Parenting Different: Welcome to the Parenting Different podcast. My name is Anna Bernacki and I am here today with Jessie Mattos Thank you for joining me today. I'm excited to have you here. Jessie and I have been making friends, I think on Instagram maybe a couple of years ago and gotten to know each other well over the last couple of years and I'm just really excited to have you here and willing to share your heart behind a different perspective on adoption than we talk about a lot and that is
Jessie Mattos: out
Parenting Different: birth mother perspective and ethics and just really ensuring that birth mothers are seen and heard throughout the adoption process. So welcome, Jessie Introduce yourself to us and tell us a little bit about what you do today.
Jessie Mattos: Thanks. Yeah, so my name is Jessie Mattos I'm a birth mom and work for Abiding Love Charities as the director of Birth Mother program. So I oversee all of our post-placement care services ⁓ for parents, I do a lot of work with adoptive parents as well, providing them with the necessary support that they ⁓ need after. after adoption. It seems like there's a lot of focus on support and education prior, but then what happens afterwards and that's kind of where we come in. I've been working in this space for like almost a decade. At this point, I've been involved in this space for much longer than that. But yeah, I love doing this stuff. Like you said, ⁓ want women to be informed and I want them to make a confident decision, ⁓ that they want to make. ⁓ not based on anyone else's opinions or feelings. ⁓ And so really just my goal and my work is to support women with also a focus on the adoptee experience. I think that when it comes to even the birth parent experience and our healing journey, if we can kind of find a goal to work towards when it comes to, you know, the child and the adoptee experience, I think that that can help us navigate this journey better. I think that it also helps us express our maternal care if we are learning about that experience and what ways we can show up for our child. So that is like, the heart of lot of my work is how do we make even our journey adoptee centered in a way. So yeah, that's just a little bit, a little bit about me. ⁓
Parenting Different: I love that. I love that you do center the adoptee in that too, because I think we talk often about how the birth moms sometimes get left out of the conversation and so adoptive parent centered, but really it should be all the way around, adoptee centered from both sets of parents, because the child, we're making decisions for the child. The child does not get a say in that. And so we've got to make sure that we're doing the right thing for the child's life because this isn't just a one time event. It is changing the course of their life. So when we talk about ethics, very layered, Like what, everybody's going to have a different opinion on that. Everybody's going, some people say, adoption should be banned altogether. Some people think there's no problem in it at all. This is a great thing and... you know, the adoptive parents are saving the world by adopting these babies, right? So we have such a broad spectrum, which I could get on a whole tangent on that one. That's a different episode. But there is such a wide range of opinions from all sides on adoption. And so tell me a little bit about what, when you think of ethics, what...
Jessie Mattos: That's for a different podcast.
Parenting Different: What comes to your mind and what are you looking for in those situations?
Jessie Mattos: Sure, the word ethics is so loaded. Like you said, people are gonna have a bunch of different opinions on it. And so I think it's hard when you hear that word, because when there's, to be honest, a lot of money involved in something, especially when it comes to a child, you have that question of like, is this ethical at all? And so for the sake of this conversation, we are gonna use that word. ⁓ But yeah, it is a complicated.
Parenting Different: Yes.
Jessie Mattos: thing to figure out what is ethical, what is right, what is good. I would love to live in a perfect world where adoption didn't exist. And unfortunately, we are working within the system that's been set up for us and trying to change it to the best of our abilities. And that's a slow and painful process sometimes. But we could go on and on about.
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: ethics and adoption and what that really looks like. And we do not have time to cover everything. ⁓ But there might be some things that we can kind of discuss here and maybe give some direction for families who are just starting out. yeah, when it comes to ethics, ⁓ be, ⁓ can look different for everyone that people have different definitions of ethics, which makes it even harder. ⁓
Parenting Different: for you. Yeah. Yeah, I, right, exactly. But I think what is good is in this conversation that has been happening, I know I get emails about it, I get messages on social media, because I work on more the parent side of adoption. And so, or the adoptive parent side, I should say. And so the message that I'm getting are either from adoptive parents who adopted a long time ago going, ⁓ no, I think I did something really, really wrong. Or I'm just starting out and I've heard that there's a lot of things within the adoption space. I want to do it right. What do I do and where do I go and what do I look for? So I think it's really good that these conversations are happening. We're starting to see like a shift, but how do we give them direction? Where do we tell them to go? What, you know, there's just so many things. So what are some basic things that an adoptive family is just starting out, what are they looking for? What some red flags? What are green flags? What are some things that they should be kind of walking in with their eyes wide open?
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, mean, first things first, make sure whoever you're working with or considering working with is licensed in your state. You can figure that out. Go to adoptchange.org to find if an agency or an attorney is licensed in that state. ⁓ you do not want to work with someone who is not licensed to facilitate ⁓
Parenting Different: Bye.
Jessie Mattos: And so that site is really good for families to check out to figure that out. then also check for any violations or complaints made on the state licensing page for any agencies and then utilize social media. There's so many Facebook groups that people are sharing insight in and you can join them and just search for the agency name. If don't see it, you can always post and even post anonymously asking for insight. I see that all the time. But you're going to get a variety of experiences and feedback from people. so you really just have to look for some patterns and some themes and of the things that you're might be hearing or reading. But social media can a bit of a ⁓ dumpster fire, but it can be a really good tool if you know how to use it. So I certainly recommend people, you know, reach out, ⁓ word of mouth. try to listen to others' experiences. And don't just listen to adopted parents, but try to, if you can, find information from birth parents as well and their experience working with the agency. That would be like the first steps there.
Parenting Different: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, right. So what would be so beyond that we found one that has, you know, maybe good reviews, it looks good. Where, where do we go beyond that? Beyond the maybe the marketing beyond the few good experiences? Where? How do we dig in and really see what they're actually doing or what it actually is all about.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, I mean, when it comes to fees, you want an agency that's gonna be upfront with their fees. Yes, sometimes there are circumstances where there might be an unexpected cost, but if there's consistently like... there's changes to those feeds and they keep tacking things on, that's a red flag. You want them to be upfront with these feeds and you want to understand exactly what you're kind of getting yourself into when it comes to that. So if you're, again, if your agency starts to kind of tack on, we've got this, oh, I forgot about this, like that's definitely something to be concerned about. But also when it comes to... not just like the fees, but even with the birth parent expenses as well. I think it's important to ask them how they're managing these birth parent expenses, because it should be pregnancy related expenses for the birth parents. ⁓ So if they're handing cash, large sums of cash, if they're not being forthcoming with what they're paying for and covering, that's... could be a bit of a red flag. And it's okay to lean in and ask these questions. think families sometimes get a little intimidated. They're like, ⁓ I just don't know enough. But if something feels weird, it probably is weird. So lean into that, trust your gut and ask those questions. Ask for clarification, tell them you don't understand. Even if you have to say it five different times to get the answer and information that you need, ⁓ do it. Because this is... You don't want to look back on your journey like you were talking about how there's some families that look back and they're like, ⁓ shoot, like am I part of the problem? You don't want to look back on your experience and regret not asking those questions or not trusting your gut because I meet those families that feel guilty and feel bad because the birth family wasn't treated the way that they should have been treated.
Parenting Different: Bye.
Jessie Mattos: That's the information that's part of the child's story. They're going to find that information out, whether it comes from the adoptive parents or comes from their biological parents. It's all going to come out in the wash. And so you want to be able to navigate this with confidence. ⁓ so lean in and ask those questions and don't just assume, just don't know what I'm doing. And that's why it doesn't make sense. And, you know, there's
Parenting Different: Exactly. Yes, it will.
Jessie Mattos: goodness gracious, there's so many other things. Are they transporting women out of state? You know, that's a big thing. There are very, very, very, very, very few reasons why a mother would be transported to a different state. So if an agency is flying women or busing women out to their state to facilitate the adoption, that is a red flag. I say there are very, very few reasons. I mean, to be honest, I don't even know if there is a really good reason to transport women out of state.
Parenting Different: Yeah, for sure.
Jessie Mattos: for an adoption and then also ask for ongoing care for the women as well, during their pregnancy and afterwards, are they being provided options counseling? Are they only speaking to the social worker at the agency or are they being provided other options for therapists outside of the agency? ⁓ Is there aftercare for her set up? Do they have a limit or cap on therapy needs as well? ⁓ For example, there's some situations where an agency might provide six weeks worth of therapy, that's not enough. Or they say we provide therapy in the first year. Most moms are not seeking support and therapy within that first year. So it doesn't make sense to cut it off after that year because it takes a couple of years in a lot of situations for a mom to get to a point where she's ready to receive that support and maybe even being consistent with it. if there's like hard limitations and on that type of support,
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: That could also be a red flag there as well. And also ask how many adoptions are doing a year. I mean, if they're doing like hundreds of adoptions a year, that's a red flag ⁓ because that's a lot of adoptions and how are, how is that happening? And then also matching, ask when they match. ⁓ If an agency is matching within the first trimester or even at the beginning of the second trimester for the moms, that's a red flag too.
Parenting Different: Right, why? Yeah. Right.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ You really want an agency that is supporting her and again, providing her options counseling, making sure that this is a decision that she wants to make and not matching her really early on because then that could open the door to coercion even in really subtle ways. ⁓ You want an agency that is kind of waiting until closer to the third trimester before matching. just to make sure that this is a decision that she wants to make and there aren't any outside factors that are applying pressure to her decision.
Parenting Different: I think one thing that I've heard of birth moms say, and I didn't even really consider this because I guess from my perspective, and I guess I'm in a different place in life too, but I don't owe anyone anything is kind of my attitude. But I know a lot of birth mothers have said that after matching, they feel the pressure to follow through because they don't want to break someone's heart.
Jessie Mattos: There's a lot of others.
Parenting Different: And that is, that's an overwhelming weight that they should never have to carry. And where is that coming from? Is that pressure coming from the agency? Is that pressure coming from, you know, the prospective parents? Where is that pressure coming from? Because that should not be a pressure that they are having to carry at all.
Jessie Mattos: It is. And it's a good question because pressure doesn't always, and coercion isn't always like ugly in your face. ⁓ can be positive adoption can be coercive. So if there's a lot of like ⁓ talk about selfless ⁓ this decision
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: how courageous and strong she is for considering adoption. If there's a lot of emphasis on adoption, but they're not saying the same thing about parenting, like that could be coercive, you know, because it's equally as, you know, you don't want someone to feel like she would be considered selfish should she also be considering parenting. So even paying attention to the type of language that's on the website or how her advocate or caseworker is speaking to her.
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ that stuff can really kind of seep into a woman's decision because when you are in a crisis mode, the part of your brain that controls rational thinking is just not working great. And so people might hear like, women really placing because they are afraid to hurt someone's feelings? Yes, it happens. Again, it's so hard to figure out what you need, what you want to do when you're in crisis.
