After Math: What Matters When the Numbers Don’t | Ted Dintersmith

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hello, and welcome
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to the Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy
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Mikla, and I'm joined by co -host David Berner.
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And with our special guest today, we have Ted
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Dintersmith. Ted is a venture capitalist education
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reformer, a film producer. He's an author of
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several books, and we're gonna get into some
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of those today, but they include Aftermath, What
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School Could Be, and Most Likely to Succeed.
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Ted, we're really happy to have you on, and glad
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you could join us today. No, I'm thrilled to
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be here. Yeah, so Ted, what we kind of like to
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do is let our guests kind of kick things off
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and kind of describe the journey that your path
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to today has taken. why you decided to come on
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our and agree to be on our program here, you
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know, like, what is that background that led
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you from, you know, being a venture capitalist?
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I don't know if we've had one of those as a guest
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on our show today. But to your credit, no. Yeah,
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yeah. And, you know, in your path from there
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to being an education reformer. Yeah. Well, you
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may have an audience member too older than I
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am, but I go back a ways. And so schoolwork for
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me, I was in school for a long time, somewhat
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remedial. I went through 21 grades of it before
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I finally got out. And then I spent almost the
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entirety of my money -making career in technology
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innovation. I was with a startup chip manufacturer
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that made, of all things, fast chips to multiply
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numbers together. We'll get back to that later
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in our discussion. And then Adventure Capital,
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which was actually a great field for me. I was
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in venture for 25 years, backing a whole set
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of one or two or three person startups, often
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with some sort of math proprietary edge. All
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that was great. And I never really thought I
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would go back to anything related to school.
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I mean, 21 years was enough, right? Like, how
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much do you need? And then when my kids got to
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middle school, I kind of went from trusting to
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being concerned to being alarmed to feeling like
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this is really deeply off base. And as I started
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to wind down from venture capital, I was looking
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for something else to do. And I felt like I had
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the ability to see what technology innovation
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could do and how fast it was getting better,
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and to understand not so much from the educator
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perspective, but from the world context perspective,
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what skills and mindsets young adults would need.
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And when I saw that there was just this gaping
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disconnect, I felt like I needed to do something,
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which led me to start with the film, Most Likely
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to Succeed, write several books, form a nonprofit,
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do subsequent films. and basically be an advocate
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for priorities in schools that I think teachers
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want, that students desperately need, that parents
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are coming around to understanding are important,
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but fly directly in the face of standardized
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tests and an entrenched bureaucracy. Yeah, I
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could just kind of picture you, you know, like
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when we're recording this, it's still kind of
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in that back to school kind of mode of the school
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year. And I just thought my daughter who's in
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college had one of these signs, you know, to
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post on Facebook. Today is my first day of 16th
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grade. What I was imagining was your sign that
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said first day of 21st grade. Took a while. Yeah,
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yeah, but you know that background definitely
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lends itself to a lot of experience in the education
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world and you start to gain kind of a perspective
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there. Is there Is there something else with
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maybe your background in math that led you to
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kind of identify some of those flaws within our
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current system? Yeah, let me start with a general
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point and then a specific to math point. The
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general point is this. I got out of high school
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in 1970. And in 1970, 99 % of the jobs in the
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economy were wrote jobs. And in 1970, the demands
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to be an informed citizen boiled down to which
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is two newspapers you read. or which of two or
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three news stations you watched. It was a much
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slimmer world. And in that world, an education
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regimen that prioritized rote skills, rote learning,
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actually made sense. And I think it largely explains
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why our nation did so well through much of the
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last century. Today, rote jobs are almost entirely
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gone. I mean, they are disappearing fast. And
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the complexities and challenges of being an informed
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citizen are enormously more difficult than they
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used to be. And to me, that dramatic change in
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the context of our world demands deeply rethinking
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the priorities of school, which we have failed
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to do to a large extent. The math, I think, is
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really, you know, I can tell the story of math
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with a simple movie or film most people are familiar
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with. There was a book written by Margot Shatterly
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called Hidden Figures. turned into a film, both
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were remarkable. These incredibly talented Black
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women who were superb at doing hairball math
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calculations by hand, which is not easy. And
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for the space missions, they were the ones who
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had to do triple integrals quickly, accurately,
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paper and pencil, maybe a slide rule. And those
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missions depended on their ability to do that.
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Around 1970, those women, Katherine Johnson most
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notably, Saw the future right? They saw the the
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vacuum tube computers going over to the IBM mainframes
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and they said like all of these things that we're
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good at are quickly becoming irrelevant and they
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moved on and NASA moved on the space missions
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moved on basically the world moved on other than
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schools and schools to this day continue to push
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kids to excel at low level math mechanics for
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tests where they have to do those mechanics quickly
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and accurately by hand. And you realize, wait
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a minute, why would we not modernize math curriculum
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in a world that says, hey, your phone does all
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the rope mechanics. What's really important is
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to understand the ideas. And I think math, in
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many ways, is a poster child for our collective
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failure to adapt school priorities to a very
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different world. Do you think there's a component
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of that, too, where math kind of gets a bad rap.
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You either get math or you don't get math. And
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either you can do those road calculations or
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you can't, which then I think kind of leads some
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students and even adults to have this fear of
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math, like, ooh, it's math. I'm not good at it.
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I'm never going to be good at it. And then maybe
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they approach it with kind of that closed mindset.
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Yeah. You know, several years ago, I took this
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a bit of a crazy trip, but I spent an entire
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school year and I went to all 50 states in 10
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and a half months, visited 200 schools and had
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thousands of conversations. And over and over,
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I would hear from people about math. I mean,
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math doesn't touch people lightly. Everybody
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has their math story. And when you just say the
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word math to people, it evokes strong emotions.
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And you'll find some where math was their best
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friend in school. It was mine, you know, like
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the ability to do initially early grades a bunch
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of multiplications quickly by hand Then be able
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to move to long division by hand to get the quotient
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in the remainder. You know, some people can do
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that really well Looking back and even looking
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at things the world today. I mean, it's irrelevant,
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right? Nobody needs to divide one thousand eight
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hundred and sixteen into twenty four thousand
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eight hundred and nineteen and get the quotient
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remainder I mean, but other than on your test
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But so many people would say what you just said,
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well, you know, I'm just not a math person. And
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I think more importantly, and some would share
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this quite personally, their math classes made
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them feel really stupid, made them feel like
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somehow they were lacking in something important.
