Exposing Brandy “Hellville” and the Nickelodeon Scandals: Journalist Kate Taylor

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for a special discount of 15% off. Welcome back to Misunderstood.
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I'm your host, Rachel Uchitel. I'm really excited for you
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guys to listen to today's episode. Today, we're sitting down
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with Kate Taylor. She is the senior features correspondent for
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Business Insider. Kate's known for her in-depth investigative work covering
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everything from business trends to major industry scandals. We'll be
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talking about her journey, how she found her way into journalism,
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what inspired her to become a writer, and what drives
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her passion for uncovering the stories that matter. We also
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dig into two of her biggest stories that made a
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huge impact. One exposing the scandal at Nickelodeon, which you
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may or may not have seen. Stuff about maybe it
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was last year. And another one uncovering some shocking details
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about the fashion brand Brandy Melville. These investigations were so
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powerful that they didn't just stay on the page. They
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turned into full-length documentaries. You guys really need to check
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them out. We're excited to hear from Kate about her career,
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her approach to storytelling, and what it's like to break
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stories that can shake up entire industries. We also hear
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what she's going to be following and covering next. Please
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enjoy my conversation with the one and only Kate Taylor. Hey, Kate,
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thank you so much for joining me on Misunderstood. How
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are you?
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Yes, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. How
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are you?
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I'm great. I feel like it's such an honor to
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meet you. You are such a well-respected journalist. And in
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this day and age, I feel like it's very hard
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to find actual people that do this for a living
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because so many people have become journalists. in social media.
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They're covering things like they have all the inside scoop
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when they're getting it from people like you. So I
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wanted to say thank you. And I wanted to have
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you on to really talk about the details of how
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you kind of investigate stories, get them into print, and
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then how that translates on screen for us all to enjoy.
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So I think you're fascinating. So again, thank you.
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Yes, of course. And I love talking about kind of
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the process and helping illuminate how it all comes together.
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Yeah. So actually my first question is, I know you're
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at Columbia University right now, taking time out to do
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this fellowship. Can you tell us what you're doing there?
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Yes. I'm doing the Knight Badget Fellowship right now at Columbia,
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which is a fellowship for business journalists where we basically
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go to Columbia Business School for a year. And it's
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an opportunity to kind of learn all of the wonky
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details about accounting and statistics and economics. And I've been
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reporting kind of on businesses, but mostly for a non-businessy
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audience for the last 10 years. So it was a
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chance to really go deeper and learn those hard skills,
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but also to meet a bunch of different people and
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kind of learn about how all of these people see
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business and see the world. So it's been a really
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interesting time and I've been really loving the chance to
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kind of go deep on these hard skills that I
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did not learn in college because I wanted to be
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a writer and I never thought about being a business
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writer until it kind of ended up happening that way. Yeah.
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Business writing is such a different thing. So I worked
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at Bloomberg news for many years. And what I found
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is there were two different ways to go about like
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having that job. You had to learn television and news,
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but then you also, you know, the facets of what
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goes into breaking news and what goes into a story
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and the facts and being first and all that stuff.
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And then business is totally different. You have to you know,
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there has to be stuff about the company and the
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scandal that goes involved or like hitting their numbers or,
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you know, it's just such a different ballgame. So it
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is difficult. And I don't think people realize that. But
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people that are consuming entertainment news, you know, it's just
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it's just the dirty details that they care about, I think.
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So how did you get into wanting to be a
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writer when you were younger?
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I was someone who I always loved writing. I loved
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reading so much. I think pretty much my entire career
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can be based on the fact that I just love
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to read. And in college, I majored in history. I
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was someone who loved that because I could read, I
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could write, I could read all these archival sources. But
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when I was graduating, I wasn't sure what I wanted
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to do with that degree necessarily. So I wanted a
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job where I could write every day, which ended up
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being an intern at Forbes magazine. So- that I really
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ended up loving that. But I wasn't someone in college
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who was super involved in the school newspaper. I wrote
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an advice column. I wasn't someone who was doing these
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deep dive investigations who knew that that was going to
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be what I wanted to do with my life. It
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was more the writing and love of writing and research
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came first. And then reporting kind of followed that.
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So you're known as now the senior features correspondent at
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Business Insider. Can you talk about how you got that job?
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Yeah. So after college, I was at Forbes as an
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intern for a bit. Then I went from there to
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Entrepreneur Magazine where I ended up reporting on franchises. So
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that's a lot of reporting on fast food, but other
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franchises and franchises in general. And then Business Insider around
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2015 reached out to me and said, hey, we want
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someone to write about the business of fast food. And
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I had some background doing that. And I loved writing
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about fast food as a business because I think that
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that's something that everyone can relate to and everyone's interested in.
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I think you understand having worked at Bloomberg that all
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of these companies, there's so much inherent drama and interesting
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stories there. But I think that for a lot of readers,
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it doesn't feel super immediate to them or it doesn't
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feel relevant to them. And fast food, it's one of
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those business stories that does feel relevant to everyone because
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people can be like, okay, I don't care that much
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about the CEO or like what does inflation mean to me?
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But then when you say, oh, this is going to
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increase the price of your hamburger by this much, that
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impacts everyone across the country.
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Yeah.
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You know, it's interesting. I think in fast food, people
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started paying attention, or at least I started paying attention
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a lot more when that guy, now I'm going to
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forget his name. He's dead now from cancer, but Morgan,
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something Morgan's, Morgan Spurlock.
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Oh, yes.
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Yeah, yeah. The fast food.
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Yes.
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And what was that called? Fast food.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. And that was a crazy inside look into what
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fast food does for you. I mean, that's one specific angle. But,
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you know, I found it fascinating. And then I think
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people are kind of wondering, did he die early because
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of his exposure to fast food? Were you in were
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you doing the covering of that stuff when that movie
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came out?
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I was a little bit after the movie, but I
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think that the impact of that movie was so great
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on the industry where for so long, I think these
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companies were like, okay, all customers want is like, how
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much bang can they get for their buck? Can they
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get more, more, more for less money? And then that
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movie came out and people were like, actually, this is
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really bad for us. Like, maximize.
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Guessing how many calories we can get for the least
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amount of dollars is actually harmful, and like, that is
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not a good deal. That is a bad deal for
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us in an entirely different way. So when I started
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reporting on fast food, it was a bit more of like, okay,
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how do we win customers over while not just making
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it really, really cheap to consume a ton of calories?
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And I think that they're still trying to figure that out.
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It's interesting. I mean, in the pandemic, all of these
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places just stopped serving salads. And I think that they
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still haven't brought back the salads at a lot of
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places because it was everyone added salads to the menu
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in part to be like, oh, no, we can be
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a healthy choice. But it's this interesting balance where these
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type of companies, they have customers who say they want
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to be healthy. But in reality, do they actually want
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to be healthy? And I think that it's a difficult
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business decision to distinguish what people say they want versus
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what they really want.
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Do you think they're, I'm just curious, do you think
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they're really catering to people that don't, you know, that
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cannot afford going out to regular, you know, to supermarkets
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and spending that kind of money and, you know, going
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out to eat? I mean, are we talking about a
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much more low economic rate? group of people or that,
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you know, is fast food catering to everyone and just
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trying to make it edible. And that's why they're putting
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so much sugar in because you get addicted to it.
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I mean, there's so many different things that I.
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Know there's so much there. It's fascinating. And it's a
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little bit different for different chains. I think that they
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ultimately are trying to cater to everyone. And like, yeah,
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that is always the goal, because if you have a
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customer who is only going there because it's the only
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thing they can afford, then if you raise prices a
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little bit, then you lose them and then you don't
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have anyone shopping there. So I think all of them
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are trying to maximize, but it is sometimes, I mean,
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when the economy is tough, you have more people going
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to McDonald's for a little bit of time. Like it's
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all this kind of like interesting series of checks and
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balances there where it's a fascinating business to write about.
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And I really enjoyed writing about it. And then I
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kind of went from that to doing more long form features.
