Michael Shapiro: Welcome to Interplay, conversations in music. This is your host, Michael Shapiro. Today with conductor, cellist, musician extraordinaire, man of the world, Eric Jacobsen. Hi, Eric, how are you?
Eric Jacobsen: That's—that's a very hard introduction to follow.
Michael Shapiro: Why? But that's you.
Eric Jacobsen: Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for—for, you know, putting this together. It's great to have a conversation.
Michael Shapiro: Well, it's great to have a conversation in music, always. And today with Eric Jacobsen, who I consider one of the most organic, if I may, musicians I've ever seen, heard, thought about. What do I mean by organic? What I mean is whatever you approach as a conductor or as a cellist, as a musician, as a leader, it feels very fresh. So if you're conducting Brahms, for example, when I heard you live, before this all hit, the Brahms sounded like a new piece. And for a composer, that's important, because I think it's also your journey as a musician. Because didn't you start out, basically, as a chamber musician? Is that not accurate?
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely. I think—well, first of all, thank you. All the things you said are too sweet. But yes, I remember very clearly when I got the bug to play music, which was somewhere 12, 13, 14, like, ah, this is really the thing I need to do. It was chamber music that drove me there. It was being in a small group and, you know, feeling connected, being able to talk to people on a different level, flirting, you know, figuring out how to do that thing. And when I was in college, there's no question that I thought if I could be a chamber musician, if I could make a living, if I could exist as someone who could communicate on that level, that's it. Because, and to this day, right? To this day, we all recognize that the intimacy of the string quartet, the euphemism for—for egalitarian conversation and—and—and thought and being able to be together, that's so incredibly special. And so, as now—now that I'm a conductor and spend most of my time doing that, I think of the quartet as really the metaphor for what you want an orchestra to feel like. You want it to feel like the person playing second bassoon and the person mid-section in the first violins are connected on the deepest level. So to this day, it's still the search for chamber music with, you know, a larger palette.
Michael Shapiro: It used to be that conductors got their training in the opera house because it was thought to be that—and it's true, because that was my background—that the working with the singer and the breath is very important, and also the—to use the word the name of this broadcast, the interplay between stage and pit. But chamber music's no different. Especially, you know, with your brother, Colin, the great violinist, and the creation of the Brooklyn Riders, your string quartet, where you professionally were listening to each other all the time, and then your work with Silkroad and so forth, with Yo-Yo. All of this stuff has gotten you ready, don't you think, for dealing with the ins and outs of a Brahms symphony? And phrasing.
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely.
Michael Shapiro: And timing.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: But also, there's a—there's a period thing. You've played as a performing musician in chamber music, probably most of the Beethoven, if not all of the Beethoven string quartets, Mozart quartets, many Haydn quartets, to Shostakovich, and who knows what else, quartets. So when you approach, you know, a Shostakovich symphony, let's say, having performed the Shostakovich string quartets, you're one of the few people in the world, other than maybe David Oistrakh, who can claim that. Don't you think?
Eric Jacobsen: That is absolutely one of, I feel like, my luck—my lucks in life, is that I was a string player versus being a pianist, which— some of the time I—I mean, you could—if you could give me the ability tomorrow to play piano well, you could choose any toe of mine you want, it's yours. (Jacobsen laughs)
Michael Shapiro: Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. (Shapiro laughs)
Eric Jacobsen: But of course, growing up as a cellist and being able to have that connection—I'm—I'm about to say the connection to breath, because you're right. The string quartet is about the breath. And of course, you can't expect to communicate with an orchestra, especially when half of it are people that, you know, literally use their breath to make the sound on their instrument without that feeling. I still think about the time, you know, obviously, when, you know, when you're young and you're playing in a quartet for one of the first times, like, you actually do that thing where you're like, (inhales deeply and exhales) where you, you know, you give an upbeat and it's exactly in time. And you're in that tempo. And then you get to a place with a quartet that you play with more and more, and your breath stops being about, um, pulse, you know, like, instead of thinking (claps rhythmically) this is your breath, it starts to actually reflect exactly what the concept of the music is. And, uh, that—that's a really kind of interesting thing. So, you know, the calm pulse of when you play something that has like a romantic or, um, cantabile, beautiful, sung moment, it has a different energy and maybe a slightly pul—different pulse than if you're playing something quick and it's like bright and and energetic. And I think that's a very important thing. Um, I—I still think that when there are moments, a couple of times in life, only a couple, where I'm on stage and I'm playing, but I'm not playing. Somehow my brother is like with his brain reaching out and pulling my bow across the string. (Shapiro laughs) And, you know, the—the—the earth moves, you know? There are only a few times that that happens. And when you—when I've experienced that, it's—it's such a beautiful moment of, um, giving yourself to something. It's not taking, and it's not, um, no one's leading, but everyone's leading. You know, it's not a dictation, it's not a reception. It's just all this thing together. And that's, I mean, I think what you're, when you say that, um, you know, which is so beautiful, that you feel like you're going to see a Brahms concert, you know, the organic feeling of what that is—
Michael Shapiro: You've been there.
Eric Jacobsen: I—I hope that the reason for that is the idea that this push-pull of who's leading, who's following, is constantly changing.
Michael Shapiro: I love that about his tapestry. There's no question, in—in him especially.
Eric Jacobsen: Exactly. So, you know, when a horn player has this long solo and all—and you're thinking about where it's going, but you're really so tapped in with the breath of that human.
Michael Shapiro: Brahms 3. Brahms 3, the romantic movement, when that horn comes in. If you didn't have the experience of playing the Brahms Piano Quintet, I don't know you could do that movement as well. But you have.
Eric Jacobsen: I—I— Yeah, I—I don't disagree. Don't disagree. (Jacobsen chuckles)
Michael Shapiro: You know, I want to talk to you about the interaction, the interface—I'm not going to use interplay again—between your stick and the players. This is an interesting fact which I've encountered over my life. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The times it works, you feel as if you're Harry Potter fighting Voldemort, and the wand is going, kind of going back at you. Do you know that feeling? I had it recently, uh, uh, before the pandemic, when I recorded Archangel, a piano concerto of mine, with your Steve Beck—I say your Steve Beck because that's how we met, your Steve Beck. I love him, greatest pianist in—that I've ever encountered. He can—he can read anything. In any event, we're recording with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales about a year ago, the piano concerto, and I'm feeling a tension in that baton that was just magnificent. Why? Because there was this communication going on between me and those players, and the breath, and dealing with Steve Beck's amazing virtuosity and—and phrase-making. I saw it in your conducting. That there—you let them come to you and you go back at them. It's a very interesting phenomenon, and there are some conductors that you don't see that. When you watch Toscanini's recordings—another cellist, by the way—you see this kind of like magnetism. I shown it to like second graders watching him conduct Wagner, and they're all looking like this, they can't believe what's going on, because it look—it looks like a wizard. But don't you think there is a connection between your cello learning of breath and movement, your brother moving your arm, and what you're doing with the stick? I saw—I saw a string player conducting who had this interface going on. Talk—talk about that phenomenon, and—and why—why does it happen for you?