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And the number of conversations I had with people,
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people would often be in tears talking about
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their math experience. And often it took this
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form, like I was good up until. And then they
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got to a class where the abstract formalism was
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too much and the teacher couldn't bring it to
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life for them or they didn't have parents hiring
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a tutor or whatever. And they just sort of hit
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that math wall. And if math were an elective,
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if math were sort of off on the side, that'd
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be one thing. But it's half the SATs. It's half
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the high stakes, you know, nation's report card
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exams. It's half of what every superintendent
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is held accountable to. And so those math scores
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get equated to somebody's intelligence. And when
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your math score isn't very good, because you
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can't do low -level procedures quickly and accurately
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by hand, when that score isn't good, it's very
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hard for a 13-, 14-, 15 -year -old to look beyond
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that. And they would just say, hey, in important
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ways, I'm not smart. And when that builds into
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your self -image and self -esteem, the ripples
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are substantial and far reaching. So Ted, one
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of the things that Jeremy and I, we get an opportunity
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to talk to a lot of folks on the podcast about
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how we can make school better for students. And
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so I'm kind of curious, what are the things that,
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as you've worked with a lot of different schools,
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varying states, What are the things that you
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find that set apart classrooms that really give
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students what they need, that engage them more?
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That's one thing that's come up on the podcast
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recently and before as well is like, how do you
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engage students? How do you make sure that they
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have multiple opportunities for ways that they
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themselves learn? Because there's varying, you
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know, preferences of learning and things like
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that. What are the things that you found that
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are their common traits that set apart classrooms
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that really give students agency and engage them
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more? Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I've
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done my best. I have tried hard not to just be
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the person throwing bricks at the system as it
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exists. And so my books and my films almost the
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entirety of those works is to highlight bright
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spots. You know, my book that I wrote after that
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trip is called What School Could Be, but the
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subtitle is Insights and Inspiration from Teachers
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Across America. And I feel like if you can show
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people bright spots, which we did in the film
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Most Likely to Succeed, which we've done in the
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more recent film, the film that came out a few
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months ago, Multiple Choice, which is on PBS
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stations all around the country right now. We
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go deep into places where teachers are trusted
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to teach to their passions and their expertise,
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not held to some day -by -day curriculum, where
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students are encouraged to explore their interest
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and go deep and far with what they find interesting,
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to develop skills that actually will serve them
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well as adults, where there's a sense of purpose
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that just runs through those classrooms or schools
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or even districts. In showing those bright spots,
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what I hope is we're able to get people excited,
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to not have them say, oh, we could never do this,
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or it's not really possible, or a million different
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ways we'd like to rationalize why we can't move
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beyond obsolete, to say, hey, it's happening
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probably in your school, definitely in your district.
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You can find great teachers, probably the two
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of you. You can find these great examples everywhere.
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This isn't something we need to invent from scratch.
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It's there. The issue is teachers who do that,
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principals who do that, even superintendents,
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the rare superintendents that do that are cutting
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against the grain. But you have to be a bit bold.
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You have to be willing to go rogue. You have
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to say, I don't really care if I'm not on chapter
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18, section 12 on November 9th. And what I found
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is I traveled and I asked people about those
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great bright spots. They were things that the
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teacher believed in deeply, and the teacher had
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the support of their principal. Or if it was
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at the school level, it was a model the principal
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believed was terribly important to prepare kids
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for the world they're going to be adults in,
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with somebody else, the parent body, the superintendent,
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if it was a public district, having their back.
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And so it's not like nuclear fusion, where we
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spent 50, 60 years trying to invent it. It's
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right in front of us, right? You've seen it.
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I've seen it. I'm sure many of your guests exhibit
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it. We know what to do. It's just when it doesn't
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conform with an entrenched model, and when the
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entire focus isn't chasing higher test scores,
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it can be very fatiguing for the teacher or the
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principal who's pushing that agenda. And unfortunately,
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what you find is somebody will make a lot of
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progress. But when they move on, you know, the
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principal moves to a different school or the
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classroom teacher, yeah, you know, out of, they're
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in those classrooms out of pure dedication. I
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mean, I absolutely love classroom teachers. I'm
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very proud to have been, as a business guy, right,
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as a business guy, I'm the only business guy
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to get the NEA Friend of Education Award, which
00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:30.500
went to Thurgood Marshall and LBJ. Sitting right
00:14:30.500 --> 00:14:33.289
there is my... an award I got in June from the
00:14:33.289 --> 00:14:35.929
National Teachers Hall of Fame. And I think the
00:14:35.929 --> 00:14:39.659
reason they admire me is that I show what they
00:14:39.659 --> 00:14:43.370
can do at their best. I present that in the context
00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:47.549
of what we should no longer be doing. And I respect
00:14:47.549 --> 00:14:49.909
and understand that the people in the field doing
00:14:49.909 --> 00:14:52.330
the hard work are the real experts. And my role
00:14:52.330 --> 00:14:55.450
through films and books is only to amplify the
00:14:55.450 --> 00:14:59.169
power of what they're doing. So I have kind of
00:14:59.169 --> 00:15:01.799
a follow -up question for you. that ties in a
00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:04.240
little bit there is something that I've been
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.340
wondering a lot over the years is do we do we
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:12.039
keep students in school for too long? You know,
00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:14.720
like one of the things that I think about is
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.080
we have kind of a system where you know, obviously
00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.960
they're in their K through 12th grade. So, you
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.820
know, typically five to 18 years old. But then
00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:26.639
we have the workforce typically is going to be
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.159
starting at 16. We have some students that go
00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:34.019
pseo we have and and I would say too there's
00:15:34.019 --> 00:15:37.679
also element of where we really for a while there
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.820
and I'm not I'm out of the classroom for a while
00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:44.000
now um directly but we've pushed a lot of kids
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.659
to go to college and I'm kind of wondering your
00:15:46.659 --> 00:15:49.759
take on do we not provide enough avenues for
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.379
students once they hit more that 16 mark where
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:55.519
they could do some like vocational school options
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:59.440
or you know or be out in the workforce more so
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.940
because there's so many kids that you know they're
00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:04.559
not they're not ready for college like I myself
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.100
being one of them like I didn't start college
00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:08.639
right away until I was like 20 because I just
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.340
worked for a while after and a lot of times too
00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:13.940
when you go to college it's always been interesting
00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:16.740
to me how you you take all these classes your
00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:20.320
K through 12th grade career at high school and
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:22.919
all that And then the first thing you have to
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.000
do for the first two years of college is take
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.100
more general courses, which is just basically
00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:29.019
what you've been doing for the last how many
00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:31.919
years. So I'm just curious your take on that.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.340
And if you feel like there should be more avenues
00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:39.120
for students and is it kind of a broken way of
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.840
doing things, I guess, you know, where we have
00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.179
them continue to stay there and then push them
00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:46.720
to college. Yeah. Well, let me start with Kate
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.340
through 12 and then come to post. In K through
00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:53.779
12, first, if there's one insight I've gained
00:16:53.779 --> 00:16:56.659
in my travels, it's when students are engaged,
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.440
they learn. And when they're bored, it doesn't
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.379
matter what you do to try to make them retain
00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:05.180
the content they don't learn. And so, you know,
00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:07.619
I often contrast, imagine if you said to students,
00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:11.099
you have to be in school during the summer. If
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:14.640
students said, fantastic, we love it here. Versus,
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.009
are you kidding? I can't wait to be done. You
00:17:18.009 --> 00:17:19.690
know, I mean, it would be a world of difference.
