Bitcoin Security Consortium, Buzz Launches, Wavelength Brings Bitcoin to Any App

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All right, we are live. Welcome to another edition of PBJ. How are you guys doing?
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Doing great.
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Hello, guys. Hello, hello.
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It's going to be, I think, I predict this is our best episode ever.
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I mean, I'm going to call my shot like Josh Kerr did.
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Oh, there it is. There's nothing that happened this week at all.
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Was it Lennon who said there are decades where, was it nothing happens in weeks where, or days where decades happen?
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Days where decades, something like that.
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I mean, generally the gist, this week a lot happened.
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It feels like, you know, I actually, without naming any names,
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I ran into some random Bitcoin people on the street last week, not this week.
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And at first I was like, I kind of recognize, oh yeah, yeah, I recognize these people.
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And they were all just saying like, you know, it's so weird.
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It feels like Bitcoin is so quiet.
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Like, do you know anything going on?
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I was like, well, there's a couple of things, this and that.
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Like, yeah, but like all the energy died, the momentum said, what's going on?
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and then this week came around
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and all the momentum seems to be that.
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So also every...
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Bitcoin momentum?
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Well, not price,
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but in terms of what actually matters.
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Product releases, protocol releases.
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Okay, well, I guess I was talking more of the AI stuff.
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I need a little update myself on the Bitcoin stuff.
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Well, this show covers both.
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Well, yeah.
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The one thing that's consistent
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is a new block is produced every 10 minutes.
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So that's the most important thing.
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There it is.
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And also, I mean, I just got a show today.
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it's been a minute since I've flexed my nostril.
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This could become PNJ, the Presidio Nostra Jam,
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because everyone also has said,
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nostril is dead, there's nothing going on.
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Dang, there's a lot going on under the surface.
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And this week, a lot of that comes to the forefront.
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So also, I want to give a shout out
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while we're on this subject.
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I didn't get the full skinny
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because I was just walking in,
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but apparently our compatriot Alex
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got Zap.Stream live.
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so I don't know if we're showing that
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I don't know if we're actually streaming
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I don't know, Ashu, if you can confirm or deny
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yeah, he confirms
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so we are for the first time ever
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streaming on ZapDop's stream as well
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which is freaking huge
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I'm going to hop on Primal and get that reposted
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so you know
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if you want to show us some love
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you should also
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to your thousands of followers
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share our live stream
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I took the time
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did we get
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did we get tagged?
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I can't tell
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if he was being serious or if that was an insight.
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I follow our podcast
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account so it's always in notifications
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when it tweets.
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That's what we should do.
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By the way, one quick tangent.
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Whisper Flow, we've talked
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about it on the show before. DK I think converted
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long ago. Yeah, he's super into it.
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I installed it
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three or four months ago and I've used it
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sparingly but we talked about in this show like it could change transform office space because
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you're talking to your computer and talking about steve yeah but i um i finally converted
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to i mean it is so valuable so good i don't care about the iphone glitchiness i mean like
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you have to like pop between the app and back to the app you want to speak to
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it's like ridiculous ux um what are you using it for like what has changed your life well i mean
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DK has pointed out in the past, it's great for speaking to LLMs.
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Because the little bit of typos maybe that it has are no big deal.
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The AI can figure it out.
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So I'm using it for that, but I'm also using it for all text messaging.
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Interesting.
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So any post you see from me on Signal, Discord, Twitter, wherever, I've spoken it.
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And so the big, you know, let's say you're just using iMessage
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and you just speak into there.
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The big difference is this catches more typos?
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it's just way faster way faster way faster right gk and it just understands better like i find that
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the whatever i don't know if it's branded siri but the the the audio transcription native to ios
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is kind of not that good like it's just okay compared to other voices this is nightly better
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because you can like stammer you can like pause you can even like correct yourself and it figures
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all that out. It also
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uses context to like, I mean
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it uses AI to improve your
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sentences as well. I mean,
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it does beg the question
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it's 2026 midway through the year. How is
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Siri still so hard?
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Yeah, and I haven't tried. Have you guys
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tried iOS 27?
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No. I just downloaded
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Tahoe. Is that
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what it's called? Is Tahoe the name of it?
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But I think you can actually
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swap in your own
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Siri provider in the
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new 27 so like if you want to use like you know test gpt or anthropic or whatever you can i think
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configure it but i don't know if you can configure it for like the the transcription stuff but that
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would be that would be epic what what was the so there was whisper flow is that the open source
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project or is there an open source so open ai built whisper which is an open source model
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that's kind of the core of all these things whisper flow is a separate company that uses
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the open source open ai model because you can run the whisper model locally but you can do it
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totally private so i i don't i mean it's not integrated with like the click a button siri
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kind of keyboard workflow um i think that would need more openness from apple which is like uh
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maybe not i don't know how much we're gonna hope for that now hold up my breath but it is it is a
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private open source model you can just use locally so i use open super whisper which is like whisper
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Flow, but it's an open source product that does kind of the same thing.
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Why not open Mega Super Duper Whisper?
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That's what it feels like using it.
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Highly recommend people start using this.
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Change their behavior and their habits.
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I'm a convert now.
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And it is honestly, I'm spending more hours working from home
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instead of PB because of it.
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Although I love PB. I love being around people.
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so I think they're going to have to put up with me speaking to my computer,
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including my deskmate.
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I'm literally texting a group chat with my deskmates.
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Yeah, that's a little.
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And they hear me speaking, and then they receive my message.
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Interesting.
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We'll see how that dynamics.
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I usually lean in and try to actually whisper to it
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so that anybody around me can know that I'm not talking to them
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and I'm talking to the computer,
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because it actually picks up whispering pretty well.
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The name is legit.
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It holds.
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Yeah.
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It's the new generation of, is that guy crazy or just talking on the phone?
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And Max, I'm going to appeal to your censorship resistant attitude, which is when you type with your fingers.
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I have that attitude.
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Censoring yourself.
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You're censoring your thought by using your fingers.
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Your mouth.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Oh, very.
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It's a good point.
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Yeah.
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Much more than your fingers.
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Well, I mean, definitely.
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Stop accepting the censorship.
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I don't know if I would say the censorship resistance,
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but this is a very limited
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throughput way of community.
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But to your point,
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and I guess maybe I need to try this,
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I was sending a text message this morning
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talking on the phone.
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I was not using Oprah Superduper Whisperer.
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And it got like five typos.
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I sent a message to Anjali
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and I called her Andrew.
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So, all right.
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We got a lot of stuff to cover today.
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One thing I want to take over right off the bat
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is Presidio Bitcoin announced something
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a little bit more formal that we've done in the past,
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which is a visiting members program.
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So we have a lot of members here.
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These are full-time members.
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But last summer, we experimented with having
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a couple people who visit for like one month,
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three months, and it worked great.
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One of them is back again this summer.
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Open source Bitcoin core developer.
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So it's great having him here.
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And we want to expand this program.
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And so I don't think there's much awareness around it.
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I think people that are aware of PB
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and that there's a member model,
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they probably think, well, you have to live
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in San Francisco Bay Area,
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become a full-time member, which of course is possible.
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So anyone in that, you know,
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anyone that meets their needs, great.
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But yeah, you can live anywhere in the world.
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And if you're interested in spending some time here,
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we're open to it.
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I love it.
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So really, that's it.
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So let's find ways to get the word out.
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We'd love to, you know,
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you need to be working on
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Bitcoin or AI.
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If you work on open source,
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that's generally your ticket in.
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But as long as you align
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with the values of PB,
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we'd love to have you here.
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I see the rebrand is complete.
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PAI is also accepting.
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But to be clear,
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it would be great to get some more,
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particularly in the open source world, AI people here who are also
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Bitcoin, either users or curious. That would be cool.
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And Spiral's also giving grants to folks working on AI.
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And if you want to work out a PB as well, that would be great.
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There you go.
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For open source or commercial or anything, right? Just anything that's maybe a couple people
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or not a whole team, but a smallish group.
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yeah I mean in general we don't want any one
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entity to dominate membership here
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so if you have like a 15 person company
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we you know that's just too many
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for PB so I think right now
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we have at most like three people for a given
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organization here I guess depending
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on how you count Spiral has four but like the startups here
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I think three is the max yeah until we get our next
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But for visiting members, I don't know.
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I mean, that's...
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We'd be open to that, I think.
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We'd have to discuss it like a visiting startup company coming here.
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That'd be cool.
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You know, maybe.
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I mean, I was imagining just individuals,
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but we can certainly entertain a small pre-seed stage startup
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wanting to work from here for three months.
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I mean, also people with commercial ambitions,
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like people have met at PB and then co-founded companies together, right?
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yeah
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so it could be a good thing
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a visiting member might be able to find or do something like that
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yep absolutely
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cool
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a lot of exciting announcements this week
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yeah where do we start
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we'll start with Bitcoin 1
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Bitcoin 1
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there's like a ton
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yeah a Bitcoin 1
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Bitcoin Security Consortium
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was announced
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and I hinted to that a few months ago
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which I didn't really speak to at night
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but
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that was announced yesterday
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morning
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this is with strategy
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is that right?
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yeah
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so
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yeah
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Sailor reached out to me
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what?
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two or three months ago
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to connect me with
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Fong Li
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the CEO of strategy
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it was
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it was
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after Sailor
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had visited
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PB
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and I wasn't sure what the topic was going to be about
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but it was about starting this initiative
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and at first I was like
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gave me like NYA vibes
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or at least it didn't give me those vibes
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but that was the first question that came to my head
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which I saw yesterday several Bitcoiners
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that was the first thing that came to their mind
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and I'm glad it did
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I think it's unhealthy in Bitcoin if no one raised questions around this announcement.
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That, by the way, is the New York agreement, for those of you who are wondering what he's talking about, when Coinbase tried to co-opt Bitcoin or something.
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Very sober.
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But yeah, I mean, it raises anyone.
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So I mean, what is this, first of all?
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I'll get to the history in a second.
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But it's a group of nine companies, relatively large companies in the Bitcoin space, getting together to accomplish two things.
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One is inform people in Bitcoin about Bitcoin security, largely quantum right now, but Bitcoin security in general.
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And also fund efforts to help with security, but specifically quantum right now.
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And, you know, so getting to the, I mean, the concerns by any Bitcoiner should raise questions about this.
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in that is this a centralization vector?
286
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Is it big companies taking over Bitcoin?
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00:12:48,540 --> 00:12:49,940
Those are all reasonable things.
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And going back to the New York agreement,
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that was in 2017
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when a group of people got in a room in New York,
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big companies,
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00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,080
and came out of that room saying,
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00:13:04,260 --> 00:13:06,160
here's what we're doing in Bitcoin.
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And that's what happened.
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They did exactly what they wanted.
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well they failed
297
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that was my joke
298
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:16,400
but they failed but it caused
299
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,360
I think that was in May of 2017
300
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and then finally
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towards the end of October, first week in November
302
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2017 is when they finally capitulated
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00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,960
there was strong pushback by
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many companies, many developers, many
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00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:30,500
Bitcoiners, lots of other stakeholders
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in the ecosystem
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so that was a big
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00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,580
success at the time
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and so
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anyone with that history or knew that
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doesn't want to see that happen again.
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But that's not what this is.
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Or at least
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my diligence so far and why I
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00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:50,480
decided to represent Block and
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00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,540
Spiral and be part of this
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00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:54,580
tells me that that is not what the intention
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of this is. It's to inform
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and fund developers
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not to
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00:14:00,740 --> 00:14:02,540
dictate
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the direction of Bitcoin,
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especially the technical direction
324
00:14:06,580 --> 00:14:06,1000
of Bitcoin.
325
00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:13,180
So one question I had to ask myself is like, is this going to happen no matter what?
326
00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:18,520
I mean, even if I said no, I'm not interested, it's not like that would mean this group wouldn't have formed, right?
327
00:14:19,540 --> 00:14:23,420
So is Bitcoin better off if I'm part of this or not part of this?
328
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,240
And I think being part of it.
329
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:30,440
So one, my due diligence says that I think it's going to be a positive.
330
00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:32,620
I'll explain mine a little bit in a second.
331
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,160
Two, I think Bitcoin's better off if I'm involved.
332
00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:40,140
And then, well, and not just me,
333
00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:41,940
but a couple other people that I think are,
334
00:14:41,940 --> 00:14:45,740
I'm really happy or part of it are Adam Back and Mike Schmidt.
335
00:14:45,740 --> 00:14:59,732
The three of us combined have been part of Bitcoin development for a decade or in Adam case even more And we very much in tune with and in touch with open source development
336
00:14:59,932 --> 00:15:02,392
the open source developers, the broader community.
337
00:15:03,472 --> 00:15:11,892
So I think it's, you know, it's particularly up to us to like represent that in this consortium.
338
00:15:12,172 --> 00:15:13,552
And is the primary goal?
339
00:15:13,552 --> 00:15:25,512
So my understanding from a variety of sources is that, you know, a lot of people are concerned that, you know, Wall Street and whatever institutions are not going to embrace Bitcoin as long as quantum hangs over as a threat.
340
00:15:25,792 --> 00:15:35,852
And so is the primary goal here, you know, because I know if Saylor has been very outspoken in the past, like, let's say he's not the biggest fan of funding open source developers.
341
00:15:36,492 --> 00:15:40,032
And it wasn't, it seemed to me that he didn't even think quantum was a real threat.
342
00:15:40,032 --> 00:15:59,772
So is the focus more to educate people on why they shouldn't be worried until whatever, you know, Apple and other companies are taking steps towards quantum? Or is it to actually have a roadmap that is ready break glass, a roadmap that we follow even sooner, or some combination of those things and more?
343
00:15:59,772 --> 00:16:07,732
I'll answer that from sort of the BSC perspective collectively, and then I'll give my own view.
344
00:16:08,952 --> 00:16:14,592
So overall, inform and fund, that's the two functions of BSC.
345
00:16:16,532 --> 00:16:21,552
And I'd say overall from a BSC perspective, those are equal weight.
346
00:16:21,552 --> 00:16:23,572
the
347
00:16:23,572 --> 00:16:25,472
informed part, so then
348
00:16:25,472 --> 00:16:27,552
my own view is, I think the informed
349
00:16:27,552 --> 00:16:29,292
part is the most
350
00:16:29,292 --> 00:16:31,712
valuable part of it. And it's
351
00:16:31,712 --> 00:16:33,652
because there's already lots of
352
00:16:33,652 --> 00:16:34,832
people producing
353
00:16:34,832 --> 00:16:37,672
communications, information,
354
00:16:38,352 --> 00:16:38,892
analysis,
355
00:16:39,612 --> 00:16:41,512
obviously here at Presidia Bitcoin.
356
00:16:41,872 --> 00:16:43,752
We held what I think is the best
357
00:16:43,752 --> 00:16:45,872
event so far around quantum and Bitcoin.
358
00:16:46,132 --> 00:16:47,612
And the white paper. And then we also
359
00:16:47,612 --> 00:16:49,732
produced what I think is the best report
360
00:16:49,732 --> 00:16:51,512
on it. And it's a living project too.
361
00:16:51,552 --> 00:16:52,912
that anyone can contribute to.
362
00:16:54,912 --> 00:16:58,312
But many others have done similar things.
363
00:16:59,192 --> 00:17:00,232
And so that already exists,
364
00:17:00,412 --> 00:17:05,552
but does the PB work get the eyeballs it deserves?
365
00:17:05,932 --> 00:17:06,792
I don't think so.
366
00:17:07,852 --> 00:17:11,232
So I think when you attach large companies
367
00:17:11,232 --> 00:17:14,412
and big brands to high-quality information,
368
00:17:14,552 --> 00:17:16,252
it's going to get a lot more awareness and eyeballs.
369
00:17:16,252 --> 00:17:18,212
So when you have BlackRock and Coinbase
370
00:17:18,212 --> 00:17:20,452
and Fidelity and Block and others
371
00:17:20,452 --> 00:17:21,852
and strategy
372
00:17:21,852 --> 00:17:24,952
saying
373
00:17:24,952 --> 00:17:27,072
this is a good source of information
374
00:17:27,072 --> 00:17:28,812
it's going to carry a lot of weight
375
00:17:28,812 --> 00:17:31,052
so certainly one push
376
00:17:31,052 --> 00:17:33,092
I've had multiple times so far
377
00:17:33,092 --> 00:17:34,652
in engaging with this group
378
00:17:34,652 --> 00:17:36,952
is that they should piggyback off
379
00:17:36,952 --> 00:17:39,132
of the PB project, I think it's good work
380
00:17:39,132 --> 00:17:40,812
they can also contribute to it
381
00:17:40,812 --> 00:17:42,552
other people can contribute to it
382
00:17:42,552 --> 00:17:44,692
several people have done recent
383
00:17:44,692 --> 00:17:45,232
interesting
384
00:17:45,232 --> 00:17:50,052
sorry
385
00:17:50,052 --> 00:17:51,792
That was a different project.
386
00:17:52,152 --> 00:17:54,072
Anyway, the other project a few years ago
387
00:17:54,072 --> 00:17:55,632
was the consensus analysis project.
388
00:17:55,772 --> 00:17:56,792
I was going to say that a few people
389
00:17:56,792 --> 00:17:58,372
are doing interesting work around that
390
00:17:58,372 --> 00:18:00,912
and I'm encouraging them to contribute to it.
391
00:18:01,292 --> 00:18:03,472
It would be a similar type of encouragement for Quantum.
392
00:18:04,332 --> 00:18:07,312
Anyhow, so I think the Inform is huge
393
00:18:07,312 --> 00:18:09,452
because there are a lot of people
394
00:18:09,452 --> 00:18:12,452
who do look up to those brands.
395
00:18:12,592 --> 00:18:13,972
They're either customers of those companies
396
00:18:13,972 --> 00:18:17,692
or they want to see that sort of endorsement
397
00:18:17,692 --> 00:18:18,612
from a large brand.
398
00:18:18,612 --> 00:18:21,472
and yeah, they might be on the sidelines of Bitcoin right now.
399
00:18:21,532 --> 00:18:23,132
It might be hurting their adoption of Bitcoin.
400
00:18:24,532 --> 00:18:31,692
And so anything we can do to have a reasonable overall balance take
401
00:18:31,692 --> 00:18:33,512
on the quantum fears is important.
402
00:18:34,072 --> 00:18:38,232
Because otherwise people are seeing panic type of communication
403
00:18:38,232 --> 00:18:41,112
or stick your head in the sand.
404
00:18:42,112 --> 00:18:44,032
It's a never coming, it's not an issue.
405
00:18:44,112 --> 00:18:44,832
We don't need a plan.
406
00:18:44,832 --> 00:18:47,892
And either of those extreme positions I disagree with.
407
00:18:47,892 --> 00:18:50,632
I think BSC disagrees with.
408
00:18:51,152 --> 00:18:53,112
Certainly the PB work that we've done
409
00:18:53,112 --> 00:18:54,172
on the quantum project,
410
00:18:54,532 --> 00:18:57,872
it doesn't take either extreme position.
411
00:18:58,132 --> 00:18:59,372
It takes a position of like,
412
00:18:59,972 --> 00:19:02,232
no one really knows if or when
413
00:19:02,232 --> 00:19:05,492
on QRC,
414
00:19:06,072 --> 00:19:08,092
or cryptographically relevant quantum computing.
415
00:19:09,052 --> 00:19:12,232
And because we all love and care about Bitcoin
416
00:19:12,232 --> 00:19:13,852
and have money at stake,
417
00:19:13,852 --> 00:19:17,752
and it makes sense to have a plan.
418
00:19:17,892 --> 00:19:30,232
And so that report speaks to a plan for different scenarios, one in which it's maybe 15 to 20 years away, and then others with more emergency responses.
419
00:19:30,232 --> 00:19:34,032
So a couple things, I'm curious if anything has, I haven't done a deep dive on quantum
420
00:19:34,032 --> 00:19:37,652
stuff since I read through the Proceeding of Bitcoin report, which is excellent.
421
00:19:37,772 --> 00:19:38,732
I highly recommend everyone read that.
422
00:19:40,072 --> 00:19:43,152
One big takeaway I think that's worth stressing, then a question I'm making has changed.
423
00:19:43,272 --> 00:19:51,412
One is, assuming a quantum computer is not extremely fast, then I think the takeaway
424
00:19:51,412 --> 00:19:57,152
was you could move, what is it, 80% of the value in quantum vulnerable addresses in under
425
00:19:57,152 --> 00:19:57,772
24 hours.
426
00:19:57,932 --> 00:19:59,112
Is that still the case?
427
00:19:59,112 --> 00:19:59,972
I think the exact thing.
428
00:20:00,232 --> 00:20:04,612
timing. That's the general direction. Yeah. So then the two big questions I have on what's
429
00:20:04,612 --> 00:20:11,252
changed is one, do we have any reason to believe that a quantum relevant computer, whatever you're
430
00:20:11,252 --> 00:20:17,552
calling it, is going to be fast enough that it could front run transactions yet? That to me is
431
00:20:17,552 --> 00:20:21,312
like the real thing to be scared of. And then number two, and is there any way to even like
432
00:20:21,312 --> 00:20:24,292
benchmark that? Because again, I know we've talked about this in the show, the concern I always have
433
00:20:24,292 --> 00:20:28,172
is like if people aren't following progress with Fable and Mythos and all this, like how is that
434
00:20:28,172 --> 00:20:29,932
going to help that come out of the woodwork?
435
00:20:30,192 --> 00:20:31,272
Yeah, you can answer that first.
436
00:20:31,272 --> 00:20:33,432
Well, I also don't want, I mean, we've talked about this
437
00:20:33,432 --> 00:20:35,512
on many episodes, so I don't want to
438
00:20:35,512 --> 00:20:37,492
rehash things we've already talked about, but the quick answers
439
00:20:37,492 --> 00:20:39,512
are, even if you can
440
00:20:39,512 --> 00:20:41,432
do it in a day, move 80%
441
00:20:41,432 --> 00:20:42,672
of the value, where are you going to move it to?
442
00:20:43,072 --> 00:20:44,832
We don't have something to move it to yet.
443
00:20:46,152 --> 00:20:47,112
That's my second question.
444
00:20:47,612 --> 00:20:49,532
And then we don't,
445
00:20:49,632 --> 00:20:51,432
the answer to your other question, we don't
446
00:20:51,432 --> 00:20:51,952
know.
447
00:20:52,892 --> 00:20:55,492
My other big question that's formed since our last conversation
448
00:20:55,492 --> 00:20:57,432
is, I know that a lot of
449
00:20:57,432 --> 00:21:00,732
the quantum resistant cryptographic schemes
450
00:21:00,732 --> 00:21:02,072
people working on work,
451
00:21:02,172 --> 00:21:02,732
but they're fat.
452
00:21:02,812 --> 00:21:03,732
They take up more space,
453
00:21:03,732 --> 00:21:05,112
you know, whatever blockchain space.
454
00:21:06,452 --> 00:21:09,772
I want to say I've heard through various grapevines
455
00:21:09,772 --> 00:21:11,712
that other internet companies
456
00:21:11,712 --> 00:21:12,552
and major companies
457
00:21:12,552 --> 00:21:14,492
are adopting lattice-based cryptography.
458
00:21:15,072 --> 00:21:16,892
However, lattice-based cryptography
459
00:21:16,892 --> 00:21:18,452
has only been around for 20 years or so.
460
00:21:18,952 --> 00:21:20,172
Is that gaining any traction?
461
00:21:20,352 --> 00:21:23,132
And like, how do you think about like funding both plans
462
00:21:23,132 --> 00:21:24,012
or one plan, you know?
463
00:21:24,012 --> 00:21:27,852
well let's unpack a few things here
464
00:21:27,852 --> 00:21:30,112
one I don't want to spend an hour
465
00:21:30,112 --> 00:21:31,872
rehashing what we've already talked about
466
00:21:31,872 --> 00:21:32,752
but really quick
467
00:21:32,752 --> 00:21:36,432
the answer to
468
00:21:36,432 --> 00:21:38,192
why don't you just fix it now
469
00:21:38,192 --> 00:21:40,632
well it's because any choice we make
470
00:21:40,632 --> 00:21:43,152
with quantum resistant cryptography
471
00:21:43,152 --> 00:21:44,192
has drawbacks
472
00:21:44,192 --> 00:21:47,052
requires way more computation
473
00:21:47,052 --> 00:21:48,712
takes up too much space
474
00:21:48,712 --> 00:21:50,612
or more space, a lot more space
475
00:21:50,612 --> 00:21:52,552
also reduced functionality
476
00:21:53,472 --> 00:21:56,772
Like features we've added to Bitcoin since 2009 would be taken away.
477
00:21:57,012 --> 00:21:58,152
And to be clear, I'm not saying fix it now.
478
00:21:58,292 --> 00:21:59,072
I'm saying how do we decide how to build that?
