Kirsten:
00:00:09
This week I talk with Kristen Nielsen Donnelly about the connection between nervousness and a speaker's responsibility to their audience. Hear how the idea of a sandbox helps Kristen be more flexible on stage. Let's jump into it. Hello everyone. Welcome to Ongoing Mastery: Presenting Speaking, the podcast and the interview. And we have Kristen Donnelly, the amazing, the talented, the brilliant the, hi Kristen, how are you Hi
Kristen:
00:00:43
Kirsten.
Kirsten:
00:00:43
How are you? So, tell everybody what it is that you are and what you do, and then I'll tell them why you're awesome.
Kristen:
00:00:49
Oh gosh. I help people treat each other better, and I do that through speaking and teaching and writing primarily in the spaces of understanding why people are the way they are, and therefore, how if you understand each other better, how you can get along better and have a more harmonious and cohesive human experience. So
Kirsten:
00:01:13
why would anybody want a cohesive human experience? Don't we all love absolute chaos and pain? I mean, oh my
Kristen:
00:01:20
gosh. Yeah. I was the first TEDx I got a chance to do. I was talking about how inclusivity is so important because I mean, it is, and then I just kind of like gestured to the world. I was like, well, because division is working so great for all of us. Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's like we've tried it this other way of living life as though we are the only thing that matters. So let's try it another way.
Kirsten:
00:01:42
Yeah, the awesome. So here's the reason why I definitely wanted to have you on. You and I are both part of a group called Innovation Women. Mm-Hmm. which meets on Fridays and does a combination of speaker coaching, a little therapy, a lot of ranting, a whole lot of just knowledge crossing. And I, I'm not the most patient, tolerant person on the planet. I can see patience. I can see it through a telescope most of the time, but I love how you will answer. Like I will be so annoyed by something that just going on and on and on and on and on, and you will be like, Hey, let's get to the point. And it's just wonderful and totally clear and gracious and amazing. And please don't get me wrong, if you're listening, I love Innovation Women Fridays. I do. I just am not really wired for being in a room of 50 people all doing advice questions at the same time when I haven't had my morning coffee yet. That's all. Yeah. But it is the best thing, and I'm so glad I joined and I'm so glad I met you and all these other awesome people. So when we're talking about speaking, obviously people have a whole bunch of stuff that comes up and there's always that talk in the beginning about speaker fear and news speakers. Let's talk about experienced speakers. What is your thoughts about the fact that there's a belief out there that once you get to a certain point as a speaker, you stop having nerves? Um,
Kristen:
00:03:05
is my thought to that. So look that thank me for me. If you are not nervous, you don't recognize your responsibility in the moment. So the way I always tell it to younger speakers in the journey, not necessarily in the age fresher speakers, is that the nerves, what they tell me is that I understand the weight of what I'm about to do. That I'm taking it seriously, that this is not, it could be the silliest thing on the planet, but these people are still giving me their time. They might not be consenting to giving me their time, but the minute I step on that stage, they give me any attention. They're giving me their time, and that is the most precious thing anyone can give us. It's the most precious, it's the non-renewable resource. Right? Like that's the adage and kind of over said, but like sit there and think about that for a minute. Your ideas. The way that you present them and the craft that you have put into doing that is what they're gonna pay attention to for the next 10 to 30 minutes, to 60, to 90, to however long you do it. Yep. It is your responsibility to honor that gift, and the nerves are a, to me, a reflection of understanding that. Nice. Okay. So in a certain way, when you lose the nerves, I ask if you are still connected to the call to be a speaker.
Kirsten:
00:04:26
Yeah. Okay. Alright. I get that. And this is interesting because most, every Friday I go to the speaker, friend Friday morning shindig, and I've been having a lot of conversation with newer speakers. Right. And hearing this and kind of going, no, no. It's like, no, it's not that it gets, it gets easier, it just doesn't get, not stressful or not, there's still no things
Kristen:
00:04:49
involved. Think yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The process gets cleaner. It gets more rehearsed. Mm-Hmm. like I don't get as nervous over like the details anymore. Yeah. Like. I don't get nervous over my outfit anymore. I don't get nervous over like all the hypotheticals anymore like I did at the beginning. Like, well, what if the sound goes wrong? And what if this happens? That goes away. That goes away. Yeah, but like the 30 seconds before you step out there, that never goes away, and I hope it never does.
Kirsten:
00:05:16
Yeah, it's interesting 'cause when I did my TEDx, I mean, you know me, I'm always very, I'm very upfront about what I'm thinking and feeling even to the point of like, people going, please stop. And so I was doing the whole, you know, I'm really nervous. I'm really nervous, I'm really nervous. And they were like, oh, okay. It'll be fine. Yes, angel. Thank you. Everyone loves a dog. Like you, I'm a red light on performer. Like as soon as I'm on the dot, as soon as the camera's on, I'm good to go. And I knew that, but I was also just like, oh wow, you know, this is really something. And then I stepped onto it and the camera went on and I went right into it. And so when it ended the cameraman, they all cheered, which was awesome. And the cameraman went, you lied to me. And I'm like, I did not lie to you. I told you I was nervous. I didn't tell you I was new. Okay. Yeah, I told you I've been doing this 20 plus years, so it was just interesting. The connections I've made through innovation women has been really helpful because I'm meeting all these other people who have the same journey, and even though you and I have similar backgrounds in some ways and not in others, we both have that same Oh, yeah. Been there. Because after a while, it doesn't matter what your topic is. No. And it doesn't matter what your audience is. All speakers have a certain commonality of understanding Oh yeah. Of the, oh God, I wanted to die when. Oh
Kristen:
00:06:34
yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I was a youth worker and it, like, I was a youth worker for a decade almost. Mm-Hmm. So almost all of mine come with embarrassing yourself in front of a teenager, which are legion. But yeah, I think some of them don't come on stage. Some of them come from that missed opportunity that you didn't quite chase or the thing you chase too hard. that ended up being wrong for you. The basket you put all those eggs in that ended up having holes. And I will be honest, more of my mortification like, oh, stories come from the business side of speaking than they come from the performance side of speaking and which is why it fascinates me every single Friday someone will ask how much to charge and I just wanna like throw my arms up in the air and be like, no one knows the answer to this question. Yeah, no one knows. No one knows it for themselves. No one knows it for anybody else. There is no such thing as a market value for this. It just is what it is, which is one of the reasons, personally listeners, I have stopped going to NSA events 'cause the National Speakers Association is all about theater and profit, and to an extent where. For me, that is stressful. Mm-Hmm. And for me, that doesn't work. That isn't encouraging. That's discouraging. Ah. And so conversations about profit are different than to me. Mm-Hmm. are different than conversations about revenue. And about earning a living. Oh. And so I am not, and some of this, I'm a small business owner. I inherit, like my brother and I took over our father's business. I've been in a family small business since I was literally seven. mm-Hmm, So I have a different kind of perspective on this because of the way my family and I have talked about profit loss, revenue, and income forever. So for me, the question is not, does speaking make me a profit. As much as does speaking make me a appropriate income. Oh, okay. And that's a different shift for me. Yeah. 'cause a profit is unlimited profit has no up profit has no barrier. Profit is limited by capitalism. Appropriate revenue to live on is limited by your own ethic. Oh,
Kirsten:
00:08:35
all right. That's the best quote. I gotta put that on a T-shirt.