00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:22.029
And that can be done, right? You know, when I
00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:23.930
visit these bright spots, when I see them in
00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:26.250
action, these kids are not counting the days
00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:28.170
till they're out of school. They're like, they
00:17:28.170 --> 00:17:30.789
feel a deep sense of purpose. They're building
00:17:30.789 --> 00:17:32.910
self -confidence. They see the skills they're
00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:34.509
developing and know those skills are going to
00:17:34.509 --> 00:17:36.690
be really important. So during those K through
00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:40.289
12 years, it's not more or less, it's what? And
00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:42.670
the film, Multiple Choice, worth highlighting
00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:46.940
here, shows this public school in Winchester,
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.140
Virginia, A community that reflects, I think,
00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:52.819
what's going on in America, a lot of free and
00:17:52.819 --> 00:17:55.299
reduced lunch kids, I think it's like 87 % are
00:17:55.299 --> 00:17:57.519
on free lunch, so it's not a well -off district.
00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.740
But what that superintendent did, a guy named
00:18:00.740 --> 00:18:04.160
Jason Van Heukelum, is he was able to convince
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:07.460
the district that it was important to immerse
00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:11.400
all kids in career -based learning. So every
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:13.059
kid in high school, whether they're planning
00:18:13.059 --> 00:18:15.259
to go to college or planning to go directly in
00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:17.890
career, spends meaningful amounts of time in
00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:20.470
something they call not the vocational ed center
00:18:20.470 --> 00:18:22.430
or the career and technical education center,
00:18:22.769 --> 00:18:25.190
they call it the innovation center. And so you'll
00:18:25.190 --> 00:18:28.509
have kids going to college taking lots of carpentry
00:18:28.509 --> 00:18:30.710
and welding, and you'll have kids who want to
00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:33.849
be carpenters, you know, getting really good
00:18:33.849 --> 00:18:35.849
writing skills in that innovation center of all
00:18:35.849 --> 00:18:38.609
things. But the important thing there is that
00:18:38.609 --> 00:18:40.529
whether you plan to go to college or not, you
00:18:40.529 --> 00:18:43.109
hit the ground running. And so there are kids
00:18:43.109 --> 00:18:48.220
that find their lane in carpentry can move on
00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:51.180
to a great job without more years of education.
00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:53.779
We have one student who was never gonna finish
00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:56.680
high school who finds his way into a firefighter's
00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:01.220
academy there. He graduates, great. He gets a
00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:04.980
job, a full -time job with the local firefighting
00:19:04.980 --> 00:19:07.880
station, great. We find out after the film is
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:09.819
done that he and his mom his last two years of
00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:12.690
high school lived in a car. They can now live
00:19:12.690 --> 00:19:15.190
some, you know, it's like these are life -changing
00:19:15.190 --> 00:19:18.130
stories. The power and the reason I did a documentary
00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:22.549
on it is it's the power of all. It's if you say
00:19:22.549 --> 00:19:25.670
those kids are gonna do these hands -on skills,
00:19:26.269 --> 00:19:28.430
but the kids we really celebrate are gonna be
00:19:28.430 --> 00:19:31.109
in the AP courses and we're gonna put on a website
00:19:31.109 --> 00:19:34.230
which kids got into which college. You treat
00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:37.269
kids who are pursuing a really interesting path
00:19:37.269 --> 00:19:39.869
as second -class citizens. And if you look around
00:19:39.869 --> 00:19:41.809
your community, I mean, who holds your community
00:19:41.809 --> 00:19:45.089
together? It is the people who build the houses,
00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:48.009
the people who come and fix your electrical system
00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:50.490
or the people who make sure your house stays
00:19:50.490 --> 00:19:52.450
cool during the summer or heated during the winter.
00:19:53.009 --> 00:19:57.609
And so we have that opportunity to rethink the
00:19:57.609 --> 00:20:00.829
priorities of high school. And I think every
00:20:00.829 --> 00:20:02.789
school in the country, every high school should
00:20:02.789 --> 00:20:06.309
be emulating in their own way that model where
00:20:06.309 --> 00:20:09.920
kids sit side by side. in an experience that
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:12.700
challenges them to go deep, find the things they're
00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:14.779
really interested in, connect those to career
00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:17.140
paths. And I think most importantly, respect
00:20:17.140 --> 00:20:21.579
the fact that I might be good at some math in
00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:24.380
school and the person next to me might be just
00:20:24.380 --> 00:20:26.980
like my dad, my dad was a carpenter, might be
00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:29.380
really good at woodworking. And we understand
00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:31.160
that we can be intelligent in very different
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.920
ways. I think the power, and I'm... doing my
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:37.259
best to elevate this to some sort of a national
00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:41.099
agenda. If you follow that with a year of mandatory
00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:44.119
national service, every time I write about or
00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.619
talk about national service, all I get are high
00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:49.380
fives from people. Why aren't we doing this?
00:20:49.700 --> 00:20:52.400
And you can imagine all the young adults that
00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.240
feel cut off, that feel like there isn't a great
00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.339
path for them forward, that are, as you say,
00:20:57.619 --> 00:20:59.519
told you've got to go to college and drop out
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.839
with debt or. go through the motions for four
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.859
years and leave with a lot of debt, no sense
00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:06.880
of direction. If you followed career -based learning
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.880
in high school with a year of giving back to
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.579
your community, as you further develop hireable
00:21:12.579 --> 00:21:15.440
skills, those kids that go to college will have
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.299
a much more informed view of what they want to
00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:19.619
get out of it. And the kids that decide college
00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:22.720
doesn't need to be their path are off and running.
00:21:24.180 --> 00:21:26.460
Whether we have too much or too little, I will
00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:31.029
say this, why to this day our colleges still
00:21:31.029 --> 00:21:35.650
sit on four years of mandatory seat time, you
00:21:35.650 --> 00:21:38.430
know, distribution requirements, prerequisites,
00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:41.230
instead of some degree of competency -based learning.