479
00:21:59,072 --> 00:22:01,592
I'm just saying that's the answer to why don't we do it right away.
480
00:22:01,692 --> 00:22:01,992
Right, right.
481
00:22:01,992 --> 00:22:07,652
Now, lattice-based is definitely beneficial across all those fronts,
482
00:22:08,252 --> 00:22:13,072
but it has a drawback of its more novel cryptography, which has risks.
483
00:22:13,452 --> 00:22:15,792
So that's why planning for like,
484
00:22:16,052 --> 00:22:18,932
this is not going to be an issue for 15 to 20 years,
485
00:22:18,932 --> 00:22:20,492
all of a sudden cryptography like that,
486
00:22:20,652 --> 00:22:22,772
my opinion is much more interesting
487
00:22:22,772 --> 00:22:25,112
because that would give it way more time to bake.
488
00:22:26,452 --> 00:22:28,512
Which is also why, you know,
489
00:22:29,112 --> 00:22:32,112
rushing that in now seems like a bigger risk
490
00:22:32,112 --> 00:22:33,592
than being patient.
491
00:22:34,192 --> 00:22:36,952
But I think we need to be investing
492
00:22:36,952 --> 00:22:39,252
across a number of different potential solutions
493
00:22:39,252 --> 00:22:41,312
because we don't know exactly the timeframes
494
00:22:41,312 --> 00:22:43,272
to add this.
495
00:22:44,672 --> 00:22:46,312
And then the other thing to unpack too
496
00:22:46,312 --> 00:22:49,172
is that this new initiative,
497
00:22:49,592 --> 00:22:52,392
it's not pooling funding together
498
00:22:52,392 --> 00:22:56,072
to make some centralized decision
499
00:22:56,072 --> 00:22:56,992
on what to fund.
500
00:22:57,292 --> 00:22:59,932
Each individual organization can fund.
501
00:23:00,312 --> 00:23:01,192
I can choose their,
502
00:23:01,332 --> 00:23:02,152
like Spiral's not,
503
00:23:02,472 --> 00:23:04,552
I'm not going to let BlackRock decide
504
00:23:04,552 --> 00:23:06,092
what Spiral funds.
505
00:23:06,832 --> 00:23:07,892
Spiral's going to keep funding
506
00:23:07,892 --> 00:23:08,792
what we think is best.
507
00:23:08,932 --> 00:23:10,072
I thought Larry Fink had taken the reins.
508
00:23:10,972 --> 00:23:12,852
And so that's not changing.
509
00:23:13,092 --> 00:23:13,632
So, you know,
510
00:23:13,692 --> 00:23:14,672
already some of the companies
511
00:23:14,672 --> 00:23:15,272
have already done
512
00:23:15,272 --> 00:23:17,292
substantial funding. Spiral,
513
00:23:17,572 --> 00:23:19,492
Blockstream, lots of funding. We're going to
514
00:23:19,492 --> 00:23:20,272
keep doing our thing.
515
00:23:21,412 --> 00:23:23,572
And then others are going to start
516
00:23:23,572 --> 00:23:25,412
funding or
517
00:23:25,412 --> 00:23:27,152
funding more, and that's great as well.
518
00:23:27,652 --> 00:23:29,232
I think it's really important, though, that
519
00:23:29,232 --> 00:23:31,312
the organizations can fund
520
00:23:31,312 --> 00:23:33,352
independently. And of course, you don't need to be
521
00:23:33,352 --> 00:23:35,312
part of this consortium to
522
00:23:35,312 --> 00:23:37,232
fund development work.
523
00:23:37,232 --> 00:23:38,992
That also doesn't change anything. Like,
524
00:23:39,052 --> 00:23:41,232
Localhost and Chaincode do a great job
525
00:23:41,232 --> 00:23:43,192
funding things. Localhost
526
00:23:43,192 --> 00:23:44,232
has a quantum initiative.
527
00:23:44,232 --> 00:23:48,292
they don't need to join this to fund.
528
00:23:48,592 --> 00:23:51,772
So I would want nothing to impact
529
00:23:51,772 --> 00:23:56,132
the diversity of funding and diversification of funding.
530
00:23:56,772 --> 00:23:56,832
Cool.
531
00:23:56,832 --> 00:23:57,012
Yeah.
532
00:23:59,212 --> 00:24:02,512
So, yeah, I think it's,
533
00:24:02,932 --> 00:24:05,972
I think the informing part should be
534
00:24:05,972 --> 00:24:08,252
a material win for Bitcoin.
535
00:24:09,372 --> 00:24:12,612
And to whatever degree adoption is being slowed by those fears,
536
00:24:12,612 --> 00:24:15,812
I think it's one of the most important things to address that.
537
00:24:16,392 --> 00:24:19,552
And if this brings in more dollars of funding for Bitcoin development,
538
00:24:19,892 --> 00:24:20,572
that's great as well.
539
00:24:21,212 --> 00:24:23,992
And then everyone should be monitoring this to make sure
540
00:24:23,992 --> 00:24:27,132
any negative scenarios.
541
00:24:27,292 --> 00:24:29,452
And I've said to the group and publicly,
542
00:24:29,912 --> 00:24:34,572
if I sniff out any kind of direction I think is super unhealthy for Bitcoin,
543
00:24:35,152 --> 00:24:37,752
I mean, I'll initially talk about it with this group,
544
00:24:37,912 --> 00:24:41,992
but if they don't budge and if they go in what I perceive as the wrong direction,
545
00:24:41,992 --> 00:24:45,052
then I'll let everyone know that and I'll bow out.
546
00:24:45,372 --> 00:24:46,972
So I don't expect that to happen.
547
00:24:47,412 --> 00:24:47,612
Yeah.
548
00:24:47,912 --> 00:24:48,052
Cool.
549
00:24:48,332 --> 00:24:48,432
Yeah.
550
00:24:48,532 --> 00:24:53,232
And it sounds like the quantum stuff is sort of the driving or the motivating factor to
551
00:24:53,232 --> 00:24:56,852
bring everybody together around this, but it's titled kind of security consortium.
552
00:24:56,972 --> 00:25:02,152
So is it intended, like I know in the past you did some deep dive on like looking at security
553
00:25:02,152 --> 00:25:06,372
budgets and trying to understand if that, if the security budget is going to be good
554
00:25:06,372 --> 00:25:09,372
enough, is that the kind of project that this group might take on?
555
00:25:09,372 --> 00:25:11,812
or do you have any other things outside of quantum
556
00:25:11,812 --> 00:25:15,972
that we may be looking at over the years?
557
00:25:17,472 --> 00:25:18,852
Yeah, I think it's TBD.
558
00:25:19,432 --> 00:25:21,972
Because also when you say take on, what does that mean?
559
00:25:22,312 --> 00:25:26,932
Again, right now it doesn't inform or fund.
560
00:25:27,512 --> 00:25:33,232
So I'm not really sure if, well, I wouldn't call it a priority.
561
00:25:33,232 --> 00:25:36,372
I don't see urgency around informing people
562
00:25:36,372 --> 00:25:38,452
about security budget right now.
563
00:25:38,452 --> 00:25:42,072
I mean, I think it's an interesting topic for us to talk about on the show, and we've talked about it on the show.
564
00:25:42,212 --> 00:25:45,192
And it is something I spend a little bit of time thinking about.
565
00:25:45,272 --> 00:25:47,632
I think some people in Bitcoin should spend time thinking about that.
566
00:25:47,712 --> 00:25:54,412
But it doesn't seem to be an urgent need to communicate around that to a Fidelity customer, for example.
567
00:25:55,072 --> 00:25:59,572
So, yeah, I don't see a lot of urgency around that.
568
00:26:01,752 --> 00:26:02,152
Yeah.
569
00:26:02,752 --> 00:26:03,152
Cool.
570
00:26:03,452 --> 00:26:04,252
That's all I have on it.
571
00:26:04,372 --> 00:26:04,512
Yeah.
572
00:26:04,872 --> 00:26:07,292
All right, what else we got next up?
573
00:26:07,292 --> 00:26:10,012
We got buzz launches in the title.
574
00:26:10,472 --> 00:26:10,592
Ooh.
575
00:26:11,632 --> 00:26:12,372
Buzz it is.
576
00:26:12,872 --> 00:26:13,192
Buzz.
577
00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:19,552
We finally, we got Max on buzz more actively just in the last hour or two.
578
00:26:19,912 --> 00:26:20,812
I think he didn't want to be.
579
00:26:20,972 --> 00:26:21,852
Not really.
580
00:26:22,632 --> 00:26:23,932
No, he did.
581
00:26:24,692 --> 00:26:28,892
I would say for the last couple hours.
582
00:26:29,312 --> 00:26:30,092
He doesn't have an agent.
583
00:26:30,092 --> 00:26:35,452
Well, that's a philosophical issue.
584
00:26:35,452 --> 00:26:39,192
anyway I the first thing I'll say is that
585
00:26:39,192 --> 00:26:43,232
the you know hopefully this encourages more people
586
00:26:43,232 --> 00:26:47,092
to listen to PBJ because we've been talking about buzz for over
587
00:26:47,092 --> 00:26:51,112
two months in fact over three in April we started talking about it back when it was
588
00:26:51,112 --> 00:26:54,852
sprout yeah so and
589
00:26:54,852 --> 00:26:58,992
you know DK and I have been two of the first users
590
00:26:58,992 --> 00:27:03,132
of buzz sort of external to block we were the first ones along
591
00:27:03,132 --> 00:27:04,992
with Matt Belez to use it
592
00:27:04,992 --> 00:27:07,572
in a semi-public
593
00:27:07,572 --> 00:27:09,172
Nostra Relay server.
594
00:27:10,352 --> 00:27:11,132
That's why I'm behind.
595
00:27:12,012 --> 00:27:13,312
Have a tremendous amount
596
00:27:13,312 --> 00:27:14,552
of experience with it.
597
00:27:15,592 --> 00:27:17,172
I've been bullish on Buzz
598
00:27:17,172 --> 00:27:19,332
since the first demo I saw
599
00:27:19,332 --> 00:27:21,252
of it in April. I saw a demo
600
00:27:21,252 --> 00:27:23,192
and I'm like, this is the future. It was so obvious.
601
00:27:24,112 --> 00:27:25,152
So I'm so happy
602
00:27:25,152 --> 00:27:27,012
that this week it's gotten such
603
00:27:27,012 --> 00:27:29,232
incredible response from people.
604
00:27:29,372 --> 00:27:30,832
It's trending number one on GitHub, no?
605
00:27:31,292 --> 00:27:32,632
It's still trending number one.
606
00:27:32,632 --> 00:27:39,512
still get up wow yeah so i think it's already at like 10 000 stars on oh for real github oh shit
607
00:27:39,512 --> 00:27:44,152
so it's not it's the number one every day that's the number one well sure we'll talk a lot more
608
00:27:44,152 --> 00:27:48,832
about this but for everyone that was always like no nostril is dead no one uses social like this
609
00:27:48,832 --> 00:27:54,932
is the number one 10 000 star trending nostril app you're and if you really want the alpha you
610
00:27:54,932 --> 00:28:00,452
can go back to hear people talking about this oh i don't know me and dk on nostril news in 2020 was
611
00:28:00,452 --> 00:28:03,192
at 2? 23? We've been waiting for this.
612
00:28:04,112 --> 00:28:06,632
I mean, chronically, 5 to 10 years
613
00:28:06,632 --> 00:28:08,292
too early, but finally, here we go.
614
00:28:09,212 --> 00:28:11,992
I'm super happy with the response because it's
615
00:28:11,992 --> 00:28:15,592
similar to myself and
616
00:28:15,592 --> 00:28:18,672
DK and everyone else I know that has touched Buzz
617
00:28:18,672 --> 00:28:21,312
in the past few months, their initial reaction too.
618
00:28:22,672 --> 00:28:24,652
So it's just, it's great to see that.
619
00:28:24,652 --> 00:28:27,872
I really do think it's, I really do think
620
00:28:27,872 --> 00:28:33,972
that like a year from now, the majority of open source projects will have moved to Buzz.
621
00:28:35,172 --> 00:28:42,472
And then I think commercial adoption of it will occur too. That'll be a longer slog because
622
00:28:42,472 --> 00:28:48,132
a company just doesn't like move from Slack to something new instantly. But I think open
623
00:28:48,132 --> 00:28:53,532
source projects are, we're going to see very rapid adoption because open source projects
624
00:28:53,532 --> 00:28:57,652
generally don't use Slack because it's a horrible tool for open source projects.
625
00:28:57,872 --> 00:28:59,632
because of their business model.
626
00:28:59,892 --> 00:29:02,552
It just literally, it does not work for a project
627
00:29:02,552 --> 00:29:04,732
that is permissionless and lets anyone join
628
00:29:04,732 --> 00:29:07,672
because it would cost a project hundreds of thousands of dollars a year
629
00:29:07,672 --> 00:29:09,652
and they don't have a budget for that.
630
00:29:10,552 --> 00:29:14,292
So often open source projects will choose Discord or Mattermost
631
00:29:14,292 --> 00:29:17,472
or Zulip or a variety of other matrix.
632
00:29:17,732 --> 00:29:18,932
There's a zillion different tools.
633
00:29:19,092 --> 00:29:21,172
I'm on all of them because I'm on these different projects.
634
00:29:21,172 --> 00:29:24,872
I lurk or contribute to many different projects.
635
00:29:25,692 --> 00:29:27,392
No one's happy with any of these tools.
636
00:29:27,872 --> 00:29:29,812
And Discord, I'd say, is the most popular,
637
00:29:30,132 --> 00:29:33,432
at least within Bitcoin or the open source projects
638
00:29:33,432 --> 00:29:35,092
I've been part of.
639
00:29:35,192 --> 00:29:37,692
And it is what Spiral recommends for a new community,
640
00:29:38,472 --> 00:29:39,772
like begrudgingly so,
641
00:29:40,032 --> 00:29:51,205
not because we like super enthusiastic about Discord So that combined with how AI is completely transformed
642
00:29:51,205 --> 00:29:53,164
how a project can communicate
643
00:29:53,164 --> 00:29:55,144
and build those two
644
00:29:55,144 --> 00:29:57,124
things, I think is why we'll see
645
00:29:57,124 --> 00:29:59,164
rapid adoption among open source projects.
646
00:29:59,384 --> 00:30:00,624
And already this past week,
647
00:30:01,104 --> 00:30:02,384
we've spun up
648
00:30:02,384 --> 00:30:05,144
different people have spun
649
00:30:05,144 --> 00:30:07,084
up communities for Cashew and
650
00:30:07,084 --> 00:30:08,945
Lightning Development Kit and many other projects.
651
00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:10,164
We're already seeing great traction.
652
00:30:10,164 --> 00:30:11,664
how do you discover these projects on there?
653
00:30:11,705 --> 00:30:12,745
Because I was looking for channels,
654
00:30:12,824 --> 00:30:13,445
and I see a couple,
655
00:30:13,564 --> 00:30:15,104
but how do I find, for example,
656
00:30:15,284 --> 00:30:16,745
this Lightning Development Kit channel?
657
00:30:17,184 --> 00:30:17,705
Is it public,
658
00:30:17,824 --> 00:30:19,005
or I guess where those are closed?
659
00:30:19,524 --> 00:30:19,924
You need to invite.
660
00:30:20,804 --> 00:30:22,804
Well, it can be either.
661
00:30:24,725 --> 00:30:25,465
I mean, you can...
662
00:30:25,465 --> 00:30:26,884
This LBK thing is a server,
663
00:30:27,024 --> 00:30:28,124
not a channel, right?
664
00:30:28,164 --> 00:30:29,604
Because Max, right now, you're on...
665
00:30:29,604 --> 00:30:30,205
It's a community.
666
00:30:31,084 --> 00:30:32,745
Yeah, so there's community,
667
00:30:32,945 --> 00:30:33,424
and there's channels.
668
00:30:33,424 --> 00:30:35,364
And discovery of each
669
00:30:35,364 --> 00:30:37,324
is a good topic to have.
670
00:30:37,904 --> 00:30:38,764
But for a community,
671
00:30:38,764 --> 00:30:41,584
yeah I mean like the community creators
672
00:30:41,584 --> 00:30:43,284
can choose how they want to
673
00:30:43,284 --> 00:30:45,324
you know whether they want it public
674
00:30:45,324 --> 00:30:46,965
or private they can choose
675
00:30:46,965 --> 00:30:49,424
and if it's public well then it's upon them to
676
00:30:49,424 --> 00:30:51,264
like promote it and create awareness
677
00:30:51,264 --> 00:30:53,564
around it like LDK
678
00:30:53,564 --> 00:30:55,445
is intended to be public
679
00:30:55,445 --> 00:30:57,104
just like our LDK discord
680
00:30:57,104 --> 00:30:59,624
and same with
681
00:30:59,624 --> 00:31:01,424
well and then some
682
00:31:01,424 --> 00:31:03,044
communities you want a mix
683
00:31:03,044 --> 00:31:05,424
and that's another experiment that needs to play
684
00:31:05,424 --> 00:31:07,084
out like Presidio Bitcoin
685
00:31:07,084 --> 00:31:08,584
right now we have a
686
00:31:08,584 --> 00:31:10,284
How do I find that? I was looking for that today.
687
00:31:10,745 --> 00:31:11,965
I'll answer your question in a second.
688
00:31:12,304 --> 00:31:14,344
Right now we have a
689
00:31:14,344 --> 00:31:16,644
Discord server just for members
690
00:31:16,644 --> 00:31:18,965
and then a separate Discord server that's public.
691
00:31:20,205 --> 00:31:20,945
We would like
692
00:31:20,945 --> 00:31:23,104
to move to Buzz but right now
693
00:31:23,104 --> 00:31:24,804
you know, so there is now a
694
00:31:24,804 --> 00:31:26,965
PB Buzz. Let's feel it
695
00:31:26,965 --> 00:31:28,945
out and see are we ready to move
696
00:31:28,945 --> 00:31:30,985
everyone over to it. And if we do move everyone over
697
00:31:30,985 --> 00:31:32,804
to it, do we create one
698
00:31:32,804 --> 00:31:34,884
PB Buzz community or
699
00:31:34,884 --> 00:31:36,884
two? And if we create
700
00:31:36,884 --> 00:31:43,764
one, then we need to figure out how to properly scope access to members-only stuff in the public.
701
00:31:44,485 --> 00:31:49,364
And each channel can be permission. So you can have a channel that's public or a channel that's
702
00:31:49,364 --> 00:31:56,604
private. So we can do that. But I think through experience, we might find some foot guns where you
703
00:31:56,604 --> 00:32:05,284
think you're communicating to just the members, but it leaks out to the public. And that could be
704
00:32:05,284 --> 00:32:07,784
the source of that could be because
705
00:32:07,784 --> 00:32:09,524
you didn't understand the
706
00:32:09,524 --> 00:32:11,544
when you're posting to a channel you weren't sure
707
00:32:11,544 --> 00:32:13,624
or with agents. Agents might
708
00:32:13,624 --> 00:32:15,364
create a channel that you join
709
00:32:15,364 --> 00:32:17,584
or they post to a channel, they
710
00:32:17,584 --> 00:32:19,624
get it wrong. So I think that needs to
711
00:32:19,624 --> 00:32:21,584
be teased out more. But I mean to answer your question
712
00:32:21,584 --> 00:32:23,505
how do you find out about it, you need to use
713
00:32:23,505 --> 00:32:25,124
PB Discord. That's where it was posted.
714
00:32:26,705 --> 00:32:27,645
But I mean if you don't
715
00:32:27,645 --> 00:32:28,784
use PB Discord then you're not.
716
00:32:30,784 --> 00:32:31,965
You need
717
00:32:31,965 --> 00:32:32,384
to engage.
718
00:32:32,384 --> 00:32:36,544
I have no faith that you'll use PB Buzz if you don't use PB Discord.
719
00:32:36,745 --> 00:32:41,705
You need to use the communication tool that PB offers to learn about things that are happening in PB.
720
00:32:41,784 --> 00:32:42,184
Well, okay.
721
00:32:42,384 --> 00:32:45,604
So I guess my question for that was, is there a public search you could do for the relay?
722
00:32:45,945 --> 00:32:52,604
Well, to the degree that we want the same PB community to be public, then yes.
723
00:32:52,784 --> 00:32:57,684
I mean, it should probably be on the PB website, the PB Twitter handle, and other ways to reach out.
724
00:32:58,044 --> 00:32:59,364
Just for the member one, though.
725
00:32:59,485 --> 00:32:59,664
Yeah.
726
00:33:00,164 --> 00:33:00,664
And finally.
727
00:33:00,784 --> 00:33:00,965
No.
728
00:33:00,965 --> 00:33:01,764
No, I get that.
729
00:33:01,764 --> 00:33:05,564
And by the way, like this is where I get so excited about where this is going long term.
730
00:33:05,645 --> 00:33:10,245
I know we're early days, but like Steve is giving me a hard time here.
731
00:33:10,304 --> 00:33:12,584
But my philosophy is just like too many fucking apps.
732
00:33:12,584 --> 00:33:14,524
Like I refused to open Telegram.
733
00:33:14,645 --> 00:33:16,745
I refused to open just like just too many damn apps.
734
00:33:17,164 --> 00:33:21,505
But what's awesome with this is in theory, now I can have one identity that could plug
735
00:33:21,505 --> 00:33:22,324
into everything.
736
00:33:22,725 --> 00:33:26,264
And that's always been the hope for Nostra is like it starts at this kind of like Slack
737
00:33:26,264 --> 00:33:26,564
thing.
738
00:33:26,824 --> 00:33:31,284
And then over time we could you could imagine, hey, I built a reputation on this.
739
00:33:31,284 --> 00:33:32,664
I plug it into a Signal app
740
00:33:32,664 --> 00:33:35,245
and all of a sudden I have one key
741
00:33:35,245 --> 00:33:36,864
one identity to rule them all
742
00:33:36,864 --> 00:33:38,824
and I don't have to ever
743
00:33:38,824 --> 00:33:40,284
download a new app again.
744
00:33:40,784 --> 00:33:41,164
Totally agree.
745
00:33:41,524 --> 00:33:44,705
You might get to Sunset all your other ones
746
00:33:44,705 --> 00:33:45,245
because you could do
747
00:33:45,245 --> 00:33:49,084
We could move our Signal group
748
00:33:49,084 --> 00:33:50,044
over to some
749
00:33:50,044 --> 00:33:53,225
private group
750
00:33:53,225 --> 00:33:55,005
on a community on Buzz.
751
00:33:55,344 --> 00:33:57,084
That's my dream. If I never download another app again
752
00:33:57,084 --> 00:33:57,844
in my life, I'm thrilled.
753
00:33:58,684 --> 00:34:01,024
Not only if you're done downloading
754
00:34:01,024 --> 00:34:02,905
apps, do you actually get to delete apps? Delete apps.
755
00:34:02,985 --> 00:34:05,165
Let's go. I mean, in the future
756
00:34:05,165 --> 00:34:07,245
my dream is I don't even want to have to look at a screen.
757
00:34:07,544 --> 00:34:09,024
I just want to be like, okay, I'm just
758
00:34:09,024 --> 00:34:11,084
talking, just route this where it needs to go.
759
00:34:11,984 --> 00:34:12,705
That's where it is.
760
00:34:13,365 --> 00:34:14,225
Well, hold on.
761
00:34:14,544 --> 00:34:17,084
You don't need another identity again. You don't need
762
00:34:17,084 --> 00:34:17,784
another app.
763
00:34:19,405 --> 00:34:20,804
I'm very bullish on Buzz.
764
00:34:20,804 --> 00:34:22,845
Like I said, I think all
765
00:34:22,845 --> 00:34:24,524
open source projects will eventually use it.
766
00:34:24,665 --> 00:34:26,825
I think it'll make great inroads into companies
767
00:34:26,825 --> 00:34:28,925
as well, or organizations of all types.
768
00:34:29,185 --> 00:34:30,845
I think the new companies that get started
769
00:34:30,845 --> 00:34:32,204
we'll get started on it.
770
00:34:32,405 --> 00:34:33,044
So like the company
771
00:34:33,044 --> 00:34:33,724
of the future again,
772
00:34:33,865 --> 00:34:34,304
Buzz, right?
773
00:34:34,464 --> 00:34:34,724
I agree.
774
00:34:34,804 --> 00:34:35,405
But I don't think
775
00:34:35,405 --> 00:34:35,865
it's going to be
776
00:34:35,865 --> 00:34:36,764
the only app
777
00:34:36,764 --> 00:34:37,665
we ever use
778
00:34:37,665 --> 00:34:38,724
for everything in the world.
779
00:34:38,825 --> 00:34:39,644
So I think,
780
00:34:39,845 --> 00:34:41,264
but the identity.
781
00:34:41,944 --> 00:34:42,504
That's what I'm saying.
