Lucia Knight:
00:00:00If you think imposter syndrome is only relevant to a very small
Lucia Knight:
00:00:04part of the population, think again.
Lucia Knight:
00:00:07My guest today is Clare Josa.
Lucia Knight:
00:00:10Author, researcher, speaker, trainer on overcoming imposter syndrome.
Lucia Knight:
00:00:15Her new research discovered that 31 percent of employees in the UK are at high
Lucia Knight:
00:00:21risk of burnout, 1 in 10 consider quitting their job every day, and 22 percent
Lucia Knight:
00:00:27of women have turned down a promotion this year because of imposter syndrome.
Lucia Knight:
00:00:33In our conversation, Clare shares the difference between the very natural
Lucia Knight:
00:00:38self doubt that we feel when we step out of our comfort zone and the
Lucia Knight:
00:00:43debilitating joyless imposter syndrome.
Lucia Knight:
00:00:48She shows us how to recognize it in ourselves and our colleagues and offers us
Lucia Knight:
00:00:53a tiny practical first step on the journey towards feeling good enough at our core.
Lucia Knight:
00:01:01Let's Dive in.
Lucia Knight:
00:01:04Clare!
Lucia Knight:
00:01:05What is the difference between natural human self doubt when we're doing
Lucia Knight:
00:01:10something new or big or running through change and imposter syndrome at work?
Clare Josa:
00:01:16So, Lucia, that is such a great question.
Clare Josa:
00:01:18Self doubt, that is about what we can and can't do.
Clare Josa:
00:01:21And that comes in when we're stretching a comfort zone, we're learning new
Clare Josa:
00:01:23skills, maybe we've moved into a new role and we don't yet have the
Clare Josa:
00:01:27experience or the network to be able to fulfill our potential in it.
Clare Josa:
00:01:31Imposter syndrome, though, has a secret sauce.
Clare Josa:
00:01:34It's actually about who we think we are rather than what we can and can't do.
Clare Josa:
00:01:38And that secret sauce is about the fear of being found out is not
Clare Josa:
00:01:42good enough or somehow a fraud.
Clare Josa:
00:01:45So the reason that's so important is self doubt is natural and healthy.
Clare Josa:
00:01:49You go on some skills based training, get some mentoring, some
Clare Josa:
00:01:52standard coaching that will improve.
Clare Josa:
00:01:54Your confidence will grow.
Clare Josa:
00:01:55But if imposter syndrome is running underneath that 3am worry
Clare Josa:
00:01:59that today's the day your luck will run out, will still persist.
Lucia Knight:
00:02:02And, oh, I absolutely get that difference.
Lucia Knight:
00:02:05So tell me what are some of the major issues that you have seen
Lucia Knight:
00:02:08in your work with experienced professionals when they suffer from
Lucia Knight:
00:02:13imposter syndrome for a long time?
Clare Josa:
00:02:16So one of the biggest challenges is hoping it will go away.
Clare Josa:
00:02:19Yeah, it's hoping we can just push on through and that by just taking
Clare Josa:
00:02:24that deep breath pulling our socks up Pushing on through that fear
Clare Josa:
00:02:28that it will somehow disappear.
Clare Josa:
00:02:29But the problem is imposter syndrome is actually governed by the primal part
Clare Josa:
00:02:32of the brain that has already seen the potential risk or threat And decided to
Clare Josa:
00:02:37self sabotage before the thinking part of the brain is even processing information.
Clare Josa:
00:02:42So we're constantly playing catch up, trying not to self sabotage.
Clare Josa:
00:02:46What happens with imposter syndrome is we will play small.
Clare Josa:
00:02:49We will tone down our ideas.
Clare Josa:
00:02:50We will not speak up.
Clare Josa:
00:02:51So we found in our latest research study, only 11 percent of people
Clare Josa:
00:02:56feel fully confident speaking up with their ideas at work.
Clare Josa:
00:02:59The other, I know the other 80% The other 89, it depends how high risk the
Clare Josa:
00:03:06idea is, but they're toning them down.
Clare Josa:
00:03:08They're keeping quiet.
Clare Josa:
00:03:09They're going what I call beige instead of Marmite.
Clare Josa:
00:03:12Because they are absolutely scared at a, an identity level of being
Clare Josa:
00:03:16found out as not good enough.
Clare Josa:
00:03:18We found that 22 percent of women have turned down offers of promotions.
Clare Josa:
00:03:22They know that they could achieve in the last year due to imposter syndrome.
Clare Josa:
00:03:27So they've actually been offered the job and they've turned it down.
