On the fence about parenthood? Listen to this

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.359
New shows, new music, new movies. Keeping up with pop
2
00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:06.799
culture sometimes feels like a full time job. Thankfully, over
3
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:10.039
at pop Culture Happy Hour, it's literally our job. We
4
00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:13.439
break down what's actually worth watching, listening to, and pretending
5
00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:16.199
you already knew about. So the next time someone says
6
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:19.800
did you see that, you can say yeah, obviously follow
7
00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:23.480
NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. Wherever you get your podcasts.
8
00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:31.199
You're listening to Life Kid from NPR. Hey, it's Mary
9
00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.759
l You know. I feel lucky to live in a
10
00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:39.359
time in which becoming a parent is increasingly a choice right,
11
00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.399
not just the default setting for your life path or
12
00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:45.799
the next natural step. It's a big deal to bring
13
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:48.399
another life into the world, and deciding if you want
14
00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.079
to do that is a question that's bound to raise
15
00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:51.759
a bunch more.
16
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:55.280
The baby decision is never just about baby or no baby.
17
00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.719
It is who am I, who is my partner? Who
18
00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:01.640
are we as a couple, and what hasn't happened yet
19
00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.480
that we want to have happened before we die.
20
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:09.200
Merle Bombarderi is a clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and author
21
00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.319
of a book called The Baby Decision. She's been coaching
22
00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:15.000
people through this choice about whether to have a child
23
00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:16.480
since she was twenty.
24
00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:19.239
Nine, so it's almost fifty years. I've been doing this
25
00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:20.319
and I love doing it.
26
00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:23.359
Merle started down this path after facing her own baby
27
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.400
decision when her then boyfriend proposed to her. She told
28
00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.040
him no at first because she knew he absolutely wanted
29
00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.200
kids and she was pretty sure she didn't.
30
00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:36.560
And he just said, well, you know, you'll change your mind.
31
00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:38.959
You know our love will continue. At some point, You'll
32
00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:41.079
just want to have a child. And I said to
33
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:42.480
we can't be sure of that.
34
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.439
So they talked about it over several months, what the
35
00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.400
future could look like with a child and without one,
36
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.599
what they each wanted for themselves, and where they might
37
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.239
be able to compromise. And here's a pro tip.
38
00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.680
A really really important thing am I being able to
39
00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:58.959
make the decision is that I've found role models.
40
00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.359
In her case, you talk to the mothers coming in
41
00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:03.879
and out of the university daycare center where she worked.
42
00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:06.400
Many of them were faculty or grad students.
43
00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:10.080
They said, life is really really busy right now. It's
44
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:14.360
really really hard these first few years, but we love both,
45
00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:17.919
we love both lives, and you know we know that
46
00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.199
parents is going to get easier. So yes, we are
47
00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.800
feminists and you know, very adamant to continue our careers,
48
00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.080
and we're also mothers.
49
00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:30.400
Merle has two daughters. Now that was her choice, Yours
50
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:33.120
might be different. She says, there's no right or wrong
51
00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.520
as long as you make a choice intentionally, rather than
52
00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.919
letting time or fate decide for you, because she's found
53
00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.759
that's how regret and resentment can creep in.
54
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.479
I really believe that child free should be the default.
55
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:48.280
We should assume that everyone is going to be child
56
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:52.159
free unless they actively choose to have a child because
57
00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.159
they value that they want to add a child to
58
00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:54.960
their lives.
59
00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:59.360
On this episode of Life Kit, how to Decide whether
60
00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:03.159
to become a parent, Lifecare reporter Andy Tagle he's going
61
00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.639
to talk to Merle about minimizing regret, about the myth
62
00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:09.879
of the lonely only child, and about how to deal
63
00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:12.639
when your partner wants something completely different from you.
64
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:30.800
So much of the handwringing about the baby decision, it
65
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.240
seems it comes down to regret, just plain and simple.
66
00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.719
Is it possible, Merle not to have regrets, to be
67
00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.680
totally certain about being a parent or being child free?
68
00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.159
I would say no. The word decide comes to Latin root,
69
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:47.479
meaning to cut away from. So every decision involves loss.