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And then that turned into doing more investigations as well.
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And I mean, one of the first big long form
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things I did was about McDonald's CEO, who was basically
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ousted in this sex scandal where it was all of
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this wild kind of behind the scenes stuff that you
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expect for a company that's a little bit more hip
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than McDonald's, but it's happening. It was such a wild
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story and, And I was like, what is actually going
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on here? So that was one that one of my
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first bigger features.
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So had the news come out that he was already
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ousted and then you were like, let me go down
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this rabbit hole and see what happened?
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Yes. And that was kind of, he was ousted very suddenly.
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And then months later, he was ousted for kind of
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inappropriate relationships with one woman. And then months later, it
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came out that there had been other women at McDonald's
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that he had been having kind of exchanging sexual messages
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and photos with. And one of the women apparently had
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received kind of preferential treatment as a result. So it was,
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I kind of just talked to everyone I could. I
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think that there were still, I would love to revisit
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that story because I still have questions about what exactly happened.
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But among the people I talked to, I talked to
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his former girlfriend, the CEO's former girlfriend to be like,
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what happened here? Like, what was this guy like? And
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just something I always enjoy in reporting is trying to
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understand the human motivations behind these decisions, especially when they're
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inexplicable or bad decisions. So just like, why would someone
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who has his dream job blow it up in this manner?
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You know, running a business can be challenging, especially when
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it comes to managing sales and making sure everything runs smoothly.
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That's where Shopify has made all the difference for me.
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For our misunderstood merch, Shopify has been a game changer. Before,
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we struggled with keeping track of orders and making the
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buying business seamless for our fans. but now everything's in
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one place. The checkout process, super smooth, just like we
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want it to be for our audience. With Shopify, I
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00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:09.059
don't have to worry about technical headaches, whether it's selling
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directly from our website or across social media. It's all connected.
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The best part, it's the same checkout system we use ourselves.
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Trust me, it's easy, reliable, and our fans love it too.
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with Shopify. Sign up for your $ 1 per month trial
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period at shopify.com slash understood in all lowercase. Go to shopify.com
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slash understood to upgrade your selling today. That's shopify.com slash understood. Yeah. Well,
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I mean, I think from a very surface level, you know,
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answer of that, it seems common. I hate to even
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use that word, but people with a lot of power
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think that they can get a lot away with a
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lot of things. And also that power becomes, I think,
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intoxicating to them. I don't know what this guy looks like.
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I don't know what his past was, but I'm assuming
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that he went from one level of being a dude,
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you know, to like a CEO of a company with
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a lot of money. And I don't know what he
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looked like, but his bank account probably looked good to
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a lot of people. And therefore he could entertain different
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people that he couldn't have before, maybe. I mean, that's
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simplifying it a lot, but that's what sounds like happens
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in many of these situations. And they think that they
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could get away with stuff that they eventually can't. So
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it becomes interesting. I just want to go back to
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the fast food stuff for one second, because I'm fascinated
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by it. I go to fast food chains because I
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have a 12 year old daughter. And when I pick
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her and her friends up at school, They want to
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go to different places. And what I have realized is
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that customer service does matter. I've actually said it out
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loud because when I go to Chick-fil-A, I feel like
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it's a completely different experience than going to a McDonald's
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or even a Dunkin' Donuts. Do you know what I mean?
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And Dunkin' Donuts is a franchise and maybe Chick-fil-A is too.
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I don't know. You would know. But so I do
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think that's made a big difference. I don't love the
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food at Chick-fil-A, but I'm like, we're going to go
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there because it's run like a real restaurant. Like I've
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told the manager over before, not in a drive-thru, but
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like in a place. And I'm like, you run this
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place like superb. It's amazing.
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Chick-fil-A is such an interesting case study because it is
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actually because of how its franchise model is. And it's
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different than other chains like McDonald's is franchised. Dunkin' is franchised.
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Chick-fil-A is franchised, but each franchisee can only have one location.
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So in a lot of ways, it is more similar
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to a mom and pop restaurant, like a normal independent restaurant,
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because that franchisee, this one location is their entire job,
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making sure everything is run right and making sure kind
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of everyone acts in the way that they're supposed to act.
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And like customer service is such a big thing for
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Chick-fil-A and they're able to, like I'm sure every restaurant
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chain would be like, wow, I wish our employees were
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kind of so consistently polite. But you can't really make
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that happen when you're a franchisee who has dozens of
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locations and you're not in stores every day. And you
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aren't paying your employees that much. People are not going
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to be that on it if they don't feel like
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someone is paying attention to them and they aren't being
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paid that much. So I think that Chick-fil-A has really
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done an amazing job in terms of thinking about that,
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in terms of customer service. They've regularly kind of rate
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at the top of all of the chains for that.
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And they are one of the most profitable fast food
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chains as a result. And I think a big reason
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that they're the most profitable is that customer service.
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Yeah, amazing. And it's definitely noticeable. Okay, so one of
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the big things where you came into my life as
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I saw you on the screen for a couple of
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different reasons, one of them really started with the Brandy
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Melville scandal and it was a docu-series, documentary, whatever it was.
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Yes, yeah, documentary.
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And so- Tell us about that because I don't know
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that as many people as, you know, I've brought it
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up to a couple of people. Some people, of course,
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know Brandy Melville, do not know about the scandal and
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haven't yet seen it on TV, which they should. It's fascinating.
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I mean, we all grew up kind of knowing about it,
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wanting to fit it in their clothes. My daughter still
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to this day talks about it. So can you fill
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our listeners in on, you know, what this store is
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or what this company is and how this scandal came about?
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Yeah, so Brandy Melville is this teen retailer where they're
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selling clothes to essentially teenage girls kind of going into
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your 20s, maybe.
355
00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:36.089
Like what you hear? Tune into USL All Access live
356
00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.250
every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC
357
00:18:39.289 --> 00:18:43.329
channel 188 for exclusive interviews and the latest from around
358
00:18:43.349 --> 00:18:47.619
the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL,
359
00:18:48.019 --> 00:18:52.759
Sirius XM FC. is North America's only 24-7 source for
360
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.160
engaging soccer talk and live matches from the USL, Premier League,
361
00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.940
and more. All on SiriusXM FC channel 188 and the
362
00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:03.119
SiriusXM app.
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The 30s, but their real market focuses teams. And their
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selling point is that they do one size fits all.
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So they only sell things in one size. And for
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some things, it's kind of oversized tops. For some things,
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it's just a pair of jeans, which only selling those
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in one size, only a pretty specific group of people
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is going to be able to wear them. I was
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interested in Brandy Melville back in 2021, where I was
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really interested because they'd grown so much. And I was
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curious who their CEO was just to be like, huh,
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like it's interesting. This only has one size. It's interesting.
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It's so popular. Whose idea was this? So I started
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trying to Google the CEO and I just couldn't find
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the name anywhere, which When you're a reporter, you know
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CEOs love to talk about themselves. They love to talk
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about their business. It's so rare to have a CEO
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who is not trying to get their name out there.
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So I started looking through court documents to just figure
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out who was running this thing. And that was when
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I found these lawsuits accusing Brandy Melville of racial discrimination
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and And from there, I started talking to more and
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more people. And what came together was this company was
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a place where, in addition to only selling one size,
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their employees were expected to be young, thin, ideally blonde,
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and white. And I heard from Black and Latina employees
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who said, I just couldn't get hired. Or I was
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forced to work in the stockroom while these very thin
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white employees were given better paying jobs where they were
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on the floor and in some cases kind of even
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elevated to models and to being able to get these perks.
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But the flip side of getting these perks was spending
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more time with this small circle of male executives where
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people discussed feeling like they were exploited. I talked with
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one young woman who said she was sexually abused by
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one of the male kind of people in this inner circle.
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And I heard from several people that they felt they
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had to undress to be fully nude in front of
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these male executives. And that was kind of part and
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parcel with having these extra perks and being able to
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be promoted. So it was a really shocking investigation where
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just even the most basic things that people were hired
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and fired based on being thin and white were to
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me shocking. They had to send photos of themselves every
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single day to these male executives. So I was really
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shocked by all of this. And There were so many
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bizarre details.