00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:44.299
You know, it's like, no, you should be rethinking
00:21:44.299 --> 00:21:47.000
what it means to be a college graduate. And it
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.160
doesn't have to be four years. And we should
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.299
be giving a lot more respect to somebody who
00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:54.559
perhaps gets a community college and associates
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.559
degree in two years and is often running on a
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.910
great path. And those paths don't have to be
00:21:59.910 --> 00:22:04.650
jobs you look down. You can become an expert
00:22:04.650 --> 00:22:07.730
on artificial intelligence in six months. That's
00:22:07.730 --> 00:22:10.769
a great career start. I think that there's just
00:22:10.769 --> 00:22:12.849
a failure of imagination. There's just sort of
00:22:12.849 --> 00:22:15.089
like, this is the way we've always done it, so
00:22:15.089 --> 00:22:17.109
this is the way we're going to keep doing it
00:22:17.109 --> 00:22:20.269
until eventually the wheels completely fall off,
00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:22.930
in which case we'll look for somebody else to
00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:27.190
blame. And I don't wanna keep ripping on college,
00:22:27.750 --> 00:22:30.250
but because I do find - Go for it. No, no, it
00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:32.490
needs to be - I do think it's valuable, right?
00:22:33.349 --> 00:22:35.789
Obviously, there's value to it. The only thing
00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:38.589
that I'm thinking about, and I wanna get your
00:22:38.589 --> 00:22:40.630
take on this too, because you kind of alluded
00:22:40.630 --> 00:22:45.450
to it there, was for colleges, is it sometimes
00:22:45.450 --> 00:22:50.569
just about the money? Because if I think back
00:22:50.569 --> 00:22:52.730
at my teaching degree, and I don't know how Jeremy
00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:55.779
feels, But there was a core group of classes
00:22:55.779 --> 00:23:00.579
like my pedagogy classes and some of the like
00:23:00.579 --> 00:23:03.819
the social studies block of classes that were
00:23:03.819 --> 00:23:09.849
pretty essential prior to my actual like in the
00:23:09.849 --> 00:23:12.630
field experience, which honestly the in the field
00:23:12.630 --> 00:23:14.410
experience was there probably should have been
00:23:14.410 --> 00:23:16.309
the vast majority of my time in college should
00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:18.309
have been that because that was the most valuable
00:23:18.309 --> 00:23:21.009
was the actual like doing of the teaching, right?
00:23:21.210 --> 00:23:23.849
like the 20 hour field experience, 100 hour field
00:23:23.849 --> 00:23:25.490
experience and the student teaching, like that
00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:27.289
was the most beneficial. And then second to that
00:23:27.289 --> 00:23:30.430
would be like the pedagogy. Although the pedagogy
00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:32.269
obviously informs that, so they're complimentary,
00:23:32.369 --> 00:23:34.569
but all those things were extremely important.
00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:37.170
But I took so many classes that I spent money
00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:39.289
on that didn't really have anything to do with
00:23:39.289 --> 00:23:42.589
any of that. So are you kind of, is that your
00:23:42.589 --> 00:23:44.869
take two where it's like, can we have more of
00:23:44.869 --> 00:23:48.170
a focused approach to the goal? Let me talk about
00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:50.210
a couple of things. One, first, the funnel is
00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:53.990
important to highlight here. These are US statistics.
00:23:54.049 --> 00:23:57.710
Start with 1 ,000 kids in the US today. 100 never
00:23:57.710 --> 00:24:00.549
finish high school. They're in a world of hurt.
00:24:01.130 --> 00:24:04.589
Of the 900 who finish high school, 350 go directly
00:24:04.589 --> 00:24:07.690
to career. But they're often in college prep
00:24:07.690 --> 00:24:11.029
high schools. So career means Chick -fil -A,
00:24:11.230 --> 00:24:13.529
not an apprentice job with the local electrician.
00:24:13.890 --> 00:24:16.529
So out of those 350, most of them with our current
00:24:16.529 --> 00:24:21.779
model are hurting. Now you're down to 450 to
00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:24.799
go to college. Half don't finish. So let's say
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.579
out of that 550, 275 don't finish. They often
00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:30.799
leave with debt and not a whole lot to show for
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.839
it. So now we've got 275 who finish. 10 years
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.259
later, half earn a job consistent with a high
00:24:36.259 --> 00:24:39.039
school degree, not a college degree. And so you're
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:44.180
down to like 140 who finish college. get a job
00:24:44.180 --> 00:24:46.579
consistent with a college degree, often still
00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:48.859
paying off debt. You know, there are 3 million
00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:51.420
adults in America over age 62 still paying off
00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:54.460
student loan debt. And so does it work for some?
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.559
I think it works for some. But when people tell
00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:59.880
me, and many do, that of course everyone needs
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.319
to have a college degree, I say, A, look at the
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:05.640
funnel, and B, read Richard Arum and Josepha
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:09.259
Rox's book, Academically Adrift, where they look
00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:11.720
at how much is really learned by most kids in
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:14.430
college. And they conclude that it's shockingly
00:25:14.430 --> 00:25:17.349
little. Yet, you see these innovative models.
00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:19.849
I'm a big fan of Northeastern with their co -op
00:25:19.849 --> 00:25:24.009
model. So length of school, you actually spend
00:25:24.009 --> 00:25:26.230
typically five years to get your Northeastern
00:25:26.230 --> 00:25:29.549
college degree, not four. But of those five years,
00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:32.549
two to two and a half are internships often paid.
