Letting Partners In: Overcoming Hyperindependence & Codependence in Polyamory

Welcome to the Poly Pathways podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory. Your hosts are Kat and Doc. We're glad you're here. Hello everybody and welcome back to the next episode of Polypathways podcast. Kat and I are thrilled that you're here. Today we're going to be talking about something that might at home with you in a pretty awkward way, and that is letting your partner show up for you, letting them into your life, and why is it so hard to receive that support, especially when we want support but we're afraid to ask for it, or maybe especially when we need support and we've created this environment of, like, for independence. I think in polyamory, this is especially harder because a lot of us have gone through some trauma. We are just commenting off the air that maybe not everybody who's gone through trauma, but everybody on this podcast has had some past relationship trauma. And that can lead us to this place of being independent and feeling that independence as safety, especially when we talk about polyamory, about being able to represent your own feelings, your own desires, your own wants, but that can be very difficult at times. And so what is the line between being an independent person who is strong and who can take care of themselves and someone who is being hyper-independent and walling off potential connections that can help them grow, can help alleviate some temporary problems that they have. In today's episode, we're really going to get into talking about how independence is a sword that cuts both ways, talking a little bit about how we can offer the love that we want to our partners, but also receive the love that we want from our partners. and then finally getting into a little bit of that, a practice being in a supportive relationship where we're letting our partners into our life so that we can grow and be a better partner for ourselves and for them and just live a happy, loving life. I think the first thing we want to talk about is how independence can kind of cut both ways. Independence, like we all like to pretend that we're very hyper-independent people, especially anybody that has had a little bit of that trauma in their past, right? if you've come up in an environment where you were very big on bootstrap culture, like you have to do it your own way, you have to figure it out, you have to kind of support yourself, you know, maybe from your childhood upbringing or just the environments that you've been in a lot of. Many of us were kind of taught to be independent and kind of not need anybody. And it almost sits with us in a way that can be detrimental to our relationships with other people. When you develop that hyper independence, that thick skin, it can be really hard. to be vulnerable with your partners. I actually had a therapist call this out to me one time, and there was a TED talk about vulnerability that I think we can link in the show notes, about people perceive needing help as being vulnerable, and no one likes to feel vulnerable. But I think even in polyamry, there's a step beyond that where we are afraid of being vulnerable, but we're almost more afraid of becoming codependent on people. This is a different type of dynamic. It's a different type of relationship structure where we have a lot of ability to date everybody or date nobody or date in a different way. And we don't want to fall into the traps that sometimes comes with monogamy, such as codependency and really falling into those traditional roles of partnership. So and sometimes polyamory culture actually enforces this. So you'll hear things say like no partner is the center of your. universe, but that can really quickly become, you know, you shouldn't rely on anybody or you shouldn't lean into anybody. And I don't even know if either of those two things is possible. Like, yeah, you should not have someone at the center of your universe and have them be everything in a codependent way. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't rely on anybody. And that kind of framework is missing from polyamory relationships, right? You have a built-in structure with monogamy of how things are supposed to be, but you lose some of that when you go to polyamory and you have to define your own rules. So how you depend on people can be different, whether you're in a long-term partnership, short-term partnerships, fully enmeshed in a family way, or just kind of familiar with some of those partners, all of that can look really different and give you a different lens on your own independence and how you're showing up for those partners. I really like what you talked about in terms of the codependency because you can absolutely find yourself in a hyper independence place because of codependency tendencies where you start to abandon yourself and disable your partner from being in your life or letting them into your life because they're like, I don't want to bother them. I don't want to put something on their plate. They're going through enough. And that's certainly my own tendency. And that's something that I need to work on because my hyper independence wants to keep me safe from that, in that it's sometimes difficult to allow for partners to come in. My own partners that says, you know, you can't say you want to build community, but not allow for community to be there for you, Doc. Like, that's not something that that you could do. And I think that really gets to some real challenges, I think, for a lot of people who've had past relationship trauma or past trauma or just past stressors in their life where they've needed to deal with things on their own. What, in fact, probably I haven't gotten to this place in my therapy yet, or at least I haven't heard it. I'm sure I've been told it, which is, you know, people have been there for you and maybe you just didn't let them in. I think that this sort of independence being good for you but also not good for you type thing can come up, especially in times of distress in your life. Like I'm feeling I'm overwhelmed this week or I'm going through a difficult time at work or I've got some healthy. issues and that sense of being a burden to your friends or to your pollicule or to your co-workers or whatever it might be can really, really come into play. And you can start to tell yourself a lot of stories about how bad it is that you need help, how shameful it is, that you need a little bit of support or even just a kind word from somebody, especially if you are the person who's like the champion and the cheerleader for your friends group or for your polycule, when You yourself need help. It can feel pretty shameful. Like, oh, my gosh, my positivity is waned here and I really need a lot of help. This goes even further when you know full well that your partner or whomever it might be, maybe has a full plate or maybe they're just telling you about how busy their life is. And your response to that is, you know what? I'm just