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Hey there, it's Nicole Harlow.
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Welcome back to Lead Better Podcast.
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Quick question before we start.
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How much time did you spend last week building a treatment plan from scratch for a patient with a really common condition?
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Yeah, today's guest has some thoughts about that very thing.
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Jordan Robertson is a naturopathic doctor and the founder of The Confident Clinician.
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It's a membership that gives integrative practitioners the research, the how, and an AI-powered knowledge base built from years of expert calls.
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We get into why every patient is a unique snowflake is quietly eating your week, and the Netflix test for boundaries has been living rent-free in my head ever since I read it.
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Plus, Jordan sold her clinic two weeks before we hit record.
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So you get to hear how she built a practice that ran without her for three years and why she handed it off while she it was still thriving.
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Okay, let's get into it.
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Hey Jordan, I'm so excited to have you on the show today.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Okay, so I want to start with something I'm very curious about.
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I would love to hear the origin story of the confident clinician.
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Like, because you were a clinic owner prior to starting this company, like what was the thing that happened that you were like, was this a series of twists and turns, or was it like a very clear, like labeled, like I have to make this company?
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You know, when I started my clinical practice, you know, when I graduated, I didn't really feel like I belonged in the profession.
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I felt like a bit black sheep.
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I felt a bit like on the outside.
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I came from a very evidence-based background.
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I immediately, like the moment I graduated, started teaching research and integrative medicine at a Canadian university.
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I wrote a course for them and built a course around how to read research and integrative medicine.
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And I was only 27 at the time.
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And so I, but I never felt like I really fed in because when I was in school, there were a lot of other ideas and beliefs around medicine that really just were not in alignment.
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So truthfully, when I graduated, I kind of shut out a good proportion of my profession.
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I didn't really talk to anybody.
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I didn't really converse with anybody.
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I didn't go to conferences.
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I really kept myself and was very insular in my own practice and teaching at the university.
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I finally one day decided that I was going to put my name in the ring to teach at a conference.
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I was kind of tired of seeing the same names and faces all the time.
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I was tired of doing my own continuing education that had like no references in the slide deck where someone was just talking from like their personal experience and not referencing any medical literature whatsoever.
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So I put my name in the ring to speak at a major conference in Canada, was selected to speak and spoke.
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And that was like a really defining moment for me because the reception in the audience was, I'll say mixed, but like positive mixed.
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Um, people were blown away with how much research there actually was on what we do.
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And that really started this seed of like, it's not really fair that like I have all this knowledge or that some great clinicians have all this knowledge.
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And it's living in their individual practices, and it's not somewhere that any naturopathic doctor could look up.
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Right.
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Like, brand new grads are taught this story that they have to practice for 25 years before they're going to be experienced enough to feel good in their day-to-day work.
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And like no other practitioner practices like that.
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We should feel like we have resources at our disposal.
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So, fast forward, that turned into the confident clinician, but it really started with me teaching, you know, very small groups of clinicians how to be more savvy with evidence, how to think about clinical decision making, and me sharing like my resources with groups of people so they could feel better about the work they do.
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But then that amassed eventually into this like large system that we've built at TCC over the last six years.
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Can you talk us through like what actually is TCC?
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Right.
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It's like what what are the components of it?
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So I've tried to pull like the best of all the worlds, right?
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So if you're in medicine, you're very familiar with up to date.
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We're very familiar with how uh resourceful that can be in the moment when we need to make a decision about a patient.
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It walks you through all the available solutions, all the available lab tests, and how to think through decision making from a pharmacological perspective.
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We also know as integrative practitioners, there's almost no data on up-to-date about nutrition or supplements or anything else, really.
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But it's a beautiful resource.
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It's just very text-heavy, but it gives you like a thing that you can read if you're trying to understand how to work with your patient.
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We then also understand that clinicians learn best through uh sharing, through listening, through being able to ask and answer questions, through hearing experts actually be able to share the how of medicine.
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So rather than just reading what you should do, we also wanted to layer in this concept of like, well, how do you put this into practice?
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And we've hired more than 200 NDs to actually walk you through the how.
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How do you talk to your patient who has asthma?
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How do you work with patients with young babies?
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How do you talk to a patient with eczema and help them actually make the changes they need to make in their life based on the evidence?
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And so TCC actually delivers all of its content live the first time.
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You can go to calls lots of times during the month to listen to experts, to ask questions, get answers like in real time.
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And then when AI was born, we realized that we actually could take it all one step further.
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We've recorded every conversation, every question, every slag deck, every study we've read in the last seven years, and used that to build a knowledge base that now you can converse with the profession about your patients.
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You can ask questions.
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Why didn't my treatment plan work?
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I prescribed zinc for acne and my patient didn't get any better, or they got super nauseous and now I don't know what to do.
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And it actually gives you real-time answers and how we would approach patient care based on our like large knowledge base from all of our experts and all of the work we've pulled together.
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So when someone like unlocks a TCC membership and they go in the door, they suddenly have a resource that they've never had in practice before where they can read how to take care of their patient regardless of the condition that they've come in with.
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There's the how component.
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So you get to inherit the confidence and experience of others, even if you're brand new.
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But then also, like in the moment, if you're dying and you don't know what to do with your patient, you can actually dialogue with our work and we'll give you the support like in six seconds for how to treat your patient.
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Well, I saw that because like it's it can help them kind of like create like treatment plans and things like that, or is it just for the research side of it?
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Yeah, and that's a great question because in the past you almost could get one or the other, right?
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So I was thinking, yeah, I know some other tools are kind of one or the other.
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Yeah.
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So either it was like a paper, and then you're like, well, how do I actually use this and practice?
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Yeah, what's the actual application that is relevant to my patients?
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Right.
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And what one paper never does well is tell you, well, does it replace what you used to do?
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Is this better than what we used to do?
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And that's one of the things we've struggled with the most in naturopathic medicine is that without care guidelines, every new paper is like, wait, what?
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Like, do we add this?
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Do we take something away?
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So with this reservoir that we've built of knowledge, we now can say, well, this is what we do right now.
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And when new research comes in, we can actually compare it to what we currently offer and say, yeah, you know what, this new supplement blows the water or like it throws everything out of the water.
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Or, you know what, this new thing, it's not any better than what we did last year.
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So, like, let's stick to our guns.
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Like, we've got great solutions here.
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But in the past, you could read one paper and then practitioners would have no idea whether or not it should or shouldn't be added.
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On the flip side, we had a lot of expert opinion and a lot of expert sharing in the industry that was often unreferenced or it was from their head and it was about their clinical experience, but they didn't do a good job of rooting it in like the standards of care.
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So, you know, Dr.
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So-and-so would have a highly opinionated answer about how to treat H.
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pylori, but they would never talk about what that the medical doctors were doing or how what we offered compared to antibiotics or anything else.
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And that leaves clinicians in this really precarious position where they're trying to like almost uh argue or have to defend what it is that they do because now our decision making is not really rooted in evidence.
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So we tried to bring those two things together where we're like, here's the research, but also here's the like how and expertly, how do you put this in your practice so that you feel super confident about it and also know that there's research to back up what we do.