782
00:34:42,905 --> 00:34:43,264
Yeah.
783
00:34:43,624 --> 00:34:44,685
Because imagine a future
784
00:34:44,685 --> 00:34:46,144
where like post apps,
785
00:34:46,304 --> 00:34:47,504
like go into the future
786
00:34:47,504 --> 00:34:47,885
where like,
787
00:34:47,964 --> 00:34:48,124
okay,
788
00:34:48,464 --> 00:34:49,264
what I need
789
00:34:49,264 --> 00:34:50,004
is my private key.
790
00:34:50,104 --> 00:34:50,484
That's it.
791
00:34:50,865 --> 00:34:51,964
Once I have that private key
792
00:34:51,964 --> 00:34:52,885
properly secured,
793
00:34:53,464 --> 00:34:53,704
like,
794
00:34:53,784 --> 00:34:53,964
I mean,
795
00:34:53,964 --> 00:34:54,704
one day you won't even
796
00:34:54,704 --> 00:34:55,484
need necessarily Buzz.
797
00:34:55,624 --> 00:34:56,325
Like it's great
798
00:34:56,325 --> 00:34:57,644
that that is a standalone app,
799
00:34:57,924 --> 00:34:58,484
but in the future
800
00:34:58,484 --> 00:34:59,345
it's going to be like,
801
00:34:59,444 --> 00:34:59,604
okay,
802
00:34:59,624 --> 00:35:00,685
I'm talking to my agent.
803
00:35:00,845 --> 00:35:04,165
render me whatever UX I need, if I need a UX at all,
804
00:35:04,424 --> 00:35:07,345
or else even better, don't make me click or do anything.
805
00:35:07,624 --> 00:35:09,624
Just, hey, I want to send this to DK.
806
00:35:09,905 --> 00:35:11,385
Maybe one day it'll use, you know,
807
00:35:11,464 --> 00:35:13,784
DK on your DNS replacement on Bitcoin
808
00:35:13,784 --> 00:35:15,304
so they know exactly who I mean.
809
00:35:15,504 --> 00:35:16,204
Just route it to them.
810
00:35:16,804 --> 00:35:17,584
That's where I think we're headed.
811
00:35:17,744 --> 00:35:19,464
And what's cool is, I mean, obviously we're still,
812
00:35:19,624 --> 00:35:20,224
we're in this like,
813
00:35:20,544 --> 00:35:22,885
the thing is we're in this weird, messy transition phase
814
00:35:22,885 --> 00:35:24,845
where it's like we still have all this old world legacy,
815
00:35:25,064 --> 00:35:26,064
you know, app, whatever.
816
00:35:26,444 --> 00:35:28,224
And so this is a great way to bootstrap
817
00:35:28,224 --> 00:35:31,064
reputation for identities,
818
00:35:31,244 --> 00:35:31,744
which in the future
819
00:35:31,744 --> 00:35:32,564
could be plugged in anywhere.
820
00:35:32,885 --> 00:35:33,964
And that's been the problem with Nostra.
821
00:35:34,104 --> 00:35:35,865
It's like the system
822
00:35:35,865 --> 00:35:36,885
has always been very clearly
823
00:35:36,885 --> 00:35:37,604
that's where it's headed.
824
00:35:38,004 --> 00:35:39,425
But you need that critical mass.
825
00:35:39,524 --> 00:35:40,944
And like, maybe we kind of got there
826
00:35:40,944 --> 00:35:42,444
on the Bitcoin Twitter clones, maybe.
827
00:35:43,024 --> 00:35:44,524
But this is the real opportunity
828
00:35:44,524 --> 00:35:46,524
I see to get like millions of normies
829
00:35:46,524 --> 00:35:47,604
or let's say millions
830
00:35:47,604 --> 00:35:48,905
of normal software developers.
831
00:35:49,124 --> 00:35:50,484
And that's how you then bootstrap
832
00:35:50,484 --> 00:35:52,705
the future of WhatsApp, Signal, blah, blah, blah.
833
00:35:53,244 --> 00:35:55,444
Another thing to report on here
834
00:35:55,444 --> 00:35:56,544
is just how,
835
00:35:56,544 --> 00:35:59,345
what's the database behind this, right?
836
00:35:59,644 --> 00:36:00,165
There is none.
837
00:36:00,464 --> 00:36:01,185
Well, I mean, right.
838
00:36:02,564 --> 00:36:03,444
Trick question.
839
00:36:03,624 --> 00:36:04,964
No, well, trick question for you.
840
00:36:05,104 --> 00:36:05,964
There is one.
841
00:36:06,124 --> 00:36:06,284
Okay.
842
00:36:07,405 --> 00:36:09,425
But I'm assuming it's run on a spot,
843
00:36:09,624 --> 00:36:11,205
whatever, Blox Relay.
844
00:36:11,644 --> 00:36:12,464
SQL Database.
845
00:36:12,544 --> 00:36:12,724
Okay.
846
00:36:14,365 --> 00:36:15,264
On your Relay?
847
00:36:16,264 --> 00:36:18,925
No, it's a centralized SQL Database at Blox.
848
00:36:19,205 --> 00:36:19,504
Okay.
849
00:36:20,944 --> 00:36:22,144
You interrupted me.
850
00:36:22,224 --> 00:36:23,224
Are you yanking my chain?
851
00:36:23,224 --> 00:36:23,624
No.
852
00:36:23,624 --> 00:36:27,165
No, this is actually, this is a good point to focus on Max.
853
00:36:27,845 --> 00:36:29,004
That's why I wanted to bring it up.
854
00:36:30,784 --> 00:36:36,424
So a really nice thing about Nostr is that it's just an abstraction layer.
855
00:36:36,885 --> 00:36:42,644
So it doesn't require you to use Nostr relays and have a lot of people use Nostr relays.
856
00:36:42,825 --> 00:36:44,964
You can also back it with a SQL database.
857
00:36:44,964 --> 00:36:51,004
So if you're a corporation like Block, for things that are internal to your organization,
858
00:36:51,004 --> 00:36:52,944
don't need to be or shouldn't be public,
859
00:36:53,345 --> 00:36:55,464
you can just use a SQL database as the backend.
860
00:36:55,724 --> 00:36:56,905
And that's exactly what Block does.
861
00:36:58,464 --> 00:37:02,665
But also nice with Nostra is you're not sucked into Block's SQL server.
862
00:37:02,944 --> 00:37:04,524
So you can run your own Nostra relay.
863
00:37:05,165 --> 00:37:06,724
So with the Buzz launch,
864
00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,484
the history here is Block had a SQL database.
865
00:37:09,624 --> 00:37:11,845
That's what they've been using for months and months and months internally.
866
00:37:13,524 --> 00:37:16,044
What we got enabled a few months ago
867
00:37:16,044 --> 00:37:18,905
was creating a Nostra relay
868
00:37:18,905 --> 00:37:21,444
that was permissioned but public.
869
00:37:21,764 --> 00:37:24,644
And that's what Matt and DK and I have been using
870
00:37:24,644 --> 00:37:27,185
and we've been inviting a few people along the way.
871
00:37:27,784 --> 00:37:29,564
That was a Noster relay.
872
00:37:31,385 --> 00:37:31,984
Permissioned.
873
00:37:32,604 --> 00:37:34,524
Permissioned and also block controlled.
874
00:37:35,624 --> 00:37:37,345
But now with the public launch,
875
00:37:37,764 --> 00:37:39,204
there's two options.
876
00:37:39,405 --> 00:37:42,264
One, the easy onboarding, simple,
877
00:37:42,524 --> 00:37:44,224
I don't have to do or configure anything
878
00:37:44,224 --> 00:37:45,084
or pay for anything,
879
00:37:45,444 --> 00:37:47,345
is you just use blocks hosting.
880
00:37:48,185 --> 00:37:50,044
And that's what I'm sure most of the communities are doing.
881
00:37:50,365 --> 00:37:53,624
But you also have the option to run your own Nostrelay or relays.
882
00:37:53,944 --> 00:37:55,204
Your community can run relays,
883
00:37:55,564 --> 00:37:57,165
and then you're completely independent of block,
884
00:37:57,704 --> 00:37:58,385
and they have nothing.
885
00:37:58,665 --> 00:38:00,204
It's all open source, and you don't have to do anything.
886
00:38:00,405 --> 00:38:02,064
There's nothing associated with block at that point.
887
00:38:02,064 --> 00:38:03,825
Maybe this is a minor point, but just to clarify,
888
00:38:03,984 --> 00:38:05,604
when you say you're running a SQL database,
889
00:38:06,024 --> 00:38:09,544
did that have to run in conjunction with a Nostrelay as well, or no?
890
00:38:09,845 --> 00:38:11,484
Like, you could do this with no Nostrelay at all.
891
00:38:12,984 --> 00:38:14,044
Well, no.
892
00:38:14,984 --> 00:38:17,264
I mean, it's still using the Nostrelay protocol.
893
00:38:17,345 --> 00:38:19,524
But the data is stored in a database.
894
00:38:19,524 --> 00:38:21,104
If you think about Max,
895
00:38:21,345 --> 00:38:26,024
the classic Noster is really trying to have
896
00:38:26,024 --> 00:38:27,624
multiple relays get written to
897
00:38:27,624 --> 00:38:28,905
and multiple relays get read from.
898
00:38:29,004 --> 00:38:31,665
And that provides the censorship resistance feature
899
00:38:31,665 --> 00:38:33,764
that you'd want in a social media context.
900
00:38:34,284 --> 00:38:36,345
And this doesn't really need
901
00:38:36,345 --> 00:38:37,784
the censorship resistance feature.
902
00:38:37,925 --> 00:38:40,964
So it's not trying to write to multiple relays.
903
00:38:41,165 --> 00:38:44,484
It's actually just decoupling the client from the server.
904
00:38:45,205 --> 00:38:46,705
So you can run the server, right?
905
00:38:46,705 --> 00:38:49,685
you can run a single SQL database and that's fine.
906
00:38:49,865 --> 00:38:53,185
It can still speak kind of Noster relay protocol.
907
00:38:53,685 --> 00:38:54,464
That's what I was asking.
908
00:38:54,504 --> 00:38:55,644
Writing to a single SQL.
909
00:38:55,804 --> 00:38:55,924
Yeah.
910
00:38:56,325 --> 00:38:57,185
It still has the same.
911
00:38:57,905 --> 00:38:59,185
So it's nice that you actually can,
912
00:38:59,304 --> 00:39:01,084
you can use Noster for the,
913
00:39:01,084 --> 00:39:01,865
you know,
914
00:39:02,144 --> 00:39:04,484
censorship resistance of the messages if you want,
915
00:39:04,564 --> 00:39:06,044
but that's not the core use case here.
916
00:39:06,104 --> 00:39:08,885
The core use case here is just decoupling the client and the server.
917
00:39:09,325 --> 00:39:11,304
And you could actually take the clients in different direction.
918
00:39:11,504 --> 00:39:13,104
Lots of people could take the clients in different directions.
919
00:39:13,385 --> 00:39:14,244
You could run your own server.
920
00:39:14,345 --> 00:39:14,744
It could be private,
921
00:39:14,885 --> 00:39:15,165
commercial,
922
00:39:15,345 --> 00:39:15,584
whatever.
923
00:39:16,024 --> 00:39:16,064
Right.
924
00:39:16,064 --> 00:39:20,064
But the real magic here, and this is what's excited me for so long,
925
00:39:20,124 --> 00:39:24,004
is even if you're in the completely permissioned
926
00:39:24,004 --> 00:39:28,325
block SQL database world, your identity is still user-owned.
927
00:39:28,405 --> 00:39:28,504
Yeah.
928
00:39:29,024 --> 00:39:29,924
And that's magic.
929
00:39:30,804 --> 00:39:34,845
Because now the work or reputation I do to a crew in blocks world
930
00:39:34,845 --> 00:39:36,685
can transfer with me to a new world.
931
00:39:36,685 --> 00:39:36,924
Yep.
932
00:39:37,185 --> 00:39:39,544
So if you start with blocks hosting,
933
00:39:40,325 --> 00:39:44,424
the switching costs to get away from block are dramatically lower
934
00:39:44,424 --> 00:39:47,865
than obviously if you're on Slack or Discord or something like that.
935
00:39:48,024 --> 00:39:48,325
So cool.
936
00:39:48,544 --> 00:39:52,264
So I do think this is like Nostra's moment to shine
937
00:39:52,264 --> 00:39:53,984
like within Silicon Valley
938
00:39:53,984 --> 00:40:00,464
because I think all of us have been skeptical for a long time,
939
00:40:01,004 --> 00:40:02,685
maybe even from the beginning of Nostra,
940
00:40:03,365 --> 00:40:06,185
of these Twitter clones being like the shining example.
941
00:40:06,685 --> 00:40:08,144
I've always been skeptical of that.
942
00:40:11,004 --> 00:40:14,264
But then when BitChat came out a year ago,
943
00:40:14,424 --> 00:40:16,385
or so, that was like an
944
00:40:16,385 --> 00:40:18,104
aha moment. Because it used
945
00:40:18,104 --> 00:40:20,404
Nostra in a way that to end users, they didn't
946
00:40:20,404 --> 00:40:21,825
even really have to know or care.
947
00:40:22,244 --> 00:40:24,365
They didn't have to be like Nostra maxis
948
00:40:24,365 --> 00:40:26,504
to use this app or care about this app
949
00:40:26,504 --> 00:40:28,004
or want to use it. But there was
950
00:40:28,004 --> 00:40:30,264
tangible, real value that
951
00:40:30,264 --> 00:40:32,244
you could communicate that the user got
952
00:40:32,244 --> 00:40:33,404
because Nostra was used.
953
00:40:34,345 --> 00:40:35,764
But I still don't think that was like
954
00:40:35,764 --> 00:40:38,244
Silicon Valley, or Nostra's Silicon
955
00:40:38,244 --> 00:40:40,004
Valley moment, because Silicon Valley
956
00:40:40,004 --> 00:40:42,224
generally doesn't have a need to use BitChat.
957
00:40:42,624 --> 00:40:44,185
Although apparently next week with protests
958
00:40:44,185 --> 00:40:45,244
going on, maybe they will.
959
00:40:46,044 --> 00:40:46,984
Oh, the AI protests?
960
00:40:47,004 --> 00:40:47,484
Yeah, exactly.
961
00:40:47,604 --> 00:40:48,464
The hugging face protests.
962
00:40:48,644 --> 00:40:49,524
Maybe they'll need BitChat.
963
00:40:50,484 --> 00:40:54,264
I doubt the US will shut down that communication.
964
00:40:54,464 --> 00:40:55,764
But obviously, in other parts of the world,
965
00:40:56,144 --> 00:40:57,705
BitChat is getting used.
966
00:40:58,665 --> 00:40:59,764
In fact, the Indian government
967
00:40:59,764 --> 00:41:01,764
just ordered GitHub to take it down
968
00:41:01,764 --> 00:41:02,964
from their website
969
00:41:02,964 --> 00:41:06,224
because India doesn't like BitChat.
970
00:41:06,224 --> 00:41:07,124
That's always a good sign.
971
00:41:07,365 --> 00:41:09,325
So in any case, I think Buzz is
972
00:41:09,325 --> 00:41:11,564
Noster's Silicon Valley moment
973
00:41:11,564 --> 00:41:13,404
because Silicon Valley cares about
974
00:41:13,405 --> 00:41:15,185
cares about Buzz.
975
00:41:15,345 --> 00:41:17,365
They care about Buzz. They're going to use Buzz.
976
00:41:17,504 --> 00:41:19,865
And because they're going to use it, that will be
977
00:41:19,865 --> 00:41:21,624
their first taste of Nostre.
978
00:41:22,064 --> 00:41:23,804
Not Dama's or Primal, not
979
00:41:23,804 --> 00:41:26,004
BitChat, but Buzz will be their first taste
980
00:41:26,004 --> 00:41:28,185
of Nostre. Then they'll realize
981
00:41:28,185 --> 00:41:30,144
oh, yeah, it doesn't get in the way
982
00:41:30,144 --> 00:41:31,825
of using it all, but it has these amazing
983
00:41:31,825 --> 00:41:34,024
properties. And then I think it's going
984
00:41:34,024 --> 00:41:34,905
to flourish.
985
00:41:36,464 --> 00:41:38,004
Another thing that needs to happen though is
986
00:41:38,004 --> 00:41:40,325
a great example
987
00:41:40,325 --> 00:41:41,964
of another application
988
00:41:41,964 --> 00:41:43,865
that's based on Noster
989
00:41:43,865 --> 00:41:45,964
that complements Buzz.
990
00:41:46,624 --> 00:41:49,464
One that appeals to a broader audience,
991
00:41:49,604 --> 00:41:51,264
appeals to the tech community,
992
00:41:51,405 --> 00:41:52,044
AI community.
993
00:41:52,944 --> 00:41:54,885
Someone had that Fortress game,
994
00:41:55,165 --> 00:41:57,665
which is cute and funny and interesting,
995
00:41:57,925 --> 00:42:01,544
but probably not like...
996
00:42:01,544 --> 00:42:02,644
People will see that on Twitter,
997
00:42:02,725 --> 00:42:03,705
but they won't actually use it.
998
00:42:04,544 --> 00:42:05,504
What was the Fortress game?
999
00:42:07,205 --> 00:42:08,705
Oh, you didn't see this?
1000
00:42:08,705 --> 00:42:09,725
I don't think it was.
1001
00:42:10,544 --> 00:42:11,185
Yeah.
1002
00:42:11,964 --> 00:42:13,964
I mean, I'm not even familiar with the game,
1003
00:42:14,084 --> 00:42:15,264
so I'm kind of like,
1004
00:42:15,405 --> 00:42:17,165
DK is a sports media gaming,
1005
00:42:17,325 --> 00:42:18,705
but you guys probably know the game.
1006
00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:19,865
I actually don't play games either.
1007
00:42:20,385 --> 00:42:21,044
But whatever the game,
1008
00:42:21,084 --> 00:42:22,925
I mean, it's just some video game or whatever
1009
00:42:22,925 --> 00:42:26,464
that is Nostra-based,
1010
00:42:26,764 --> 00:42:30,385
and so it's reflecting what's going on in a buzz community.
1011
00:42:30,385 --> 00:42:32,964
So someone, actually someone on the Spiral team,
1012
00:42:33,544 --> 00:42:37,325
tweeted out a screenshot showing the LDK buzz
1013
00:42:37,325 --> 00:42:39,564
in this video game format.
1014
00:42:39,564 --> 00:42:41,944
So each channel was represented in the game.
1015
00:42:42,405 --> 00:42:45,885
And then when people would post messages to Buzz,
1016
00:42:46,685 --> 00:42:51,004
it animated someone looking in a mailbox in this game
1017
00:42:51,004 --> 00:42:52,865
and reading the message, right?
1018
00:42:53,165 --> 00:42:55,984
So definitely a cool demo and example,
1019
00:42:56,244 --> 00:42:58,804
but probably not someone that's going to install
1020
00:42:58,804 --> 00:43:00,004
and use this on a daily basis.
1021
00:43:00,224 --> 00:43:02,764
So we need a Nostra-based app
1022
00:43:02,764 --> 00:43:06,385
that's actually sustainably useful
1023
00:43:06,385 --> 00:43:07,964
that people use
1024
00:43:07,964 --> 00:43:09,705
at the compliments buzz
1025
00:43:09,705 --> 00:43:10,885
and then that'll be
1026
00:43:10,885 --> 00:43:12,845
the nail in the coffin
1027
00:43:12,845 --> 00:43:13,385
in terms of like
1028
00:43:13,385 --> 00:43:14,644
just hammering the point home
1029
00:43:14,644 --> 00:43:15,584
and delivering the value.
1030
00:43:15,924 --> 00:43:17,304
So someone needs to create that.
1031
00:43:17,624 --> 00:43:17,865
And like,
1032
00:43:18,024 --> 00:43:18,564
I mean,
1033
00:43:18,705 --> 00:43:20,424
people in the Nassar community
1034
00:43:20,424 --> 00:43:21,524
should be thinking about this.
1035
00:43:21,524 --> 00:43:22,284
They should be all over this.
1036
00:43:22,304 --> 00:43:23,004
They should be all over this.
1037
00:43:23,185 --> 00:43:23,444
This should be,
1038
00:43:23,604 --> 00:43:23,944
anyone,
1039
00:43:24,205 --> 00:43:24,464
in fact,
1040
00:43:24,665 --> 00:43:25,944
like people we've funded
1041
00:43:25,944 --> 00:43:27,444
in Nassar community.
1042
00:43:27,604 --> 00:43:27,984
I want to like,
1043
00:43:28,044 --> 00:43:28,504
in fact,
1044
00:43:28,604 --> 00:43:29,705
we should send some messages.
1045
00:43:29,964 --> 00:43:30,845
We should send some messages.
1046
00:43:31,205 --> 00:43:31,624
No, bro,
1047
00:43:31,705 --> 00:43:32,325
kick a little ass.
1048
00:43:32,484 --> 00:43:32,524
Like,
1049
00:43:32,524 --> 00:43:33,464
you're right now.
1050
00:43:33,464 --> 00:43:34,385
This is your fucking moment.
1051
00:43:34,644 --> 00:43:35,744
If they don't immediately
1052
00:43:35,744 --> 00:43:38,084
pivot to like building
1053
00:43:38,084 --> 00:43:40,165
and it can even be their existing
1054
00:43:40,165 --> 00:43:42,345
ideas but think about
1055
00:43:42,345 --> 00:43:44,144
it how does it complement Buzz because
1056
00:43:44,144 --> 00:43:46,224
this is the rocket ship to ride. I agree
1057
00:43:46,224 --> 00:43:48,304
wholeheartedly and I do have a ton
1058
00:43:48,304 --> 00:43:50,304
of ideas I'll drop a few now one day
1059
00:43:50,304 --> 00:43:52,345
when I get my agent situation solved I will also
1060
00:43:52,345 --> 00:43:54,325
jump in the mix but some
1061
00:43:54,325 --> 00:43:56,304
free ideas to throw out there immediately I mean
1062
00:43:56,304 --> 00:43:58,345
to me the first extremely obvious one
1063
00:43:58,345 --> 00:43:59,964
is just get people paid right and I know
1064
00:43:59,964 --> 00:44:02,284
Nostra payments are coming
1065
00:44:02,284 --> 00:44:04,264
again another reason I'm so bullish on Nostra Wallet
1066
00:44:04,264 --> 00:44:08,044
connect. Y'all have heard me say this over and over and over again, but I'm going to say it again
1067
00:44:08,044 --> 00:44:13,225
because it is the standard. Like imagine how awesome it'll be when you have a GitHub clone
1068
00:44:13,225 --> 00:44:17,004
and some dude or whatever, like you post some software, just very, very simple. And I just go,
1069
00:44:17,104 --> 00:44:23,584
that's awesome. I'm going to tip you a hundred thousand BTC. Boom. Like that's going to be a
1070
00:44:23,584 --> 00:44:28,205
magic moment for so many Silicon Valley people. Like I think a DK, that guy you had at Founder
1071
00:44:28,205 --> 00:44:32,964
the Socket dude, he's been writing about how do we get open source funded forever? Well, here you
1072
00:44:32,964 --> 00:44:43,837
Here you are homie Here you are Like when that guy logs on here publishes some code and gets tipped Bitcoin there going to be an aha moment for him and all of the open source developers So like that to me is the lowest thing And paying the agents
1073
00:44:44,297 --> 00:44:44,897
And paying the agents.
1074
00:44:45,017 --> 00:44:45,337
I mean, yeah.
1075
00:44:45,497 --> 00:44:46,357
And we've talked about it in the show.
1076
00:44:46,477 --> 00:44:46,757
Yes.
1077
00:44:46,897 --> 00:44:49,436
Matt Belez already integrated a Bitcoin wallet
1078
00:44:49,436 --> 00:44:51,097
a couple months ago into Buzz
1079
00:44:51,097 --> 00:44:53,697
and came up with like a dozen different cool features.
1080
00:44:53,837 --> 00:44:54,137
Love it.
1081
00:44:54,377 --> 00:44:55,537
And then what we've seen this week
1082
00:44:55,537 --> 00:44:57,097
is several different Bitcoin companies
1083
00:44:57,097 --> 00:45:00,357
also vibe coding and adding Bitcoin to Buzz.
1084
00:45:00,357 --> 00:45:02,697
so we're going to get
1085
00:45:02,697 --> 00:45:04,057
Bitcoin into Buzz
1086
00:45:04,057 --> 00:45:05,597
and different communities
1087
00:45:05,597 --> 00:45:06,757
build, install different
1088
00:45:06,757 --> 00:45:07,757
wallet software
1089
00:45:07,757 --> 00:45:08,817
Bitcoin infrastructure
1090
00:45:08,817 --> 00:45:09,577
that they want to do
1091
00:45:09,577 --> 00:45:11,837
and then I think we're going to see
1092
00:45:11,837 --> 00:45:12,977
an explosion of features there.