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So was there not one CEO? Was it a group
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of executives that had bought the company?
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There was one CEO, Stefan Marsan, but he kind of
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worked in close collaboration with this group of mostly Italian
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male executives who were also involved in making decisions. But
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Stefan was kind of the CEO of a series of
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shell companies that ran Brandy Malfell. Wow.
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Um, okay. So, and explain how you kind of got access,
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how you, how you started penetrating this enough that you
418
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were able to pitch this, um, as you know, something
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that you could put on paper that then somebody bought
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into it and said, we got to put this on TV.
421
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Yeah. So my original reporting, I had access to these
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lawsuits and all of these materials related to the lawsuits,
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which was incredibly helpful.
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I think that for people- And that's just public, it's
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out there on the public record.
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Public record, which I think that when you're a journalist,
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a lot of readers understandably kind of are like, oh,
428
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why should I trust you? Why should I trust these
429
00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:39.130
anonymous sources? But when you have actual materials that are
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publicly available in a lawsuit, it really removes a lot
431
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of that doubt. But in addition to that, just to
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kind of understand and conceptualize this, I talked to more
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than 30 current and it's all true. And in fact,
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00:22:55.579 --> 00:22:58.420
there were even worse things happening as well. So I
435
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published all of that. And from there, um, there was
436
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interest in a documentary and the documentary that ended up
437
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being made, uh, by a very talented director who has
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like won an Oscar before. Um, she took this inspiration
439
00:23:13.609 --> 00:23:15.630
from Brady Melville and was able to turn it into
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a wider reflection on fast fashion and not only how
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00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.359
there's exploitation at Brady Melville, but what does this look
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00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.500
like in the wider fashion industry and how much waste
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00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:29.200
there is and how it impacts women, not just in
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00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.539
the US working for Brandy, but around the world.
445
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After covering the scandal, do you believe that consumer awareness
446
00:23:36.859 --> 00:23:41.319
and social media backlash have effectively pressured Brandy Melville to change?
447
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.089
Like what's gone on in the company since?
448
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That's something that I'm still trying to figure out because
449
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I had such a great response from people who had
450
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worked at Brandy Melville who said, thank you for getting
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the truth out. This means a lot to me that
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this is out in the world. But on the flip side,
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they still seem to be doing a booming business. It
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does not seem to have impacted their sales as far
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as I can see. So it's a little bit of
456
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a difficult question because I want to believe that people,
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when they find out a company is exploiting teenage girls,
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people would stop shopping there. But I haven't seen that
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00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:20.579
actually happen. And I don't know if it's a lack
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00:24:20.779 --> 00:24:22.940
of people knowing about this.
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00:24:23.019 --> 00:24:24.500
Or people- Yeah, I mean, I would think it's a
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00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:26.700
lack of awareness. I don't know that those teenagers are
463
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.710
the ones reading your article. I don't know that those
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00:24:28.730 --> 00:24:33.089
teenagers are the ones that are seeing that documentary. Did
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that come out on Netflix?
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It's on HBO, HBO Max.
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00:24:36.970 --> 00:24:40.390
Yeah, HBO, that's right. So I don't know that it's
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seeped its way in and sometimes that does take years,
469
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you know what I mean? And then it comes around.
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Were you able to access any of those male executives
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and talk to them?
472
00:24:52.009 --> 00:24:55.180
No, I was obviously in reporting. I reached out to everyone,
473
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tried to talk to everyone, but I talked to, um,
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00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.670
some people who had left and who were male executives
475
00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:04.269
who were now kind of had turned against the company,
476
00:25:04.769 --> 00:25:07.799
but no current executives were willing to speak with me.
477
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.109
Um, I mean, there's a growing trend of people that
478
00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:14.650
are whistleblowers or people that want to come out and
479
00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:17.450
speak in every industry. I mean, from fast food to
480
00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:22.200
tech to retail, whatever the scandal might be. Did you
481
00:25:22.299 --> 00:25:23.960
find that it was really hard to get people to
482
00:25:24.019 --> 00:25:26.200
want to talk because they were nervous of the backlash,
483
00:25:26.299 --> 00:25:29.099
especially in something like this where nothing seems to be
484
00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:32.009
affected in the company? So why talk? You know, you
485
00:25:32.049 --> 00:25:34.609
can't if they can't bring them down, you can't elevate
486
00:25:34.630 --> 00:25:37.130
your position. What's the reasoning that they're going to do it?
487
00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:40.410
It was incredibly difficult to get people to talk. And
488
00:25:40.450 --> 00:25:43.210
there's so much fear that is still built in to
489
00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:46.359
people where they were really scared about what would happen
490
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:48.440
to them. And for a lot of them, they still
491
00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:51.799
are friends with people who have worked there or continue
492
00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:55.200
to work there. It's a real community mindset. So I
493
00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:57.680
think that for people, that was a little bit of
494
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.069
a double-edged sword. Some people were afraid of speaking up
495
00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.369
if it would hurt people who were still working there.
496
00:26:03.450 --> 00:26:06.069
But I think that for a lot of people who
497
00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:08.880
spoke with me, while they hoped that there would be
498
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.680
bigger changes and it would impact the company's bottom line,
499
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.619
it also felt like they were able to speak to
500
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.059
kind of tell other women, this wasn't just you, like
501
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.319
I experienced this as well. And that was a way
502
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:23.599
to create change and create community and kind of make
503
00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.480
something of this traumatic experience for them. Yeah.
504
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.039
I don't follow the company that well. Do they still
505
00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:31.240
have brick and mortar stores or has it moved to
506
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:31.900
just online?
507
00:26:32.369 --> 00:26:34.900
They still have brick and mortar stores and they're expanding
508
00:26:35.009 --> 00:26:38.519
into restaurants now. I haven't reported too much on this,
509
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:41.619
but they've been doing more in the restaurant space and
510
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.880
they're continuing international expansion.
511
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.410
Interesting. You mean to put a restaurant like in addition
512
00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:49.589
where the retail space is?
513
00:26:49.609 --> 00:26:52.049
They kind of are opening these little cafes that are
514
00:26:52.089 --> 00:26:55.410
not called Bernie Melville, but they've started opening restaurants under
515
00:26:55.470 --> 00:26:58.910
different names that are next to or around. I need
516
00:26:59.009 --> 00:27:04.210
to return to my reporting on this. If anyone watches this,
517
00:27:04.329 --> 00:27:07.799
any inside scoop, reach out to me because they're I'm
518
00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:12.099
very curious about what the business plan is with this.
519
00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:14.180
It's very interesting.
520
00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:18.670
And it'll be interesting to see if it's all these skinny, white,
521
00:27:18.769 --> 00:27:21.529
young women being the hosts.
522
00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:22.650
Yes.
523
00:27:23.210 --> 00:27:25.730
Okay. So now let's get to another one that you
524
00:27:25.789 --> 00:27:29.289
did a lot of coverage on. You covered the Nickelodeon scandal.
525
00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:32.269
For people that are not aware of this, can you
526
00:27:32.309 --> 00:27:34.230
give us a brief synopsis of what that was?
527
00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:34.849
Yes.
528
00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:38.829
So I think that for years there have been Rumors
529
00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:45.509
and online discussions on Nickelodeon and Nickelodeon under Dan Schneider. Okay,
530
00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:46.390
let's get started.
531
00:27:47.109 --> 00:27:48.470
Are you first time buyers?
532
00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:54.210
Yeah, it's our first time. So, it's your first time here?
533
00:27:54.470 --> 00:27:58.839
No, it's first time buying. Did you say no for
534
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.380
first time buying?
535
00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:02.240
No, wait, hold on.
536
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.480
Okay, please hold.
537
00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:03.579
What?
538
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:06.640
No, no, I told you to hold on.
