speaker-0: Welcome to Life by Design. I'm your host Robin, and I am thrilled to welcome you to this space for real conversations about how we live, how we show up day in and day out, because the quality of our life is shaped by our habits. What we do in ordinary time allows us to be extraordinary. We can unpack what it takes to truly live well and be well in real life. Welcome to Life by Design. And I'm just so excited that you are here on today's episode. I'm joined by Melanie Diesel. Now, Melanie is a colleague who I came to know through our Epic community, my community of practice that I participate in. And she is a problem solver. She is somebody who has spent lots of time supporting people on how do they unpack these wicked problems and what's that secret ingredient to be able to do it. Interestingly, It's all about creativity. Now in our time together, we explore Melanie's good work and we also take a wee bit of a pivot where we talk about this idea of figuring out who we are in that big question of how we show up and how we navigate it. And she talks very candidly about her experiences as somebody who had a late in life diagnosis. And this is full of very useful information. So I hope you enjoy this episode of Life by Design. with my friend Melanie Diesel. Melanie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad that you are here today.
speaker-1: Me too, so glad to be here.
speaker-0: Awesome. Okay. So for friends, you and I connected through our community of practice through Epic and I was just so, your work is just refreshing. And if you could tell the listeners, just a wee bit of a snapshot of the good work you're up to these days, I would love to introduce you to this community.
speaker-1: Yeah, so my life's mission, I suppose you could say, is teaching people to access their creativity more easily. And that started out in sort of a journalism and marketing context where I was helping marketers, advertisers, and sales professionals understand how to think more like journalists, how to come up with story ideas, how to think more narratively. And over the years, it's really expanded to all kinds of professionals who I'm really helping with creative operations. How do you set up a system? that suits the way your brain works, that allows you to access creativity and be creative on a regular basis, when we know that most of the business world that we are forced to operate in kind of runs counter to the way creativity runs. And so it's a dance that we're teaching folks on how to balance those creative needs with the sort of business realities to make sure they're able to do that creative work that fuels them so much.
speaker-0: Yeah, Melanie, I absolutely love this because I love when people like connect the dots, right? Like that's one of the things I think as knowledge translators, as you know, folks are able to connect the dots. And one of the things when I first heard your work, was how here we are in a lot of these business settings, a lot of these corporate things, but even navigating a household, right? That's a little operation as well. Yeah, pretty big operation. And what I appreciated so much is that connection and that, again, connecting the dots between that role of creativity to be able to find solutions, to use that critical thinking. And essentially, we're activating different parts of our brain. And so often, I think we get... almost trapped in that beta brainwave where that hustle do perform. And like the creative part would be like a nice to have. It's like this on the side and what you're doing and what I see is you're braiding that very important creative piece to say this isn't like an afterthought. This can actually improve all of these operations.
speaker-1: Yeah, and a lot of times what I find when I'm working, sometimes it's like a solopreneur who's just feeling stuck, right? Like I'm not able to write as much as I used to, or it's a huge operation, know, a Fortune 100 company or something. But yeah, a lot of times I find when we solve for those creative blocks, like those systems that are preventing the creative thinking, a lot of the other problems end up solving themselves as a result. Because what we find is, you know, the... the mental state that you're in when you feel like you have a story to tell or an idea to put forth and it's constantly getting shut down, you're being silenced, you're being pushed aside, like that has far reaching effects from a mental health, from a burnout standpoint, from a feeling valued at your job, from a relationship standpoint. So when we can solve for that, it does really tend to have ripple effects across the organization or across the home or the group. And we see those benefits kind of ripple outward, which is really nice.
speaker-0: beautiful. And so what would you say are some of the like on routes for us to start thinking about how we can incorporate more creative opportunities within these relatively structured days, right? Whether that be like time structure or just the nature of how we have these systems. Where do people, you know, because often I think when we hear creativity, like, you know, I kind of jump to like artists. talk to people who like have these beautiful modes of expression. you know, as somebody who kind of leans to wear more like, you know, logical, just heart, I always feel like that creative creativity piece is like almost like that other realm that I don't really know a lot about. So I'm so curious, where do we like start thinking about how to bring more creativity into our days?
speaker-1: First, I just have to say it's like my favorite and least favorite thing when people say like, ⁓ creativity is like the other people do that. I'm not the creative type. It's my favorite because I know we can fix it, but it's my least favorite because I know that the system has, you know, whatever system you're operating in has conditioned you to feel that way. And that breaks my heart, right? The first thing I think is the consciousness of it is like having these kinds of conversations and recognizing that if we want time, to have critical thinking, to problem solve, to look, think outside the box, whatever ⁓ phrasing speaks to you, it needs to be something that's intentional. And I think so that first step is really awareness and just knowing, okay, let's take a look at this. Like how is the way that I work conducive or not conducive to thinking differently, to having time to think? That's where I think the first, that's really the first step is that awareness. Cause that's where we can find opportunities to improve. And oftentimes the opportunity really is to have that dedicated time, however many minutes it is. doesn't, I'm not saying you have to stop all progress for an entire day, ⁓ but finding those moments to say like, this is a time for me to not worry about the limitations and just think big. That can really be a game changer when you find those moments wherever they may be in your day.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's so beautiful. And what I'm thinking about and what you're, you know, threads I'm pulling out. And again, this is reflecting on your work that I had been, I heard in December and like now a little while later is just this idea about this spaciousness. When I hear you say creative and I also hold total space, you're absolutely right in terms of, you know, it's what you're saying about like, ⁓ I'm people who perceive themselves as not a created or not something, you the same as, you know, I remember when I was teaching, was, you know, you hear these little ones like little, little ones saying things like, Oh, I'm not a math person. And it's like, Oh no, everyone is a math person. Everyone has this capacity. And again, you're right. It's the messaging that we pick up along the way. One of the things that I see here is that that notion of really that invitation to this spaciousness to allow just this opportunity to hold space in that realm and be able to see what's possible. And again, that piece around self-awareness and intention, it goes with everything. If we're always in autopilot, we're missing these opportunities. ⁓
speaker-1: My favorite exercise is when you have someone, because I'm sure there's someone listening who is like, I hear what you're saying, but still I'm not like, I'm not, you know me personally, you know? My favorite prompt is think of all the ways you've imagined things could go wrong. That is creative thinking. You are imagining, you are thinking of possibilities. They are very rarely grounded in reality, right? Like you, there's all kinds of crazy thinking happening there. We're just putting it to the wrong prompt.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: Right. So it is within you a hundred percent, but oftentimes we're conditioned to use those, you know, use those talents for, for catastrophizing instead of imagining, you know? So yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think it's like an incredible privilege and an opportunity to see that possibility and think, my God, you're right. I'm such a creative catastrophizer. Now I can put it to use in a different context, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I really like that reframe because we talk about that in my work around this idea that you're catastrophizing or you're imagining the worst or right now I hear a lot of people saying like, you know, not to get your hopes up, right? Like again, we're just kind of trying to buffer and managing control. What's so fascinating to me is it's like, it's a working hypothesis. You're taking a few variables, you're making a hypothesis. So your prediction is it's going to go wrong. Whereas you can also with intention, establish a working hypothesis where this could go right. And again, the importance of, for example, if you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to, you know, thinking about starting something new, having examples like representation is so key. And instead of thinking of all those folks that are like, oh, that's not a good idea. What are you doing? that, you know, nobody there's, you know, that ship is gone or that ship is sailed or whatnot. Being like, look at the people who are kind of where you want to be. And that is literally a blueprint. is a hundred percent. And that could be a new working hypothesis that I want to build something in that direction. again, if we're going to give hold space for what could go wrong, what a beautiful invitation to hold space for what could go right.