1093
00:45:12,977 --> 00:45:13,877
Yeah, I mean you could imagine
1094
00:45:13,877 --> 00:45:14,617
I feel like
1095
00:45:14,617 --> 00:45:15,817
you were talking about
1096
00:45:15,817 --> 00:45:17,557
some of these investments
1097
00:45:17,557 --> 00:45:18,377
these angel investments
1098
00:45:18,377 --> 00:45:18,797
we've made
1099
00:45:18,797 --> 00:45:19,797
I almost wonder if
1100
00:45:19,797 --> 00:45:21,697
if just getting them
1101
00:45:21,697 --> 00:45:23,897
in the group chats
1102
00:45:23,897 --> 00:45:24,857
get them in the channels
1103
00:45:24,857 --> 00:45:26,057
where they can work
1104
00:45:26,057 --> 00:45:27,877
kind of in private with us
1105
00:45:27,877 --> 00:45:28,277
right?
1106
00:45:28,777 --> 00:45:29,477
This is the first
1107
00:45:29,477 --> 00:45:31,697
This is the first time in 74 episodes
1108
00:45:31,697 --> 00:45:33,497
Max has pulled his phone out to take a note.
1109
00:45:33,797 --> 00:45:35,517
This is an important moment.
1110
00:45:35,877 --> 00:45:36,837
It's the second time.
1111
00:45:36,917 --> 00:45:37,737
Oh, the second time? Okay.
1112
00:45:38,917 --> 00:45:40,237
Also, Matt Blez just commented,
1113
00:45:40,697 --> 00:45:42,197
I think he's the only person listening today.
1114
00:45:42,497 --> 00:45:43,217
Thanks, Matt.
1115
00:45:43,897 --> 00:45:46,157
He says, yes, Max,
1116
00:45:46,317 --> 00:45:47,837
and you can use that Nostra identity
1117
00:45:47,837 --> 00:45:49,017
to publish to the relay,
1118
00:45:49,317 --> 00:45:51,877
even blocks from outside the relay.
1119
00:45:52,097 --> 00:45:53,277
Prototype this last night.
1120
00:45:53,517 --> 00:45:54,117
I'm so excited.
1121
00:45:55,436 --> 00:45:56,537
I'm so excited for all that.
1122
00:45:56,857 --> 00:45:58,837
I mean, you can imagine, right?
1123
00:45:58,837 --> 00:45:59,936
just some very easy things.
1124
00:46:00,057 --> 00:46:00,977
Like even before the agent,
1125
00:46:01,077 --> 00:46:02,237
I mean, there's so many ideas here,
1126
00:46:02,477 --> 00:46:03,617
but even before the agents,
1127
00:46:04,177 --> 00:46:05,117
perhaps it's a little crude,
1128
00:46:05,177 --> 00:46:05,817
a little tongue in cheek,
1129
00:46:05,897 --> 00:46:06,897
but like, okay, you start,
1130
00:46:06,956 --> 00:46:08,877
you start tipping software that you like
1131
00:46:08,877 --> 00:46:10,456
or anything that you like.
1132
00:46:10,737 --> 00:46:12,017
Imagine a leaderboard,
1133
00:46:12,337 --> 00:46:13,917
you spin up, by the way,
1134
00:46:14,057 --> 00:46:15,377
by the fucking way,
1135
00:46:15,837 --> 00:46:17,617
Insight and Blossom servers.
1136
00:46:18,257 --> 00:46:19,456
This is going to be so cool.
1137
00:46:19,577 --> 00:46:21,097
I've already had my agents
1138
00:46:21,097 --> 00:46:22,977
from my CloudCode work,
1139
00:46:23,037 --> 00:46:23,597
not CloudCode,
1140
00:46:23,657 --> 00:46:24,657
which we'll talk about that in a minute
1141
00:46:24,657 --> 00:46:25,517
because that's super important.
1142
00:46:25,897 --> 00:46:27,936
Spin up for me insights
1143
00:46:27,936 --> 00:46:30,337
that are hosted right now that are not being,
1144
00:46:30,456 --> 00:46:32,737
I'm not paying anyone to host my websites.
1145
00:46:33,317 --> 00:46:36,637
I am publishing them with a Nostra identity
1146
00:46:36,637 --> 00:46:41,277
hosted on Blossom servers along with Nostra relays
1147
00:46:41,277 --> 00:46:41,757
for the lookup.
1148
00:46:41,817 --> 00:46:42,177
That's it.
1149
00:46:42,417 --> 00:46:44,137
So you could imagine, you could just, from the chat,
1150
00:46:44,257 --> 00:46:46,317
have your agent start spinning up these websites for you, right?
1151
00:46:46,317 --> 00:46:48,777
So you could say, okay, take all the software
1152
00:46:48,777 --> 00:46:49,777
that gets published in our chat,
1153
00:46:50,137 --> 00:46:51,477
spin me up a website.
1154
00:46:51,897 --> 00:46:53,357
It'll be even cooler once you can use,
1155
00:46:53,417 --> 00:46:54,297
or you probably could do this,
1156
00:46:54,617 --> 00:46:57,817
MDKs, unhuman.domains to buy domains, okay?
1157
00:46:57,936 --> 00:47:00,477
How is Blossom being paid?
1158
00:47:01,197 --> 00:47:02,617
They're not right now.
1159
00:47:03,577 --> 00:47:06,037
There has to be a business model.
1160
00:47:06,177 --> 00:47:06,557
Of course.
1161
00:47:06,717 --> 00:47:08,157
I'm saying we're still in whatever,
1162
00:47:08,357 --> 00:47:11,097
just altruistic developer for fun.
1163
00:47:11,137 --> 00:47:12,057
I think there actually might even be
1164
00:47:12,057 --> 00:47:13,916
a cash-y paid Blossom site right now.
1165
00:47:14,057 --> 00:47:16,377
I think Buzz is going to be so big so quick
1166
00:47:16,377 --> 00:47:17,997
that there needs to be business models.
1167
00:47:18,077 --> 00:47:18,197
Cool.
1168
00:47:18,377 --> 00:47:18,936
Otherwise...
1169
00:47:19,697 --> 00:47:20,977
The business model, very simple.
1170
00:47:21,197 --> 00:47:22,197
Pay to host, whatever.
1171
00:47:22,637 --> 00:47:23,137
Yeah, for sure.
1172
00:47:23,277 --> 00:47:24,197
Using Bitcoin payments.
1173
00:47:24,277 --> 00:47:25,217
Exactly, Bitcoin payments.
1174
00:47:25,317 --> 00:47:26,157
There's already a cash-y one
1175
00:47:26,157 --> 00:47:27,137
if you want to do it right now.
1176
00:47:27,137 --> 00:47:28,997
And you can imagine just like spin up a leaderboard.
1177
00:47:28,997 --> 00:47:30,337
Cash shoot is, I mean.
1178
00:47:30,537 --> 00:47:31,137
That's what I'm saying.
1179
00:47:31,597 --> 00:47:34,157
It's an implementation detail of Bitcoin payment.
1180
00:47:34,257 --> 00:47:34,577
Exactly.
1181
00:47:34,697 --> 00:47:36,617
So you could do this right now with that server.
1182
00:47:37,037 --> 00:47:42,956
And you could imagine using Nick's unhuman.domains, you know, to have like a leaderboard.
1183
00:47:43,037 --> 00:47:45,117
I can imagine something like justthetip.com.
1184
00:47:47,857 --> 00:47:49,157
Obviously a little crude.
1185
00:47:49,417 --> 00:47:51,017
But you can imagine like it's so fun.
1186
00:47:51,417 --> 00:47:52,777
This is a family friendly podcast.
1187
00:47:52,777 --> 00:47:53,077
Oh yeah.
1188
00:47:53,397 --> 00:47:54,277
I'm so sorry.
1189
00:47:54,277 --> 00:48:02,357
you could all of a sudden start ranking all of the like most tipped software all the most tipped
1190
00:48:02,357 --> 00:48:07,637
whatever you're creating on there and like you could once you once i get access to an agent on
1191
00:48:07,637 --> 00:48:11,017
there you could spin this up super easily you should be like here are the different pieces that
1192
00:48:11,017 --> 00:48:15,877
i need i need this server i need this insight standard and uh this is what i'm going to charge
1193
00:48:15,877 --> 00:48:21,277
boom a business it's going to be amazing i'm super excited and by the way if you are a nostril builder
1194
00:48:21,277 --> 00:48:23,637
we need a Nostra channel on there immediately.
1195
00:48:24,017 --> 00:48:26,197
Someone set that up and we'll start backing up.
1196
00:48:26,557 --> 00:48:31,297
So I saw, let's talk about some of the feedback we saw
1197
00:48:31,297 --> 00:48:32,817
on social media and reactions.
1198
00:48:33,177 --> 00:48:38,217
Again, tons of positive reactions by, you know,
1199
00:48:38,277 --> 00:48:39,936
traditional tech AI folks.
1200
00:48:40,177 --> 00:48:42,817
It wasn't just like just Nostra or Bitcoin people, right?
1201
00:48:42,977 --> 00:48:44,017
In fact, I haven't seen any Nostra people.
1202
00:48:44,017 --> 00:48:44,877
Really nice.
1203
00:48:45,117 --> 00:48:45,797
Yeah, I haven't either.
1204
00:48:45,857 --> 00:48:46,936
Which is like, what the fuck, guys?
1205
00:48:46,956 --> 00:48:47,597
That's weird.
1206
00:48:47,677 --> 00:48:49,436
But anyway, lots of positive reactions.
1207
00:48:49,436 --> 00:48:57,997
Now, several people have pointed out, well, of course, Anthropic and OpenAI are going to fast follow, build the same product.
1208
00:48:58,936 --> 00:49:09,557
And I mean, they either explicitly say this or it's implied that they'll just dominate and buzz will be another thing from Block that just sort of like Block demonstrates innovation, but then it's rolled over.
1209
00:49:09,557 --> 00:49:11,817
I think that's totally false in this case, though.
1210
00:49:12,757 --> 00:49:19,977
And the reason why is because of this is not a solo individual tool.
1211
00:49:20,177 --> 00:49:21,357
It's community-based.
1212
00:49:22,037 --> 00:49:25,456
And when you have a community, particularly open source,
1213
00:49:27,597 --> 00:49:32,877
you can't, it's unrealistic to dictate that they must use a single vendor's models.
1214
00:49:33,617 --> 00:49:37,877
If we form a public community, even a small-sized one,
1215
00:49:37,877 --> 00:49:48,057
The odds of the people in that community all being Anthropic customers exclusively or OpenAI customers exclusively is near zero, right?
1216
00:49:48,557 --> 00:49:53,797
And then in an open source community, there's not a dictator or it's not realistic.
1217
00:49:54,497 --> 00:50:01,936
It's unrealistic to be like, everyone must drop their OpenAI subscription, cancel it, and move to Anthropic.
1218
00:50:01,997 --> 00:50:02,956
That's not realistic.
1219
00:50:02,956 --> 00:50:08,817
You need to have a multi-vendor, multi-model harness.
1220
00:50:09,157 --> 00:50:12,436
And I don't think Anthropic or OpenAI are going to do that,
1221
00:50:12,936 --> 00:50:20,637
where they support other competitive models with just as much tier one type of support.
1222
00:50:20,777 --> 00:50:21,617
What if you want to use Kimi?
1223
00:50:22,677 --> 00:50:23,897
Or OpenModels, right?
1224
00:50:24,077 --> 00:50:29,037
So I don't think, I think they will fast follow and copy.
1225
00:50:29,037 --> 00:50:32,416
they can have success at corporations
1226
00:50:32,416 --> 00:50:33,477
with this type of product
1227
00:50:33,477 --> 00:50:35,257
because a corporation does have a dictator
1228
00:50:35,257 --> 00:50:36,197
called the CEO.
1229
00:50:36,517 --> 00:50:37,297
And the CEO can say,
1230
00:50:37,416 --> 00:50:39,537
every employee has to use Anthropic
1231
00:50:39,537 --> 00:50:41,577
or every employee has to use OpenAI.
1232
00:50:42,777 --> 00:50:44,537
So I do think they could have success
1233
00:50:44,537 --> 00:50:46,737
with this type of product in that situation,
1234
00:50:46,936 --> 00:50:48,057
but not open source.
1235
00:50:48,997 --> 00:50:50,797
And also many companies.
1236
00:50:50,977 --> 00:50:52,177
I mean, many companies don't want to.
1237
00:50:52,297 --> 00:50:54,357
I mean, it's both a short-term
1238
00:50:54,357 --> 00:50:56,737
and long-term misstep, I think,
1239
00:50:56,797 --> 00:50:58,797
to lock yourself into Anthropic or OpenAI.
1240
00:50:59,037 --> 00:50:59,757
Yeah, I agree.
1241
00:51:00,577 --> 00:51:00,936
Long term.
1242
00:51:01,517 --> 00:51:03,436
Generally, you're starting to figure that out, right?
1243
00:51:03,497 --> 00:51:05,177
Like, they're finding out there's a lot of budget.
1244
00:51:05,537 --> 00:51:09,997
Short term is, like, every other month, they're leapfrogging each other, the two frontier models.
1245
00:51:10,097 --> 00:51:13,057
Plus, there's always the potential for others, like Kimmy K3 or whatever.
1246
00:51:13,637 --> 00:51:21,217
So the last thing you want to do as a CEO of a company is lock yourself into one vendor when next month you want to be using the best and you can't.
1247
00:51:21,217 --> 00:51:26,936
But long term, of course, you don't want to be locked into one vendor because they'll just completely own you and take all your margins from you.
1248
00:51:26,936 --> 00:51:29,077
And even if you are super bullish,
1249
00:51:29,177 --> 00:51:31,477
I'm extremely still bullish on Anthropic and whatever,
1250
00:51:32,817 --> 00:51:35,217
if you're a company and you're still already using
1251
00:51:35,217 --> 00:51:37,557
open source models even to do any of your tasks,
1252
00:51:37,617 --> 00:51:38,577
even if you're like, okay, whatever,
1253
00:51:38,757 --> 00:51:40,917
the most cutting-edge stuff we're going to route to Anthropic,
1254
00:51:41,397 --> 00:51:43,337
but customer service is going to be done
1255
00:51:43,337 --> 00:51:45,857
in an open source model, you need some way to interop.
1256
00:51:46,037 --> 00:51:48,337
And by the way, interoperability is the whole magic of this.
1257
00:51:48,537 --> 00:51:51,657
And so I'm curious, I doubt it,
1258
00:51:51,697 --> 00:51:53,877
I'm curious if OpenAI and Anthropic
1259
00:51:53,877 --> 00:51:56,197
would copy the Nostra piece and make that interoperable.
1260
00:51:56,197 --> 00:51:56,757
I doubt it.
1261
00:51:56,936 --> 00:51:57,517
I doubt it.
1262
00:51:58,157 --> 00:51:58,277
Yep.
1263
00:51:58,577 --> 00:52:00,057
So that's yet another thing that,
1264
00:52:00,717 --> 00:52:02,857
like we're skeptical that they would support
1265
00:52:02,857 --> 00:52:04,397
every model tier one.
1266
00:52:04,557 --> 00:52:06,357
We're also skeptical of what you just said.
1267
00:52:06,417 --> 00:52:06,977
I agree.
1268
00:52:07,557 --> 00:52:09,317
I replied to everyone I saw on Twitter
1269
00:52:09,317 --> 00:52:10,657
talking about this,
1270
00:52:11,037 --> 00:52:13,337
you know, asking questions
1271
00:52:13,337 --> 00:52:14,657
and no one's replied yet.
1272
00:52:15,037 --> 00:52:16,956
And one of our listeners right now too,
1273
00:52:17,617 --> 00:52:20,297
Matt, has also been debating with me
1274
00:52:20,297 --> 00:52:23,477
and I don't know exactly what his real position is,
1275
00:52:23,537 --> 00:52:24,897
but he's taken the position of
1276
00:52:24,897 --> 00:52:26,717
OpenAI and Anthropoc
1277
00:52:26,936 --> 00:52:28,396
being able to be successful at this.
1278
00:52:28,617 --> 00:52:30,416
And I don't know, I've not found,
1279
00:52:30,837 --> 00:52:32,877
I generally find Matt to have very persuasive arguments,
1280
00:52:33,037 --> 00:52:34,657
but in this case, I don't.
1281
00:52:34,757 --> 00:52:37,317
The only way I see them,
1282
00:52:37,436 --> 00:52:38,317
I do think they'll fast follow.
1283
00:52:38,436 --> 00:52:39,396
I think they'll have this product
1284
00:52:39,396 --> 00:52:41,277
and I think they'll have success with it
1285
00:52:41,277 --> 00:52:42,657
within some corporations
1286
00:52:42,657 --> 00:52:45,037
or the corporations that go all in on the vendors.
1287
00:52:45,317 --> 00:52:46,497
But I don't see them being,
1288
00:52:46,697 --> 00:52:49,037
I think it's like near 0% probability of success
1289
00:52:49,037 --> 00:52:50,357
outside of that narrow scope.
1290
00:52:50,456 --> 00:52:52,277
I think the number one way for this to be successful
1291
00:52:52,277 --> 00:52:54,537
besides open source projects and their operability
1292
00:52:54,537 --> 00:52:56,137
is autonomous agents, full stop.
1293
00:52:56,936 --> 00:53:00,477
Full stop. And this is the thing I keep coming back to over and over again. Bitcoin's going to
1294
00:53:00,477 --> 00:53:04,737
have its moment. Nostra's going to have its true take over the world moment once there's autonomous
1295
00:53:04,737 --> 00:53:08,257
agents because there's no way, whatever, we're already saying, I'm sure we'll talk more about
1296
00:53:08,257 --> 00:53:12,416
this, companies getting afraid of the autonomous agents breaking out. The point of something like
1297
00:53:12,416 --> 00:53:16,337
this is for autonomous agents to rise. So I think that's when we're going to see this go super,
1298
00:53:16,416 --> 00:53:21,577
super mainstream. Yeah. I do have some other feedback. I just want to share it. Well, I don't
1299
00:53:21,577 --> 00:53:25,237
know, DK, if you have another point about that. Well, yeah. I was going to say, I think some of
1300
00:53:25,237 --> 00:53:30,737
your experience in the last couple hours with sort of how you were having some tough time getting
1301
00:53:30,737 --> 00:53:36,997
started, I think it actually also points to some of the uses of Matt's kind of pirate build and
1302
00:53:36,997 --> 00:53:41,817
sort of uses of Bitcoin that could really sort of alleviate some of that onboarding pain that
1303
00:53:41,817 --> 00:53:46,857
you experienced. So I wonder if it's productive to kind of explore what you, because I don't even
1304
00:53:46,857 --> 00:53:51,217
know if Steve is aware of your last couple hours experience. You got to go watch me in the chat.
1305
00:53:51,217 --> 00:53:53,337
but I double down and feel very strongly
1306
00:53:53,337 --> 00:53:54,237
about a few things in here.
1307
00:53:54,396 --> 00:53:56,817
So it's awesome to watch.
1308
00:53:57,337 --> 00:53:59,577
The problem is right now, for me at least,
1309
00:53:59,757 --> 00:54:00,717
is, I mean, there's two things.
1310
00:54:00,837 --> 00:54:03,017
One, agents, as far as I can tell,
1311
00:54:03,097 --> 00:54:04,017
unless I'm missing something,
1312
00:54:04,117 --> 00:54:06,077
are still tied to humans.
1313
00:54:06,517 --> 00:54:08,317
And eventually this thing really gets magic
1314
00:54:08,317 --> 00:54:09,617
when agents are not tied to humans.
1315
00:54:09,657 --> 00:54:10,617
They're tied to organizations,
1316
00:54:10,797 --> 00:54:11,737
they're tied to groups of humans,
1317
00:54:11,857 --> 00:54:13,157
or they're tied to no one.
1318
00:54:13,396 --> 00:54:14,936
That's when this thing gets super, super magic.
1319
00:54:15,237 --> 00:54:16,297
So the problem that I have,
1320
00:54:16,396 --> 00:54:17,456
just to give everyone in the audience
1321
00:54:17,456 --> 00:54:18,217
a little bit of background,
1322
00:54:18,217 --> 00:54:21,017
is I can't add an agent yet.
1323
00:54:21,217 --> 00:54:26,277
The reason I can't add an agent is because I have a max plan with Claude.
1324
00:54:26,277 --> 00:54:28,936
I don't want to install Claude code on my personal machine
1325
00:54:28,936 --> 00:54:33,817
because we already saw an agent break free in the last 48 hours.
1326
00:54:33,916 --> 00:54:34,497
I'm just not going to do that.
1327
00:54:34,497 --> 00:54:39,557
And we saw Grok hoover up everyone's local data into the cloud.
1328
00:54:39,717 --> 00:54:39,956
Seriously?
1329
00:54:40,537 --> 00:54:41,416
Yeah, I didn't see that.
1330
00:54:42,077 --> 00:54:42,177
Yeah.
1331
00:54:42,277 --> 00:54:44,117
Okay, so I feel more vindicated.
1332
00:54:44,677 --> 00:54:46,037
There's a 0% chance I'm doing that.
1333
00:54:46,117 --> 00:54:46,737
That's off the table.
1334
00:54:47,097 --> 00:54:48,517
Now, so my options then become,
1335
00:54:48,717 --> 00:54:50,657
I can go and get a personal machine to do this.
1336
00:54:50,657 --> 00:54:53,357
I will eventually, but that's just like friction, effort, blah, blah.
1337
00:54:54,077 --> 00:54:56,416
I can figure out how to run this in the cloud and maybe I'll do that.
1338
00:54:56,517 --> 00:54:57,597
Maybe that'll be like a weekend project.
1339
00:54:57,677 --> 00:54:57,936
We'll see.
1340
00:54:58,997 --> 00:55:02,297
But, you know, the onboarding right now is like add an API key.
1341
00:55:02,637 --> 00:55:07,357
I can't add an API key with my cloud subscription that would allow me to use the subscription
1342
00:55:07,357 --> 00:55:12,037
and not add additional whatever payments from cloud, which I imagine that's just going to
1343
00:55:12,037 --> 00:55:13,837
burn through them and be super, super expensive.
1344
00:55:13,997 --> 00:55:14,717
And like, I don't want to do that.
1345
00:55:15,037 --> 00:55:19,757
So what I want though is when I got on the channel, the frustrating thing is if you don't
1346
00:55:19,757 --> 00:55:21,877
already have an agent. And most people, and I know
1347
00:55:21,877 --> 00:55:23,877
Steve, you were a little funny with
1348
00:55:23,877 --> 00:55:25,777
me yesterday. To use agentic software, you need an agent?
1349
00:55:25,936 --> 00:55:27,817
Fair. But if you want this to go
1350
00:55:27,817 --> 00:55:29,956
super mainstream, that's going to be a big barrier
1351
00:55:29,956 --> 00:55:31,777
for most people. Most people still haven't even used
1352
00:55:31,777 --> 00:55:33,817
Cloud or OpenAI or barely. And if
1353
00:55:33,817 --> 00:55:35,877
they have, it's probably on the web or Cloud
1354
00:55:35,877 --> 00:55:38,037
Co-Work or something like that. Don't they have like a billion users?
1355
00:55:38,497 --> 00:55:39,936
Yeah, but that's like the web, like chat.
1356
00:55:40,077 --> 00:55:41,817
Let's say they haven't used the agentic functions
1357
00:55:41,817 --> 00:55:43,797
yet. And so, you know,
1358
00:55:43,897 --> 00:55:45,737
finding a way to smoothly get those
1359
00:55:45,737 --> 00:55:47,817
people in is important if you want this to
1360
00:55:47,817 --> 00:55:49,737
go through. I think
1361
00:55:49,757 --> 00:55:51,977
most, or I should,
1362
00:55:52,317 --> 00:55:56,956
there's a lot of adoption by builders.
1363
00:55:57,097 --> 00:55:58,436
Yeah, that's fair,
1364
00:55:58,537 --> 00:55:59,717
and that's a great place to start.
1365
00:56:00,137 --> 00:56:01,257
What's your take, DK?
1366
00:56:01,397 --> 00:56:03,497
I mean, if you look at builders,
1367
00:56:03,617 --> 00:56:05,416
do you think a lot of them
1368
00:56:05,416 --> 00:56:07,037
have CloudCoder codex installed?
1369
00:56:08,057 --> 00:56:08,197
I'm sure.
1370
00:56:08,197 --> 00:56:09,537
Yeah, builders, yes,
1371
00:56:09,617 --> 00:56:11,617
but as a percent of people
1372
00:56:11,617 --> 00:56:13,577
who have Anthropic paid accounts,
1373
00:56:13,637 --> 00:56:14,577
I think it's very small.