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: and hard to advocate for yourself when you're in that. And you can easily feel swayed to do something or make a decision that you aren't really sure you want to make. and that can be hard for, I think, adoptive parents to ⁓ to pick up on sometimes. and you know, mom might have feelings after the, after the fact.
Parenting Different: share.
Jessie Mattos: which is why I'm a fan of revocation periods. But, you know, I think families need to also be mindful ⁓ how the agency is managing the communication between them as well. Are they using third party means of communication like apps and things like that? ⁓ If that is the standard, to me, that's a red flag. If they're just automatically, if an agency is automatically getting the families connected through an app to communicate, there's really, again, there's really not a great need for that. Just communicate with your phone numbers. And also how often. So again, the agency should kind of be monitoring the conversations and making sure, it doesn't mean they need to be necessarily like in that text thread. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not, but. You know, agency that's looking out for the mom is definitely going to be cautious of the types of conversations that the family is having with them, how often they're communicating and just being mindful of like, hey, if this level and this pattern of communication is not sustainable, you know, after baby comes home or whatever, like don't start that habit or that pattern prior. Because there are situations where families get really excited and that's understandable, but
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: Are you going to be able to FaceTime for two hours every single day after the baby's born? Probably not. So take a look at your other relationships that you're having, your other communication patterns and see, okay, I don't have any other relationship that looks like this. We don't talk this often because again, ⁓ apply pressure to the mom. so ⁓ managing isn't just about ⁓ you know, the type of conversations, but it's also the frequency and the means of communication as well. You want this relationship to be organic and comfortable. And if you're setting unrealistic expectations of how communication is going to be, then you're just setting yourself up for failure later on you're just gonna run into conflict when you aren't able to keep that level of communication up.
Parenting Different: Exactly. And I think too, this is obviously my own perspective, but from the adoptee side, when you're entering these conversations and as a perspective, adoptive parent walking into the agency and hearing these things, how are they speaking about the birth mother? Are they, ⁓ she's just low life, got nothing, can't parent, you know? are those the, is that the attitude towards the birth parent? Because if that is the case, then they're not going to support them. They're not going to help them if they decide to parent. They're not going to walk with them through that grief afterwards because, well, they weren't qualified to be a parent, so therefore they shouldn't be. And that, that narrative, and even like what you said, glorifying the the birth parent. when you're saying, you're so selfless, ⁓ what a great choice. What you're the adoptee, ⁓ unintentionally, I don't believe that it intentional, but what you are telling the adoptee is, loved you so much she left you. So now, love equals leaving. ⁓ You... were not wanted, those words may never come out of their mouth, ever. But that's the message I got, that my mom loved me so much, but there was such a problem with her that she gave me away because, so love leaves, but then I have my adoptive parents saying, would never leave you, we'll never make it make sense in a child's brain.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right.
Parenting Different: because it doesn't, there is no logic to that. And so you're hurting unintentionally, that narrative is hurting the child too. So, and I tell this story over and over, I truly thought that kids who were adopted were unwanted children. And it wasn't until I was an adult meeting other birth mothers talking, I mean, you were very instrumental in this, in changing my perspective on birth mothers, because all of a sudden I was like, They wanted their babies. They would have parented if they could have. And so that whole shift of feeling, and that's how many, probably 30 plus years of my life, believing that I was an unwanted child. Nobody told me I was unwanted, but that was the message that was received because of that narrative. So I think it's really important to listen to how they're speaking about the birth mother.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah.
Parenting Different: listen to what they are saying and really think about it from a child's perspective. How could a child interpret this? And that will tell a lot about what the agency is all about too.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Like I know you and I have had conversations about this, but you we don't place our child because we love them so much. We place our child because love was not enough. ⁓ That's not the love is not the reason why we place. There's probably multiple reasons why we place. ⁓ But it's not love. Like I think it's OK for families to just say like your birth mom loved you period.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly. Right. Right, it doesn't need to be this. And I get what they're trying to do, but it causes more damage than you're even intending to. Saying nothing, I think, would be better than that. Because it does, how does a child rationalize that? They can't. Because she gave birth to you, we're so grateful that she gave you life, we're so grateful that she loved you enough.
Jessie Mattos: Yes. Right.
Parenting Different: to let us parent you and all of these things, but then your parents aren't supposed to leave you. So why is it good for her to have left me, but you guys aren't supposed to? What is happening here? And it just it messes up a child's brain well into adulthood for me. And maybe that's maybe that's a saying something about me. I don't know. But it's a it's a narrative that should never have even been placed in my
Jessie Mattos: Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's just too abstract for children. that whole thought anyway. ⁓ Because that's not the facts. they, at such a young age, like that you just rely on the facts of their story. Age appropriate, obviously. But like, just be honest. Like, of why she wasn't able to parent or didn't have the resources of support or whatever it might be. Because yeah, love is not the...
Parenting Different: it was. Right. Exactly. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: reason why we place. So yeah, mean, there's people are going to have lots of different opinions on that as well. ⁓ know I've certainly heard even from other birth parents like, well, no, I placed because I love them so much. And it's like, sure. Okay. ⁓ ⁓ not again, ⁓ logistical reasons ⁓ that. ⁓ yeah, the language is a big thing. ⁓
Parenting Different: There are more layers to it than that. Right.
Jessie Mattos: like we were talking earlier, like just even that positive language, not even just negative stuff. But yeah, if they're really just kind of. bleh about the mom and seem kind of like annoyed or frustrated with her. I mean, it's just, that's going to seep into the adoption relationship and the open adoption. And so make sure that your agency is providing a lot of education, not just, you know, the bare minimum home study education and talking about these things and talking about the open adoption as well. You know, to me, I wish closed adoptions were not even an option. And so if an agency is doing a lot of closed adoptions, that's the red flag. You know, you want them to be supportive when it comes to an open adoption. You want them to be able to provide resources outside resources, not just to the adoptive parents, but to the birth parents as well. ⁓ If a caseworker advocate doesn't know of any resources for birth parents, that's a huge ⁓ flag. ⁓ should know of other resources available to them like Facebook groups, podcasts, videos to watch. ⁓ Instagram accounts to follow, even TikTok accounts, Facebook groups. mean, just like they need to be connected to the community. And if the agency doesn't have a way to get them connected to community, that's a red flag ⁓ because community is extremely healing. mean, just look at our relationship, being able to connect online and ⁓ learn from one another has been a great source of support for me. so families need that well.
Parenting Different: Yeah, and that's bare minimum.
Jessie Mattos: parents. ⁓ And so if you have an agency that's like, I don't know where I would direct a mom to find support. Yeah, that's a little a little concerning. ⁓ know, but yeah, there's so much when it comes to ethics. I really feel like this could be like a five hour podcast. There's so many like little things and it's so hard to know, you know, what is right and wrong. ⁓ And everyone's going to have
Parenting Different: really good. Right.
Jessie Mattos: different opinions, but I think that there are some, there's consistency on some things for sure. Like some of the stuff that we've kind of talked about. ⁓ But yeah, it can be very overwhelming and very intimidating to know where to begin when it comes to adoption and what type of adoption families even want to pursue to begin with.
Parenting Different: Yes. Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: But yeah, there's a lot of, there's so much when it comes to this conversation.
Parenting Different: Yeah, there really is. And I think too, when we, you mentioned open adoption. And let's go there for a minute. Why would adoption, why should that be the standard? Obviously I have my own perspective, but why should that be the standard versus closed adoption? Because again, when you're entering this, birth moms.
Jessie Mattos: Yup.
Parenting Different: are often villainized and they are, know, the, she got pregnant as a teenager. ⁓ she's, you know, can't keep a job. whatever we're, right. And we're saying all these things that are, and that does become the narrative. So I think a lot of adoptive parents walk into it, not necessarily,
Jessie Mattos: She's unstable.
Parenting Different: intentionally fearful, but that's just this narrative that society has placed on birth mothers, unfortunately. So can understand there being a fear, like, okay, open adoption. ⁓ I to ⁓ love child. I'm going to raise this child. I want this child to be mine. ⁓ I want to share. ⁓ I want a co-parent. I don't want, how can we ⁓ help reduce their fear of
Jessie Mattos: they need to listen to birth parent voices. They need to meet birth parents. mean, they need to seek out birth parents in this space that are providing education, one-on-one coaching. There are enough out there that they could find someone to speak to ⁓ and can shed some light on just the birth parent experience because, know, I've...
Parenting Different: Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: shared this with you, like at the beginning of my journey, I wanted nothing to do with the adoption space because I didn't want to be associated with other birth parents because I had my own internalized stigma as of who birth parents were. And I had a lot of shame around my pregnancy, my adoption, and I really struggled with just accepting this part of my life and my story. And when I finally did, when I finally met other birth mothers and
Parenting Different: Get up.
Jessie Mattos: was just in community with them and getting to know them on a personal level, that's when everything changed for me. And I was like, man, these women are just so comfortable with who they are. And I craved that. And it was like a night and day difference. My transformation, it's like pre-community and post-community really is what it was for me. So I just ⁓ that adoptive parents be really intentional with listening to birth parents. stories. ⁓ You know, there's a lot of voices out there and sometimes it can get real noisy and overwhelming and it might feel like, you know, our adoptive parents can they do everything, anything right? And you just kind of have to keep going, you know, like even in my own journey when I first started kind of paying attention and engaging more, there was a lot of stuff that I was listening and reading to and it was was really hard for me to digest. A lot of it hurt to read. It was uncomfortable, ⁓ I needed to hear it. ⁓ like I said earlier, once I started learning about the adoptee experience, even though it was hard to hear, because I wasn't aware of ⁓ the implications of this choice, I didn't know what it was going to do for my child. And so once I started learning, ⁓ Like I said, it kind of gave me that goal to work towards. I'm like, okay, I've got something to work on here. I can adjust. I can do this differently. I could focus on this because I was more in tune to their needs and can show up differently for that relationship. But I had to kind of get through those yucky feelings first before I could get there. If I had just run away and say, nope, I can't handle this, this is too much for me, then I'm not gonna make any progress and I'm not gonna be able to show up for them the way that they deserve me to show up. Because I could do everything right in my adoption and they still not want a relationship with me and that's their choice. And if that is truly their choice, then I want that to be their choice. But at least I know at the end of the day that I'm doing what I can with the skills and the resources and the information that I have to show up well. And it's the same for adoptive parents. Like you need to kind of get through these icky feelings or these uncomfortable feelings. Adoption is uncomfortable. This relationship is weird. And I think if we try to present it as anything else, we're doing everyone a disservice. Just call it what it is, like the elephant in the room. This is a weird relationship. It takes a long time sometimes to get to a point where you are comfortable and familiar with the biological family. But the more stories that you hear, the more people you are connected with, the better supported you're going to be.