speaker-1: You have to allow for like an almost irrational imagining of success, right? Like to the same degree that you, maybe you still catastrophize in some instances, but you have to allow for that same level of irrationality on the other end of it. You know, as we're recording this, it's the Olympics are happening. And I think that's another great instance of like, yeah, sure. Most athletes don't go to the Olympics, but the ones who do are the ones who believe, right? The ones who have imagined that success. They've, they've, they've put in that effort to imagine what that could be like and to hold onto that. And so I think whatever your problem is solving, maybe it's not, you know, whether you can do a 10 80, ⁓ you know, that's not your challenge. Maybe it's like, how am I going to, I don't know, make ends meet this month, or maybe it's how am I going to deal with the challenge that I'm having, you know, with my partner or with my child? Like you can apply that same level of like what. What could go right? How could we imagine that this could possibly evolve in a positive direction? And it doesn't have to be realistic. It doesn't have to be ⁓ logical. It doesn't have to be feasible because those big ideas are the ones that give you the inspiration for the middle ideas that may actually be feasible and realistic and affordable, whatever your constraints are.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what you're saying? I love that example of the Olympics because I remember talking to an Olympian a few years back and we actually, you know, we're talking about like stress and pressure and you know, this kind of notion of this obsession of what they're doing. And this one Olympian said to me, I am just so thankful I found my sport because if I hadn't found my sport, I guarantee you I would have been a drug addict. And I was like, ⁓ tell me more. Right? Like that was like, just like, tell me more. He said the same way, he said, I assume somebody like Jones's and craves their drug. He said, that is what my sport became to me. He's like, I obsess over it. There is never a day that I don't wake up and know that I have to find it somehow. I have to improve it. I have to master it. And he said that like, had I not been exposed to sport early on, And know there, you know, some people subscribe this notion of an addictive personality, which again, there's lots of research that says it doesn't quite work like that. There's an necessarily, you know, a particular temperament or personality that makes you more susceptible. But this idea that had he not found a way to channel that drive, that hunger, that need, it could have gone off the rails really quickly. Right? what that reminds me of is the same as what you're saying is that like, Cast it out forward, right? That forward casting. Imagine what's possible. again, when I see, especially with those high performers, they just do it longer. They just stay in it longer than the average person, right? And I really think, yes, there's skill, talents and gifts. I'm not discounting that. They just stick with it longer than most people do.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think, you know, as you're talking about it now, I don't think I would have gone the drug route probably, just given the way that things worked for me. ⁓ But I will say I'm a person who has struggled with anxiety and depression at various points in my life. And what is that, if not a rational imagining of the worst case scenario, right? And so think whether I maybe realized it or not, this is a reframing of that same skill that was working to my detriment and now I'm working on using it to my advantage and teaching others to do the same.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I appreciate that, Sharon. You're absolutely right. And that's why I think so often when we think about anxiety and that notion of like we're in the future with that feeling of catastrophe, we're also in that future with that fear of not being able to handle it. We're in that fear of all of a sudden we'll get overwhelmed by it. So we're trapped in that forward thinking. And then when we think about depressive episodes, it's like we're so drawn back to the past. And again, it's that deep rumination and just energetically, it's such a heavy emotion to process, which actually makes catastrophizing more accessible to us. Because if we're feeling this density of these emotions, it's easier as our meaning maker brains try to do. be like, I have to find an anesthesia and have to find a trigger. have to find a reason to feel this bad or this, you know, this anxious or this low. And so it, the brain naturally tries to come up with justifications. It wants to give us context where again, as we say, talk about, we're, know, natural born meaning makers. So I get, appreciate how, what you're articulating and putting language to an experience for people is ⁓ my goodness, like this is a part of a process that we're able to engineer things ever so slightly that actually could have some big benefits.
speaker-1: Yeah, well, one of the things that I really love about this work too is ⁓ the way that people find solutions for such challenging problems, I find really inspiring. know, when we look at whether it is athletes or, you know, inventors, scientists, whoever it is that you're idolizing that's a high achiever of some kind, it is often that they are solving complex problems in an unexpected way, right? Regardless of how that comes to fruition. And so that is a skill that if practice, stiff mastered can really meaningfully transform your life, not just in a day to day, like I'm able to reframe maybe this otherwise negative scenario, but I'm able to see a career path that I never would have considered because now I see overlap in skill sets or I'm able to see a future for myself that I couldn't have imagined because it didn't seem realistic. You know, I'm going back to school or I'm, you know, pursuing a different type of relationship in my life or whatever the case may be. it's really rewarding to kind of watch that problem solving skill. We're framing it as creativity, but it is really, a problem solving skill that can be so beneficial in so many different contexts.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. Which also leads me to get at this curiosity around why does it feel like sometimes all of these, and I'm curious what your take is on this. Some of these like neat ideas or these like big ideas or these like what we call aha moments or eureka moments or breakthroughs seem to happen in the most unexpected places. They never happen at boardroom tables. They never really happen at like strategic retreats. so often when I do have breakthroughs with folks that I'm working with, it's usually in the nature of like a report back, right? Where they'll be like, you know, Robin, we're trying to handle this wicked problem. It's super complex, all these moving parts. And then I hear them say like, ⁓ my gosh, I was out walking my dog on Saturday morning and then all of sudden, boom, this thing just came to me ⁓ or the shower, right? The other one people talk about is like in the shower. So what's that all about, Melanie?
speaker-1: look, we can go super technical on how the brain works. My initials are MD, but I am not the doctor here, so I'm not going to go that route. ⁓ But what I can tell you is it's about the constraints of those environments in some way, right? When we are in a boardroom at an offsite at a super formal begin your brainstorm now, our goal is actually not to come up with a big disruptive idea to do something different. Our goal is to be efficient. Our goal is to communicate effectively. Our goal is to get to the end of that. part of the agenda and move on to team building next, right? The conditions are not set up for free thinking, right? And that's really what a lot of the problem solving, the creative thinking is, is that associative thinking that's free. And so when you are in the shower, when you are walking the dog, you are, I don't know, cleaning the tub, like whatever you're doing, your mind is set to a different task. And so you can allow, I call it like your background tabs have finally loaded, you know, when you have too many tabs open. When you're focused on a different task, those background tabs can keep loading. And so you make those connections that you wouldn't have otherwise if you were staring at it. It's like, well, you know, a watched pot never boils. mean, it's the same sort of logic in my mind is when your brain is free to think outside those confines, that's where those connections start to get made. And those unexpected solutions come to light.
speaker-0: Yeah, I absolutely love that. you know, when I'm working with families, I often talk about this idea, especially with our kiddos is that we actually have to let our kids be bored. We have to let our teenagers be bored. It not like not everything needs to be at this like just in time entertainment because so often like that's where we have those wee little breakthroughs. Like we actually have to like stop long enough to like let some of those background problems, some of that background information be able to make it to you know, the forefront to be able to make it to our consciousness. And how important it is that, you know, sometimes they can just look out the window. You know what I think about like, you know, when we were kids driving, right? You know, watching, you know, sometimes I think the time that I actually experienced like Zen mastery of breath work was sitting on the bus watching like the condensation drip down the bus window. And like, you know, like, and I just remember just like processing emotion. I just remember sitting there and you know, just that, you know, that almost that steady state of white noise of just kind of sitting there on the bus. And it just felt different what it felt like kind of ending the day getting off the bus versus what I noticed, for example, when our kids were little and they like devices and things and go, they didn't really have just a lot of downtime. And I think that downtime or as you said, that kind of simple task time where you are and cleaning something, kind of just doing that repetitive motion, it allows us to have some of that space to be able to let that stuff come to light.