539
00:28:07.130 --> 00:28:11.490
You're viewing homes, not mortgage advisors. So find your nearest
540
00:28:11.569 --> 00:28:15.549
branch at ebs.ie to get a dedicated mortgage person throughout
541
00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:20.690
your mortgage journey. EBS, the mortgage people. Lending criteria, terms
542
00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:23.369
and conditions will apply. EBS DAC is regulated by the
543
00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:24.289
Central Bank of Ireland.
544
00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:26.599
And that was something that I think there's been so
545
00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:29.690
much talk about online, where people felt like certain things
546
00:28:29.710 --> 00:28:33.819
were established fact, and some were, and some were just rumours. So...
547
00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:36.779
In 2022, I decided to try and do this deep
548
00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:40.200
dive and actually talk to people and say, what happened
549
00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.460
when you were at Nickelodeon? What did you see? Do
550
00:28:43.099 --> 00:28:45.380
you feel like the public has an accurate viewpoint on this?
551
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.140
No, wait, sorry. Up until that moment, you had just
552
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.720
heard rumblings about it. Had it been in the media
553
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:51.799
at that point yet?
554
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:53.299
There was.
555
00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:55.660
He missed the boat with the Me Too thing. Like
556
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.460
he skated through it.
557
00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.799
It was something where there wasn't anything that came out
558
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.109
with Me Too. I had heard a lot. I was
559
00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.930
reporting there was a lot of rumblings at Nickelodeon during
560
00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:09.309
Me Too, like, is there going to be a Me
561
00:29:09.349 --> 00:29:13.349
Too for children's entertainment? Will it impact us? And there
562
00:29:13.430 --> 00:29:18.380
wasn't really a big reckoning at that moment for children's entertainment.
563
00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:20.900
There was an article about Dan Schneider in the New
564
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:24.640
York Times in 2021 that kind of delved into this,
565
00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:28.599
but also people who I had heard spoke with the
566
00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.400
New York Times for the article felt the resulting piece
567
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.730
was a little bit gave Dan Schneider credit on things
568
00:29:35.750 --> 00:29:38.380
that they don't think that he deserved credit on. Some
569
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.309
people felt like the piece was a little bit too
570
00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:43.839
positive to Dan Schneider. So when I wrote my article
571
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:49.000
in 2022, it kind of dug deeper into what the
572
00:29:49.099 --> 00:29:52.000
culture was on the set of this specific era of
573
00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:56.319
Nickelodeon shows. And I was focused pretty solidly on Dan
574
00:29:56.339 --> 00:29:58.640
Schneider and his shows. And some of the issues that
575
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.420
emerged was people felt like they couldn't really ever push
576
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:05.400
back against what he wanted. And he had total control
577
00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:09.819
over these kids' careers. And as a result, people felt
578
00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:12.480
like there were decisions that were maybe not appropriate for
579
00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:16.170
a kids' TV show, like scenes that had risque humor
580
00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:20.630
or outfits that were somewhat a little bit too mature
581
00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:22.930
or a little bit too, showed a little bit too
582
00:30:22.950 --> 00:30:27.759
much skin. So I published that and there were parts
583
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.640
of the story that I just, either didn't feel directly
584
00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:33.819
related to Dan Schneider or that I couldn't quite nail down.
585
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:39.460
So shortly after publishing, the directors who would become the
586
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.799
directors of Quiet on Set reached out and said, do
587
00:30:41.819 --> 00:30:44.420
you think there's more to this story? And I was like, yes, definitely.
588
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:47.730
I think there's so much more here. And what we
589
00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:50.609
worked on from there ended up becoming a docuseries called
590
00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:53.390
Quiet on Set, the dark side of kids TV that
591
00:30:53.470 --> 00:30:57.650
delved into these wider issues of child exploitation at the time.
592
00:30:57.809 --> 00:31:00.910
And Did you help with the research on that as well?
593
00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:02.890
Because that took it a step further.
594
00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:05.369
It took things a step further and it helped with
595
00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:07.430
the research and some of the access. But I have
596
00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:10.180
to say the directors also did an incredible job and
597
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.960
the whole team there did a great job really doggedly
598
00:31:14.019 --> 00:31:18.160
reporting and kind of trying to take things wider than
599
00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:19.690
my original investigation had.
600
00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:23.380
What is that like working on a piece and then
601
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:26.369
seeing how big it gets? And that did make a
602
00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:31.509
huge impact where people were talking about it. People were floored.
603
00:31:31.589 --> 00:31:33.289
I mean, it was making, it was like front page
604
00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:34.470
news for a really long time.
605
00:31:35.069 --> 00:31:37.970
It was really wild to kind of be working on
606
00:31:38.019 --> 00:31:41.660
something for so long. It can feel like it's very
607
00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:44.680
interior and you don't know what the reaction is going
608
00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:48.180
to be like. To have such a massive, massive immediate
609
00:31:48.220 --> 00:31:52.559
reaction was amazing. really gratifying in a way where you
610
00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:54.619
see how much people care about this and how much
611
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.539
people want to see change in this area. And that
612
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.079
is really helpful where it can, you can feel like
613
00:32:01.099 --> 00:32:03.099
you're working on something and you don't know if it's
614
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:06.039
going to actually make a change or if people will
615
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:09.160
care about this. And this was something that it felt
616
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.309
like people were very, very kind of invested in trying
617
00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:15.240
to find solutions.
618
00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:19.329
In terms of Nickelodeon, What do you think were the
619
00:32:19.369 --> 00:32:23.130
most significant factors that allowed this concerning behavior to persist
620
00:32:23.170 --> 00:32:27.380
behind the scenes for so long without public scrutiny? It
621
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:30.299
seems to happen all the time until it comes out.
622
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.680
When you hear these stories, it's like, oh, it's been
623
00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.099
happening for 10 years, for 20 years. The abuse was
624
00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:37.019
so bad. It wasn't just with one person. It was
625
00:32:37.059 --> 00:32:40.420
with 50 people. How do they keep it under wraps
626
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:41.259
for so long?
627
00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:44.339
I think one of the bigger things is the culture
628
00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:47.400
that existed and to some degree, I think continues to
629
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.220
exist in show business where there's this idea that for
630
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:53.920
child actors, they aren't really children, that they think of
631
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.259
themselves as adults because they're the ones who are supporting
632
00:32:57.299 --> 00:33:00.980
their family. And that puts them in situations where it
633
00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:05.549
becomes really difficult for them to say no to something
634
00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:08.869
or to escape a situation that might be uncomfortable because
635
00:33:09.289 --> 00:33:11.890
they have the pressure of being the breadwinner for their
636
00:33:11.930 --> 00:33:15.509
family on their shoulders. So that allows things to escalate.
637
00:33:15.670 --> 00:33:18.230
It also puts these kids in a situation where they
638
00:33:18.250 --> 00:33:22.009
can think I'm an adult. Like I can be having
639
00:33:22.049 --> 00:33:25.430
these adult relationships. Like it's normal for me to be
640
00:33:25.589 --> 00:33:29.170
friends with someone who is 30 years older than me.
641
00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:32.500
It's normal for me to be spending time one-on-one with
642
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.000
an adult who kind of might end up trying to
643
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:40.180
approach me sexually. And I think that it's hard because
644
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.450
in some ways, what, I heard from child actors who said,
645
00:33:44.470 --> 00:33:48.490
these relationships were really meaningful to me. They were mentorships.
646
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:52.160
I still have close, positive relationships with older people who
647
00:33:52.180 --> 00:33:54.299
took an interest in me that was not sexual at all.
648
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.960
But I think that the culture that treats these kids
649
00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:01.400
as adults and puts them in a position where everyone
650
00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:05.480
is treating them as if they are expected to be
651
00:34:05.980 --> 00:34:10.679
totally mature in this way really hurts them. child actors
652
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:12.579
in a myriad of different ways.
653
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:13.579
Right.
654
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:14.900
Okay.