Kristen:
00:08:39
Thank you. Like, so that's the thing I wanna ask these people. I'm like, when they're like, what do you charge? I'm like, I have a million questions for you. Do you wanna be famous? Do you wanna give TEDxes? Are you looking to drive a Rolls Royce? What is the enough for you here? I don't care about judgmentally, but I price. I price in a way that I hope communicates. I am more about service than I am about profit margin. because if I'm really honest, Kirsten, if we're really like, let's go bog standard, honest, no one can afford me When it comes to my experience, my wisdom, and what I can offer, no one can afford me. Yep. So when I hear, charge what you're worth, it does my nut. Like I can't even handle that statement. Yes. Like you are worth so much more than any monetary value anybody will put on you. I have three postgraduate degrees. Almost 25 years of speaking experience in over six countries. Mm-Hmm. I charge what I think is appropriate to someone else's budget line so that I can serve as many people as possible. Yep. If I charged my worth, I would never book a gig. Yeah. I, not
Kirsten:
00:09:44
a single one. I was talking with a friend of mine. I have a weekly accountability call with another speaker and you know, he's used to like, you know, every time we get together I have a little mini rant of the day and then we talk about our stuff. And I kind of went on a rant about the Tony Robbins model of speaker, and I said, the issue I have is when you're on stage and you smile and there's ching off your teeth, you are not a person and you're not connecting with people. That's not what that is. And I have a real problem with that. And he was like. Huh. Really. You know, it's just it. It didn't read for him as a thing, but it absolutely just eats me up because I'm looking at that. And for me, speaking is about connecting with people's humanity. And especially they're giving you not only their time, which is the non-renewable resource, they're giving you their energy and their thoughts and their passion. Mm-Hmm. And that's a huge responsibility.
Kristen:
00:10:40
To have. It's massive. It's massive. I mean, I talk about speaking as a calling because to me it really is, and we use the word calling in the United States, especially to justify paying people less for things. A lot like teaching as a calling and it's okay that medical students don't make any money because medicine is a calling and like all that kind of stuff. So I don't mean it that way. I would still like to get paid. Thank you. I need, I do need to, I have become accustomed to eating as I normally say. Yes. I
Kirsten:
00:11:04
would like to pay my rent. I really,
Kristen:
00:11:06
I really appreciate paying my mortgage. Yeah. And, and everyone has a different alchemy for how they do their pricing. Everybody does. But again, what's the goal? So for me, the call is just as equally as important as the revenue, and that's my family's mission statement as a family and as a company, is to impact lives and create a holistic wealth. So we do that through manufacturing. We do that through really holistic HR and then I, and run my own division that my best friend, honestly, that two of my best friends on the planet work in with me. Where we take the messaging that my family has had forever, the evidence that we have, that if 33 years, we've never performed a layoff in 33 years, we've never had a product recall. Like all of this kind of stuff to prove to companies that you can operate like we do. Mm. Like if you tell me it's not possible, fantastic. Here's my boatload of evidence that it is. Yeah. Because not only do I have all the evidence from research and the, and data and everything else, I've got 33 years of lived experience. Let me tell you that. It does work. You just have to want something different. So in the same way I have to want, as a speaker, I have to want To impact lives. Yeah. As much as I want to make a living and those two things, yeah. Have to marry and like the Tony Robbins, the white teeth, the performance for me there's like either the make a living is such a higher definition. Yeah. Or like there's something a little bit wonky 'cause calling. To me invokes more service. Yeah. Invokes less performance and more impact. And so that's why I use the word Yeah. Because the performance stuff drives me nuts too. I like, I mean I got my teeth whitened before I did my TEDx. 'cause that thing's going on, all four of them actually. 'cause it's going on YouTube, it's living forever. And like I look sometimes like I'm swallowing corn So like, okay, I drink way too much coffee for me to have a white smile. I'm drinking, I'm drinking coffee right
Kirsten:
00:13:01
now. So.
Kristen:
00:13:02
Way too much coffee. So like, don't let me say you don't look professional. Like I know I, I'm in a hoodie right now, but trust me, in my TEDxes there was Spanx and heels involved. I'm kidding. I showed up and turned out and when I speak, yeah, now I show up and I'm turned out. But there's a difference in, if you don't know what Kirsten is talking about, there's a difference in the used car salesman. Yeah. Vibes no matter what you look like. But yeah, I also have a problem with that method of speaking, which is a whole lot about yelling and berating people. But that's a completely separate
Kirsten:
00:13:33
Yeah. It's funny because when I, you know, I was having my conversation about Tony Robbins, I was asked, well, you know, do you watch a lot of his stuff? And I said, to be honest, I don't. I find it, you know, it doesn't really read for me. Mm-Hmm. And what he said was, well, he really is able to change lives. I'm like, okay, that's great. But the amount of service that you would have to be doing to equal that. Like would have to be, I mean, making the blind see kind of level of just doesn't read for me. And
Kristen:
00:14:00
I hear that a lot. And my thing is like, I've been a social scientist for a hot minute. I don't find that people change their being shamed. Mm-Hmm. Uh, they change their behavior maybe, but they don't fundamentally change how they see the world or how they move through the world. Except with stories and relationships and so much of his model, which I have watched his stuff, and it's Benny in with a different God to me. Mm-Hmm. Joel Osteen with a different God to me. Yeah, exactly. There are a lot of temporary opinions and behaviors. Yeah. More than it is like redirecting lives and it's showmanship. I also, I'm such a cynic, like I get that, but I don't buy that those folks aren't planted Okay, sure enough. 'cause so much of your, so much of your income is derived on making sure that people are changed. Yeah, that the like, well, we know Benny Hins were planted. So what makes you different? Like that's, I'm enough of a cynic that that bothers
Kirsten:
00:14:55
me. Yeah, it so, so it's funny because like I'm a very theatrical person and I'm very theatrical in my stuff. And one of my dear speaker friends is Dean, who is, he is the dean, and I will put his link in the show notes. He's amazing. And he's, he's a magician who's also a speaker, and he's v Villian. Okay. This is a man who thinks in title case, like that's how he moves through the world. And you know what's just really funny is, is that. He's got that same sort of pavilion energy and I am gonna, it's gonna kill me that I brought up his first name and not his last. So I'm gonna double check just to make sure Hanky. There we go. 'cause I knew I was gonna say, say it wrong and I did not wanna get it wrong. So Dean hanky, like his pavilion. Haya is so 100% who he is as a person. That's who he is. In the dark moments, that's who he is. When I call him up and it's just him and me, he's that. So the problem I have with the really stage lights version is I respect the showmanship, but like I have to know what's
Kristen:
00:15:59
underneath it. Yeah. That's a better way to say what I was stumbling through, you know?
undefined:
00:16:02
True.