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I'm just like, I'm so in awe of like what you put together because it really doesn't exist anywhere else.
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And it's like, you know, I just think it's such a cool resource for practitioners who are able to like the way that you've been able to integrate AI with it as well is like for me, just like super cool.
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So like kudos to you because like I just feel like you know, you've done an amazing job.
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Um, and I kind of want to like switch a little bit because I was looking at your Instagram, and that's what I like to do when I'm preparing for these interviews, like and I'm putting my questions together.
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I always like to go to like someone's Instagram and just see like what are some things that you said that kind of like I'm curious about.
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I'd like to go a little bit deeper on.
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And so I'm gonna read you out.
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This is something on a caption of one of your recent posts, and it says, Everybody wants more patients.
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Have you actually tried having them?
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And I was like, that is so in line with like how I work with clients as well.
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And you said it's a lot of work when you're unsupported.
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And so my question for you is what do you see as the piece or pieces of support that you feel like practitioners are missing when it comes to actually having more patients, right?
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And you can speak to this as a clinic owner as well, right?
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So you have like boost on the ground knowledge of this part, you know.
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Yeah, I I I'm glad that you picked that one out.
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I like that one because you know, we all like say or we aspire to be someone else or something else, but then we rarely have the behaviors that that person or that version of ourselves would actually have.
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It's like we'll say, well, when I get busy, I'll get a VA, or when I get super busy, then I'll get an AI scribe for my medical appointments.
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I don't want to invest in that, but I'll get that when I, you know, end up with 20 new patients a month.
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The problem is that those very tools are the things that allow you to be that busy or to be that person who's confident enough to be like like that future version of yourself.
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And so quite often clinicians are like waiting until they get busy to invest in the support that they need to get busy.
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But they envision that, like, oh, when I get busy, then am I gonna like unlock all of this financial capability and I'll be so swamped.
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I'll need, you know, help with my time management.
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But you need that today, actually.
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So to me, the things that like are the biggest time drain for clinicians is research.
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Like, and that's obviously where we step in.
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Yeah, that we've really um made uh integrative practitioners seem like a hero because they spend so much time preparing their patient plans and and sort of idolizing that aspect of our work, I think keeps a lot of clinicians stuck because they end up doing a lot of tasks for patients that are not medical tasks or not doctor tasks.
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I always say if your patient asks you what kind of sunscreen they should get, like we've lost the plot, right?
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Like you're a doctor, they can look that up.
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You don't need to because what happens is like their their naturopathic doctor will say, you know what, I don't know.
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Let me look that up for you.
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And now, like, you're on Amazon trying to find a natural sunscreen for you.
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Like, come on.
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But we get sucked into this idea that we need to like answer every question and individualize every plan in a way that really drains resource from the practitioner.
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And we've given practitioners this idea that every patient needs such a unique plan that you could never be supported in doing research for your practice.
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And so sometimes when we say, we will tell you the how to treat gout, like we've written it all down for you.
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They're like, Yeah, but what about my patient with gout?
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And like, will they still have gout?
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Like the answer is right here.
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You don't have to look anywhere else.
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And they're like, Yeah, but my patient's special or they need a unique plan.
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And like, no, they don't.
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Oh, why do you think practitioners feel like they need to kind of reinvent their wheel for every single?
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Is this like a I don't know, is this like a like an over-delivering people pleasing?
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Like, I know it's gonna be slightly different for everyone, but do you see any patterns that come up with practitioners?
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I think there's definitely like a perfectionism people pleasing component for sure.
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And sometimes if practitioners don't feel worth the price of admission, like we have to charge a lot because it's expensive to see private integrative medicine.
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But then if the practitioner doesn't really own that value, they will overdeliver and they will like all of a sudden want to like do everything for the patient to try and justify the fees.
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So I do think there's a component that that is there.
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I also think that during the schooling of a lot of integrative medicine practitioners, we do talk a lot about root cause medicine.
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We do talk a lot about like the uniqueness of every patient.
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And as a statistician, like that's that is like the demise of good clinical decision making because that makes us assume that, like, if a if something works in 80% of patients with gout, please try that first.
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Like, why would we individualize it beyond that?
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Individualized medicine isn't about choosing 20 unique supplements for your patient, it's about helping your patient apply the guidelines to their individual life.
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So the gout guidelines say XYZ, and we say, okay, well, you work shifts.
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So how are we gonna help you eat this way?
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Or sounds like walking is better than swimming for you.
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You can pick one or the other.
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That's individualized medicine, not saying you have gout because you like purple turtlenecks and butterflies and you're allergic to dogs.
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And so I'm gonna give you this special, unique protocol.
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But many clinicians are trained to think that way about their patients rather than viewing it like in statistical, like in a statistical lens.
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Um, it makes clinical decision making like impassable if we imagine everyone's a snowflake.
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Like not everyone's a snowflake.
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We actually can treat patients almost the same with minor tweaks because of their life, not because of like their medical condition.
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I think this is really important what you're saying.
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And it's it's kind of making me like where I'm seeing it from my vantage point is like having been in the marketing side and written a lot of copy for naturopathic doctors and integrative doctors over the years, reviewed a lot of that copy and social media, et cetera, et cetera.
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It's part of like the sales message too.
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It's this pervasive sales message of just like, hey, we're different than conventional docs because it's gonna be unique to you.
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I am gonna spend the time.
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So it's like, I feel like it's it's the combining of all of these things, right?
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Including like a practitioner feeling then like just really hamstrung by their own messaging around like, I'm gonna get to your root cause of what's so unique to you.
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So then every, and it's like I know this from the practitioners that I work with, just like feeling into like, okay, let's go through your week and talk through like where are you spending your time?
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Oh, I'm spending my time creating my treatment plans.
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Oh, I do something different for every single person.
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I'm taking it into Canva and I'm putting in the blocks individually.
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It's not even just the, you know, where you your uh expertise is coming from the research side of it.
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And I'm thinking from the operation side that I still have a ton of clients that are are building out their treatment plans just like individually for each person.
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So it's just like I love that we're like getting here in this conversation, right?
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Where it's just like there's a few of these different factors coming through, you know, and I think that that's like a really important conversation that we need to be having for practitioners around like you don't have to feel like you need to reinvent the wheel for every single patient.
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No, because actually patients kind of to earn your to earn your fee, right?
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Like to charge what you're worth.
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Yeah.
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Like patients are asking to get better, they're not asking for a unique plan, they're asking to get better.
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And truthfully, like clinical decision making based on statistics is like betting like on like horse racing, right?
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And I always use this example.
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If we had a very strong horse that has won many, many, many races and is super strong and is well fed and is well slapped in the jockey, super experienced in lane one.
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And in lane two, we have a horse who has never won a race.
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Actually, he's this is his first race ever, you know.
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But he, but his name is the same as your grandma, right?
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And so we have like a forehand.
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I can make this metaphor.
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I can take this metaphor like super far.
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But like even always said, okay, put all your money on one of these two horses, which one are you gonna pick?
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And everyone bets on the faster horse, right?
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They're like, well, this guy's guaranteed to win.
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Like, why would we bet on him?
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Like, I know Henrietta is super cute, but she's not gonna win.
