Lead Generation for Creatives: What Actually Works? (Part 1) | Ep 12

MrBenBurns: we got a good one for you today, because Steph showed up with a cocktail shaker, and inside of it, there were 15 ways to get clients. And she didn't tell me a single one ahead of time. Welcome to the Maker Division podcast. My name is Ben Burns. I'm a designer and entrepreneur, and I help creatives make a living doing what they love. And I'm here with Stephanie Owens, lettering artist, brand designer, and my co-founder at Maker Division, where we teach creatives how to start and scale their creative practice. Look. A lot of creatives we talk to say that business has slowed way down. And when we ask how they're marketing their business, the answer is usually they're not. So we're pulling out the lead generation methods out of the shaker one at a time and rating each one from one to five. One means never ever do this. And five means it's the very best way to get leads, period. And we only score what's worked for us or the people that we know personally. Now, today we get through six LinkedIn, local meetups, where we landed about as far apart as two people can. Walk-ins, including a member who bought a $16 cake to an ad agency and turned it into a five-figure project. Online marketplaces like Upwork and Fiverr conferences and referrals, which Steph says doesn't count as lead generation. That one got a little spicy. I'm I'm I'm excited for that. Then we close out with which one of these we'll be using for our studio. Now, if you want more on this before part two, Steph's next issue of the dispatch, which is our weekly newsletter, is all about lead gen. So you gotta sign up at makerdivision.com forward slash the dispatch. So it lands in your inbox. And it's a brand new site. Go check it out. Makerdivision.com. I'm super, super proud of it. We did a fantastic job. So go go check it out. All right, let's see what's in. The shaker.
Stephanie: you don't know what we're talking about today.
MrBenBurns: No, but I have cards.
Stephanie: I have cards too, so I know that I've been keeping this a secret from you, but I thought that since you know you and I and my husband Nathan are starting our own studio and we'll be working on lead generation, but also so many creatives that I know and that we've talked to both. That you've talked to and that I've talked to, business has slowed down quite a bit. And most of the time when I talk to them and I ask, like, how are you marketing your business? They're not. And that is what happens when you don't market your business, business slows down. So and we've also been talking quite a bit about the Solo Studio and all of these other income streams, but I don't want to kind of stop talking about client acquisition and how you can still have a business around client services. You just need to generate leads. So in my little cocktail shaker, I have 15 ways to generate leads. And I thought, you know, that maybe this will be a multi-part because I know you and I like to talk. And I think going through 15, this will be the longest podcast in all of history. So I thought maybe we could do a multi-part. We could pull out five today and we can rank them in terms of one. No, never. I would never want to do that. That's a horrible way to generate leads. One is bad. And if you're if
MrBenBurns: Okay, so one is bad, right? Okay, that's I got the pirate.
Stephanie: yeah, you got a pirate. you used your people from your circle. That's awesome. If you're not watching this on YouTube, we will tell you what numbers we pull. And then five is like. That is the best freaking way to generate leads. All right.
MrBenBurns: Yes.
Stephanie: And I I have a feeling there's gonna be some where you and I disagree. But I I I think it would just be nice to shine a light on You know, all the different ways, like fifteen ways in my cocktail shaker right here to get leads. And some of these I don't like, and some of them Ben I know he does not like, and some of them I don't I don't some of them I don't know how you feel around them. And we'll also call out if it's something that we specifically teach inside of Maker Division. All right, you ready?
MrBenBurns: Yeah, how many people are just like wanting to crawl inside that shaker right now? I bet you everybody's like, What are what are they? You have to watch. You have you gotta you gotta watch to find out.
Stephanie: You wanna cry? What are they? I mean, also look at how you see how cool this shaker is, man. This is my venom barfly shaker. All right, looking on my shaking skills. What do we have up first? Up first is let's see. LinkedIn.
MrBenBurns: Okay, so are
Stephanie: LinkedIn.
MrBenBurns: we are we rating on our experience with this? Are we rating on
Stephanie: Yeah, let's let's I think it should be our experience with it or what we've seen others be able to accomplish with it. Yes, verified experience.
MrBenBurns: Like verified of experience of okay.
Stephanie: It's either our own experience or a verified, we actually know this person and we know it's working for them and we can dissect why it's working for them. but
MrBenBurns: Okay.
Stephanie: so there's a mixture of both like platforms and tech like actual tactics. So this one would be a platform.
MrBenBurns: Got it.
Stephanie: And you can do a lot of things on LinkedIn. You can network on LinkedIn, you can post on LinkedIn. So it's ever all things LinkedIn. Are you ready?
MrBenBurns: Yes.
Stephanie: Wha are you ready to show one, two, three? What what'd you put? That's your face. we both said three.
MrBenBurns: Three
Stephanie: Do you have it like how do you feel in general about LinkedIn?
MrBenBurns: Okay. I think that LinkedIn is great for some people and terrible for others. Because in my personal experience, I've only used LinkedIn for research and to like meaningfully connect with somebody over a direct message. So it's like that's it. In our network, though, I know personally many people who have found clients from posting their work in LinkedIn, like sharing their case studies and posting the creative things that they're doing. And I've also known a ton of people that have wasted a lot of time with more of the thought leadership stuff, which doesn't really connect for client acquisition, for lead generation of clients. So that's why it's like it's right in the middle for me, because it really depends on who you are and and what you do. And it's really just for me, it's a gamble. How about you?
Stephanie: I'm a three for the same reasons, but I feel like you need to really know who you're talking to as well. And I think a
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: really the the example that I love, and the he is the reason why it's a three and not a two or a one for me, is our member Stefan Peterson, who is just killing it on LinkedIn. And I think there's a couple of things that are going In his favor on LinkedIn. One, he has a cause that he really cares about, and that is what he creates art around. And I would say he's moving into a niche of environmental conservationism and it specifically a lot around the ocean, correct?
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: So I think that because he really knows who he's talking to. And the niche has sort of found him. We talked about that on our niching episode a while back, where his work is very rooted in what other people on the platform care about. And he's fine, he's building this network on LinkedIn around that industry and around that world. And he's also sharing his work. He is sharing his work all the time. And the right people are noticing the work, and that he really cares about, you know, ocean conservation. And
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: I think that's why he's doing so well. We're talking landing multi-five-figure projects, sending out proposals for six-figure projects. He's doing incredibly well. But like you said, the thought leadership stuff, I don't think that's resonating with clients. I also don't know if just showing up. and posting your work without any kind of point of view like Stefan has is working from for a whole lot of people. What have you found that people just posting work without a point of view is getting them work?