Kirsten:
00:16:03
Have you ever seen o, and I'm gonna blank on his name, Australian played Wolverine. Hugh Jackman, Hugh Jackman. Have you ever seen the Hugh Jackman retrospective, uh, my Life or Hugh the show, or
Kristen:
00:16:15
whatever it's called? No, I just saw him in Music Man though, like last year. Oh. And
Kirsten:
00:16:19
that was incredible. That is one of the best designed shows I have ever. No, it's hands down. It's the best designed stage performance I've ever seen anywhere. And he's fully, authentically himself in every single moment. And. The floor design, the air design, the light design, like all of it is so good that I was watching and I was blown away by the show, but I was also blown away by how careful they were with the journey they were taking the audience on. Because you go through a long emotional journey in that show, and they take you to places where you're crying. And then you are cheering and they're very careful about that journey. And I was watching the rollercoaster that was happening in me because after one singer was on, I was sobbing. She was so beautiful and it was so heart wrenching and it was just amazing. And then he came out and it was the exact right amount of lighten it up and you could tell it was calibrated like with a fine instrument. That's the level of showmanship that I want to achieve because it comes from a passionate belief in the audience's journey. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's the part that I feel like gets lost in some of the, come look at me, I am a God. It's like, yeah, we
Kristen:
00:17:30
know. Yeah. It's all one volume. Yeah. Like it's, it's a lot of, all one volume. Yeah. I am often all one volume or one note. I know that like I'm not for everybody. And my talks aren't for everybody. It's one of the reasons I love doing workshops with my best friend because we are such different energy. She's a really, we're both very funny and we have really good banter against each other 'cause we've been best friends for 12 years, but she has a much quieter energy. She's an introvert, she's much more calm, like stating the facts kind of thing. And I'm all over the place like a chaos monster. And so I really love doing things with her more than I like doing things apart. It's not always feasible in terms of our lives for that to happen. But the question I ask myself a lot is as I craft my tones of voice and as I, I mean obviously as I craft my PowerPoints, is what is the pedagogy of this? Mm-Hmm, How are we pedagogically leading people through this? Where should the activities be? Where should the moments of silence be? Where should all of that do? And how do I do that as one human in 60 minutes? How do we do that as one human or two humans online? Like that's always the question I'm asking is pedagogically, does this make sense? Does my argument land? Have I built it? Well, I. To where it's not overwhelming. 'cause a lot of what we do, I'll be really honest, is pretty brand new information for people. Yeah. It's a different, it's a real different way to look at it. Yeah. I mean like I teach you come to one of my burnout seminars and I open with the 16th, with the 17th century Puritans. Like you're not
Kirsten:
00:18:53
expecting that. Yeah, exactly. That might be a little there. People are like, wait a minute. What?
Kristen:
00:18:57
Excuse me. Yeah. And I'm like, no, go with me. Here we go. Yeah. So I have a responsibility intellectually for them to lead them responsibly through the argument. Yeah. And that's my, and when we wrote, we just published our burnout book, actually our book on the culture burnout. And that was the argument, that was the question I kept asking to every single editor. Mm-Hmm. was, does the argument hang? Is it cogent? Does it go? So I don't often remember showmanship, or even better, I forget it, in service to the pedagogy. And I forget. What the emotional thing can be. I'm so like, well, how can the mental argument happen? Okay. It's like I've been doing my talks on burnout for eight, eight years. Eight years, okay. And it never, it like. I used to do quiet reflection at the end of it. Mm-Hmm. it never occurred to me in the middle that people would need me to pause and for them to process this brand new information I gave them before I gave them even more brand new information. Ah, and
Kirsten:
00:19:56
when did you get that message? Oh, like this year. Oh, okay. After eight
Kristen:
00:19:59
years. Like this year? Yeah. Okay. Pathetically It took me this long to figure it out where it couldn't happen all at the end. Okay. It had to happen throughout it. I,
Kirsten:
00:20:08
I'm gonna need you to rephrase that because. It's not pathetic. This is
Kristen:
00:20:12
the journey we do. It's true, but it feels very like, oh my God, how did I not realize this? Mm-Hmm. And some of that is because that the strict pedagogy needs to marry the showmanship. Yes.
Kirsten:
00:20:24
Okay. There
Kristen:
00:20:25
we are. Thank you. That's And that's what I can't do all the time. Very well. That's a still point of growth for me.
Kirsten:
00:20:31
Okay. I love it. I love it. And I would say that for me it's probably the reverse. Okay. 'cause I know that like I can nail the pedagogy as long as I'm not emotionally swept away by where I'm bringing people. So, interesting. I have to be careful not to go into the emotional journey at the expense of the content.
Kristen:
00:20:52
Ooh, interesting. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. You know? Okay. Yeah.
Kirsten:
00:20:55
I very much, I will throw out entire sections in service to
Kristen:
00:20:59
the moment. Oh. And I don't know what the moment is until it's passed. Oh,
Kirsten:
00:21:04
interesting. Interesting. Though. I'm always like, right. I'm riding literally right on the cusp of it.
Kristen:
00:21:10
This would be fun for us to do something together. This would be hilarious. That would be good. I'd love it. It would be, I think it would be, I am so practical.