655
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:16.880
So this is a journalist question. What were some of
656
00:34:16.900 --> 00:34:19.840
the challenges you faced when covering the Nickelodeon scandal? I
657
00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:23.170
guess in others, like how did you approach gathering and
658
00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:27.849
verifying sensitive information, especially when you're talking about something that
659
00:34:27.869 --> 00:34:29.090
has to do with sex?
660
00:34:29.969 --> 00:34:32.469
Yeah. I think that something that was difficult for this
661
00:34:32.570 --> 00:34:37.619
was unlike the Brandy Melville story, for example, In that story,
662
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.670
we had some concrete lawsuits with very concrete examples of discrimination.
663
00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.269
And the work seems like it had been done for
664
00:34:45.309 --> 00:34:46.329
you at the beginning there.
665
00:34:46.349 --> 00:34:48.829
It was something where you are building, you're kind of
666
00:34:48.889 --> 00:34:52.010
taking this concrete lawsuit and then building off of it
667
00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:56.139
with more stories and more context. In this one, there
668
00:34:56.260 --> 00:35:00.219
was a lawsuit, but it was filed by a John Doe.
669
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:04.070
So we knew that there was an instance of a well,
670
00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:06.090
more than one, but the one we focused in on
671
00:35:06.130 --> 00:35:10.269
was this child actor who was sexually abused by his
672
00:35:10.409 --> 00:35:14.940
acting coach, Brian Peck. And, but we didn't have the
673
00:35:14.980 --> 00:35:17.639
name of the child and we had heard rumors that
674
00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:20.360
it might be Drake Bell. And in that situation, you
675
00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:25.440
are kind of at a crossroads where you have heard
676
00:35:25.460 --> 00:35:28.079
that it might be this person. This is an incredibly
677
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:32.280
famous child actor. Where do you go from there? we
678
00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:36.190
would never expose a victim without their consent. We would
679
00:35:36.230 --> 00:35:38.570
never use Drake's name publicly if he didn't want to
680
00:35:38.590 --> 00:35:42.510
be involved. But this is something that we kind of
681
00:35:42.650 --> 00:35:45.829
were working through where we knew it would make the
682
00:35:45.849 --> 00:35:49.619
piece very powerful to have someone like Drake speaking, someone
683
00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:52.320
that so many people recognize from their childhood, someone that
684
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.159
they relate to Drake, they kind of feel like they
685
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:57.480
grew up with him. Him speaking about this would feel
686
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:00.079
very immediate for a lot of people. And even if
687
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.170
he wasn't famous, like, this story is so horrific in
688
00:36:04.210 --> 00:36:07.409
and of itself of someone being groomed and abused because
689
00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:13.059
of a culture that treated children like adults. So we
690
00:36:13.340 --> 00:36:15.820
knew that having Drake would be very important, but we
691
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.889
didn't know if Drake would want to participate. So he
692
00:36:20.010 --> 00:36:24.090
eventually did decide to participate and kind of building that
693
00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.030
relationship and building that trust. I have to say the
694
00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:29.989
directors were incredible in doing that. But that was a
695
00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:34.289
long process and something that for me up until pretty
696
00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:35.630
late in the game, I was like, I don't know
697
00:36:35.670 --> 00:36:37.550
if he'll want to be involved in this. Like, this
698
00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:41.219
is really, really hard to talk about publicly, not even
699
00:36:41.260 --> 00:36:44.760
being a public figure, even someone who is a completely
700
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.440
private individual, someone who has never been famous, asking anyone
701
00:36:48.500 --> 00:36:51.679
to go on camera and talk about the worst thing
702
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.860
or one of the worst things that has ever happened
703
00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:57.530
to them. That is a really difficult request to make. Oh, 100%.
704
00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:03.190
And listen, as someone, I did a HBO Max docuseries
705
00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:05.349
with Alex Gibney, and they are.
706
00:37:05.730 --> 00:37:09.309
Like what you hear? Tune into USL All Access live
707
00:37:09.389 --> 00:37:12.469
every Tuesday at 8 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM FC
708
00:37:12.510 --> 00:37:16.559
channel 188. for exclusive interviews and the latest from around
709
00:37:16.579 --> 00:37:20.820
the USL. The exclusive satellite radio home of the USL,
710
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:25.989
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712
00:37:30.489 --> 00:37:34.940
and more. All on Sirius XM FC channel 188 and
713
00:37:35.019 --> 00:37:36.340
the Sirius XM app.
714
00:37:37.190 --> 00:37:40.159
Very, very good. I mean, listen, I don't think it's
715
00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:42.840
someone who they want you to narrate what happened. Otherwise,
716
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.320
they're going to tell the story anyway. So I think
717
00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:47.840
for me, it was kind of like I saw the
718
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:52.280
credibility of who was making the story. And ultimately I
719
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:54.539
ended up trusting them. I spent so much time with
720
00:37:54.579 --> 00:37:55.880
them and I knew that they were going to tell
721
00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:58.260
the story in a way that, that they would do
722
00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:00.780
their best to shed light on what happened, but it
723
00:38:00.929 --> 00:38:03.590
would come best from me. So ultimately that's why I
724
00:38:03.730 --> 00:38:06.789
chose to do it. You know, and people like also
725
00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.210
in those situations, like you're not doing it. There was
726
00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:12.320
no money exchange. Like you are at that point where
727
00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:14.340
you want to tell your story because you need to
728
00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:18.210
for your own freedom. you know, for your own, like
729
00:38:18.230 --> 00:38:20.309
to be able to sleep at night better. So I,
730
00:38:20.449 --> 00:38:22.429
you know, I can't speak for him. I can speak
731
00:38:22.469 --> 00:38:25.670
for me. I was in, you know, circumstances were different,
732
00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:28.030
but just in working with those guys at HBO and
733
00:38:28.070 --> 00:38:30.630
they're very, very good. And they lived up to everything
734
00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:32.590
they said they would, you know, they, I trusted them
735
00:38:32.650 --> 00:38:35.630
and they, they were great with everything they did. So
736
00:38:36.150 --> 00:38:39.750
I get that. I wanted to ask, oh, okay. So
737
00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:42.179
now after the fact we asked about Brandy Melville, did
738
00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:45.460
you see any changes to Nickelodeon? Like what has happened
739
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:46.480
with that company since?
740
00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:49.320
I think this has been something where we have been
741
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.460
able to see a lot more movement for change. We've
742
00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:58.820
been in contact with the unions and with even governments
743
00:38:59.019 --> 00:39:01.599
on talking about what laws need to be passed. What
744
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.880
do unions need to be pushing for here? This is
745
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:07.400
something that I do think, for Nickelodeon specifically, they had
746
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.139
made some of the changes since this happened that would
747
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:15.840
hopefully prevent child predators from working at somewhere like Nickelodeon.
748
00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:21.239
But I think that's something that I'm really revved up
749
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.699
about and care a lot about is making sure this
750
00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:27.110
doesn't happen again, not just at Nickelodeon, but in all
751
00:39:27.170 --> 00:39:29.949
forms of children entertainment. So now you have things like
752
00:39:30.050 --> 00:39:34.829
child influencers, where that is something where it is so
753
00:39:34.889 --> 00:39:38.050
much more nebulous and so much more uncertain. And you
754
00:39:38.090 --> 00:39:40.239
don't have a big network that can make rules. So
755
00:39:41.070 --> 00:39:43.679
how do we turn to the government or to different
756
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:48.420
organizations and continue thinking about what changes can be made
757
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:50.739
either in terms of laws or just okay, how do
758
00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:53.019
we give people basic advice on how to do this
759
00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:56.630
to avoid putting kids in situations? How do we educate
760
00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:00.230
children on what grooming looks like? And I think that
761
00:40:00.369 --> 00:40:04.230
that's something that just talking about it can create a
762
00:40:04.309 --> 00:40:07.360
really positive change in a direction that can protect kids.