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Yeah, and quite often when we think about clinical decision making and integrative medicine, we bet on Henrietta often.
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Or we ask the patient, like, which one do you want?
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The patient doesn't actually always have the context to say this horse has never run a race before.
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We've never studied it in a patient like you before.
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We have a tried and true solution right here.
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I don't care that it's like the same name as your grandma.
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We have a solution that literally works every single time.
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Why wouldn't we start there?
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So when we think about like in terms of like how what patients are actually asking for, they're asking to get better, they're asking to be heard a long appointment that gives them a treatment plan that's guaranteed to work is what they're asking for.
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Yeah.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:35.440
What we imagine that they're asking for in being heard and having it work is that a unique secret magical solution must be hidden somewhere that we have to find for them to get better.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:42.640
And that I must like over deliver and individualize this treatment experience for them to again justify the fees.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:42.880
Yeah.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.240
But that's not what they're asking for.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.519
They're asking just to get better.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.240
And if we knew something worked nine out of 10 times, we should reach for it every time.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:19:04.640
But when we don't have that information housed anywhere, now practitioners are left to like do a free webinar from a supplement company and then they're like, oh, maybe I'll try that with my patients, or they read one paper and they're like, Oh, maybe I'll try that with my patients.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:10.960
Our goal was that you could stop like feeling that way about patient care and actually have the answer.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.640
Which one is the stronger horse?
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.160
We actually laid it out for you.
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:15.440
You just have to choose it.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.799
I want to talk about something kind of similar, but a little bit different, and that's boundaries.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:30.720
You, another thing you said, and I didn't write this down exactly, but it was just from the last couple of days, and everybody not following Jordan, you have to follow her because she's got some really nice like prowls of wisdom.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:41.920
It was something along the lines of you have people in your membership that ask you for to extend their annual payment by a couple weeks because they were sick, for example.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:57.279
And what you said, which is living rent-free in my head now, is if you had like a couple nice days in the summer, would you email Netflix and say, hey, I'd like a couple week extension because I haven't been able to watch as many movies as I normally do?
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.039
And it really made me think about boundaries and practitioners.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:06.079
And so, you know, I guess I'm curious from your perspective personally as well.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:19.599
Like, what are some things that you feel like practitioners should be thinking about in terms of like developing good boundaries with their patients and maybe some things that you've had to learn along the hard way along the way too?
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:30.559
Yeah, and I definitely like I've you know lived a thousand lives in this industry, and I've like, you know, had many, many, many lessons, we'll call them, positive lessons.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:44.000
Um, but I think what it comes down to, and it's interesting because we're talking about this inside our community right now, is that you know, clinicians' communication with their patients is maybe the most important part of the entire treatment process.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:54.720
I would say like we're the only, or one of the only medical sub-specialties in integrative medicine where we like hand the patient the knife and they have to go home and do their own surgery.
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:55.119
Right.
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:55.839
Yes, yes.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:56.079
Right.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:05.519
So like when you go see your orthopedic surgeon, you have knee pain, you lie down, they cut your knee open, they fix it for you, and you go home and you didn't have to comply at all, right?
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:06.559
You just lied there.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.400
Um, and their bedside manager can be shit and it doesn't matter because the interaction is over.
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:25.920
When you're, you know, surgically fixing someone's nutrition or their entire life or their behavior change, we're handing them the knife and we're saying, go home, like please, please do this surgery.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:27.200
Good luck.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:40.400
And so the communication and the strategy that we use to help patients build self-confidence, self-efficacy, maintain motivation like outside of the appointment really comes down to super clear communication.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:48.400
What I think happens with clinician boundaries is that we don't feel confident setting that tone at the very beginning of the appointment.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:58.799
Where truly, like when you start working with a new vendor or a new company and they sit you down, they don't say, Hey, you can email me anytime you want, and I'll answer right away.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.440
Or you know what?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.240
My cell phone number, you just call me, and if I'm sleeping, I'll get up, right?
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.680
Like it's very clear how we work with other companies, they have operating hours, they have customer service hotline.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.160
You cannot talk to the owner at Netflix, right?
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:14.799
Like ever.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:15.279
Ever.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:23.680
It's very clear how we work with other companies, but medicine feels always so personal, and our own businesses, everything feels so personal.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:34.000
And we don't do a good job of establishing this is my company, this is how my company operates, this is how you interact with my company, this is the fees for dealing with my company.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:39.039
And what that allows for is too much uh gray, right?
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:52.319
So that when a situation does arise, like a cancellation or someone is having an ask that actually falls outside the scope of what they've asked for, we don't actually have a huge leg to stand on because we've never discussed it.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:02.400
And so we often will bend to those patient asks or to whatever the asks are, bend our own policies because we haven't been super clear at the beginning.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:09.119
And I think if we can more assertively, as clinicians, feel confident to say, these are my practice hours.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:14.319
I don't answer patient emails, there are no questions that can be answered outside of an appointment.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.960
This appointment time was reserved just for you.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.359
And if you don't use it for whatever reason, you're going to pay for it.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.000
But having the confidence to do that actually comes almost from like our entire profession developing that confidence.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:42.559
Because, you know, if you're the only person on the block who charges this much per hour and has a cancellation policy, it's easy to feel like you're being like uber aggressive when actually you're just setting strong like business boundaries that every business has.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:43.440
Right.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:44.799
I love that.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.240
I want to get a little bit more personal just for our last question.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:56.319
And I want to know a little bit more about like right now, what is your role in your clinic and how is it different than TCC?
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.559
And kind of like, what is your week look like?
00:23:58.640 --> 00:23:58.799
Right.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.039
Or do you split it like 50-50?
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.319
Like uh, and I guess I'm kind of curious too.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.640
Around like, does your role inside of the clinic support a different side of yourself?
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:13.279
And then TCC is another, you know, like one's like right brain, left brain.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.720
How does it stack up in your life, your week?
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.680
So this is a really timely question because I controlled my clinic.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:22.960
Oh my god.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.599
Yeah.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:25.920
So it happened two weeks ago.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:27.920
So it's oh my god, gosh.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.000
But I can answer actually from both sides.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:43.359
So, um, and the two women who have taken over uh the practice, they I always love to move along from a role or from an opportunity when everything is still thriving.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:25:04.079
Um, I moved um along from the university and I passed my teaching uh post to another naturopathic doctor when I still really liked it, the students still really liked it, but I could see that someone else was actually going to be able to take it places that I couldn't any longer because I didn't have the time or the ability to invest anymore in that role.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.920
And I felt the same about the clinic.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.720
My clinic has been an amazing opportunity.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:15.440
It's been something that obviously was like blood, sweat, tears, and more tears over the last uh 15 years.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.599
I had six um naturopathic doctor associates in the practice.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:43.279
And when I stopped practicing three years ago, they took my entire caseload and they've carried the community and the like passion and vision of the clinic on for the last three years, even without me their day-to-day, which was actually like a sort of beautiful testament to the admin team and to the clinicians themselves and even our patient community, actually, that everything kept flowing uh without me.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:47.200
So I was a hands-off owner for the last three years.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:56.559
But I could see that the next step for the clinic really required someone to be physically in the building more often to actually be able to invest.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:12.559
And I truly believe that having an owner operator, meaning that someone sees patients in the practice, but also um is the is the leader, was probably going to help drive the clinic forward more than my like off-site uh role that I currently had.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.119
So the two women that have taken it over are, you know, going to absolutely thrive.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.319
The entire team of clinicians went with them.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.039
Um and so I'm so excited for like their new chapter.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:37.119
But it's been it's really the first week in my life that I haven't had to consider uh that role because I was splitting, you know, thinking about um where I needed to think and where what needed my time and attention.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:45.200
And truly, like as a practice owner, like the systems that we had built, I could be absent for a month and the clinic would thrive.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.920
But clinic ownership, you know, when the clinic did need me, they needed me a lot and they needed me five minutes ago, right?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:27:06.000
The the demand in that in that way was high and unexpected when it was happening, but the day-to-day actually was so smooth because we had built such great systems and had such a great team.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:07.119
That's amazing.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:08.880
And I is so timely that I asked this.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:11.519
It literally just happened.