Kirsten:
00:21:19
Yeah, and I'm a completely, I'm now a completely instinct. Well, not completely, 'cause I'm working on it. I'm a very instinctual speaker. So, yeah. I mean, I do a lot of lives where I don't have anything planned because I honestly want people to see me mess up because I want them to see a speaker that keeps going even when it's not working. Song, you know? And it's like, I really need my audience to know that because that's part of my mission is like, no, come on it. Honestly, nobody's on fire and nobody's bleeding. It's okay. Yeah. But yeah. Lemme, and I should, we should do something together. Oh
undefined:
00:21:53
my
Kristen:
00:21:54
really fun. That'd great. Yeah, that would be really fun. Oh my gosh. Yeah. My thing is I still improv like sections of stuff. Yeah. But what I have learned as I stepped into more professionalism, and I need to credit my speaker coach doing this, her name is Tricia Brook and she's often, she's somebody who people sometimes know I had the privilege of working with her, and one of the things that she taught me is you can improv as long as you want inside the sandbox. The problem is when the sandbox becomes a sand pile and there's no box, nice. And that's not her language, that's mine. Like, that's what she taught me to. She might not even love that I said that, but that's what all of her teaching taught was. I used to just speak and like wander around the sand pile and like it would be fine. And she taught me to have the box. Yeah. And then if in the middle of the talk, all four of my TED talks, by the way, all four of them I messed, I messed up from the script. I rewrote sections as I talked all of my talks since then, with the exception of one 'cause I read it. All of my memorized talks. Since then, I have rewritten passages in the middle of it. Mm-Hmm. And so what I think if I could pass on one thing to some people also about the nerves, I realize, like back to that question is if I have that sandbox, if I have the box built mm-Hmm I know that sand man. I can play anywhere in it and it'll be fine. So I don't worry about the content, I don't worry about saying something wrong because I can't, I know the box. I know the box and that was a huge thing that that helps with for me is the post-event. Let down, oh yeah, the crash. What did I, did I say the right thing? Did I screw up? What did I do wrong? If I stayed in the box, I, the box is fine. I make sure my scripts for things go through other people. Yep. Like. If we establish the box, I don't have anything to worry about. The adrenaline crash is a thing and I sleep and Mm-Hmm, I have snacks and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But except the one time where I didn't have it, 'cause I had to get directly on a plane. I did two TEDx talks in five days. And so that was, that was a lot. That was a pretty big crash. The next day I'm give you the face going, okay, that was a choice. It's a big crash. It's a pretty big crash. Yeah. Um, but I don't overanalyze to the extent that I used to when I would just get up there and do an improv show. Mm-Hmm. So I will pass that on to new speakers, is that the nerves should stay the post analysis. Mm-Hmm. doesn't have to be as painful as it might be for you right now. Yeah. There are ways to make it not as shaming. Yeah, the, the
Kirsten:
00:24:17
crash is gonna happen in whatever form it happens for people. It, it always happens for, for folks, no matter what their, their own version of it. But I love the idea of defining the box. The boundaries of this is what should be the expectations, these are the rules of engagement. And from that we party. Yeah,
Kristen:
00:24:33
I love that. Whatever. And then within that, I'm instinctual. I'll crack jokes if I feel it needs to be cracked. I'll hold the silence if I think it needs to. I'll read their faces. Yep. But I, I can do the instinct on that. Okay. But I used to get up there and just do everything instinctually and that was not good for me and how I explained things because I couldn't make the argument I was trying to make. Yeah.
Kirsten:
00:24:54
Yeah. It's, you gotta keep the, through the through line going Wow that you have gotten the meat right there. And I'm gonna end on that because That's perfect. I had to look it up just because it was bugging me. So I think the name of the show I'm talking about is actually the Hugh Jackman tour. Okay. If you ever get a chance to see it, he goes through his entire life and he acts out different characters. Oh my gosh. And he brings in videos of his family. I mean, it is brilliant. Ooh, okay. Stunningly good theater design, like the best I've ever seen. I was just in awe. Okay. Um, so if you ever get a chance, it's 100% worth. It. Sounds good. You know, so where can people find you in all the, you know, all the socials, all the places. So my
Kristen:
00:25:40
company is called Abbey Research. It's A-B-B-E-Y, the word research. And you can find our website@argooddoctors.com. Everything you need, including all of my keynotes, all my TEDxes, all of it is all there on that website ar good doctors.com.
Kirsten:
00:26:00
Fantastic. And you mentioned a book. Mm-Hmm. do you wanna just talk about for a quick minute? Oh gosh. I would be only
Kristen:
00:26:06
delighted Um, I mean, as long as you're here. Yeah. While I'm here. So Aaron and I wrote a book called The Culture of Burnout: Why Your Exhaustion Is Not Your Fault. Our contention is that America in particular is a culture of burnout, which means that we are a culture that celebrates burnout, is not actually interested in preventing it or solving it. Mm-Hmm. and is interested in making it your individual problem so that it's your individual failure when you are burned out. Instead, we trace how America has decided that your work ethic is tied to your personal morality. Why we are the way we are, how we got there, how we started, and then what the heck we do about it. Oh, holy crap. So
Kirsten:
00:26:44
if you'd I, I, I have to buy that book as soon as we're off this call because oh my God, that is so me. It's available. God, in both, my God. Kellie's gonna her ass off when she watches this recording because that's exactly. 100%. Okay.
Kristen:
00:27:00
It's me too. It's me too. I had a, uh, large mental health rewriting slash breakdown, depending on how honest I'm being on the given day while we were writing this, and a big part of how we kind of came to this was I did a talk at a festival last year called Belief and Belonging about the Puritans. How the Puritan's legacy to us is that you're only a good person if you work hard. Oh, and that's their theological legacy to us that none of us have ever rewritten. We've just codified it into ca, into American Civic religion of capitalism. And remind me the name of your book. The Culture of Burnout: Why You're Exhaustion Is Not Your Fault. It's available on Amazon in Kindle and paperback. There it is. Scott, see it. It's a very pretty color cover. I'm very proud of it. It's very,
Kirsten:
00:27:42
very, yes. All right. My Kristen Donnelley. And Erin. Erin Hinson. Yep. Fantastic. All right, so everybody's homework. Buy the damn book because I'm laughing. I'm just Yeah, that's exactly what, yeah, I struggle. Yeah.
Kristen:
00:27:56
Yeah. I it's, it's one of those, it fell out of our fingers as soon as we started writing it. 'cause we were like, oh, we have a lot of feelings about this
Kirsten:
00:28:04
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Okay. Well. And now I'm gonna wrap it up and I'm gonna say to everybody, check her out on the socials, give comments, give feedback. Please like, please subscribe. Please do all the things for all the socials, and we will see you next time. Remember, please, she is a coach. I am a coach. If you want services, you can hire us. We work for money. That's how the world is. Yay. Alright, thank you everybody. See you next time. If you enjoyed this conversation about the entrepreneurial journey, check out season one, episode number five, our conversation about managing your energy while speaking on stage. The link is in the show notes.