70
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.120
You've decided to have a child, you're giving up all
71
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:54.439
the control and the freedom and the excitement and the
72
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.360
ability to have a really undeluded relationship with your partner
73
00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.319
if you're in a relationship and so on. If you
74
00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.319
decide to be child free, you're giving up experiencing a baby,
75
00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.120
maybe seeing what the genes and the appearance and the
76
00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:09.240
talents of you and your partner will be, like who's
77
00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.159
going to be around your table when you're sixty. So
78
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:16.959
what I say is, don't ask will I regret my decision?
79
00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:22.720
Ask which decision will I regret least? And what makes
80
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:26.120
this decision work so hard? Is it because people are
81
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.040
trying to make the decision, and they want to make
82
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.759
the right decision, and they're terrified they won't. They have
83
00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:34.360
a very unrealistic picture of having to spend the rest
84
00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.879
of their life. You know, regret might be you know,
85
00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.519
a little twinge, a little awareness here and there, But
86
00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:43.319
once they start enjoying and living their life, they're not
87
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.600
going to be thinking about regrets all the time. And
88
00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.040
when there are twinges that can say, well, you know,
89
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.439
that's normal, that's human, and we made a good choice
90
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:54.759
and we're enjoying our lives. So but when people think
91
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:57.199
they have to make the perfect choice, they really pay
92
00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:58.439
themselves into a corner.
93
00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.279
You're holding back without knowing it because of that daycare
94
00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:03.240
that you might need to be saving for, because of
95
00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:05.040
XYZ exactly.
96
00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:10.120
And when people make decisions actively, they feel in control,
97
00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.399
they feel like they made a wise choice together, so
98
00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.079
when the problems come up, they put them in that context.
99
00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.040
Whereas people who have an accidental pregnancy or just a
100
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.800
drift into being child free never really have a finite decision,
101
00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.759
and that energy of not making the decision is actually exhausting.
102
00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.639
So the conscious decision allows people to know what they're doing,
103
00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:34.480
why they're doing it, and make the most of whichever
104
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:35.319
life they choose.
105
00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.879
Take away one either side of this decision is going
106
00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.199
to come with regrets, at least now and then. So
107
00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.839
there's no perfect choice. There's just the right choice for you,
108
00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.279
I said, I did ask Merle if there was any
109
00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:55.199
way to have both worlds, and to my surprise, she
110
00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.360
said yes, Actually, in a way, there is the answer.
111
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.319
If it makes sense, wait to have a baby until
112
00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:04.399
you're thirty eight.
113
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.319
Thirty eight is great. I have to caution because if
114
00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:11.519
you have reasons to expect fertility problems and you're thirty,
115
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:13.639
I would not suggest you wait until you're thirty eight
116
00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.360
or you're thirty nine. But actually a lot of the
117
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:19.680
people that we work with start having a child at
118
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.839
thirty eight or thirty nine. You were eighteen when you
119
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:27.040
first became an adult. You've had twenty years to travel,
120
00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.639
get established in your career, get to know your partner,
121
00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.879
your desires, your commitments, what you care about, and so on,
122
00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.079
and you are much more ready to be a parent.
123
00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.199
You're able to have a smaller world that feels big
124
00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.319
inside because you love your child, for instance. So people
125
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:48.680
who do have a child around thirty eight have a
126
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:50.759
way in which they have both lives.
127
00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:52.920
Now.
128
00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.319
If that magic number doesn't feel like the answer, take
129
00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.319
way two is it's okay to feel stuck. Yes, there
130
00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:03.360
are some people out there who always knew they wanted
131
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.879
to be a daddy, or that they never ever wanted
132
00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.480
to go through pregnancy. But morel says many many others
133
00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:13.639
are just right in the middle, or maybe leaning slightly
134
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:18.199
in one direction, say sixty forty. And if that's your split,
135
00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.319
she says that's a good start because that's the beginning
136
00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:26.199
of a decision, and in her experience, she's found that
137
00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.720
eighty twenty is about as solid as it gets for
138
00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.959
a lot of people. Just something to keep in mind
139
00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.879
as you move forward. Let's talk about a few ways
140
00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:37.160
to get a little closer to the decision that you
141
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:39.800
will regret the least. I know, there's a lot of
142
00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.240
a lot of great exercises that you offer people. I
143
00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.519
wonder if you have a favorite one that you like
144
00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:44.000
to start with.