763
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:10.820
Yeah. And I think it's such a fine line because
764
00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:14.090
you know, there are kids, like you're talking about these
765
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:16.940
influencers who do not look like kids. I mean, you know,
766
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:19.860
teenagers do not look like teenagers from, from when I
767
00:40:19.900 --> 00:40:24.340
was a teenager. Okay. Sometimes you look at someone who's 14, 15, 16,
768
00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:28.389
and you think that they're in their twenties, early thirties,
769
00:40:28.469 --> 00:40:32.010
they're dressing sexy because this is what sells. And And
770
00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:34.730
they're okay with that too. But that doesn't mean that
771
00:40:34.750 --> 00:40:37.639
they're adult yet in their thinking. So I think there's
772
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:40.119
a lot of lines that get blurred. I think also
773
00:40:40.579 --> 00:40:43.969
as the person that's coming up as the creator, the entertainer,
774
00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:47.019
sometimes they think that it's not about just like, oh,
775
00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.599
I need to, you know, give away sexual favors to
776
00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:52.460
get this, but it's more like, I want to be
777
00:40:52.500 --> 00:40:55.469
an adult. People are really racing to be an adult now,
778
00:40:55.550 --> 00:40:58.210
to be famous, to be, you know, and so they
779
00:40:58.230 --> 00:40:59.909
think that goes along with it. And I think some
780
00:40:59.949 --> 00:41:03.510
of it is about them stepping into that adulthood way
781
00:41:03.550 --> 00:41:06.809
before they should, and they don't even see it as bad.
782
00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:09.179
It's something that I think that that was the mindset
783
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.059
for a lot of these child actors. And it's almost
784
00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:13.539
like that mindset has gone from being something that kids
785
00:41:13.579 --> 00:41:17.010
have in Hollywood that kids have all over the United
786
00:41:17.110 --> 00:41:21.210
States because of social media. So it's something where there
787
00:41:21.250 --> 00:41:24.250
have to be wider things versus just Disney or Nickelodeon
788
00:41:24.289 --> 00:41:25.170
making some changes.
789
00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:27.719
Oh yeah, for sure. So I wanted to ask you
790
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.300
about social media now that we're talking about it. It's
791
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:34.789
played a huge role in making things popular from food
792
00:41:34.829 --> 00:41:38.190
to clothing, everything like that, certain trends. And when I
793
00:41:38.230 --> 00:41:40.489
was younger, it was like, you saw a commercial for
794
00:41:40.530 --> 00:41:43.030
something and that's what made it cool. You know, like
795
00:41:43.969 --> 00:41:46.880
you would drink Coke, you would drink, you know, whatever
796
00:41:46.889 --> 00:41:49.260
it was, you would chew Bubblicious. I don't know. You
797
00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:52.239
would get the Cabbage Patch Kid because that's what everyone
798
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.260
was buying. And if you didn't get it, you were
799
00:41:54.340 --> 00:41:59.119
the loser. You know, now it's totally different and everything
800
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.789
is made popular on social media. And it takes sometimes a...
801
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:07.690
influencer to make that popular. So I want to ask you,
802
00:42:07.949 --> 00:42:11.429
what are the trends that you're seeing within that? Do
803
00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:15.730
you still think that influencers make a big deal and
804
00:42:15.869 --> 00:42:18.360
create these trends? Do you think that's going away? Do
805
00:42:18.469 --> 00:42:21.840
you think it's dangerous? Do you think it's good for brands?
806
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:23.920
What are your thoughts on it as somebody who covers this?
807
00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:27.239
Totally. I think that it is so huge right now.
808
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:31.079
And I think that how influencers and where influencers are
809
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:35.280
really gaining this dominance is super interesting. I mean, looking
810
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:40.289
at Brandy Melville, that was peak Tumblr and Instagram. And
811
00:42:40.349 --> 00:42:42.929
that's why the brand really took off is because it
812
00:42:42.969 --> 00:42:47.289
was able to find the way inside of these social
813
00:42:47.329 --> 00:42:49.849
media algorithms. I think because they relied so much on
814
00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:52.460
teenage girls that it took off in a way that
815
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.579
felt super organic. I'm not sure what is going to
816
00:42:57.619 --> 00:43:00.420
come next year. I think that TikTok right now is
817
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:04.360
to me, the biggest driving force on social media in
818
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:10.159
terms of setting trends, kind of reaching this massive audience.
819
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.440
Probably TikTok and Instagram are setting those, but I'm not
820
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.179
sure what comes next. I think that it's, well, I
821
00:43:19.219 --> 00:43:21.190
can actually speak about the business school take on this.
822
00:43:21.329 --> 00:43:26.050
I was in class recently where we were discussing social
823
00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:30.159
media and we voted like how many of you would
824
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:33.780
be happier if Instagram didn't exist? And it was pretty
825
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:37.469
much a 50-50 split. I like Instagram. I was fine
826
00:43:37.510 --> 00:43:40.489
with Instagram existing, but for the half of the class
827
00:43:40.510 --> 00:43:44.179
who said they'd rather have Instagram not exist, the question
828
00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:47.059
was how many of you have Instagram? And the majority
829
00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:49.300
still have Instagram, even though they wish it didn't exist
830
00:43:49.579 --> 00:43:50.280
as a whole.
831
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:52.360
Did they wish it didn't exist because they couldn't figure
832
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:52.679
it out?
833
00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:55.260
No, it was just they wish it didn't exist because
834
00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:57.739
it made them feel bad. It made them, it sucked
835
00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.559
up a lot of time. It made them feel badly
836
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:04.260
about themselves. I mean, I understand those critiques, but I
837
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.510
like Instagram because I'm nosy and it's helpful for reporting.
838
00:44:08.949 --> 00:44:12.690
But these people said basically the reason why they're still
839
00:44:12.809 --> 00:44:14.570
on it, even though they don't enjoy how it makes
840
00:44:14.590 --> 00:44:16.650
them feel or how much time it takes up is
841
00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:19.690
this fear of missing out. And I think that that's
842
00:44:19.809 --> 00:44:23.250
kind of become the most dominant idea around social media
843
00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:26.150
now is like this feeling that if I'm not there,
844
00:44:26.289 --> 00:44:29.050
everyone is like hanging out without me. And I think
845
00:44:29.289 --> 00:44:31.889
back when I was in high school, that was something
846
00:44:31.909 --> 00:44:33.949
that was pretty literal where it was like, oh, people
847
00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:36.389
are in person hanging out without me. But now I
848
00:44:36.429 --> 00:44:40.070
think that it becomes very digital where There is you
849
00:44:40.110 --> 00:44:43.369
can see when people are physically hanging out without you online,
850
00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:45.949
but also you feel like you have to be totally
851
00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:49.030
tapped in at all times or you could miss out
852
00:44:49.090 --> 00:44:52.250
on something. So I think that that's one of the
853
00:44:52.829 --> 00:44:56.389
media that is interesting to kind of grapple with. And
854
00:44:56.789 --> 00:44:58.269
I don't know the easy solution there.
855
00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:01.079
And not only that, it's like, what are you missing
856
00:45:01.219 --> 00:45:04.389
out on by not buying it? So at least a
857
00:45:04.429 --> 00:45:06.349
couple of times a week, I will get a package
858
00:45:06.789 --> 00:45:08.630
and my daughter will run past me and grab it.
859
00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:10.530
And I'll be like, what is that? And she's like, oh,
860
00:45:10.590 --> 00:45:13.929
it's from TikTok shop or whatever, or this, oh mom,
861
00:45:13.989 --> 00:45:16.230
it's a trend on TikTok. Everybody's doing it, which like
862
00:45:16.309 --> 00:45:18.170
makes it okay that all of a sudden my money's
863
00:45:18.210 --> 00:45:21.280
gone because she spent it all on some crazy thing
864
00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:23.420
that breaks in two seconds and they have to make
865
00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.139
a TikTok about it. It's like insane, but it is
866
00:45:26.219 --> 00:45:29.699
what they all do and follow. And- you know, for
867
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.019
me as a parent, I'm like, oh, okay. She's finding
868
00:45:32.059 --> 00:45:34.619
things to do. She's an only kid. It makes her
869
00:45:34.659 --> 00:45:36.579
feel like she's part of a community, I guess. And
870
00:45:36.699 --> 00:45:38.739
all of her friends are doing it. And they're all
871
00:45:39.179 --> 00:45:42.639
on FaceTime getting excited about it and opening it, you know?