Parenting Different: Mm-hmm. It is. 100%, yeah.
Jessie Mattos: just you're going to be able to navigate that so much better and be proactive about that relationship and about certain conversations and really working towards equity within their humanity is one of my favorite ways that it was described. yeah, openness is not just I think a lot of people view it as like, just throw the birth family a bone. Like, oh, we do the visits because we're supposed to. No, open adoption is for this child. If you don't prioritize it, what message are you sending your child? You might be telling them like, ⁓ yeah, your biology and ⁓ you are is really not something that we are like kind of cool with. ⁓ if you are making, yes, yes. So like that secrecy, that shame and just kind of ⁓ the bare minimum when it comes to an open adoption is just not sending the right message to the child. And I think, you ⁓
Parenting Different: Right, you should be ashamed of it.
Jessie Mattos: despite even having access to medical history, like there's so many other reasons why open adoption is important too. think the families get to know the biological family through open adoption and in turn are able to get to know their child better and they can parent them better because they're learning about these characteristics and these inherited traits that came from their biological family. Because you can only nurture the nature out of someone so much. And you you
Parenting Different: Absolutely, yes. Right.
Jessie Mattos: The adoptive parents might have an affinity for art, I don't know, but the child might not be into it. That might not be something that they gravitate towards. That might not be a skill that they possess. And they might be disinterested. There might be something else that they're better at. I don't know, but if you ignore some of these things and if you're not a student of your child, you're gonna miss out on an opportunity to parent them and to nurture them in the way that they need to be nurtured. ⁓ And you can learn a lot about that from their biological parents, know, learning style, temperament, all these different things that you can kind of gain insight from. The biological families are just gonna help support the child as well.
Parenting Different: Absolutely, yes. Right. Well, and from a child's perspective, as adoptees, we love all of our parents. We don't want to disappoint anyone. We know the difference between, and the difference in roles between ⁓ birth parents adoptive parents. We're very clear on that. So if ⁓ parents are about that, getting muddy ⁓ and ⁓ child confused, absolutely not. If you were not worried about them being confused between you and an aunt and uncle or grandparents, also same thing with birth parents and adoptive parents. We're very clear on who is who and we understand their roles. Yeah, it's not complicated. No, and we understand their roles. And I think seeing, being able to see the parents get along and not just tolerate each other for visits, not just do the minimum of,
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah, it's really not like complicated. Yes, it's not a complicated thing. ⁓ Right.
Parenting Different: Six months have passed, let's send a few pictures. ⁓ we've to send an update. Like if you can see them actively investing in that relationship with each other, that gives the child permission to openly love both and not have to protect one or the other.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yeah, children aren't born with like this innate understanding of what a family is supposed to look like. And so whatever they're born into is what's going to be normal for them. ⁓ But yeah, if you're only following, if your state has post adoption contact agreements, if you're only following the PACA ⁓ and that's your relationship, you're doing the bare minimum. The PACA really is the bare minimum. You want to have a relationship where you're not thinking about the PACA.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: or any sort of contact agreement. You want to go beyond that. And something I hear often from families is they don't know what's too much and what's too little when it comes to updates or visits or sending photos or anything else. ⁓ I mean, this is probably the most common thing that I'm discussing with families is where's that line? And... I always recommend families if you don't know, if you're unsure about something, just ask. Just say, we had a really fantastic weekend at the lake and we have a lot of photos and videos. I would love to send them to you, but I want to be sensitive to how you're feeling. Is this a good time or is there a better time to send you those photos? Do you want to see them at all? Send the text before the text and just reach out and ask if you're not sure. Because again, you have to be so intentional about this relationship. And I think there's been this
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: picture painted that adoption is just going to be beautiful and you're going to click, you know, right off the bat. It's going to be, you're going to know everything about this person. And that's just not realistic. That's just not going to happen. You have to get curious about one another and you have to take initiative. You've got to, you can't be afraid to assert yourself in an open adoption relationship. ⁓ Don't be timid about it. You can't be. ⁓ you really do have to challenge yourself. And just because something might feel a little uncomfortable doesn't mean it's something that needs to be avoided altogether. ⁓ And, you know, I've never met a birth mom who has been so triggered because she received too many photos. And when I say too triggered, triggered as in like, she was too triggered that it affected her wellbeing long-term because she received too many photos. And we almost always want more than what we get because we're not parenting our own child. So the relationship will never be like what we like crave, you know? ⁓ And so send those photos, send those updates. And if you're not sure, just ask them. But yeah, when was the last time and I like you went to text me and you were like, ⁓ well I already texted her this month. So I'm gonna wait till next month to reach out.
Parenting Different: Right, it makes sense. Right. Right. Absolutely not. Right. ⁓
Jessie Mattos: that's, you know, build a relationship off of that. And so if you're only following that checklist, that's exactly what you've, ⁓ you know, reduce the relationship to as a checklist. And the child is going to see that and see, well, you know, my parents are just an obligation. And we feel that too, as birth parents, like we're so sensitive to like rejection or, you know, when we know that the family is being hesitant. And that's one of the best things in my own adoption.
Parenting Different: Yeah. child will notice.
Jessie Mattos: that my child's adoptive parents did was I never ever felt resistance from them. I never felt like they were hesitant or like scared or intimidated by me. Yes, it took time to like get used to one another and familiar with one another. But again, I never felt. Yeah, I never felt like I needed to perform for them to be their good graces. And that really helped my just my healing journey because I didn't have to worry about them. I just could.
Parenting Different: course, any new relationship will. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: do what I needed to do, even if it looked messy at times, until I got to a point where I had more consistency in my emotions and I was a little bit more stable in my life. But yeah, I never felt that from them and didn't have to worry about that because there was concern of like, I'm now working in this space. Maybe my education level is a little bit higher than theirs when it comes to adoption education. Are they going to be intimidated by that? That was also like a concern. But that's the reality. I had supportive caseworkers. I hate to say that I got lucky, but I got lucky with the agency staff. And they're a big reason why I'm even sitting here talking to you because I felt empowered to do more. But there was this fear of like, are they going to be intimidated by this? You know, because I think
Parenting Different: Yeah, I'm sure.
Jessie Mattos: that education gap adds to the power imbalance. I think sometimes people kind of want moms to stay where they are. They don't want them to learn more. They don't want them to have more mindfulness about the adoption journey and the adoptee experience and what this relationship looks like. And it keeps them small. You want moms to be empowered to learn more and to be engaged and know what's going on and paying attention to the research that's coming out and everything. ⁓
Parenting Different: Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: So yeah, mean, the relationship could really inspire a mom in many different ways. I know that was, I mean, it's true for my story and I'm really grateful for that. And I know that unfortunately, it's not a lot of stories. So I wish it were.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Right, and I think one thing that you've said, you said this a while ago, I don't know if it was just in conversation or I heard you speaking somewhere, but you said, and I think this is so powerful, revisit the agreement, talk, communicate. Like, hey, is this still working for you? What do you need from us? What do we need from you? Because it could be as simple as now Johnny's on a travel baseball team.
Jessie Mattos: Hahaha Yeah.
Parenting Different: and you don't have the same amount of time anymore, but rather than ignoring mom, communicate that with her and say, hey, this is our situation right now. You know, I hope you understand what can we do to make that up to you? How do you feel in this? And really constantly, because kids grow and change and your life will change and birth mom will get married and have kids and maybe move and have a different career. So many life changes can happen. to everyone involved. so having that open and ongoing conversation about what is working is so important.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yeah, it is. you know, it's tricky because like in open adoptions, people go into this with a lot of high hopes and, you know, bright eyed, bush-tailed, ready to go. And they're ready to commit to all these visits. But, you know, if you're in a different state, logistics for visits, I mean, that alone can be a barrier. And you've got to really consider like, OK, committing to even one visit with anyone.
Parenting Different: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Mattos: every year is a lot, know, especially as lives get a little busy and things happen, but also financial situations can change too. Anyone's financial situation can change overnight. And you've got to be prepared for these life changes and not commit to something if you really don't think it's going to be feasible. If planning a trip every year out of state is going to be too much or overwhelming after year two,
Parenting Different: for
Jessie Mattos: That might not be the situation that you want to present on. You might want to find someone that's local, lives a little bit closer, that's going to be easier. But also when it comes to visits, if you are traveling out of mean, even if you're traveling in state, like don't just go for lunch and back, you know, like you're staying for a couple of days. This is not like a quick little, here again, throw you a bone. ⁓ We know we'll meet you for a couple hours at a.
Parenting Different: Right. Check the box, yeah.
Jessie Mattos: playground and then see you later. No, like be prepared to spend a couple days there and be intentional with the visits and it doesn't have to be complicated either. I think a lot of aspects of open adoption are over complicated. Granted it can be a complicated relationship, but don't overthink it. And so go to the visit, find some things to do around town. If mom grew up in that town, maybe just drive around town and go to her favorite spots or where she grew up, you know, playing.
Parenting Different: So good. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: soccer, I don't know, or her favorite coffee shop, little things like that because that's telling a story. The child's learning about their family and it's an easy thing to do. Yes, right. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, you really just have to evaluate is this feasible for us because yeah, trips are a lot. ⁓ you know, I've seen things change for families right after adoption.
Parenting Different: Right, be interested in her and her life. And that will build bridges too.
Jessie Mattos: You know, year one or two, all of sudden their life circumstance change or they move or something happens. And it's so hard because unless you have several years of consistent visits and the relationship is progressing, if there's some changes that happen early on, that's going to be really, really, really hard to come back from. ⁓ would, if... If something happens at like year eight, like I said, there's been consistency and you say, hey, this year's tough for us or something happens, you know, what else can we do like, you know, to accommodate or adjust that's different because you've had years of building that foundation and building that trust. But those changes like early on are going to be really hard to navigate it and come back from if there is conflict surrounding any. changes because yeah, life does happen. so be prepared those first couple of years you are building that trust. You are establishing that foundation. You are getting familiar with one another. The goal for those first couple of years is for the adoptive parents and the biological parents to really get to know each other well because the child can't engage in the relationship yet. They're just a little baby, little sack of potatoes that can't have an independent relationship. And so that is the focus is building that relationship.