MrBenBurns: Yeah, Daniel Pohl, another alumni,
Stephanie: that's right.
MrBenBurns: he he shares a lot of work on LinkedIn and that's kind of how he's
Stephanie: Packaging.
MrBenBurns: yeah, packaging work. It's hyper visual stuff. He also does like pretty detailed studies of why something works. And I think
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: that that's really cool because not only does that demonstrate your expertise, but it also like teaches people how to see your work. And I'm
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: like, that's that's great. So he's he's getting clients like that from LinkedIn.
Stephanie: Yeah, I think that that it sort of works. It's not really his point of view like Stefan, but it's like it's his thing. He has a thing that he talks about on LinkedIn.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: He's a packaging designer who also does these in-depth studies of why packaging, various packaging designs work and they don't work. He has a thing
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: where I go on LinkedIn and a lot of the things I see on LinkedIn are shit-talking AI. Posting of AI slop and talking about why it's bad. Also, let's have our thoughts on the Cracker Barrel rebrand, or this brand, or this rebrand. It's like it's just it's it's just a dog
MrBenBurns: The dog pile, the designer dog pile.
Stephanie: pile of hot takes. Or it's like shit talking clients. Guys, nobody's gonna hire you if you're constantly shit talking clients. So that kind of stuff. I just don't see where like I wouldn't want to work with you if you're just always so negative all the time or you're just posting
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: someone else's thing and be like, I agree with this. Like, have an original thought or maybe show your own work and have a point of view or have a thing that you are known for on LinkedIn. But I also think that problem solvers can do well on LinkedIn if you're like more of the problem solving camp. But not just thought leadership around it. It's more like the Daniel Pohl way of doing things where it's, you know, he's a problem solver around packaging design. There's a lot of problems to solve there. And he's just leaned into that and he's doing very well.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: So I I give it a three because I don't think it's a total waste of time. it's not lower than a three, but it's not higher than a three because I think it has to be the right fit. This is like a Cinderella
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: s it's a Cinderella slipper type platform where it's just like me personally, it wouldn't work for me.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. I think I could make it work. I just I just find
Stephanie: I think you could make it work too.
MrBenBurns: other ways better. Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah, for for me personally, I just I just don't like at least my algorithm is gross. Maybe other people's
MrBenBurns: yeah. There's
Stephanie: algorithms are a lot better because I also just don't post on LinkedIn. So I get a lot of yeah, I get a I get a lot of the design world. And I feel like they're
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: all just talking to each other. Where it's like you
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: have to you have to talk to the person that would be hiring you. And if you don't know who that is, it's gonna be very difficult on LinkedIn.
MrBenBurns: Exactly. That's why Stefan is working out because he has he has not only personal experience in that industry, he's also got tons of experience working in that industry. So he knows what they're trying to accomplish and all that kind of stuff.
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: I do think that LinkedIn has an advantage over nearly any other social platform though, in that people are there typically for professional reasons. I think it's really, really difficult using other platforms because they don't have that like professional layer
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: on top of whatever they're doing. Cause like, I mean, let's be honest. When you're scrolling through LinkedIn, you're really not being productive. So I don't think anybody's hardcore
Stephanie: No, but this is one thing
MrBenBurns: working on LinkedIn, but they're there for professional reasons.
Stephanie: I do want to disagree with you on one point. I think that
MrBenBurns: You go for it.
Stephanie: I think that at least on my algorithm, this is where like your algorithm could look very different than mine. I think some people treat LinkedIn like their Instagram stories. Where I'm like, I don't
MrBenBurns: interesting.
Stephanie: wanna see a weird selfie of you and have you turning that into a business. It's like they're trying to merge like disposable content, like an Instagram story. with a business lesson. And I don't understand it. And I'm it's like well where it could be appropriate in an Instagram story. Like I share on Instagram stories quite often. It's like, okay, so you you took your dog for a walk, but w w and we're turning this into a business lesson. It's like you just felt like you had to make something that day. You're just like, I need to make I just need to post something. This is why it's the
MrBenBurns: What my morning coffee taught me about B to B sales like
Stephanie: But it's just sort of like, let's, let's, no, it's, you know, I I think that's where it's like, yes, people are there. It is the business and professional platform, but I don't think everyone really treats it as professional air quotes, as
MrBenBurns: I I agree with you on the content creation side. I don't think
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: anybody is there for fun
Stephanie: No, no.
MrBenBurns: scrolling through at the night. So, like, as somebody who might, you know, create case studies and share them on LinkedIn, I'm pretty confident that I'm not gonna like catch somebody at like 10 PM just kind of like scrolling LinkedIn for the dopamine hit. There are other better platforms for that. You know what I mean? Like, and if you are,
Stephanie: Yes.
MrBenBurns: get help. No
Stephanie: I was gonna say, God bless.
MrBenBurns: Ha ha ha.
Stephanie: Alright, so that's why it's a three. So I would say if you need leads, LinkedIn could be good for you if you have a thing or a point of view and you know exactly who you're talking to and you're showing work and you're diving deep into the needs of exactly who you're talking to. But please, for the love of all things, holy, don't go on LinkedIn talking about how branding is different than marketing or how your brand isn't a logo, and I still see that stuff, and I'm like That's we n we all know.
MrBenBurns: Yep.
Stephanie: All right. Any final thoughts on LinkedIn before we move on to the next platform? Or or or tactic Okay. Okay.
MrBenBurns: No, next. This is great. This is really fun.
Stephanie: Cool. Thought it mixed it up. All right. All right, next we have, very different, local meetups.
MrBenBurns: Okay, give me context on this one. Are we talking inviting people or are we talking like finding a meetup
Stephanie: Like it could be a business meetup. No, no. This is where it's
MrBenBurns: on like
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: Eventbrite?
Stephanie: Yeah, finding an event on Eventbrite, or maybe it's a local a local Chamber of Commerce meeting or a local business entrepreneurs meeting, or perhaps it's like a creative morning situation. just going and meeting people locally in an organized way where you're not the one organizing it. You're just going
MrBenBurns: Okay.