speaker-1: Yeah. And this is not how I necessarily talk about this, like in a workshop environment, but I think a lot of what it comes down to, at least in my mind is time for internal thought. ⁓ I think so much of our world is consumption based, not to be, I'm not trying to be on a soapbox about over consumption, but you know, there's always, there's music, there's a podcast, the TV's on the phone. Like there's always input happening. And I think that's such amazing development happens when you're having that internal. quiet reflection. have to be thinking to yourself, talking to yourself, know, sort of reflecting ⁓ in a healthy way. I think that's where a lot of, you know, connections get made, development, you're having those aha moments, but you have to have enough time to think. And if there's always something in your ear and, you know, in front of your eyeballs, you can't have those two conversations at once, you know? And so I think that quiet time is so valuable for that reason too.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, yes and yes. Now I'm mindful of our time and there is a kind of a wee bit of a pivot I would love to encourage us to take because especially when we talk about inputs, sensorial inputs and just the busyness and the noise, ⁓ something that you have shared openly is an experience that you had a few years ago with the diagnosis. And again, I appreciate that before we hit record, you said, yes, Robin, I'm happy to share that just because I think that, you know, to me, This is something that I think a lot of people would benefit to learning a wee bit more about Melanie. So if you want to take us through that, would be a gift.
speaker-1: Yeah, so in my early 30s, a couple years ago, I was diagnosed as autistic. And this was the most beautiful gift for me. It's something that I had suspected for probably a year or so before I got the sort of official confirmation. But that connection was made because I interacted with other adult women who were autistic and saw the similarities in the way that we experience the world, in their narratives, their experiences. And so... I feel really passionately about sharing my experiences too because I think it may give ⁓ that experience. And what we know is that women are not actually, like autistic women are not actually rare. We're just incredibly under diagnosed. ⁓ As it stands right now, there's an estimate that there's at least 8 million undiagnosed women in the US alone. ⁓ And so, I mean, it's a huge percentage, right? It's almost on par with what we see in men. And again, we're just under diagnosed because we're socialized differently and our experience of the world is necessarily different. ⁓ So, I mean, just some things that are so important. For me, it helps me make sense of the way my mind works, which ties into all this work that we're doing. I have always been a systems thinker. ⁓ You know, I wrote my first book before I was diagnosed and it's a 10 by 10 matrix teaching people how to think. like, you know, like it was, the sides were always there. ⁓ but yes, it's, ⁓ it's, it's been really amazing for me to understand how my brain works in a different way. ⁓ because it allows me to share my gifts more easily. And it also allows me to move through the world in a way that is so much more, ⁓ so much more forgiving, so much more giving so much more grace to myself and to others, honestly. ⁓ It's just, it's been such a beautiful gift, really.
speaker-0: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And again, I just appreciate your candor on this. Meli, what are some of the misconceptions? I hear what you're saying about underrepresented, underdiagnosed. Absolutely. What are some of the misunderstandings or the misapprehensions people have when we hear people talk about women with autism? Because there's a lot.
speaker-1: Uh-huh, so many. ⁓ So I mean the biggest one I think is, know, most of the examples that we have as a society from movies, books, things like that are of like adolescent boys, which means we actually don't have good representation for adult men either. People forget autistic kids grow into autistic adults, right, who have to navigate the world. ⁓ But one of the things that I think is a major misconception at the root of it is people often think when we refer to the autism spectrum, we're referring to how much autism someone has. right? That they're a little bit or a lot and that's absolutely not how it works. When we talk about the autism spectrum, we're referring to the wide spectrum of ways in which that can present, right? Which we mean is there are people who are non-verbal, that their ability to communicate verbally is almost non-existent, and there are people who are hyperlexic, who speak multiple languages, who read early, who write proficiently, who write prolifically, right? And they can both be autistic. And so that's true for a lot of different ⁓ traits and characteristics and ways of moving through the world, everything from some are sensory seeking, some are sensory avoidant. Some have very particular ⁓ food needs or clothing needs, and some ⁓ are really into whatever comes their way. There's just very different ways of moving through the world. But I think that core misconception that there's a little or a lot is probably at the root of so many of the misunderstandings of what it's like to be an autistic woman in the world.
speaker-0: Yeah, well said. I appreciate that. And can you share a wee bit about the kind of perspective around autism and emotion? That's one that I also see, like what you just described 100%. ⁓ I also feel like there's this really strong narrative about emotion. And again, I hear that is the representation, I think, unfortunately, that people have no feelings. again, so many beautiful people I work with on to some who are on again, on the spectrum, it's just like, ⁓ no, that is probably again, Like these emotions are so potent. And, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. A lot of times, and again, it's a bit heartbreaking to talk about, but I do think it's important. ⁓ It's important to understand that someone who is autistic is moving through the world with a sensory system that is different than someone who's neurotypical. It means that sounds that I think are too loud, smells that I think are too strong, tastes that I think are too strong, other people don't. And that's okay, right? We're allowed to have different things, but you have to consider what that means for someone who spends their whole life having all of their sensory experiences invalidated. It creates shutdown, it creates self-censorship, it creates what we also call masking, right? I'm not gonna share what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, what bothers me, because people tell me I'm wrong, so why bother, right? So a lot of time, the sort of facade of this person doesn't seem to be expressing themselves, they don't seem to be talking about their feelings, is not because that's not there, it's because they've sort of been conditioned not to do that because of negative reaction, right? And in many ways, There's early data showing that this is similar to a trauma response, right? If every time I say it's too loud in here, it's hurting my ears, someone says, no, it's not, you're wrong. Well, how many more times am I going to speak up? I'm going to start learning that I can't trust myself, I can't trust my body, and that people around don't want to hear what I'm thinking or feeling or experiencing. And so it is, yeah, a major misconception that often they're more sensitive, experience stronger emotions or stronger spikes in certain emotions. ⁓ but again have been conditioned to keep those things quiet because people don't like our big.
speaker-0: feelings. Yeah. ⁓ I appreciate you reframing that and sharing that. And as somebody with, ⁓ as a woman with ADHD, I know again, the same kind of feeling sometimes where there's so many misconceptions about it. And again, I, as somebody, you know, I still recall when, when I was officially diagnosed and what was like supported and experienced the opportunity to access treatment for the first time, it literally was like, I added this new lens or this aperture and how I saw the world that literally made the last three decades make sense. before it was just like this, like just always not quite figuring it out, like just always slightly being on the outside. And again, and there's so many facets of how ADHD manifests for people based on their environment, based on their physiology, their psychology, all of it. And again, I find it so interesting that there's as much variation within a group of people with ADHD as there are outside of that. Like the variance is super high in terms of what the symptomology looks like. And again, even just an example where, you know, the sensitivity to rejection and, know, I remember growing up and, you know, rejection didn't just feel uncomfortable. Like it literally felt as if I was like, yeah, like I was, you know, I was this despicable deplorable thing that like literally is going to get, you know, thrown to the wayside because my group decided that like I am the weakest link, like the sensitivity rejection and what's so interesting reflecting back early, like early years, like I'm talking like four years old in Kindercare. Like I remember this visceral emotion that I didn't even know how like my little body could hold it all. Like it just felt devastating as you said, like it was just awful. again, when you share that, right? I remember sharing that and people would be like, you it's okay that she has other friends, Robin, like, you know, get over it. Or it's like, you know, that's, that's an abnormal response to, you know, normal, you know, everyday things. And, I remember thinking like, do you know what it feels like if you missed a day of school, you literally think the next day, everyone hates you or somebody doesn't call you back. It's like, clearly they found out something about you that they now like, like the narrative and the framing of it was so complicated. And again, obviously that put me on so many different off routes to get myself into a whole lot of mischief as a young one. And again, when people understand, when I came across that work where it was like, ⁓ no, this is a sensitivity feeling and this is normal for somebody whose brain is hardwired this way, it just felt like relief. It just felt like relief. now when those feelings of like, clearly everybody hates me. Like clearly I have made so many mistakes, it's beyond human repair. When I get those big waves now, and I love the language that you use that you can meet yourself in a wee bit more gentle way and a bit more forgiving away with a wee bit more grace because it's like, it's almost as if finally the owner's manual is unlocked on just one part of my behavior, which then makes it so much easier to communicate that to my loved ones. So they understand.