Parenting Different: Yes. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ and making sure that those first few years, you're not changing anything. You have to be consistent and then be proactive with any conversations. Don't wait for mom to reach out. know, if something happens like you need to initiate, you've got to be again, so like I've said this word a million times, but be proactive. Reach out first, let her know, be honest about, you know, what's going on ⁓ and then go from there. But
Parenting Different: Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, it takes a lot of effort. It's not going to be this magical thing that's going to be amazing right off the bat. Sometimes it is. Sometimes there's no, so there's no issues, but sometimes it just takes a while to get to know one another. You know, and when you have limitations set from the beginning of a relationship, it can be even harder to get to know one another as well. ⁓ Which say like, which is why I said, if an agency only offers like a third party app to communicate like that to me, come on, like just give each other your phone number.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: We're not going to come to your house and hunt you down. ⁓ We're really not a threat. I promise. Believe it or not. ⁓ But yeah, we're just not as scary as think media and society. Yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. you made this choice for a reason. And I think that that is, I think that's another thing I heard from you too, is like, you made this choice for a reason. You're not going to hunt anyone down and try and kidnap your child back. Like it's not crazy. And I think if adoptive parents look at it too, you both love the same child. And so rather than it being a competition, how much love, Can you pour into this child together? So that again, it goes back to that confidence. So someday when they can talk and when they can voice their opinions, they aren't ashamed in any way, or form to say, you know what? I want to go do visit, like say they're 15, 16. I want to go do that visit by myself this year. then adoptive parents already know
Jessie Mattos: Mm-hmm.
Parenting Different: because they've developed that relationship. She's stable. She has a great home. She has a family. No problem. Are they going to be nervous? Sure. Like we're not expecting you to not have some feelings about it, but you at least be confident in that so that, and so that child is not feeling like, I'm not telling you that I don't love you and I don't want you. I just want my own time with my birth parents. And I think those kinds of conversations, I don't think adoptive parents realize how hard those are adoptees to have and how hard it is for adoptees to voice those things. Well, we said they can tell us anything or they can ask us any questions. But does face say your words say that? Does your face say it? Do your actions say that? Because we don't want to destroy that relationship. We love the parents that have raised us. We also love our birth family and where we came from, too. And so it's very
Jessie Mattos: Right.
Parenting Different: It's tricky for the kids, but like you said, if you can establish that relationship when they're a sack of potatoes, then there will be more of a comfort level later and allow the adoptee that autonomy to be able to speak their mind.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah, right. They're going to feel much more comfortable and they're going to feel more secure with their adoptive parents as well. And I think that's one thing as families think that they have to not minimize the biological parents, but the more interest that they show in the biological family and the more effort you put in, the more secure the child is going to feel with their families. so, you know, going back to like ethics and just education, like you want to, you want an agency that's talking about these things and you want an agency that's going to say things that you don't want to hear.
Parenting Different: Absolutely. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Like that again, this whole adoption in general is like get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And that includes hearing some hard things because your agency should not be solely should have a catering to the needs and the desires of the adoptive parents. And they're going to say things that might upset you, that might trigger something and Honestly, I wish more agencies were a little bit more honest with things and told families like this is not okay or this this thinking is wrong or you need more therapy. You need more education in this area. You want an agency to say that you want someone who is going to say, hey, I think you need to go back to therapy for your infertility grief. I think you guys need to maybe take a pause.
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: This is something that you're struggling with. can see that you're still a little uncomfortable with this conversation or this topic. I think you need to become more familiar with this. Here's our recommendations. Here's our resources, you whatever it might be. You want an agency that's going to challenge you because almost every single adoptive parent, you know, when they get back and they're now parenting and they're trying to figure this out, that's where the real work begins. And so many times we hear families are like, I was not prepared.
Parenting Different: Yeah. percent.
Jessie Mattos: for this all the time, happens all the time.
Parenting Different: Right. Which is exactly why parenting different exists because of that. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Right, right. So you want an extremely supportive agency there and one that is not just going to tell you what you want to hear and sugarcoat things ⁓ because this is real life that we're dealing with. And the reality is, is there are so many aspects of adoption that are evolving ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ the ⁓ research coming. ⁓ We're always learning. So you have to stay engaged and you have to stay up to date. And if your agency is not doing that, you know, that's, that's an issue because you want, you want an agency that is tuning in and paying attention and consistently trying to, to be better and to do better for families and children. Yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. Right, and don't take it personally. It's not, it's again, child focused, right? If we're keeping the child at the center, then don't be insulted by them saying you need to do more work, you need more education, more therapy, whatever. That's a gift. That's a gift to you. That's a gift to your child. That's a gift to your future family to be more prepared on the front end rather than in the middle of crisis or when you're struggling.
Jessie Mattos: bright. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, I, there's, look back and like even five years ago, I'm like, man, like there was so much I still, I just don't know then, you know? And so to think that you're going to, everything's going to be fine and you know everything. I mean, you're just, it's going to be so much harder for, for you, for families if they just aren't willing to lean in and, and pay attention and get involved to get plugged in. ⁓
Parenting Different: Yeah. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: Like I said, there's a lot of voices out there and there's a lot of noise, but, you know, after a while you start to kind of figure out the landscape and figure out what is quality and what is going to work for your own adoption and how you can best support the child through an open adoption. But yeah, it's it is tricky and it can be very, very overwhelming. And one of my favorite books, actually, it's somewhere
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Somewhere, one my favorite books that I recommend families ⁓ who are considering adoption is a workbook called Before You Adopt that has a ton of fantastic questions that really narrow down like what adoption option is going to be right for a family, ⁓ whether that's foster care, international, domestic. But some of the other questions are just really great about birth parents and like your perception of birth parents going into this. ⁓ You know, there's one thing that I see often is a lot of times adoptive parents are coming into this relationship with a lot more resources and privilege. And some of these these families have not had a lot of exposure to different lifestyles, different people, ⁓ different beliefs, all sorts of things. And if you are not very tolerant of. others and different people and different life experiences, that might be a bit of a struggle. The relationship might be a bit of a struggle for you. ⁓ And, you know, it's, it's always sad to see what a family is just like, you know, they've never maybe spoken to someone who struggles with mental health in a certain capacity or is struggling with ⁓
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: with addiction or things like that. Like if you don't have experience with lots of different life's choices and not even choices, but situations, try to familiarize yourself with people in general.
Parenting Different: Right. And so I think it's so important to learn and step out of your comfort zone because it's really not actually that uncomfortable once you do it.
Jessie Mattos: Right, yeah. Right? Unfamiliar does not mean unsafe. So get familiar with different people, different lifestyles. Even if someone is not in a situation where they're unstable, they could just have different belief systems from you. That doesn't mean that they're bad.
Parenting Different: rights. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: right, or unsafe. And so if you really have not experienced a lot of variety of people and situations in your life, maybe you consider not presenting on a case that is so vastly different from what you have been exposed to. ⁓ So you've really got to do a lot of self check, checking along the way and, you know, make sure, am I just eager?
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: overeager or is this really something that is going to be, you know, right for this child? ⁓ Because yeah, if you're not able to enter this relationship and see them for their humanity, it's their child's going to feel that majorly and it's going to make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. So really assess is this the right situation for us to present on. ⁓ Is this something that we can learn more about or, you know, and again, you want an agency who is going to challenge you and see some of these things and guide you and support you and point you in the right direction. ⁓ But yeah, there's a lot of you need a lot of self-awareness and to kind of do this well and. really, really good communication skills as well, ⁓ which most people lack, unfortunately. But ⁓ yeah, you want an agency that's just going to be able to support all of these things. You know, I don't recommend people self-match to me. don't don't do it. Don't self-match. There's so many risks for that, which that's a whole other podcast. But yeah, ⁓ with an agency and even with a like
Parenting Different: Yeah. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Sometimes just working with an attorney isn't enough. mean, most of time it's not enough. Work with an agency that has resources. So when people are looking for ethical entities, know, don't self-match, work with an agency, ⁓ people who have resources and support and services, you know, beyond just the legal paperwork. So, you know.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Well, I want to go back to one thing you said, the self matching, because I have heard that ⁓ as a reason, ⁓ like ethics as a reason to self match, then you're not money through an entity. Which logically, okay, great. Why would that not work? Why would that be a problem?
Jessie Mattos: Well, I mean, you still have to pay lawyers to be social money involved, right? And home state and all that kind of stuff. But yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. But I think they're thinking like they're handing over and allowing a third party to profit off of it, if that makes sense.
Jessie Mattos: Right. And I understand that argument too. And that's certainly something that I've heard, but there's just too much risk and self matching. you're, you want mom to have support. You want her to have her own legal representation. She's not going to get that if you're self matching, unless you're willing to find and pay for, you know, her own attorney kind of thing. But even then there's, that can be tricky because who knows what attorney you're going to have her work with. She needs her own advocate, a caseworker that's gonna be supporting her. She needs to have someone who's gonna be able to talk her through her options, assess her needs, go through everything with her to make sure that all other options have been exhausted before the adoption takes place. When it comes to self-matching, a lot of times moms don't have that support. There's also a lot of risk in scams. a good agency or professional is going to be able to spot someone who is maybe lying about their pregnancy. So you want confirmation of pregnancy as well. But yeah, it just opens the door to a lot of coercion. ⁓ You're not having anyone supporting you and managing the communication. birth parent expenses still come up as well in self matching. And then that just becomes also an exchange. So yeah, it's There's too much risk, there's not enough support. And I think in a lot of ways, self matching can be predatory, depending on how you are approaching self matching. There's those Facebook groups that people can self match on, which ⁓ not a thing. Like we're not even allowed to rehome a dog on Facebook. So why is this okay, right? Yeah, on Facebook. Yeah, it just gets real icky real fast. And you know, it's...
Parenting Different: Right. Why children? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: I see a lot of families go into self-matching who are fantastic families. And I see a lot of this knowing that many families are pursuing these different avenues without realizing what is happening.
Parenting Different: Right. They're doing it for the right reasons. yeah.
Jessie Mattos: most of the time, but yes, like it's, you understand that, yeah, it's, not, I don't want to come down on families or make them feel like you're doing everything wrong or how dare you not know this, but sometimes you don't know what you don't know, but there's just so much risk and there's not enough support when it comes to self matching. And it's just not worth it. It's not worth it to me. And a lot, for a lot of reasons, not just, you know, obviously for the birth parents, but for the adoptive parents and the child as well.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly. Yeah, well, and I think even those Facebook pages, we've both seen them. I mean, some of the things that are said is just, and that's not just prospective adoptive parents, even from the birth mother side. I'm like, ⁓ what are you doing? First of all, why would you give that much information? why would, like, there's so many things that need to be protected on all sides. So, yeah. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yes. lot of things.