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely. Well, I—I think there's no question that the bow well, the bow transitioned into the baton, right? So, at some point before there was a conductor, there was the first violin, or there was the harpsichord player, the organist or keyboard instrument player, and they would maybe show like, here we go, (inhales deeply) bomb, and then, you know, as—as the orchestra grew, as, um, industrialization grew and—and the world grew as wanting more—
Michael Shapiro: And conductors got gangrene, like Lully, when he went boom and hit his foot. (Shapiro laughs) God almighty. Exactly. That's not a good story. But, no, talk about it, too. I mean this kind of— this mysterious quality where, literally, it comes up through your legs, into your arm, into them, and then it comes back. That's the Harry Potter phenomenon.
Eric Jacobsen: Well, I—I will say, uh, a confession, that my wife said she wouldn't marry me if I hadn't read the Harry Potter books.
Michael Shapiro: She's right.
Eric Jacobsen: And years later, we're married, but I never read the Harry Potter books. (Jacobsen laughs) But, you know, and she's doing better than me, because she had not seen The Godfather movies.
Michael Shapiro: All right, well, we'll talk about both.
Eric Jacobsen: She watched those. I haven't. I haven't. I'm still on three. Okay. Um, I what you're talking about is something real, um, and, um, though it's not tangible, you know, a feeling that first of all, the bow in itself, um, uh, the connection to the string, I think that that uh, rub, the—the tension and the uh, um, uh, connection, they're very similar. Every—every instrument has this. So, you know, the flute player has it where the wind is going, you feel kind of a pushback in some ways. And, of course, clearly on brass instrument, you have that buzz, but really, you know, coming from what part of your body? Is it your head? Is it your breath? You know, um, everyone has that point of intersection. And actually, um, you know, getting to play with music—musicians from outside of the—the classical world, I feel, um, I remember Béla Fleck saying the—the "brotherhood of the pick." You know, when you're picking an instrument like a—like a banjo or a mandolin, it's so immediate, you know? It's just the second you do it, and we all know this as orchestral musicians, a pizzicato, even when you pluck the string with the flesh of your hand, that speaks sooner than the bow on the string. So, in some ways, the pits has to be a little later, so it's all matched together. And I feel like every instrument has that moment of connection with their sound. Um, and for me, you know, now that, you know, you—you're—you're there and you're not actually making sound, you're actually just, um, trying to gather people and bring people on the same, uh, wavelength and goal and, uh, trajectory like, hey, we're going here with the music, how are we going to get there? Let's all go. I feel that I feel blessed that, you know, having had the time with that, the, you know, the—the cello with the bow on the string, that, um, that is a moment that one can feel, and all musicians know what that is, whether it's a pianist, a percussionist, a string player, a wind player, breath— (inhales deeply and exhales) and you know where that thing is. So, I hope I bring that to any orchestra that I'm with.
Michael Shapiro: Well, it was clear. It was very clear watching you and also listening to the recordings and seeing now the—the video. Now, there are three organizations that you are active with, uh, and you will be again, soon. And they are, of course, the Brooklyn Knights, which is a phenomenal group. I—I often think it's almost like a—a gorilla, using the G-U-E, not the G-O. (Shapiro laughs) But what you do is you put together different ensembles for different occasions, pretty much. There's a season, but there's also, you know, we're going to do this or we're going to do that, and we're going to be outside or we're going to be in a bar or we're going to be, you know, out in Central Park. It doesn't— you don't care where it is. You just—the communication's what's important, that, you know, what I call about the the cross-fertilization. But then there's Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra, which in Central Florida, and the Greater Bridgeport Symphony. These three organizations—very different, very different communities, very different needs. One's Brooklyn and the—and the New York metropolitan area, and also going to Europe and all kinds of places that you've gone to, and then you've got these—these local institutions. So, I'm just curious, when you're building a season, because you have to think about nothing happens, you know, immediate, we—we have to play in way in advance typically to get solar cells and blah, blah, blah, do right repertoire, what's the difference for you? Or is there one?
Eric Jacobsen: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, every community needs a different something at a different time with uh, with regard to specific music programmed, specific soloists, uh, how do you gather people, what does a company—community need and want, and what do they not know that they need and want? That you could bring to them, because obviously, the duty of an orchestra there are—there are duties that are like a museum. We are the civic orchestra that brings the great historic works to the stage. Right. And so that's one—one aspect of being a civic orchestra. Maybe that aspect was something that was more, uh, say, that maybe that used to be 95% of what civic orchestras did, you know, uh, 20 years ago. And I feel like now the transition for orchestras is really about, um, the—the words that are said and maybe cliché are like "relevance" and "sustainability" and "connecting," and of course, all those things are true. And we need to figure out a way that an orchestra in a city can be connected with not just the immediate patron base of ticket buyers, subscribers, things like that, because we need to be everywhere, right? Everyone needs to be everywhere right now, for better or for worse.
Michael Shapiro: And Eric, there's not just one audience. That's what orchestras need to learn, and many of them have. You know, because you are an—an entrepreneur with your brother with, of course, the Brooklyn Knights, and you've seen it. Remember, there's no Brooklyn Philharmonic anymore, you are the Brooklyn Knights, and why? Because you answered a need. It's really true.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. Yeah, the—the Knights is really about figuring out where is, um, where is the place that we can most fit? You know, um, we have to carve out our niche because, of course, New York is so plentiful with so many incredible artists, great groups. So you have to find your way to create. And it's funny, uh, we have sort of different, we plug into different needs in different places. In Europe, actually, when we tour, we tour generally, you know, a symphonic orchestra that's like a Beethoven symphony or a Schubert symphony. Now, we pair that and we— we frame that with the most beautiful, colorful frames. Sometimes it's gold and you're putting Couperin or something, and something it's—sometimes it's kind of a rustic new thing like, you know, Thomas Adès over here, or sometimes it's just a canvas that has no frame around it, like Rameau or something, and then making arrangements and Berio, you know, all different programs that come together, uh, for— for various reasons. And I feel like, for me, programming, especially with the Knights, um, when we're touring, say, a standard piece of music, and I say standard meaning of the classical canon, um, it's really about what do you put around it to make those things unique? And for— for civic orchestras, like programming music in Orlando, not only do we have to play, you know, a Schumann symphony that I was just thinking about recently that we're doing in— in about a month and a half, but also need to bring composers with that thing so they could actually have a new way of thinking about Schumann. So, this concert that's coming up, um, with— with Schumann's Second Symphony, we're doing like a Lembit Beecher world premiere with a cellist who's been here before, Karen Ouzounian, absolutely incredible, and— and I think we're starting that concert with an Arvo Pärt piece. And it's kind of a beautiful, it's an outdoor concert. So there's something very special about all those elements, which are very nature-oriented in general, Good. and being I think really being able to represent, you know, um, all different styles of music. Now, that's only three composers on a season, but, you know, clearly, it's— it's about trying to reach um, a new understanding of different, different music.