872
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:45.760
And it's something where it's like, that's not that different
873
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:48.320
in some ways than us growing up. Like there'd always
874
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.159
be like some fad where it's like, oh, I need
875
00:45:50.219 --> 00:45:52.639
a beanie baby. I need this. But I think it
876
00:45:52.659 --> 00:45:56.389
just feels so much more overwhelming now because it's like, oh, okay.
877
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.780
who are you hanging out with? But also like, are
878
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.679
you up on what to buy? Are you like doing
879
00:46:01.699 --> 00:46:04.139
this as quickly as possible? And it feels like the
880
00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:06.960
trends go so quickly. I mean, some of this, I
881
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.360
feel like just makes me sound old, but I do
882
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:11.630
think that there's a level of anxiety that's built in
883
00:46:11.690 --> 00:46:16.530
on social media around belonging that wasn't quite all encompassing
884
00:46:16.550 --> 00:46:19.789
in prior decades. And I think that that can be
885
00:46:19.829 --> 00:46:20.530
pretty harmful.
886
00:46:21.050 --> 00:46:23.650
Yeah, I do agree with that. Okay, as a journalist
887
00:46:23.690 --> 00:46:26.789
covering the, well, I was going to frame this as
888
00:46:26.809 --> 00:46:30.449
the food industry, but I guess in any industry, what
889
00:46:30.809 --> 00:46:34.309
do you think has been the most surprising or underreported
890
00:46:34.469 --> 00:46:36.769
story that you've ever come across? And why do you
891
00:46:36.809 --> 00:46:38.469
think it hasn't got the attention it deserved?
892
00:46:38.949 --> 00:46:41.889
Oh, that is such a good question. Let me think.
893
00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:44.630
A story, this is something I want to write more
894
00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:46.349
about that I touched on a little bit earlier. I
895
00:46:46.409 --> 00:46:50.030
want to write more about child influencers and the impact
896
00:46:50.070 --> 00:46:52.610
of that and the long-term impact of that. So if
897
00:46:52.670 --> 00:46:55.219
anyone watching this has thoughts, please reach out because I
898
00:46:55.260 --> 00:47:00.039
think that that is something that it's been reported on,
899
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:02.699
but there's going to be more and more stories on
900
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.179
what growing up as a child influencer or just growing
901
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.420
up in general on social media does to someone. And
902
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.440
I think it's not underreported because of people ignoring it.
903
00:47:12.929 --> 00:47:15.369
It's underreported just because all of these things are so new.
904
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:18.320
And I have a question. What do they do with
905
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:21.170
their lives after? I mean, once they, if they've started
906
00:47:21.230 --> 00:47:23.250
young and then they get into their twenties, unless they
907
00:47:23.329 --> 00:47:25.369
elevate that to something else, like how do you turn
908
00:47:25.389 --> 00:47:28.190
that into a real job later in life? And not
909
00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:31.199
only that, I'm wondering if some of these people's whole
910
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:34.320
livelihoods are based on complete fake numbers. You know, you
911
00:47:34.340 --> 00:47:37.000
can buy followers, you can buy all sorts of things.
912
00:47:37.340 --> 00:47:40.360
Then you get random people behind you that build you up.
913
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:43.539
But does that house of cards fall at some point?
914
00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:47.199
And then you have absolutely no skills. later on in life.
915
00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:48.900
And it's not even too deep into life. You're in
916
00:47:48.940 --> 00:47:51.260
your late 20s. And then it's like you really lived
917
00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.389
a fake life. So that's my question for when you're
918
00:47:54.429 --> 00:47:55.010
recording it.
919
00:47:55.409 --> 00:47:58.250
I mean, we've seen so much with how media publications
920
00:47:58.269 --> 00:48:00.849
kind of like pivot because they're like, oh, we're getting
921
00:48:00.889 --> 00:48:02.969
all these views this way or like, oh, we're getting
922
00:48:02.989 --> 00:48:05.590
all this traffic from this social media. And then something
923
00:48:05.650 --> 00:48:09.610
changes and then that just falls apart. Like that's hard
924
00:48:09.630 --> 00:48:11.789
when it's a media publication. It often leads to layoffs.
925
00:48:11.849 --> 00:48:15.760
But when it's one person's entire livelihood, like I don't
926
00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:17.119
know what you do from there. And I think that
927
00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:20.579
that is something that is going to continue to play
928
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:22.699
out for more and more people as being an influencer
929
00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.710
is seen as a career that people are trying to win.
930
00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:28.250
And also what happens when they've lived a life like
931
00:48:28.929 --> 00:48:32.269
Alex Earl, for example, or something like that. And then
932
00:48:32.289 --> 00:48:35.429
they say something to get canceled. Well, what skills do
933
00:48:35.449 --> 00:48:38.250
they have to translate this into anything else as well?
934
00:48:38.449 --> 00:48:42.579
And were they educated enough not to say the things
935
00:48:42.619 --> 00:48:45.420
they said, or did they say them because- they're an asshole.
936
00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:47.820
You know, like I don't know what kind of credentials
937
00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:50.880
they had to do their get readies with me and
938
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:53.510
put on cute clothes that people send them for free.
939
00:48:53.570 --> 00:48:55.130
I mean, how does that make you a smart person?
940
00:48:55.170 --> 00:48:57.550
You're saying dumb things probably because you haven't been educated
941
00:48:57.610 --> 00:49:00.730
and lived a life filled with experiences to know what
942
00:49:00.789 --> 00:49:03.050
to say and not to say, you know what I mean?
943
00:49:03.070 --> 00:49:04.789
So that's another question I have.
944
00:49:04.809 --> 00:49:07.269
It is very similar to like the nineties child stars,
945
00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:10.070
I think where it's, these people would kind of be
946
00:49:10.090 --> 00:49:12.210
in their mid twenties and it'd be harder to get
947
00:49:12.269 --> 00:49:15.389
roles because the casting directors are like, oh, like you're
948
00:49:15.429 --> 00:49:17.389
too known for being a former child star. Like it's
949
00:49:17.429 --> 00:49:19.650
not a good fit. But then they're like, I haven't gone.
950
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:23.920
to college. I made money, but not that much money
951
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:27.219
when you're living off of it every day. And I
952
00:49:27.579 --> 00:49:29.860
don't have a marketable skill now. So like, what do
953
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.239
I do? Where do I go from here? And I think, yeah,
954
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:33.889
I think that a lot of influencers are going to
955
00:49:33.929 --> 00:49:35.489
face the same questions.
956
00:49:35.789 --> 00:49:38.130
And by the way, that's in any... Any industry. I
957
00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:41.650
speak to athletes all the time who were stars in
958
00:49:41.670 --> 00:49:44.929
their field and then they retire or they're sidelined because
959
00:49:44.969 --> 00:49:47.570
of an injury and they literally don't know what to
960
00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:50.199
do with their lives and they all become alcoholics or
961
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.860
whatever because they really don't know what to do. It's
962
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.760
actually a terrible thing. And it shows you how important
963
00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:58.179
education is when you're a kid. I mean, you know,
964
00:49:58.219 --> 00:50:01.239
just having a... a foundation of something so you can
965
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:03.989
have other things going on. And that's why people pivot into,
966
00:50:04.010 --> 00:50:06.349
I don't know, you see real estate agents who were
967
00:50:06.389 --> 00:50:10.849
reality stars or A-list actors, you know, driving Uber cars
968
00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:13.079
at some point because they just, they don't know how
969
00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:15.519
to pivot and it's all gone sideways for them because
970
00:50:15.539 --> 00:50:18.059
they've been left in the dust in whatever way, shape
971
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:18.380
or form.
972
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:20.179
Um, okay.