Parenting Different: Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your wisdom, your insight into this super important topic. And ⁓ I just appreciate you being here.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, thanks for having me. This is an important conversation to have. And like we said, there's so much more that we can't fit and it all intertwines all what we're talking about. So yeah, I appreciate you having me on
Jessie Mattos: out
Parenting Different: birth mother perspective and ethics and just really ensuring that birth mothers are seen and heard throughout the adoption process. So welcome, Jessie Introduce yourself to us and tell us a little bit about what you do today.
Jessie Mattos: Thanks. Yeah, so my name is Jessie Mattos I'm a birth mom and work for Abiding Love Charities as the director of Birth Mother program. So I oversee all of our post-placement care services ⁓ for parents, I do a lot of work with adoptive parents as well, providing them with the necessary support that they ⁓ need after. after adoption. It seems like there's a lot of focus on support and education prior, but then what happens afterwards and that's kind of where we come in. I've been working in this space for like almost a decade. At this point, I've been involved in this space for much longer than that. But yeah, I love doing this stuff. Like you said, ⁓ want women to be informed and I want them to make a confident decision, ⁓ that they want to make. ⁓ not based on anyone else's opinions or feelings. ⁓ And so really just my goal and my work is to support women with also a focus on the adoptee experience. I think that when it comes to even the birth parent experience and our healing journey, if we can kind of find a goal to work towards when it comes to, you know, the child and the adoptee experience, I think that that can help us navigate this journey better. I think that it also helps us express our maternal care if we are learning about that experience and what ways we can show up for our child. So that is like, the heart of lot of my work is how do we make even our journey adoptee centered in a way. So yeah, that's just a little bit, a little bit about me. ⁓
Parenting Different: I love that. I love that you do center the adoptee in that too, because I think we talk often about how the birth moms sometimes get left out of the conversation and so adoptive parent centered, but really it should be all the way around, adoptee centered from both sets of parents, because the child, we're making decisions for the child. The child does not get a say in that. And so we've got to make sure that we're doing the right thing for the child's life because this isn't just a one time event. It is changing the course of their life. So when we talk about ethics, very layered, Like what, everybody's going to have a different opinion on that. Everybody's going, some people say, adoption should be banned altogether. Some people think there's no problem in it at all. This is a great thing and... you know, the adoptive parents are saving the world by adopting these babies, right? So we have such a broad spectrum, which I could get on a whole tangent on that one. That's a different episode. But there is such a wide range of opinions from all sides on adoption. And so tell me a little bit about what, when you think of ethics, what...
Jessie Mattos: That's for a different podcast.
Parenting Different: What comes to your mind and what are you looking for in those situations?
Jessie Mattos: Sure, the word ethics is so loaded. Like you said, people are gonna have a bunch of different opinions on it. And so I think it's hard when you hear that word, because when there's, to be honest, a lot of money involved in something, especially when it comes to a child, you have that question of like, is this ethical at all? And so for the sake of this conversation, we are gonna use that word. ⁓ But yeah, it is a complicated.
Parenting Different: Yes.
Jessie Mattos: thing to figure out what is ethical, what is right, what is good. I would love to live in a perfect world where adoption didn't exist. And unfortunately, we are working within the system that's been set up for us and trying to change it to the best of our abilities. And that's a slow and painful process sometimes. But we could go on and on about.
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: ethics and adoption and what that really looks like. And we do not have time to cover everything. ⁓ But there might be some things that we can kind of discuss here and maybe give some direction for families who are just starting out. yeah, when it comes to ethics, ⁓ be, ⁓ can look different for everyone that people have different definitions of ethics, which makes it even harder. ⁓
Parenting Different: for you. Yeah. Yeah, I, right, exactly. But I think what is good is in this conversation that has been happening, I know I get emails about it, I get messages on social media, because I work on more the parent side of adoption. And so, or the adoptive parent side, I should say. And so the message that I'm getting are either from adoptive parents who adopted a long time ago going, ⁓ no, I think I did something really, really wrong. Or I'm just starting out and I've heard that there's a lot of things within the adoption space. I want to do it right. What do I do and where do I go and what do I look for? So I think it's really good that these conversations are happening. We're starting to see like a shift, but how do we give them direction? Where do we tell them to go? What, you know, there's just so many things. So what are some basic things that an adoptive family is just starting out, what are they looking for? What some red flags? What are green flags? What are some things that they should be kind of walking in with their eyes wide open?
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, mean, first things first, make sure whoever you're working with or considering working with is licensed in your state. You can figure that out. Go to adoptchange.org to find if an agency or an attorney is licensed in that state. ⁓ you do not want to work with someone who is not licensed to facilitate ⁓
Parenting Different: Bye.
Jessie Mattos: And so that site is really good for families to check out to figure that out. then also check for any violations or complaints made on the state licensing page for any agencies and then utilize social media. There's so many Facebook groups that people are sharing insight in and you can join them and just search for the agency name. If don't see it, you can always post and even post anonymously asking for insight. I see that all the time. But you're going to get a variety of experiences and feedback from people. so you really just have to look for some patterns and some themes and of the things that you're might be hearing or reading. But social media can a bit of a ⁓ dumpster fire, but it can be a really good tool if you know how to use it. So I certainly recommend people, you know, reach out, ⁓ word of mouth. try to listen to others' experiences. And don't just listen to adopted parents, but try to, if you can, find information from birth parents as well and their experience working with the agency. That would be like the first steps there.
Parenting Different: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, right. So what would be so beyond that we found one that has, you know, maybe good reviews, it looks good. Where, where do we go beyond that? Beyond the maybe the marketing beyond the few good experiences? Where? How do we dig in and really see what they're actually doing or what it actually is all about.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, I mean, when it comes to fees, you want an agency that's gonna be upfront with their fees. Yes, sometimes there are circumstances where there might be an unexpected cost, but if there's consistently like... there's changes to those feeds and they keep tacking things on, that's a red flag. You want them to be upfront with these feeds and you want to understand exactly what you're kind of getting yourself into when it comes to that. So if you're, again, if your agency starts to kind of tack on, we've got this, oh, I forgot about this, like that's definitely something to be concerned about. But also when it comes to... not just like the fees, but even with the birth parent expenses as well. I think it's important to ask them how they're managing these birth parent expenses, because it should be pregnancy related expenses for the birth parents. ⁓ So if they're handing cash, large sums of cash, if they're not being forthcoming with what they're paying for and covering, that's... could be a bit of a red flag. And it's okay to lean in and ask these questions. think families sometimes get a little intimidated. They're like, ⁓ I just don't know enough. But if something feels weird, it probably is weird. So lean into that, trust your gut and ask those questions. Ask for clarification, tell them you don't understand. Even if you have to say it five different times to get the answer and information that you need, ⁓ do it. Because this is... You don't want to look back on your journey like you were talking about how there's some families that look back and they're like, ⁓ shoot, like am I part of the problem? You don't want to look back on your experience and regret not asking those questions or not trusting your gut because I meet those families that feel guilty and feel bad because the birth family wasn't treated the way that they should have been treated.
Parenting Different: Bye.
Jessie Mattos: That's the information that's part of the child's story. They're going to find that information out, whether it comes from the adoptive parents or comes from their biological parents. It's all going to come out in the wash. And so you want to be able to navigate this with confidence. ⁓ so lean in and ask those questions and don't just assume, just don't know what I'm doing. And that's why it doesn't make sense. And, you know, there's
Parenting Different: Exactly. Yes, it will.
Jessie Mattos: goodness gracious, there's so many other things. Are they transporting women out of state? You know, that's a big thing. There are very, very, very, very, very few reasons why a mother would be transported to a different state. So if an agency is flying women or busing women out to their state to facilitate the adoption, that is a red flag. I say there are very, very few reasons. I mean, to be honest, I don't even know if there is a really good reason to transport women out of state.
Parenting Different: Yeah, for sure.
Jessie Mattos: for an adoption and then also ask for ongoing care for the women as well, during their pregnancy and afterwards, are they being provided options counseling? Are they only speaking to the social worker at the agency or are they being provided other options for therapists outside of the agency? ⁓ Is there aftercare for her set up? Do they have a limit or cap on therapy needs as well? ⁓ For example, there's some situations where an agency might provide six weeks worth of therapy, that's not enough. Or they say we provide therapy in the first year. Most moms are not seeking support and therapy within that first year. So it doesn't make sense to cut it off after that year because it takes a couple of years in a lot of situations for a mom to get to a point where she's ready to receive that support and maybe even being consistent with it. if there's like hard limitations and on that type of support,
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: That could also be a red flag there as well. And also ask how many adoptions are doing a year. I mean, if they're doing like hundreds of adoptions a year, that's a red flag ⁓ because that's a lot of adoptions and how are, how is that happening? And then also matching, ask when they match. ⁓ If an agency is matching within the first trimester or even at the beginning of the second trimester for the moms, that's a red flag too.
Parenting Different: Right, why? Yeah. Right.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ You really want an agency that is supporting her and again, providing her options counseling, making sure that this is a decision that she wants to make and not matching her really early on because then that could open the door to coercion even in really subtle ways. ⁓ You want an agency that is kind of waiting until closer to the third trimester before matching. just to make sure that this is a decision that she wants to make and there aren't any outside factors that are applying pressure to her decision.
Parenting Different: I think one thing that I've heard of birth moms say, and I didn't even really consider this because I guess from my perspective, and I guess I'm in a different place in life too, but I don't owe anyone anything is kind of my attitude. But I know a lot of birth mothers have said that after matching, they feel the pressure to follow through because they don't want to break someone's heart.
Jessie Mattos: There's a lot of others.
Parenting Different: And that is, that's an overwhelming weight that they should never have to carry. And where is that coming from? Is that pressure coming from the agency? Is that pressure coming from, you know, the prospective parents? Where is that pressure coming from? Because that should not be a pressure that they are having to carry at all.
Jessie Mattos: It is. And it's a good question because pressure doesn't always, and coercion isn't always like ugly in your face. ⁓ can be positive adoption can be coercive. So if there's a lot of like ⁓ talk about selfless ⁓ this decision
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: how courageous and strong she is for considering adoption. If there's a lot of emphasis on adoption, but they're not saying the same thing about parenting, like that could be coercive, you know, because it's equally as, you know, you don't want someone to feel like she would be considered selfish should she also be considering parenting. So even paying attention to the type of language that's on the website or how her advocate or caseworker is speaking to her.
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ that stuff can really kind of seep into a woman's decision because when you are in a crisis mode, the part of your brain that controls rational thinking is just not working great. And so people might hear like, women really placing because they are afraid to hurt someone's feelings? Yes, it happens. Again, it's so hard to figure out what you need, what you want to do when you're in crisis.
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: and hard to advocate for yourself when you're in that. And you can easily feel swayed to do something or make a decision that you aren't really sure you want to make. and that can be hard for, I think, adoptive parents to ⁓ to pick up on sometimes. and you know, mom might have feelings after the, after the fact.