Michael Shapiro: That's wonderful. But, and now in Bridgeport, you've also—you also go into the schools. I know that, you've been doing that.
Eric Jacobsen: Yes, on every— every program that we're together, we're in at least one school. Sometimes, uh, and it works in different ways. What we've really been trying to do is bring the entire orchestra to schools. It's— it's kind of a— a daunting task for all the reasons. Not only are schools hard to, you know, like, "Hey, are we available right now?" or, but also the just getting, you know, 60 people through a door of a school. It's very—
Michael Shapiro: But it makes such a difference. I've spoken to old-timers years ago who spoke about the first time they heard classical music was when the Philadelphia Orchestra and Leopold Stokowski came to their school. Can you imagine?
Eric Jacobsen: Ah!
Michael Shapiro: So beautiful. And he did it all the time. Stoki did it all the time.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: And he invited people in to see rehearsals. Koussevitzky did it, too.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: It's just— s— it's smart, because you come part of that whole community.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. So we've been, in both Bridgeport and Orlando, you know, we have these rehearsals that take place, so you have like four or five rehearsals, and then you have concerts. And we've been trying to do our rehearsals, at least some of them, in school auditoriums.
Michael Shapiro: Smart.
Eric Jacobsen: And make it available. So, and it becomes kind of, you know, there are various ways. You could just rehearse and let people watch. You could make it an open rehearsal and engage briefly. But we always try to put it so that students show up at certain time, and during that time, we perform for them, meaning we're interact with them and ask them questions, and try to have that thing. I think it does go a very long way to building relationships that might pay dividends in 30 years because you're in the school, and then you go to college, and you have a family, and, "Oh, do you remember?"
Michael Shapiro: "That Eric Jacobsen, he introduced me to the— the Beethoven Eroica when I was 7 years old. I cannot— I— what an introduction." (Shapiro & Jacobsen laugh) Boy, was he good. You know, this is the stuff that we have to build on.
Eric Jacobsen: That's good.
Michael Shapiro: I— I have a question that I've asked other conductors and musicians, which I find interesting as a 70-year-old composer. Why does some music last and some does not? When Beethoven wrote his nine symphonies, there were 300— 300 symphonies being written by other people. Maybe we represent— rep— re— remember a little bit of Cherubini, and sometimes Hummel, but otherwise, no. What makes something stick in your mind?
Eric Jacobsen: Well, I guess it's two or three things. It's one that, uh, greatness does rise to some degree, you know? Sometimes things that are great get lost. But I think it's— it's that and it's fashion, right? Things go— things are not in fashion right now that are still truly great. And will, hopefully, circle back.
Michael Shapiro: What kind of things are— are not in fashion now?
Eric Jacobsen: I— I remember my teacher, um, Harvey Shapiro, talking about how Boellmann, a composer who wrote various pieces, and maybe most famous was his Symphonic Variations for cello and orchestra, 20-minute piece, which is probably just as valid as a piece of music as Saint-Saëns' concerto or something, you know, uh, it's kind of late-Romantic, beautiful, and it fell out of fashion because it was maybe, um, the composer's name didn't become such a thing and mhm, some— there wasn't enough behind, it wasn't part of like this French movement, mhm, and we end up saying, "Oh, that's not really the thing now." And, you know, there are, obviously, our loved composers of a time period. Like, clearly John Adams is the most recognized American symphonic composer—I mean, Philip Glass, but John in terms of that's what he does. He does a little bit of film score, but really, it's just— it's— it's that thing, and he will clearly, as he continues to compose, be be commissioned and more pieces are going to be written, and clear— as far as I'm concerned, he will— his name and his music will live on forever. Uh, and like— like Beethoven, Beethoven was recognized in his time. He wasn't an undiscovered composer, um, for being great and being amazing, and people loved him, and they judged him as, you know, maybe— maybe these days, because the word genius gets thrown around, maybe some people who have greatness and have been recognized as great, maybe they get a pass. Uh, and it's, "Oh, yeah, that wasn't—" it was still great, 'cause he's or she's so genius and brilliant that they, you know, of course, it's so good.
Michael Shapiro: But you know, you mentioned Beethoven, it's interesting. In the 1820s, he was eclipsed by Rossini. That's— Well, the opera, you know, the stage continues to be a, uh, the thing where, oh, well, maybe that's more of the perfect art, right?
Michael Shapiro: And— and he was very— he was rather annoyed about that, it turns out.
Eric Jacobsen: As— as being the most famous, you mean?
Michael Shapiro: Popular. Getting performed, being the hot ticket. The hot tick— yeah. (Jacobsen laughs) Right? It's very interesting the way these things work, and then you look at somebody like Meyerbeer, who was, you know, just a massively huge composer making all kinds of money, and nobody's doing The Prophet or Africaine now. It's fascinating how this works, sometimes. You know, um, in your career, Eric Jacobsen, it is fascinating to watch and to observe how you um, en— encounter different circumstances, and you step back, it's clear, and you think. And you think about: what can I do to bring a meaningful conversation into these relationships I'm going to have? I think it's clear too, don't you think, to to finish our a wonderful discussion today, that when you get in front of an orchestra, don't they mostly know that you're a virtuoso cellist as well? Do you think that makes any dif— bit of difference? Among the string players. I'm not asking you about the— the trombone, the third trombone, but I'm just curious.