00:25:33.069 --> 00:25:35.029
So you're really only doing two and a half years
00:25:35.029 --> 00:25:38.950
or so of classroom time. But you have explored
00:25:38.950 --> 00:25:41.990
different careers, hit the ground running. it's
00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:45.430
a fantastic model that costs a lot less and far
00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:47.910
better to prepare students. But Northeastern,
00:25:47.970 --> 00:25:49.549
I mean, they have a few others that have sort
00:25:49.549 --> 00:25:53.369
of in that camp with that model, but most are
00:25:53.369 --> 00:25:57.849
large lecture halls, academic content, delivered
00:25:57.849 --> 00:26:00.230
to students by somebody who talks at them for
00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:03.289
45 minutes with a fact -based recall exam that
00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:05.430
basically says, do you remember what I told you
00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:08.230
and can you say it back? So the college model
00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:10.829
is in urgent need of innovation. And I think
00:26:10.829 --> 00:26:13.509
you're going to see real pressure, because as
00:26:13.509 --> 00:26:16.869
the number of college -age kids goes down, as
00:26:16.869 --> 00:26:18.970
we make it much harder for Ford students to come
00:26:18.970 --> 00:26:22.349
to the US, enrollments are going to drop, and
00:26:22.349 --> 00:26:25.549
many colleges are just going to be on their backs
00:26:25.549 --> 00:26:29.589
financially. Since we're on this thread of the
00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:33.369
higher education institutions and stuff, I've
00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:36.500
had this feeling here for a while that higher
00:26:36.500 --> 00:26:40.490
ed really needs to start thinking of itself as
00:26:40.490 --> 00:26:45.690
being an outlet for lifelong learning and retraining
00:26:45.690 --> 00:26:49.589
and maybe even micro credentialing people for
00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:52.650
changes in career paths that they're going to
00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:54.329
have over the course of their lifetime. I think
00:26:54.329 --> 00:26:57.069
they get stuck in this idea that they they have
00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:00.869
to be just for that group that is 18 to early
00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:05.140
20s. But you know you start to look at the the
00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:07.660
world that these kids that are graduating either
00:27:07.660 --> 00:27:09.740
from high school or college, and even people
00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:13.680
like myself, like in their 50s, 50 now, like
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.599
I might want to shift the types of things that
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:19.380
I'm doing. What sort of new experiences can I
00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:22.119
find and where can I find the training and support
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:24.920
that I need to get to that point? And so it doesn't
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.420
necessarily have to be a losing proposition that,
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:29.440
you know, we're not going to get this huge sum
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.859
of money from this group that's going to go into
00:27:31.859 --> 00:27:35.640
debt, but rather I want to find pathways to allow
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:39.519
for them to be able to advance their livelihoods
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:41.779
over the next, you know, how long are people
00:27:41.779 --> 00:27:45.099
going to work? 40, 50 years? Yeah. No, bingo.
00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:48.059
I think that's an excellent point. And suddenly
00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:50.859
these colleges, you know, particularly the ones
00:27:50.859 --> 00:27:53.980
that are really hard to get into, if they offered
00:27:53.980 --> 00:27:57.299
shorter birth micro credentials, far more students
00:27:57.299 --> 00:27:59.799
would benefit from an experience at College X
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.230
that right now is limited to 1500 students per
00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:05.609
year with most, you know, one of the things I
00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:09.119
think we've done enormous damage to young kids
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:12.079
with is the college admissions process. And so,
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:14.000
you know, when you go to high schools, it's really
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.660
like, oh, these kids got into the Ivy League
00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:19.700
school and parents buy into that and the community
00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:23.500
buys into that. And so many of these kids are
00:28:23.500 --> 00:28:27.000
basically told if you don't get into one of 12
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.180
or one of 30 exclusive colleges, you've somehow
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:33.200
fallen short. And so we're pushing these kids
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.099
by the age of 18 to be Olympic athletes and patent
00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:42.079
holders and published research authors and, by
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.359
the way, and built a hospital in Haiti on the
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:47.819
side. And that's not normal childhood, right?
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:50.720
I mean, we're really literally wrecking these
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:54.750
kids' childhoods by pushing them to be far further
00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.630
along at age 18 than makes any sense at all.
00:28:57.990 --> 00:29:00.750
And I look back, you know, my generation, so
00:29:00.750 --> 00:29:04.529
back to 1970 when we graduated, most of my classmates,
00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:06.470
when I, when I talked to my classmates and say,
00:29:07.089 --> 00:29:10.279
do you remember doing homework? Generally, the
00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:13.779
answer is, I think I did some, you know, but
00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:16.559
very little. You know, did you take the SAT?
00:29:17.259 --> 00:29:19.759
Well, you know, like my, I'm an example, took
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.470
it once, no prep. You know, we all were reading
00:29:22.470 --> 00:29:23.970
the booklet at the beginning trying to figure
00:29:23.970 --> 00:29:26.289
out what the heck this was about. You know, my
00:29:26.289 --> 00:29:28.630
high school had two AP courses where it wasn't
00:29:28.630 --> 00:29:30.630
curriculum driven and nobody really cared about
00:29:30.630 --> 00:29:33.089
the scores, but it was kind of like some kids
00:29:33.089 --> 00:29:35.349
that were really interested in English took the
00:29:35.349 --> 00:29:38.589
course. And it's like, did that cause this enormous
00:29:38.589 --> 00:29:42.109
lack of on damage? Did somehow the vintage of
00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:45.190
young adults coming out of schools in 1970 do
00:29:45.190 --> 00:29:47.910
way worse than they're, I mean, we're ruining
00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:51.539
kids' mental health. to push them toward this
00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:54.220
goal of getting into an incredibly exclusive
00:29:54.220 --> 00:29:57.259
college that is sitting on a massive endowment
00:29:57.259 --> 00:30:00.420
with a total failure to visualize how they could
00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:03.319
expand and support far more students benefiting
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.319
from that experience. And I just say like, to
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:09.359
what end, right? I mean, why do you have this
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:13.299
so upside down? And the price we pay for that
00:30:13.299 --> 00:30:16.099
is enormous. And just talk to any family with
00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:19.440
a kid who's 17. And they'll tell you that my
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.309
kid's going through hell. And everybody's bearing
00:30:22.309 --> 00:30:24.730
down on them. For which colleges are you applying
00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:27.430
to? And what have you heard? Where are you applying?
00:30:27.970 --> 00:30:30.109
If you mention elite colleges, it's like, where
00:30:30.109 --> 00:30:32.829
are you applying? That's great. If you were to
00:30:32.829 --> 00:30:35.269
say, you know, I'm not going to go to college.
00:30:35.410 --> 00:30:37.750
And say like, you know, boy, those parents have
00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:39.450
let that kid down. I mean, like such bullshit.
00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:43.019
I don't know what words you're okay with here.
00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:46.039
But I mean, it's really, it's so unfortunate.
00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:49.740
And these kids, they get that, right? They're
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:51.920
not getting enough sleep. They're not able to
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:55.160
have time for free exploration. They're not able
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.079
to go deep on something they care about because
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:01.279
that will take an hour away from to math, studying
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.519
arc secants and the chain, you know, a bunch
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.559
of math they're never gonna use as an adult.
00:31:06.089 --> 00:31:08.630
somehow takes priority over the things that bring
00:31:08.630 --> 00:31:10.730
them joy and purpose and equip them with skills
00:31:10.730 --> 00:31:15.460
that matter. And knowing that, which I know it,
00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:18.099
being able to write books, which I think I do
00:31:18.099 --> 00:31:19.960
a great job of writing books, being able to make
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:23.019
films, I feel an obligation to speak out about
00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:27.019
that because somebody has to, right? So what
00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:31.130
do I mean? So I have a son who graduated high
00:31:31.130 --> 00:31:35.789
school in 2021. there through COVID, and then
00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:40.150
my daughter who graduated in 2023, and neither
00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:44.710
one of them had to submit an ACT or an SAT score
00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.809
on their college applications because that went
00:31:47.809 --> 00:31:51.809
away during COVID. Well, they both took the ACT
00:31:51.809 --> 00:31:56.130
test, and because their scores were not very
00:31:56.130 --> 00:31:59.109
good, you know, they decided not to submit them.