145
00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.040
One that I like to start with is the chair dialogue.
146
00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:49.399
I mean, you don't do it with your partner, you
147
00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.040
don't do with an audience. You put two chairs facing
148
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:54.040
each other, and you sit in one chair and say,
149
00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:56.360
of course, I'm going to have a baby. I've longed
150
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.279
for this, you know, all my life, and I want
151
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:00.879
my parents to have a grand and it's going to
152
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:02.720
be fun, it's going to be great. And then go
153
00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.879
sit in the other chair and say I'm terrified of pregnancy,
154
00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.240
I don't like children, And let those two voices argue
155
00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.959
it out, and I really emphasize you're not making a
156
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.560
list of pros and cons. You're trying to listen to
157
00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.959
the body language is you sit in one chair, you
158
00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:23.120
feel more alert, you feel more animated. One side is angry,
159
00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.399
one side is pleading, and so you get a lot
160
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.720
of information and people usually just know when the energy
161
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.519
has changed. And what I love about this is so
162
00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.320
many people who will just be so surprised. They'll say,
163
00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.320
I thought I really was fifty to fifty, and my
164
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.159
child voice is so much stronger than I thought, or
165
00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.559
my child free voice is so much stronger. Because I
166
00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.200
thought having kids is what people do, and because my
167
00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.039
partner and my parents wanted it, of course I was
168
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.440
going to have a child. And until I heard this voice,
169
00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.919
I didn't realize that maybe my truest self and my
170
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.240
happiest self would be a child free person.
171
00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.120
Since it can get you clear on your own values
172
00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:01.120
about the two sides, and that's why you want to
173
00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:02.759
do it by yourself, and then you can bring those
174
00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.759
values to a conversation with a partner if you have one, yes, exactly,
175
00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:09.960
next one I had here is the knapsack exercise.
176
00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.279
So you imagine you have a very very large knapsack
177
00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.399
on your back and you're going on a hype that
178
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.240
you're really enjoying and all of a sudden, your baby
179
00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:20.679
is there and your baby kicks a hole in the
180
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.200
knapsack and everything starts to fall out. What's falling out?
181
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.039
And you can think of that symbolically. It could be
182
00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.840
a tennis racket, you know. It could be a typewriter
183
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.039
if you're a writer. It could be a lab beaker
184
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:36.919
if you're a biochemist. It can be imagining being able
185
00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:39.360
to wake up late on Sunday morning with your partner
186
00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:42.080
and not having to talk to anyone or do anything.
187
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.320
So looking thinking about what's falling out, one question is
188
00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:49.399
how do you feel about that? And it could be
189
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.080
that's horrible. I would never do that. I'm going to
190
00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.240
be child free. But for people who choose to be parents,
191
00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.480
it's really a great invitation to creative thinking, well, what
192
00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:01.320
if we had a child, how would I play tennis?
193
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:04.600
How would I write my novel? How can we have
194
00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.759
great couple time, etc. So very very rich things come
195
00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:10.559
out of that.
196
00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.360
That visual is just so striking, just kicking it out
197
00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.639
and letting everything still out okay. And then the final
198
00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.039
one Swedish family hotel.
199
00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.360
The idea of Swedish family hotel is some parents in
200
00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:25.200
Europe have wonderful opportunities to raise their kids without doing
201
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.440
it all alone. They might live in a community where
202
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.559
their child can walk to school, where the daycare center
203
00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.120
is next door, where they have their separate family apartments,
204
00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:38.759
but there's a big common room where people share meals,
205
00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:42.919
and there's a lot of parental leave, and so in
206
00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:47.200
this kind of setup, you're not driving kids ten miles
207
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.879
to get to daycare. So whatever direction we can go
208
00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.480
in for us all to raise kids together will make
209
00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:55.480
it a lot easier.
210
00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.200
All right, This sounds wonderful and thatth leads pretty far
211
00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:02.080
away from the yelly of how most parents live here
212
00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:02.679
in the US.