Stephanie: to a meetup.
MrBenBurns: I'm ready.
Stephanie: You ready? And
MrBenBurns: Ready.
Stephanie: go. What'd you put you got one?
MrBenBurns: One.
Stephanie: You think it's awful?
MrBenBurns: I think it's awful. I do. What are you? Are you four?
Stephanie: Why? I think it's pretty good. I'm a four.
MrBenBurns: I thought that was a a really weird looking one. Wow, we're way far apart.
Stephanie: No it's four.
MrBenBurns: Okay, all right. Huh. Okay, you
Stephanie: Okay. Why do you hate it?
MrBenBurns: go first. No, no, I I'm gonna rip to shreds. You go first.
Stephanie: okay. Well, one, easy. It's super easy. It's you just go, right? Most
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: of these things are free. Now if it's paid, I'm gonna ding at some points. Cause I don't I
MrBenBurns: Okay.
Stephanie: think the purpose should be to just go for free to meet up. And I and there are there are a lot of those. I wouldn't go to all of them all the time because I do think that it could be like I think this is where it's like. You could overdo it. But I think meeting other business owners and just growing your network, not going in with the intent of I'm gonna get a lead right away from this. It's more about growing,
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: growing the network, which is lead generation. And that's something that I just really want people to like understand as the voice of lead generation, the one that heads up all the lead generation efforts inside of our inside of our curriculum. I think that the more that you can go out and meet people, the better. the more that you can grow your network, the better. Just but you're not gonna like just get a lead right away from it. And I think that going to to things like creative mornings are a great way to meet potential collaborators. Because if I'm a lettering artist and I meet someone at a creative morning who's a brand designer and they need that at some point in their future need a custom lettered logo, excellent. I have someone new in my network. But I would not make this something that you do all the time and just ignore the other ways of generating leads. I'm all for just growing the network and nurturing relationships from there. But you hate
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: this, but you hate this. So let's talk about that.
MrBenBurns: I think like, okay, for the purpose of finding collaborators and even competitors, I will agree that it's it can be good. And if we if we move more towards that side, like I'll upgrade to a two, right?
Stephanie: Ooh.
MrBenBurns: However, you said Chamber of Commerce, and that threw my mind into this whole like business networking meetup stuff. I have been to a lot of these, you know, like
Stephanie: Mm. Mm.
MrBenBurns: did several rounds in the Virginia Council of CEOs, great group. did so many Chamber of Commerce meetups, like had tons of like software meetups and all this kind of stuff. Like Everybody goes to those things because they want something. They're trying to grow their business. They're trying to bring in revenue. And so, like meeting everybody in those in those like really professional networking events, it's it's almost like you're you're meeting people in the wrong state of mind. Like you're not meeting somebody who's like really successful and they're looking for help because they're too busy. Those people are too busy to go to those networking events. And so, like, I've just never gotten a lead from
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: those things that have have that have netted out. However, participating in a community of people did get me leads. And matter of fact, I landed a forty thousand dollar project from doing a portfolio review at a at a college of all places. I was there
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: to provide value to students and to get used to like I wasn't doing any creative direction back then.
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: and so I didn't know how to talk to younger creatives or anything like that. I had no experience. And I was like, okay, well, I'm in a AIGA. Let me just volunteer for this thing, see if I can give back. I met another reviewer who then led to a giant branding project, which was great. I
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: I think that that's a little different than than local meetups. So like
Stephanie: I was gonna say everything out of your mouth is saying this is higher than a one. Okay. I
MrBenBurns: Yeah, okay. So I'll I'll upgrade how about this? We'll do a one for networking and then a four for local events. Participating in a community. Yeah.
Stephanie: Okay, okay, I like that. Yeah, because I would and maybe I didn't preface it, maybe I didn't explain local I think also there's only I mean, the cocktail shaker only holds so many lead generation methods. So it's like
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: we're we're trying to encapsulate everything into these local meetups. So like one of our members, Dixie, who is a client of mine, she was actually, if I'm correct f forgive me if I'm wrong, Dixie. I believe she was in her local chamber of commerce and she was part of some sort of local group and she was the greeter at all of the new I believe all of the new businesses that opened they would have like these like chamber of commerce like events where it was like the the ribbon cutting and all of that and she would be the greeter and for her as an introvert she really liked being the greeter and she was an interior designer This is in Knoxville, Tennessee. She got a lot of business from being in that group because she was people at these things. And this is where it's like, yes, we're thinking all creatives serve businesses, but Dixie served residents. And everyone there is a resident.
MrBenBurns: Mm
Stephanie: So it's like, this is where it's like it could be really great. Depending on what meeting you go to and who's there, and if you are really of
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: service to those people. So this one has a lot of nuance to it, and I see a lot
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: of potential, but that's where I'm like, you have to know: is this a good one for me? And there has to like just getting out there and meeting new people is always gonna be a good thing because I think we all just you've heard me say it, we need to practice being human in the world a lot more. Lately and talking to people and getting to know them. But I think that you can't just be like, Steph says it's a four, so I'm gonna go to all of them. I think this is where you really need to know what you're providing and if there's potential there for what you're providing and the people who are there, or if there's some sort of collaborative play that can happen, like if you're going to a local creative meetup.
MrBenBurns: I would I would argue that like It would be better for you to invest in a local community that you care about outside of work. Especially
Stephanie: Yes.
MrBenBurns: those that like bring in people with with
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: money, you know, like philanthropic
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: things, volunteering, you know, going to go into meetups with Matthew and Cena, keyboard. keyboard meetup that I went to
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: him with him in Boston, just like on a whim.
Stephanie: Yep.
MrBenBurns: Like, hey, that sounds really cool. I like keyboards. Let's go do that.
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: That helped get me the mode job. You know what I mean? Like, cause I met
Stephanie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: all those guys while we were in Boston. So it's like I had no intent of going there
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: to leverage that meetup for clients. I just cared enough about the community. And was interested enough about the subject matter and doing the thing that it led me to grow my network and expand the kind of people that you know,
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: like I hadn't met before. That's the key. That's that's what it is. It's you just have to manage your intent and that level of desperation
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: and invest as a real human next to other real humans, and good things happen.