Parenting Different: share.
Jessie Mattos: which is why I'm a fan of revocation periods. But, you know, I think families need to also be mindful ⁓ how the agency is managing the communication between them as well. Are they using third party means of communication like apps and things like that? ⁓ If that is the standard, to me, that's a red flag. If they're just automatically, if an agency is automatically getting the families connected through an app to communicate, there's really, again, there's really not a great need for that. Just communicate with your phone numbers. And also how often. So again, the agency should kind of be monitoring the conversations and making sure, it doesn't mean they need to be necessarily like in that text thread. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not, but. You know, agency that's looking out for the mom is definitely going to be cautious of the types of conversations that the family is having with them, how often they're communicating and just being mindful of like, hey, if this level and this pattern of communication is not sustainable, you know, after baby comes home or whatever, like don't start that habit or that pattern prior. Because there are situations where families get really excited and that's understandable, but
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: Are you going to be able to FaceTime for two hours every single day after the baby's born? Probably not. So take a look at your other relationships that you're having, your other communication patterns and see, okay, I don't have any other relationship that looks like this. We don't talk this often because again, ⁓ apply pressure to the mom. so ⁓ managing isn't just about ⁓ you know, the type of conversations, but it's also the frequency and the means of communication as well. You want this relationship to be organic and comfortable. And if you're setting unrealistic expectations of how communication is going to be, then you're just setting yourself up for failure later on you're just gonna run into conflict when you aren't able to keep that level of communication up.
Parenting Different: Exactly. And I think too, this is obviously my own perspective, but from the adoptee side, when you're entering these conversations and as a perspective, adoptive parent walking into the agency and hearing these things, how are they speaking about the birth mother? Are they, ⁓ she's just low life, got nothing, can't parent, you know? are those the, is that the attitude towards the birth parent? Because if that is the case, then they're not going to support them. They're not going to help them if they decide to parent. They're not going to walk with them through that grief afterwards because, well, they weren't qualified to be a parent, so therefore they shouldn't be. And that, that narrative, and even like what you said, glorifying the the birth parent. when you're saying, you're so selfless, ⁓ what a great choice. What you're the adoptee, ⁓ unintentionally, I don't believe that it intentional, but what you are telling the adoptee is, loved you so much she left you. So now, love equals leaving. ⁓ You... were not wanted, those words may never come out of their mouth, ever. But that's the message I got, that my mom loved me so much, but there was such a problem with her that she gave me away because, so love leaves, but then I have my adoptive parents saying, would never leave you, we'll never make it make sense in a child's brain.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right.
Parenting Different: because it doesn't, there is no logic to that. And so you're hurting unintentionally, that narrative is hurting the child too. So, and I tell this story over and over, I truly thought that kids who were adopted were unwanted children. And it wasn't until I was an adult meeting other birth mothers talking, I mean, you were very instrumental in this, in changing my perspective on birth mothers, because all of a sudden I was like, They wanted their babies. They would have parented if they could have. And so that whole shift of feeling, and that's how many, probably 30 plus years of my life, believing that I was an unwanted child. Nobody told me I was unwanted, but that was the message that was received because of that narrative. So I think it's really important to listen to how they're speaking about the birth mother.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah.
Parenting Different: listen to what they are saying and really think about it from a child's perspective. How could a child interpret this? And that will tell a lot about what the agency is all about too.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Like I know you and I have had conversations about this, but you we don't place our child because we love them so much. We place our child because love was not enough. ⁓ That's not the love is not the reason why we place. There's probably multiple reasons why we place. ⁓ But it's not love. Like I think it's OK for families to just say like your birth mom loved you period.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly. Right. Right, it doesn't need to be this. And I get what they're trying to do, but it causes more damage than you're even intending to. Saying nothing, I think, would be better than that. Because it does, how does a child rationalize that? They can't. Because she gave birth to you, we're so grateful that she gave you life, we're so grateful that she loved you enough.
Jessie Mattos: Yes. Right.
Parenting Different: to let us parent you and all of these things, but then your parents aren't supposed to leave you. So why is it good for her to have left me, but you guys aren't supposed to? What is happening here? And it just it messes up a child's brain well into adulthood for me. And maybe that's maybe that's a saying something about me. I don't know. But it's a it's a narrative that should never have even been placed in my
Jessie Mattos: Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's just too abstract for children. that whole thought anyway. ⁓ Because that's not the facts. they, at such a young age, like that you just rely on the facts of their story. Age appropriate, obviously. But like, just be honest. Like, of why she wasn't able to parent or didn't have the resources of support or whatever it might be. Because yeah, love is not the...
Parenting Different: it was. Right. Exactly. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: reason why we place. So yeah, mean, there's people are going to have lots of different opinions on that as well. ⁓ know I've certainly heard even from other birth parents like, well, no, I placed because I love them so much. And it's like, sure. Okay. ⁓ ⁓ not again, ⁓ logistical reasons ⁓ that. ⁓ yeah, the language is a big thing. ⁓
Parenting Different: There are more layers to it than that. Right.
Jessie Mattos: like we were talking earlier, like just even that positive language, not even just negative stuff. But yeah, if they're really just kind of. bleh about the mom and seem kind of like annoyed or frustrated with her. I mean, it's just, that's going to seep into the adoption relationship and the open adoption. And so make sure that your agency is providing a lot of education, not just, you know, the bare minimum home study education and talking about these things and talking about the open adoption as well. You know, to me, I wish closed adoptions were not even an option. And so if an agency is doing a lot of closed adoptions, that's the red flag. You know, you want them to be supportive when it comes to an open adoption. You want them to be able to provide resources outside resources, not just to the adoptive parents, but to the birth parents as well. ⁓ If a caseworker advocate doesn't know of any resources for birth parents, that's a huge ⁓ flag. ⁓ should know of other resources available to them like Facebook groups, podcasts, videos to watch. ⁓ Instagram accounts to follow, even TikTok accounts, Facebook groups. mean, just like they need to be connected to the community. And if the agency doesn't have a way to get them connected to community, that's a red flag ⁓ because community is extremely healing. mean, just look at our relationship, being able to connect online and ⁓ learn from one another has been a great source of support for me. so families need that well.
Parenting Different: Yeah, and that's bare minimum.
Jessie Mattos: parents. ⁓ And so if you have an agency that's like, I don't know where I would direct a mom to find support. Yeah, that's a little a little concerning. ⁓ know, but yeah, there's so much when it comes to ethics. I really feel like this could be like a five hour podcast. There's so many like little things and it's so hard to know, you know, what is right and wrong. ⁓ And everyone's going to have
Parenting Different: really good. Right.
Jessie Mattos: different opinions, but I think that there are some, there's consistency on some things for sure. Like some of the stuff that we've kind of talked about. ⁓ But yeah, it can be very overwhelming and very intimidating to know where to begin when it comes to adoption and what type of adoption families even want to pursue to begin with.
Parenting Different: Yes. Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: But yeah, there's a lot of, there's so much when it comes to this conversation.
Parenting Different: Yeah, there really is. And I think too, when we, you mentioned open adoption. And let's go there for a minute. Why would adoption, why should that be the standard? Obviously I have my own perspective, but why should that be the standard versus closed adoption? Because again, when you're entering this, birth moms.
Jessie Mattos: Yup.
Parenting Different: are often villainized and they are, know, the, she got pregnant as a teenager. ⁓ she's, you know, can't keep a job. whatever we're, right. And we're saying all these things that are, and that does become the narrative. So I think a lot of adoptive parents walk into it, not necessarily,
Jessie Mattos: She's unstable.
Parenting Different: intentionally fearful, but that's just this narrative that society has placed on birth mothers, unfortunately. So can understand there being a fear, like, okay, open adoption. ⁓ I to ⁓ love child. I'm going to raise this child. I want this child to be mine. ⁓ I want to share. ⁓ I want a co-parent. I don't want, how can we ⁓ help reduce their fear of
Jessie Mattos: they need to listen to birth parent voices. They need to meet birth parents. mean, they need to seek out birth parents in this space that are providing education, one-on-one coaching. There are enough out there that they could find someone to speak to ⁓ and can shed some light on just the birth parent experience because, know, I've...
Parenting Different: Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: shared this with you, like at the beginning of my journey, I wanted nothing to do with the adoption space because I didn't want to be associated with other birth parents because I had my own internalized stigma as of who birth parents were. And I had a lot of shame around my pregnancy, my adoption, and I really struggled with just accepting this part of my life and my story. And when I finally did, when I finally met other birth mothers and
Parenting Different: Get up.
Jessie Mattos: was just in community with them and getting to know them on a personal level, that's when everything changed for me. And I was like, man, these women are just so comfortable with who they are. And I craved that. And it was like a night and day difference. My transformation, it's like pre-community and post-community really is what it was for me. So I just ⁓ that adoptive parents be really intentional with listening to birth parents. stories. ⁓ You know, there's a lot of voices out there and sometimes it can get real noisy and overwhelming and it might feel like, you know, our adoptive parents can they do everything, anything right? And you just kind of have to keep going, you know, like even in my own journey when I first started kind of paying attention and engaging more, there was a lot of stuff that I was listening and reading to and it was was really hard for me to digest. A lot of it hurt to read. It was uncomfortable, ⁓ I needed to hear it. ⁓ like I said earlier, once I started learning about the adoptee experience, even though it was hard to hear, because I wasn't aware of ⁓ the implications of this choice, I didn't know what it was going to do for my child. And so once I started learning, ⁓ Like I said, it kind of gave me that goal to work towards. I'm like, okay, I've got something to work on here. I can adjust. I can do this differently. I could focus on this because I was more in tune to their needs and can show up differently for that relationship. But I had to kind of get through those yucky feelings first before I could get there. If I had just run away and say, nope, I can't handle this, this is too much for me, then I'm not gonna make any progress and I'm not gonna be able to show up for them the way that they deserve me to show up. Because I could do everything right in my adoption and they still not want a relationship with me and that's their choice. And if that is truly their choice, then I want that to be their choice. But at least I know at the end of the day that I'm doing what I can with the skills and the resources and the information that I have to show up well. And it's the same for adoptive parents. Like you need to kind of get through these icky feelings or these uncomfortable feelings. Adoption is uncomfortable. This relationship is weird. And I think if we try to present it as anything else, we're doing everyone a disservice. Just call it what it is, like the elephant in the room. This is a weird relationship. It takes a long time sometimes to get to a point where you are comfortable and familiar with the biological family. But the more stories that you hear, the more people you are connected with, the better supported you're going to be.
Parenting Different: Mm-hmm. It is. 100%, yeah.