213
00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:05.879
Is the idea of this exercise to you.
214
00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:07.639
Know, be more aware of what it means to be
215
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.639
a parent and like think about what kind of support
216
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.399
they'd actually need to raise a family.
217
00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:15.799
Well, you know, you read about how it's set up,
218
00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:19.799
and if you are one hundred percent child free, you
219
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.360
would say even with that, I would still not want
220
00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.320
to have a child, And that that exercise really helps
221
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.240
me realize I don't want to be a parent, whereas
222
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.000
other people will say, wow, if I could do this,
223
00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.200
I would definitely have a child, maybe two children. And
224
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.759
so it raises their awareness. Maybe they really have decided
225
00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.399
to be a parent, but they need to decide is
226
00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:45.320
parent possible for me and for us with these circumstances.
227
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.679
So take a pause, take a little time, Maybe you
228
00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.799
about a few chairs and see what comes to the surface.
229
00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.960
You might surprise yourself. Then when we come back from
230
00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.519
the break or all, we'll talk about some of the
231
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.759
common fears that hold people back. You sed to have
232
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:17.039
kids or be child free. You're listening to Life Kid,
233
00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.279
and it's time for takeaway three. For better or worse.
234
00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.200
The future holds no guarantees. Only you can decide how
235
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.879
much fear of discomfort or uncertainty you can handle with
236
00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.320
the information you have to work with. A big one
237
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.200
for a lot of people, for example, is climate change,
238
00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:35.720
or you know, the general state of the world and
239
00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:40.440
the planet. Merle says, even for her, this one is difficult.
240
00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:42.639
I'm scared too, you know. I'm used to being the
241
00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.240
professional who can sort of help people deal with their emotions.
242
00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:47.759
I can give them the intellectual framework, etc. But I
243
00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:49.480
don't know what our world is going to be like,
244
00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:51.720
you know, in twenty years or thirty years or two
245
00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:54.919
hundred years. Is very confusing.
246
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.720
And The thing is, with any worry, say the pain
247
00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.559
of childbirth or the fear of loneliness in old age,
248
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.720
if you're leaning child free because you can't know for
249
00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.159
certain how things will shake out, it really all comes
250
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:13.000
down to perspective. Like with the environment, Merle says she's
251
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.399
had a client who say, I just can't bring a
252
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.480
child into this world. But on the other side of
253
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.360
the coin, she sided this perspective from a book called
254
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.480
The Beginning Comes after the End, and the idea is
255
00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:28.759
just that there are so many different kinds of people
256
00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.120
around the world that are energized about wanting to make
257
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.200
change right now that it's bound to happen.
258
00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:36.720
Some people decide to be child free. You say, I'm
259
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.320
going to use my time that I would be putting
260
00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:42.840
into children to really work on environmental change. Parents you
261
00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.960
might think, oh, if they could decide to have a child,
262
00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:46.519
they're just going to put their head on a stand.
263
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.120
But no, it's how do we raise our children so
264
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.320
that they appreciate the planet and help solve the problem.
265
00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:57.159
Another example, Merle says, with the advent of TikTok, she's
266
00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.360
found our current generation is more terrified of childbirth than
267
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:04.919
ever before. Now if you look at maternal mortality rates
268
00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.320
or recent research on early prenatal care, maybe that's enough
269
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.240
to ease your worry. Maybe finding some relaxation techniques and
270
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.840
a birthing team you really like could help even more.
271
00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.879
But maybe not, And there's nothing wrong with that.
272
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.480
We would never encourage anyone who is terrified of that
273
00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.279
to push themselves over the edge and say yes to parenthood,
274
00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.080
and they deserve our respect. You know, we shouldn't say, oh,
275
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:33.919
your cowards because you didn't go ahead. Everybody's needs and
276
00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.120
feelings are different and they have a right to say
277
00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:38.600
no to parenthood, even if in many ways I'd like
278
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.240
to be a parent. They can make their own choice
279
00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:42.440
and we need to respect that.
280
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.360
And on the other side, you never know what your
281
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.240
child will go through. You never know what your child
282
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.320
will be like, You never know the disposition of your child.