Stephanie: This i i it wasn't like a local meetup, but this reminds me of a way that I got a client was I went to a guitar, it was in the middle of COVID. It's the guitar that's you can't see it because it's right up there. But I was buying this sort of rare Matthew Bellamy Muse, that he's the singer and guitar player in Muse. it's his signature guitar. And so I went during COVID to this vintage and rare guitar shop. in LA and I was the only person there obviously because I think at that point you had to like have an appointment or something to get in or whatever. But and so while I was there the guy was like, yeah, well he's very you know he's a Hollywood vampire. Yeah, I don't know if you know what a Hollywood vampire is, but like he's very Hollywood. And he was just like, Yeah, so like tell me about yourself because I don't have women coming into this guitar shop hardly ever. It it became the running joke of like anytime Stephanie came, they cleaned. They knew I was coming. I would like order a guitar from them and they're like, Stephanie's coming to pick up her guitar. We need to clean. And I was like, You guys don't need to clean today. I'm just picking up I I've been around musicians my entire life. You do not need to clean for me. But he was just like so like, who are you? Who is this woman coming and buying this very rare guitar? And I was just like, I just I'm a you know, I play guitar and I'm a huge, huge amuse fan. So when I saw this was for sale, I absolutely had I had to get it. And then he was just like, so what do you do? And I'm I'm a designer, because that's normally how I introduce myself because no one understands really anything deeper than that. And and he was like, do you design websites? And I was like, I can design a website. and it he became a client. So while I don't have that's such a like weird story of mine where there I can't pinpoint the method, only the method was what you just said, like having interests outside of our job so we can connect with people. Because if you're the designer and you're just you're in a circle of other designers, you really do need to stand out and have a thing. Or people won't know who to who when it comes to referrals, like how do we refer you? But if you are the the cool chick In the guitar shop, who is a designer, and it just so happens that they needed a a website designed. He didn't know any other website designers. And he was just like, You're I'm there was no one else to hire because I was there. So having
MrBenBurns: Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie: a rich life outside of work, I would say that's a lead generation method of its own that we didn't even
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: have in the shaker.
MrBenBurns: Yep. That's awesome.
Stephanie: And that one's a five out of that one's a five out of five for me. Yeah.
MrBenBurns: Interests, yeah. Interests are everything. And it works at the highest level too. I'll tell you that. I've been in rooms where where we're we're talking about six plus figures on on projects and the lead was brought in because they shared an interest with the founder of the company.
Stephanie: Yeah. And I was
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: telling someone earlier today on a one-on-one coaching call, like the reason my husband and I got the Foul Play Games rebrand was it's a murder mystery company with a geeky attitude. That's sort of their thing. And I'm a murderino and my husband and I are really into sci-fi. Right there. There was no other competition. For that project. So yeah, so have interests, guys. All
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: right, that's that's how we wrap up local meetups. I feel like that one got messy where my four became maybe a little lower and your one became a little higher.
MrBenBurns: Yeah, I like the I like the bifurcation 'cause if they see like if the if if if we see that it's like a networking mixer, like put on the eye patch and
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: get out of there.
Stephanie: Yeah, all right. Next up is walk-ins. We had a member who's
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: been doing this. A walk-in is where you have some sort of beautifully designed or beautifully created or just cleverly creative leave behind, and you walk into someone's business. And you drop it off and let them know that you would love to work with them and then follow up with them afterwards.
MrBenBurns: Here we go. I'm ready.
Stephanie: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Mmm. See, I know that this can work, but I've also seen it not work. Okay. All right, I'm ready.
MrBenBurns: I'm a four.
Stephanie: So you're a little higher than me. You're a little higher than me. And I know we've had members where this worked fabulously. And I know
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: we've had members who have just been devastated because they don't see it working as quickly as they want to. So that's why I gave it a three.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. I gave it a four because that's how I got my first design job.
Stephanie: Okay, tell us that story.
MrBenBurns: I saw a flyer about this agency that was looking for an intern and the date had already come and passed. So this flyer was on a bulletin board in the in the college where I was going and it was just like the deadline was already up. And so I figured like, okay, well, why not like dress up and you know, bring a business card, not beautifully designed. So I'm like failing it. the basic principle of this thing. But I just swung into the agency and I was like, hey, my name's Ben. I saw the flyer. If it's too late, no worries. But like would love to, you
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: know, leave my my card behind. And you know, very interested in in working with you. Cause like when I walked in, my God, like the whole entryway was decked out in like art from movies. And I was just
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: sold. Like they had Shrek plushies and like Toy Story stuff and there was like you know stuff from T V just all over the walls and the shelves and like it looked like a memorabilia museum in that place and I was like, my God,
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: this is amazing. so that's kind of how I got the interview and got my first design job. But also we had a member, Julien Pierre, who
Stephanie: Julian Pierre.
MrBenBurns: decided That he wanted to work with a company called Cake. And he came up with this idea
Stephanie: Advertising agency?
MrBenBurns: to he is a video producer, cinematographer, and editor. And the Cake is an ad agency. And it's a local agency,
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: but it it's it's a large one to him.
Stephanie: But it's also this is where I wanna just flag, I'm not low because I think you need to be in a major city to do this. Julian is in the middle of nowhere Canada.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. In the snowy north. So
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: he wanted to bake a cake and bring it in. And so I was like, Okay, well here's here's what you do. You go at like four or four thirty PM on a Thursday because you don't want to go on a Friday because everybody's like ramping up, they're probably on deadline and they're busy. You don't want to go on a on a Monday because everybody's getting their, you know, to dos for the week and they're recovering from the weekend. And then Tuesday and Wednesday are really good heads down, you know, get get the creative work for the week done. So I was like Thursday at like four or four thirty would be the perfect time to bring this in. And he did, and it resulted in a five-figure project. So
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: it was something custom for that one agency, but what would it take to like look up a bunch of businesses in your area and make something fun for them? Or Make something beautiful that represents who you are and what you do and and bring it in. So that's why I
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: was like a four. Plus there's a human element to this too. You know, being
Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah.
MrBenBurns: able to like shake hands or give a hug, careful with the hug, but like, you know, be present as a human being. It
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: there's something about that that is more impactful than a than a you know, cold call, for example.