Clare Josa:
00:03:30We've got one in 10 people is thinking of quitting their job every single day.
Clare Josa:
00:03:34Due to imposter syndrome, and it's one in four this week in the UK.
Clare Josa:
00:03:39You see people not speaking up with their opinions, so you end
Clare Josa:
00:03:43up with groupthink, miscreativity.
Clare Josa:
00:03:46But the problem with the pushing on through is it means
Clare Josa:
00:03:49we're stuck in chronic stress.
Clare Josa:
00:03:50We're constantly in that fight flight freeze mode.
Clare Josa:
00:03:53And that is why imposter syndrome is one of the biggest predictors of burnout.
Clare Josa:
00:03:58And we've just found in the research study, 31 percent of people are at high
Clare Josa:
00:04:02risk of burning out very soon in the UK.
Lucia Knight:
00:04:05I can almost smell it.
Lucia Knight:
00:04:07Everyone I'm speaking to it feels like they're getting
Lucia Knight:
00:04:11closer and closer to the edge.
Lucia Knight:
00:04:12So that's super interesting research.
Lucia Knight:
00:04:14Okay.
Lucia Knight:
00:04:15So, If I am a listener, what are some of the signs that will indicate that either
Lucia Knight:
00:04:24I am experiencing and suffering from imposter syndrome or my colleagues are?
Clare Josa:
00:04:31So there are two ways to look at this.
Clare Josa:
00:04:33One of them is you can look at the general behaviors.
Clare Josa:
00:04:35So for example, overthinking and overworking.
Clare Josa:
00:04:38A two hour report takes two days because you spend so much time
Clare Josa:
00:04:41overthinking and second guessing how people might receive it.
Clare Josa:
00:04:44You might have somebody who really struggles to make decisions.
Clare Josa:
00:04:47This happens a lot as somebody is getting promoted.
Clare Josa:
00:04:51They will often lean too heavily on their line manager and the line manager will be
Clare Josa:
00:04:54wondering, why is this person coming to my office or my team's room 10 times a day?
Clare Josa:
00:04:59They could make these decisions on their own.
Clare Josa:
00:05:01So they really struggle with decision paralysis.
Clare Josa:
00:05:03And then from the research studies, we've got a model that we call the
Clare Josa:
00:05:06four P's of imposter syndrome, which are really good behavioral predictors.
Clare Josa:
00:05:10They are perfectionism, procrastination, project paralysis, and people pleasing.
Clare Josa:
00:05:15If you've got somebody in your team, you're looking for changes in these.
Clare Josa:
00:05:19Okay, maybe they've just taken on a stretch objective, a new challenge,
Clare Josa:
00:05:23something more visible, they've been promoted, or they've just
Clare Josa:
00:05:25had the tap on the shoulder about would you like to be promoted?
Clare Josa:
00:05:29If you suddenly see an increase in that perfectionism, procrastination, project
Clare Josa:
00:05:33paralysis, and people pleasing, chances are that whatever's just happened has
Clare Josa:
00:05:37triggered imposter syndrome for them.
Clare Josa:
00:05:39Not only does that munch enormous amounts of time and energy, the stuff that happens
Clare Josa:
00:05:44in the brain with blood flow, that means they won't be able to concentrate as well,
Clare Josa:
00:05:47it affects their performance, they'll be more likely to make mistakes, and they
Clare Josa:
00:05:51overlap with the fight flight freeze fawn stress response, and if you're really
Clare Josa:
00:05:56unfortunate and they head intuitively for the fight response, then it can
Clare Josa:
00:06:00actually turn them into a toxic teammate.
Lucia Knight:
00:06:03Oh my god, you've said so much there.
Lucia Knight:
00:06:07But what I'm feeling in what you've said is that this is
Lucia Knight:
00:06:11energetic work internally, yeah?
Lucia Knight:
00:06:14To do just what is required externally.
Lucia Knight:
00:06:17So, is that where the link is coming towards burnout?
Clare Josa:
00:06:22So it's actually coming from that chronic stress response
Clare Josa:
00:06:24because the biggest issue with imposter syndrome, there are three
Clare Josa:
00:06:27core drivers amplifiers of it.
Clare Josa:
00:06:29There's the external company culture, the working environment
Clare Josa:
00:06:32and the personal habits.
Clare Josa:
00:06:34With the personal habits these can be amplified by the culture and the
Clare Josa:
00:06:37environment and the expectations, how fast you've got to respond to pings,
Clare Josa:
00:06:41for example, um, how the culture is about if you make a mistake.