Jessie Mattos: just you're going to be able to navigate that so much better and be proactive about that relationship and about certain conversations and really working towards equity within their humanity is one of my favorite ways that it was described. yeah, openness is not just I think a lot of people view it as like, just throw the birth family a bone. Like, oh, we do the visits because we're supposed to. No, open adoption is for this child. If you don't prioritize it, what message are you sending your child? You might be telling them like, ⁓ yeah, your biology and ⁓ you are is really not something that we are like kind of cool with. ⁓ if you are making, yes, yes. So like that secrecy, that shame and just kind of ⁓ the bare minimum when it comes to an open adoption is just not sending the right message to the child. And I think, you ⁓
Parenting Different: Right, you should be ashamed of it.
Jessie Mattos: despite even having access to medical history, like there's so many other reasons why open adoption is important too. think the families get to know the biological family through open adoption and in turn are able to get to know their child better and they can parent them better because they're learning about these characteristics and these inherited traits that came from their biological family. Because you can only nurture the nature out of someone so much. And you you
Parenting Different: Absolutely, yes. Right.
Jessie Mattos: The adoptive parents might have an affinity for art, I don't know, but the child might not be into it. That might not be something that they gravitate towards. That might not be a skill that they possess. And they might be disinterested. There might be something else that they're better at. I don't know, but if you ignore some of these things and if you're not a student of your child, you're gonna miss out on an opportunity to parent them and to nurture them in the way that they need to be nurtured. ⁓ And you can learn a lot about that from their biological parents, know, learning style, temperament, all these different things that you can kind of gain insight from. The biological families are just gonna help support the child as well.
Parenting Different: Absolutely, yes. Right. Well, and from a child's perspective, as adoptees, we love all of our parents. We don't want to disappoint anyone. We know the difference between, and the difference in roles between ⁓ birth parents adoptive parents. We're very clear on that. So if ⁓ parents are about that, getting muddy ⁓ and ⁓ child confused, absolutely not. If you were not worried about them being confused between you and an aunt and uncle or grandparents, also same thing with birth parents and adoptive parents. We're very clear on who is who and we understand their roles. Yeah, it's not complicated. No, and we understand their roles. And I think seeing, being able to see the parents get along and not just tolerate each other for visits, not just do the minimum of,
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah, it's really not like complicated. Yes, it's not a complicated thing. ⁓ Right.
Parenting Different: Six months have passed, let's send a few pictures. ⁓ we've to send an update. Like if you can see them actively investing in that relationship with each other, that gives the child permission to openly love both and not have to protect one or the other.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yeah, children aren't born with like this innate understanding of what a family is supposed to look like. And so whatever they're born into is what's going to be normal for them. ⁓ But yeah, if you're only following, if your state has post adoption contact agreements, if you're only following the PACA ⁓ and that's your relationship, you're doing the bare minimum. The PACA really is the bare minimum. You want to have a relationship where you're not thinking about the PACA.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: or any sort of contact agreement. You want to go beyond that. And something I hear often from families is they don't know what's too much and what's too little when it comes to updates or visits or sending photos or anything else. ⁓ I mean, this is probably the most common thing that I'm discussing with families is where's that line? And... I always recommend families if you don't know, if you're unsure about something, just ask. Just say, we had a really fantastic weekend at the lake and we have a lot of photos and videos. I would love to send them to you, but I want to be sensitive to how you're feeling. Is this a good time or is there a better time to send you those photos? Do you want to see them at all? Send the text before the text and just reach out and ask if you're not sure. Because again, you have to be so intentional about this relationship. And I think there's been this
Parenting Different: Right.
Jessie Mattos: picture painted that adoption is just going to be beautiful and you're going to click, you know, right off the bat. It's going to be, you're going to know everything about this person. And that's just not realistic. That's just not going to happen. You have to get curious about one another and you have to take initiative. You've got to, you can't be afraid to assert yourself in an open adoption relationship. ⁓ Don't be timid about it. You can't be. ⁓ you really do have to challenge yourself. And just because something might feel a little uncomfortable doesn't mean it's something that needs to be avoided altogether. ⁓ And, you know, I've never met a birth mom who has been so triggered because she received too many photos. And when I say too triggered, triggered as in like, she was too triggered that it affected her wellbeing long-term because she received too many photos. And we almost always want more than what we get because we're not parenting our own child. So the relationship will never be like what we like crave, you know? ⁓ And so send those photos, send those updates. And if you're not sure, just ask them. But yeah, when was the last time and I like you went to text me and you were like, ⁓ well I already texted her this month. So I'm gonna wait till next month to reach out.
Parenting Different: Right, it makes sense. Right. Right. Absolutely not. Right. ⁓
Jessie Mattos: that's, you know, build a relationship off of that. And so if you're only following that checklist, that's exactly what you've, ⁓ you know, reduce the relationship to as a checklist. And the child is going to see that and see, well, you know, my parents are just an obligation. And we feel that too, as birth parents, like we're so sensitive to like rejection or, you know, when we know that the family is being hesitant. And that's one of the best things in my own adoption.
Parenting Different: Yeah. child will notice.
Jessie Mattos: that my child's adoptive parents did was I never ever felt resistance from them. I never felt like they were hesitant or like scared or intimidated by me. Yes, it took time to like get used to one another and familiar with one another. But again, I never felt. Yeah, I never felt like I needed to perform for them to be their good graces. And that really helped my just my healing journey because I didn't have to worry about them. I just could.
Parenting Different: course, any new relationship will. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: do what I needed to do, even if it looked messy at times, until I got to a point where I had more consistency in my emotions and I was a little bit more stable in my life. But yeah, I never felt that from them and didn't have to worry about that because there was concern of like, I'm now working in this space. Maybe my education level is a little bit higher than theirs when it comes to adoption education. Are they going to be intimidated by that? That was also like a concern. But that's the reality. I had supportive caseworkers. I hate to say that I got lucky, but I got lucky with the agency staff. And they're a big reason why I'm even sitting here talking to you because I felt empowered to do more. But there was this fear of like, are they going to be intimidated by this? You know, because I think
Parenting Different: Yeah, I'm sure.
Jessie Mattos: that education gap adds to the power imbalance. I think sometimes people kind of want moms to stay where they are. They don't want them to learn more. They don't want them to have more mindfulness about the adoption journey and the adoptee experience and what this relationship looks like. And it keeps them small. You want moms to be empowered to learn more and to be engaged and know what's going on and paying attention to the research that's coming out and everything. ⁓
Parenting Different: Absolutely.
Jessie Mattos: So yeah, mean, the relationship could really inspire a mom in many different ways. I know that was, I mean, it's true for my story and I'm really grateful for that. And I know that unfortunately, it's not a lot of stories. So I wish it were.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Right, and I think one thing that you've said, you said this a while ago, I don't know if it was just in conversation or I heard you speaking somewhere, but you said, and I think this is so powerful, revisit the agreement, talk, communicate. Like, hey, is this still working for you? What do you need from us? What do we need from you? Because it could be as simple as now Johnny's on a travel baseball team.
Jessie Mattos: Hahaha Yeah.
Parenting Different: and you don't have the same amount of time anymore, but rather than ignoring mom, communicate that with her and say, hey, this is our situation right now. You know, I hope you understand what can we do to make that up to you? How do you feel in this? And really constantly, because kids grow and change and your life will change and birth mom will get married and have kids and maybe move and have a different career. So many life changes can happen. to everyone involved. so having that open and ongoing conversation about what is working is so important.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yeah, it is. you know, it's tricky because like in open adoptions, people go into this with a lot of high hopes and, you know, bright eyed, bush-tailed, ready to go. And they're ready to commit to all these visits. But, you know, if you're in a different state, logistics for visits, I mean, that alone can be a barrier. And you've got to really consider like, OK, committing to even one visit with anyone.
Parenting Different: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Mattos: every year is a lot, know, especially as lives get a little busy and things happen, but also financial situations can change too. Anyone's financial situation can change overnight. And you've got to be prepared for these life changes and not commit to something if you really don't think it's going to be feasible. If planning a trip every year out of state is going to be too much or overwhelming after year two,
Parenting Different: for
Jessie Mattos: That might not be the situation that you want to present on. You might want to find someone that's local, lives a little bit closer, that's going to be easier. But also when it comes to visits, if you are traveling out of mean, even if you're traveling in state, like don't just go for lunch and back, you know, like you're staying for a couple of days. This is not like a quick little, here again, throw you a bone. ⁓ We know we'll meet you for a couple hours at a.
Parenting Different: Right. Check the box, yeah.
Jessie Mattos: playground and then see you later. No, like be prepared to spend a couple days there and be intentional with the visits and it doesn't have to be complicated either. I think a lot of aspects of open adoption are over complicated. Granted it can be a complicated relationship, but don't overthink it. And so go to the visit, find some things to do around town. If mom grew up in that town, maybe just drive around town and go to her favorite spots or where she grew up, you know, playing.
Parenting Different: So good. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: soccer, I don't know, or her favorite coffee shop, little things like that because that's telling a story. The child's learning about their family and it's an easy thing to do. Yes, right. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, you really just have to evaluate is this feasible for us because yeah, trips are a lot. ⁓ you know, I've seen things change for families right after adoption.
Parenting Different: Right, be interested in her and her life. And that will build bridges too.
Jessie Mattos: You know, year one or two, all of sudden their life circumstance change or they move or something happens. And it's so hard because unless you have several years of consistent visits and the relationship is progressing, if there's some changes that happen early on, that's going to be really, really, really hard to come back from. ⁓ would, if... If something happens at like year eight, like I said, there's been consistency and you say, hey, this year's tough for us or something happens, you know, what else can we do like, you know, to accommodate or adjust that's different because you've had years of building that foundation and building that trust. But those changes like early on are going to be really hard to navigate it and come back from if there is conflict surrounding any. changes because yeah, life does happen. so be prepared those first couple of years you are building that trust. You are establishing that foundation. You are getting familiar with one another. The goal for those first couple of years is for the adoptive parents and the biological parents to really get to know each other well because the child can't engage in the relationship yet. They're just a little baby, little sack of potatoes that can't have an independent relationship. And so that is the focus is building that relationship.