00:31:59.109 --> 00:32:02.750
It was optional, right? And now we hear, and
00:32:02.890 --> 00:32:05.789
By the way, my son graduated in four years with
00:32:05.789 --> 00:32:08.269
a physics degree from a great university here
00:32:08.269 --> 00:32:12.829
in Minnesota and is doing, is doing well. He's
00:32:12.829 --> 00:32:15.390
got, he's got a job. You know, he wants to be
00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:20.390
challenged. He wants to be challenged a little
00:32:20.390 --> 00:32:23.049
bit more at it than what he is, but there's a
00:32:23.049 --> 00:32:24.970
little bit of, let's put some time in and let's
00:32:24.970 --> 00:32:27.289
consider what you want to take as your next steps.
00:32:27.970 --> 00:32:30.589
But let's live in the moment for now. And my
00:32:30.589 --> 00:32:35.210
daughter is starting her fourth year in nursing
00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:40.210
at another fine institution. And they didn't
00:32:40.210 --> 00:32:44.369
have to take the ACT. And now I'm hearing more
00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:48.579
and more colleges are reverting back. to the
00:32:48.579 --> 00:32:52.140
way that it was before COVID. And what is it
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:56.319
about this college admissions process that has
00:32:56.319 --> 00:33:00.299
such a stranglehold on the high school curricula
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:03.640
and in trying to make that correlation between
00:33:03.640 --> 00:33:07.319
the score you get on the test is going to, you
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:11.559
know, be the cause of your future success? Yeah,
00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:15.000
let me start with an anecdote that I think tells
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.789
the story. So, You know, I was talking to one
00:33:17.789 --> 00:33:19.849
person about my book about math, and they said,
00:33:19.849 --> 00:33:21.890
oh, you ought to talk to this other person. She's
00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:25.009
one of the top math education policy experts
00:33:25.009 --> 00:33:27.650
in the country. So I say, great. So could you
00:33:27.650 --> 00:33:30.210
introduce us? They do. So I get on a Zoom call
00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:33.329
with her. And I make my introductory comments,
00:33:33.390 --> 00:33:35.849
which is kids spend several thousand hours in
00:33:35.849 --> 00:33:38.269
high school on math that they will never use
00:33:38.269 --> 00:33:41.509
as an adult, that their smartphone does perfectly,
00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:44.650
that's a holdover from the time period before
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:48.549
we had computers. And along the way, despite
00:33:48.549 --> 00:33:51.529
those thousands of hours, they're not understanding
00:33:51.529 --> 00:33:53.849
the important math ideas that can make or break
00:33:53.849 --> 00:33:57.190
their lives. She says, well, let me just stop
00:33:57.190 --> 00:33:59.890
you there. And it was sort of this condescending,
00:34:00.109 --> 00:34:02.430
let me just stop you there. She said, you know,
00:34:02.450 --> 00:34:06.109
Ted, there's a reason why the Ivy League stopped
00:34:06.109 --> 00:34:08.610
using test scores during COVID, but they're all
00:34:08.610 --> 00:34:11.590
coming back to using them. Because Ted, you know,
00:34:11.690 --> 00:34:14.860
pat on the head, It turns out that SAT scores
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:17.880
are a really important predictor of success later
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.750
in life. I said, well, that's very interesting.
00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:24.030
So because I write about that in my book, do
00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:26.550
you mind if I ask you a few questions about that?
00:34:26.710 --> 00:34:29.809
She says, sure. I say, have you read the study?
00:34:30.349 --> 00:34:33.929
No. Do you know who did the study? No. Do you
00:34:33.929 --> 00:34:36.170
know it was the college board that has a cash
00:34:36.170 --> 00:34:40.349
balance of $1 .75 billion on the backs of those
00:34:40.349 --> 00:34:44.139
tests? I didn't know that. Since you didn't read
00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:46.699
the study, I assume you don't know what the study
00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:49.639
math was that supports their assertion. No, I
00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:53.280
don't. Do you know what a correlation is? I don't
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:56.059
think I do. I said, well, if you go to their
00:34:56.059 --> 00:34:58.860
study, the correlation between SAT scores and
00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:03.010
success later in life is 0 .31. First of all,
00:35:03.010 --> 00:35:04.849
do you know how they define success later in
00:35:04.849 --> 00:35:08.570
life? No, I don't. Well, that's based on your
00:35:08.570 --> 00:35:10.469
first year of college GPA, which doesn't seem
00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:15.559
like a whole I have to watch my language. Doesn't
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:17.719
seem like a particularly great measure of success
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:19.860
later in life, does it? And do you know what
00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:22.679
0 .31 correlation means? Well, you have to square
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.820
it. Do you know what an R squared is? No, I don't.
00:35:24.980 --> 00:35:26.800
You square the correlation to get R squared.
00:35:27.059 --> 00:35:31.000
That's 10%. So the very study, the analytics,
00:35:31.219 --> 00:35:34.960
the math that the college board offers to make
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:37.679
their assertion actually disproves their assertion.
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.639
And then I said, here's the problem. And this
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.239
wins me a lot of brownie points. I'm not going
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.679
to be on this person's holiday card list. I said,
00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:47.599
you're the problem, right? You throw out these
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:52.099
assertions without any understanding, and people
00:35:52.099 --> 00:35:54.820
pay attention to you. And so when we have math
00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:57.880
-illiterate policymakers reciting the problem,
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.739
this is actually a really important predictor
00:35:59.739 --> 00:36:02.460
later in life, you get what we've got, which
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:05.940
is this continued insistence on doing things
00:36:05.940 --> 00:36:09.789
that don't proved to be of any use to adults,
00:36:10.570 --> 00:36:13.369
then in the unlikely event you did need it, you
00:36:13.369 --> 00:36:15.750
could just turn to your phone to get it. And
00:36:15.750 --> 00:36:18.929
then hollows out any sense of purpose from the
00:36:18.929 --> 00:36:21.650
school process for kids and makes most kids feel
00:36:21.650 --> 00:36:26.909
darn stupid. And like, how does this stand, right?