going to, they got a lot going on. I'm just going to deal with it myself. And I'm going to deal with this in my own way. and in reality what you're doing, it's you're hurting, you're hurting yourself and you're hurting them because you're not allowing for them to come into your life. Yeah, I actually want to say something about that because I've been repeating this phrase to a lot of people lately. Don't make assumptions on behalf of other people. I get really annoyed when people make assumptions about my time and my activities because of my life and what I already have going on. They're like, oh, you're too busy. I didn't want to bother you. Never make assumptions for your partners. Like give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they do want to help. and at least ask them. Yeah, asking them to say, hey, do you have space to talk about something? I have a concern that's going on, and I just need a couple of minutes, or do you have emotional space for that? It can go a long way, and it can cue them up that they really need to be actively listening. Maybe they need to set their game pad down, or they need to, you know, turn their phone to silence so they can be focused on you. So it sets out an expectation that you're about to need some time. But it also could be for them to be able to say, absolutely. Can you give me like 10 minutes to wrap this and move on? I think that when we get, especially in times of distress, when we're not feeling really well, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, we're in a time of stress. We start to lean into those more base tendencies, those avoidant tendencies. I'm, you know, when I'm feeling stressed out, I'm like, I got to start canceling things. I got to start going within so that I can just have the amount of energy. I can use all the energy I have just to get through what I'm at. or, you know, maybe you're more on the anxious attached her side. We're like, oh, I'm such a burden to everybody. I'm just too much. I'm not, they've got a lot going on. And they're going to hate me because I, I've brought this to them before, whatever it might be. And your brain just starts telling you crazy stories. And I think that's really the hard thing is we all go through times in our life where we need help and we're afraid to ask for it from some other people. Kat, I know you've got a story and I've got a story as well. Yeah, definitely. This is really hard for me because I am that cheerleader, right? I always want to list people up. I always want them to feel good. And I am also hyperdependent from my upbringing. I was always, you know, figured out yourself, do it yourself, all that kind of stuff. And I really did struggle for the longest time with asking for help. And I'll say that I still do. I still have this big struggle. But I think it really sharpened for me a couple of years ago. I had a very major surgery. We were talking, like, had to travel for it. It was, you know, months and months and months of recovery. And the initial recovery cycle was extremely difficult. I couldn't walk. I had a walker. It was very invasive. And I remember struggling at that time to allow anyone to show up for me. I was always very much like, I can take care of it. I can take care of myself. I literally could not. I needed help. I had to find help. I had to be okay with. with people giving me help. And actually both of my partners sat with me on some counseling calls prior to the surgery. And we talked through some of how they were going to help me. And it made me really uncomfortable to talk about how vulnerable I was to be and how badly I was going to need this help. And I remember not being able to wash my hair or shower alone and how vulnerable I felt during those times. And I kept apologizing to my partners. I kept saying to them, like, I'm so sorry you have to take care of me. I'm so sorry. You have to do this. And my one partner in one day would just look me full in the face. They're like, let me do this for you. You do so much for other people. You need to stop apologizing. I would know, I would not want to be anywhere else. And it kind of freed me a little bit of some of that guilt and some of that like it's okay to need people sometimes. We're all human. It's part of the human experience. And it really kind of very, relieved a little bit of that guilt for me that this was something my partner wanted to do for me and they felt they felt good about being able to help me in that way when I needed it and they felt even better that I had chosen to trust them enough to be vulnerable with them and allow them to help me in that way. So that was huge for me. It wasn't just that you felt that you were safe to accept their help, but that they felt trusted to be able to offer that help within them, within their own well-being, right? Your partners were like, I'm capable of doing this. I'm going to do this for this person. It's because I love them because they need the help. Even if it's not anything that you needed help doing, sometimes it's just nice to have somebody else go grab you a bowl of ice cream from the kitchen as opposed to you hobbling there yourself or, you know, or cleaning a sink or doing whatever it might be. I imagine this came up for you quite a bit because you've been on your own. health journey the last few years. So how are you, how are you able to let or not let, you know, yourself accept help from the people that you loved? Yeah. So as Kat said, I've been on a bit of a health journey. This is my, this is the third time I've been on this health journey in my life. And so, you know, it's not, it's not a particular secret. I have cancer. And I've been working through that cancer. I'm at the, what, like 14 or 15 months in at this point for this particular round. And the first couple rounds of cancer, what they were, different form of cancer, carried with them some unfortunate traumas around being independent and not being cared for. So having people leave, having people not care for me, having to bend for my care, from people that were in my life, have left me with a lot of scars around. I'm going to take care of this, my literal goddamn self. Because then I don't have to fight with anybody. I don't have to for rides to the doctor. I don't have to deal with. I'm not feeling well or I'm dehydrated or I'm unable to be the person people think that I am without being in full view of somebody. At the time I was diagnosed, I had a relatively new partner. And that person just absolutely jumped in and, you know, was like, let's get you to these appointments. Let's do, let's make sure that you know that I'm here for you, that I can take care of things, we made sure that this person had a key to my house in case, you know, I became unresponsive, we're doing all sorts of things. And I think in that time, it was really hard for me to say, and this is something that my major illness therapist talks about a lot. Like from the moment that I started with this person, you haven't talked about your own feelings