00:00:09
This week I talk with Kristen Nielsen Donnelly about the connection between nervousness and a speaker's responsibility to their audience. Hear how the idea of a sandbox helps Kristen be more flexible on stage. Let's jump into it. Hello everyone. Welcome to Ongoing Mastery: Presenting Speaking, the podcast and the interview. And we have Kristen Donnelly, the amazing, the talented, the brilliant the, hi Kristen, how are you Hi
Kristen:
00:00:43
Kirsten.
Kirsten:
00:00:43
How are you? So, tell everybody what it is that you are and what you do, and then I'll tell them why you're awesome.
Kristen:
00:00:49
Oh gosh. I help people treat each other better, and I do that through speaking and teaching and writing primarily in the spaces of understanding why people are the way they are, and therefore, how if you understand each other better, how you can get along better and have a more harmonious and cohesive human experience. So
Kirsten:
00:01:13
why would anybody want a cohesive human experience? Don't we all love absolute chaos and pain? I mean, oh my
Kristen:
00:01:20
gosh. Yeah. I was the first TEDx I got a chance to do. I was talking about how inclusivity is so important because I mean, it is, and then I just kind of like gestured to the world. I was like, well, because division is working so great for all of us. Yeah, exactly. It's like, it's like we've tried it this other way of living life as though we are the only thing that matters. So let's try it another way.
Kirsten:
00:01:42
Yeah, the awesome. So here's the reason why I definitely wanted to have you on. You and I are both part of a group called Innovation Women. Mm-Hmm. which meets on Fridays and does a combination of speaker coaching, a little therapy, a lot of ranting, a whole lot of just knowledge crossing. And I, I'm not the most patient, tolerant person on the planet. I can see patience. I can see it through a telescope most of the time, but I love how you will answer. Like I will be so annoyed by something that just going on and on and on and on and on, and you will be like, Hey, let's get to the point. And it's just wonderful and totally clear and gracious and amazing. And please don't get me wrong, if you're listening, I love Innovation Women Fridays. I do. I just am not really wired for being in a room of 50 people all doing advice questions at the same time when I haven't had my morning coffee yet. That's all. Yeah. But it is the best thing, and I'm so glad I joined and I'm so glad I met you and all these other awesome people. So when we're talking about speaking, obviously people have a whole bunch of stuff that comes up and there's always that talk in the beginning about speaker fear and news speakers. Let's talk about experienced speakers. What is your thoughts about the fact that there's a belief out there that once you get to a certain point as a speaker, you stop having nerves? Um,
Kristen:
00:03:05
is my thought to that. So look that thank me for me. If you are not nervous, you don't recognize your responsibility in the moment. So the way I always tell it to younger speakers in the journey, not necessarily in the age fresher speakers, is that the nerves, what they tell me is that I understand the weight of what I'm about to do. That I'm taking it seriously, that this is not, it could be the silliest thing on the planet, but these people are still giving me their time. They might not be consenting to giving me their time, but the minute I step on that stage, they give me any attention. They're giving me their time, and that is the most precious thing anyone can give us. It's the most precious, it's the non-renewable resource. Right? Like that's the adage and kind of over said, but like sit there and think about that for a minute. Your ideas. The way that you present them and the craft that you have put into doing that is what they're gonna pay attention to for the next 10 to 30 minutes, to 60, to 90, to however long you do it. Yep. It is your responsibility to honor that gift, and the nerves are a, to me, a reflection of understanding that. Nice. Okay. So in a certain way, when you lose the nerves, I ask if you are still connected to the call to be a speaker.
Kirsten:
00:04:26
Yeah. Okay. Alright. I get that. And this is interesting because most, every Friday I go to the speaker, friend Friday morning shindig, and I've been having a lot of conversation with newer speakers. Right. And hearing this and kind of going, no, no. It's like, no, it's not that it gets, it gets easier, it just doesn't get, not stressful or not, there's still no things
Kristen:
00:04:49
involved. Think yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The process gets cleaner. It gets more rehearsed. Mm-Hmm. like I don't get as nervous over like the details anymore. Yeah. Like. I don't get nervous over my outfit anymore. I don't get nervous over like all the hypotheticals anymore like I did at the beginning. Like, well, what if the sound goes wrong? And what if this happens? That goes away. That goes away. Yeah, but like the 30 seconds before you step out there, that never goes away, and I hope it never does.
Kirsten:
00:05:16
Yeah, it's interesting 'cause when I did my TEDx, I mean, you know me, I'm always very, I'm very upfront about what I'm thinking and feeling even to the point of like, people going, please stop. And so I was doing the whole, you know, I'm really nervous. I'm really nervous, I'm really nervous. And they were like, oh, okay. It'll be fine. Yes, angel. Thank you. Everyone loves a dog. Like you, I'm a red light on performer. Like as soon as I'm on the dot, as soon as the camera's on, I'm good to go. And I knew that, but I was also just like, oh wow, you know, this is really something. And then I stepped onto it and the camera went on and I went right into it. And so when it ended the cameraman, they all cheered, which was awesome. And the cameraman went, you lied to me. And I'm like, I did not lie to you. I told you I was nervous. I didn't tell you I was new. Okay. Yeah, I told you I've been doing this 20 plus years, so it was just interesting. The connections I've made through innovation women has been really helpful because I'm meeting all these other people who have the same journey, and even though you and I have similar backgrounds in some ways and not in others, we both have that same Oh, yeah. Been there. Because after a while, it doesn't matter what your topic is. No. And it doesn't matter what your audience is. All speakers have a certain commonality of understanding Oh yeah. Of the, oh God, I wanted to die when. Oh
Kristen:
00:06:34
yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I was a youth worker and it, like, I was a youth worker for a decade almost. Mm-Hmm. So almost all of mine come with embarrassing yourself in front of a teenager, which are legion. But yeah, I think some of them don't come on stage. Some of them come from that missed opportunity that you didn't quite chase or the thing you chase too hard. that ended up being wrong for you. The basket you put all those eggs in that ended up having holes. And I will be honest, more of my mortification like, oh, stories come from the business side of speaking than they come from the performance side of speaking and which is why it fascinates me every single Friday someone will ask how much to charge and I just wanna like throw my arms up in the air and be like, no one knows the answer to this question. Yeah, no one knows. No one knows it for themselves. No one knows it for anybody else. There is no such thing as a market value for this. It just is what it is, which is one of the reasons, personally listeners, I have stopped going to NSA events 'cause the National Speakers Association is all about theater and profit, and to an extent where. For me, that is stressful. Mm-Hmm. And for me, that doesn't work. That isn't encouraging. That's discouraging. Ah. And so conversations about profit are different than to me. Mm-Hmm. are different than conversations about revenue. And about earning a living. Oh. And so I am not, and some of this, I'm a small business owner. I inherit, like my brother and I took over our father's business. I've been in a family small business since I was literally seven. mm-Hmm, So I have a different kind of perspective on this because of the way my family and I have talked about profit loss, revenue, and income forever. So for me, the question is not, does speaking make me a profit. As much as does speaking make me a appropriate income. Oh, okay. And that's a different shift for me. Yeah. 'cause a profit is unlimited profit has no up profit has no barrier. Profit is limited by capitalism. Appropriate revenue to live on is limited by your own ethic. Oh,
Kirsten:
00:08:35
all right. That's the best quote. I gotta put that on a T-shirt.