speaker-1: Very similarly, I described it as I realized in my 30s that I had been playing with the settings on hard mode and they didn't have to be. The things that seemed easier for others is like, I've been doing this so much more difficult. It's been so much more difficult and it doesn't need to be. There are ways I can accommodate myself. And there's little things that I think people don't realize. They think late in life, it's like, well, you're not in school, you're not going to get extra time on tests. What's the point? ⁓ I give this example. The point for me was I thought I was an anxious traveler and I was not looking forward, I did not want to spend time traveling. Now I know that the decibel levels in an airplane are far too high for my sensory system. And if I wear headphones, I can continue to have the career as a public speaker that allowed me to fund my life and my family. And that was the difference of a diagnosis, right? It's not about having a label or getting extra time on tests. It's about understanding the way your mind works. and learning how to accommodate yourself and your loved ones to understand how your mind works too. ⁓ It makes such a huge difference when you have that grace for yourself and in your self talk is different. Instead of I'm a horrible friend or I'm anti-social, it's like, no, I'm overstimulated. And if I go outside and calm down for a few minutes, I'll be able to keep having fun, right? I'm not a bad friend for leaving this birthday party. I'm just overstimulated and that's okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, 100%. Yes. And again, I love how you just position that where this isn't about, you know, this isn't about the label. It's not about sympathy. Like it's not about any type of external other than being able for us and people in this experience to be able to like show up in a way that's actually really, really kind, right? Like it's kind. It's like, There's so many things where, know, and it's the same, I think it's very similar or the same where, you know, we look at certain things and be like, you know, we're never going to like make fun of somebody for wearing glasses, right? Like you need them to see, right? Like it's an accommodation and you know, we're, know, every shoe size technically is an accommodation, right? Like your foot grew to a certain size and we put things on it. It's an accommodation, right? And everything about us, we are accommodating in terms of this is how we get to show up in the world. And anytime we can find insights, perspective, or even a wee bit of acceptance that this is my default setting. It just unlocks this other realm where we're able to love harder. We're able to work harder. We're able to show up. And I really love your example about like you did life on hard mode. ⁓ It reminds me of this idea that I always, when people ask about learning styles and years ago in education, the rage was like, ⁓ are you a kinesthetic learner, auditory visual? And I'm like, my learning style is the hard way. Show me the hardest way to learn this lesson. And yeah, that's pretty much how it will get through. That's how it will finally get attached. ⁓ So again, it's learning about how we show up and it's not excuse making, it's context.
speaker-1: It really is. I think it's also realizing that we spend most of our lives thinking that we are wrong for our environments and understanding that actually the environment can be wrong for you. That it's that same mind switch that happens when folks often struggle with weight of like, I am not the wrong size for my clothes. My clothes are the wrong size for me. And that's a big difference in where we place responsibility and blame and heaviness and all of those things. And so that, that transformation has been amazing for me to be able to say like, this is not, I am not bad. am not wrong. I am just in the wrong environment, wearing the wrong clothing, you know, approaching it the wrong way. And that gives you a sense of agency that is so, so empowering that like you can change your environment to some degree to make it better suited to the way you do your best work. ⁓ and that, is so freeing, right? Rather than feeling like you're a failure and you're stuck and there's nothing you could do about it. It's just such a more. a more freeing approach.
speaker-0: Yeah, I absolutely love that. you know, I just, my heart is like smiling for you. ⁓ it's for me, for, people who are coming into this knowing, ⁓ wherever they happen to come in. Right. So yeah, obviously some get some of that support early on for some of us. It's a wee bit later, but just the fact that we're coming to this place of knowing, and I'm not sure if this is your experience, but I know for me, some of those traits or tendencies that I used to be really ashamed of and felt a lot of uncomfortableness around and a of fear around, they're actually the parts of me that I've fallen in love with now. And I know it sounds like people are like, ⁓ that sounds super self-centered. It's like, literally in my life, I am trying to become self-centered where I'm actually able to be focused and centered and then make wise decisions from that and not be so influenced and not be so pulled. I am really trying hard to kind of figure out who I am and who I am not. And so I think it's actually a good thing to be in that place of awareness. And I'm really appreciating this journey of finding parts that used to be heavy, uncomfortable, or masked to bring them over and realize like, actually, this is part of myself that I really like, because I know it's me. Like, there's no question of like, is this Robin? 100%. Like that is Robin. And that reconnecting with those parts is actually very special.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, as much as it's been about the addition and like the celebration of those parts, it's also been so joyous to subtract the things that no longer serve me. You know, whether that's like, I don't actually enjoy this hobby. I just thought I was supposed to. I would really love to never do it again. And now there's so much room in my life for other things that I do really enjoy, you know? Or I had, you know, if you look at early videos of my speaking, I was wearing suits and heels and it was like, I thought I was supposed to, it was deeply uncomfortable. I didn't feel like myself. I show up now in sneakers and I'm much more myself. I perform much better because I'm so much more self-fulfilled, like confident, because I'm more myself, right? And so yeah, it's like taking away the things that don't, taking away the parts of the mask that no longer serve you is just as freeing as falling in love with those parts you were sort of hiding before.
speaker-0: Yeah, beautiful. And as a fellow sneaker person who's always present in footwear, ⁓ I hear you and yes, and it's, and again, it's not on brand. It's like in alignment, right? To me, it's like, is not just popular. It's like, this is literally how I know I'm being myself. And yeah, there's times where you kind of ebb and flow when you, know, cause again, we want to grow, we want to adapt, but then there are also those through lines that without a doubt, it's like, this is Robin. in her full Robiness. And I think the thing for you, that this is Melanie in her full Melaniness, is a beautiful thing. I think-
speaker-1: I think I'm the the Melaniest I've ever been, you know
speaker-0: I'm feeling the Robinist I've ever been. And I got to tell you, it's pretty good. And I do have moments though where I pause and I'm like, well, they did tell me like, gosh, when you hit 40, Robin, when you hit, so part of me was just like, is it these milestones or is it literally us? And I think Michelle Obama said it so beautifully with this idea of us in our becoming, right? We're becoming and those noticings of who we get to be and what we get to be all about.
speaker-1: So, and what a privilege to meet ourselves that way.
speaker-0: ⁓ it's pretty, I highly recommend it. I don't make recommendations very often, but that one I would highly recommend. So Melanie, thank you so much for the gift of your time, your story. I really think people are going to leave hopefully quite inspired to be thinking about problem solving in this other way. And this isn't necessarily like something that we're not familiar with, but what you've done is just put a spotlight on something that I think can bring so much. relief, ease, and just joy into the process of figuring out problems and also getting to know ourselves in a different way. So Melanie, thank you so very much for joining us today.