here. You've just been talking about how do you care for and manage the other people in your life? And I think for me, it was really hard to let my guard down, to not care for the people in my life, to not, and to say, yeah, I could use some help with this. I could use a ride to this, or I could use someone to make me dinner, or could use someone to pick up crooks'ries or whatever it was. I really had to take a step back. And because I was in therapy, at the time, I, you know, I had a therapist, and I also had a partner that were like, let us help you. Like, this is a major thing in your life. this isn't just a common cold pal like you've got a lot of treatment days you've got a lot of recovery days you've got a lot you're for the first time in your life getting exceptions from work like you need the help it's okay to ask for the help that you have i think that you know the interesting bit of this story too is at the time i also had another partner who was no longer in the picture who was also struggling with hyper independence in their own life and was unable to see their way clear for helping someone else. And I think that's the real trap of independence, especially if you're hyper-independent, is not only if you believe that you don't need the help, but that they don't need the help at the very toxic levels. And I think that that was really hard for me because I did begin to realize that I needed help. And then I was ashamed for needing help. And sometimes you just don't see that you need help. And there's a particular poignant story where I was very, very sick and very sepsis and needed to be in the ER. And one partner, like, making sure that I got there and another partner saying he's on his own, he's independent, he's going to do what he wants to do. And I think that for me, like, brought it into the focus that I needed to lean into my community. I need to accept help when it's offered. And so now I've been a habit of saying, yes, but it's still a little uncomfortable. It's like wearing wet socks. That's something I actually noticed during your journey. to make a comment on that is, I think one of the traps of the polyamorous way of thinking about independence too is, you can fall into the pattern of thinking someone else is going to do that for your partner. So I've seen this play out in a couple different ways where, you know, both partners, somebody's going to plan a birthday party. I don't know why I always go to birthday parties. I have a lot of trauma around birthday parties, guys. But somebody's supposed to plan the birthday party. And neither partner actually does it because they think another partner is going to do it. or you think the other person's partner, like your meta, is going to take care of the person in the way that you can't, or the way that they want to be taken care of. And then you kind of release yourself from that obligation to be there to take care of them. As opposed to lean in on that situation and say, how do we care for this person? And we'll talk some strategies later on in the episode. But that's an early one to be able to say, this person, our hyper-independent partner, who we adore. in love, needs more support and community. And so how do we work together to solve this problem and help them see how much they mean to us? Yeah. I think another layer that I witnessed, not to put you on a spot, but I've been friends with you a long time. But another thing that I kind of witness is if you are used to your partner being that sounding voice for you. So in my, in my example, I'll use myself as an example, my husband said to me, one time, like, I'm used to you knowing. I'm used to you, like, being a precog on what's going to be wrong before it's wrong and kind of addressing it head on. Like, they were relying on me and showing up for them in a way that was going to help avoid problems before they happen, right? So, if you're that partner that's doing that in your relationship, and then you're in need of help if you're not able to provide that, that can lead to hurt feelings and kind of a disconnect. and some of that distress because then they're saying, like, in your example, like your other partner was experiencing some things as well. And maybe they were used to you being the one that was holding the mantle and showing up for them and, you know, kind of being like, okay, you need to take care of yourself. You need to like chiming in with those reminders. But because you were unable to do that, you know, it could impact your relationship. I think that's another part of the complexity of polyamorous relationships. And even anonymous ones is. knowing when to show up for your partners and not just assuming that everybody knows what's going on, especially if there's these other components at play. Yeah, it can absolutely, it can absolutely become that whole, I offer all the time you say no, so I just stopped offering. And so that's probably what it sounds like in your relationship. And that's, that should be a warning sign that maybe there's some hyper independence things that we need to work on. and we need to work on how do we show up better for one another? Because there are probably ways that work, and there are probably ways that don't work depending on your individual partner. Yeah, I will say as a final note on this topic, that there's also an additional layer of complexity that I want to point out if there are kink dynamics at play, particularly in kind of the Dobbin sub realm. I have noticed this recently with my partners, not to put myself on the spot here, but I asked one of my partners who I do have that kind of relationship with to perform a reminder check on me daily. I'll just come right out and say it. Like, I ask them to make sure that I eat every day because I get really engrossed in my work. And sometimes I'm not always on top of that kind of stuff or I'm taking my ADHD medication and my appetite's gone. So I just said, like, hey, you know, can you gently nudge me every day around 3 o'clock to just be like, hey, what did you eat today? And, you know, that's kind of part of our dynamic. However, on the flip side of that, my other partner, does not take kindly to that because if they were to come up to me and say, hey, did you eat today? I would find it very combated and probably get mad about that. So just because you have one type of communication and dynamic about asking for help with one partner, that doesn't mean it's going to be universal to your other partners. So how you show up and ask for help with each of those partners may be different. Your level of independence with each of those partners may also be different because we're all unique people in our unique relationship. constellations. So just kind of be aware of that in the background that if your partner is being vulnerable with another partner in a way that you admire or maybe you're feeling a little jealous about, try to work through those feelings and find a different way to address them and just acknowledge that the layers