00:36:27.510 --> 00:36:30.329
And in my book, I'll shift gears, and the beauty
00:36:30.329 --> 00:36:32.650
of being in my situation, I don't require funding
00:36:32.650 --> 00:36:34.570
from anybody, so I can just be bombs away and
00:36:34.570 --> 00:36:37.960
say things. I talk about the fact that the head
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.800
of the Gates Foundation at the time, Education
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.880
Foundation, is putting a billion dollars up to
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:48.519
improve high school algebra scores. Again, because
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:51.239
high school algebra scores are correlated to
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:54.059
success later in life. But again, that narrow
00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:57.699
definition of first year college GPA. And my
00:36:57.699 --> 00:37:00.760
point there is that he doesn't understand the
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:04.400
difference between correlated and causal data.
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.590
You know, like, yes. better high school algebra
00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:10.289
scores, yes, high school calculus, you know,
00:37:10.489 --> 00:37:13.489
AP scores are going to be correlated with higher
00:37:13.489 --> 00:37:16.750
first year college GPAs because those kids by
00:37:16.750 --> 00:37:20.650
and large are in better funded schools with more
00:37:20.650 --> 00:37:23.630
affluent, more tenacious parents with teachers
00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:26.730
that can somehow make integration by parts seem
00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:30.630
interesting to kids, which is hard. And the kids
00:37:30.630 --> 00:37:32.670
that don't have those circumstances are not gonna
00:37:32.670 --> 00:37:35.469
do as well. So when you've got the people that
00:37:35.469 --> 00:37:38.949
pull the levers of education power, offering
00:37:38.949 --> 00:37:44.769
these evidence -free math assertions that then
00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:49.110
serve kids so poorly, I'm saying like, whoa,
00:37:49.369 --> 00:37:52.670
we have the blind, you know, pulling young kids
00:37:52.670 --> 00:37:55.670
into dead -end alleys, right? And you deserve,
00:37:55.849 --> 00:37:58.019
these kids deserve better, right? I mean, it
00:37:58.019 --> 00:37:59.760
shouldn't be on the backs of a 15 -year -old
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.059
to say, wait, I'm never going to use this. But
00:38:02.059 --> 00:38:05.739
those 15 -year -olds, by the way, they do ask
00:38:05.739 --> 00:38:08.280
math teachers, when am I ever going to use this?
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:10.420
And one of the things I've been gratified with
00:38:10.420 --> 00:38:13.519
the book is the number of math teachers that
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.559
are actually saying to me, thank you. I thought,
00:38:16.820 --> 00:38:20.309
you write a book, and you say at the end, nobody
00:38:20.309 --> 00:38:23.250
uses the bulk of high school math, that somebody
00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:25.250
who's dedicated their life to teaching that might
00:38:25.250 --> 00:38:28.710
really be kind of annoyed with me. And so many
00:38:28.710 --> 00:38:31.130
are saying somebody needed to say this, because
00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:34.389
we would love to teach our kids the powerful,
00:38:34.530 --> 00:38:36.989
interesting ideas that will make or break them
00:38:36.989 --> 00:38:40.050
in the future. Wouldn't that be great if we could
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:44.440
do that? And they could, and they'd love to.
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:46.860
It's just that there's a direct collision between
00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:49.820
those powerful ideas and what can be boiled down
00:38:49.820 --> 00:38:52.539
to an A, B, C, or D question on a multiple choice
00:38:52.539 --> 00:38:55.380
exam. And so the College Board and the Educational
00:38:55.380 --> 00:38:58.670
Testing Service They love things like factor
00:38:58.670 --> 00:39:01.409
x cubed minus three x squared plus two x minus
00:39:01.409 --> 00:39:05.150
five because it's a, b, c, or d, right? And you've
00:39:05.150 --> 00:39:08.230
got 45 seconds more or less to answer those questions.
00:39:08.550 --> 00:39:10.670
And one of them is right and three of them are
00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:12.389
wrong. And let's say bollocks up the test would
00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:15.510
say do from time to time. But I mean, find me
00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:19.219
an adult who is factoring a third order polynomial.
00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:22.360
I mean, there aren't any, right? Right. And it
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:24.800
just blows your mind. And you just say, if the
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:29.380
people making the most important decisions don't
00:39:29.380 --> 00:39:32.900
understand basic statistics concepts that don't
00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:35.719
understand correlated data and what could lead
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:37.840
to those correlations and what even those correlations
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:44.860
mean, somebody needs to speak out. And what a
00:39:44.860 --> 00:39:50.260
way to engage kids into. the math mode of thinking
00:39:50.260 --> 00:39:53.500
is to bring and introduce this idea of correlation.
00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:56.960
And that is something that they can use in so
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:00.380
many different facets of life. And maybe, maybe
00:40:00.380 --> 00:40:03.500
this is a big reach, but maybe helping to understand
00:40:03.500 --> 00:40:05.880
some of the difficulties that people are having
00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.800
with each other and engaging in constructive
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.619
conversations, especially via social media that
00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:13.539
introduces these different algorithms to it.
00:40:13.579 --> 00:40:16.989
I get that too. But, you know, that to me, is
00:40:16.989 --> 00:40:20.449
all really a math form of thinking and using
00:40:20.449 --> 00:40:25.250
math logic in ways that go beyond just factoring,
00:40:25.250 --> 00:40:28.230
you know, third degree polynomials. Yeah. You
00:40:28.230 --> 00:40:30.530
know, in every, I have, I call it eight glorious
00:40:30.530 --> 00:40:32.469
chapters in the book and then went stink bomb.
00:40:32.550 --> 00:40:35.010
So I've got these chapters on estimation and
00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:37.989
prediction and moneyball statistics and probability
00:40:37.989 --> 00:40:41.409
beyond heads and tails and optimization and algorithms
00:40:41.409 --> 00:40:44.130
and decisions and game theory. And then the last
00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:45.849
chapter is, of course, we get to none of that
00:40:45.849 --> 00:40:47.969
in schools because we bury kids in a bunch of
00:40:47.969 --> 00:40:50.130
these low level math mechanics just because it's
00:40:50.130 --> 00:40:52.409
convenient for the testing organizations. But
00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:54.269
every one of those eight chapters starts with
00:40:54.269 --> 00:40:57.590
something I've either done or observed with elementary
00:40:57.590 --> 00:41:00.989
school kids. This isn't graduate school math,
00:41:01.190 --> 00:41:03.469
even though that's where I really got immersed
00:41:03.469 --> 00:41:06.230
in these ideas. This is things that fourth graders,
00:41:06.329 --> 00:41:09.590
fifth graders can do. And a good example is the
00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:13.119
estimation chapter starts with, hey, glass vase,
00:41:13.179 --> 00:41:15.820
a bunch of jelly beans in it, come up with your
00:41:15.820 --> 00:41:17.860
estimate. How many jelly beans are in that glass
00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:21.179
jar? And you see these kids spring to life, and
00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:24.099
you say, we're going to look at what numbers
00:41:24.099 --> 00:41:26.559
you come up with. But we want you to explain
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:29.079
your approach. And when I do this with young
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.300
kids, you find these kids, third, fourth, fifth
00:41:31.300 --> 00:41:34.460
graders, come up with really interesting approaches
00:41:34.460 --> 00:41:37.119
to it. You know, it begs for, that's the thing.