Clare Josa:
00:06:46What's happening is we're telling ourself what I call mind story drama.
Clare Josa:
00:06:49We're worrying, what if ing, and catastrophizing.
Clare Josa:
00:06:52This fires off that chronic stress response, the fight flight
Clare Josa:
00:06:55freeze response, automatically, without us even realizing.
Clare Josa:
00:07:00That means the body is constantly flooded with adrenaline and cortisol.
Clare Josa:
00:07:03The definition of burnout, is the body no longer being able to handle
Clare Josa:
00:07:06the stress hormones, because we flooded it with them for too long.
Clare Josa:
00:07:10This causes insomnia, with women in particular, if you add in things like
Clare Josa:
00:07:14perimenopause, where we naturally are more sensitive to cortisol.
Clare Josa:
00:07:18It's one of the reasons why perimenopause is a huge trigger point for imposter
Clare Josa:
00:07:21syndrome and also hugely talented women leaving the workplace because of it.
Clare Josa:
00:07:27It's that cortisol and the stress that is driving the self sabotage.
Clare Josa:
00:07:31It's that fear of being found out and to truly clear it from an
Clare Josa:
00:07:36organization, you need to address all three amplifiers, the personal habits,
Clare Josa:
00:07:39the company culture and the working environment that was fostering this.
Lucia Knight:
00:07:43And that's how people can thrive at work and
Lucia Knight:
00:07:45experience more joy, but it can't be done alone and exclusively.
Lucia Knight:
00:07:51Exactly.
Lucia Knight:
00:07:51We will have people who are listening who are either recognizing
Lucia Knight:
00:07:55this at home, in their own work life, or in their colleagues.
Lucia Knight:
00:07:58And you've written a book to show professionals how to ditch imposter
Lucia Knight:
00:08:04syndrome and to finally feel good enough.
Lucia Knight:
00:08:06Great title, by the way.
Lucia Knight:
00:08:08What steps can someone listening today take, next week, to begin this journey
Lucia Knight:
00:08:15towards ditching imposter syndrome.
Clare Josa:
00:08:17One of the first things I would encourage someone
Clare Josa:
00:08:19to start doing right away today is to become more aware of the stories
Clare Josa:
00:08:22that you're telling yourself.
Clare Josa:
00:08:24So if you find yourself in that catastrophizing, you can simply take
Clare Josa:
00:08:28a deep breath in through the nose, breathe out through the mouth with a
Clare Josa:
00:08:30sigh, ideally not on a team's call.
Clare Josa:
00:08:33Yeah.
Clare Josa:
00:08:34Just to bring that stress response down and look at those thoughts
Clare Josa:
00:08:37as though you were observing them.
Clare Josa:
00:08:39And ask yourself, is that really true?
Clare Josa:
00:08:41Or is that just imposter syndrome speaking?
Clare Josa:
00:08:44Just is doing a lot of heavy lifting there because it feels very real
Clare Josa:
00:08:48when it's happening in our heads.
Clare Josa:
00:08:50If it's imposter syndrome speaking, great.
Clare Josa:
00:08:52What do I want instead?
Clare Josa:
00:08:54And start focusing on the first step you can take towards
Clare Josa:
00:08:57the what you want instead.
Clare Josa:
00:08:58All of the work I teach on this whether it's in the books or in the
Clare Josa:
00:09:01imposter syndrome hacks app works at two levels both in the moment where you
Clare Josa:
00:09:06need that press pause and also longer term to prevent imposter syndrome by
Clare Josa:
00:09:11clearing out those root cause drivers.
Clare Josa:
00:09:13It's my engineering background.
Clare Josa:
00:09:14I'm obsessed with root causes.
Clare Josa:
00:09:16Clear it out at the root.
Clare Josa:
00:09:18You don't need the surface level coping strategies, but that is something
Clare Josa:
00:09:21that people could start doing today.
Clare Josa:
00:09:23Is this really true?
Clare Josa:
00:09:24Is it just imposter syndrome speaking?
Clare Josa:
00:09:26What do I want instead and start gently allowing your nervous
Clare Josa:
00:09:30system to focus on making that feel safe and exciting instead.
Clare Josa:
00:09:34If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy my Life Satisfaction Assessment.
Clare Josa:
00:09:38It's a 30 minute program where I guide you through a deep dive into 10 areas
Clare Josa:
00:09:42of your life to assess what's bringing you joy and what's bringing you down.
Clare Josa:
00:09:49I call it D Railed.
Clare Josa:
00:09:51It's a fabulous place to begin a joy at work redesign.