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:12.640
Congratulations.
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:14.240
That's really exciting to hear.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.559
And so, what's next for you?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:23.440
Well, I will say TCC has been uh like 120% full-time role for the last five years.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:28.960
Um, and so I'm not sure that I've noticed any additional free time in this.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:36.240
Um however, um, our goals in TCC are large.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:44.880
We want to be, you know, known as the like absolute, you know, must-have practice resource for naturopathic and integrative doctors.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:59.039
And we want to build that sort of status in our community that when clinicians have opted in, that they have dedicated, you know, their time and their expertise to our system, that we're acknowledging that actually in a deeper way.
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:21.440
So we're actually building a certification program inside the competent clinician to, you know, have clinicians be able to demonstrate that they're not only a member, but they also meet our guidelines for clinical competency for the absolute, like highest level practitioner in North America so that we can confidently refer patients to practitioners who have demonstrated this.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.799
Um, so it's launching uh over the next couple of months.
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.200
Our first sort of mandatory module is launching in November.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:38.799
And it is a behavior change expertise program where we're actually going to help train clinicians in motivational interviewing and how to be a behavior change specialist.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:46.079
You know, I think most clinicians are noticing that we have to migrate away from like knowledge gatekeepers, right?
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.079
Like that that's not our role any longer.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:56.079
People used to come to us to like learn things, and now they come to us having learned a million things, but what they need is discernment.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:56.640
Strategy.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:57.359
Yeah.
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:02.160
And like uh, you know, being able to like stay connected to their plan.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:11.440
If we have the skills in interviewing and um, you know, in strategy and behavior change, we won't survive the AI age.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.359
And I don't say that to me fatalistic.
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:15.359
I actually think we required these skills before.
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:17.759
We could just get away without them before.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.279
Now it's mandatory.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:23.279
And so we've made it a mandatory component of our certification process.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.720
And so that launches in November, which we're really excited about.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:27.599
Amazing.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.359
Jordan, how can people find out about you and get connected?
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.559
Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm a prolific Instagrammer.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.480
Uh, that's a great place to start.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:37.519
So at Dr.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:38.640
Jordan N D.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:46.720
The confident clinician also has a great uh Instagram page where we share like research tidbits and how to get uh up to date quickly.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:55.519
It's also a great place to access some of our freebies, like our five-day free trial, where you can like jump in, you get access to four medical modules right out of the gate.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:04.640
And then, and they're ones people like, like ADHD and things that like we're uh, you know, pretty excited about in integrative medicine, but you also get access to our AI search bar.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:11.039
And so you can feel what it feels like to have the power of us behind you in your clinical day.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.359
Um, you can get all of that information on the confident clinicians Instagram page.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:17.279
Um, those are really the two best places.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:18.799
That's where we hang out the most.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.440
And I have that, you know, I attest to the fact that I love your Instagram.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:29.440
I think you've got one of the better Instagrams out there, and you're one of my most reposted accounts.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:34.960
And I'm not even a clinician, but I just love, I think there's a lot of actionable stuff for myself as a business owner.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:41.039
And then also things that I like to share with my clinician uh clients that I work with too.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.359
So I appreciate, you know, in this age, there's a lot of AI slop out there.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.759
We all know that you are keeping it real out there for keeping it real on our Instagram.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:06.799
And yeah, and I think, you know, there's I I love that your the name is the confident clinician because I feel like part of your messaging that I see as somebody who's, you know, following you is uh it's helping me to feel more confident as a business owner too.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:08.640
So I appreciate that about you.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.640
You're an inspiration to me.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.960
And uh guys, go check out Jordan.
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:14.480
Thank you so much for being a guest.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:15.920
Just great so much for having me.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:17.599
All right, bye everybody.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.359
I'll see you on the next episode.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.240
Okay, that's it for this episode.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:34.640
If you're sitting there realizing that patients are coming in just fine, but things are slipping through the cracks behind the scenes, the follow-up, the systems, the back end that's all held together by you and some sticky notes and a prayer.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.799
I've got a few free resources that'll help you see exactly where those gaps are.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.519
They're all linked in the show notes, so just go grab whatever fits you where you're at right now.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.559
Also, come follow me on Instagram too and hang out over there.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:52.079
I share a lot of uh good resources at Nicole.leadbetterhq.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:32:02.160
And if you're past the figure it out myself stage and you just want a team to run the operational side of your practice for you, yay! That's exactly what we do at LeadBetterHQ.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:09.200
We run the operations and intelligence layer behind the practice so that patients you already have don't fall through the cracks, right?
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.319
We we like to make sure that we're working with um what's actually coming in.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.039
So if that's a thing that you've been looking for, book a call with us.
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:18.160
I'd love to chat with you.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.680
The link's in the show notes, and um, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:22.799
I'll see you in the next one.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.599
Bye now.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:01.840
Hey there, it's Nicole Harlow.
00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:03.680
Welcome back to Lead Better Podcast.
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:05.120
Quick question before we start.
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:10.880
How much time did you spend last week building a treatment plan from scratch for a patient with a really common condition?
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:14.800
Yeah, today's guest has some thoughts about that very thing.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:19.280
Jordan Robertson is a naturopathic doctor and the founder of The Confident Clinician.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:26.719
It's a membership that gives integrative practitioners the research, the how, and an AI-powered knowledge base built from years of expert calls.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:36.640
We get into why every patient is a unique snowflake is quietly eating your week, and the Netflix test for boundaries has been living rent-free in my head ever since I read it.
00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.759
Plus, Jordan sold her clinic two weeks before we hit record.
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:46.240
So you get to hear how she built a practice that ran without her for three years and why she handed it off while she it was still thriving.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.399
Okay, let's get into it.
00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:52.000
Hey Jordan, I'm so excited to have you on the show today.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:53.439
I'm so excited to be here.
00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:54.960
Thank you so much for having me.
00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.640
Okay, so I want to start with something I'm very curious about.
00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.359
I would love to hear the origin story of the confident clinician.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:17.120
Like, because you were a clinic owner prior to starting this company, like what was the thing that happened that you were like, was this a series of twists and turns, or was it like a very clear, like labeled, like I have to make this company?