Parenting Different: Yes. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: ⁓ and making sure that those first few years, you're not changing anything. You have to be consistent and then be proactive with any conversations. Don't wait for mom to reach out. know, if something happens like you need to initiate, you've got to be again, so like I've said this word a million times, but be proactive. Reach out first, let her know, be honest about, you know, what's going on ⁓ and then go from there. But
Parenting Different: Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, it takes a lot of effort. It's not going to be this magical thing that's going to be amazing right off the bat. Sometimes it is. Sometimes there's no, so there's no issues, but sometimes it just takes a while to get to know one another. You know, and when you have limitations set from the beginning of a relationship, it can be even harder to get to know one another as well. ⁓ Which say like, which is why I said, if an agency only offers like a third party app to communicate like that to me, come on, like just give each other your phone number.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: We're not going to come to your house and hunt you down. ⁓ We're really not a threat. I promise. Believe it or not. ⁓ But yeah, we're just not as scary as think media and society. Yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. you made this choice for a reason. And I think that that is, I think that's another thing I heard from you too, is like, you made this choice for a reason. You're not going to hunt anyone down and try and kidnap your child back. Like it's not crazy. And I think if adoptive parents look at it too, you both love the same child. And so rather than it being a competition, how much love, Can you pour into this child together? So that again, it goes back to that confidence. So someday when they can talk and when they can voice their opinions, they aren't ashamed in any way, or form to say, you know what? I want to go do visit, like say they're 15, 16. I want to go do that visit by myself this year. then adoptive parents already know
Jessie Mattos: Mm-hmm.
Parenting Different: because they've developed that relationship. She's stable. She has a great home. She has a family. No problem. Are they going to be nervous? Sure. Like we're not expecting you to not have some feelings about it, but you at least be confident in that so that, and so that child is not feeling like, I'm not telling you that I don't love you and I don't want you. I just want my own time with my birth parents. And I think those kinds of conversations, I don't think adoptive parents realize how hard those are adoptees to have and how hard it is for adoptees to voice those things. Well, we said they can tell us anything or they can ask us any questions. But does face say your words say that? Does your face say it? Do your actions say that? Because we don't want to destroy that relationship. We love the parents that have raised us. We also love our birth family and where we came from, too. And so it's very
Jessie Mattos: Right.
Parenting Different: It's tricky for the kids, but like you said, if you can establish that relationship when they're a sack of potatoes, then there will be more of a comfort level later and allow the adoptee that autonomy to be able to speak their mind.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Yeah, right. They're going to feel much more comfortable and they're going to feel more secure with their adoptive parents as well. And I think that's one thing as families think that they have to not minimize the biological parents, but the more interest that they show in the biological family and the more effort you put in, the more secure the child is going to feel with their families. so, you know, going back to like ethics and just education, like you want to, you want an agency that's talking about these things and you want an agency that's going to say things that you don't want to hear.
Parenting Different: Absolutely. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Like that again, this whole adoption in general is like get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And that includes hearing some hard things because your agency should not be solely should have a catering to the needs and the desires of the adoptive parents. And they're going to say things that might upset you, that might trigger something and Honestly, I wish more agencies were a little bit more honest with things and told families like this is not okay or this this thinking is wrong or you need more therapy. You need more education in this area. You want an agency to say that you want someone who is going to say, hey, I think you need to go back to therapy for your infertility grief. I think you guys need to maybe take a pause.
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: This is something that you're struggling with. can see that you're still a little uncomfortable with this conversation or this topic. I think you need to become more familiar with this. Here's our recommendations. Here's our resources, you whatever it might be. You want an agency that's going to challenge you because almost every single adoptive parent, you know, when they get back and they're now parenting and they're trying to figure this out, that's where the real work begins. And so many times we hear families are like, I was not prepared.
Parenting Different: Yeah. percent.
Jessie Mattos: for this all the time, happens all the time.
Parenting Different: Right. Which is exactly why parenting different exists because of that. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Right, right. So you want an extremely supportive agency there and one that is not just going to tell you what you want to hear and sugarcoat things ⁓ because this is real life that we're dealing with. And the reality is, is there are so many aspects of adoption that are evolving ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ the ⁓ research coming. ⁓ We're always learning. So you have to stay engaged and you have to stay up to date. And if your agency is not doing that, you know, that's, that's an issue because you want, you want an agency that is tuning in and paying attention and consistently trying to, to be better and to do better for families and children. Yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. Right, and don't take it personally. It's not, it's again, child focused, right? If we're keeping the child at the center, then don't be insulted by them saying you need to do more work, you need more education, more therapy, whatever. That's a gift. That's a gift to you. That's a gift to your child. That's a gift to your future family to be more prepared on the front end rather than in the middle of crisis or when you're struggling.
Jessie Mattos: bright. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, I, there's, look back and like even five years ago, I'm like, man, like there was so much I still, I just don't know then, you know? And so to think that you're going to, everything's going to be fine and you know everything. I mean, you're just, it's going to be so much harder for, for you, for families if they just aren't willing to lean in and, and pay attention and get involved to get plugged in. ⁓
Parenting Different: Yeah. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: Like I said, there's a lot of voices out there and there's a lot of noise, but, you know, after a while you start to kind of figure out the landscape and figure out what is quality and what is going to work for your own adoption and how you can best support the child through an open adoption. But yeah, it's it is tricky and it can be very, very overwhelming. And one of my favorite books, actually, it's somewhere
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Somewhere, one my favorite books that I recommend families ⁓ who are considering adoption is a workbook called Before You Adopt that has a ton of fantastic questions that really narrow down like what adoption option is going to be right for a family, ⁓ whether that's foster care, international, domestic. But some of the other questions are just really great about birth parents and like your perception of birth parents going into this. ⁓ You know, there's one thing that I see often is a lot of times adoptive parents are coming into this relationship with a lot more resources and privilege. And some of these these families have not had a lot of exposure to different lifestyles, different people, ⁓ different beliefs, all sorts of things. And if you are not very tolerant of. others and different people and different life experiences, that might be a bit of a struggle. The relationship might be a bit of a struggle for you. ⁓ And, you know, it's, it's always sad to see what a family is just like, you know, they've never maybe spoken to someone who struggles with mental health in a certain capacity or is struggling with ⁓
Parenting Different: Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: with addiction or things like that. Like if you don't have experience with lots of different life's choices and not even choices, but situations, try to familiarize yourself with people in general.
Parenting Different: Right. And so I think it's so important to learn and step out of your comfort zone because it's really not actually that uncomfortable once you do it.
Jessie Mattos: Right, yeah. Right? Unfamiliar does not mean unsafe. So get familiar with different people, different lifestyles. Even if someone is not in a situation where they're unstable, they could just have different belief systems from you. That doesn't mean that they're bad.
Parenting Different: rights. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: right, or unsafe. And so if you really have not experienced a lot of variety of people and situations in your life, maybe you consider not presenting on a case that is so vastly different from what you have been exposed to. ⁓ So you've really got to do a lot of self check, checking along the way and, you know, make sure, am I just eager?
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly.
Jessie Mattos: overeager or is this really something that is going to be, you know, right for this child? ⁓ Because yeah, if you're not able to enter this relationship and see them for their humanity, it's their child's going to feel that majorly and it's going to make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. So really assess is this the right situation for us to present on. ⁓ Is this something that we can learn more about or, you know, and again, you want an agency who is going to challenge you and see some of these things and guide you and support you and point you in the right direction. ⁓ But yeah, there's a lot of you need a lot of self-awareness and to kind of do this well and. really, really good communication skills as well, ⁓ which most people lack, unfortunately. But ⁓ yeah, you want an agency that's just going to be able to support all of these things. You know, I don't recommend people self-match to me. don't don't do it. Don't self-match. There's so many risks for that, which that's a whole other podcast. But yeah, ⁓ with an agency and even with a like
Parenting Different: Yeah. Yes.
Jessie Mattos: Sometimes just working with an attorney isn't enough. mean, most of time it's not enough. Work with an agency that has resources. So when people are looking for ethical entities, know, don't self-match, work with an agency, ⁓ people who have resources and support and services, you know, beyond just the legal paperwork. So, you know.
Parenting Different: Yeah. Well, I want to go back to one thing you said, the self matching, because I have heard that ⁓ as a reason, ⁓ like ethics as a reason to self match, then you're not money through an entity. Which logically, okay, great. Why would that not work? Why would that be a problem?
Jessie Mattos: Well, I mean, you still have to pay lawyers to be social money involved, right? And home state and all that kind of stuff. But yeah.
Parenting Different: Right. But I think they're thinking like they're handing over and allowing a third party to profit off of it, if that makes sense.
Jessie Mattos: Right. And I understand that argument too. And that's certainly something that I've heard, but there's just too much risk and self matching. you're, you want mom to have support. You want her to have her own legal representation. She's not going to get that if you're self matching, unless you're willing to find and pay for, you know, her own attorney kind of thing. But even then there's, that can be tricky because who knows what attorney you're going to have her work with. She needs her own advocate, a caseworker that's gonna be supporting her. She needs to have someone who's gonna be able to talk her through her options, assess her needs, go through everything with her to make sure that all other options have been exhausted before the adoption takes place. When it comes to self-matching, a lot of times moms don't have that support. There's also a lot of risk in scams. a good agency or professional is going to be able to spot someone who is maybe lying about their pregnancy. So you want confirmation of pregnancy as well. But yeah, it just opens the door to a lot of coercion. ⁓ You're not having anyone supporting you and managing the communication. birth parent expenses still come up as well in self matching. And then that just becomes also an exchange. So yeah, it's There's too much risk, there's not enough support. And I think in a lot of ways, self matching can be predatory, depending on how you are approaching self matching. There's those Facebook groups that people can self match on, which ⁓ not a thing. Like we're not even allowed to rehome a dog on Facebook. So why is this okay, right? Yeah, on Facebook. Yeah, it just gets real icky real fast. And you know, it's...
Parenting Different: Right. Why children? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: I see a lot of families go into self-matching who are fantastic families. And I see a lot of this knowing that many families are pursuing these different avenues without realizing what is happening.
Parenting Different: Right. They're doing it for the right reasons. yeah.
Jessie Mattos: most of the time, but yes, like it's, you understand that, yeah, it's, not, I don't want to come down on families or make them feel like you're doing everything wrong or how dare you not know this, but sometimes you don't know what you don't know, but there's just so much risk and there's not enough support when it comes to self matching. And it's just not worth it. It's not worth it to me. And a lot, for a lot of reasons, not just, you know, obviously for the birth parents, but for the adoptive parents and the child as well.
Parenting Different: Right. Exactly. Yeah, well, and I think even those Facebook pages, we've both seen them. I mean, some of the things that are said is just, and that's not just prospective adoptive parents, even from the birth mother side. I'm like, ⁓ what are you doing? First of all, why would you give that much information? why would, like, there's so many things that need to be protected on all sides. So, yeah. Yeah.
Jessie Mattos: Right. Right. Yes. lot of things.
Parenting Different: Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your wisdom, your insight into this super important topic. And ⁓ I just appreciate you being here.
Jessie Mattos: Yeah, thanks for having me. This is an important conversation to have. And like we said, there's so much more that we can't fit and it all intertwines all what we're talking about. So yeah, I appreciate you having me on