Eric Jacobsen: I— I think there's absolutely mutual respect when it comes to the recognition of what it does to become excellent at something. And, you know, sometimes now, uh, talking to a very young, hopeful conductor, like a 15-year-old who says, "I want to be a conductor," that seems odd to me, because, and— and everyone goes through their own process, but if I hadn't become a cellist, if I hadn't honed the skills to be um, good enough to be a musician on at playing instrument, playing an instrument, that was my, as you started this conversation, coming up in the opera ranks. Like, I didn't come up in the opera ranks, I came up in the instrumental, um, um, uh, chamber/uh, uh, um, orchestra, chamber orchestra, string quartet world, yeah.
Michael Shapiro: Freelance New York musician.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. And I, uh, there's no question that my respect on the podium for all the musicians who are there, who are playing, is like, gosh, you have to— you have to hone that skill. Every day, you go home, and you just go like this, because, and maybe it's not to get better, maybe it's just to be able to do that as well as you could. And then, maybe two days later, it is actually a step forward, and you always want to be better as a musician. How does one do that? And so, if I— I— I hope that while I'm there on that podium, I exude that respect, and I hope that that's recognized because we have to. Uh, you know, there— this is such a hard thing. It's an Olympic athletic, you know, sprint every time you actually are playing an instrument, and we don't think about that so much. I mean, how many great basketball players are there? How many great oboists are there? It's— it's, you know, it's not that many. And you think about, well, clearly, there could be more great basketball players, there could be more great oboists. But boy, does it take a lot to decide that that's the direction you're going to go in your life. So, I hope that what you're saying, um, does come across, which is a mutual respect of, ooh!, that's a lot. And, you know, I'll say this, I, um, I hope that I translate that. I think a lot of it has to do with my father, um, being a violinist, uh, in the Met Opera for so long, and telling me just couple little things throughout the years that are just so bothersome. You know, a conductor who corrects mistakes. Like, that's unnecessary, because someone plays a B-flat instead of a B-natural, it's like, yeah, the next time they'll play it right, there's no— and there— it's a waste of time to— to— to let people know that you know that they made a mistake. It's just ridiculous. 'Cause, I mean, if something happens two times, three times, okay, maybe it's a misprint, maybe someone had, you know, had some weird recording in their mind, it's just a mistake. That's, oh, fine. But, you know, um, when we're there and doing something together, the idea that one makes a mistake and it's a big deal, it doesn't matter. You know, you're spending time, you're rehearsing, you're getting to a shared mutual understanding of where you're going, it's so much more important than letting people know that you know you played a wrong note. So, I hope that as a conductor, that's— that is translated from— from, you know, from having played an instrument.
Michael Shapiro: No, it's very— it's fascinating. Is it also very interesting about the role of the conductor, because let's talk about that, just for a few seconds and then we have to go. You know, you're up there trying to, in a word, impose, in a way, your view of how a piece should go. How it should breathe, how it should— how the speed of— of it, you know, the nature of it, the very essence of it. And there are 60, 70, 80, who knows how many, in front of you, who you want to melt to your will, but at the same time, and this is the rub, this is the genius of it, you need their input back at you. Their input back at you is not only your input to them, it's a— that's that pressure in the baton that I was talking about, the Harry Potter-Voldemort moment. So to end, talk about that— that mindset that you have to have when you start a new piece with a fresh orchestra, not people you know already. I assume with your three ensembles, you know, that— that back and forth is very easy, but let's say it's the first time going before the X— X City Symphony, you know, hard-nosed players, you're there, you put it down, it's a minute—you've got a minute and a half to show them, you know, what you're doing. Talk about that. What's in your head?
Eric Jacobsen: Ha! Well, I— I'll give the the most obvious answer that I could think of, is that you get right to work and do music, and you— you do the thing that you have to do, uh, because you just have to. And sometimes it's awkward at first, just like any other relationship, you know, you— you be there, you do that thing. And I— and I really think that, you know, that, uh, that idea of surrounding yourself and embracing different ideas and really, really great, great musicians and great players and great minds, you know, it's like Lincoln surrounding himself with a cabinet of people who disagreed, because—
Michael Shapiro: Cabinet of Rivals, yeah.
Eric Jacobsen: What's that?
Michael Shapiro: Team of Rivals, yeah.
Eric Jacobsen: Exactly. Yeah, you end up having a— a group of people that will end up not compromising, you will end up with a group of people whose opinions are so strong that they have to actually really decide what— no, it's not, we're not going to— I want it loud, I want it soft. Okay, let's play it in between. Well, that's not better. So how do you actually figure out what is better? And with an orchestra, I think it's so important to try to get that, right? It's not just I— I mean, there's— there's no— there's not enough time in the world to give everyone an exact idea of what you want as a conductor, it's ridiculous. Because generally speaking, in most pieces, you show up on the podium, if— if you haven't just centered in and only done that one piece of music your whole life, quite likely, many people in the orchestra have played the piece as many times as you, or have played it many more times than you, and there's such um, institutional memory as— as musicians, mhm, that needs to be activated. And therefore, the chance of learning something and actually taking more away than you're able to give is, well, guilt-inducing and beautiful. The idea that, like, you can possibly participate in something that actually the oboists, they had there, they knew, they knew all along. And now you know. So the next time you go and you're with a group that hasn't done it so much, you might be able to say, "Hey, there's this one time that, you know, um, Jane was playing and I was so impressed with this and this is what they did." And— and, oh! And that's actually the beauty of how communication is super slow and across generations. Yes, we have the internet, yes, we can email, yes, we can text and everything is instantaneous, but the oral tradition of music is one that's often about, you know, words spoken and then sounds heard, and going back and forth. So, you know, it's why, you know, we talk about, oh, that version of that with the Vienna Philharmonic was 60 years away from when Brahms was alive, and therefore, there's this, and those are such beautiful things and should be embraced. And I, uh, wouldn't it be nice if if the world was able to have that as um, a more formal way of communicating, not just the um, the social media, um, and the dangers of not actually looking at someone in the eye?
Michael Shapiro: Well, I— I— I love your sincerity and the way you approach things. I think the answer is, frankly, when you get in front of that group for the first time, or even the hundredth time, there's a sincerity that you bring to it, which you've shown on again on on our talk today. I can't thank you enough, Eric Jacobsen, for— for being on this broadcast with me.
Eric Jacobsen: Thank you so much, Michael. It's just such a total pleasure. Can't wait to see you again in a concert hall, there.
Michael Shapiro: Would that be nice? (Shapiro laughs) Eric Jacobsen, musician extraordinaire, thank you so much for joining me on Interplay: Conversations in Music.
Eric Jacobsen: Thank you so much for having me. Total pleasure.
Michael Shapiro: I'm Michael Shapiro, your host, looking forward to seeing you again on Interplay: Conversations in Music. Thank you for joining us.