00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:26.480
You know, when I started my clinical practice, you know, when I graduated, I didn't really feel like I belonged in the profession.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:28.400
I felt like a bit black sheep.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.319
I felt a bit like on the outside.
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:34.000
I came from a very evidence-based background.
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:42.159
I immediately, like the moment I graduated, started teaching research and integrative medicine at a Canadian university.
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:46.959
I wrote a course for them and built a course around how to read research and integrative medicine.
00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:49.519
And I was only 27 at the time.
00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:59.040
And so I, but I never felt like I really fed in because when I was in school, there were a lot of other ideas and beliefs around medicine that really just were not in alignment.
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:04.879
So truthfully, when I graduated, I kind of shut out a good proportion of my profession.
00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:06.879
I didn't really talk to anybody.
00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:08.800
I didn't really converse with anybody.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:10.479
I didn't go to conferences.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.800
I really kept myself and was very insular in my own practice and teaching at the university.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:21.759
I finally one day decided that I was going to put my name in the ring to teach at a conference.
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.280
I was kind of tired of seeing the same names and faces all the time.
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:37.520
I was tired of doing my own continuing education that had like no references in the slide deck where someone was just talking from like their personal experience and not referencing any medical literature whatsoever.
00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:44.240
So I put my name in the ring to speak at a major conference in Canada, was selected to speak and spoke.
00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:52.319
And that was like a really defining moment for me because the reception in the audience was, I'll say mixed, but like positive mixed.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:57.599
Um, people were blown away with how much research there actually was on what we do.
00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:05.840
And that really started this seed of like, it's not really fair that like I have all this knowledge or that some great clinicians have all this knowledge.
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:12.319
And it's living in their individual practices, and it's not somewhere that any naturopathic doctor could look up.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:12.719
Right.
00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:22.080
Like, brand new grads are taught this story that they have to practice for 25 years before they're going to be experienced enough to feel good in their day-to-day work.
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:24.800
And like no other practitioner practices like that.
00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:27.919
We should feel like we have resources at our disposal.
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:45.599
So, fast forward, that turned into the confident clinician, but it really started with me teaching, you know, very small groups of clinicians how to be more savvy with evidence, how to think about clinical decision making, and me sharing like my resources with groups of people so they could feel better about the work they do.
00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:53.199
But then that amassed eventually into this like large system that we've built at TCC over the last six years.
00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.400
Can you talk us through like what actually is TCC?
00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:56.639
Right.
00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:59.520
It's like what what are the components of it?
00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:03.439
So I've tried to pull like the best of all the worlds, right?
00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.759
So if you're in medicine, you're very familiar with up to date.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:14.800
We're very familiar with how uh resourceful that can be in the moment when we need to make a decision about a patient.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:23.199
It walks you through all the available solutions, all the available lab tests, and how to think through decision making from a pharmacological perspective.
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:30.079
We also know as integrative practitioners, there's almost no data on up-to-date about nutrition or supplements or anything else, really.
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:31.439
But it's a beautiful resource.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:38.720
It's just very text-heavy, but it gives you like a thing that you can read if you're trying to understand how to work with your patient.
00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:50.959
We then also understand that clinicians learn best through uh sharing, through listening, through being able to ask and answer questions, through hearing experts actually be able to share the how of medicine.
00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.839
So rather than just reading what you should do, we also wanted to layer in this concept of like, well, how do you put this into practice?
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:02.399
And we've hired more than 200 NDs to actually walk you through the how.
00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:04.959
How do you talk to your patient who has asthma?
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.360
How do you work with patients with young babies?
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:14.480
How do you talk to a patient with eczema and help them actually make the changes they need to make in their life based on the evidence?
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.800
And so TCC actually delivers all of its content live the first time.
00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:27.439
You can go to calls lots of times during the month to listen to experts, to ask questions, get answers like in real time.
00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:33.279
And then when AI was born, we realized that we actually could take it all one step further.
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:46.959
We've recorded every conversation, every question, every slag deck, every study we've read in the last seven years, and used that to build a knowledge base that now you can converse with the profession about your patients.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:48.160
You can ask questions.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:50.079
Why didn't my treatment plan work?
00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.680
I prescribed zinc for acne and my patient didn't get any better, or they got super nauseous and now I don't know what to do.
00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:05.439
And it actually gives you real-time answers and how we would approach patient care based on our like large knowledge base from all of our experts and all of the work we've pulled together.
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:19.120
So when someone like unlocks a TCC membership and they go in the door, they suddenly have a resource that they've never had in practice before where they can read how to take care of their patient regardless of the condition that they've come in with.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:20.959
There's the how component.
00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:26.800
So you get to inherit the confidence and experience of others, even if you're brand new.
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:36.160
But then also, like in the moment, if you're dying and you don't know what to do with your patient, you can actually dialogue with our work and we'll give you the support like in six seconds for how to treat your patient.
00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:44.319
Well, I saw that because like it's it can help them kind of like create like treatment plans and things like that, or is it just for the research side of it?
00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.439
Yeah, and that's a great question because in the past you almost could get one or the other, right?
00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.639
So I was thinking, yeah, I know some other tools are kind of one or the other.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.040
Yeah.
00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:57.519
So either it was like a paper, and then you're like, well, how do I actually use this and practice?
00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.680
Yeah, what's the actual application that is relevant to my patients?
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.240
Right.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:07.519
And what one paper never does well is tell you, well, does it replace what you used to do?
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:09.839
Is this better than what we used to do?
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:17.600
And that's one of the things we've struggled with the most in naturopathic medicine is that without care guidelines, every new paper is like, wait, what?
00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:18.720
Like, do we add this?
00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:20.560
Do we take something away?
00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:26.959
So with this reservoir that we've built of knowledge, we now can say, well, this is what we do right now.
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:36.639
And when new research comes in, we can actually compare it to what we currently offer and say, yeah, you know what, this new supplement blows the water or like it throws everything out of the water.
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Or, you know what, this new thing, it's not any better than what we did last year.
00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:42.879
So, like, let's stick to our guns.
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Like, we've got great solutions here.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:52.160
But in the past, you could read one paper and then practitioners would have no idea whether or not it should or shouldn't be added.
00:07:52.399 --> 00:08:08.240
On the flip side, we had a lot of expert opinion and a lot of expert sharing in the industry that was often unreferenced or it was from their head and it was about their clinical experience, but they didn't do a good job of rooting it in like the standards of care.
00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:09.439
So, you know, Dr.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.360
So-and-so would have a highly opinionated answer about how to treat H.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:22.480
pylori, but they would never talk about what that the medical doctors were doing or how what we offered compared to antibiotics or anything else.
00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:35.440
And that leaves clinicians in this really precarious position where they're trying to like almost uh argue or have to defend what it is that they do because now our decision making is not really rooted in evidence.
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:49.919
So we tried to bring those two things together where we're like, here's the research, but also here's the like how and expertly, how do you put this in your practice so that you feel super confident about it and also know that there's research to back up what we do.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:56.240
I'm just like, I'm so in awe of like what you put together because it really doesn't exist anywhere else.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:09.519
And it's like, you know, I just think it's such a cool resource for practitioners who are able to like the way that you've been able to integrate AI with it as well is like for me, just like super cool.