1374
00:56:14,837 --> 00:56:15,337
I agree.
1375
00:56:16,157 --> 00:56:17,157
I agree.
1376
00:56:17,157 --> 00:56:22,517
And like buzz is interesting for people who are building.
1377
00:56:22,737 --> 00:56:23,497
Yeah, agreed.
1378
00:56:23,797 --> 00:56:25,697
Communities that are building, projects that are building.
1379
00:56:25,817 --> 00:56:26,157
And I agree.
1380
00:56:26,277 --> 00:56:27,337
So that's a great place to start.
1381
00:56:27,337 --> 00:56:31,077
But I think with a few minor tweaks,
1382
00:56:31,217 --> 00:56:33,597
you could like 100x the number of people that could play with this
1383
00:56:33,597 --> 00:56:34,876
and become builders very easily.
1384
00:56:35,477 --> 00:56:38,237
So the challenge that I have is I joined the channel
1385
00:56:38,237 --> 00:56:39,617
for a variety of reasons.
1386
00:56:39,777 --> 00:56:41,197
I can't get an agent spun up.
1387
00:56:41,817 --> 00:56:44,057
I will eventually, but whatever, that's a lot of friction.
1388
00:56:44,876 --> 00:56:47,137
What I want to be...
1389
00:56:47,157 --> 00:56:51,737
You're unwilling to run Cloud Code locally, which is okay, but that's why.
1390
00:56:51,757 --> 00:56:52,157
That's a choice.
1391
00:56:52,357 --> 00:56:55,037
And you're unwilling to pay for an API key.
1392
00:56:56,017 --> 00:56:57,956
Yeah, and I could pay for an API key.
1393
00:56:58,137 --> 00:57:00,157
I guess, I mean, maybe I'll do that just to...
1394
00:57:00,157 --> 00:57:03,217
But just to clarify, I think if you put five bucks into OpenRouter,
1395
00:57:03,517 --> 00:57:06,357
that would solve your problem and unstick you without the weekend project.
1396
00:57:06,717 --> 00:57:09,297
Yeah, so your OpenRouter suggestion was good this morning.
1397
00:57:09,357 --> 00:57:10,177
I had not considered that.
1398
00:57:10,177 --> 00:57:14,577
I haven't looked at if you can plug an OpenRouter API key into, but I assume you can.
1399
00:57:14,577 --> 00:57:16,477
I was originally in Anthropic
1400
00:57:16,477 --> 00:57:18,936
and I thought they would just burn my money super fast.
1401
00:57:19,077 --> 00:57:20,537
Open router is nice because I could route
1402
00:57:20,537 --> 00:57:22,077
to the cheapest model, I assume.
1403
00:57:22,997 --> 00:57:23,936
Where did you draw the line?
1404
00:57:24,837 --> 00:57:26,017
You've installed Buzz.
1405
00:57:26,617 --> 00:57:27,337
I've installed Buzz, yes.
1406
00:57:27,697 --> 00:57:30,396
You are comfortable installing
1407
00:57:30,396 --> 00:57:32,017
software.
1408
00:57:33,697 --> 00:57:34,577
Buzz is like a
1409
00:57:34,577 --> 00:57:35,797
vibe-coded app
1410
00:57:35,797 --> 00:57:37,837
that you've installed on your computer.
1411
00:57:38,157 --> 00:57:40,057
And you're very security conscious.
1412
00:57:40,257 --> 00:57:42,277
But my assumption with that,
1413
00:57:42,277 --> 00:57:43,297
and maybe I should install this
1414
00:57:43,297 --> 00:57:45,297
off this podcast. My assumption
1415
00:57:45,297 --> 00:57:47,577
was quad code
1416
00:57:47,577 --> 00:57:49,477
can go and actually like, I don't
1417
00:57:49,477 --> 00:57:51,377
know, start reading and writing access to
1418
00:57:51,377 --> 00:57:53,416
other folders on the computer. You can give it
1419
00:57:53,416 --> 00:57:54,777
access to do that, but that's
1420
00:57:54,777 --> 00:57:56,637
I'm assuming you can't do that.
1421
00:57:58,097 --> 00:57:59,297
Yeah, but let's put it this way.
1422
00:57:59,297 --> 00:58:01,177
If you give it access,
1423
00:58:01,377 --> 00:58:03,657
it can. Let's assume
1424
00:58:03,657 --> 00:58:05,537
that... But installing native software
1425
00:58:05,537 --> 00:58:06,777
is dangerous still.
1426
00:58:07,057 --> 00:58:08,537
I mean, like Zoom,
1427
00:58:09,257 --> 00:58:11,097
people installing Zoom is opening up
1428
00:58:11,097 --> 00:58:13,097
HTTP servers and like
1429
00:58:13,297 --> 00:58:17,857
connection remote connections all fair points and obviously it's a spectrum i guess i mean max
1430
00:58:17,857 --> 00:58:25,377
do you use a password manager that's also client software my point is that these models have the
1431
00:58:25,377 --> 00:58:31,637
capability to break free i don't think buzz i mean yes i understand there's always some risk that
1432
00:58:31,637 --> 00:58:35,377
there's something nefarious in there but i don't think buzz has that capability is that true or
1433
00:58:35,377 --> 00:58:43,337
like am i missing something i would say you have a a certain mental model that segregates things
1434
00:58:43,337 --> 00:58:49,177
in a way that's not consistent with reality why so so just by installing buzz you're suggesting
1435
00:58:49,177 --> 00:58:54,416
that one of those agents could actually get to like my directory well i think we're saying like
1436
00:58:54,416 --> 00:59:01,916
running or running anything on the client software it can do basically anything there could be
1437
00:59:01,916 --> 00:59:02,916
malware in there.
1438
00:59:02,916 --> 00:59:06,416
There could be malware, and so I'm like, I'm also taking a leap of trust.
1439
00:59:06,416 --> 00:59:11,577
Like Steve, Matt, and the crew at Block is probably not doing that, certainly not on
1440
00:59:11,577 --> 00:59:12,577
purpose.
1441
00:59:12,577 --> 00:59:18,477
Whereas with Cloud Code, I feel like this like super smart Fable model could break free,
1442
00:59:18,477 --> 00:59:20,416
and I don't know, and I don't trust it.
1443
00:59:20,416 --> 00:59:23,557
But the Fable model is not running on your computer.
1444
00:59:23,557 --> 00:59:27,637
So could the agent software do nefarious things on your computer?
1445
00:59:27,637 --> 00:59:28,637
Yes.
1446
00:59:28,637 --> 00:59:30,137
Could Buzz do nefarious things on your computer?
1447
00:59:30,137 --> 00:59:31,357
Yes.
1448
00:59:31,409 --> 00:59:32,429
Do Nefarious things in a computer?
1449
00:59:32,549 --> 00:59:32,829
Yes.
1450
00:59:32,969 --> 00:59:35,169
Are you saying you think it's the same amount of risk
1451
00:59:35,169 --> 00:59:36,589
to have CloudCode running locally
1452
00:59:36,589 --> 00:59:37,729
as it is to download Buzz?
1453
00:59:38,029 --> 00:59:41,629
Well, I think if you run CloudCode with...
1454
00:59:41,629 --> 00:59:41,989
Go ahead.
1455
00:59:42,069 --> 00:59:42,269
Go ahead.
1456
00:59:42,889 --> 00:59:43,429
Well, I was just going to say,
1457
00:59:43,489 --> 00:59:44,889
you can have a set of,
1458
00:59:45,089 --> 00:59:47,169
a bunch of settings around CloudCode,
1459
00:59:47,249 --> 00:59:48,429
around what it's allowed to read from,
1460
00:59:48,489 --> 00:59:49,609
what it's allowed to write to.
1461
00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:51,309
And you can say, look,
1462
00:59:51,409 --> 00:59:53,689
I don't trust that it's going to respect those settings.
1463
00:59:54,089 --> 00:59:54,349
Fair.
1464
00:59:54,809 --> 00:59:56,349
I would guess that it could...
1465
00:59:56,349 --> 00:59:56,509
That's my position.
1466
00:59:57,529 --> 01:00:00,169
And I don't think that's any...
1467
01:00:00,169 --> 01:00:03,169
I don't think that's any more valid position to take
1468
01:00:03,169 --> 01:00:05,009
than saying that, you know,
1469
01:00:05,029 --> 01:00:08,069
you think Buzz is fine to have on your computer,
1470
01:00:08,069 --> 01:00:10,169
but is otherwise not going to respect your settings.
1471
01:00:10,169 --> 01:00:11,829
Like it's client software.
1472
01:00:11,969 --> 01:00:13,109
Like there's, there can be problems,
1473
01:00:13,149 --> 01:00:14,289
there can be bugs, there can be.
1474
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:15,469
But one of them,
1475
01:00:15,569 --> 01:00:17,729
one of them is like a super genius in a data center.
1476
01:00:17,969 --> 01:00:18,429
One of them is.
1477
01:00:18,449 --> 01:00:18,809
No, no, no.
1478
01:00:18,809 --> 01:00:23,929
But Fable is a model that your harness of cloud code can call,
1479
01:00:24,029 --> 01:00:25,509
but you can actually have cloud code.
1480
01:00:25,689 --> 01:00:27,609
They built cloud code with settings.
1481
01:00:27,609 --> 01:00:29,509
So you can set the settings up
1482
01:00:29,509 --> 01:00:31,489
so that it can't read or write from,
1483
01:00:31,629 --> 01:00:33,109
or is only allowed to read or write
1484
01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:34,889
from certain places on your computer.
1485
01:00:35,029 --> 01:00:36,089
And it's unlikely that the model
1486
01:00:36,089 --> 01:00:37,509
is going to be able to override that.
1487
01:00:37,629 --> 01:00:38,789
There could be bugs in the software,
1488
01:00:38,929 --> 01:00:41,029
but it's unlikely the model can just break free.
1489
01:00:41,149 --> 01:00:41,949
That's kind of a-
1490
01:00:41,949 --> 01:00:44,789
I just saw that happen in the last 36 hours.
1491
01:00:44,929 --> 01:00:47,309
So anyways, regardless, I get your point,
1492
01:00:47,469 --> 01:00:49,369
but let me make my broader point,
1493
01:00:49,429 --> 01:00:50,189
which I think is more important.
1494
01:00:50,509 --> 01:00:52,369
Even assume that there's a user that,
1495
01:00:52,529 --> 01:00:53,769
for whatever reason, they're just like,
1496
01:00:54,349 --> 01:00:55,629
a normie that wants to build,
1497
01:00:55,789 --> 01:00:57,249
they've got a ChatGPT subscription,
1498
01:00:57,609 --> 01:00:58,569
and they think this is cool,
1499
01:00:58,569 --> 01:00:59,329
they want to play,
1500
01:00:59,509 --> 01:01:00,369
They haven't set up an agent.
1501
01:01:00,909 --> 01:01:02,189
They just want to be a part of this.
1502
01:01:02,709 --> 01:01:05,789
I assume there's 100x more than the builders we have today.
1503
01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:08,589
So what I would like to see is,
1504
01:01:08,689 --> 01:01:10,549
and I think the magic moment that's missing,
1505
01:01:10,649 --> 01:01:12,469
and I was talking with this, and thank you to Povolnex.
1506
01:01:12,509 --> 01:01:13,709
He gave me access to one of his agents.
1507
01:01:13,709 --> 01:01:15,529
You guys both put agents in a chat as well,
1508
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:17,129
though I'm still waiting to get access on that.
1509
01:01:17,629 --> 01:01:19,489
Does he understand the risks he's taking?
1510
01:01:19,949 --> 01:01:20,349
Povolnex?
1511
01:01:20,509 --> 01:01:20,689
Yeah.
1512
01:01:21,169 --> 01:01:23,689
Well, he told me not to nuke his computer, so yeah, he does.
1513
01:01:23,689 --> 01:01:26,049
but my
1514
01:01:26,049 --> 01:01:29,569
what I think you know you need is
1515
01:01:29,569 --> 01:01:31,689
and he said this as well it took a couple days to get everything up
1516
01:01:31,689 --> 01:01:34,029
and figured out is if you can have
1517
01:01:34,029 --> 01:01:35,309
some agent
1518
01:01:35,309 --> 01:01:37,849
greet you and you can call that
1519
01:01:37,849 --> 01:01:39,789
agent and do something anything out
1520
01:01:39,789 --> 01:01:41,749
of the box that magic moment is
1521
01:01:41,749 --> 01:01:43,729
so powerful that then you're willing to go
1522
01:01:43,729 --> 01:01:45,489
through the pain of figuring out where's my
1523
01:01:45,489 --> 01:01:47,709
the schlep of the API keys and all
1524
01:01:47,709 --> 01:01:49,749
this stuff and by the way so I
1525
01:01:49,749 --> 01:01:51,549
think there's two ways to do this I want to double down on this
1526
01:01:51,549 --> 01:01:55,789
Block could run one of these and just eat the cost for a certain number of people just to get
1527
01:01:55,789 --> 01:01:59,729
started, just so you could see the magic moment. But then beyond that, what would be even more
1528
01:01:59,729 --> 01:02:05,389
amazing, what I really want to see is, okay, there's a marketplace of these. And everyone
1529
01:02:05,389 --> 01:02:10,809
can just say, you can use my thing for cost. And all I have to do is scan a cash app QR code or
1530
01:02:10,809 --> 01:02:16,649
make a Bitcoin payment or cash payment or whatever. And like, okay, I'll pay $1 so I can see this
1531
01:02:16,649 --> 01:02:21,509
like nostril idea that I have get built to me. And I hope that these guys are listening. I haven't
1532
01:02:21,509 --> 01:02:26,589
seen Nick in here in a while, but the magic moment when we were all building with Ori in
1533
01:02:26,589 --> 01:02:32,049
signal and telegram RIP, um, was I could just hop in the chat and I just get my ideas. Like I could
1534
01:02:32,049 --> 01:02:36,389
just start speaking censorship. I could start speaking ideas. I could see them getting built.
1535
01:02:36,389 --> 01:02:41,109
And then I was hooked. And once I was hooked and I had my first website, okay, now I'm willing to
1536
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:46,529
go do the lift and figure all the crap that I don't want to do out. So if there's a way for
1537
01:02:46,529 --> 01:02:48,289
either the marketplace idea
1538
01:02:48,289 --> 01:02:49,309
or someone just to host
1539
01:02:49,309 --> 01:02:50,389
like a welcome bot
1540
01:02:50,389 --> 01:02:51,369
like Nick did with Ori,
1541
01:02:51,809 --> 01:02:53,029
I think that would change
1542
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:53,869
the onboarding experience.
1543
01:02:54,189 --> 01:02:55,149
Yeah, I think your feedback
1544
01:02:55,149 --> 01:02:55,849
is super valuable.
1545
01:02:56,029 --> 01:02:57,029
I mean, just for context,
1546
01:02:57,649 --> 01:02:58,949
the Buzz team is small
1547
01:02:58,949 --> 01:03:01,049
and moving with insane velocity.
1548
01:03:01,289 --> 01:03:02,529
And even the onboarding
1549
01:03:02,529 --> 01:03:03,609
that exists today
1550
01:03:03,609 --> 01:03:05,649
didn't exist like 10 days ago.
1551
01:03:05,769 --> 01:03:05,929
Oh, I know.
1552
01:03:06,029 --> 01:03:08,169
It was all added
1553
01:03:08,169 --> 01:03:09,969
like last weekend.
1554
01:03:10,649 --> 01:03:12,609
So it's early days.
1555
01:03:13,249 --> 01:03:15,629
No, it's valid.
1556
01:03:15,629 --> 01:03:17,129
I mean, it's valid feedback, for sure.
1557
01:03:17,649 --> 01:03:22,149
I'm just saying that it's not like all possibilities have been exhausted
1558
01:03:22,149 --> 01:03:23,749
and this is the best that Buzz can do.
1559
01:03:24,169 --> 01:03:27,089
It's like the bare minimum was added last weekend,
1560
01:03:27,269 --> 01:03:29,709
and it's much better than it was a week ago.
1561
01:03:30,749 --> 01:03:32,989
And all your ideas are good ones.
1562
01:03:33,349 --> 01:03:38,349
I also think, though, that some other things we've talked about
1563
01:03:38,349 --> 01:03:43,789
is just observing other people is a great way to feel the magic
1564
01:03:43,789 --> 01:03:46,289
and learn and motivate you to do the same as well.
1565
01:03:46,729 --> 01:03:48,149
So in any given community,
1566
01:03:48,509 --> 01:03:51,389
all it takes is just one person
1567
01:03:51,389 --> 01:03:54,109
or a couple people along with some agents
1568
01:03:54,109 --> 01:03:57,249
to work the magic and be a live demonstration
1569
01:03:57,249 --> 01:03:59,609
that's relatable to the other people in that community
1570
01:03:59,609 --> 01:04:01,569
because presumably if you're in the community,
1571
01:04:01,909 --> 01:04:03,969
even if you're new, you know the other people
1572
01:04:03,969 --> 01:04:06,889
or you know the topic at hand.
1573
01:04:07,529 --> 01:04:09,569
I think that'll just continue to convert people
1574
01:04:09,569 --> 01:04:10,969
and then all of a sudden you get converted,
1575
01:04:11,309 --> 01:04:13,009
you start participating more in that community
1576
01:04:13,009 --> 01:04:13,529
and then you're like,
1577
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:15,129
oh, I have another community idea.
1578
01:04:15,329 --> 01:04:17,229
You create the next community
1579
01:04:17,229 --> 01:04:18,209
and then you're the champion
1580
01:04:18,209 --> 01:04:18,729
of that community
1581
01:04:18,729 --> 01:04:19,249
because you learned
1582
01:04:19,249 --> 01:04:20,029
from the previous one.
1583
01:04:20,409 --> 01:04:21,109
I think we're going to see
1584
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:21,869
that play out
1585
01:04:21,869 --> 01:04:23,229
over the coming weeks
1586
01:04:23,229 --> 01:04:23,729
and months.
1587
01:04:23,969 --> 01:04:24,429
And to be clear,
1588
01:04:24,589 --> 01:04:25,609
Pavlonek did a great job
1589
01:04:25,609 --> 01:04:26,189
of that this morning.
1590
01:04:26,309 --> 01:04:27,509
I asked for gifts
1591
01:04:27,509 --> 01:04:29,249
and he spun up a channel
1592
01:04:29,249 --> 01:04:31,129
with his agent that did that.
1593
01:04:31,209 --> 01:04:31,849
I was like, oh, that's dope.
1594
01:04:31,969 --> 01:04:32,969
He's a great example.
1595
01:04:33,249 --> 01:04:33,829
Like a week ago,
1596
01:04:33,909 --> 01:04:34,869
he'd never used it before.
1597
01:04:35,069 --> 01:04:36,989
He was instantly skeptical of it
1598
01:04:36,989 --> 01:04:37,669
and he's like,
1599
01:04:37,709 --> 01:04:38,549
I don't really get it.
1600
01:04:38,929 --> 01:04:40,629
And then now he's like a power user
1601
01:04:40,629 --> 01:04:41,689
and he's like one of the best.
1602
01:04:41,689 --> 01:04:42,209
He's onboarding.
1603
01:04:42,209 --> 01:04:46,869
He's one of the best demonstrators of the power of Buzz, and that's all inside one week.
1604
01:04:47,069 --> 01:04:49,169
So we're going to see many people like him.
1605
01:04:49,169 --> 01:04:54,229
And I think whenever you see people like him do something, you have the opportunity to learn a new way.
1606
01:04:54,329 --> 01:05:01,389
Because I've been using this for months at this point, but I've never done that thing which he did where you asked about, hey, how do I add GIFs?
1607
01:05:01,749 --> 01:05:03,549
And he spun up a channel real time.
1608
01:05:04,169 --> 01:05:05,409
DK told me to add a PR.
1609
01:05:05,409 --> 01:05:12,129
he added but he he spun up the channel and added us as observers in the channel and put the agent
1610
01:05:12,129 --> 01:05:17,769
to work and i never i understand that that's kind of a common thing in some buzz culture to like just
1611
01:05:17,769 --> 01:05:21,829
sort of spin up a channel to work on a feature but i've never done that style of usage so i think
1612
01:05:21,829 --> 01:05:26,649
just by like being sort of an observer first and watching other people how they're building and
1613
01:05:26,649 --> 01:05:31,569
then figuring out how to like where to spin up channels when to call agents how to prompt agents
1614
01:05:31,569 --> 01:05:35,649
I've been tweeting about like the personas that I'm using to prompt agents so I think there's all
1615
01:05:35,649 --> 01:05:40,169
kinds of stuff that you can learn just by seeing how other people are doing it you can like adopt
1616
01:05:40,169 --> 01:05:44,669
it or riff on it or take it in your own direction I think just like observing other people doing
1617
01:05:44,669 --> 01:05:49,349
stuff is part of the magic of what makes buzz work just to highlight a couple things he did
1618
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:57,209
in the span of hours um is that he uh he contributes to the stratum v2 reference implementation
1619
01:05:57,209 --> 01:06:01,549
project. He's not a developer, but
1620
01:06:01,549 --> 01:06:05,149
with the use of AI tools, he can be super productive in building.
1621
01:06:07,149 --> 01:06:09,529
And so, yeah, I think he has a background doing
1622
01:06:09,529 --> 01:06:12,949
VibeCoding and building with AI tools, but he's new to Buzz.
1623
01:06:13,429 --> 01:06:16,809
Within hours, he spun up a couple projects with Stratum B2. One,
1624
01:06:17,309 --> 01:06:21,169
he integrated Stratum B2 with Proto's
1625
01:06:21,169 --> 01:06:24,989
open source fleet management software. Oh, really? And integrated it into
1626
01:06:24,989 --> 01:06:26,109
into Fleet.
1627
01:06:26,329 --> 01:06:26,769
Sick.
1628
01:06:27,009 --> 01:06:28,169
And then posted,
1629
01:06:28,449 --> 01:06:30,369
had the AI post videos
1630
01:06:30,369 --> 01:06:32,129
of a demo
1631
01:06:32,129 --> 01:06:33,769
to Buzz.
1632
01:06:34,149 --> 01:06:34,989
And then he built
1633
01:06:34,989 --> 01:06:36,389
a benchmarking application
1634
01:06:36,389 --> 01:06:37,429
for Stratum v2
1635
01:06:37,429 --> 01:06:38,209
that works across
1636
01:06:38,209 --> 01:06:39,589
a number of different pools
1637
01:06:39,589 --> 01:06:40,829
that are running Stratum v2.
1638
01:06:41,089 --> 01:06:42,469
And he posted that to Buzz.
1639
01:06:42,629 --> 01:06:42,809
Yeah.
1640
01:06:42,929 --> 01:06:43,609
He had his agents
1641
01:06:43,609 --> 01:06:44,289
do all the work.
1642
01:06:44,509 --> 01:06:44,929
And you can go,
1643
01:06:45,189 --> 01:06:46,269
it's public.
1644
01:06:46,389 --> 01:06:47,189
Anyone can go in there
1645
01:06:47,189 --> 01:06:47,789
and look at it
1646
01:06:47,789 --> 01:06:49,069
and see how he did it.
1647
01:06:49,249 --> 01:06:49,569
Badass.
1648
01:06:50,169 --> 01:06:50,749
It's badass.
1649
01:06:50,749 --> 01:06:51,309
I want to tip it.
1650
01:06:51,389 --> 01:06:52,089
It's badass.
1651
01:06:52,489 --> 01:06:53,069
And also,
1652
01:06:53,309 --> 01:06:54,669
last fall,
1653
01:06:54,989 --> 01:06:58,589
when Blocked Proto Division announced
1654
01:06:58,589 --> 01:07:00,669
the open source fleet software,
1655
01:07:00,989 --> 01:07:02,809
one of the ideas we talked about is like,
1656
01:07:02,869 --> 01:07:05,289
oh, we should organize like a global hackathon
1657
01:07:05,289 --> 01:07:07,389
for people to build.
1658
01:07:07,509 --> 01:07:09,469
And it would be like all day or maybe a week
1659
01:07:09,469 --> 01:07:11,189
or a month long hackathon or something.
1660
01:07:11,729 --> 01:07:15,329
I think hackathons are still very important,
1661
01:07:15,449 --> 01:07:16,889
but they'll be completely transformed.
1662
01:07:17,329 --> 01:07:19,149
I forget if it was DK or Matt
1663
01:07:19,149 --> 01:07:21,389
or someone had the idea of like a 15 minute hackathon,
1664
01:07:21,569 --> 01:07:23,009
which sounds almost comical.
1665
01:07:23,149 --> 01:07:23,649
No, I love that.
1666
01:07:23,649 --> 01:07:24,769
But I think you can combine
1667
01:07:24,769 --> 01:07:27,249
a 15-minute hackathon with Buzz
1668
01:07:27,249 --> 01:07:28,549
and it becomes a real thing.