of complexity of how vulnerable people can be with other people is going to be very, very individual to each couple within there. Yeah, that's well said. Like, that's really important too and that it's not it doesn't mean that there's lesser there or more there in other places it's just how that dynamic is worked out for sure um i'm curious for our listeners while we're about to go to break what messages did you get growing up about needing help about receiving care and how are you seeing those show up for you in your relationships today is a big impact little impact or have you never really thought about it so spend some time thinking about it and we'll be right back Thanks for listening to the episode so far. Let's talk about something that's been a lifesaver in the middle of this beautiful, busy, polyamory life. And that is staying hydrated and energized. Let's be real. Between managing multiple relationships, keeping up with work, parenting, and just squeezing in a little bit of self-care, it's easy to forget the basics, like drinking enough and staying hydrated. And that's where drink element comes in. 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The staying hydrated should not be another thing to stress out about in this whirlwind of Polyamory. Drink element makes that easy. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Now let's get back to the episode. In this segment, we're really going to talk about how we should marry up or maybe at least reciprocate the amount of love and support that we offer as partners to the amount of love and support that we receive from partners. And receiving love and support is its own unique skill. You may find yourself to be a very, very supportive person. You're a champion at work. You're the go-to person. People say, oh, I know a gal. I know a guy. You're that person. Like, that may be your specialty. And it certainly is, in my case, I find myself very much being able to be highly supportive and cheerleading in every aspect of my life. But receiving that love and care and support can be difficult. through a lot of different types of dramas and experiences and dramas that you might have experienced. And this is something that I think, at least in my own experience, is one that actually took practice skill with the therapists in a relationship so that I could get better at being able to receive the support and love that I provide and that, which is offered to me. And I think that once a relationship gets deep enough, as Kat mentioned before the break, whether it's through a dynamic or through it's in a meshment, right? It's it being able to receive that love and support ongoing is something that you need to continue to practice. It's super easy within a relationship to talk about how supportive you are. But have you really talk about how supportive they are and how do you receive that support? So it's not, it's easy for me to say, hey, my partner is very supportive, super champion, lets me know when things are going great. But I'm not necessarily great at talking about how do I receive that, right? We get into our humble texting of, oh, you know, you did so great on that X, Y, Z project, or you did so great on that dinner and you're like, ah, it's nothing. Or is that a new, is that a new outfit? Oh, this old thing, that sort of dismissiveness in our, in, in our old that sort of over humility that dismissiveness in our own the support and the care that we provide it's difficult to feel because I can't take a compliment this old thing yeah and I think that that's the same way it was support it's like oh yeah no like it would be absolutely helpful if you put my head out because it's on fire but you know get to it when you get to it like that's sorry about it and I think That's, we need to start talking about how do we receive support from our partners when we need that support and that help. And being able to tell, I think both Katner being able to tell our surgical stories and more in depth. We certainly didn't cover that in this episode. But being able to tell that story, we're able to point to a time in our life where we needed the support, acceptance support, and how that worked out for us. which now gives evidence for our partner showing up for us in the future and being able to say, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. One little story that I'll kind of throw in here is that my partner will stay here. And like I'm so used to just make, like being a host and like making dinners and making meals. And then having my partner like say, hey, I'm going to come over. but I'm going to bring dinner, it's like, I'm always like, yes, but that's great. But in my heart, I'm like, but wait a minute. But so, but being, but that's a really small example, which makes my life infinitely easier. I don't need to think about dinner. I don't need to think about plans. I know that I could jump in and cook if I wanted to, but being able to have a partner who's looking at things from a reciprocal standpoint saying, hey, let me take care of that for you, or let me take care of this. Also happy to sit down and full laundering with me and all those things and being able to allow for partners to show up in small ways so that when you need them in big ways, they're there and it's not so damn awkward. So that's a big thing as being able to identify. I think of it kind of like a muscle. You have to kind of practice and build that consistency so that when you do need it the most, you're able to accept that because you've accepted the small thing. right you've accepted the little things so now when you need something big right you have that that muscle built that's right and it and it's confusing i think if we're not trying if we're not i'm not saying let your partners do everything for you that's not this message but when you need support or help or it's a it's a kindness and you could use that those little kind of small moments of support really do help lay the foundation and creating a culture within your molecule or within your relationship that supporting one another is okay. I don't always have to cook a meal. I don't always, my partner is an amazing cook. I don't have to cook every meal. My partner, you know, is amazing at picking television shows that we don't need, like, I don't need to do, be in charge of all these things so that we can have a good time. And so what the, I think another thing is like when we keep saying no, so going back to our own behavior and what we said before the break, like when you refuse help all the time, it does create a culture within your relationship where like, well, I've offered in the past, you keep saying no to that, right? It's that notion of, you know, the monogamous myth of, well, I keep trying to have physical relationship with you, but you keep saying no, so I just stopped asking. And we start to feel internally shame. But when we keep saying no, what's happening is that we're shutting our person out. They want to love us. They want to support us. And