14.779 --> 00:32:17.859
really went after. The idea of the panopticon.
00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:19.799
And so, so many people know about it, not through
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:21.880
Bentham, but through Foucault's criticism of
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:27.579
it. It makes it look so nasty and sinister. But
00:32:27.579 --> 00:32:30.500
that's not at all how Bentham saw it. Bentham
00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:33.640
wanted it to be that the guards were watched
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.079
just as much as the prisoners. He wasn't trying
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:40.359
to create this position of inequality. He was
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.579
trying to create equality. Everyone is now being
00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:47.740
watched. Rather than one group having power,
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:49.880
this is the Foucauldian reading, one group has
00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.660
power over another and uses surveillance as a
00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:57.220
form of domination. That wasn't in the Bentham
00:32:57.220 --> 00:33:01.039
script. Yeah, I wonder, updating things to today.
00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:05.519
Sometimes I find it so helpful, the degree to
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.440
which I use something like Google Maps. I can
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.000
try to remember where I went to lunch five years
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:11.960
ago and I can look it up in my Google history.
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.559
But then I also think... Who else might be able
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:17.500
to find out where I went to lunch five years
00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:20.660
ago? And so I wonder if there's a way in which,
00:33:20.700 --> 00:33:24.019
you know, there's some similarities here between
00:33:24.019 --> 00:33:27.539
me not wanting to see the chicken farms and also
00:33:27.539 --> 00:33:30.519
not wanting to think about the degree to which
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.160
there might be a power differential here that
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.299
I'm just signing myself up for because I want
00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:37.220
to get better directions. You know, I've often
00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:40.519
wondered this, like, why are we so complicit
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.150
and tolerant? of how much we're surveyed and
00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:45.650
how much our data is all tracked and sold. And
00:33:45.650 --> 00:33:48.470
I mean, I've asked myself that because I am kind
00:33:48.470 --> 00:33:52.069
of indifferent. Like I find myself kind of ambivalent
00:33:52.069 --> 00:33:54.769
about it. And I think it's because there's a
00:33:54.769 --> 00:33:58.170
different cloak of invisibility here that people
00:33:58.170 --> 00:34:01.130
are missing. And it's the anonymity of being
00:34:01.130 --> 00:34:05.470
one point in this huge system of data. So like,
00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:09.329
yes, somebody could find out where I ate lunch
00:34:09.329 --> 00:34:12.010
five years ago through my Google history. But
00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:15.010
who's going to do that? And who cares, right?
00:34:15.150 --> 00:34:18.449
It's like it's being recorded for everyone in
00:34:18.449 --> 00:34:21.769
such large, massive volumes that there's this
00:34:21.769 --> 00:34:24.230
way it becomes invisible because it gets lost
00:34:24.230 --> 00:34:27.590
in the crowd. It's like the anonymity of a crowd.
00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:30.070
Now maybe this is a false sense of invisibility.
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:32.760
Maybe people shouldn't feel that way, but I do
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.159
think that that's why they feel that way. They
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:36.579
feel like, yeah, but somebody would have to go
00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:38.480
looking for where I ate lunch five years ago,
00:34:38.500 --> 00:34:39.960
and who's going to do that? Who has the time
00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:42.400
and energy to do that, even if they have the
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.099
access? So here's my sense. And again, this is
00:34:46.099 --> 00:34:49.920
just on the anxieties that I have about the power
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.000
inequalities, about surveillance, or about rings
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.230
of invisibility. That data is... packageable
00:34:58.230 --> 00:35:02.250
and sellable such that um you know you can learn
00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:04.369
different things about different demographics
00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:08.010
and categories of people this um i'm pretty sure
00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:09.909
is not apocryphal but i wouldn't be surprised
00:35:09.909 --> 00:35:12.409
if it were but there's a a famous story that
00:35:12.409 --> 00:35:14.409
came out when some of this data stuff started
00:35:14.409 --> 00:35:20.750
um emerging in like the 2010s that um uh you
00:35:20.750 --> 00:35:24.489
know targets version of like you know, well,
00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:26.210
I've noticed that you've been buying this. Maybe
00:35:26.210 --> 00:35:30.869
you want this other thing. Found, like, suggested
00:35:30.869 --> 00:35:35.510
baby products for a young woman who was not,
00:35:35.610 --> 00:35:38.250
who did not yet know at the time, but then later
00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:40.269
found out that she was pregnant. And so, like,
00:35:40.289 --> 00:35:42.789
there's ways in which maybe it's not injurious
00:35:42.789 --> 00:35:44.909
to her in singling her out in this particular
00:35:44.909 --> 00:35:47.170
way, but there's just ways that this kind of,
00:35:47.190 --> 00:35:54.349
that kind of stuff can... lead to maybe exactly
00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:57.170
what gaijis ended up being able to do right like
00:35:57.170 --> 00:36:00.630
uh sneak into the palace and take over all of
00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:04.110
the stuff um so there's a kind of um invisibility
00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:06.789
behind the way that the surveillance itself can
00:36:06.789 --> 00:36:09.050
be packaged and sold and that's really scary
00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:12.630
yeah Yeah, I remember it was, I think, a New
00:36:12.630 --> 00:36:14.570
York Times story that covered this where the
00:36:14.570 --> 00:36:18.869
father of a teenage girl had gotten, saw that
00:36:18.869 --> 00:36:20.730
she was being recommended baby products and he
00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:23.170
went outraged at suggesting that his daughter
00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:25.489
was pregnant. Yes. But the daughter was pregnant.