Stephanie: Yeah. I gave it a little bit lower because I don't like I feel like with Julian's, it was like I believe he said it was a $16 cake, right? Like that's so like that's much easier. But I know that you know some of our members or just in general, people will create these really beautiful things to leave behind and it costs money. And when you are strapped for cash. It's really hard to have any kind of lead generation that will result in you having to pay money. It also is it for me, this is this is a very personal reason. It's energetically draining.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: physically and mentally, I am very much an introvert. And like that just sounds really exhausting for me. And it's not that I wouldn't want to like couldn't do it or am not capable of going in, it's just I'd rather go about it with other methods. But I also know that, you know, I think it also depends on he was going into an a an advertising agency with a cake and that's food. And who doesn't want to like, who doesn't wanna, who doesn't want to rally around some baked goods, right?
MrBenBurns: Right? Yeah.
Stephanie: Where if you're if you're going and and leaving behind something that you've designed and there's really no like conversation point around that, where it's like cake, yeah, let's sit around and have cake and chat. Like, I'm not if someone came in, if I had a studio that was open to the public and someone brought in cake, I'd be like, let's have a slice, man. But I do get where it's like if you're there to drop off something that you've designed and you've put a lot of time and effort and thought thought into it and then they're like, okay, well I'm busy. Thank you. I've got to get back to my deadline. It's a little, it's a little it's hard on like it's but
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: I mean lead generation is a game of rejection. And I get that. But like it's the in-person right there rejection where I'm like, okay. but it's
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: also a numbers game. And I think that doing that by the numbers, there are a lot of other ways to get in that many reps.
MrBenBurns: Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie: Than to actually walking into a butt, and it all depends. If you don't live in a place where there's a lot, like Julian Pierre probably couldn't do that in volume where he lives,
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: because there's just not that many. Where you either need to live somewhere where there's the room for that volume, or you try it as a one-off and not part of your lead generation, you know, pipeline of th predictable things that you do every week. or you have to live in a market like I do, where there are places that I could go. And that sounds extremely exhausting. And then where I live, I would have to pay for parking. Like this is getting expensive. So that's why I that's
MrBenBurns: Yeah. No, it makes sense.
Stephanie: why I dinged it a little bit, because I know how powerful it is, but I also know that it can be expensive and incredibly time consuming. And it's not gonna work very well for people who have full-time jobs. who have other kind of responsibilities during
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: the during the day. Like I would not have been able to do that when I was teaching because I would have had to drive into a major city, take time off of work, and it's just not not something I would have been able to do.
MrBenBurns: Yep. But if you're a real G,
Stephanie: So that's why I give it a little bit lower.
MrBenBurns: if you're a real G, all you gotta do is wear a construction vest and then you just get into the building, then take the construction. I'm just kidding. Don't do that.
Stephanie: Like so lie.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. Lie your way through the door. And then when
Stephanie: Lie your way through the door.
MrBenBurns: you're in the creative director's office, be like, guess what? I'm not in construction. Bam! And bust out, you know?
Stephanie: You really don't have a a leaky water pipe. I've s I'm such the murderino where I'm just like anyone just showing up being like you have a water leak, I'd be like, show me your credentials now. All right. That was a fun one.
MrBenBurns: Here's my portfolio. I don't know, that could work
Stephanie: All right.
MrBenBurns: for somebody. Who knows?
Stephanie: Alright, let's do another. What have we got here? Ooh, online marketplaces. Upwork Fiverr.
MrBenBurns: Mm. I'm ready.
Stephanie: You ready? You go first. Two and you have a one. I knew we were both gonna be low on this.
MrBenBurns: I need to like put that there or something. We need like a hat.
Stephanie: The great Schwami. I gave it a two. All right, let's just first talk about why you gave it a one. I feel like you actually teach a class on this inside of Maker. Okay, so wait,
MrBenBurns: Yeah. It would have been
Stephanie: wait, I think we need to go back for a second. LinkedIn, we do teach you how to do LinkedIn. We do teach you how to do local meetups, walk-ins, and okay. So so far all of this is our things we do teach in Maker Division,
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: whether or not they're on the low end or the high end. So why do you teach something and you give it a one, Mr. Ben Burns? Explain yourself. I know why you do, but Just explain yourself.
MrBenBurns: It would have been a two or a three for me two or three years ago. I think
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: times have changed. marketplaces attract people that don't know how to buy creative services. So you are going to be working with low budgets, inexperienced clients, and people that just don't know how to see or what they want. And it's one of those, right? Because if they know exactly what they want and they're they know, you know what they're looking for. Then what's gonna happen is they're going to places like Upwork because it's cheap. Things have changed in the last few years. They're still going to these platforms for it, but technology has allowed the low end of creativity to be taken up by people who are lesser skilled and willing to work for less. If somebody can generate a logo, it's like, you know. They'll do it for $5 or $10 or $20. And so, like the clients that naturally gravitate towards those platforms, they're going to be looking for as low as they can get. And if they can hire 20 people to do one thing and then just pick the best one, that's the way they'll do it. And so I think it's just there's a reality that AI, especially generative, generative AI, they're just soaking up the bottom. percentile of of jobs and people are gravitating towards these platforms that can sell that. And so you're just gonna see a race to the bottom, in my opinion. I also think what
Stephanie: I agree.
MrBenBurns: yeah, go for it.
Stephanie: I agree 100%. The only reason I gave it a two is because I know that for some people, with the understanding that if you're going on these platforms, you're not gonna make much money, and that you can't have it be your perfectly perfected Ben Burns level project branding workflow, and that you can just suck it up and make kind of a shitty logo or an AI logo or whatever. But I know that for some people, five of those projects a month is an extra hundred dollars and that means a lot. That's groceries. And I I don't
MrBenBurns: Absolutely. Yep.
Stephanie: want to belittle that. And that's why I gave it one more than a one because it's
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: free outside of the the fees that upwork and you know fiber the that they take but sometimes
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: when you are desperate and you can suck up that you are not creating at the level that you really want to create and you just have bills that have to be paid hey five of those projects a week that's four hundred dollars a month that's some groceries And I don't wanna belittle that. So that's why I gave it a two. But I do agree with you one hundred percent
MrBenBurns: Makes total sense.