283
00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.320
You never know the ailments your child will have or
284
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:54.679
the hardships they'll go through.
285
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:59.159
Thoughts on that, well, what I hear when I'm listening
286
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:04.840
to our own clients is we want to be parents
287
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.679
enough that even though we hope this doesn't happen, we
288
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:15.000
still think it would be worth it. Not everybody decides that,
289
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.639
but a lot of people do. One example I'll give
290
00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.919
is people who have grown up with a sibling who
291
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.840
was very sick or had a disability, where a lot
292
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.399
of the family resources, the parents' attention, time, money went
293
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:33.639
into the other child. For understandable reasons, they are more
294
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.840
terrified of having a child that might be very difficult
295
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:40.159
to raise, in a child that might suffer, So for
296
00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.240
them to make the decision to have a child is
297
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.600
much much more difficult. And so for people who are
298
00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:49.000
ambivalent about that, sometimes the best thing to do is
299
00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:51.039
to decide not to have a child.
300
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.320
Take away for the baby decision might not be as
301
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.080
black and white, all or nothing as you think it is.
302
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.480
So if you have a partner who's to be on
303
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:05.559
the opposite side of the spectrum, don't panic, challenge your assumptions,
304
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.200
get creative, look for the middle ground. Yes there is
305
00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:14.200
middle ground here. For example, maybe you would really love
306
00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.360
a family, but you're really worried about your finances. Have
307
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.519
you considered having just one child? I mean, the question
308
00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:27.120
is usually so you're gotta have kids, the plural is assumed, right,
309
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.639
the first one's got to have a buddy or else.
310
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.600
But why do you feel that way exactly.
311
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.519
So there's the myth of the lonely only child, but
312
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:39.240
actually only children are voted most popular in their class.
313
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.200
They're very mentally healthy, they get along really well with
314
00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.759
other people, and they often enjoy as their parents do
315
00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:51.039
a more undiluted relationship, especially if people have either their
316
00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.879
parent has an illness or if they have ADHD or
317
00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.480
another cognitive nerd of diversion disorder. They may man to
318
00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.320
have one child and have it work that they're enjoying
319
00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.839
the child, the child's enjoying life, they're doing their work,
320
00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.319
they have the relationship, but if they add another child
321
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.319
to the pile, it is just going to be impossible.
322
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:13.799
And a lot of times people are pressured, oh, your
323
00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.640
child needs a sibling. Absolutely not true. So I believe
324
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:21.279
that the one child family is an excellent solution for
325
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:26.200
many couples and also single people who want the pleasure
326
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.720
of a child but don't want to be overwhelmed by
327
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.640
the obligation for many children.
328
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.640
Another big part of this is when two people want
329
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.720
different things, very often the assumption is this is a
330
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.640
zero sum game. Right either yes we're doing this, no
331
00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:42.359
we're not. And if we can't decide, we have to
332
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.319
break up. Can we talk a little bit about what
333
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:46.799
that process is if that's true or not.
334
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.960
Well, some people do break up and that can be
335
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.160
the answer. So if you think of the decision as
336
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.200
being a scale from zero to ten on eleven point scale,
337
00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.960
and if you absolutely know that you would never have
338
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:02.799
a child, you would be the zero. This is no
339
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.599
criticism of child free. It's because you want zero children.
340
00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:07.960
And if ten is I was put on the earth
341
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:09.680
to have a child and I will have to divorce
342
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.599
my partner if they say no, most people are somewhere
343
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.960
in between. So a lot of times people actually can
344
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.240
find a solution that will work for both of them.
345
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.119
And again we're looking at myths. So sometimes people have
346
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:28.759
very unrealistic ideas about how lonely being child free would
347
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.240
be or how hard parenting is going to be, and
348
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.640
when they get more information, they're actually able to say, well,
349
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.920
maybe this could work. And so what's really important is
350
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.359
that the couple listen to each other. They describe what
351
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.640
they are envisioning of the life, why they think their
352
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.000
partner would enjoy it, and they really listen to their
353
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.160
partner's desire. And when they do that and they get
354
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.079
more information, about good things about child free, good things
355
00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.880
about parentim that they didn't know. Sometimes they're able to
356
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:02.920
come to the center. So if one person wants to
357
00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.160
be child free and they are are four, and the
358
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.359
other person wants a child but they're an eight, they
359
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.319
have a capacity and listening to each other and figuring
360
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:12.880
out what would be the best life for them as
361
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.599
a couple to decide to be child free or to
362
00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:16.240
have a child.