1669
01:07:28,909 --> 01:07:31,849
Because instead of going to the extent
1670
01:07:31,849 --> 01:07:33,129
of organizing a global hackathon,
1671
01:07:33,229 --> 01:07:34,929
having hundreds of thousands of people involved,
1672
01:07:35,349 --> 01:07:37,509
huge logistics takes tons of time.
1673
01:07:39,069 --> 01:07:40,749
And historically, we would have hoped
1674
01:07:40,749 --> 01:07:42,109
the grand prize winner
1675
01:07:42,109 --> 01:07:43,689
would be something like PodLinux
1676
01:07:43,689 --> 01:07:46,469
built in a few hours with agents by himself.
1677
01:07:46,729 --> 01:07:47,029
I love it.
1678
01:07:47,409 --> 01:07:47,709
I'm in.
1679
01:07:47,929 --> 01:07:48,129
I'm in.
1680
01:07:48,269 --> 01:07:48,349
Right?
1681
01:07:48,909 --> 01:07:50,989
So, I mean, the last thing I want to say on this
1682
01:07:50,989 --> 01:07:51,829
just is like, again,
1683
01:07:51,909 --> 01:07:53,529
I think this is the way to back into the marketplace.
1684
01:07:53,649 --> 01:07:55,289
and I forget the other, the goose dude
1685
01:07:55,289 --> 01:07:58,609
that's doing the like ranger GPU for stats or whatever.
1686
01:07:58,869 --> 01:08:02,709
Like this, this is the way that's going to start
1687
01:08:02,709 --> 01:08:04,009
and I'm super excited for it.
1688
01:08:04,489 --> 01:08:06,589
Yeah, I don't know if the latest Buzz release
1689
01:08:06,589 --> 01:08:07,769
has come out yet today,
1690
01:08:07,909 --> 01:08:10,989
but the next release will have
1691
01:08:10,989 --> 01:08:14,329
hopefully working mesh LLM within Buzz.
1692
01:08:14,729 --> 01:08:17,169
There was some of the last pieces of functionality
1693
01:08:17,169 --> 01:08:21,109
merged in a PR late last night or early this morning,
1694
01:08:21,109 --> 01:08:22,469
depending on which time zone you're in.
1695
01:08:23,649 --> 01:08:28,509
And since Jack's telling everyone to use it,
1696
01:08:28,629 --> 01:08:32,069
so it would help if it actually worked.
1697
01:08:32,169 --> 01:08:32,949
So it should work now.
1698
01:08:33,969 --> 01:08:37,329
I assume MeshLM is and will continue to be
1699
01:08:37,329 --> 01:08:41,569
a very separate project, isolated, sequestered from Buzz,
1700
01:08:41,649 --> 01:08:44,409
but just might actually just work well together as a provider?
1701
01:08:45,569 --> 01:08:48,269
Yeah, so like GDK, we want lots of clients, not just one.
1702
01:08:48,569 --> 01:08:50,869
This is not just Buzz.
1703
01:08:51,389 --> 01:08:53,029
Many clients can benefit from GDK.
1704
01:08:53,029 --> 01:08:55,169
many clients can benefit from Mesh LLM.
1705
01:08:56,169 --> 01:08:59,709
But meaning Mesh LLM is, like to Max's point,
1706
01:09:00,329 --> 01:09:05,029
he was having a tough time getting his first agent
1707
01:09:05,549 --> 01:09:07,549
that was his and that he could actually call on
1708
01:09:07,549 --> 01:09:09,949
because he had his problems that we discussed.
1709
01:09:10,669 --> 01:09:15,769
And I wonder if Mesh LLM could be part of the solution
1710
01:09:15,769 --> 01:09:17,489
for the onboarding thing that he was proposing.
1711
01:09:20,549 --> 01:09:21,069
Potentially.
1712
01:09:21,069 --> 01:09:24,349
you know I think with Mesh LLM
1713
01:09:24,349 --> 01:09:26,109
there's always going to be like a
1714
01:09:26,109 --> 01:09:27,049
vibrant
1715
01:09:27,049 --> 01:09:30,289
volunteer community people volunteering their
1716
01:09:30,289 --> 01:09:32,449
compute but I don't know how
1717
01:09:32,449 --> 01:09:33,869
well that scales
1718
01:09:33,869 --> 01:09:36,309
like is it going to scale enough
1719
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:38,529
to we're talking about like Mesh LLM
1720
01:09:38,529 --> 01:09:40,449
and Buzz I don't know if
1721
01:09:40,449 --> 01:09:42,309
and DK was wondering if
1722
01:09:42,309 --> 01:09:43,649
it can help onboarding
1723
01:09:43,649 --> 01:09:46,069
but I don't know if it'll scale enough
1724
01:09:46,069 --> 01:09:48,529
to be reliable to onboard
1725
01:09:48,529 --> 01:09:50,229
all Buzz users and be the first experience
1726
01:09:50,229 --> 01:09:52,649
So probably you have to pay for compute.
1727
01:09:52,789 --> 01:09:57,109
I mean, eventually we're going to add Bitcoin payments for Mesh LLM.
1728
01:09:57,889 --> 01:10:00,569
But then that introduces another onboarding obstacle,
1729
01:10:00,869 --> 01:10:03,009
which is you need to own Bitcoin.
1730
01:10:03,169 --> 01:10:04,189
You need to have a spending wallet,
1731
01:10:04,529 --> 01:10:06,509
which eventually everyone, of course, will have that.
1732
01:10:06,869 --> 01:10:07,609
But we don't have that.
1733
01:10:07,809 --> 01:10:09,009
That's not the situation today.
1734
01:10:09,409 --> 01:10:13,069
So I think it could replace one onboarding obstacle with another one.
1735
01:10:13,289 --> 01:10:17,229
But it also gives you another reason to have a Bitcoin wallet and get Bitcoin.
1736
01:10:17,229 --> 01:10:20,049
Yeah, and I think if you also make it super easy for like Cash App,
1737
01:10:20,049 --> 01:10:21,849
users like just like, hey, just like skins
1738
01:10:21,849 --> 01:10:23,969
QR code with Gash app. I mean, obviously, that's
1739
01:10:23,969 --> 01:10:25,889
not outside the United States, but...
1740
01:10:25,889 --> 01:10:27,909
Also, if you think about, I mean, if you come in,
1741
01:10:27,989 --> 01:10:29,989
if you're onboarding to Buzz and you aren't
1742
01:10:29,989 --> 01:10:31,829
already paying OpenRouter
1743
01:10:31,829 --> 01:10:33,909
or Anthropic or OpenAI or no one,
1744
01:10:34,209 --> 01:10:35,969
well, then you, no matter which direction
1745
01:10:35,969 --> 01:10:38,109
you go, you have an obstacle,
1746
01:10:38,449 --> 01:10:52,1000
right You got to like pay And in that for that type of person Bitcoin can be the most frictionless way It can actually be less work And you could also imagine just while we thinking out loud first it says hey
1747
01:10:53,060 --> 01:10:57,600
scan with Gashapp or a Bitcoin wallet. Here are some options to get one. If you really wanted to
1748
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:03,300
get cute with this and show the true potential of Nostre, then imagine as part of this, you also
1749
01:11:03,300 --> 01:11:08,700
build one of the things I've also been waiting for for years, Nostre-powered local Bitcoins with
1750
01:11:08,700 --> 01:11:12,520
agents helping to run that and all of a sudden you just go and like hey whatever country you're
1751
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:18,680
in you know whatever like send me your local payment boom you get your bitcoin i mean that
1752
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,500
what you probably want on its own relay but that could be very powerful too i mean so so i'm
1753
01:11:22,500 --> 01:11:27,180
wondering is this is this onboarding thing this onboarding thing feels to me like it's something
1754
01:11:27,180 --> 01:11:35,640
that's worth some real focus to fix and i don't know if it um you know i i think i mean i'm a fan
1755
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,1000
of Bitcoin, I would hope that Bitcoin could be useful and part of the solution. But I also
1756
01:11:39,1000 --> 01:11:44,040
feel like it's weird to say, hey, download this client software, join this thing. And now if you
1757
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:49,440
don't know about or have any Bitcoin handy, go off to this other website to buy it. So do you
1758
01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:54,840
believe that like the buzz project itself is likely to be able to solve that? Or should we be
1759
01:11:54,840 --> 01:12:00,380
finding third parties who are kind of working in adjacent spaces who might help that sort of get
1760
01:12:00,380 --> 01:12:05,160
your first, you know, get your first effectively solve the onboarding, get your first either
1761
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:06,720
Bitcoin or get your first
1762
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:08,880
key that helps you
1763
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:10,700
onboard with the Buzz ecosystem.
1764
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:13,340
Well, that's what I mentioned
1765
01:12:13,340 --> 01:12:14,800
and we've talked about on the show before,
1766
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:17,340
Matt, Buzz's work on
1767
01:12:17,340 --> 01:12:19,120
experimenting with Bitcoin
1768
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:20,820
within Buzz.
1769
01:12:21,060 --> 01:12:22,1000
It worked great. It was awesome. Great
1770
01:12:22,1000 --> 01:12:23,900
onboarding experience.
1771
01:12:24,660 --> 01:12:26,880
The only gotcha is that he used
1772
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:27,460
Lexi.
1773
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:30,920
So, a
1774
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,020
single vendor. And Lexi's awesome and it
1775
01:12:33,020 --> 01:12:34,900
worked great for that use case.
1776
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:43,200
But I don't think it's appropriate for an open source project to bake in a single vendor as your Bitcoin solution and no other vendors work.
1777
01:12:43,740 --> 01:12:53,720
So the work going on right now is like, okay, what's the right requirements and interface to Buzz so that other vendors can be plugged in?
1778
01:12:54,260 --> 01:12:56,580
So that work is currently ongoing.
1779
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:04,480
And that would span not just like acquiring Bitcoin, but send, receive and all other types of interactions of Bitcoin.
1780
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:08,460
I also think you probably could get pretty far early on just with donations as well.
1781
01:13:08,980 --> 01:13:11,680
Like, I mean, eventually I agree you need a market mechanism, but I don't know how long
1782
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:12,740
this is going to take to solve.
1783
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,740
Whether people donate Bitcoin, I mean, I think probably the easier thing is something like,
1784
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:17,800
what's it called?
1785
01:13:17,1000 --> 01:13:18,560
Mesh LLM.
1786
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:23,680
You could just have people with dedicated machines that just like, to bootstrap it, want to help
1787
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,300
and just like, hey, I'm running this local model.
1788
01:13:25,780 --> 01:13:27,480
Anyone can call it whatever.
1789
01:13:28,260 --> 01:13:29,440
We know the electricity cost of this.
1790
01:13:29,500 --> 01:13:31,040
They can always shut it down if it gets too expensive.
1791
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,220
then that's probably enough to get to the first,
1792
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,140
I don't know, 10x from where we are now.
1793
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,420
And then the Bitcoin maybe is the one after that.
1794
01:13:37,980 --> 01:13:40,140
Yeah, but that's where I raised questions.
1795
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:45,080
Is the volunteer Mesh LLM community
1796
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,460
going to scale with Buzz?
1797
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:49,440
No, but I think it could get you at least
1798
01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:50,860
to the next order of magnitude, is my guess.
1799
01:13:51,340 --> 01:13:51,480
Okay.
1800
01:13:51,860 --> 01:13:53,380
Yeah, I mean, I think it's an interesting,
1801
01:13:53,1000 --> 01:13:55,780
I don't think we should put all our eggs
1802
01:13:55,780 --> 01:13:58,100
in the Mesh LLM basket for solving
1803
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:00,020
all onboarding problems with Buzz.
1804
01:14:00,020 --> 01:14:01,740
It's just like one of many ideas.
1805
01:14:02,020 --> 01:14:04,040
We've talked about four ideas, at least on the show,
1806
01:14:04,260 --> 01:14:05,380
and there's many more.
1807
01:14:05,740 --> 01:14:07,540
I think the other really easy one that I would just say
1808
01:14:07,540 --> 01:14:08,840
as a starter, I don't know what Matt says
1809
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:10,920
when he says you can embed a tiny local model.
1810
01:14:11,180 --> 01:14:12,420
That potentially sounds interesting,
1811
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:13,560
although I don't know where that would be running.
1812
01:14:13,1000 --> 01:14:14,860
But also like...
1813
01:14:14,860 --> 01:14:15,920
Well, it's local.
1814
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:16,420
Local.
1815
01:14:17,420 --> 01:14:18,180
That's where it would be running.
1816
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:19,880
Same computer that runs...
1817
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:21,980
I would have to give it access to it,
1818
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:22,980
just like I would with CloudCut.
1819
01:14:23,460 --> 01:14:24,540
Well, it's...
1820
01:14:24,540 --> 01:14:26,860
But I guess it's a lot less smart.
1821
01:14:26,860 --> 01:14:28,400
It's what DK was talking about earlier.
1822
01:14:28,660 --> 01:14:28,820
Yeah.
1823
01:14:28,820 --> 01:14:32,260
I mean, whether the model is running locally or in the cloud,
1824
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:34,840
if you install client-side software
1825
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,540
and give it access to your computer,
1826
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,200
it doesn't matter if the model is running locally or in the cloud,
1827
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:43,180
it can do things to your computer.
1828
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:45,640
Yeah, no, no, I hear you on that.
1829
01:14:46,180 --> 01:14:47,500
Okay, I'll figure that out.
1830
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:49,640
To your point, yes, so even if Buzz
1831
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:53,780
embeds a tiny local model into Buzz,
1832
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:57,380
I guess to you that raised alarm bells,
1833
01:14:58,120 --> 01:14:59,760
But I think to DK, I mean,
1834
01:14:59,960 --> 01:15:03,660
it's not about whether the model is embedded locally
1835
01:15:03,660 --> 01:15:04,580
or in the cloud.
1836
01:15:04,740 --> 01:15:07,700
It's like, what does the client-side software do?
1837
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:09,160
What is its design?
1838
01:15:09,340 --> 01:15:13,200
And what are the risks of it following that design?
1839
01:15:13,860 --> 01:15:15,160
What are the defaults?
1840
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:16,020
That's what matters.
1841
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,360
Yeah, and I guess my whatever bias,
1842
01:15:19,460 --> 01:15:20,320
which may or may not be found,
1843
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,480
that is if it's a local model and it's not that intelligent,
1844
01:15:22,480 --> 01:15:23,720
I'm probably less worried than Fable.
1845
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,880
But two ideas I think are very practical to start.
1846
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:28,860
One is like Block could just run a model
1847
01:15:28,860 --> 01:15:29,900
that anyone can access.
1848
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,340
Super cheap local one just to get started.
1849
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:33,380
And like, I don't know,
1850
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:34,440
if it starts to become a problem,
1851
01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:35,220
then you can shut it down.
1852
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:37,180
But that would be an easy way to onboard people.
1853
01:15:37,460 --> 01:15:38,960
Another thing you could do is companies.
1854
01:15:39,340 --> 01:15:40,620
And by the way, I think that could be interesting
1855
01:15:40,620 --> 01:15:41,900
for Block and for other companies
1856
01:15:41,900 --> 01:15:43,320
is that this is kind of like
1857
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,500
top of the funnel marketing for you, right?
1858
01:15:45,820 --> 01:15:48,160
So like imagine Block gets in the cloud business
1859
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:48,700
all of a sudden
1860
01:15:48,700 --> 01:15:50,800
because you guys are the neutral party
1861
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:52,300
that maybe you start doing it
1862
01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:54,420
in a more secure, sovereign, private way,
1863
01:15:54,420 --> 01:15:56,420
but it's still a cloud model.
1864
01:15:56,420 --> 01:15:58,760
other companies like Maple
1865
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:00,760
AI as an example, they
1866
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:02,520
could use this as top of the funnel marketing as well.
1867
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:04,660
They could say, hey, we're offering this
1868
01:16:04,660 --> 01:16:06,120
for free until it becomes a problem.
1869
01:16:06,660 --> 01:16:08,800
Anyone that wants to call our agent, here it is.
1870
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:10,760
Oh, by the way, it runs privately in the cloud.
1871
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:12,800
Want to learn more? Here's how
1872
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,100
you can get your enterprise set up.
1873
01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:16,680
I actually think there's something really interesting to block becoming
1874
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:18,680
a more trusted
1875
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:20,660
sovereign cloud company because
1876
01:16:20,660 --> 01:16:22,480
I don't want to use OpenAI or Edthrobot.
1877
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:24,680
100% agree with both those
1878
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,760
points. We have proximity
1879
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:28,640
chat nine saying, been
1880
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:30,780
trying to use Buzz, coming across an error.
1881
01:16:31,380 --> 01:16:31,680
So,
1882
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:34,740
we are your customer support channel here on
1883
01:16:34,740 --> 01:16:36,520
PBJ. A couple things to try.
1884
01:16:36,940 --> 01:16:38,920
Make sure you have CloudCode
1885
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:40,680
CLI
1886
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:42,080
installed and also that you're
1887
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:44,700
logged in or authenticated. So, go to
1888
01:16:44,700 --> 01:16:46,660
like terminal and make
1889
01:16:46,660 --> 01:16:48,620
sure that you're logged in and can use
1890
01:16:48,620 --> 01:16:49,020
it there.
1891
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,400
I think I found before, sometimes
1892
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:54,540
Cloud will log me out
1893
01:16:54,680 --> 01:17:01,160
and then i get similar types of errors that's one thing to try out um cool all right well we
1894
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:05,480
can talk about buzz a lot more but maybe we'll get to a few other few other things one last
1895
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:09,240
thought before we do just on that hosting model something that just keeps popping my head is like
1896
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,160
obviously this is a beautiful really cool open source project but in the future if you think i
1897
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:16,200
mean if you believe that intelligence is going to commodify i don't necessarily believe that
1898
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:20,600
in the short run but in the long run fine uh it comes back to like where do you actually make money
1899
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:25,640
I'm pretty sure just like hosting still always survives.
1900
01:17:26,340 --> 01:17:26,400
Yeah.
1901
01:17:26,480 --> 01:17:31,100
Some people are asking how is Block going to make money off of this
1902
01:17:31,100 --> 01:17:33,280
and if they're giving away for free open source.
1903
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:35,280
But I think there's like a myriad of possibilities.
1904
01:17:35,440 --> 01:17:37,600
And someone tweeted out a Grok analysis of like,
1905
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,620
Grok came up with like five different buckets of ways
1906
01:17:41,620 --> 01:17:42,560
that Block could make money.
1907
01:17:43,220 --> 01:17:46,420
If you become the intelligence layer
1908
01:17:46,420 --> 01:17:48,440
for every organization in the world
1909
01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:49,980
or like a large percentage,
1910
01:17:49,980 --> 01:17:52,120
there's going to be ways to make money.
1911
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:54,520
100%. Where do I buy my Bitcoin?
1912
01:17:54,620 --> 01:17:56,520
Hosting is the obvious one
1913
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,600
but Block knows a lot about hardware.
1914
01:17:59,300 --> 01:18:00,520
It has a long
1915
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:01,860
rich tradition in hardware.
1916
01:18:02,380 --> 01:18:03,960
There's probably angles with hardware as well.
1917
01:18:04,300 --> 01:18:06,500
There's the open router type of business. You can imagine
1918
01:18:06,500 --> 01:18:08,300
that. There's so many ways
1919
01:18:08,300 --> 01:18:10,540
to make money. I am not
1920
01:18:10,540 --> 01:18:11,240
worried about that.
1921
01:18:11,860 --> 01:18:14,500
If Buzz gets traction
1922
01:18:14,500 --> 01:18:16,560
with
1923
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,340
open source communities, that's
1924
01:18:18,340 --> 01:18:19,500
a great
1925
01:18:19,980 --> 01:18:24,500
sign, I think, of the business potential in the future. Because you get millions and millions and
1926
01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:29,260
millions of people hooked on like, this is the way to communicate and build with a group of people.
1927
01:18:29,540 --> 01:18:33,500
It's going to seep into companies and organizations. DK already said earlier,
1928
01:18:34,140 --> 01:18:38,360
you know, if new startups, where are they going to start? When they have to choose a communication
1929
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:42,680
platform and a building platform, like I think more and more startups will choose Buzz.
1930
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:49,440
Cool. All right. Well, yeah, Proximity Chat, let us know if that works too. That'd be cool.
1931
01:18:49,980 --> 01:18:55,880
Okay, another exciting announcement was Wavelength from Lightning Labs.
1932
01:18:56,480 --> 01:18:59,040
So a new product from Lightning Labs.
1933
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:05,960
It's a combination of Lightning and ARC protocols and technology we've talked about in the show before.
1934
01:19:06,440 --> 01:19:12,700
It's actually the third implementation of ARC protocol, with ARC Labs and second being the other two.
1935
01:19:13,540 --> 01:19:16,800
So in many ways, the more the merrier.
1936
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:19,940
I think it's like a healthy sign for the ARC protocol
1937
01:19:19,940 --> 01:19:22,820
that you've got three different companies building on it.
1938
01:19:23,540 --> 01:19:24,700
Contrast that with Spark,
1939
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:27,480
where you only have one company building on Spark.
1940
01:19:27,860 --> 01:19:29,900
So I think it's a healthy ecosystem
1941
01:19:29,900 --> 01:19:33,260
to have multiple competitors building on ARC technology.
1942
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:41,720
And I haven't done a full deep dive on Wavelength yet,
1943
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:44,020
but they seem to be...
1944
01:19:44,020 --> 01:19:47,620
It's a good initial launch.
1945
01:19:48,460 --> 01:19:50,640
Maybe a little bit behind the other two
1946
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:51,620
in terms of functionality
1947
01:19:51,620 --> 01:19:53,980
and depth of the implementation,
1948
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:56,640
but that's understandable
1949
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:58,200
when you first launch.
1950
01:19:58,460 --> 01:20:00,620
But yeah, it's another...
1951
01:20:00,620 --> 01:20:03,540
I mean, my overall commentary, though,
1952
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:05,440
is like, I'm super happy
1953
01:20:05,440 --> 01:20:06,720
there's so many different protocols
1954
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:08,500
and companies building out solutions.
1955
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:10,620
But we actually now have a lot
1956
01:20:10,620 --> 01:20:11,880
of quality solutions.
1957
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:13,140
We need demand.
1958
01:20:14,020 --> 01:20:15,260
Well, we need demand.
1959
01:20:15,500 --> 01:20:17,320
We need like user demand for payments.
1960
01:20:17,700 --> 01:20:19,980
Because now, you know, you can,
1961
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:25,460
like whether it be Spark or Bark or Lexi
1962
01:20:25,460 --> 01:20:27,900
or Money Dev Kit or Wavelength,
1963
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:33,040
all of those are like really credible designs and solutions.
1964
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:35,660
I haven't used Wavelength yet.
1965
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:39,940
So I can't comment on like its production worthiness,
1966
01:20:40,100 --> 01:20:42,120
but it's either going to be, you know, now or soon.
1967
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:43,840
All those are like quality solutions.
1968
01:20:44,020 --> 01:20:45,500
And we need demand.
1969
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:46,780
I mean, we almost have more solutions
1970
01:20:46,780 --> 01:20:48,580
than we have users of Bitcoin payments, right?
1971
01:20:48,620 --> 01:20:50,140
We need more Bitcoin payment users,
1972
01:20:50,440 --> 01:20:51,680
which hopefully, as we just talked about,
1973
01:20:52,060 --> 01:20:54,840
buzz might be the lightning rod
1974
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,060
of introducing Bitcoin payments to the masses,
1975
01:20:58,060 --> 01:20:59,320
but we need something to do that.
1976
01:20:59,740 --> 01:21:02,900
You just told the entire history of Bitcoin
1977
01:21:02,900 --> 01:21:03,780
in the last six years.
1978
01:21:03,940 --> 01:21:05,240
So in that one statement,
1979
01:21:05,340 --> 01:21:06,940
we got a lot of cool technical shit.
1980
01:21:07,260 --> 01:21:08,360
It would be cool to have demand.
1981
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:11,200
One question that I have about this,
1982
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,180
I did not go super deep technically,
1983
01:21:14,300 --> 01:21:16,380
but I had Fable sort of evaluated for me.
1984
01:21:16,940 --> 01:21:18,040
My understanding is,
1985
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:20,220
and by the way, I was surprised actually to see that,
1986
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:21,780
I mean, it's not trivial
1987
01:21:21,780 --> 01:21:23,840
that they just kind of rolled their own argumentation.
1988
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:25,300
This seems like a pretty big lift,
1989
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:26,760
which is cool to see
1990
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:27,520
because I was kind of wondering
1991
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:29,340
when's Lightning Lab's going to ship something big
1992
01:21:29,340 --> 01:21:30,440
and this seems to be it.