Eric Jacobsen: That's—that's a very hard introduction to follow.
Michael Shapiro: Why? But that's you.
Eric Jacobsen: Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for—for, you know, putting this together. It's great to have a conversation.
Michael Shapiro: Well, it's great to have a conversation in music, always. And today with Eric Jacobsen, who I consider one of the most organic, if I may, musicians I've ever seen, heard, thought about. What do I mean by organic? What I mean is whatever you approach as a conductor or as a cellist, as a musician, as a leader, it feels very fresh. So if you're conducting Brahms, for example, when I heard you live, before this all hit, the Brahms sounded like a new piece. And for a composer, that's important, because I think it's also your journey as a musician. Because didn't you start out, basically, as a chamber musician? Is that not accurate?
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely. I think—well, first of all, thank you. All the things you said are too sweet. But yes, I remember very clearly when I got the bug to play music, which was somewhere 12, 13, 14, like, ah, this is really the thing I need to do. It was chamber music that drove me there. It was being in a small group and, you know, feeling connected, being able to talk to people on a different level, flirting, you know, figuring out how to do that thing. And when I was in college, there's no question that I thought if I could be a chamber musician, if I could make a living, if I could exist as someone who could communicate on that level, that's it. Because, and to this day, right? To this day, we all recognize that the intimacy of the string quartet, the euphemism for—for egalitarian conversation and—and—and thought and being able to be together, that's so incredibly special. And so, as now—now that I'm a conductor and spend most of my time doing that, I think of the quartet as really the metaphor for what you want an orchestra to feel like. You want it to feel like the person playing second bassoon and the person mid-section in the first violins are connected on the deepest level. So to this day, it's still the search for chamber music with, you know, a larger palette.
Michael Shapiro: It used to be that conductors got their training in the opera house because it was thought to be that—and it's true, because that was my background—that the working with the singer and the breath is very important, and also the—to use the word the name of this broadcast, the interplay between stage and pit. But chamber music's no different. Especially, you know, with your brother, Colin, the great violinist, and the creation of the Brooklyn Riders, your string quartet, where you professionally were listening to each other all the time, and then your work with Silkroad and so forth, with Yo-Yo. All of this stuff has gotten you ready, don't you think, for dealing with the ins and outs of a Brahms symphony? And phrasing.
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely.
Michael Shapiro: And timing.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: But also, there's a—there's a period thing. You've played as a performing musician in chamber music, probably most of the Beethoven, if not all of the Beethoven string quartets, Mozart quartets, many Haydn quartets, to Shostakovich, and who knows what else, quartets. So when you approach, you know, a Shostakovich symphony, let's say, having performed the Shostakovich string quartets, you're one of the few people in the world, other than maybe David Oistrakh, who can claim that. Don't you think?
Eric Jacobsen: That is absolutely one of, I feel like, my luck—my lucks in life, is that I was a string player versus being a pianist, which— some of the time I—I mean, you could—if you could give me the ability tomorrow to play piano well, you could choose any toe of mine you want, it's yours. (Jacobsen laughs)
Michael Shapiro: Be safe. Be safe. Be safe. (Shapiro laughs)
Eric Jacobsen: But of course, growing up as a cellist and being able to have that connection—I'm—I'm about to say the connection to breath, because you're right. The string quartet is about the breath. And of course, you can't expect to communicate with an orchestra, especially when half of it are people that, you know, literally use their breath to make the sound on their instrument without that feeling. I still think about the time, you know, obviously, when, you know, when you're young and you're playing in a quartet for one of the first times, like, you actually do that thing where you're like, (inhales deeply and exhales) where you, you know, you give an upbeat and it's exactly in time. And you're in that tempo. And then you get to a place with a quartet that you play with more and more, and your breath stops being about, um, pulse, you know, like, instead of thinking (claps rhythmically) this is your breath, it starts to actually reflect exactly what the concept of the music is. And, uh, that—that's a really kind of interesting thing. So, you know, the calm pulse of when you play something that has like a romantic or, um, cantabile, beautiful, sung moment, it has a different energy and maybe a slightly pul—different pulse than if you're playing something quick and it's like bright and and energetic. And I think that's a very important thing. Um, I—I still think that when there are moments, a couple of times in life, only a couple, where I'm on stage and I'm playing, but I'm not playing. Somehow my brother is like with his brain reaching out and pulling my bow across the string. (Shapiro laughs) And, you know, the—the—the earth moves, you know? There are only a few times that that happens. And when you—when I've experienced that, it's—it's such a beautiful moment of, um, giving yourself to something. It's not taking, and it's not, um, no one's leading, but everyone's leading. You know, it's not a dictation, it's not a reception. It's just all this thing together. And that's, I mean, I think what you're, when you say that, um, you know, which is so beautiful, that you feel like you're going to see a Brahms concert, you know, the organic feeling of what that is—
Michael Shapiro: You've been there.
Eric Jacobsen: I—I hope that the reason for that is the idea that this push-pull of who's leading, who's following, is constantly changing.
Michael Shapiro: I love that about his tapestry. There's no question, in—in him especially.
Eric Jacobsen: Exactly. So, you know, when a horn player has this long solo and all—and you're thinking about where it's going, but you're really so tapped in with the breath of that human.
Michael Shapiro: Brahms 3. Brahms 3, the romantic movement, when that horn comes in. If you didn't have the experience of playing the Brahms Piano Quintet, I don't know you could do that movement as well. But you have.
Eric Jacobsen: I—I— Yeah, I—I don't disagree. Don't disagree. (Jacobsen chuckles)
Michael Shapiro: You know, I want to talk to you about the interaction, the interface—I'm not going to use interplay again—between your stick and the players. This is an interesting fact which I've encountered over my life. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The times it works, you feel as if you're Harry Potter fighting Voldemort, and the wand is going, kind of going back at you. Do you know that feeling? I had it recently, uh, uh, before the pandemic, when I recorded Archangel, a piano concerto of mine, with your Steve Beck—I say your Steve Beck because that's how we met, your Steve Beck. I love him, greatest pianist in—that I've ever encountered. He can—he can read anything. In any event, we're recording with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales about a year ago, the piano concerto, and I'm feeling a tension in that baton that was just magnificent. Why? Because there was this communication going on between me and those players, and the breath, and dealing with Steve Beck's amazing virtuosity and—and phrase-making. I saw it in your conducting. That there—you let them come to you and you go back at them. It's a very interesting phenomenon, and there are some conductors that you don't see that. When you watch Toscanini's recordings—another cellist, by the way—you see this kind of like magnetism. I shown it to like second graders watching him conduct Wagner, and they're all looking like this, they can't believe what's going on, because it look—it looks like a wizard. But don't you think there is a connection between your cello learning of breath and movement, your brother moving your arm, and what you're doing with the stick? I saw—I saw a string player conducting who had this interface going on. Talk—talk about that phenomenon, and—and why—why does it happen for you?