Stephanie: that I think it's just it's just it's even more of a race to the bottom than it was a couple of years ago when when your when
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: your mini course on marketplaces came out.
MrBenBurns: And the other thing too is that it attracts people who don't require as much money as somebody who's doing this professionally full time. So for example, you know, somebody figures out that they can generate logos using Chat GPT. They're like, I could do this and they're attracted to these platforms because it's just a numbers game for them, right? And so you're competing against folks Who are making the same claims that you are, and they can do it for ten times less than you can profitably do this. because they're just like, yeah, there's this new thing that I can do, and I can just be like the the meat machine between the client and the
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: and the and the robot. And so I just think that like it attracts people that you don't want to compete with because they're going to compete on price.
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: And that that puts you in a disadvantage. And then also, it's just like when you look at the way that you have to compete for those jobs, you're letting somebody compare you apples to apples to the next guy. And so, like, you're gonna show your portfolio, which is 10 times better than this person over here, but they're 10 times cheaper. And so If if you're competing with 10 of those folks, you're gonna look like the outlier, which in some cases is good because some clients want to spend more money because they see that as a lower risk, working with somebody with more experience. Those clients are not really going to upwork for that, though. You know what I mean? So that's where it's like, or platforms like that. I don't want to single out upwork. I think that
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: there's lots of platforms that are like this. So that's where it's just like competitively, it's rough. The project is rough. The budgets are going to be rough. only if you really need the revenue to pay your bills would I ever recommend that. Cause it is fast. That's the one
Stephanie: Yeah, me too. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: thing that that's the one advantage that it has. It's fast because a client goes there, they post the the opportunity, and within a few days, you can lock it down and get it done.
Stephanie: Yeah. And that's why I gave it a two. Because of most of the things on here, it I so far it's the only one that we've talked about so far that it's like that's where clients are. They
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: they have a need, but you're not gonna get paid much. It's going to be fast. You're gonna get that money fast. It's not gonna be a fun project. It's just sort of like it's the suck it up and deal. of the lead generation methods where it's like if you have a bill that needs to be paid, do it. But make it as profitable as possible by spending as little time on it as possible and then moving on with your life. And implement these other lead generation methods. Yeah. All right, let's do another. But we do teach you how to do it. Okay, what does the shaker say? The shaker says attending conferences. Now, this can be,
MrBenBurns: Ooh.
Stephanie: we've got trade conferences and we've got industry conferences, and I'm just gonna put them both in this boat where a trade conference is going to be like if if I, as someone who is making title treatments and writing a book about cocktail creation, I could go to I live in Las Vegas, so this is a little little little easier for me. I could go to like the food and bev conferences that I have here in town. Or an industry conference is like for me, Letter West, Adobe Max, anything that is about the creative industry. Conferences. What you got?
MrBenBurns: Okay. You go first this time.
Stephanie: Yeah. I love conferences. From my perspective, it is where I got a lot of clients. I like it whether it was a smaller retreat style conference or a large conference and I'm chatting it up with people in s in in lunch lines. I love a Mia conference. I would give it a five if it didn't cost money.
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: So it's it's but it's also one of those things where you're not gonna get clients right away. That's what that's what the online marketplaces are for, right? I think there's a level
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: of all of these that I hope you guys are picking up that a lot of this is gonna take time and nurturing, but conferences, especially for me, trade conferences, where I was the creative. And everyone around me or a lot of the people around me were ideal clients. Alt Summit. I went to Alt Summit every year when I lived in California. I went to Alt Summit right before COVID. I was I went to Alt Summit, got a nasty bug, not COVID, from the hotel that I stayed at and had to like
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: I had to like call in to the doctor on on the like via Zoom or whatever. to get it taken care of, but I love conferences and I've seen magic recently with bringing people to Vegas and licensing expo and some of the conversations that haven't ended up as clients yet. Except maybe I feel like one of our members might have landed a client. No, one of ours did. I believe Chris landed a client From going to Licensing Expo. And then we have a couple of our other members who were there who followed up and are now having conversations. So it's a mixture of you have to know the right conference to go to for you. And I think there's also that leave behind, but it is pricey. But I think that in person, I'm always gonna go higher on in-person stuff because I think that's where relationships really start, and then you can continue them as you go. But they are pricey. Now, creative conferences, if I were to split this, I would put creative conferences low, lower. Like, I'm not gonna go to Adobe Max and meet my new best friend there. It's just so massive. But if it was something smaller like Letter West, I could maybe meet some new peers and there's possibility for working together on some things, but in terms of like getting clients out of it, I I don't I don't see that.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. Yeah. I I agree with everything you said. before this, before I went to licensing expo in our spring retreat, I probably would have rated it a two, simply because most of the conferences that I've been to are creative industry conferences. So like
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: the awards conference, the webflow conference. Like you're just not gonna find website clients there because everybody there builds websites. So
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: I think like selecting the right conference to go to is half the battle. And then affording it and affording the travel makes it difficult. So that's why I I I pinned a three on it, just because it's like I think it's really difficult for people for for a lot of creatives to like step outside themselves and go like, who
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: could value from my present who could value my presence at a conference like this? Now
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: Licensing Expo is a totally different game. It's a totally different beast because there's artists there that are looking for people to buy their art, which is great. But then there's like companies and manufacturers that are looking for art to buy. So that was the first time that I ever seen this like equal mix between buyers and sellers of creativity. And I was floored. Like I had conversations
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: that like could have led to client work. So it's like
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, me too.
MrBenBurns: I think that picking the right one is the is the play. It's the
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: whole thing.
Stephanie: I I think something else to add is if you live in a place that has conferences, especially trade conferences that don't serve the creative industry, go to them. Please go to them.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: because you are there's so much opportunity there. Like me living, if I was let's go gung-ho client services all day, every day, I would be scoping out. Because of where I live, what conferences are gonna be in town this month and which ones are aligned to my portfolio enough. Because a lot of this is another thing. Creative conferences, Ben, I'm gonna get in trouble if anyone ever finds this from the industry. We're out of our goddamn minds with how much these things are. Like, okay, and this is coming from someone
MrBenBurns: yeah.
Stephanie: like you and I run Maker Vegas. But it is a very small retreat of like 10 people or less. And it is extremely we don't do it to make money, obviously.