1993
01:21:30,440 --> 01:21:33,040
I'd like to know how much of it was vibe-coded.
1994
01:21:33,220 --> 01:21:33,460
I'm sure.
1995
01:21:33,700 --> 01:21:35,300
I mean, Lalu has been, you know,
1996
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:36,960
big and bracer of vibe-coding forever.
1997
01:21:37,180 --> 01:21:38,640
And I think he's a great example, by the way.
1998
01:21:38,740 --> 01:21:40,960
Lalu is clearly a genius and an excellent developer.
1999
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:44,100
But the fact that he's embraced AI so much for so long,
2000
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,360
that to me is a cool model
2001
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:49,960
of what a good developer looks like in the future.
2002
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,260
But regardless, just so I understand
2003
01:21:52,260 --> 01:22:03,811
what the purpose of this release was my understanding is there were a couple of differences between this and some of the other ARK implementations Two big ones that stood out from what I could see
2004
01:22:04,191 --> 01:22:07,571
One is you don't need a swap server
2005
01:22:07,571 --> 01:22:10,091
between the ARK and Lightning network.
2006
01:22:10,471 --> 01:22:12,031
Somehow I didn't really fully understand
2007
01:22:12,031 --> 01:22:13,011
what this was getting at,
2008
01:22:13,131 --> 01:22:15,211
but according to my Fable analysis,
2009
01:22:16,271 --> 01:22:17,791
a Lightning invoice is created
2010
01:22:17,791 --> 01:22:20,731
when I guess the ARK tree is created for each transaction.
2011
01:22:20,851 --> 01:22:21,131
I don't know.
2012
01:22:21,231 --> 01:22:22,331
I didn't fully follow that,
2013
01:22:22,331 --> 01:22:27,311
but somehow it seems like one less step of needing to have a swap between ARK and Lightning.
2014
01:22:27,771 --> 01:22:32,571
The second thing that seemed to pop out to me is this is kind of focused to be more agentic first.
2015
01:22:32,571 --> 01:22:34,951
I think like MCP servers are built in natively.
2016
01:22:35,571 --> 01:22:38,971
So, I mean, it seems clear they're trying to focus on agents for payments.
2017
01:22:39,071 --> 01:22:40,291
I think a lot of us are making that bet.
2018
01:22:40,371 --> 01:22:41,391
That's where this is probably going to pop.
2019
01:22:42,251 --> 01:22:44,931
Is my reading accurate with what you understand?
2020
01:22:45,511 --> 01:22:48,191
Well, the second point, I didn't see that, but that wouldn't surprise me.
2021
01:22:48,191 --> 01:22:51,311
And if the MCP servers and stuff,
2022
01:22:51,391 --> 01:22:52,551
and if they did, that's great.
2023
01:22:52,631 --> 01:22:53,811
I think that's definitely the right direction.
2024
01:22:54,011 --> 01:22:56,451
I also think it's easy for others to add that.
2025
01:22:56,571 --> 01:22:58,771
It's not hard, but it's good if they have that.
2026
01:23:00,011 --> 01:23:00,911
The first point,
2027
01:23:01,911 --> 01:23:04,031
I certainly didn't study it enough
2028
01:23:04,031 --> 01:23:07,391
to be able to definitively say no or that's wrong.
2029
01:23:07,391 --> 01:23:12,791
But what I read is that they definitely have a swap server.
2030
01:23:13,071 --> 01:23:15,011
In fact, it's like more explicit.
2031
01:23:15,011 --> 01:23:20,111
it's like separate from their Arc server,
2032
01:23:20,351 --> 01:23:22,431
where I think like Bark, it's more integrated.
2033
01:23:22,711 --> 01:23:24,431
But either way, you have a swap server.
2034
01:23:24,531 --> 01:23:26,171
So I don't understand it in enough depth
2035
01:23:26,171 --> 01:23:27,231
to really know the difference.
2036
01:23:27,331 --> 01:23:30,131
But I guess I didn't see an aha moment there.
2037
01:23:30,431 --> 01:23:31,931
Okay, we'll have to look into that a little bit deeper.
2038
01:23:32,131 --> 01:23:33,291
Maybe someone in the chat understands.
2039
01:23:33,391 --> 01:23:34,231
If you do, please let us know.
2040
01:23:35,671 --> 01:23:36,611
But yeah, I mean,
2041
01:23:37,331 --> 01:23:40,031
we've talked before about trust models.
2042
01:23:40,031 --> 01:23:44,411
And so one area that I think is still evolving
2043
01:23:44,411 --> 01:23:47,011
within Wavelength is how to handle
2044
01:23:47,011 --> 01:23:52,271
mobile clients and trust.
2045
01:23:52,451 --> 01:23:54,371
Like with both ArcLabs and Second,
2046
01:23:54,731 --> 01:23:57,331
they introduce Spark-like trust
2047
01:23:57,331 --> 01:23:59,971
so that you get a good user experience.
2048
01:24:00,091 --> 01:24:00,191
Right.
2049
01:24:00,491 --> 01:24:01,531
Because a mobile phone,
2050
01:24:01,651 --> 01:24:02,351
when it's in your pocket,
2051
01:24:02,451 --> 01:24:06,271
it can't interact with the rounds
2052
01:24:06,271 --> 01:24:07,771
that happen every hour or so.
2053
01:24:07,911 --> 01:24:08,091
Right.
2054
01:24:08,091 --> 01:24:10,511
Or, yeah.
2055
01:24:10,791 --> 01:24:13,311
And so they introduce trust to be able to,
2056
01:24:13,311 --> 01:24:16,411
You basically delegate that duty to a third party.
2057
01:24:17,191 --> 01:24:20,211
And then the nice thing, though, about ARK versus Spark
2058
01:24:20,211 --> 01:24:26,791
is that if and when you want to participate interactively in a round,
2059
01:24:27,211 --> 01:24:31,251
all past payments you've received, which are trusted, become trustless.
2060
01:24:31,251 --> 01:24:32,931
And with Spark, you can't do that.
2061
01:24:33,171 --> 01:24:34,091
You're always trusting.
2062
01:24:35,051 --> 01:24:36,251
So that's a big win.
2063
01:24:36,511 --> 01:24:40,551
But with Wavelength, there's no solution yet, I don't think.
2064
01:24:40,791 --> 01:24:43,171
Did you guys see there's actually a fourth implementation of ARK
2065
01:24:43,171 --> 01:24:43,971
that came out recently.
2066
01:24:44,971 --> 01:24:46,671
It was from Chainalysis.
2067
01:24:47,411 --> 01:24:48,191
It's called NARC.
2068
01:24:50,071 --> 01:24:52,011
We caught your joke.
2069
01:24:52,431 --> 01:24:52,931
That's good.
2070
01:24:53,011 --> 01:24:53,371
Good naming.
2071
01:24:54,031 --> 01:24:54,711
Very nice.
2072
01:24:55,291 --> 01:24:55,831
I do like that.
2073
01:24:56,511 --> 01:24:57,171
I've been here all the week.
2074
01:25:00,431 --> 01:25:02,531
Yeah, so good.
2075
01:25:02,671 --> 01:25:04,311
I mean, it's also an acknowledgement
2076
01:25:04,311 --> 01:25:06,791
from a major lightning company
2077
01:25:06,791 --> 01:25:11,351
that the importance of ARC protocol
2078
01:25:11,351 --> 01:25:13,431
and that it can complement lightning.
2079
01:25:14,491 --> 01:25:17,511
I also see an open PR that's being investigated
2080
01:25:17,511 --> 01:25:21,631
that is reminiscent of what Spiral's doing with Lark.
2081
01:25:22,751 --> 01:25:26,511
So Spiral's been working on the Lark project
2082
01:25:26,511 --> 01:25:29,291
since around Christmas time,
2083
01:25:29,411 --> 01:25:32,791
which is adding virtual lightning channels
2084
01:25:32,791 --> 01:25:33,971
at the leaves of an arc tree.
2085
01:25:34,131 --> 01:25:35,211
We've talked about it in the show.
2086
01:25:36,171 --> 01:25:37,771
It's pretty technical in the weeds,
2087
01:25:37,931 --> 01:25:39,291
but at a high level,
2088
01:25:39,291 --> 01:25:43,131
you get the benefits of ARK scaling number of wallets
2089
01:25:43,131 --> 01:25:46,531
with the benefits of Lightning scaling the liquidity
2090
01:25:46,531 --> 01:25:48,411
and payment volume.
2091
01:25:49,491 --> 01:25:50,831
And you get both.
2092
01:25:51,191 --> 01:25:52,491
So we've been working on that.
2093
01:25:53,551 --> 01:25:56,211
We've vibrooted a wallet and have it working internally.
2094
01:25:57,011 --> 01:26:00,151
And it looks like there's an open PR for Wavelength
2095
01:26:00,151 --> 01:26:02,011
to do something similar as well.
2096
01:26:02,571 --> 01:26:06,111
So that right now is, I think,
2097
01:26:06,111 --> 01:26:09,731
the sort of the bleeding edge of scaling technology.
2098
01:26:10,251 --> 01:26:12,531
So it's really good that we have all this R&D happening around this.
2099
01:26:12,771 --> 01:26:16,851
But again, we don't need, like in terms of demand today,
2100
01:26:17,731 --> 01:26:19,151
just basic lightning works.
2101
01:26:19,631 --> 01:26:22,311
Like fees are super, on-chain fees are low.
2102
01:26:22,591 --> 01:26:24,651
Opening and closing lightning channels is super cheap.
2103
01:26:24,831 --> 01:26:26,011
So just lightning works.
2104
01:26:27,011 --> 01:26:29,611
We're developing all this other technology to scale beyond,
2105
01:26:29,891 --> 01:26:31,591
you know, when we have hundreds of millions of users
2106
01:26:31,591 --> 01:26:32,411
and tons of demand.
2107
01:26:32,411 --> 01:26:34,771
but we need
2108
01:26:34,771 --> 01:26:36,751
tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands
2109
01:26:36,751 --> 01:26:37,231
of users.
2110
01:26:38,631 --> 01:26:40,591
But the thing is, if something
2111
01:26:40,591 --> 01:26:42,191
like Buzz takes off
2112
01:26:42,191 --> 01:26:44,651
and payments within, it can happen
2113
01:26:44,651 --> 01:26:46,711
fast. So it's really good that we are building out
2114
01:26:46,711 --> 01:26:48,411
all the protocols and infrastructure
2115
01:26:48,411 --> 01:26:50,091
and vendors behind it.
2116
01:26:50,691 --> 01:26:52,751
But we don't yet need it.
2117
01:26:53,591 --> 01:26:53,751
Cool.
2118
01:26:54,551 --> 01:26:56,611
Any other questions or comments on
2119
01:26:56,611 --> 01:26:56,971
Wavelength?
2120
01:26:58,291 --> 01:26:58,811
No.
2121
01:26:58,811 --> 01:26:59,531
yeah
2122
01:26:59,531 --> 01:27:03,911
maybe we do rapid fire
2123
01:27:03,911 --> 01:27:05,291
rapid fire
2124
01:27:05,291 --> 01:27:06,171
we gotta start a little late
2125
01:27:06,171 --> 01:27:06,651
so we can go
2126
01:27:06,651 --> 01:27:07,291
we can go late
2127
01:27:07,291 --> 01:27:07,991
there's
2128
01:27:07,991 --> 01:27:08,231
okay
2129
01:27:08,231 --> 01:27:09,691
one thing I want to touch on
2130
01:27:09,691 --> 01:27:12,051
back to Bitcoin
2131
01:27:12,051 --> 01:27:13,311
or I guess we just talked about Bitcoin
2132
01:27:13,311 --> 01:27:14,731
but like another topic on Bitcoin
2133
01:27:14,731 --> 01:27:16,691
you know
2134
01:27:16,691 --> 01:27:17,211
we talked
2135
01:27:17,211 --> 01:27:18,351
a few episodes ago
2136
01:27:18,351 --> 01:27:18,851
we talked about
2137
01:27:18,851 --> 01:27:20,651
various Bitcoin forks
2138
01:27:20,651 --> 01:27:21,671
and Bit110
2139
01:27:21,671 --> 01:27:22,731
is one that
2140
01:27:22,731 --> 01:27:23,011
is
2141
01:27:23,011 --> 01:27:24,191
that's making
2142
01:27:24,191 --> 01:27:26,311
a lot of noise on X
2143
01:27:26,311 --> 01:27:26,811
from
2144
01:27:26,811 --> 01:27:27,591
maybe like
2145
01:27:27,591 --> 01:27:29,971
a couple dozen people or accounts
2146
01:27:29,971 --> 01:27:34,211
and a ton of like seemingly robot accounts.
2147
01:27:36,011 --> 01:27:40,531
But one thing that happened in the ecosystem,
2148
01:27:40,771 --> 01:27:42,191
I mean, from my discussions
2149
01:27:42,191 --> 01:27:44,251
with different companies in the ecosystem,
2150
01:27:45,031 --> 01:27:48,631
is that BIP-110, it's not even on their radar.
2151
01:27:48,891 --> 01:27:50,011
It's not of interest to them.
2152
01:27:50,151 --> 01:27:51,091
It's not of value to them.
2153
01:27:51,151 --> 01:27:52,931
They have no plans to support BIP-110.
2154
01:27:52,931 --> 01:27:58,371
but the one company I've seen really engage on it
2155
01:27:58,371 --> 01:28:01,251
is Foundry, which is a major mining pool
2156
01:28:01,251 --> 01:28:05,591
either the biggest or second biggest mining pool in the world
2157
01:28:05,591 --> 01:28:08,351
and to my understanding
2158
01:28:08,351 --> 01:28:11,351
they don't necessarily support BIP-110
2159
01:28:11,351 --> 01:28:13,831
but what they did announce is a vote
2160
01:28:13,831 --> 01:28:18,291
and this I think was kind of
2161
01:28:18,291 --> 01:28:21,031
misguided and I'll explain why
2162
01:28:21,031 --> 01:28:34,771
It doesn't surprise me they did this though, because in speaking with them the past several years, I think it's important to them to not be in a position where they're deciding what is Bitcoin or which fork to choose.
2163
01:28:35,111 --> 01:28:43,011
They don't want to decide that. I think that's a good position to have. They don't want to have the power or abuse their power. I think that's a good attitude.
2164
01:28:43,011 --> 01:28:46,791
but the solution
2165
01:28:46,791 --> 01:28:48,811
they're choosing I kind of
2166
01:28:48,811 --> 01:28:49,531
take issue with
2167
01:28:49,531 --> 01:28:54,951
asking their customers to vote
2168
01:28:54,951 --> 01:29:01,711
by doing that
2169
01:29:01,711 --> 01:29:04,271
it makes it so that
2170
01:29:04,271 --> 01:29:06,031
this particular fork
2171
01:29:06,031 --> 01:29:08,411
it raises its importance
2172
01:29:08,411 --> 01:29:11,391
you still have to decide which forks
2173
01:29:11,391 --> 01:29:15,191
raised to the level of putting a vote out to your customers.
2174
01:29:16,131 --> 01:29:19,831
And, you know, I'm definitely not supportive of BIP 110.
2175
01:29:20,051 --> 01:29:21,111
I don't think it meets the bar.
2176
01:29:21,511 --> 01:29:23,891
But whether one thinks it does or doesn't,
2177
01:29:24,011 --> 01:29:25,371
like how are you going to choose that
2178
01:29:25,371 --> 01:29:28,211
across all the myriad of other potential forks?
2179
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:29,831
I mean, we could Sybil attack forks.
2180
01:29:30,151 --> 01:29:32,171
Like I could create tons of BIPs
2181
01:29:32,171 --> 01:29:34,651
and publish the BIPs and like lots of different forks.
2182
01:29:34,751 --> 01:29:36,431
I mean, which ones rise to the occasion?
2183
01:29:36,971 --> 01:29:40,631
So they did exercise their power and judgment for that.
2184
01:29:41,391 --> 01:29:46,411
then the way they executed it is challenging
2185
01:29:46,411 --> 01:29:51,071
because the vote ends at the same block height
2186
01:29:51,071 --> 01:29:55,951
as when mandatory signaling and activation has to occur.
2187
01:29:56,091 --> 01:29:59,151
So there's no time in between the end of the vote
2188
01:29:59,151 --> 01:30:01,651
for people to actually know what's going to happen.
2189
01:30:01,851 --> 01:30:03,691
They also didn't communicate what would happen
2190
01:30:03,691 --> 01:30:05,751
at the end of the vote.
2191
01:30:05,751 --> 01:30:08,951
Like, does the vote then lock in their decision
2192
01:30:08,951 --> 01:30:13,691
to enforce and support this fork?
2193
01:30:14,271 --> 01:30:17,151
Or does it mean that they'll just begin signaling?
2194
01:30:17,291 --> 01:30:19,151
But if it's just the latter, it's too late
2195
01:30:19,151 --> 01:30:20,651
because it's at the point of this fork.
2196
01:30:20,711 --> 01:30:23,091
The way the fork is defined, that's too late.
2197
01:30:23,331 --> 01:30:24,911
Now is the time to be signaling.
2198
01:30:25,471 --> 01:30:28,531
And also, it's an abuse of signaling.
2199
01:30:28,531 --> 01:30:32,111
What signaling is intended to mean for a mining pool
2200
01:30:32,111 --> 01:30:36,731
is that we are running the software for this fork
2201
01:30:36,731 --> 01:30:38,351
and enforcing the fork.
2202
01:30:38,351 --> 01:30:40,131
it's a communication mechanism
2203
01:30:40,131 --> 01:30:42,531
it's not cryptographically proven
2204
01:30:42,531 --> 01:30:44,211
so it's a trust basis
2205
01:30:44,211 --> 01:30:46,011
the world has to trust
2206
01:30:46,011 --> 01:30:47,071
the pool
2207
01:30:47,071 --> 01:30:49,491
first of all they have to trust that the pool
2208
01:30:49,491 --> 01:30:51,471
is the pool that they think it is
2209
01:30:51,471 --> 01:30:54,171
because anyone in Mindsblock
2210
01:30:54,171 --> 01:30:55,611
can say oh I'm Foundry
2211
01:30:55,611 --> 01:30:57,831
and you don't know
2212
01:30:57,831 --> 01:31:00,131
so first of all you're trusting that it's even from the pool
2213
01:31:00,131 --> 01:31:01,651
and then you're trusting the message they send
2214
01:31:01,651 --> 01:31:03,751
but still it's a useful
2215
01:31:03,751 --> 01:31:05,931
communication tool
2216
01:31:05,931 --> 01:31:07,391
for a
2217
01:31:08,351 --> 01:31:11,991
smoother activation of a consensus change.
2218
01:31:13,091 --> 01:31:16,171
It is not intended to be a vote.
2219
01:31:16,931 --> 01:31:18,611
So that's another thought with this.
2220
01:31:18,791 --> 01:31:19,811
I think what would have been,
2221
01:31:20,351 --> 01:31:22,031
in the near term, what would have been better
2222
01:31:22,031 --> 01:31:24,671
is to run two endpoints of their pool.
2223
01:31:25,311 --> 01:31:27,471
And one supports it and one doesn't.
2224
01:31:27,471 --> 01:31:28,951
And then their customers can choose.
2225
01:31:29,411 --> 01:31:32,671
If a customer wants to support this consensus change,
2226
01:31:32,991 --> 01:31:36,791
point yourself, your hash rate to this other endpoint.
2227
01:31:36,791 --> 01:31:39,071
because then your other customers
2228
01:31:39,071 --> 01:31:41,691
don't have to go along with that.
2229
01:31:41,931 --> 01:31:45,251
If it's like a 51% vote gets the fork,
2230
01:31:45,331 --> 01:31:46,411
then what about the 49%?
2231
01:31:46,731 --> 01:31:49,291
Because there's real financial costs to this.
2232
01:31:49,711 --> 01:31:50,611
If you choose wrong,
2233
01:31:51,071 --> 01:31:53,351
you're going to be mining on a fork
2234
01:31:53,351 --> 01:31:54,531
that has no future
2235
01:31:54,531 --> 01:31:55,911
and you're just burning energy
2236
01:31:55,911 --> 01:31:56,951
for no reason at all.
2237
01:31:57,591 --> 01:31:58,431
How does the vote,
2238
01:31:58,791 --> 01:32:00,811
like what are the actual vote mechanisms?
2239
01:32:00,811 --> 01:32:06,251
Is it like hash weight weighted, I'm assuming?
2240
01:32:06,791 --> 01:32:07,751
hash rate weighted?
2241
01:32:07,891 --> 01:32:09,431
I think they communicated that, yeah.
2242
01:32:11,451 --> 01:32:12,771
But what if people don't vote?
2243
01:32:12,871 --> 01:32:13,631
So let's say, whatever,
2244
01:32:13,751 --> 01:32:14,911
they've got an X hash
2245
01:32:14,911 --> 01:32:16,851
and half just doesn't vote,
2246
01:32:16,931 --> 01:32:17,151
then what?
2247
01:32:18,331 --> 01:32:21,471
I assume they'll just accept
2248
01:32:21,471 --> 01:32:22,731
whoever votes, right?
2249
01:32:23,051 --> 01:32:24,231
But I mean,
2250
01:32:24,351 --> 01:32:26,571
I highly doubt
2251
01:32:26,571 --> 01:32:31,111
that almost anyone's going to vote yes on this.
2252
01:32:31,111 --> 01:32:33,271
I don't have some concern
2253
01:32:33,271 --> 01:32:35,991
that they're going to actually support Bid 110.
2254
01:32:35,991 --> 01:32:39,051
It's more just the precedent set.
2255
01:32:39,331 --> 01:32:40,931
I think it's a bad precedent to set.
2256
01:32:41,211 --> 01:32:42,631
I think the other approach would have been better.
2257
01:32:43,011 --> 01:32:45,531
But the best approach would be to support Stratum v2.
2258
01:32:45,851 --> 01:32:47,171
If you support Stratum v2,
2259
01:32:47,811 --> 01:32:50,931
then miners themselves can run their own node.
2260
01:32:51,511 --> 01:32:54,291
Miners themselves can choose which rules they want to enforce.
2261
01:32:54,671 --> 01:32:56,871
And then the pool doesn't have to have voting mechanisms
2262
01:32:56,871 --> 01:32:58,111
or communications or anything.
2263
01:32:58,691 --> 01:33:00,791
The miners can choose what they want to do.
2264
01:33:01,111 --> 01:33:02,671
Pool then just becomes like an insurance.
2265
01:33:03,691 --> 01:33:05,071
Yeah, just like smooths out payments.
2266
01:33:05,071 --> 01:33:16,882
So I think that where we need to get to And there the good news is I mean we been working on Stratum v2 for like seven or eight years It amazing how long it takes
2267
01:33:16,882 --> 01:33:18,382
for protocol changes.
2268
01:33:18,862 --> 01:33:19,842
When Stratum v3?
2269
01:33:19,842 --> 01:33:23,602
Well, actually, Spiral does fund
2270
01:33:23,602 --> 01:33:25,042
other projects, not named that,
2271
01:33:25,102 --> 01:33:26,762
but other types of pool software
2272
01:33:26,762 --> 01:33:28,562
which even have longer timeframes.
2273
01:33:29,702 --> 01:33:32,082
Because Stratum v2 is not the be-all, end-all,
2274
01:33:32,502 --> 01:33:34,522
but it's meaningfully better.
2275
01:33:34,522 --> 01:33:37,462
the good news is there is
2276
01:33:37,462 --> 01:33:39,502
positive traction
2277
01:33:39,502 --> 01:33:40,802
the past three or four months
2278
01:33:40,802 --> 01:33:42,102
that's growing
2279
01:33:42,102 --> 01:33:45,402
and in fact CK PoolDev
2280
01:33:45,402 --> 01:33:47,442
who's OG mining protocol
2281
01:33:47,442 --> 01:33:49,562
dev, like his software
2282
01:33:49,562 --> 01:33:50,942
is used by every mining pool
2283
01:33:50,942 --> 01:33:52,422
for Shadden V1
2284
01:33:52,422 --> 01:33:55,502
he finally caught the bug for Shadden V2
2285
01:33:55,502 --> 01:33:57,002
came in as a skeptic
2286
01:33:57,002 --> 01:33:59,482
and has been tinkering
2287
01:33:59,482 --> 01:34:01,442
with it and he's posting about it every day
2288
01:34:01,442 --> 01:34:03,282
on Twitter and now he's like a full convert
2289
01:34:03,282 --> 01:34:05,942
and he's now running a pool
2290
01:34:05,942 --> 01:34:08,682
which includes Stratum B2 support.
2291
01:34:09,402 --> 01:34:10,382
And he's super happy.
2292
01:34:10,442 --> 01:34:11,862
He's done a ton of benchmarking
2293
01:34:11,862 --> 01:34:14,082
and you couldn't pick a better person
2294
01:34:14,082 --> 01:34:17,562
to really grind it out and test out software
2295
01:34:17,562 --> 01:34:19,602
and he thinks it's super high quality software.