00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:14.480
So like kudos to you because like I just feel like you know, you've done an amazing job.
00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:25.440
Um, and I kind of want to like switch a little bit because I was looking at your Instagram, and that's what I like to do when I'm preparing for these interviews, like and I'm putting my questions together.
00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:31.679
I always like to go to like someone's Instagram and just see like what are some things that you said that kind of like I'm curious about.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.120
I'd like to go a little bit deeper on.
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:34.320
And so I'm gonna read you out.
00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:39.840
This is something on a caption of one of your recent posts, and it says, Everybody wants more patients.
00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.639
Have you actually tried having them?
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:49.120
And I was like, that is so in line with like how I work with clients as well.
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.639
And you said it's a lot of work when you're unsupported.
00:09:52.799 --> 00:10:03.600
And so my question for you is what do you see as the piece or pieces of support that you feel like practitioners are missing when it comes to actually having more patients, right?
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:06.480
And you can speak to this as a clinic owner as well, right?
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:10.320
So you have like boost on the ground knowledge of this part, you know.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.080
Yeah, I I I'm glad that you picked that one out.
00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:28.080
I like that one because you know, we all like say or we aspire to be someone else or something else, but then we rarely have the behaviors that that person or that version of ourselves would actually have.
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:36.000
It's like we'll say, well, when I get busy, I'll get a VA, or when I get super busy, then I'll get an AI scribe for my medical appointments.
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:42.080
I don't want to invest in that, but I'll get that when I, you know, end up with 20 new patients a month.
00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:55.200
The problem is that those very tools are the things that allow you to be that busy or to be that person who's confident enough to be like like that future version of yourself.
00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:04.320
And so quite often clinicians are like waiting until they get busy to invest in the support that they need to get busy.
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:12.159
But they envision that, like, oh, when I get busy, then am I gonna like unlock all of this financial capability and I'll be so swamped.
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:14.480
I'll need, you know, help with my time management.
00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:16.799
But you need that today, actually.
00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:21.840
So to me, the things that like are the biggest time drain for clinicians is research.
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.159
Like, and that's obviously where we step in.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:45.679
Yeah, that we've really um made uh integrative practitioners seem like a hero because they spend so much time preparing their patient plans and and sort of idolizing that aspect of our work, I think keeps a lot of clinicians stuck because they end up doing a lot of tasks for patients that are not medical tasks or not doctor tasks.
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:51.279
I always say if your patient asks you what kind of sunscreen they should get, like we've lost the plot, right?
00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.440
Like you're a doctor, they can look that up.
00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:58.399
You don't need to because what happens is like their their naturopathic doctor will say, you know what, I don't know.
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.080
Let me look that up for you.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:04.080
And now, like, you're on Amazon trying to find a natural sunscreen for you.
00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:05.679
Like, come on.
00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:18.320
But we get sucked into this idea that we need to like answer every question and individualize every plan in a way that really drains resource from the practitioner.
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:26.639
And we've given practitioners this idea that every patient needs such a unique plan that you could never be supported in doing research for your practice.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:32.720
And so sometimes when we say, we will tell you the how to treat gout, like we've written it all down for you.
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.600
They're like, Yeah, but what about my patient with gout?
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:37.679
And like, will they still have gout?
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:38.799
Like the answer is right here.
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:40.000
You don't have to look anywhere else.
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.039
And they're like, Yeah, but my patient's special or they need a unique plan.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:44.879
And like, no, they don't.
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:50.480
Oh, why do you think practitioners feel like they need to kind of reinvent their wheel for every single?
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:56.879
Is this like a I don't know, is this like a like an over-delivering people pleasing?
00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:01.600
Like, I know it's gonna be slightly different for everyone, but do you see any patterns that come up with practitioners?
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.919
I think there's definitely like a perfectionism people pleasing component for sure.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:15.759
And sometimes if practitioners don't feel worth the price of admission, like we have to charge a lot because it's expensive to see private integrative medicine.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:26.159
But then if the practitioner doesn't really own that value, they will overdeliver and they will like all of a sudden want to like do everything for the patient to try and justify the fees.
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.200
So I do think there's a component that that is there.
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:36.879
I also think that during the schooling of a lot of integrative medicine practitioners, we do talk a lot about root cause medicine.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:40.639
We do talk a lot about like the uniqueness of every patient.
00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:54.720
And as a statistician, like that's that is like the demise of good clinical decision making because that makes us assume that, like, if a if something works in 80% of patients with gout, please try that first.
00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:57.919
Like, why would we individualize it beyond that?
00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:09.759
Individualized medicine isn't about choosing 20 unique supplements for your patient, it's about helping your patient apply the guidelines to their individual life.
00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:14.720
So the gout guidelines say XYZ, and we say, okay, well, you work shifts.
00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:17.440
So how are we gonna help you eat this way?
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.799
Or sounds like walking is better than swimming for you.
00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:22.480
You can pick one or the other.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:30.879
That's individualized medicine, not saying you have gout because you like purple turtlenecks and butterflies and you're allergic to dogs.
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.679
And so I'm gonna give you this special, unique protocol.
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:42.240
But many clinicians are trained to think that way about their patients rather than viewing it like in statistical, like in a statistical lens.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:47.519
Um, it makes clinical decision making like impassable if we imagine everyone's a snowflake.
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.600
Like not everyone's a snowflake.
00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:57.440
We actually can treat patients almost the same with minor tweaks because of their life, not because of like their medical condition.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:59.840
I think this is really important what you're saying.
00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:14.320
And it's it's kind of making me like where I'm seeing it from my vantage point is like having been in the marketing side and written a lot of copy for naturopathic doctors and integrative doctors over the years, reviewed a lot of that copy and social media, et cetera, et cetera.
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.919
It's part of like the sales message too.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:25.919
It's this pervasive sales message of just like, hey, we're different than conventional docs because it's gonna be unique to you.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:27.600
I am gonna spend the time.
00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:33.279
So it's like, I feel like it's it's the combining of all of these things, right?
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:44.080
Including like a practitioner feeling then like just really hamstrung by their own messaging around like, I'm gonna get to your root cause of what's so unique to you.
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:52.399
So then every, and it's like I know this from the practitioners that I work with, just like feeling into like, okay, let's go through your week and talk through like where are you spending your time?
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:54.559
Oh, I'm spending my time creating my treatment plans.
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.759
Oh, I do something different for every single person.
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:03.200
I'm taking it into Canva and I'm putting in the blocks individually.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:08.559
It's not even just the, you know, where you your uh expertise is coming from the research side of it.
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:18.399
And I'm thinking from the operation side that I still have a ton of clients that are are building out their treatment plans just like individually for each person.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.440
So it's just like I love that we're like getting here in this conversation, right?
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:38.320
Where it's just like there's a few of these different factors coming through, you know, and I think that that's like a really important conversation that we need to be having for practitioners around like you don't have to feel like you need to reinvent the wheel for every single patient.
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:43.039
No, because actually patients kind of to earn your to earn your fee, right?