Kristen:
00:08:39
Thank you. Like, so that's the thing I wanna ask these people. I'm like, when they're like, what do you charge? I'm like, I have a million questions for you. Do you wanna be famous? Do you wanna give TEDxes? Are you looking to drive a Rolls Royce? What is the enough for you here? I don't care about judgmentally, but I price. I price in a way that I hope communicates. I am more about service than I am about profit margin. because if I'm really honest, Kirsten, if we're really like, let's go bog standard, honest, no one can afford me When it comes to my experience, my wisdom, and what I can offer, no one can afford me. Yep. So when I hear, charge what you're worth, it does my nut. Like I can't even handle that statement. Yes. Like you are worth so much more than any monetary value anybody will put on you. I have three postgraduate degrees. Almost 25 years of speaking experience in over six countries. Mm-Hmm. I charge what I think is appropriate to someone else's budget line so that I can serve as many people as possible. Yep. If I charged my worth, I would never book a gig. Yeah. I, not
Kirsten:
00:09:44
a single one. I was talking with a friend of mine. I have a weekly accountability call with another speaker and you know, he's used to like, you know, every time we get together I have a little mini rant of the day and then we talk about our stuff. And I kind of went on a rant about the Tony Robbins model of speaker, and I said, the issue I have is when you're on stage and you smile and there's ching off your teeth, you are not a person and you're not connecting with people. That's not what that is. And I have a real problem with that. And he was like. Huh. Really. You know, it's just it. It didn't read for him as a thing, but it absolutely just eats me up because I'm looking at that. And for me, speaking is about connecting with people's humanity. And especially they're giving you not only their time, which is the non-renewable resource, they're giving you their energy and their thoughts and their passion. Mm-Hmm. And that's a huge responsibility.
Kristen:
00:10:40
To have. It's massive. It's massive. I mean, I talk about speaking as a calling because to me it really is, and we use the word calling in the United States, especially to justify paying people less for things. A lot like teaching as a calling and it's okay that medical students don't make any money because medicine is a calling and like all that kind of stuff. So I don't mean it that way. I would still like to get paid. Thank you. I need, I do need to, I have become accustomed to eating as I normally say. Yes. I
Kirsten:
00:11:04
would like to pay my rent. I really,
Kristen:
00:11:06
I really appreciate paying my mortgage. Yeah. And, and everyone has a different alchemy for how they do their pricing. Everybody does. But again, what's the goal? So for me, the call is just as equally as important as the revenue, and that's my family's mission statement as a family and as a company, is to impact lives and create a holistic wealth. So we do that through manufacturing. We do that through really holistic HR and then I, and run my own division that my best friend, honestly, that two of my best friends on the planet work in with me. Where we take the messaging that my family has had forever, the evidence that we have, that if 33 years, we've never performed a layoff in 33 years, we've never had a product recall. Like all of this kind of stuff to prove to companies that you can operate like we do. Mm. Like if you tell me it's not possible, fantastic. Here's my boatload of evidence that it is. Yeah. Because not only do I have all the evidence from research and the, and data and everything else, I've got 33 years of lived experience. Let me tell you that. It does work. You just have to want something different. So in the same way I have to want, as a speaker, I have to want To impact lives. Yeah. As much as I want to make a living and those two things, yeah. Have to marry and like the Tony Robbins, the white teeth, the performance for me there's like either the make a living is such a higher definition. Yeah. Or like there's something a little bit wonky 'cause calling. To me invokes more service. Yeah. Invokes less performance and more impact. And so that's why I use the word Yeah. Because the performance stuff drives me nuts too. I like, I mean I got my teeth whitened before I did my TEDx. 'cause that thing's going on, all four of them actually. 'cause it's going on YouTube, it's living forever. And like I look sometimes like I'm swallowing corn So like, okay, I drink way too much coffee for me to have a white smile. I'm drinking, I'm drinking coffee right
Kirsten:
00:13:01
now. So.
Kristen:
00:13:02
Way too much coffee. So like, don't let me say you don't look professional. Like I know I, I'm in a hoodie right now, but trust me, in my TEDxes there was Spanx and heels involved. I'm kidding. I showed up and turned out and when I speak, yeah, now I show up and I'm turned out. But there's a difference in, if you don't know what Kirsten is talking about, there's a difference in the used car salesman. Yeah. Vibes no matter what you look like. But yeah, I also have a problem with that method of speaking, which is a whole lot about yelling and berating people. But that's a completely separate
Kirsten:
00:13:33
Yeah. It's funny because when I, you know, I was having my conversation about Tony Robbins, I was asked, well, you know, do you watch a lot of his stuff? And I said, to be honest, I don't. I find it, you know, it doesn't really read for me. Mm-Hmm. And what he said was, well, he really is able to change lives. I'm like, okay, that's great. But the amount of service that you would have to be doing to equal that. Like would have to be, I mean, making the blind see kind of level of just doesn't read for me. And
Kristen:
00:14:00
I hear that a lot. And my thing is like, I've been a social scientist for a hot minute. I don't find that people change their being shamed. Mm-Hmm. Uh, they change their behavior maybe, but they don't fundamentally change how they see the world or how they move through the world. Except with stories and relationships and so much of his model, which I have watched his stuff, and it's Benny in with a different God to me. Mm-Hmm. Joel Osteen with a different God to me. Yeah, exactly. There are a lot of temporary opinions and behaviors. Yeah. More than it is like redirecting lives and it's showmanship. I also, I'm such a cynic, like I get that, but I don't buy that those folks aren't planted Okay, sure enough. 'cause so much of your, so much of your income is derived on making sure that people are changed. Yeah, that the like, well, we know Benny Hins were planted. So what makes you different? Like that's, I'm enough of a cynic that that bothers
Kirsten:
00:14:55
me. Yeah, it so, so it's funny because like I'm a very theatrical person and I'm very theatrical in my stuff. And one of my dear speaker friends is Dean, who is, he is the dean, and I will put his link in the show notes. He's amazing. And he's, he's a magician who's also a speaker, and he's v Villian. Okay. This is a man who thinks in title case, like that's how he moves through the world. And you know what's just really funny is, is that. He's got that same sort of pavilion energy and I am gonna, it's gonna kill me that I brought up his first name and not his last. So I'm gonna double check just to make sure Hanky. There we go. 'cause I knew I was gonna say, say it wrong and I did not wanna get it wrong. So Dean hanky, like his pavilion. Haya is so 100% who he is as a person. That's who he is. In the dark moments, that's who he is. When I call him up and it's just him and me, he's that. So the problem I have with the really stage lights version is I respect the showmanship, but like I have to know what's
Kristen:
00:15:59
underneath it. Yeah. That's a better way to say what I was stumbling through, you know?
undefined:
00:16:02
True.