MrBenBurns: And we don't do it to make money either. Like
Stephanie: We also, there's there's so much high touch. There's so much more, like we are delivering a 90-day roadmap to them afterwards. So it's like.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: The amount of money that that has to be to make it profitable, it just has to be higher. It's not a money grab. Where I'm looking at some of these conferences and I'm like, do you guys know who you're serving? You're serving like one of the most heavily hit industries right now, and it's still like $1,200 to go to your conference? My God. With no right? Or crappy food. Like I try to make the
MrBenBurns: With no food? You know? No food?
Stephanie: food baller as baller as possible. But like it's just so Like that's not a good use. I don't
MrBenBurns: It's odd.
Stephanie: think, I don't think going to create it un unless it's just to be like of service to yourself. Yeah, and you have the money, yeah, then then have
MrBenBurns: inspired and you can afford it or your job pays for it. Yeah. Yeah. Different.
Stephanie: at it and and go. But for me, and if you live in a larger market where there are conferences or you're in a conference hub, I was I wouldn't even say that Vegas is a very large market. But we are a conference hub because we're a hospitality hub. Like,
MrBenBurns: Yes. Yeah.
Stephanie: go to the conferences, especially the ones that have strong alignment to your body of work. And then you show up because hopefully your body of work also reflects just like what you're into, right? It should be an extension of like your creative point of view. And then from there you can roll in and just be like, I'm just here to soak up the. The cocktail knowledge. I you know what, I'm an amateur cocktail
MrBenBurns: Mm, mm-hmm.
Stephanie: creator, but I create, you know, I'm really into rock music, so I I make these little music videos that are like the cocktail that's inspired by a song with a title treatment. Like, do you see how you see how easy that is for me to just go
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: and start talking to people? but I also think that at Licensing Expo in particular, and there's a reason we brought our members there, is like all of the industries are there. So it was for them, it was like for our members who went, it was just like beforehand we had a session with them. It's like, okay, now figure out your game plan. Look at the map and look at what companies you want to hit up. Do your research and where's their alignment. And like one of our members, Jesse May, she had a list. She knew exactly. She was like, I want to hit up them. I want to hit up them. I want to hit up them.
MrBenBurns: Mm-hmm.
Stephanie: And and, you know, have a conversation with people, but don't forget to follow up afterwards.
MrBenBurns: Yeah, yeah. And I also think that there's there are conferences out there That you just being a creative would allow you to s shine, you know? And
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: who knows if this is like something you want to do, but can you imagine like an accounting conference? How incredibly sorry, accountants. I you know, you you guys are amazing and I've seen I've had the opportunity to interact.
Stephanie: We have an amazing our our our accountant Matt is I love him. He's amazing.
MrBenBurns: Yeah, yeah. And like I have friends who are accountants and you guys are wild sometimes. But at the same time, like a professional accounting conference cannot be that thrilling. And so for you to show up as a creative, it's like you just you you naturally stand out. Why would you go to an accounting conference? I mean, that's you gotta make that connection, but like that's where it's like. Putting yourself into an environment where there are many potential clients and very few creatives is is the play, you know? and we're talking about just
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And a lot of those
MrBenBurns: attending, right? Just attending conferences. Okay. All right.
Stephanie: Just attending, just attending. And a lot of those conferences, those trade conferences, they're not that expensive. Like there was there was a trade
MrBenBurns: Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that too.
Stephanie: there was a trade conference here. Well, like licensing expo, if you get early bird tickets at $60. And then I mean, flights to Vegas are not that expensive. I I know I'm speaking like it may be expensive for some of you, but like a flight to Vegas. They're normally not that much because we're a major like destination. But also there's rooms that are super cheap in Vegas. Like it it's worth it to if you can go to a conference once or twice a year, would it be like like if if you can delegate some time and and and funds to go to a conference once or twice a year, absolutely do it. But if you live somewhere like I live. Just look at the local lineup for the month and be like, where am I going this month? Where's there a natural connection? I'm gonna go. All right, we'll do we'll do one more for this episode and then we'll do the rest in the next episode so we'll leave you guys on with a cliffhanger. All right, one more.
MrBenBurns: Blast.
Stephanie: Word of mouth slash referrals.
MrBenBurns: Mm. Mm okay. This one's hard.
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. I got mine.
MrBenBurns: Okay. All right.
Stephanie: You ready? Let's go.
MrBenBurns: okay. So you're leaning low at a two, and I got four. Okay.
Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: Here's what I went for. I went for so referrals, what is it? It is basically your existing customers referring you to other customers and helping you get more clients simply by by telling people how wonderful you are. I think. That as a source of leads, if you have a client that you're like that you loved working with, that paid well, and it was a good project, they should be able to connect you with others. And you can try and engineer these connections by asking for referrals at key points in the project. The upside is that these connections are really strong connections because they have social proof that you can do what you claim that you can do because their friend or the person that they know in their network can testify to that. the downside it's really hard to do this predictably, and a lot of it is out of your control. Which is why I didn't go five. Like I had to, I had to mark it down. The way that I consider word of mouth or referrals is like it can't be a part of a system that you predict, but it can be some icing on the cake that makes great months even better. So that's my my that's my two cents. Why'd you give it a two?
Stephanie: not lead generation.
MrBenBurns: snap!
Stephanie: It's part of the process of the project. I don't think it's lead generation. And I think that I've heard a lot of people talk about how that is the only way they generate leads. And I think it's incredibly lazy. I think it's not proactive enough.
MrBenBurns: Ooh.
Stephanie: I think it's lazy, guys. I think you're not being proactive in your business and you're just expecting other people to grow your business for you. And that's not how
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: it works. Not how it works. And I don't even think that a lot of people are doing the cool suave Ben Burnt play because we do teach this, but we teach it in module
MrBenBurns: yeah.
Stephanie: five, which is not a lead generation module, it's the
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: project management module. It's part of your project workflow, is asking for the referral. And I don't think many people even are. I think they're just by the grace of their clients getting more clients.
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: And then once those referrals are gone, they are left with absolutely nothing. Because they have not
MrBenBurns: Yeah, yeah.