speaker-1: Thank you for letting me share my story.
speaker-0: Thank you for spending time with me on this episode of Life by Design. I appreciate if you have a moment to pay this forward, share it with someone who you think might benefit from the ideas shared in this episode. If you're feeling so inspired, please also rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Again, thank you for listening. Thank you for your time. Take good care and I'll see you next time.
speaker-1: Me too, so glad to be here.
speaker-0: Awesome. Okay. So for friends, you and I connected through our community of practice through Epic and I was just so, your work is just refreshing. And if you could tell the listeners, just a wee bit of a snapshot of the good work you're up to these days, I would love to introduce you to this community.
speaker-1: Yeah, so my life's mission, I suppose you could say, is teaching people to access their creativity more easily. And that started out in sort of a journalism and marketing context where I was helping marketers, advertisers, and sales professionals understand how to think more like journalists, how to come up with story ideas, how to think more narratively. And over the years, it's really expanded to all kinds of professionals who I'm really helping with creative operations. How do you set up a system? that suits the way your brain works, that allows you to access creativity and be creative on a regular basis, when we know that most of the business world that we are forced to operate in kind of runs counter to the way creativity runs. And so it's a dance that we're teaching folks on how to balance those creative needs with the sort of business realities to make sure they're able to do that creative work that fuels them so much.
speaker-0: Yeah, Melanie, I absolutely love this because I love when people like connect the dots, right? Like that's one of the things I think as knowledge translators, as you know, folks are able to connect the dots. And one of the things when I first heard your work, was how here we are in a lot of these business settings, a lot of these corporate things, but even navigating a household, right? That's a little operation as well. Yeah, pretty big operation. And what I appreciated so much is that connection and that, again, connecting the dots between that role of creativity to be able to find solutions, to use that critical thinking. And essentially, we're activating different parts of our brain. And so often, I think we get... almost trapped in that beta brainwave where that hustle do perform. And like the creative part would be like a nice to have. It's like this on the side and what you're doing and what I see is you're braiding that very important creative piece to say this isn't like an afterthought. This can actually improve all of these operations.
speaker-1: Yeah, and a lot of times what I find when I'm working, sometimes it's like a solopreneur who's just feeling stuck, right? Like I'm not able to write as much as I used to, or it's a huge operation, know, a Fortune 100 company or something. But yeah, a lot of times I find when we solve for those creative blocks, like those systems that are preventing the creative thinking, a lot of the other problems end up solving themselves as a result. Because what we find is, you know, the... the mental state that you're in when you feel like you have a story to tell or an idea to put forth and it's constantly getting shut down, you're being silenced, you're being pushed aside, like that has far reaching effects from a mental health, from a burnout standpoint, from a feeling valued at your job, from a relationship standpoint. So when we can solve for that, it does really tend to have ripple effects across the organization or across the home or the group. And we see those benefits kind of ripple outward, which is really nice.
speaker-0: beautiful. And so what would you say are some of the like on routes for us to start thinking about how we can incorporate more creative opportunities within these relatively structured days, right? Whether that be like time structure or just the nature of how we have these systems. Where do people, you know, because often I think when we hear creativity, like, you know, I kind of jump to like artists. talk to people who like have these beautiful modes of expression. you know, as somebody who kind of leans to wear more like, you know, logical, just heart, I always feel like that creative creativity piece is like almost like that other realm that I don't really know a lot about. So I'm so curious, where do we like start thinking about how to bring more creativity into our days?
speaker-1: First, I just have to say it's like my favorite and least favorite thing when people say like, ⁓ creativity is like the other people do that. I'm not the creative type. It's my favorite because I know we can fix it, but it's my least favorite because I know that the system has, you know, whatever system you're operating in has conditioned you to feel that way. And that breaks my heart, right? The first thing I think is the consciousness of it is like having these kinds of conversations and recognizing that if we want time, to have critical thinking, to problem solve, to look, think outside the box, whatever ⁓ phrasing speaks to you, it needs to be something that's intentional. And I think so that first step is really awareness and just knowing, okay, let's take a look at this. Like how is the way that I work conducive or not conducive to thinking differently, to having time to think? That's where I think the first, that's really the first step is that awareness. Cause that's where we can find opportunities to improve. And oftentimes the opportunity really is to have that dedicated time, however many minutes it is. doesn't, I'm not saying you have to stop all progress for an entire day, ⁓ but finding those moments to say like, this is a time for me to not worry about the limitations and just think big. That can really be a game changer when you find those moments wherever they may be in your day.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's so beautiful. And what I'm thinking about and what you're, you know, threads I'm pulling out. And again, this is reflecting on your work that I had been, I heard in December and like now a little while later is just this idea about this spaciousness. When I hear you say creative and I also hold total space, you're absolutely right in terms of, you know, it's what you're saying about like, ⁓ I'm people who perceive themselves as not a created or not something, you the same as, you know, I remember when I was teaching, was, you know, you hear these little ones like little, little ones saying things like, Oh, I'm not a math person. And it's like, Oh no, everyone is a math person. Everyone has this capacity. And again, you're right. It's the messaging that we pick up along the way. One of the things that I see here is that that notion of really that invitation to this spaciousness to allow just this opportunity to hold space in that realm and be able to see what's possible. And again, that piece around self-awareness and intention, it goes with everything. If we're always in autopilot, we're missing these opportunities. ⁓
speaker-1: My favorite exercise is when you have someone, because I'm sure there's someone listening who is like, I hear what you're saying, but still I'm not like, I'm not, you know me personally, you know? My favorite prompt is think of all the ways you've imagined things could go wrong. That is creative thinking. You are imagining, you are thinking of possibilities. They are very rarely grounded in reality, right? Like you, there's all kinds of crazy thinking happening there. We're just putting it to the wrong prompt.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: Right. So it is within you a hundred percent, but oftentimes we're conditioned to use those, you know, use those talents for, for catastrophizing instead of imagining, you know? So yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think it's like an incredible privilege and an opportunity to see that possibility and think, my God, you're right. I'm such a creative catastrophizer. Now I can put it to use in a different context, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I really like that reframe because we talk about that in my work around this idea that you're catastrophizing or you're imagining the worst or right now I hear a lot of people saying like, you know, not to get your hopes up, right? Like again, we're just kind of trying to buffer and managing control. What's so fascinating to me is it's like, it's a working hypothesis. You're taking a few variables, you're making a hypothesis. So your prediction is it's going to go wrong. Whereas you can also with intention, establish a working hypothesis where this could go right. And again, the importance of, for example, if you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to, you know, thinking about starting something new, having examples like representation is so key. And instead of thinking of all those folks that are like, oh, that's not a good idea. What are you doing? that, you know, nobody there's, you know, that ship is gone or that ship is sailed or whatnot. Being like, look at the people who are kind of where you want to be. And that is literally a blueprint. is a hundred percent. And that could be a new working hypothesis that I want to build something in that direction. again, if we're going to give hold space for what could go wrong, what a beautiful invitation to hold space for what could go right.