we're like, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Because we think that whole hyper independence thing is how we show love. when reality we're selling ourselves out, we're making them feel helpless, we're making them feel confused, we're making them feel frustrated that they're like, why the fuck can I just do this for you? And so doing those kind of small things over time, yeah, absolutely, that's great. Like, you know, bring, you know, bring ice cream over to the house. We don't have to go for ice cream or whatever it might be. That can help lay that groundwork for those smaller health support systems. for when you do need something big. Like you need somebody to help. We need your molecule to help you move or you're going away for a couple of weeks and you need your molecule to watch your house or watch your pet or whatever it might be. That's also confusing. It's like, wait a minute. I offer to help all the time. And now you have a big inconvenience and we haven't been able to deposit into our emotional bank account around the support issue. Yeah. I really think it comes down to letting someone help you is a gift. gift, right? It's a gift to let someone help you because it is the ultimate sign of trust, intimacy, belonging, and connection, right? You don't let strangers often help you, like, unless you're in a middle of a snowstorm, but it's not often that you let strangers in and allow them to help you in that way. So you really, you really signal trust and, you know, really respect for the other person when you allow them to help you. And this is especially true. if your partner is an acts of service person, it'd put me forever to figure out that my husband is actually an acts of service person. Like, he loves doing stuff for other people. Not like crazy stuff, but like he likes to feel useful. He likes to feel helpful. He enjoys that kind of connection. And it's like the strangest thing to me is like I'm not a great cook. I can cook just fine. I'm not like a burn the water person. But I don't actually enjoy it all that much. Very rarely do I enjoy. it. So both of my partners cook for me. And that is something that enjoy doing, that they do it for me. And I really appreciate that because it kind of alleviates some of the tension of having to do it myself. But even something, this is really vulnerable, but something that my husband does almost every night is he talks me into bed, which feels like such a, I rallied against it for so long in so many years that it made me feel small. made me feel like a baby. I didn't really like it. But when I examined it, actually in therapy, I examined why I didn't like it. It was less about not actually liking it and more about the guilt and feeling childish and not, you know, that kind of thing. But for him, it was a way for him to end his day. And that little ritual was really important to him. And the more I resisted it, the more disappointed he became. And I actually enjoyed it. I just was resisting being able to accept that kind of service from my partner. because of all the things we've already mentioned, right? I had hyper-independent. Like, this feels childish. I don't want, I don't need somebody to do this for me. I can go get my own water and my own heat pad and I can tuck myself in a bed. But letting that happen was me showing that I trust him. I trust her intimacy that he knows exactly what I want when I go to bed. All that kind of stuff is how he wants to show his love for me so that the last thing that happens before I go to bed is I know he loves me and cares for me and wants to tuck me in and make sure that I feel love. when I go to sleep at my thing, which is hugely amazing. Like, we share that level of intimacy that I don't think we could replicate another way. And if I continued to resist and say, no, I don't know that we would have found another way to do it in quite a succinct fashion, right? Sorry, I'm an efficiency person. Like, that is a really nice way to end your day and to reestablish that partnership. So really letting people show up for you can be a gift to them, too. Like, they're going to get joy out of that. They're going to feel useful. They're going to feel helpful. Like, they're getting something out of it. Even if it's not a tip for tat, like, oh, you bought me dinner. Now I have to buy you dinner. Even if it's not something like that, which it shouldn't be. They are getting something out of it because they're enjoying the fact that you let them. It's not just the act of letting them do something for you. Receiving can also be a gift, right? Learning to graciously receive is an act. That's an active part of this exchange. as well. That's right. It takes practice to be able to receive with humility, with compassion, with not being an arrogant son of a bitch, but like, I didn't need your out anyway. You don't need to be like that. Receiving really is, and it's not simply an expression of gratitude. Receiving begins before the act of receiving that support. And really, it begins with being able to be more comfortable with naming your needs, like what do you need and what can you use help with, but also being able to accept that you might not know and someone else might. I think you're exactly right. Like being able to trust the experience and trust that when you do need it the most, again, goes back to that muscle memory, being able to receive that care in the small moments. So when you can't accurately express yourself and actually come out and say, like, I need this thing, your partner may be able to show up for you anyway. They might be able to realize, okay, this is something that needs to be done and show up for you in that way. That's right. And having the trust within that relationship, not only the trust in the relationship, the trust in that person's capability. So if this were an emotionally immature partner who didn't have the foggiest idea of how to run their life or they, you know, you just fell into the noise of poly, polydramal, and poly chaos in your relationship and you're like, this person could not find their way out of a paper bag. Like they can't find their ass with both hands. I can't trust that person to be able to be there in my life. If they can't take care of their own life, that they're not doing their own things, it can, that the capability of it, especially somebody who tends towards hyper independence, if you look at somebody you're like, bur, yo, bro, you're not capable wiping your own ass, much less helping me in my life. So being able, receiving does require for you to be actively building in trust and capability within your relationship so you can see what that person is more capable of doing for yourself, or doing what that person is more capable of doing for your relationship when there are times of needs. There, you know, there's this saying of, if you can't handle me at my worst you can't get me it in my best and i don't love that saying them because i feel like that gives permission to be an asshole but i think that