363
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:18.400
Let's get more specific about that. So, for example, in
364
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.119
that four in eight scenario, maybe that four person who's
365
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.880
child free says, I'm leaning towards child free because i
366
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.720
want to travel some more. You know, I've never seen Spain,
367
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.640
I've never seen Asia. And the person says, I've always
368
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:32.799
seen myself as a mother. What could a compromise look
369
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:33.200
like there?
370
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.079
Okay, Well, one thing I may discussed is, okay, name
371
00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.599
some countries you want to go to. Let's talk about
372
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:42.960
how we could go to them and start a family
373
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:47.400
in three years. Another compromise is I want three kids,
374
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:51.000
you want zero. If we really talk about this, could
375
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.200
you imagine that one child might work. There are a
376
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:56.519
lot of people who are ambivalent. They're aware of what
377
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.519
they're giving up by even winning their choice aware of
378
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.880
things that they would enjoy with their partner's choice. The
379
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.640
one thing that I feel very strongly about is if
380
00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.440
someone is certain that they want to be child free,
381
00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.319
they should never have a child to please their partner.
382
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:15.200
That just does not work out, whether it's going to
383
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.440
be divorce or an unhappy family, it is just too
384
00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:20.000
much of a struggle.
385
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.200
If you're a zero on that scale and you know
386
00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.799
it for sure, you should never agree to have a
387
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:27.680
child to please your partner.
388
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.759
Exactly. A lot of times people will decide I love
389
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.960
my partner, I do not want to give my partner up,
390
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:37.079
even though I would prefer the other life. I see
391
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.799
enough attractions to their life that I'm going to say yes.
392
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.880
And one thing that's really important if you are going
393
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.839
to agree to your partner's choice is you need to
394
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.240
know that they have bent over backwards to figure out
395
00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.880
a way that it could work, like saying, you know,
396
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.400
more years of travel, or you know, I really need
397
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.880
my you know once a year of my college roommates
398
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.920
going off for a week to backpack or whatever, and
399
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.039
asking what could I do to make this choice more
400
00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:08.799
attractive to you? And that can be very useful too.
401
00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:10.079
I like that a lot.
402
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.920
What about those couples that made an agreement when they
403
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.160
first got together. You know, you said that you never
404
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.599
wanted kids, You said that you always wanted to be
405
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:17.960
a mother.
406
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.400
Let's say you've been married for twenty years. You know,
407
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.559
you're forty, and it was twenty when you said, of
408
00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:25.279
course I'll be a parent, or of course I'll be
409
00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.480
a child free. People change, People have a right to
410
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:33.359
change their minds, and one can feel very betrayed, and
411
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.000
one can understand the betrayal. But a part of life
412
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:40.400
and a part of all the people you love, not
413
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:44.160
just your partner, is understanding that they like you, can
414
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.480
have new needs, new desires, new things they want to
415
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.839
try or experience, and that what made perfect sense to
416
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:54.440
them at twenty is different now.
417
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.640
Last up, take Away five. You are allowed to change
418
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.599
your mind and, if necessary, your path in life. That
419
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.839
might look like seeking a new relationship with a partner
420
00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.960
who shares your desire for a child free lifestyle, or
421
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.759
maybe becoming a parent without a partner. Any advice for
422
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.160
someone who is single who's still on the fence about
423
00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.440
having kids. What kind of questions should someone who's looking
424
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.720
to be a single parent by choice.
425
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:28.880
Consider an important thing is having a support system. You
426
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.640
don't want to do it all on your own. You
427
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:31.920
know who do you call a middle of or not?
428
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.000
If you're trying to decide whether to go to the hospital.