Stephanie: been generating any leads. And while I I agree with what you said 100%, I technically don't think it's a way of generating leads. It's not predictable enough. So relying on it, as and I think this is what so many creatives have done, and I think it's why the industry. Is having such a hard time right now is once word of mouth and referrals dries up, where do you go from there? Like so far, everything,
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: even I mean, everything we've talked about so far is is proactive in some way. Well, no, I think online marketplaces is a bit reactive. I think online marketplaces
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: you're reacting to something. And I would much rather you ask your old clients for a referral after the fact. Than have to go to an online marketplace. And I but I gave both of them a two. So maybe, maybe it's maybe word of mouth and referrals is a 2.5. But at least by posting on LinkedIn in the proper way of showing your work and having a point of view or a problem that you are actively solving, at least you're being proactive about your lead generation. And so
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: I do think that it's icing on the cake, but I don't think icing on a cake should be ranked so highly because it's like,
MrBenBurns: Mm.
Stephanie: That's nice extra clients. It's just that's where we get into trouble is relying on other people to grow our businesses for us. So I just can't give it higher than a two.
MrBenBurns: Yeah. I I think it is generating leads because you're going for and you if it works, if you're asking for the referral and if you're asking for those
Stephanie: Yes.
MrBenBurns: connections, it's like technically you're expanding your network. It's just you're giving up a lot of the control, like you said, because it's like you're
Stephanie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: relying on somebody else to make those connections. And if I'm being honest, like most people don't think about you. After the job is done, unless something comes in like a wrecking ball and forces them to think about you. And that's the I think that that's
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: the big misconception. It's like, my gosh, I designed this logo. And so the company that I designed this logo for is gonna go bananas and spread the word about how amazing I was to work with because they gushed
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: over the process and the result and all that kind of stuff. in reality, that company has moved on. They're focused on whatever their Q4 goals are, and they're
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: they're just moving on in a d in in another direction. and so you have to engineer it. You have to be proactive about getting those referrals. And there are key
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: moments in the project where it's like part of the process that that I teach is you look for the high moment. That's when
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
MrBenBurns: you ask for a testimonial, that's when you ask for a referral, that's when you ask for a connection. And then I have also gone far enough where I'm like doing some research on LinkedIn, looking to see who is connected with who, and seeing if any of my past clients are connected with them and then asking them for an intro to that person. So when I say engineer referrals in word of mouth, it's like you have to really engineer
Stephanie: Uh-huh.
MrBenBurns: these things, you know? Like you should be looking at your Clients' LinkedIn connections to see if there's anyone that you can specifically ask for a referral to. That's how you do
Stephanie: I
MrBenBurns: it.
Stephanie: yes. That's not how most people are doing it though. And I think that's why I gave
MrBenBurns: No.
Stephanie: it a two, because it's like they're just it's just total passive. I think the dream is just like you work with someone and you just they they market your business for you. And I think that's what a lot of people are doing. But I also think that it requires one thing that a lot of people right now don't have clients to ask referrals from. So it's like if
MrBenBurns: Yeah, that's true.
Stephanie: you're start if you're starting from scratch. Or you're like me where you had to burn down your entire business because all of your clients sucked. Like I did not w that's how I got into the mess that I got into because I was just like, I hate all these clients and they keep giving me more people that I can't stand.
MrBenBurns: Mm. Mm-hmm. And that's something that
Stephanie: Set.
MrBenBurns: about word of mouth, those clients, that's why I I I I disclaimed it. It's like if it's a client you liked working with with a good budget and it was a good project, they're going to refer you to other people that have the same budgets and that hopefully
Stephanie: Mm.
MrBenBurns: share the same characteristics. Because somebody that you know, and I've had so much experience with this, somebody that sucks to work with will refer you to other people that suck to work with. Somebody who has a
Stephanie: Yes.
MrBenBurns: low budget will refer you to other people who have low budgets. And so those referrals automatically come with a little bit of a price ceiling that you're gonna have to navigate,
Stephanie: Birds of a feather.
MrBenBurns: you know? So yeah, I agree.
Stephanie: Alright, let's just recap. Let's just okay, let's just do some quick strategy for our own studio, Ben. Will third
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: will third editions be using online marketplaces? No. Will be we be attending conferences.
MrBenBurns: Yes.
Stephanie: Yes, I live in Las Vegas. This is a no-brainer. We're absolutely doing that. I'll be I'll be them I'll be the girl on the scene. will we be doing walk-ins?
MrBenBurns: Probably not.
Stephanie: I don't think so for us because I'm the one that lives in the larger market. I think that w I feel like all of the ones that I would do are still in the cocktail shaker. And
MrBenBurns: Ha ha ha.
Stephanie: I know what the other ones are. And I just think walk-ins for for our studio is not the right play.
MrBenBurns: Yeah.
Stephanie: local meetups? Will we be doing local meetups? Probably not.
MrBenBurns: Probably not. Not for me.
Stephanie: I don't I don't think that's what I want to do right now. Word of mouth referrals.
MrBenBurns: As a part of the process, yeah, we can't rely on
Stephanie: Yeah.
MrBenBurns: it though.
Stephanie: Yeah, we're not gonna rely on it, but will we be going back to our old clients? Absolutely. Will we be going on LinkedIn, Mr Bun Burns? I will not. you will. Okay. Well you have
MrBenBurns: Think so. You will not. I think I think
Stephanie: fun.
MrBenBurns: I think I wanna try it and I think I wanna see if I can train all the junk out of the algorithm.
Stephanie: it's so bad. See, okay, so
MrBenBurns: It is.
Stephanie: I will I will be girl on the scene and you'll be man about LinkedIn.
MrBenBurns: Okay. Sounds good. All right. How
Stephanie: Okay. Sounds good. And all of the ones that I actually want to do are gonna be right here. Let us know in the chat which of these you I
MrBenBurns: I know. I'm dude, I'm
Stephanie: wanna know. I wanna know your guys's like
MrBenBurns: I want one. There's one in there that I know is my it's gonna be my only five, you know what I mean?
Stephanie: okay, I hope it's in there. Because I made all
MrBenBurns: Ha ha ha.
Stephanie: of these without you knowing. All right, stay tuned to the next episode and we will continue going down the the ranking of lead generation methods. Till next week, guys.
MrBenBurns: Woo woop.