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:44.799
Like to charge what you're worth.
00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:45.279
Yeah.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:51.039
Like patients are asking to get better, they're not asking for a unique plan, they're asking to get better.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:57.200
And truthfully, like clinical decision making based on statistics is like betting like on like horse racing, right?
00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:58.480
And I always use this example.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:09.839
If we had a very strong horse that has won many, many, many races and is super strong and is well fed and is well slapped in the jockey, super experienced in lane one.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.599
And in lane two, we have a horse who has never won a race.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.559
Actually, he's this is his first race ever, you know.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.440
But he, but his name is the same as your grandma, right?
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:21.440
And so we have like a forehand.
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:23.039
I can make this metaphor.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.039
I can take this metaphor like super far.
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:30.240
But like even always said, okay, put all your money on one of these two horses, which one are you gonna pick?
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:32.640
And everyone bets on the faster horse, right?
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.559
They're like, well, this guy's guaranteed to win.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.079
Like, why would we bet on him?
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.720
Like, I know Henrietta is super cute, but she's not gonna win.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:47.680
Yeah, and quite often when we think about clinical decision making and integrative medicine, we bet on Henrietta often.
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.480
Or we ask the patient, like, which one do you want?
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:56.000
The patient doesn't actually always have the context to say this horse has never run a race before.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.720
We've never studied it in a patient like you before.
00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.119
We have a tried and true solution right here.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.240
I don't care that it's like the same name as your grandma.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.599
We have a solution that literally works every single time.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:09.519
Why wouldn't we start there?
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:22.480
So when we think about like in terms of like how what patients are actually asking for, they're asking to get better, they're asking to be heard a long appointment that gives them a treatment plan that's guaranteed to work is what they're asking for.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:23.039
Yeah.
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:35.440
What we imagine that they're asking for in being heard and having it work is that a unique secret magical solution must be hidden somewhere that we have to find for them to get better.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:42.640
And that I must like over deliver and individualize this treatment experience for them to again justify the fees.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:42.880
Yeah.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.240
But that's not what they're asking for.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.519
They're asking just to get better.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.240
And if we knew something worked nine out of 10 times, we should reach for it every time.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:19:04.640
But when we don't have that information housed anywhere, now practitioners are left to like do a free webinar from a supplement company and then they're like, oh, maybe I'll try that with my patients, or they read one paper and they're like, Oh, maybe I'll try that with my patients.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:10.960
Our goal was that you could stop like feeling that way about patient care and actually have the answer.
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.640
Which one is the stronger horse?
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.160
We actually laid it out for you.
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:15.440
You just have to choose it.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.799
I want to talk about something kind of similar, but a little bit different, and that's boundaries.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:30.720
You, another thing you said, and I didn't write this down exactly, but it was just from the last couple of days, and everybody not following Jordan, you have to follow her because she's got some really nice like prowls of wisdom.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:41.920
It was something along the lines of you have people in your membership that ask you for to extend their annual payment by a couple weeks because they were sick, for example.
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:57.279
And what you said, which is living rent-free in my head now, is if you had like a couple nice days in the summer, would you email Netflix and say, hey, I'd like a couple week extension because I haven't been able to watch as many movies as I normally do?
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:01.039
And it really made me think about boundaries and practitioners.
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:06.079
And so, you know, I guess I'm curious from your perspective personally as well.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:19.599
Like, what are some things that you feel like practitioners should be thinking about in terms of like developing good boundaries with their patients and maybe some things that you've had to learn along the hard way along the way too?
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:30.559
Yeah, and I definitely like I've you know lived a thousand lives in this industry, and I've like, you know, had many, many, many lessons, we'll call them, positive lessons.
00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:44.000
Um, but I think what it comes down to, and it's interesting because we're talking about this inside our community right now, is that you know, clinicians' communication with their patients is maybe the most important part of the entire treatment process.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:54.720
I would say like we're the only, or one of the only medical sub-specialties in integrative medicine where we like hand the patient the knife and they have to go home and do their own surgery.
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:55.119
Right.
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:55.839
Yes, yes.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:56.079
Right.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:05.519
So like when you go see your orthopedic surgeon, you have knee pain, you lie down, they cut your knee open, they fix it for you, and you go home and you didn't have to comply at all, right?
00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:06.559
You just lied there.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.400
Um, and their bedside manager can be shit and it doesn't matter because the interaction is over.
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:25.920
When you're, you know, surgically fixing someone's nutrition or their entire life or their behavior change, we're handing them the knife and we're saying, go home, like please, please do this surgery.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:27.200
Good luck.
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:40.400
And so the communication and the strategy that we use to help patients build self-confidence, self-efficacy, maintain motivation like outside of the appointment really comes down to super clear communication.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:48.400
What I think happens with clinician boundaries is that we don't feel confident setting that tone at the very beginning of the appointment.
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:58.799
Where truly, like when you start working with a new vendor or a new company and they sit you down, they don't say, Hey, you can email me anytime you want, and I'll answer right away.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:21:59.440
Or you know what?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.240
My cell phone number, you just call me, and if I'm sleeping, I'll get up, right?
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.680
Like it's very clear how we work with other companies, they have operating hours, they have customer service hotline.
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:14.160
You cannot talk to the owner at Netflix, right?
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:14.799
Like ever.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:15.279
Ever.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:23.680
It's very clear how we work with other companies, but medicine feels always so personal, and our own businesses, everything feels so personal.
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:34.000
And we don't do a good job of establishing this is my company, this is how my company operates, this is how you interact with my company, this is the fees for dealing with my company.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:39.039
And what that allows for is too much uh gray, right?
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:52.319
So that when a situation does arise, like a cancellation or someone is having an ask that actually falls outside the scope of what they've asked for, we don't actually have a huge leg to stand on because we've never discussed it.
00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:02.400
And so we often will bend to those patient asks or to whatever the asks are, bend our own policies because we haven't been super clear at the beginning.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:09.119
And I think if we can more assertively, as clinicians, feel confident to say, these are my practice hours.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:14.319
I don't answer patient emails, there are no questions that can be answered outside of an appointment.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.960
This appointment time was reserved just for you.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.359
And if you don't use it for whatever reason, you're going to pay for it.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.000
But having the confidence to do that actually comes almost from like our entire profession developing that confidence.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:42.559
Because, you know, if you're the only person on the block who charges this much per hour and has a cancellation policy, it's easy to feel like you're being like uber aggressive when actually you're just setting strong like business boundaries that every business has.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:43.440
Right.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:44.799
I love that.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.240
I want to get a little bit more personal just for our last question.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:56.319
And I want to know a little bit more about like right now, what is your role in your clinic and how is it different than TCC?
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:58.559
And kind of like, what is your week look like?
00:23:58.640 --> 00:23:58.799
Right.
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.039
Or do you split it like 50-50?
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.319
Like uh, and I guess I'm kind of curious too.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.640
Around like, does your role inside of the clinic support a different side of yourself?
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:13.279
And then TCC is another, you know, like one's like right brain, left brain.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:16.720
How does it stack up in your life, your week?