429
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.799
You know who's going to be patting your tummy when
430
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.359
you're eight months pregnant. And one thing that's really interesting
431
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.519
about single mothers by choice is we have a stereotype
432
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.240
that single mothers are miserable. But if you have a
433
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.359
happy life as an individual and you actively choose to
434
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.559
add a baby to your life again, you make an
435
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.039
active decision, you're in control and it can be quite wonderful.
436
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.599
Another thing that's really interesting about single motherhood is that
437
00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:02.880
when you're a single mother or single father, everybody knows
438
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.039
you need help. They know you can't do it all,
439
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.039
so they'll offer to drive you to the grocery store
440
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.279
or stay with your child while you do something else.
441
00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.519
They know to reach out to you. So there's a
442
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.680
lot of great things happening with single people becoming parents.
443
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.680
H Mar, It's been such a pleasure. Do you have
444
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.599
any last advice final thoughts for anyone out there who's
445
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:26.359
sitting on the fence in the need of encouragement.
446
00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.200
Well, I think one thing that's really important is that
447
00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.799
you're right to not know. A lot of times when
448
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.839
people start working on this, they're saying, what's the matter
449
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:37.400
with me or with my partner that we don't know.
450
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.599
It's actually healthy to not know because it gives you
451
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.759
the chance to figure out what you really want. And
452
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.400
if you think about curiosity, like you know, if you
453
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:49.799
read a mystery and you've found out who done it
454
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:51.920
in the first chapter, you would want to read the
455
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.000
rest of the book or think about going to a
456
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:58.359
play and the curtain hasn't opened yet, and that anticipation
457
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.559
and curiosity what's going to happen? So a lot of
458
00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.279
interesting things can happen on the way to finding out
459
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.240
that are really wonderful for your personal growth if you're
460
00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.319
in your relationship, also for couple growth, and even if
461
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:14.720
you're single, the conversations you have with partners or family
462
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.960
members and close friends and so on can be really
463
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.519
really rich and wonderful.
464
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:21.759
Merl thank you so much for your time.
465
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.039
You're very welcome, such an honor to be here. I'm
466
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:26.079
so glad we were able to have this conversation.
467
00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:34.200
All right, let's recap take Away one. Either side of
468
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:37.279
this decision is going to come with regrets. There's no
469
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.559
perfect choice. There's just the right choice for you. But
470
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.480
if you want the best of both worlds, remember thirty
471
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:49.720
eight is great. Take Away two. It's very normal to
472
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:53.640
feel stuck about this decision. Merle says a lot of
473
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.359
people she works with will only ever get to about
474
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:58.400
eighty percent certainty about their choice.
475
00:24:59.799 --> 00:24:59.960
Three.
476
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.440
Are you terrified at losing your identity? Worried about growing
477
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.160
old without a full family dinner table? Worries are a
478
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:11.640
natural part of the decision process, But remember there are
479
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.319
no guarantees, so seek out data, fine rom models to
480
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:19.720
help you make an unformed decision. Take Away four. Yes,
481
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.400
you can compromise. If one person in a relationship is
482
00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.000
leaning towards parenthood and the other is leaning towards child free,
483
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.440
talk about it and keep talking about it to see
484
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.359
where you might meet in the middle instead of jumping
485
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:34.759
right to breaking up. Take Away five. You're allowed to
486
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:38.839
change your mind and your path when necessary. Raise a
487
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.319
little one on your own, be child free with a spouse,
488
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.799
Make the choice that is right for you and only you.
489
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.039
That was reporter Andy Tagle, and that's our show. Hey,
490
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:53.799
by the way, If you love Life Kit and you
491
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.480
want it to be even easier to listen to with
492
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.319
curated playlists on popular Life Kit topics like sleep, personal finances,
493
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:04.000
sign up for life Kit Plus. You can find out
494
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.799
more at plus dot NPR dot org slash Lifekit. This
495
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.720
episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. Our
496
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.880
digital editor is Malika Garib and our visuals editor is c. J. Rikolon.
497
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:19.400
Megan Kaine is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan
498
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:22.559
is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire
499
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:26.880
Marie Schneider and Sylvia Douglas. Engineering support comes from Niche Highness.
500
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.039
I'm Mariel Sagara. Thanks for listening.