i think that your person your partner knowing you at times of struggle at times where you're not feeling your best and seeing what those are they have an objective perspective on your experience and they are the ones who you might not see that you're bringing this cooking you might not see that your body is rejecting you might not see how you act after after an emotionally difficult day, whereas they do, and they can without just as your partners have a ritual of taking care of you and making sure your brain can get shut down so you can get some sleep, allowing our partners to kind of be able to be there in times of struggle and discomfort in that they are familiar enough with your habits and your ways, that they can be fine. They've developed strategies to be like, hey, cool it now. Or, hey, we really need to get this moving or, like, I know you don't want to get up out of bed or or it might be, they know those times of struggle and they know how to best fit you to keep you moving. It's also important to know what it is that you need and what works. And again, this is a two-way street. Like, this is about you knowing, but also about you learning what works through your relationship with your partner. So being able to name some of the things that you need. Like, hey, could you just sit with me? Well, I go through this, why I feel this experience, why I feel this feeling. And this just happened in the week prior to, our recording here. I was having a very emotionally difficult week. I reached out to Kat and said, hey, look, I can't record. I just need to shut down and I need to kind of sit with my own feelings here. And that's support. Like that being, I was like, yeah, let's reschedule for early next week is like support and that's what you need. Or even like to the degree of like, hey, can you check in on me a little bit later, make sure that I'm okay. It's something my partner asks a lot. Can you check in with me at this so in such a time make sure that I'm keeping track of what I need to keep track of or whatever it might be or can you remind me that I'm not alone or remind me that you're here in whatever ways or you know or hey can you just come over and bring some dinner or can you know can we just get me can you come over can we order some tour to edge or whatever it might be yeah I think that that is super important I'm remembering a partnership that I'm no longer in where I did ask for those things. And, you know, I think I literally said, can you just come over and sit with me because I was, I was afraid and I was going through some stuff and I was alone and I wanted, you know, the presence of someone else. And they made a huge deal about it. And they were like, no, why are you being so difficult? And basically, they were very gaslighty with me about, about being needy and about asking for help and all those things. And at that moment, it felt terrible, but it made me realize, you know, those are the types of people. And then, the types of partnerships I did not want were people who treated my vulnerability and my asking for help as, you know, a burden and a threat and something like that. So I love some of the phrases that you came out with. Like, can you just sit with me while I feel this? Like being able to ask for that stuff is really powerful. And again, it's a level of trust that you're going to trust the person to provide it to you. And if they can't do that, you know, maybe you need to reevaluate that relationship and how that person can show up for you in your life. that's right and if you're just sitting there listening like boy my partner really does need to let me in you can use those things like hey can i can i just sit with you while you feel as i don't need to solve this for you i just want to be here i want to be present with you or hey i want to let you know you're not alone in this i know it's stuck right now you're going through the you're going through the suck but i'm here for you and you're not alone or hey would it be okay if i check in on you in a couple hours make sure you know you're getting things done it's okay for you and see other their partner to be able to offer these things and offer your support and do it in a way that's that's affirmative response like no no no don't bother checking it on me sounds like as a as a high brain dependence person in recovery even if you said hey can i check it on you my response to be like yeah sure if you want to like so so go ahead and do that so as we go to the break i really want you to think about a couple of questions right so think about in what ways have you allowed for your partner to learn who you are in time, in good times and in struggling times, and how have, and how is that led to them showing up for you in a better way? Again, receiving is, is a skill that you need to develop. And so it begins with sort of, in what ways have I accepted the love and support of my partner in times where I've been struggling in times where I might not have been and how did that look and feel and manifest for me in our relationship. Are you enjoying this episode? Sure, with your pollicule or anyone curious about ethical non-monogamy. Don't forget to tell you on social media with your thoughts. We're happy to welcome you to the conversation. So let's talk about how do we practice. We said we need practice. I love to talk about muscle memory because a lot of things, the more you practice, the better you get, and the more natural they become. So how do we practice receiving care, giving care, having that emotional safety to both ask for what you need, but also be able to actually receive that and not fight against it and not let your hyperdependence kind of negate it. So even when it's uncomfortable, the most important thing to remember is you don't need to wait until you're kind of falling apart to let someone in. But when you are falling apart, that muscle memory should kick in, right? That's when it really becomes real. So start before the crisis. Try to normalize the giving and receiving of care over little things. If your partner wants to make you coffee in the morning, let them. If your partner wants to tuck you into bed, let them. If your partner says, hey, do you mind if I pick up lunch for us, let them do that for you? Try to give them opportunities to show up for you and do the same for them. You know, if your partner is the hyper-independent one, give them little pieces of care. Give them little things that they can accept over time. One of my favorite examples of this is when my husband was actually hospitalized, for an acute medical issue. I do not accept help well from other people, so I was caring for my kids. My other partner was working, so they weren't really available. But he was in another hospital for around three months. And I had put a note out to my community because I kind of had to step back for a while. And I was like, hey, just so you know all my husband's in the hospital. People did not actually ask me if they could help me. I had a few people reach