Eric Jacobsen: Absolutely. Well, I—I think there's no question that the bow well, the bow transitioned into the baton, right? So, at some point before there was a conductor, there was the first violin, or there was the harpsichord player, the organist or keyboard instrument player, and they would maybe show like, here we go, (inhales deeply) bomb, and then, you know, as—as the orchestra grew, as, um, industrialization grew and—and the world grew as wanting more—
Michael Shapiro: And conductors got gangrene, like Lully, when he went boom and hit his foot. (Shapiro laughs) God almighty. Exactly. That's not a good story. But, no, talk about it, too. I mean this kind of— this mysterious quality where, literally, it comes up through your legs, into your arm, into them, and then it comes back. That's the Harry Potter phenomenon.
Eric Jacobsen: Well, I—I will say, uh, a confession, that my wife said she wouldn't marry me if I hadn't read the Harry Potter books.
Michael Shapiro: She's right.
Eric Jacobsen: And years later, we're married, but I never read the Harry Potter books. (Jacobsen laughs) But, you know, and she's doing better than me, because she had not seen The Godfather movies.
Michael Shapiro: All right, well, we'll talk about both.
Eric Jacobsen: She watched those. I haven't. I haven't. I'm still on three. Okay. Um, I what you're talking about is something real, um, and, um, though it's not tangible, you know, a feeling that first of all, the bow in itself, um, uh, the connection to the string, I think that that uh, rub, the—the tension and the uh, um, uh, connection, they're very similar. Every—every instrument has this. So, you know, the flute player has it where the wind is going, you feel kind of a pushback in some ways. And, of course, clearly on brass instrument, you have that buzz, but really, you know, coming from what part of your body? Is it your head? Is it your breath? You know, um, everyone has that point of intersection. And actually, um, you know, getting to play with music—musicians from outside of the—the classical world, I feel, um, I remember Béla Fleck saying the—the "brotherhood of the pick." You know, when you're picking an instrument like a—like a banjo or a mandolin, it's so immediate, you know? It's just the second you do it, and we all know this as orchestral musicians, a pizzicato, even when you pluck the string with the flesh of your hand, that speaks sooner than the bow on the string. So, in some ways, the pits has to be a little later, so it's all matched together. And I feel like every instrument has that moment of connection with their sound. Um, and for me, you know, now that, you know, you—you're—you're there and you're not actually making sound, you're actually just, um, trying to gather people and bring people on the same, uh, wavelength and goal and, uh, trajectory like, hey, we're going here with the music, how are we going to get there? Let's all go. I feel that I feel blessed that, you know, having had the time with that, the, you know, the—the cello with the bow on the string, that, um, that is a moment that one can feel, and all musicians know what that is, whether it's a pianist, a percussionist, a string player, a wind player, breath— (inhales deeply and exhales) and you know where that thing is. So, I hope I bring that to any orchestra that I'm with.
Michael Shapiro: Well, it was clear. It was very clear watching you and also listening to the recordings and seeing now the—the video. Now, there are three organizations that you are active with, uh, and you will be again, soon. And they are, of course, the Brooklyn Knights, which is a phenomenal group. I—I often think it's almost like a—a gorilla, using the G-U-E, not the G-O. (Shapiro laughs) But what you do is you put together different ensembles for different occasions, pretty much. There's a season, but there's also, you know, we're going to do this or we're going to do that, and we're going to be outside or we're going to be in a bar or we're going to be, you know, out in Central Park. It doesn't— you don't care where it is. You just—the communication's what's important, that, you know, what I call about the the cross-fertilization. But then there's Orlando Philharmonic Orchestra, which in Central Florida, and the Greater Bridgeport Symphony. These three organizations—very different, very different communities, very different needs. One's Brooklyn and the—and the New York metropolitan area, and also going to Europe and all kinds of places that you've gone to, and then you've got these—these local institutions. So, I'm just curious, when you're building a season, because you have to think about nothing happens, you know, immediate, we—we have to play in way in advance typically to get solar cells and blah, blah, blah, do right repertoire, what's the difference for you? Or is there one?
Eric Jacobsen: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, every community needs a different something at a different time with uh, with regard to specific music programmed, specific soloists, uh, how do you gather people, what does a company—community need and want, and what do they not know that they need and want? That you could bring to them, because obviously, the duty of an orchestra there are—there are duties that are like a museum. We are the civic orchestra that brings the great historic works to the stage. Right. And so that's one—one aspect of being a civic orchestra. Maybe that aspect was something that was more, uh, say, that maybe that used to be 95% of what civic orchestras did, you know, uh, 20 years ago. And I feel like now the transition for orchestras is really about, um, the—the words that are said and maybe cliché are like "relevance" and "sustainability" and "connecting," and of course, all those things are true. And we need to figure out a way that an orchestra in a city can be connected with not just the immediate patron base of ticket buyers, subscribers, things like that, because we need to be everywhere, right? Everyone needs to be everywhere right now, for better or for worse.
Michael Shapiro: And Eric, there's not just one audience. That's what orchestras need to learn, and many of them have. You know, because you are an—an entrepreneur with your brother with, of course, the Brooklyn Knights, and you've seen it. Remember, there's no Brooklyn Philharmonic anymore, you are the Brooklyn Knights, and why? Because you answered a need. It's really true.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. Yeah, the—the Knights is really about figuring out where is, um, where is the place that we can most fit? You know, um, we have to carve out our niche because, of course, New York is so plentiful with so many incredible artists, great groups. So you have to find your way to create. And it's funny, uh, we have sort of different, we plug into different needs in different places. In Europe, actually, when we tour, we tour generally, you know, a symphonic orchestra that's like a Beethoven symphony or a Schubert symphony. Now, we pair that and we— we frame that with the most beautiful, colorful frames. Sometimes it's gold and you're putting Couperin or something, and something it's—sometimes it's kind of a rustic new thing like, you know, Thomas Adès over here, or sometimes it's just a canvas that has no frame around it, like Rameau or something, and then making arrangements and Berio, you know, all different programs that come together, uh, for— for various reasons. And I feel like, for me, programming, especially with the Knights, um, when we're touring, say, a standard piece of music, and I say standard meaning of the classical canon, um, it's really about what do you put around it to make those things unique? And for— for civic orchestras, like programming music in Orlando, not only do we have to play, you know, a Schumann symphony that I was just thinking about recently that we're doing in— in about a month and a half, but also need to bring composers with that thing so they could actually have a new way of thinking about Schumann. So, this concert that's coming up, um, with— with Schumann's Second Symphony, we're doing like a Lembit Beecher world premiere with a cellist who's been here before, Karen Ouzounian, absolutely incredible, and— and I think we're starting that concert with an Arvo Pärt piece. And it's kind of a beautiful, it's an outdoor concert. So there's something very special about all those elements, which are very nature-oriented in general, Good. and being I think really being able to represent, you know, um, all different styles of music. Now, that's only three composers on a season, but, you know, clearly, it's— it's about trying to reach um, a new understanding of different, different music.