973
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:22.489
And then my last question for you, I want to know,
974
00:50:22.619 --> 00:50:24.909
and again, I know you're on hiatus right now from working,
975
00:50:25.349 --> 00:50:27.329
but there are so many stories in the news right now.
976
00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:29.429
You must be freaking out that you're like not able
977
00:50:29.469 --> 00:50:33.289
to be writing all the time and pitching stories. What
978
00:50:33.329 --> 00:50:35.989
are the current things that you're following? Oh, and by
979
00:50:36.030 --> 00:50:37.710
the way, before you answer that you're in New York
980
00:50:37.730 --> 00:50:39.530
right now, what do you think, or what does everybody
981
00:50:39.550 --> 00:50:41.849
at Columbia think about Eric Adams being in guidance?
982
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:44.880
My phone has been lighting up for this entire call
983
00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:46.659
and I have not looked at my text. So I
984
00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:51.820
will see. I mean, the Eric Adams indictment is truly like,
985
00:50:51.989 --> 00:50:54.489
that is a fascinating story. And I'm sure there's going
986
00:50:54.510 --> 00:50:57.170
to be fascinating reporting coming out here. Cause we just
987
00:50:57.210 --> 00:51:00.949
have all the elements of a true high drama. I mean,
988
00:51:00.989 --> 00:51:02.150
you've got the.
989
00:51:02.230 --> 00:51:04.469
You have him already coming out and saying that he's
990
00:51:04.590 --> 00:51:08.829
innocent and that it was all fabricated and it's going
991
00:51:08.889 --> 00:51:10.210
to be interesting.
992
00:51:10.250 --> 00:51:11.489
It's going to be an interesting time. So, I mean,
993
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:14.500
I'm very excited to be reading all about that story.
994
00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:16.420
And I'm a little bit sad that I can't be
995
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:17.719
reporting on it myself.
996
00:51:17.780 --> 00:51:19.769
And it'll be interesting to see if somebody has to
997
00:51:19.829 --> 00:51:22.429
step in, if Cuomo is going to come back, the
998
00:51:22.489 --> 00:51:26.130
beloved Cuomo who everybody canceled. And now will he be
999
00:51:26.190 --> 00:51:27.710
mayor again? I mean, will he be mayor?
1000
00:51:27.730 --> 00:51:31.219
It's going to be out of control, I think. I'm
1001
00:51:31.420 --> 00:51:34.400
really curious. And I mean, I hope, and this is
1002
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.989
always my hope in general, I'm like, I hope that
1003
00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:40.789
this is an opportunity to have new, fresh voices with
1004
00:51:40.829 --> 00:51:45.809
really innovative new ideas emerge. We'll see if that ever happens,
1005
00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:49.409
but who can say? And I think that things that
1006
00:51:49.489 --> 00:51:52.159
I'm thinking about for stories, I mean, one of the
1007
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.300
stories I wrote at BI that was a little bit
1008
00:51:55.340 --> 00:52:00.300
more low-key or niche was about residential cruise companies, basically
1009
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.119
people moving to live on cruise ships for the rest
1010
00:52:03.159 --> 00:52:05.980
of their lives. it's a space that's filled with a
1011
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:09.940
lot of kind of scammers and it's just also incredibly
1012
00:52:09.980 --> 00:52:13.909
impossible to make happen because making a cruise ship, something
1013
00:52:13.949 --> 00:52:17.550
people can live on permanently is very, very hard. I'm
1014
00:52:17.769 --> 00:52:20.949
looking into that more. I think that there's some interesting
1015
00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:24.489
stories there. I'm interested in.
1016
00:52:24.510 --> 00:52:29.099
I know someone who is selling that. So we'll have
1017
00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:31.260
to talk because when he said that to me, I
1018
00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:33.059
was like, that is such a dumb idea. I don't
1019
00:52:33.099 --> 00:52:33.440
get that.
1020
00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:36.789
There's a huge market for it, but it's incredibly hard
1021
00:52:36.809 --> 00:52:39.289
to make work. I think there's a lot of interesting
1022
00:52:39.329 --> 00:52:43.460
things happening in brew industry right now that I'm curious about.
1023
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:47.860
And then I also, this is something super general, but
1024
00:52:48.380 --> 00:52:51.400
I've been wanting to write more about family businesses. That's
1025
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:53.360
something that being in business school has made me think
1026
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:56.139
a lot about and kind of the inherent difficulties of
1027
00:52:56.280 --> 00:53:01.559
working with your family. So I'm kind of poking around
1028
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:03.199
on some family business stories as well.
1029
00:53:03.820 --> 00:53:05.730
You should look into, and he's a friend of mine.
1030
00:53:05.769 --> 00:53:07.809
I can set you up with him, but Alan Rosen,
1031
00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:12.099
he owns Junior's Cheesecake. And it was family owned. And
1032
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.039
I think he had to buy out his brother. There
1033
00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:16.750
was all sorts of infighting and he now owns it.
1034
00:53:17.179 --> 00:53:19.739
He was thinking of running for mayor of New York recently.
1035
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.550
Good guy. But like he had a lot of stories
1036
00:53:22.610 --> 00:53:25.170
about running it with his family. So but yeah, I
1037
00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:28.050
think that's fascinating. And there are obviously bigger stories and
1038
00:53:28.090 --> 00:53:31.639
there are smaller stories. But the stuff that goes on
1039
00:53:31.659 --> 00:53:35.400
between a family is definitely there's a lot of drama
1040
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:36.170
to it. Yes.
1041
00:53:36.369 --> 00:53:38.889
It's just, it's, it's hard working with family on like
1042
00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:41.929
the smallest of ideas. So the biggest ideas I feel
1043
00:53:41.949 --> 00:53:44.750
like can be so weighty. Well, it was so lovely
1044
00:53:44.809 --> 00:53:45.409
talking with you.
1045
00:53:45.429 --> 00:53:47.250
It was so lovely talking to you. I wish you
1046
00:53:47.269 --> 00:53:49.050
good luck at Columbia. I can't wait to see the
1047
00:53:49.090 --> 00:53:51.639
next story that you come out with and we will
1048
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:54.300
have you on again next time you publish something big
1049
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:56.059
and get to the bottom of it. Cause I'd love
1050
00:53:56.099 --> 00:53:57.760
to hear about it. I wish you the best of luck.
1051
00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:00.380
Tell people where they can find you and look up
1052
00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:01.889
some of your stories if they want to.
1053
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:06.599
Yes, I'm on Twitter at Kate underscore H underscore Taylor.
1054
00:54:06.659 --> 00:54:10.849
You can look at my website, KateHTaylor.com. And those are
1055
00:54:10.869 --> 00:54:13.829
probably the best ways to find me. But it was
1056
00:54:13.929 --> 00:54:15.849
great talking with you about all of this.
1057
00:54:16.309 --> 00:54:18.239
Yes, I appreciate you and we will be in touch.
1058
00:54:27.170 --> 00:54:30.130
Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
1059
00:54:30.170 --> 00:54:32.989
Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
1060
00:54:33.110 --> 00:54:35.489
and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
1061
00:54:35.530 --> 00:54:39.840
support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
1062
00:54:40.030 --> 00:54:42.960
misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
1063
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.059
show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
1064
00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:52.820
at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
1065
00:54:52.860 --> 00:54:53.780
and I'll see you next time.
1066
00:54:58.250 --> 00:55:01.329
Don't miss a minute of United Soccer League action. The
1067
00:55:01.429 --> 00:55:05.599
USL Championship and USL League One are on CBS Sports
1068
00:55:05.659 --> 00:55:10.219
and ESPN platforms all season long. With additional coverage on
1069
00:55:10.300 --> 00:55:15.150
Sirius XMFC Channel 188 and select matches available in Spanish
1070
00:55:15.550 --> 00:55:19.190
on 2DNA. It's your time to take part in building
1071
00:55:19.349 --> 00:55:27.309
what's next. Visit uslchampionship.com or uslleague1. com for complete listings. Find
1072
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your local club and be part of what's next.