out, feel like, let me know if you need anything. But when you're in that type of crisis, sometimes it's hard. to receive that or think of what you need, right? But I had a few friends who actually just sent me dinner. They sent me a DoorDash gift card. They sent me a New Greeds gift card. I had one friend in particular who was a longtime friend of my husbands, who I'm not particularly close with. But she literally went to Costco and bought a bunch of food, a bunch of trays, a pre-preprop meal and had them and dropped them off of my house. No questions asked. No, you know, just, hey, I'm going to drop this off for you. And I didn't really have a chance to say no. And I, appreciated it so much. So sometimes, if you know your partner well enough, you can start to give these little bits of care to be like, I thought of you and I got you this, or hey, I know you're having a tough day. Let me bring you a latte. Let me bring you a bubble tea. Let me bring you something. Sometimes those little bits of giving without expecting reciprocation, start to build that muscle to let that person trust you to show up for them. But then start to have those conversations. about, hey, I just need you to sit with me. I'm having a bad day. Give them those verbal invitations to kind of reinforce some of the actions. Actions always speak louder than words. So if you can reinforce your words with your actions, start with those small things so that when you do need the care because life happens or something big happens or you need support or somebody's going through a breakup or something like that, you have that muscle memory to lean back into. It really is about building that culture of emotional safety within your partnerships, within your polycule, so that it's more than just, and I did mention within your partnerships, but also within your pollicule, because there will be times, even if you're a parallel where one of you is in crisis, that the other partners will also need to be part of it. And so building that place of emotional safety can really help you with both continuing to offer the support so that you feel like your, offers are being heard and understood and appreciated, even if not always taken up on, and also for a way for you to receive that support in a way that doesn't feel shameful or discompassionate or whatever it might be. So within your relationship, there's a couple of things that are going to happen. One is you're going to inevitably get into a place where you need support and you need help and you're not going to know that you're being a complete butt head in that moment. Like you're going to feel stressed out. You're going to be acting a full. And so that's going to happen. And within the partnership, within the pollucule, being able to say, okay, that was a shitty experience that no one really loved. Let's talk about what support looks like when times are hard or when we might need more support than we're able to realize in the moment. So talking a little bit about that, get a relationship check-in or just an easy conversation like, hey, I really want to be able to support you. And I find it difficult when I'm telling you good things and you're telling me to go shut up because you're not a good person. So can we just sometimes have a moment where you're not speaking and you just hear the words or whatever that might be? Not that that's past experience or anything, but, you know, we are a podcast hosts. Good chance we talk a lot. So being and I think a big part of that is also reassuring each other that love is not dependent upon. on being easy to be around. If you are in a loving relationship that actually is deep, it actually cares about things. This goes that absolutely bullshit saying that if you can't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best. But being able to love that person all the way around and their 360 degrees of feelings is important. And being able to say, hey, look, I don't care that you're having a stressful day. I can just be happy to sit with you. Yeah. I'm counting we need to say that again. Right. I don't care that yeah, that you're, you're having a bad day, right? I just need to be able to sit with you and that's it. Like, you don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to just be like, you're being, you have a bad day. Fuck you. Call me when you're, call me when you're in a better mood. Like that sort of emotional immaturity and it's difficult to manage within a relationship. I think that it, it's inevitable that in a time of your life where, you're going, you know, where you need support or even if it's just like little things like, you've been getting dinner all week. Could you please stop doing that? There's going to be moments where the, where the pace of life or the heck business of life are going to build in an intensity into your life and being able to have some sort of a way for you to have a break from that experience. Like, hey, why don't we just, you know, why don't you, why don't you go for a walk? And then when you get back, like, I'll have tea ready or whatever it might. resist the urge to weaponize people helping you. I will point that out that in the moments of my frustration with my murder and when I am having difficulty with my partner, I will often rally against that tucking into bed, right? I'll go back to that example. I will rally against them helping me. My hyper-independence will kick into overdrive and I will purposely resist and weaponize them trying to help me because I'm hurt or I'm in a tense mood or I'm feeling you know, whatever. I'm in my feelings. Really try to resist the urge to webonize people helping you. And, you know, it could come out and say like, oh, you're smothering me. Like, can you just stop? Like, leave me alone. I don't want this right now. Like all that kind of stuff. Recognize that that is you and not them. And they're just trying to be helpful because weaponizing their help is not going to lead you to a good place. And it kind of erodes some of that trust that you've been building to this process. It works the other way, too, when you weaponize your support of, of, like, I'm always trying to support you and you're not, and you're never saying yes. Like, could that, like that, that works, it works the same way. Like, I like you to call that emotional blackmail. I do so much for you. And now you're not being grateful. Like, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if you're in a one side of relationship, that's an easy trap to fall into. And just all of these are easy traps to fall into. And I, and I, I think that that kind of gets to having a conversation in your relationship at a time that maybe isn't so tense and maybe isn't so distressed to be able to say when I'm having a hard time at work, these are the things that I like. This is kind of my capacity for connection with you. Like I need like, you know, I think about like when my kids were little and I was working in a job that was absolutely horrid and I would come home and