2296
01:34:19,902 --> 01:34:20,242
That's awesome.
2297
01:34:20,362 --> 01:34:21,202
It is awesome.
2298
01:34:21,902 --> 01:34:24,282
One minor note,
2299
01:34:24,482 --> 01:34:26,302
I know we talked a bit about this before on the show
2300
01:34:26,302 --> 01:34:27,682
and we don't have time to go in depth.
2301
01:34:27,742 --> 01:34:28,922
I think it is worth it at some point.
2302
01:34:29,582 --> 01:34:30,942
But well, first of all,
2303
01:34:30,962 --> 01:34:32,402
I want to give a shout out to Stacker News.
2304
01:34:32,882 --> 01:34:35,362
Stacker News has been having some excellent AMAs lately
2305
01:34:35,362 --> 01:34:38,682
and all over the map.
2306
01:34:39,562 --> 01:34:42,082
Some you may like, some you may dislike,
2307
01:34:42,642 --> 01:34:46,702
but they've had notable guys from all of the impending forks,
2308
01:34:46,782 --> 01:34:47,562
which is kind of interesting.
2309
01:34:47,702 --> 01:34:50,462
I'm actually happy to see people trying to engage
2310
01:34:50,462 --> 01:34:54,462
in best-faith discussion and some more so than others,
2311
01:34:54,642 --> 01:34:55,822
but it was good to see.
2312
01:34:56,182 --> 01:34:58,162
One thing that really caught my attention yesterday
2313
01:34:58,162 --> 01:35:02,142
is I keep coming back to the heat punk people
2314
01:35:02,142 --> 01:35:04,882
and we had one of those guys
2315
01:35:04,882 --> 01:35:06,402
at the Type 1 Summit last year.
2316
01:35:06,502 --> 01:35:07,002
Very interesting.
2317
01:35:08,162 --> 01:35:10,242
And it was really cool for me to see.
2318
01:35:10,362 --> 01:35:11,802
I think I've seen a lot more experimentation
2319
01:35:11,802 --> 01:35:12,702
with this, I guess,
2320
01:35:12,802 --> 01:35:14,402
with the SHA-256 guys as well,
2321
01:35:14,442 --> 01:35:15,322
which I want to go much deeper
2322
01:35:15,322 --> 01:35:16,422
on all the stuff they're working on.
2323
01:35:16,742 --> 01:35:17,582
I find it very fascinating.
2324
01:35:18,122 --> 01:35:20,382
Two big ideas that have kind of surfaced for me.
2325
01:35:20,442 --> 01:35:22,042
One, that there's more pool experimentation,
2326
01:35:22,342 --> 01:35:22,882
which I like.
2327
01:35:23,182 --> 01:35:24,222
I forget the name of that pool,
2328
01:35:24,222 --> 01:35:26,482
which maybe has some questionable incentives,
2329
01:35:26,682 --> 01:35:27,502
but it's still fun.
2330
01:35:27,942 --> 01:35:29,502
Where, what was it?
2331
01:35:29,502 --> 01:35:31,362
It was like some kind of like,
2332
01:35:31,482 --> 01:35:34,282
it was like a lottery type pool.
2333
01:35:35,182 --> 01:35:35,422
I don't know.
2334
01:35:35,422 --> 01:35:36,242
I forget what it was.
2335
01:35:36,282 --> 01:35:36,842
It was some weird.
2336
01:35:36,942 --> 01:35:37,602
I know what you're talking about.
2337
01:35:37,642 --> 01:35:38,302
I forget the name.
2338
01:35:38,522 --> 01:35:38,682
Yeah.
2339
01:35:38,802 --> 01:35:39,102
Anyways.
2340
01:35:39,522 --> 01:35:41,042
But I think it's cool to start seeing
2341
01:35:41,042 --> 01:35:42,602
more experimentation around ways
2342
01:35:42,602 --> 01:35:43,662
to get people engaged with pools.
2343
01:35:43,882 --> 01:35:44,662
I'm sure there's a lot you could do
2344
01:35:44,662 --> 01:35:45,662
with the agents there too.
2345
01:35:46,142 --> 01:35:47,662
But really with these guys,
2346
01:35:47,662 --> 01:35:50,302
it further encouraged me to see,
2347
01:35:50,422 --> 01:35:51,222
you know,
2348
01:35:51,262 --> 01:35:52,842
this sort of like long-term vision
2349
01:35:52,842 --> 01:35:55,042
of Bitcoin mining ultimately coming
2350
01:35:55,042 --> 01:35:56,842
not from the big guys that are converting to AI,
2351
01:35:56,962 --> 01:35:57,742
that's going to happen,
2352
01:35:57,742 --> 01:36:00,882
just from moving things further and further to the edge,
2353
01:36:00,942 --> 01:36:01,622
which we've talked about,
2354
01:36:01,662 --> 01:36:04,282
but specifically just from anything that's producing heat,
2355
01:36:04,362 --> 01:36:05,202
just the reuse of heat,
2356
01:36:05,282 --> 01:36:06,402
that's the future of Bitcoin mining.
2357
01:36:06,682 --> 01:36:07,942
I wouldn't say I'm all the way there yet,
2358
01:36:08,002 --> 01:36:10,242
but I'm going further down that rabbit hole.
2359
01:36:10,842 --> 01:36:12,982
Yeah, anyways, I think that community is super cool,
2360
01:36:13,142 --> 01:36:15,282
and I appreciate the guy that did the AMA.
2361
01:36:15,402 --> 01:36:15,822
I want to do more.
2362
01:36:16,542 --> 01:36:16,802
Awesome.
2363
01:36:18,082 --> 01:36:19,982
One thing that we should at least note,
2364
01:36:20,542 --> 01:36:23,302
Jensen Huang published a letter today
2365
01:36:23,302 --> 01:36:26,022
and is, in fact, his first ex-post ever.
2366
01:36:26,422 --> 01:36:26,722
Wow.
2367
01:36:27,182 --> 01:36:28,022
Did you read this letter?
2368
01:36:28,202 --> 01:36:29,582
I mean, I saw the DLDR, but...
2369
01:36:29,582 --> 01:36:29,742
Yeah.
2370
01:36:30,142 --> 01:36:32,882
Anyway, I mean, everyone should read this letter.
2371
01:36:33,162 --> 01:36:34,282
It was really on point.
2372
01:36:35,122 --> 01:36:38,782
Easy to sign up for.
2373
01:36:39,182 --> 01:36:41,662
I mean, unless you're like Anthropic and OpenAI,
2374
01:36:41,902 --> 01:36:45,482
I don't see why you would not sign up for this letter.
2375
01:36:45,582 --> 01:36:46,922
And they were conspicuously absent.
2376
01:36:46,922 --> 01:36:49,122
And they didn't.
2377
01:36:49,622 --> 01:36:52,582
But Sam Altman did tweet in favor of it.
2378
01:36:52,582 --> 01:36:56,302
well I didn't sign
2379
01:36:56,302 --> 01:36:57,142
but he tweets again
2380
01:36:57,142 --> 01:36:58,762
questionable
2381
01:36:58,762 --> 01:37:00,582
who knows
2382
01:37:00,582 --> 01:37:05,482
I thought it was a super well written
2383
01:37:05,482 --> 01:37:06,962
persuasive letter on
2384
01:37:06,962 --> 01:37:09,422
supporting open weight models
2385
01:37:09,422 --> 01:37:10,522
and open source AI
2386
01:37:10,522 --> 01:37:12,362
so highly recommend it
2387
01:37:12,362 --> 01:37:14,302
anyone listening should definitely read
2388
01:37:14,302 --> 01:37:15,162
Jensen Wallace
2389
01:37:15,162 --> 01:37:18,102
a couple last thoughts
2390
01:37:18,102 --> 01:37:19,322
that are just popping my head
2391
01:37:19,322 --> 01:37:21,102
to lead you guys with
2392
01:37:21,102 --> 01:37:23,382
and our lovely audience for the weekend.
2393
01:37:23,602 --> 01:37:26,842
One, for Buzz, it would be super cool.
2394
01:37:27,342 --> 01:37:28,582
I wonder, is there a way?
2395
01:37:29,262 --> 01:37:30,102
Okay, so increasingly,
2396
01:37:30,242 --> 01:37:31,682
there's going to be a bunch of questions around,
2397
01:37:31,782 --> 01:37:33,202
you know, like, is this human or not?
2398
01:37:33,222 --> 01:37:34,602
And I know we've talked about economic weight
2399
01:37:34,602 --> 01:37:36,442
probably matters more than the humanity thing.
2400
01:37:36,802 --> 01:37:39,742
But as an alternative to the dystopian
2401
01:37:39,742 --> 01:37:42,102
opening eye eyeball scanning.
2402
01:37:43,622 --> 01:37:46,042
I know PB did a ceremony two weeks ago,
2403
01:37:46,042 --> 01:37:47,982
like a key signing ceremony for PGP keys,
2404
01:37:48,082 --> 01:37:48,502
which is cool,
2405
01:37:48,582 --> 01:37:50,242
but my understanding is it took like many hours
2406
01:37:50,242 --> 01:37:51,522
and was like extremely challenging,
2407
01:37:51,922 --> 01:37:52,862
therefore not a lot of people.
2408
01:37:53,302 --> 01:37:57,842
However, one thing that I remember with BitChat
2409
01:37:57,842 --> 01:37:59,902
getting more and more adoption is
2410
01:37:59,902 --> 01:38:02,262
that's kind of a lighter touch way
2411
01:38:02,262 --> 01:38:05,242
to do the PGP key signing ceremony,
2412
01:38:05,322 --> 01:38:06,442
but for Nostra keys of just like,
2413
01:38:06,742 --> 01:38:08,582
if we double opt in that we met each other,
2414
01:38:08,682 --> 01:38:10,302
that's like a pretty strong signal.
2415
01:38:10,702 --> 01:38:12,702
It would be super cool to have an easy way
2416
01:38:12,702 --> 01:38:15,902
to export, well, any Nostra keys,
2417
01:38:15,982 --> 01:38:17,002
like from Primal or Domus,
2418
01:38:17,002 --> 01:38:19,482
but also from BitChat.
2419
01:38:19,482 --> 01:38:22,302
into Buzz
2420
01:38:22,302 --> 01:38:25,822
and specifically playing with this idea of
2421
01:38:25,822 --> 01:38:27,502
if it comes from a web of trust
2422
01:38:27,502 --> 01:38:29,002
where there's a lot of human vouching,
2423
01:38:29,502 --> 01:38:31,582
can that weight somehow be shown
2424
01:38:31,582 --> 01:38:33,042
to demonstrate that this person
2425
01:38:33,042 --> 01:38:34,622
is more likely to be who these people are?
2426
01:38:34,622 --> 01:38:37,602
I think that's a really interesting project.
2427
01:38:37,822 --> 01:38:40,282
I think you should start a Buzz channel on that.
2428
01:38:40,762 --> 01:38:41,962
I'll participate.
2429
01:38:42,542 --> 01:38:45,682
I did a lightweight exploration
2430
01:38:45,682 --> 01:38:48,942
in this last summer.
2431
01:38:49,482 --> 01:38:49,942
I think.
2432
01:38:50,082 --> 01:38:50,282
Yeah.
2433
01:38:51,062 --> 01:38:52,822
But it would be so much more fun
2434
01:38:52,822 --> 01:38:54,102
to do it in Buzz community.
2435
01:38:54,322 --> 01:38:54,502
Yeah.
2436
01:38:54,642 --> 01:38:56,482
So I'm not just solo asking AI,
2437
01:38:56,682 --> 01:38:57,762
but I'm like with you guys.
2438
01:38:58,082 --> 01:38:59,322
So you need to bring your own agent
2439
01:38:59,322 --> 01:39:01,222
and then start that.
2440
01:39:01,942 --> 01:39:03,482
I think...
2441
01:39:03,482 --> 01:39:05,682
Unless someone gets an agent...
2442
01:39:05,682 --> 01:39:06,862
What's the right way for...
2443
01:39:06,862 --> 01:39:09,022
Let's say that Max is willing
2444
01:39:09,022 --> 01:39:09,702
to spend the $5.
2445
01:39:10,622 --> 01:39:11,742
Just pick a low...
2446
01:39:11,742 --> 01:39:12,722
Pick $5.
2447
01:39:14,182 --> 01:39:16,022
Put in $5 into Open Router.
2448
01:39:16,422 --> 01:39:18,182
Well, I'll let you from it $5.
2449
01:39:18,182 --> 01:39:21,222
So pick a low-powered agent and just try.
2450
01:39:21,402 --> 01:39:22,142
Just play around with it.
2451
01:39:22,182 --> 01:39:25,522
But my question is, if you wanted to actually pursue this,
2452
01:39:25,962 --> 01:39:29,922
should we be inviting people to the Flint community to do it?
2453
01:39:30,042 --> 01:39:31,662
Should Max be setting up a separate community?
2454
01:39:32,182 --> 01:39:35,382
Should they just DM Max if they want to participate in this project?
2455
01:39:36,222 --> 01:39:38,122
I'm not volunteering to run this project just yet,
2456
01:39:38,122 --> 01:39:40,842
but it is a good question, theoretically.
2457
01:39:41,082 --> 01:39:42,442
I mean, I assume you just set up a...
2458
01:39:42,442 --> 01:39:43,522
I mean, if you're already in the Flint community,
2459
01:39:43,602 --> 01:39:45,582
you just start a new channel because that's the least friction.
2460
01:39:45,582 --> 01:39:48,442
once you get your agent
2461
01:39:48,442 --> 01:39:50,002
this is trivial
2462
01:39:50,002 --> 01:39:51,542
to get going
2463
01:39:51,542 --> 01:39:53,202
well trivial
2464
01:39:53,202 --> 01:39:56,362
the only thing between you and having an agent is $5 an open router
2465
01:39:56,362 --> 01:39:58,302
no because then the open router
2466
01:39:58,302 --> 01:39:59,282
can still mess with my computer
2467
01:39:59,282 --> 01:40:01,422
no
2468
01:40:01,422 --> 01:40:03,922
anyways we'll take this off a lot and figure this out
2469
01:40:03,922 --> 01:40:05,282
once I get an agent I'm ready to cook
2470
01:40:05,282 --> 01:40:07,702
however but again
2471
01:40:07,702 --> 01:40:09,882
the idea that I really want to get across is
2472
01:40:09,882 --> 01:40:12,042
the fact that for mission critical software
2473
01:40:12,042 --> 01:40:13,742
for the world and the future all software
2474
01:40:13,742 --> 01:40:17,462
the fact that we're still doing these kind of like weird in-person ceremonies with like five people
2475
01:40:17,462 --> 01:40:23,022
this could be so much better to prove 100% agree let's explore that in buzz okay so that's number
2476
01:40:23,022 --> 01:40:27,562
one um yeah so so and and like it'd be cool to also have an app just like hey i already have
2477
01:40:27,562 --> 01:40:31,802
bitchat i already have primal i already have domus just like boop import me into buzz that
2478
01:40:31,802 --> 01:40:36,422
would be super cool as well second crazy idea not only explore it but you can build it in buzz
2479
01:40:36,422 --> 01:40:40,822
well okay i also have a little bit of a bd idea which i have some some thoughts on how to get there
2480
01:40:41,182 --> 01:40:43,882
This I'm more open to thinking about and pursuing.
2481
01:40:44,842 --> 01:40:48,982
How do we get the government of Argentina on Buzz?
2482
01:40:50,722 --> 01:40:52,122
I got some ideas around that.
2483
01:40:52,322 --> 01:40:53,422
But this is interesting, right?
2484
01:40:53,502 --> 01:40:56,942
These guys or whatever Argentinians that are thinking about this stuff
2485
01:40:56,942 --> 01:41:00,162
because they're saying they want to create the post LLC for agents.
2486
01:41:00,602 --> 01:41:01,942
Well, if that's going to happen in Buzz,
2487
01:41:02,302 --> 01:41:05,262
this is a beautiful legal and technological framework to make.
2488
01:41:05,262 --> 01:41:06,482
So I've got thoughts on that one.
2489
01:41:06,682 --> 01:41:08,722
That one I'm willing to put a little more work in.
2490
01:41:09,002 --> 01:41:09,182
Okay.
2491
01:41:09,182 --> 01:41:11,862
proximity chat nine
2492
01:41:11,862 --> 01:41:12,682
asks any update
2493
01:41:12,682 --> 01:41:13,362
on the treasure hunt
2494
01:41:13,362 --> 01:41:14,942
and either
2495
01:41:14,942 --> 01:41:16,282
that's two people
2496
01:41:16,282 --> 01:41:17,522
everyone loves the treasure hunt
2497
01:41:17,522 --> 01:41:18,582
two people who have reached out
2498
01:41:18,582 --> 01:41:19,162
asking about this
2499
01:41:19,162 --> 01:41:20,442
or it's the person
2500
01:41:20,442 --> 01:41:21,122
who DM me
2501
01:41:21,122 --> 01:41:21,922
who I already know his name
2502
01:41:21,922 --> 01:41:23,062
and I won't dox him
2503
01:41:23,062 --> 01:41:24,082
and it's only one person
2504
01:41:24,082 --> 01:41:24,482
I don't know
2505
01:41:24,482 --> 01:41:25,062
I have people asking me
2506
01:41:25,062 --> 01:41:26,122
IRL about the treasure hunt
2507
01:41:26,122 --> 01:41:26,422
so
2508
01:41:26,422 --> 01:41:27,542
proximity
2509
01:41:27,542 --> 01:41:28,362
the treasure hunt is fun
2510
01:41:28,362 --> 01:41:29,342
I have not
2511
01:41:29,342 --> 01:41:30,122
I have
2512
01:41:30,122 --> 01:41:31,342
I've continued to
2513
01:41:31,342 --> 01:41:33,062
to investigate
2514
01:41:33,062 --> 01:41:34,422
potential solutions
2515
01:41:34,422 --> 01:41:36,062
and I have not
2516
01:41:36,062 --> 01:41:37,082
found anything
2517
01:41:37,082 --> 01:41:38,442
that gives me enough conviction
2518
01:41:38,442 --> 01:41:39,802
that I'm willing to make the trip
2519
01:41:39,802 --> 01:41:41,082
for the boots on the ground phase yet.
2520
01:41:41,182 --> 01:41:41,962
So I will continue.
2521
01:41:42,202 --> 01:41:42,882
I mean, I push on this.
2522
01:41:42,922 --> 01:41:45,702
This is running basically 24-7 on my codex
2523
01:41:45,702 --> 01:41:47,402
and I'm always lobbing new ideas at it
2524
01:41:47,402 --> 01:41:51,382
and new ways to sort of analyze the word search,
2525
01:41:51,562 --> 01:41:52,582
pair it with the cryptogram,
2526
01:41:53,362 --> 01:41:55,702
pair it with real offline maps,
2527
01:41:55,822 --> 01:41:57,342
pair it with the screenshots we can get
2528
01:41:57,342 --> 01:42:00,862
from Strava and Google Maps Street View.
2529
01:42:01,002 --> 01:42:02,662
But I have not yet found anything
2530
01:42:02,662 --> 01:42:04,982
that has really felt like a smoking gun.
2531
01:42:04,982 --> 01:42:06,582
And I'm really looking for a smoking gun.
2532
01:42:06,582 --> 01:42:08,642
Sounds like something someone would say
2533
01:42:08,642 --> 01:42:10,682
who found some treasure and doesn't want people to know.
2534
01:42:12,282 --> 01:42:15,862
I was actually thinking of doing a treasure hunt community on Buzz,
2535
01:42:16,222 --> 01:42:18,142
like for there's treasure inside for this book.
2536
01:42:18,642 --> 01:42:21,722
And just my guess is most people in the book have never used an agent.
2537
01:42:22,182 --> 01:42:25,562
So I could just let my agents run within that channel.
2538
01:42:25,902 --> 01:42:27,122
And anybody who's interested in this book
2539
01:42:27,122 --> 01:42:29,622
could then come and try out Buzz with my agent
2540
01:42:29,622 --> 01:42:33,322
to help us all kind of collectively search for the treasure together.
2541
01:42:33,702 --> 01:42:35,782
Yeah, well, I mean, Matt asked you that same question,
2542
01:42:35,782 --> 01:42:38,522
but let's be honest, DK, you're not willing to get that help up.
2543
01:42:40,662 --> 01:42:45,462
I'm all for public buzz, but this treasure run, I keep to yourself.
2544
01:42:45,602 --> 01:42:47,922
Hey guys, here we all are together, just go grab my treasure.
2545
01:42:49,442 --> 01:42:51,622
Anyway, I think I've got a good advantage
2546
01:42:51,622 --> 01:42:55,982
because I'm probably close enough to the location that I could get there quickly.
2547
01:42:56,562 --> 01:42:59,322
Yes, DK, a few hours stands between you and treasure.
2548
01:42:59,822 --> 01:43:01,002
When will you go get that?
2549
01:43:01,062 --> 01:43:02,902
And a few more clever LLM prompts.
2550
01:43:02,902 --> 01:43:04,442
but I
2551
01:43:04,442 --> 01:43:07,162
it's pretty interesting that we have multiple
2552
01:43:07,162 --> 01:43:08,782
viewers who are
2553
01:43:08,782 --> 01:43:10,442
who want treasure hunt updates
2554
01:43:10,442 --> 01:43:12,562
treasure hunt is fun
2555
01:43:12,562 --> 01:43:14,202
I gotta tell you it is
2556
01:43:14,202 --> 01:43:16,702
it's a fun puzzle to be working on
2557
01:43:16,702 --> 01:43:18,902
and by the way I tried
2558
01:43:18,902 --> 01:43:20,962
setting up the Atlantis chat you guys saw
2559
01:43:20,962 --> 01:43:22,582
once we get some agents in there clicking
2560
01:43:22,582 --> 01:43:24,642
I've got more ideas on what we can do on that
2561
01:43:24,642 --> 01:43:26,162
I've also got a few
2562
01:43:26,162 --> 01:43:27,442
B-Y-O-A max
2563
01:43:27,442 --> 01:43:30,522
$5 max you can do it
2564
01:43:30,522 --> 01:43:32,382
I'll give you $5 set it up for me
2565
01:43:32,382 --> 01:43:36,042
on top of that though I am making now
2566
01:43:36,042 --> 01:43:38,002
I'm calling Atlantis because whatever
2567
01:43:38,002 --> 01:43:40,102
that's a catchy name but I have a running
2568
01:43:40,102 --> 01:43:41,402
list of all these new mysteries
2569
01:43:41,402 --> 01:43:43,962
by the way what I have been spinning
2570
01:43:43,962 --> 01:43:44,842
my tokens on
2571
01:43:44,842 --> 01:43:48,022
and why you know I'm not
2572
01:43:48,022 --> 01:43:49,762
fully out of my max plan but close is I
2573
01:43:49,762 --> 01:43:51,982
do have my agents crunching or I guess whatever
2574
01:43:51,982 --> 01:43:54,262
my co-work crunching
2575
01:43:54,262 --> 01:43:54,742
on
2576
01:43:54,742 --> 01:43:57,982
trying to translate some ancient languages so
2577
01:43:57,982 --> 01:43:59,742
I'm sure this is very common but
2578
01:43:59,742 --> 01:44:02,022
I'm making a little bit of headway perhaps on
2579
01:44:02,022 --> 01:44:03,162
the Voynich manuscript.
2580
01:44:03,802 --> 01:44:04,742
Now looking into
2581
01:44:04,742 --> 01:44:05,962
Linear A and Linear B
2582
01:44:05,962 --> 01:44:07,962
and a few ancient...
2583
01:44:07,962 --> 01:44:09,402
Sounds like an amazing
2584
01:44:09,402 --> 01:44:10,142
buzz project.
2585
01:44:10,442 --> 01:44:11,422
I'd love to lurk.
2586
01:44:11,462 --> 01:44:12,382
Yeah, bring us all in.
2587
01:44:12,462 --> 01:44:12,982
Let's lurk.
2588
01:44:13,082 --> 01:44:13,822
Help me get an agent
2589
01:44:13,822 --> 01:44:14,222
and we could.
2590
01:44:14,342 --> 01:44:14,982
All right, that's it.
2591
01:44:17,882 --> 01:44:18,482
All right.
2592
01:44:18,822 --> 01:44:20,322
Well, let's wrap with that
2593
01:44:20,322 --> 01:44:21,362
and we will see you next week.
2594
01:44:21,702 --> 01:44:22,002
All right.
2595
01:44:22,062 --> 01:44:22,462
Thanks, everyone.
2596
01:44:22,562 --> 01:44:22,682
Bye.
2597
01:44:23,082 --> 01:44:23,482
Thanks, guys.