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.680
So this is a really timely question because I controlled my clinic.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:22.960
Oh my god.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.599
Yeah.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:25.920
So it happened two weeks ago.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:27.920
So it's oh my god, gosh.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:30.000
But I can answer actually from both sides.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:43.359
So, um, and the two women who have taken over uh the practice, they I always love to move along from a role or from an opportunity when everything is still thriving.
00:24:43.519 --> 00:25:04.079
Um, I moved um along from the university and I passed my teaching uh post to another naturopathic doctor when I still really liked it, the students still really liked it, but I could see that someone else was actually going to be able to take it places that I couldn't any longer because I didn't have the time or the ability to invest anymore in that role.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.920
And I felt the same about the clinic.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.720
My clinic has been an amazing opportunity.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:15.440
It's been something that obviously was like blood, sweat, tears, and more tears over the last uh 15 years.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.599
I had six um naturopathic doctor associates in the practice.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:43.279
And when I stopped practicing three years ago, they took my entire caseload and they've carried the community and the like passion and vision of the clinic on for the last three years, even without me their day-to-day, which was actually like a sort of beautiful testament to the admin team and to the clinicians themselves and even our patient community, actually, that everything kept flowing uh without me.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:47.200
So I was a hands-off owner for the last three years.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:56.559
But I could see that the next step for the clinic really required someone to be physically in the building more often to actually be able to invest.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:12.559
And I truly believe that having an owner operator, meaning that someone sees patients in the practice, but also um is the is the leader, was probably going to help drive the clinic forward more than my like off-site uh role that I currently had.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.119
So the two women that have taken it over are, you know, going to absolutely thrive.
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.319
The entire team of clinicians went with them.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.039
Um and so I'm so excited for like their new chapter.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:37.119
But it's been it's really the first week in my life that I haven't had to consider uh that role because I was splitting, you know, thinking about um where I needed to think and where what needed my time and attention.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:45.200
And truly, like as a practice owner, like the systems that we had built, I could be absent for a month and the clinic would thrive.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.920
But clinic ownership, you know, when the clinic did need me, they needed me a lot and they needed me five minutes ago, right?
00:26:52.079 --> 00:27:06.000
The the demand in that in that way was high and unexpected when it was happening, but the day-to-day actually was so smooth because we had built such great systems and had such a great team.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:07.119
That's amazing.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:08.880
And I is so timely that I asked this.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:11.519
It literally just happened.
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:12.640
Congratulations.
00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:14.240
That's really exciting to hear.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.559
And so, what's next for you?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:23.440
Well, I will say TCC has been uh like 120% full-time role for the last five years.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:28.960
Um, and so I'm not sure that I've noticed any additional free time in this.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:36.240
Um however, um, our goals in TCC are large.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:44.880
We want to be, you know, known as the like absolute, you know, must-have practice resource for naturopathic and integrative doctors.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:59.039
And we want to build that sort of status in our community that when clinicians have opted in, that they have dedicated, you know, their time and their expertise to our system, that we're acknowledging that actually in a deeper way.
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:21.440
So we're actually building a certification program inside the competent clinician to, you know, have clinicians be able to demonstrate that they're not only a member, but they also meet our guidelines for clinical competency for the absolute, like highest level practitioner in North America so that we can confidently refer patients to practitioners who have demonstrated this.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:24.799
Um, so it's launching uh over the next couple of months.
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.200
Our first sort of mandatory module is launching in November.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:38.799
And it is a behavior change expertise program where we're actually going to help train clinicians in motivational interviewing and how to be a behavior change specialist.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:46.079
You know, I think most clinicians are noticing that we have to migrate away from like knowledge gatekeepers, right?
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.079
Like that that's not our role any longer.
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:56.079
People used to come to us to like learn things, and now they come to us having learned a million things, but what they need is discernment.
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:56.640
Strategy.
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:57.359
Yeah.
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:02.160
And like uh, you know, being able to like stay connected to their plan.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:11.440
If we have the skills in interviewing and um, you know, in strategy and behavior change, we won't survive the AI age.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.359
And I don't say that to me fatalistic.
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:15.359
I actually think we required these skills before.
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:17.759
We could just get away without them before.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.279
Now it's mandatory.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:23.279
And so we've made it a mandatory component of our certification process.
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.720
And so that launches in November, which we're really excited about.
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:27.599
Amazing.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.359
Jordan, how can people find out about you and get connected?
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.559
Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm a prolific Instagrammer.
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.480
Uh, that's a great place to start.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:37.519
So at Dr.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:38.640
Jordan N D.
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:46.720
The confident clinician also has a great uh Instagram page where we share like research tidbits and how to get uh up to date quickly.
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:55.519
It's also a great place to access some of our freebies, like our five-day free trial, where you can like jump in, you get access to four medical modules right out of the gate.
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:04.640
And then, and they're ones people like, like ADHD and things that like we're uh, you know, pretty excited about in integrative medicine, but you also get access to our AI search bar.
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:11.039
And so you can feel what it feels like to have the power of us behind you in your clinical day.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.359
Um, you can get all of that information on the confident clinicians Instagram page.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:17.279
Um, those are really the two best places.
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:18.799
That's where we hang out the most.
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.440
And I have that, you know, I attest to the fact that I love your Instagram.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:29.440
I think you've got one of the better Instagrams out there, and you're one of my most reposted accounts.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:34.960
And I'm not even a clinician, but I just love, I think there's a lot of actionable stuff for myself as a business owner.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:41.039
And then also things that I like to share with my clinician uh clients that I work with too.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.359
So I appreciate, you know, in this age, there's a lot of AI slop out there.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.759
We all know that you are keeping it real out there for keeping it real on our Instagram.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:06.799
And yeah, and I think, you know, there's I I love that your the name is the confident clinician because I feel like part of your messaging that I see as somebody who's, you know, following you is uh it's helping me to feel more confident as a business owner too.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:08.640
So I appreciate that about you.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.640
You're an inspiration to me.
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.960
And uh guys, go check out Jordan.
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:14.480
Thank you so much for being a guest.
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:15.920
Just great so much for having me.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:17.599
All right, bye everybody.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.359
I'll see you on the next episode.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.240
Okay, that's it for this episode.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:34.640
If you're sitting there realizing that patients are coming in just fine, but things are slipping through the cracks behind the scenes, the follow-up, the systems, the back end that's all held together by you and some sticky notes and a prayer.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.799
I've got a few free resources that'll help you see exactly where those gaps are.
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.519
They're all linked in the show notes, so just go grab whatever fits you where you're at right now.
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.559
Also, come follow me on Instagram too and hang out over there.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:52.079
I share a lot of uh good resources at Nicole.leadbetterhq.
00:31:52.400 --> 00:32:02.160
And if you're past the figure it out myself stage and you just want a team to run the operational side of your practice for you, yay! That's exactly what we do at LeadBetterHQ.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:09.200
We run the operations and intelligence layer behind the practice so that patients you already have don't fall through the cracks, right?
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:14.319
We we like to make sure that we're working with um what's actually coming in.
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:17.039
So if that's a thing that you've been looking for, book a call with us.
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:18.160
I'd love to chat with you.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.680
The link's in the show notes, and um, thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:22.799
I'll see you in the next one.
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.599
Bye now.