speaker-1: You have to allow for like an almost irrational imagining of success, right? Like to the same degree that you, maybe you still catastrophize in some instances, but you have to allow for that same level of irrationality on the other end of it. You know, as we're recording this, it's the Olympics are happening. And I think that's another great instance of like, yeah, sure. Most athletes don't go to the Olympics, but the ones who do are the ones who believe, right? The ones who have imagined that success. They've, they've, they've put in that effort to imagine what that could be like and to hold onto that. And so I think whatever your problem is solving, maybe it's not, you know, whether you can do a 10 80, ⁓ you know, that's not your challenge. Maybe it's like, how am I going to, I don't know, make ends meet this month, or maybe it's how am I going to deal with the challenge that I'm having, you know, with my partner or with my child? Like you can apply that same level of like what. What could go right? How could we imagine that this could possibly evolve in a positive direction? And it doesn't have to be realistic. It doesn't have to be ⁓ logical. It doesn't have to be feasible because those big ideas are the ones that give you the inspiration for the middle ideas that may actually be feasible and realistic and affordable, whatever your constraints are.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what you're saying? I love that example of the Olympics because I remember talking to an Olympian a few years back and we actually, you know, we're talking about like stress and pressure and you know, this kind of notion of this obsession of what they're doing. And this one Olympian said to me, I am just so thankful I found my sport because if I hadn't found my sport, I guarantee you I would have been a drug addict. And I was like, ⁓ tell me more. Right? Like that was like, just like, tell me more. He said the same way, he said, I assume somebody like Jones's and craves their drug. He said, that is what my sport became to me. He's like, I obsess over it. There is never a day that I don't wake up and know that I have to find it somehow. I have to improve it. I have to master it. And he said that like, had I not been exposed to sport early on, And know there, you know, some people subscribe this notion of an addictive personality, which again, there's lots of research that says it doesn't quite work like that. There's an necessarily, you know, a particular temperament or personality that makes you more susceptible. But this idea that had he not found a way to channel that drive, that hunger, that need, it could have gone off the rails really quickly. Right? what that reminds me of is the same as what you're saying is that like, Cast it out forward, right? That forward casting. Imagine what's possible. again, when I see, especially with those high performers, they just do it longer. They just stay in it longer than the average person, right? And I really think, yes, there's skill, talents and gifts. I'm not discounting that. They just stick with it longer than most people do.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think, you know, as you're talking about it now, I don't think I would have gone the drug route probably, just given the way that things worked for me. ⁓ But I will say I'm a person who has struggled with anxiety and depression at various points in my life. And what is that, if not a rational imagining of the worst case scenario, right? And so think whether I maybe realized it or not, this is a reframing of that same skill that was working to my detriment and now I'm working on using it to my advantage and teaching others to do the same.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I appreciate that, Sharon. You're absolutely right. And that's why I think so often when we think about anxiety and that notion of like we're in the future with that feeling of catastrophe, we're also in that future with that fear of not being able to handle it. We're in that fear of all of a sudden we'll get overwhelmed by it. So we're trapped in that forward thinking. And then when we think about depressive episodes, it's like we're so drawn back to the past. And again, it's that deep rumination and just energetically, it's such a heavy emotion to process, which actually makes catastrophizing more accessible to us. Because if we're feeling this density of these emotions, it's easier as our meaning maker brains try to do. be like, I have to find an anesthesia and have to find a trigger. have to find a reason to feel this bad or this, you know, this anxious or this low. And so it, the brain naturally tries to come up with justifications. It wants to give us context where again, as we say, talk about, we're, know, natural born meaning makers. So I get, appreciate how, what you're articulating and putting language to an experience for people is ⁓ my goodness, like this is a part of a process that we're able to engineer things ever so slightly that actually could have some big benefits.
speaker-1: Yeah, well, one of the things that I really love about this work too is ⁓ the way that people find solutions for such challenging problems, I find really inspiring. know, when we look at whether it is athletes or, you know, inventors, scientists, whoever it is that you're idolizing that's a high achiever of some kind, it is often that they are solving complex problems in an unexpected way, right? Regardless of how that comes to fruition. And so that is a skill that if practice, stiff mastered can really meaningfully transform your life, not just in a day to day, like I'm able to reframe maybe this otherwise negative scenario, but I'm able to see a career path that I never would have considered because now I see overlap in skill sets or I'm able to see a future for myself that I couldn't have imagined because it didn't seem realistic. You know, I'm going back to school or I'm, you know, pursuing a different type of relationship in my life or whatever the case may be. it's really rewarding to kind of watch that problem solving skill. We're framing it as creativity, but it is really, a problem solving skill that can be so beneficial in so many different contexts.
speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. Which also leads me to get at this curiosity around why does it feel like sometimes all of these, and I'm curious what your take is on this. Some of these like neat ideas or these like big ideas or these like what we call aha moments or eureka moments or breakthroughs seem to happen in the most unexpected places. They never happen at boardroom tables. They never really happen at like strategic retreats. so often when I do have breakthroughs with folks that I'm working with, it's usually in the nature of like a report back, right? Where they'll be like, you know, Robin, we're trying to handle this wicked problem. It's super complex, all these moving parts. And then I hear them say like, ⁓ my gosh, I was out walking my dog on Saturday morning and then all of sudden, boom, this thing just came to me ⁓ or the shower, right? The other one people talk about is like in the shower. So what's that all about, Melanie?
speaker-1: look, we can go super technical on how the brain works. My initials are MD, but I am not the doctor here, so I'm not going to go that route. ⁓ But what I can tell you is it's about the constraints of those environments in some way, right? When we are in a boardroom at an offsite at a super formal begin your brainstorm now, our goal is actually not to come up with a big disruptive idea to do something different. Our goal is to be efficient. Our goal is to communicate effectively. Our goal is to get to the end of that. part of the agenda and move on to team building next, right? The conditions are not set up for free thinking, right? And that's really what a lot of the problem solving, the creative thinking is, is that associative thinking that's free. And so when you are in the shower, when you are walking the dog, you are, I don't know, cleaning the tub, like whatever you're doing, your mind is set to a different task. And so you can allow, I call it like your background tabs have finally loaded, you know, when you have too many tabs open. When you're focused on a different task, those background tabs can keep loading. And so you make those connections that you wouldn't have otherwise if you were staring at it. It's like, well, you know, a watched pot never boils. mean, it's the same sort of logic in my mind is when your brain is free to think outside those confines, that's where those connections start to get made. And those unexpected solutions come to light.
speaker-0: Yeah, I absolutely love that. you know, when I'm working with families, I often talk about this idea, especially with our kiddos is that we actually have to let our kids be bored. We have to let our teenagers be bored. It not like not everything needs to be at this like just in time entertainment because so often like that's where we have those wee little breakthroughs. Like we actually have to like stop long enough to like let some of those background problems, some of that background information be able to make it to you know, the forefront to be able to make it to our consciousness. And how important it is that, you know, sometimes they can just look out the window. You know what I think about like, you know, when we were kids driving, right? You know, watching, you know, sometimes I think the time that I actually experienced like Zen mastery of breath work was sitting on the bus watching like the condensation drip down the bus window. And like, you know, like, and I just remember just like processing emotion. I just remember sitting there and you know, just that, you know, that almost that steady state of white noise of just kind of sitting there on the bus. And it just felt different what it felt like kind of ending the day getting off the bus versus what I noticed, for example, when our kids were little and they like devices and things and go, they didn't really have just a lot of downtime. And I think that downtime or as you said, that kind of simple task time where you are and cleaning something, kind of just doing that repetitive motion, it allows us to have some of that space to be able to let that stuff come to light.