00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:27.969
Yes. But he didn't know, right? Because the Google
00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:30.989
algorithm or whatever, the target algorithm was
00:36:30.989 --> 00:36:34.050
better at knowing this fact about his own, this
00:36:34.050 --> 00:36:36.329
intimate fact about his own family than he was.
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:41.199
Yeah. And the target solution was not, there
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.320
was like, well, it doesn't work if people feel
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.639
like they're being surveyed. Yeah. So we're going
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.280
to repackage it. So we still target people we
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.880
think are pregnant, but we bury it in a bunch
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:53.820
of other ads so that they don't realize that
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:56.179
we know that. Which is to say we make it invisible.
00:36:56.440 --> 00:37:00.239
Yes. You make the surveillance invisible. Yeah.
00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:04.340
Yeah. Yeah. So maybe this is why we do need some
00:37:04.340 --> 00:37:10.000
privacy is like some kind of, um you know spot
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:13.639
where we can squirrel away and know that um someone
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.119
else isn't going to take some advantage over
00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.679
whatever power inequalities might be existent
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:26.340
in our incredibly complex society um yeah i mean
00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:31.619
i find myself agreeing with plato yeah okay so
00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:36.670
um this is it final thoughts Is this this idea?
00:37:36.730 --> 00:37:39.309
We need surveillance to be good. Is this an idea
00:37:39.309 --> 00:37:41.489
we need to exercise, that we need to get rid
00:37:41.489 --> 00:37:44.030
of? Or is it an idea that we should stick with?
00:37:44.250 --> 00:37:51.250
Last reflections. I think that we need whatever
00:37:51.250 --> 00:37:54.050
kind of means for accountability are appropriate
00:37:54.050 --> 00:37:58.190
to the context in which people are making decisions.
00:37:58.630 --> 00:38:01.840
My sense is... I don't have the same optimism
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:06.719
that you do about the honor system. And yet I
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.199
am anxious about the ways that I think we might
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:13.280
have inflated this idea that we need surveillance
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:18.119
so far that we have bureaucratized every possible
00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:22.679
little thing. There is a way in which we kind
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.119
of set the standard for what we expect people
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:30.199
to do. So, yeah, I appreciate your kind of your
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:33.099
recommendation for being context sensitive, just
00:38:33.099 --> 00:38:37.059
addressing the specific case. I like the resistance
00:38:37.059 --> 00:38:40.340
to blanket statements. And also, I'm glad that
00:38:40.340 --> 00:38:44.420
there are people who are sounding the alarm about
00:38:44.420 --> 00:38:47.380
the dangers of of hyper surveillance because
00:38:47.380 --> 00:38:52.530
it, too, could make us not so great. Yeah. I
00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:55.110
think this is not an idea that we need to exercise,
00:38:55.309 --> 00:38:58.489
but it is an idea that we need to shine light
00:38:58.489 --> 00:39:04.110
on. Ooh! We need to bring it out of Plato's texts
00:39:04.110 --> 00:39:06.449
and out of history and look at it clearly for
00:39:06.449 --> 00:39:09.929
what it is because it's so context -dependent.
00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:12.869
Because there are cases where it seems really
00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:15.750
true and it's essential that, you know, things...
00:39:17.369 --> 00:39:19.369
Invisibility be controlled and reined in and
00:39:19.369 --> 00:39:22.710
light be shined in the right places. But on the
00:39:22.710 --> 00:39:24.769
other hand, there are times when that very light
00:39:24.769 --> 00:39:26.590
is so harmful. So I think we just need to be
00:39:26.590 --> 00:39:31.769
more critical and reflective about Plato's ideas,
00:39:31.889 --> 00:39:33.690
which means thinking about them and talking about
00:39:33.690 --> 00:39:35.590
them all the time, which I try to do with my
00:39:35.590 --> 00:39:38.789
students. Could you imagine two philosophy professors
00:39:38.789 --> 00:39:42.349
saying such a thing? I know, right? It probably
00:39:42.349 --> 00:39:44.690
also means continuing to think about all sorts
00:39:44.690 --> 00:39:48.130
of similar ideas and listening to this podcast.
00:39:48.550 --> 00:40:00.989
Yes. On that note, thanks for joining us. Possessed
00:40:00.989 --> 00:40:02.829
is made possible by a generous grant from the
00:40:02.829 --> 00:40:04.969
University of South Carolina Humanities Collaborative.