Michael Shapiro: That's wonderful. But, and now in Bridgeport, you've also—you also go into the schools. I know that, you've been doing that.
Eric Jacobsen: Yes, on every— every program that we're together, we're in at least one school. Sometimes, uh, and it works in different ways. What we've really been trying to do is bring the entire orchestra to schools. It's— it's kind of a— a daunting task for all the reasons. Not only are schools hard to, you know, like, "Hey, are we available right now?" or, but also the just getting, you know, 60 people through a door of a school. It's very—
Michael Shapiro: But it makes such a difference. I've spoken to old-timers years ago who spoke about the first time they heard classical music was when the Philadelphia Orchestra and Leopold Stokowski came to their school. Can you imagine?
Eric Jacobsen: Ah!
Michael Shapiro: So beautiful. And he did it all the time. Stoki did it all the time.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: And he invited people in to see rehearsals. Koussevitzky did it, too.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah.
Michael Shapiro: It's just— s— it's smart, because you come part of that whole community.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. So we've been, in both Bridgeport and Orlando, you know, we have these rehearsals that take place, so you have like four or five rehearsals, and then you have concerts. And we've been trying to do our rehearsals, at least some of them, in school auditoriums.
Michael Shapiro: Smart.
Eric Jacobsen: And make it available. So, and it becomes kind of, you know, there are various ways. You could just rehearse and let people watch. You could make it an open rehearsal and engage briefly. But we always try to put it so that students show up at certain time, and during that time, we perform for them, meaning we're interact with them and ask them questions, and try to have that thing. I think it does go a very long way to building relationships that might pay dividends in 30 years because you're in the school, and then you go to college, and you have a family, and, "Oh, do you remember?"
Michael Shapiro: "That Eric Jacobsen, he introduced me to the— the Beethoven Eroica when I was 7 years old. I cannot— I— what an introduction." (Shapiro & Jacobsen laugh) Boy, was he good. You know, this is the stuff that we have to build on.
Eric Jacobsen: That's good.
Michael Shapiro: I— I have a question that I've asked other conductors and musicians, which I find interesting as a 70-year-old composer. Why does some music last and some does not? When Beethoven wrote his nine symphonies, there were 300— 300 symphonies being written by other people. Maybe we represent— rep— re— remember a little bit of Cherubini, and sometimes Hummel, but otherwise, no. What makes something stick in your mind?
Eric Jacobsen: Well, I guess it's two or three things. It's one that, uh, greatness does rise to some degree, you know? Sometimes things that are great get lost. But I think it's— it's that and it's fashion, right? Things go— things are not in fashion right now that are still truly great. And will, hopefully, circle back.
Michael Shapiro: What kind of things are— are not in fashion now?
Eric Jacobsen: I— I remember my teacher, um, Harvey Shapiro, talking about how Boellmann, a composer who wrote various pieces, and maybe most famous was his Symphonic Variations for cello and orchestra, 20-minute piece, which is probably just as valid as a piece of music as Saint-Saëns' concerto or something, you know, uh, it's kind of late-Romantic, beautiful, and it fell out of fashion because it was maybe, um, the composer's name didn't become such a thing and mhm, some— there wasn't enough behind, it wasn't part of like this French movement, mhm, and we end up saying, "Oh, that's not really the thing now." And, you know, there are, obviously, our loved composers of a time period. Like, clearly John Adams is the most recognized American symphonic composer—I mean, Philip Glass, but John in terms of that's what he does. He does a little bit of film score, but really, it's just— it's— it's that thing, and he will clearly, as he continues to compose, be be commissioned and more pieces are going to be written, and clear— as far as I'm concerned, he will— his name and his music will live on forever. Uh, and like— like Beethoven, Beethoven was recognized in his time. He wasn't an undiscovered composer, um, for being great and being amazing, and people loved him, and they judged him as, you know, maybe— maybe these days, because the word genius gets thrown around, maybe some people who have greatness and have been recognized as great, maybe they get a pass. Uh, and it's, "Oh, yeah, that wasn't—" it was still great, 'cause he's or she's so genius and brilliant that they, you know, of course, it's so good.
Michael Shapiro: But you know, you mentioned Beethoven, it's interesting. In the 1820s, he was eclipsed by Rossini. That's— Well, the opera, you know, the stage continues to be a, uh, the thing where, oh, well, maybe that's more of the perfect art, right?
Michael Shapiro: And— and he was very— he was rather annoyed about that, it turns out.
Eric Jacobsen: As— as being the most famous, you mean?
Michael Shapiro: Popular. Getting performed, being the hot ticket. The hot tick— yeah. (Jacobsen laughs) Right? It's very interesting the way these things work, and then you look at somebody like Meyerbeer, who was, you know, just a massively huge composer making all kinds of money, and nobody's doing The Prophet or Africaine now. It's fascinating how this works, sometimes. You know, um, in your career, Eric Jacobsen, it is fascinating to watch and to observe how you um, en— encounter different circumstances, and you step back, it's clear, and you think. And you think about: what can I do to bring a meaningful conversation into these relationships I'm going to have? I think it's clear too, don't you think, to to finish our a wonderful discussion today, that when you get in front of an orchestra, don't they mostly know that you're a virtuoso cellist as well? Do you think that makes any dif— bit of difference? Among the string players. I'm not asking you about the— the trombone, the third trombone, but I'm just curious.
Eric Jacobsen: I— I think there's absolutely mutual respect when it comes to the recognition of what it does to become excellent at something. And, you know, sometimes now, uh, talking to a very young, hopeful conductor, like a 15-year-old who says, "I want to be a conductor," that seems odd to me, because, and— and everyone goes through their own process, but if I hadn't become a cellist, if I hadn't honed the skills to be um, good enough to be a musician on at playing instrument, playing an instrument, that was my, as you started this conversation, coming up in the opera ranks. Like, I didn't come up in the opera ranks, I came up in the instrumental, um, um, uh, chamber/uh, uh, um, orchestra, chamber orchestra, string quartet world, yeah.