speaker-1: Yeah. And this is not how I necessarily talk about this, like in a workshop environment, but I think a lot of what it comes down to, at least in my mind is time for internal thought. ⁓ I think so much of our world is consumption based, not to be, I'm not trying to be on a soapbox about over consumption, but you know, there's always, there's music, there's a podcast, the TV's on the phone. Like there's always input happening. And I think that's such amazing development happens when you're having that internal. quiet reflection. have to be thinking to yourself, talking to yourself, know, sort of reflecting ⁓ in a healthy way. I think that's where a lot of, you know, connections get made, development, you're having those aha moments, but you have to have enough time to think. And if there's always something in your ear and, you know, in front of your eyeballs, you can't have those two conversations at once, you know? And so I think that quiet time is so valuable for that reason too.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, yes and yes. Now I'm mindful of our time and there is a kind of a wee bit of a pivot I would love to encourage us to take because especially when we talk about inputs, sensorial inputs and just the busyness and the noise, ⁓ something that you have shared openly is an experience that you had a few years ago with the diagnosis. And again, I appreciate that before we hit record, you said, yes, Robin, I'm happy to share that just because I think that, you know, to me, This is something that I think a lot of people would benefit to learning a wee bit more about Melanie. So if you want to take us through that, would be a gift.
speaker-1: Yeah, so in my early 30s, a couple years ago, I was diagnosed as autistic. And this was the most beautiful gift for me. It's something that I had suspected for probably a year or so before I got the sort of official confirmation. But that connection was made because I interacted with other adult women who were autistic and saw the similarities in the way that we experience the world, in their narratives, their experiences. And so... I feel really passionately about sharing my experiences too because I think it may give ⁓ that experience. And what we know is that women are not actually, like autistic women are not actually rare. We're just incredibly under diagnosed. ⁓ As it stands right now, there's an estimate that there's at least 8 million undiagnosed women in the US alone. ⁓ And so, I mean, it's a huge percentage, right? It's almost on par with what we see in men. And again, we're just under diagnosed because we're socialized differently and our experience of the world is necessarily different. ⁓ So, I mean, just some things that are so important. For me, it helps me make sense of the way my mind works, which ties into all this work that we're doing. I have always been a systems thinker. ⁓ You know, I wrote my first book before I was diagnosed and it's a 10 by 10 matrix teaching people how to think. like, you know, like it was, the sides were always there. ⁓ but yes, it's, ⁓ it's, it's been really amazing for me to understand how my brain works in a different way. ⁓ because it allows me to share my gifts more easily. And it also allows me to move through the world in a way that is so much more, ⁓ so much more forgiving, so much more giving so much more grace to myself and to others, honestly. ⁓ It's just, it's been such a beautiful gift, really.
speaker-0: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And again, I just appreciate your candor on this. Meli, what are some of the misconceptions? I hear what you're saying about underrepresented, underdiagnosed. Absolutely. What are some of the misunderstandings or the misapprehensions people have when we hear people talk about women with autism? Because there's a lot.
speaker-1: Uh-huh, so many. ⁓ So I mean the biggest one I think is, know, most of the examples that we have as a society from movies, books, things like that are of like adolescent boys, which means we actually don't have good representation for adult men either. People forget autistic kids grow into autistic adults, right, who have to navigate the world. ⁓ But one of the things that I think is a major misconception at the root of it is people often think when we refer to the autism spectrum, we're referring to how much autism someone has. right? That they're a little bit or a lot and that's absolutely not how it works. When we talk about the autism spectrum, we're referring to the wide spectrum of ways in which that can present, right? Which we mean is there are people who are non-verbal, that their ability to communicate verbally is almost non-existent, and there are people who are hyperlexic, who speak multiple languages, who read early, who write proficiently, who write prolifically, right? And they can both be autistic. And so that's true for a lot of different ⁓ traits and characteristics and ways of moving through the world, everything from some are sensory seeking, some are sensory avoidant. Some have very particular ⁓ food needs or clothing needs, and some ⁓ are really into whatever comes their way. There's just very different ways of moving through the world. But I think that core misconception that there's a little or a lot is probably at the root of so many of the misunderstandings of what it's like to be an autistic woman in the world.
speaker-0: Yeah, well said. I appreciate that. And can you share a wee bit about the kind of perspective around autism and emotion? That's one that I also see, like what you just described 100%. ⁓ I also feel like there's this really strong narrative about emotion. And again, I hear that is the representation, I think, unfortunately, that people have no feelings. again, so many beautiful people I work with on to some who are on again, on the spectrum, it's just like, ⁓ no, that is probably again, Like these emotions are so potent. And, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. A lot of times, and again, it's a bit heartbreaking to talk about, but I do think it's important. ⁓ It's important to understand that someone who is autistic is moving through the world with a sensory system that is different than someone who's neurotypical. It means that sounds that I think are too loud, smells that I think are too strong, tastes that I think are too strong, other people don't. And that's okay, right? We're allowed to have different things, but you have to consider what that means for someone who spends their whole life having all of their sensory experiences invalidated. It creates shutdown, it creates self-censorship, it creates what we also call masking, right? I'm not gonna share what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, what bothers me, because people tell me I'm wrong, so why bother, right? So a lot of time, the sort of facade of this person doesn't seem to be expressing themselves, they don't seem to be talking about their feelings, is not because that's not there, it's because they've sort of been conditioned not to do that because of negative reaction, right? And in many ways, There's early data showing that this is similar to a trauma response, right? If every time I say it's too loud in here, it's hurting my ears, someone says, no, it's not, you're wrong. Well, how many more times am I going to speak up? I'm going to start learning that I can't trust myself, I can't trust my body, and that people around don't want to hear what I'm thinking or feeling or experiencing. And so it is, yeah, a major misconception that often they're more sensitive, experience stronger emotions or stronger spikes in certain emotions. ⁓ but again have been conditioned to keep those things quiet because people don't like our big.
speaker-0: feelings. Yeah. ⁓ I appreciate you reframing that and sharing that. And as somebody with, ⁓ as a woman with ADHD, I know again, the same kind of feeling sometimes where there's so many misconceptions about it. And again, I, as somebody, you know, I still recall when, when I was officially diagnosed and what was like supported and experienced the opportunity to access treatment for the first time, it literally was like, I added this new lens or this aperture and how I saw the world that literally made the last three decades make sense. before it was just like this, like just always not quite figuring it out, like just always slightly being on the outside. And again, and there's so many facets of how ADHD manifests for people based on their environment, based on their physiology, their psychology, all of it. And again, I find it so interesting that there's as much variation within a group of people with ADHD as there are outside of that. Like the variance is super high in terms of what the symptomology looks like. And again, even just an example where, you know, the sensitivity to rejection and, know, I remember growing up and, you know, rejection didn't just feel uncomfortable. Like it literally felt as if I was like, yeah, like I was, you know, I was this despicable deplorable thing that like literally is going to get, you know, thrown to the wayside because my group decided that like I am the weakest link, like the sensitivity rejection and what's so interesting reflecting back early, like early years, like I'm talking like four years old in Kindercare. Like I remember this visceral emotion that I didn't even know how like my little body could hold it all. Like it just felt devastating as you said, like it was just awful. again, when you share that, right? I remember sharing that and people would be like, you it's okay that she has other friends, Robin, like, you know, get over it. Or it's like, you know, that's, that's an abnormal response to, you know, normal, you know, everyday things. And, I remember thinking like, do you know what it feels like if you missed a day of school, you literally think the next day, everyone hates you or somebody doesn't call you back. It's like, clearly they found out something about you that they now like, like the narrative and the framing of it was so complicated. And again, obviously that put me on so many different off routes to get myself into a whole lot of mischief as a young one. And again, when people understand, when I came across that work where it was like, ⁓ no, this is a sensitivity feeling and this is normal for somebody whose brain is hardwired this way, it just felt like relief. It just felt like relief. now when those feelings of like, clearly everybody hates me. Like clearly I have made so many mistakes, it's beyond human repair. When I get those big waves now, and I love the language that you use that you can meet yourself in a wee bit more gentle way and a bit more forgiving away with a wee bit more grace because it's like, it's almost as if finally the owner's manual is unlocked on just one part of my behavior, which then makes it so much easier to communicate that to my loved ones. So they understand.