I would just need like literally 15 minutes. to deprogram my brain and switch gears from the ramped in the car on the way home to my home life. And that's the same thing with relationships. But we needed to be able to, we need to be at times where we're not stressed out to be able to say, look, when I'm having a bad day, or I'm hungry, or I'm this, or I'm not, this is what my capacity for connection looks like. These are the types of things that I need, inviting them to be around, even if times are a little bit hairy a little bit messy to be like hey I'm having a bad day but like I give me like 10 minutes and you know I'll you know maybe maybe today we can go out for dinner or if you're the partner and like yeah absolutely want to hang out with you maybe instead of making dinner tight we can just kind of go out or we can go for a walk before dinner or whatever it might be also like create an environment with your partners that they don't have to fix everything in your life like they don't have to fix everything each time and they don't have to fix everything in your life because that will the danger here with all these things is that it can build in a sense of codependency into your relationship and if you're the partner whose life is absolutely chaotic and you need your partners to fix everything for you you're not ready to be in a relationship i'm going to say it that's my hot take if you're if you can't fix anything for yourself and you don't have a trap record of doing that get out and sorry sorry that's me that's that me. Don't get out. Get therapy. Get out and get therapy. And so, but you don't have to allow for your partner understand. You don't have to fix this. You can witness it. You can hear it. You just acknowledge that it exists. They can fix part of it just by being a present or, and they don't have to fix everything in your life. Like be able to be capable of supporting yourself, of course, but being able let your partner go, hey, you don't have to fix this. And that's something that I say to my partner all time. Hey, you don't have to fix this. I just need someone to witness it. I really love that. And I love the, I believe there was an old trick. I heard that when somebody has like something to say or they're ranting, I used to do this a lot when I had a much more stressful job as well. I'd come home from work and man, did I want to rage? I wanted to rage out about people at work. And I saw or read it. I got it from somewhere. But it basically was like, ask your partner. Do they want help problem solving? or are they just venting? And that helps you set the tone for the entire conversation. Like, do you want me to help you? Do you want me to offer solutions? Do you want me to help fix this? Or do you just want me to sit with you and listen so you can feel heard? Like, setting those type of parameters around those conversations is really, really helpful. But as an additional layer on that on receiving care, like, is there something you want me to do after this conversation so that you can feel supported? Like, do you want me to make you a cup of coffee? Do you want me to get you your fuffy bunny slippers? You want your fluffy bunny slippers? Okay. So here's your onesie. Here's your fluffy bunny slippers. Here's your cup of coffee. Glad you got it out of your system. Let's go relax and do something else. I think that can be a really nice way to kind of assess what level of care that person needs right now and give them an opportunity to tell you. But yeah, I think that's a form of partial care as well. You don't have to perform all the rituals that you previously might have done. If they come home in a different mood or a different thing, they might just need a simple care. They might just say, I need you to listen to me for five minutes. And then I need you to walk away and give me 15 minutes to chill out. And that is a form of care, right? Listening and responding is a form of care. And really listening, I will say that, really listening and letting that person tell you what they need. And then responding to that instead of always making assumptions is also very, very helpful. So yeah, let all that land with you. If you were the hyper-independent one and you're not great at being cared for, practice feeling that gratitude. I love the adage. And this is actually something I've heard about women in business, right? We always say, oh, sorry to bother you or I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm late is a big one. Instead of apologizing, just say thank you. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for waiting. Thank you for doing this. So don't apologize for needing your partner because they need you to. in some way. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't be together. And they want you there, right? I think it's especially true in monogamous relationships. There's a sense of need, right? I need you. I need you. I need you. In polyamory, we are empowered to have what we want instead. So I don't need a second partner. I'm choosing. I'm actively choosing to be with somebody because I value them, because I love them, not because I need somebody, but because I want you there. So fall back into that. It's not a need. It's a want. And it's a really a conscious choice. So instead of apologizing for meeting them, be grateful. Thank you for your, thank you for paying attention to me in this way. My husband and I do this dumb little thing where we touch pinkies and we say, I appreciate you. And then I say, whatever it is, I appreciate. But especially in times of stress, you know, it's small stuff. Like, I appreciate you take you out. the garbage. I appreciate you walking the dog. Stuff like that really does make a difference. And again, it builds those relationship muscles that you can use to both enforce your own autonomy, but also support your partner when your partner needs up. As a final thought, I would just say, be kind to yourself. This seems like a lot. And of course, polyamory is work, right? It's not just wake up one day and everything's hunky-dory. But there isn't a gold standard. There's no prize for being the most supportive partner or there's no prize for receiving the most help, right? There's no magical bar in the sky. There's no judge. There's no jury. Thank God there's no executioner here either. But there's no gold standard for how you need to show up for your partner because every single person is different. So maybe you are the partner that needs a lot of care and support. Great. Tell your partner that be clear about what you need and what you don't need. Maybe you're the partner that's struggling with it. Try to find those little ways to show up for yourself. We're all a work in progress. Just be kind to yourself on your journey as you're trying to show up better for both yourself and your partners and to let your partners show up for you. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing and follow us at Poly Pathways podcast on all the social medias that you enjoy.