Kirsten:
00:16:03
Have you ever seen o, and I'm gonna blank on his name, Australian played Wolverine. Hugh Jackman, Hugh Jackman. Have you ever seen the Hugh Jackman retrospective, uh, my Life or Hugh the show, or
Kristen:
00:16:15
whatever it's called? No, I just saw him in Music Man though, like last year. Oh. And
Kirsten:
00:16:19
that was incredible. That is one of the best designed shows I have ever. No, it's hands down. It's the best designed stage performance I've ever seen anywhere. And he's fully, authentically himself in every single moment. And. The floor design, the air design, the light design, like all of it is so good that I was watching and I was blown away by the show, but I was also blown away by how careful they were with the journey they were taking the audience on. Because you go through a long emotional journey in that show, and they take you to places where you're crying. And then you are cheering and they're very careful about that journey. And I was watching the rollercoaster that was happening in me because after one singer was on, I was sobbing. She was so beautiful and it was so heart wrenching and it was just amazing. And then he came out and it was the exact right amount of lighten it up and you could tell it was calibrated like with a fine instrument. That's the level of showmanship that I want to achieve because it comes from a passionate belief in the audience's journey. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's the part that I feel like gets lost in some of the, come look at me, I am a God. It's like, yeah, we
Kristen:
00:17:30
know. Yeah. It's all one volume. Yeah. Like it's, it's a lot of, all one volume. Yeah. I am often all one volume or one note. I know that like I'm not for everybody. And my talks aren't for everybody. It's one of the reasons I love doing workshops with my best friend because we are such different energy. She's a really, we're both very funny and we have really good banter against each other 'cause we've been best friends for 12 years, but she has a much quieter energy. She's an introvert, she's much more calm, like stating the facts kind of thing. And I'm all over the place like a chaos monster. And so I really love doing things with her more than I like doing things apart. It's not always feasible in terms of our lives for that to happen. But the question I ask myself a lot is as I craft my tones of voice and as I, I mean obviously as I craft my PowerPoints, is what is the pedagogy of this? Mm-Hmm, How are we pedagogically leading people through this? Where should the activities be? Where should the moments of silence be? Where should all of that do? And how do I do that as one human in 60 minutes? How do we do that as one human or two humans online? Like that's always the question I'm asking is pedagogically, does this make sense? Does my argument land? Have I built it? Well, I. To where it's not overwhelming. 'cause a lot of what we do, I'll be really honest, is pretty brand new information for people. Yeah. It's a different, it's a real different way to look at it. Yeah. I mean like I teach you come to one of my burnout seminars and I open with the 16th, with the 17th century Puritans. Like you're not
Kirsten:
00:18:53
expecting that. Yeah, exactly. That might be a little there. People are like, wait a minute. What?
Kristen:
00:18:57
Excuse me. Yeah. And I'm like, no, go with me. Here we go. Yeah. So I have a responsibility intellectually for them to lead them responsibly through the argument. Yeah. And that's my, and when we wrote, we just published our burnout book, actually our book on the culture burnout. And that was the argument, that was the question I kept asking to every single editor. Mm-Hmm. was, does the argument hang? Is it cogent? Does it go? So I don't often remember showmanship, or even better, I forget it, in service to the pedagogy. And I forget. What the emotional thing can be. I'm so like, well, how can the mental argument happen? Okay. It's like I've been doing my talks on burnout for eight, eight years. Eight years, okay. And it never, it like. I used to do quiet reflection at the end of it. Mm-Hmm. it never occurred to me in the middle that people would need me to pause and for them to process this brand new information I gave them before I gave them even more brand new information. Ah, and
Kirsten:
00:19:56
when did you get that message? Oh, like this year. Oh, okay. After eight
Kristen:
00:19:59
years. Like this year? Yeah. Okay. Pathetically It took me this long to figure it out where it couldn't happen all at the end. Okay. It had to happen throughout it. I,
Kirsten:
00:20:08
I'm gonna need you to rephrase that because. It's not pathetic. This is
Kristen:
00:20:12
the journey we do. It's true, but it feels very like, oh my God, how did I not realize this? Mm-Hmm. And some of that is because that the strict pedagogy needs to marry the showmanship. Yes.
Kirsten:
00:20:24
Okay. There
Kristen:
00:20:25
we are. Thank you. That's And that's what I can't do all the time. Very well. That's a still point of growth for me.
Kirsten:
00:20:31
Okay. I love it. I love it. And I would say that for me it's probably the reverse. Okay. 'cause I know that like I can nail the pedagogy as long as I'm not emotionally swept away by where I'm bringing people. So, interesting. I have to be careful not to go into the emotional journey at the expense of the content.
Kristen:
00:20:52
Ooh, interesting. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. You know? Okay. Yeah.
Kirsten:
00:20:55
I very much, I will throw out entire sections in service to
Kristen:
00:20:59
the moment. Oh. And I don't know what the moment is until it's passed. Oh,
Kirsten:
00:21:04
interesting. Interesting. Though. I'm always like, right. I'm riding literally right on the cusp of it.
Kristen:
00:21:10
This would be fun for us to do something together. This would be hilarious. That would be good. I'd love it. It would be, I think it would be, I am so practical.