speaker-1: Very similarly, I described it as I realized in my 30s that I had been playing with the settings on hard mode and they didn't have to be. The things that seemed easier for others is like, I've been doing this so much more difficult. It's been so much more difficult and it doesn't need to be. There are ways I can accommodate myself. And there's little things that I think people don't realize. They think late in life, it's like, well, you're not in school, you're not going to get extra time on tests. What's the point? ⁓ I give this example. The point for me was I thought I was an anxious traveler and I was not looking forward, I did not want to spend time traveling. Now I know that the decibel levels in an airplane are far too high for my sensory system. And if I wear headphones, I can continue to have the career as a public speaker that allowed me to fund my life and my family. And that was the difference of a diagnosis, right? It's not about having a label or getting extra time on tests. It's about understanding the way your mind works. and learning how to accommodate yourself and your loved ones to understand how your mind works too. ⁓ It makes such a huge difference when you have that grace for yourself and in your self talk is different. Instead of I'm a horrible friend or I'm anti-social, it's like, no, I'm overstimulated. And if I go outside and calm down for a few minutes, I'll be able to keep having fun, right? I'm not a bad friend for leaving this birthday party. I'm just overstimulated and that's okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, 100%. Yes. And again, I love how you just position that where this isn't about, you know, this isn't about the label. It's not about sympathy. Like it's not about any type of external other than being able for us and people in this experience to be able to like show up in a way that's actually really, really kind, right? Like it's kind. It's like, There's so many things where, know, and it's the same, I think it's very similar or the same where, you know, we look at certain things and be like, you know, we're never going to like make fun of somebody for wearing glasses, right? Like you need them to see, right? Like it's an accommodation and you know, we're, know, every shoe size technically is an accommodation, right? Like your foot grew to a certain size and we put things on it. It's an accommodation, right? And everything about us, we are accommodating in terms of this is how we get to show up in the world. And anytime we can find insights, perspective, or even a wee bit of acceptance that this is my default setting. It just unlocks this other realm where we're able to love harder. We're able to work harder. We're able to show up. And I really love your example about like you did life on hard mode. ⁓ It reminds me of this idea that I always, when people ask about learning styles and years ago in education, the rage was like, ⁓ are you a kinesthetic learner, auditory visual? And I'm like, my learning style is the hard way. Show me the hardest way to learn this lesson. And yeah, that's pretty much how it will get through. That's how it will finally get attached. ⁓ So again, it's learning about how we show up and it's not excuse making, it's context.
speaker-1: It really is. I think it's also realizing that we spend most of our lives thinking that we are wrong for our environments and understanding that actually the environment can be wrong for you. That it's that same mind switch that happens when folks often struggle with weight of like, I am not the wrong size for my clothes. My clothes are the wrong size for me. And that's a big difference in where we place responsibility and blame and heaviness and all of those things. And so that, that transformation has been amazing for me to be able to say like, this is not, I am not bad. am not wrong. I am just in the wrong environment, wearing the wrong clothing, you know, approaching it the wrong way. And that gives you a sense of agency that is so, so empowering that like you can change your environment to some degree to make it better suited to the way you do your best work. ⁓ and that, is so freeing, right? Rather than feeling like you're a failure and you're stuck and there's nothing you could do about it. It's just such a more. a more freeing approach.
speaker-0: Yeah, I absolutely love that. you know, I just, my heart is like smiling for you. ⁓ it's for me, for, people who are coming into this knowing, ⁓ wherever they happen to come in. Right. So yeah, obviously some get some of that support early on for some of us. It's a wee bit later, but just the fact that we're coming to this place of knowing, and I'm not sure if this is your experience, but I know for me, some of those traits or tendencies that I used to be really ashamed of and felt a lot of uncomfortableness around and a of fear around, they're actually the parts of me that I've fallen in love with now. And I know it sounds like people are like, ⁓ that sounds super self-centered. It's like, literally in my life, I am trying to become self-centered where I'm actually able to be focused and centered and then make wise decisions from that and not be so influenced and not be so pulled. I am really trying hard to kind of figure out who I am and who I am not. And so I think it's actually a good thing to be in that place of awareness. And I'm really appreciating this journey of finding parts that used to be heavy, uncomfortable, or masked to bring them over and realize like, actually, this is part of myself that I really like, because I know it's me. Like, there's no question of like, is this Robin? 100%. Like that is Robin. And that reconnecting with those parts is actually very special.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, as much as it's been about the addition and like the celebration of those parts, it's also been so joyous to subtract the things that no longer serve me. You know, whether that's like, I don't actually enjoy this hobby. I just thought I was supposed to. I would really love to never do it again. And now there's so much room in my life for other things that I do really enjoy, you know? Or I had, you know, if you look at early videos of my speaking, I was wearing suits and heels and it was like, I thought I was supposed to, it was deeply uncomfortable. I didn't feel like myself. I show up now in sneakers and I'm much more myself. I perform much better because I'm so much more self-fulfilled, like confident, because I'm more myself, right? And so yeah, it's like taking away the things that don't, taking away the parts of the mask that no longer serve you is just as freeing as falling in love with those parts you were sort of hiding before.
speaker-0: Yeah, beautiful. And as a fellow sneaker person who's always present in footwear, ⁓ I hear you and yes, and it's, and again, it's not on brand. It's like in alignment, right? To me, it's like, is not just popular. It's like, this is literally how I know I'm being myself. And yeah, there's times where you kind of ebb and flow when you, know, cause again, we want to grow, we want to adapt, but then there are also those through lines that without a doubt, it's like, this is Robin. in her full Robiness. And I think the thing for you, that this is Melanie in her full Melaniness, is a beautiful thing. I think-
speaker-1: I think I'm the the Melaniest I've ever been, you know
speaker-0: I'm feeling the Robinist I've ever been. And I got to tell you, it's pretty good. And I do have moments though where I pause and I'm like, well, they did tell me like, gosh, when you hit 40, Robin, when you hit, so part of me was just like, is it these milestones or is it literally us? And I think Michelle Obama said it so beautifully with this idea of us in our becoming, right? We're becoming and those noticings of who we get to be and what we get to be all about.
speaker-1: So, and what a privilege to meet ourselves that way.
speaker-0: ⁓ it's pretty, I highly recommend it. I don't make recommendations very often, but that one I would highly recommend. So Melanie, thank you so much for the gift of your time, your story. I really think people are going to leave hopefully quite inspired to be thinking about problem solving in this other way. And this isn't necessarily like something that we're not familiar with, but what you've done is just put a spotlight on something that I think can bring so much. relief, ease, and just joy into the process of figuring out problems and also getting to know ourselves in a different way. So Melanie, thank you so very much for joining us today.
speaker-1: Thank you for letting me share my story.
speaker-0: Thank you for spending time with me on this episode of Life by Design. I appreciate if you have a moment to pay this forward, share it with someone who you think might benefit from the ideas shared in this episode. If you're feeling so inspired, please also rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Again, thank you for listening. Thank you for your time. Take good care and I'll see you next time.