Michael Shapiro: Freelance New York musician.
Eric Jacobsen: Yeah. And I, uh, there's no question that my respect on the podium for all the musicians who are there, who are playing, is like, gosh, you have to— you have to hone that skill. Every day, you go home, and you just go like this, because, and maybe it's not to get better, maybe it's just to be able to do that as well as you could. And then, maybe two days later, it is actually a step forward, and you always want to be better as a musician. How does one do that? And so, if I— I— I hope that while I'm there on that podium, I exude that respect, and I hope that that's recognized because we have to. Uh, you know, there— this is such a hard thing. It's an Olympic athletic, you know, sprint every time you actually are playing an instrument, and we don't think about that so much. I mean, how many great basketball players are there? How many great oboists are there? It's— it's, you know, it's not that many. And you think about, well, clearly, there could be more great basketball players, there could be more great oboists. But boy, does it take a lot to decide that that's the direction you're going to go in your life. So, I hope that what you're saying, um, does come across, which is a mutual respect of, ooh!, that's a lot. And, you know, I'll say this, I, um, I hope that I translate that. I think a lot of it has to do with my father, um, being a violinist, uh, in the Met Opera for so long, and telling me just couple little things throughout the years that are just so bothersome. You know, a conductor who corrects mistakes. Like, that's unnecessary, because someone plays a B-flat instead of a B-natural, it's like, yeah, the next time they'll play it right, there's no— and there— it's a waste of time to— to— to let people know that you know that they made a mistake. It's just ridiculous. 'Cause, I mean, if something happens two times, three times, okay, maybe it's a misprint, maybe someone had, you know, had some weird recording in their mind, it's just a mistake. That's, oh, fine. But, you know, um, when we're there and doing something together, the idea that one makes a mistake and it's a big deal, it doesn't matter. You know, you're spending time, you're rehearsing, you're getting to a shared mutual understanding of where you're going, it's so much more important than letting people know that you know you played a wrong note. So, I hope that as a conductor, that's— that is translated from— from, you know, from having played an instrument.
Michael Shapiro: No, it's very— it's fascinating. Is it also very interesting about the role of the conductor, because let's talk about that, just for a few seconds and then we have to go. You know, you're up there trying to, in a word, impose, in a way, your view of how a piece should go. How it should breathe, how it should— how the speed of— of it, you know, the nature of it, the very essence of it. And there are 60, 70, 80, who knows how many, in front of you, who you want to melt to your will, but at the same time, and this is the rub, this is the genius of it, you need their input back at you. Their input back at you is not only your input to them, it's a— that's that pressure in the baton that I was talking about, the Harry Potter-Voldemort moment. So to end, talk about that— that mindset that you have to have when you start a new piece with a fresh orchestra, not people you know already. I assume with your three ensembles, you know, that— that back and forth is very easy, but let's say it's the first time going before the X— X City Symphony, you know, hard-nosed players, you're there, you put it down, it's a minute—you've got a minute and a half to show them, you know, what you're doing. Talk about that. What's in your head?
Eric Jacobsen: Ha! Well, I— I'll give the the most obvious answer that I could think of, is that you get right to work and do music, and you— you do the thing that you have to do, uh, because you just have to. And sometimes it's awkward at first, just like any other relationship, you know, you— you be there, you do that thing. And I— and I really think that, you know, that, uh, that idea of surrounding yourself and embracing different ideas and really, really great, great musicians and great players and great minds, you know, it's like Lincoln surrounding himself with a cabinet of people who disagreed, because—
Michael Shapiro: Cabinet of Rivals, yeah.
Eric Jacobsen: What's that?
Michael Shapiro: Team of Rivals, yeah.
Eric Jacobsen: Exactly. Yeah, you end up having a— a group of people that will end up not compromising, you will end up with a group of people whose opinions are so strong that they have to actually really decide what— no, it's not, we're not going to— I want it loud, I want it soft. Okay, let's play it in between. Well, that's not better. So how do you actually figure out what is better? And with an orchestra, I think it's so important to try to get that, right? It's not just I— I mean, there's— there's no— there's not enough time in the world to give everyone an exact idea of what you want as a conductor, it's ridiculous. Because generally speaking, in most pieces, you show up on the podium, if— if you haven't just centered in and only done that one piece of music your whole life, quite likely, many people in the orchestra have played the piece as many times as you, or have played it many more times than you, and there's such um, institutional memory as— as musicians, mhm, that needs to be activated. And therefore, the chance of learning something and actually taking more away than you're able to give is, well, guilt-inducing and beautiful. The idea that, like, you can possibly participate in something that actually the oboists, they had there, they knew, they knew all along. And now you know. So the next time you go and you're with a group that hasn't done it so much, you might be able to say, "Hey, there's this one time that, you know, um, Jane was playing and I was so impressed with this and this is what they did." And— and, oh! And that's actually the beauty of how communication is super slow and across generations. Yes, we have the internet, yes, we can email, yes, we can text and everything is instantaneous, but the oral tradition of music is one that's often about, you know, words spoken and then sounds heard, and going back and forth. So, you know, it's why, you know, we talk about, oh, that version of that with the Vienna Philharmonic was 60 years away from when Brahms was alive, and therefore, there's this, and those are such beautiful things and should be embraced. And I, uh, wouldn't it be nice if if the world was able to have that as um, a more formal way of communicating, not just the um, the social media, um, and the dangers of not actually looking at someone in the eye?
Michael Shapiro: Well, I— I— I love your sincerity and the way you approach things. I think the answer is, frankly, when you get in front of that group for the first time, or even the hundredth time, there's a sincerity that you bring to it, which you've shown on again on on our talk today. I can't thank you enough, Eric Jacobsen, for— for being on this broadcast with me.
Eric Jacobsen: Thank you so much, Michael. It's just such a total pleasure. Can't wait to see you again in a concert hall, there.
Michael Shapiro: Would that be nice? (Shapiro laughs) Eric Jacobsen, musician extraordinaire, thank you so much for joining me on Interplay: Conversations in Music.
Eric Jacobsen: Thank you so much for having me. Total pleasure.
Michael Shapiro: I'm Michael Shapiro, your host, looking forward to seeing you again on Interplay: Conversations in Music. Thank you for joining us.