Kirsten:
00:21:19
Yeah, and I'm a completely, I'm now a completely instinct. Well, not completely, 'cause I'm working on it. I'm a very instinctual speaker. So, yeah. I mean, I do a lot of lives where I don't have anything planned because I honestly want people to see me mess up because I want them to see a speaker that keeps going even when it's not working. Song, you know? And it's like, I really need my audience to know that because that's part of my mission is like, no, come on it. Honestly, nobody's on fire and nobody's bleeding. It's okay. Yeah. But yeah. Lemme, and I should, we should do something together. Oh
undefined:
00:21:53
my
Kristen:
00:21:54
really fun. That'd great. Yeah, that would be really fun. Oh my gosh. Yeah. My thing is I still improv like sections of stuff. Yeah. But what I have learned as I stepped into more professionalism, and I need to credit my speaker coach doing this, her name is Tricia Brook and she's often, she's somebody who people sometimes know I had the privilege of working with her, and one of the things that she taught me is you can improv as long as you want inside the sandbox. The problem is when the sandbox becomes a sand pile and there's no box, nice. And that's not her language, that's mine. Like, that's what she taught me to. She might not even love that I said that, but that's what all of her teaching taught was. I used to just speak and like wander around the sand pile and like it would be fine. And she taught me to have the box. Yeah. And then if in the middle of the talk, all four of my TED talks, by the way, all four of them I messed, I messed up from the script. I rewrote sections as I talked all of my talks since then, with the exception of one 'cause I read it. All of my memorized talks. Since then, I have rewritten passages in the middle of it. Mm-Hmm. And so what I think if I could pass on one thing to some people also about the nerves, I realize, like back to that question is if I have that sandbox, if I have the box built mm-Hmm I know that sand man. I can play anywhere in it and it'll be fine. So I don't worry about the content, I don't worry about saying something wrong because I can't, I know the box. I know the box and that was a huge thing that that helps with for me is the post-event. Let down, oh yeah, the crash. What did I, did I say the right thing? Did I screw up? What did I do wrong? If I stayed in the box, I, the box is fine. I make sure my scripts for things go through other people. Yep. Like. If we establish the box, I don't have anything to worry about. The adrenaline crash is a thing and I sleep and Mm-Hmm, I have snacks and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But except the one time where I didn't have it, 'cause I had to get directly on a plane. I did two TEDx talks in five days. And so that was, that was a lot. That was a pretty big crash. The next day I'm give you the face going, okay, that was a choice. It's a big crash. It's a pretty big crash. Yeah. Um, but I don't overanalyze to the extent that I used to when I would just get up there and do an improv show. Mm-Hmm. So I will pass that on to new speakers, is that the nerves should stay the post analysis. Mm-Hmm. doesn't have to be as painful as it might be for you right now. Yeah. There are ways to make it not as shaming. Yeah, the, the
Kirsten:
00:24:17
crash is gonna happen in whatever form it happens for people. It, it always happens for, for folks, no matter what their, their own version of it. But I love the idea of defining the box. The boundaries of this is what should be the expectations, these are the rules of engagement. And from that we party. Yeah,
Kristen:
00:24:33
I love that. Whatever. And then within that, I'm instinctual. I'll crack jokes if I feel it needs to be cracked. I'll hold the silence if I think it needs to. I'll read their faces. Yep. But I, I can do the instinct on that. Okay. But I used to get up there and just do everything instinctually and that was not good for me and how I explained things because I couldn't make the argument I was trying to make. Yeah.
Kirsten:
00:24:54
Yeah. It's, you gotta keep the, through the through line going Wow that you have gotten the meat right there. And I'm gonna end on that because That's perfect. I had to look it up just because it was bugging me. So I think the name of the show I'm talking about is actually the Hugh Jackman tour. Okay. If you ever get a chance to see it, he goes through his entire life and he acts out different characters. Oh my gosh. And he brings in videos of his family. I mean, it is brilliant. Ooh, okay. Stunningly good theater design, like the best I've ever seen. I was just in awe. Okay. Um, so if you ever get a chance, it's 100% worth. It. Sounds good. You know, so where can people find you in all the, you know, all the socials, all the places. So my
Kristen:
00:25:40
company is called Abbey Research. It's A-B-B-E-Y, the word research. And you can find our website@argooddoctors.com. Everything you need, including all of my keynotes, all my TEDxes, all of it is all there on that website ar good doctors.com.
Kirsten:
00:26:00
Fantastic. And you mentioned a book. Mm-Hmm. do you wanna just talk about for a quick minute? Oh gosh. I would be only
Kristen:
00:26:06
delighted Um, I mean, as long as you're here. Yeah. While I'm here. So Aaron and I wrote a book called The Culture of Burnout: Why Your Exhaustion Is Not Your Fault. Our contention is that America in particular is a culture of burnout, which means that we are a culture that celebrates burnout, is not actually interested in preventing it or solving it. Mm-Hmm. and is interested in making it your individual problem so that it's your individual failure when you are burned out. Instead, we trace how America has decided that your work ethic is tied to your personal morality. Why we are the way we are, how we got there, how we started, and then what the heck we do about it. Oh, holy crap. So
Kirsten:
00:26:44
if you'd I, I, I have to buy that book as soon as we're off this call because oh my God, that is so me. It's available. God, in both, my God. Kellie's gonna her ass off when she watches this recording because that's exactly. 100%. Okay.
Kristen:
00:27:00
It's me too. It's me too. I had a, uh, large mental health rewriting slash breakdown, depending on how honest I'm being on the given day while we were writing this, and a big part of how we kind of came to this was I did a talk at a festival last year called Belief and Belonging about the Puritans. How the Puritan's legacy to us is that you're only a good person if you work hard. Oh, and that's their theological legacy to us that none of us have ever rewritten. We've just codified it into ca, into American Civic religion of capitalism. And remind me the name of your book. The Culture of Burnout: Why You're Exhaustion Is Not Your Fault. It's available on Amazon in Kindle and paperback. There it is. Scott, see it. It's a very pretty color cover. I'm very proud of it. It's very,
Kirsten:
00:27:42
very, yes. All right. My Kristen Donnelley. And Erin. Erin Hinson. Yep. Fantastic. All right, so everybody's homework. Buy the damn book because I'm laughing. I'm just Yeah, that's exactly what, yeah, I struggle. Yeah.
Kristen:
00:27:56
Yeah. I it's, it's one of those, it fell out of our fingers as soon as we started writing it. 'cause we were like, oh, we have a lot of feelings about this
Kirsten:
00:28:04
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Okay. Well. And now I'm gonna wrap it up and I'm gonna say to everybody, check her out on the socials, give comments, give feedback. Please like, please subscribe. Please do all the things for all the socials, and we will see you next time. Remember, please, she is a coach. I am a coach. If you want services, you can hire us. We work for money. That's how the world is. Yay. Alright, thank you everybody. See you next time. If you enjoyed this conversation about the entrepreneurial journey, check out season one, episode number five, our conversation about managing your energy while speaking on stage. The link is in the show notes.