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:40.019
It's like most people think math has no creativity.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.239
There's no room for creativity in math. Creative
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:46.360
math is an oxymoron. Well, the math that matters
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:48.559
to us in life, the math that really does make
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.840
or break us, begs for creativity. It obviously
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.710
is rooted in logic. But if we don't understand
00:41:54.710 --> 00:41:58.510
the ideas, we're not gonna get anywhere. And
00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:01.989
we've submitted a film to a top film festival,
00:42:02.010 --> 00:42:04.650
so we gotta wait and see how that plays out.
00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:06.469
But sometime early next year, we'll have a film
00:42:06.469 --> 00:42:09.090
out about this math teacher in Colorado who goes
00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:12.050
rogue. He said, I'm not teaching kids arch -secants
00:42:12.050 --> 00:42:14.670
and definition of irrational. All this stuff
00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:16.889
I know they're never going to use. So he immerses
00:42:16.889 --> 00:42:20.769
his kids in data analytics tied to actual challenges
00:42:20.769 --> 00:42:23.710
they're going to face in life. So we focus on
00:42:23.710 --> 00:42:27.309
kids understanding the math behind online gambling.
00:42:28.440 --> 00:42:32.039
But it also ties understanding that math to policy.
00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:35.539
And so these kids understand that if you make
00:42:35.539 --> 00:42:37.960
50 bets on FanDuel, the chances you come out
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:42.199
ahead are essentially zero. Yet, get this, 25
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:44.480
% of young adults think online gambling will
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:46.760
be an important driver of their long -term wealth
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.679
appreciation. But these kids then meet with a
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:53.920
state assemblyman in Colorado, and then they
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:57.019
meet with the governor of Colorado to make their
00:42:57.019 --> 00:42:59.719
case for tighter regulation of online gambling,
00:43:00.500 --> 00:43:03.690
particularly for young adults. One of the kids
00:43:03.690 --> 00:43:06.489
is a two -time Colorado basketball player of
00:43:06.489 --> 00:43:09.030
the year now at the Air Force Academy, who sheds
00:43:09.030 --> 00:43:10.869
light on when you're an athlete, you're under,
00:43:11.389 --> 00:43:13.130
you know, people are going to bet if you miss
00:43:13.130 --> 00:43:15.530
four free throws in a row in the second quarter,
00:43:15.969 --> 00:43:19.349
I can make a lot of money. Hey, how about this?
00:43:19.570 --> 00:43:21.849
You know, it's like, you know, and you just realize
00:43:21.849 --> 00:43:26.429
like online gambling can sink kids into debt
00:43:26.429 --> 00:43:28.489
they'll never get out of. Shouldn't we teach
00:43:28.489 --> 00:43:30.369
them the math to deal with that, to understand
00:43:30.369 --> 00:43:33.400
what is trying to lure them in, how they're trying
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:35.820
to lure them in, and what the real odds are that
00:43:35.820 --> 00:43:38.309
it'll come out ahead. And I just sort of like,
00:43:38.409 --> 00:43:40.429
my mind explodes, like why wouldn't we give that
00:43:40.429 --> 00:43:43.849
far more priority than this whole mountain of
00:43:43.849 --> 00:43:49.039
stuff that nobody uses? So Ted, I got one more
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:51.639
question for you here. So what I'm wondering
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.539
is if you were to be in front of, let's say you
00:43:55.539 --> 00:43:58.199
had two minutes in front of a local school board,
00:43:58.940 --> 00:44:02.789
what What single policy or priority would you
00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:05.530
urge them to and you kind of go either or here
00:44:05.530 --> 00:44:08.010
or or take them both on? But what would you urge
00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:10.929
urge them as a policy or priority to eliminate
00:44:10.929 --> 00:44:14.710
and what would you encourage them to? Take on
00:44:14.710 --> 00:44:17.630
the change. Yeah, I would well the take on is
00:44:17.630 --> 00:44:20.030
easy. I'd say watch the film multiple choice
00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:22.489
Understand the power for all kids whether they
00:44:22.489 --> 00:44:25.230
plan to go to college or directly to career of
00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:27.730
being immersed in career based learning You have
00:44:27.730 --> 00:44:30.030
a running start because there's probably a career
00:44:30.030 --> 00:44:32.170
and technical education center that some kids
00:44:32.170 --> 00:44:35.519
in your district or school are using today. Lean
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:39.380
into that. Help all kids explore careers, do
00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:43.039
more internships, be able to enter young adult
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:47.219
life with a running set of hireable skills and
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:48.579
informed sense of what they want to do. That's
00:44:48.579 --> 00:44:51.019
what I do more of. And then I'd say, I will bet
00:44:51.019 --> 00:44:54.909
anything that most of your discussion has been
00:44:54.909 --> 00:44:57.449
about how we can get our reading and math scores
00:44:57.449 --> 00:45:02.530
up. And here's all I ask. Go look at the practice
00:45:02.530 --> 00:45:06.360
questions, okay? Look at the practice questions
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:08.400
for your state exam. Look at the practice school
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:12.619
questions and the SAT and ask yourself, how important
00:45:12.619 --> 00:45:16.489
is this to me as an adult? And I think when you
00:45:16.489 --> 00:45:19.690
look at the practice questions, the whole curtain
00:45:19.690 --> 00:45:23.099
draws back and you say, you see it's not. this
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:25.679
powerful all -important goal that of course we
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.880
should be chasing with everything in our power,
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:31.820
but we're chasing the end of the rainbow that
00:45:31.820 --> 00:45:37.150
doesn't exist. Before we got on together, we
00:45:37.150 --> 00:45:40.750
were chatting and you said, give you enough time
00:45:40.750 --> 00:45:43.750
and enough space and you could go on for an infinite
00:45:43.750 --> 00:45:48.429
amount of time. It's a long time. I think I'd
00:45:48.429 --> 00:45:52.550
run out before infinite, but I can push up against
00:45:52.550 --> 00:45:55.690
that boundary. But it's just been a pleasure
00:45:55.690 --> 00:45:57.269
to be able to listen to you. And I know we could
00:45:57.269 --> 00:46:00.230
go on and touch on several more different topics
00:46:00.230 --> 00:46:02.769
here. And maybe there's a chance for a future
00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:04.789
episode to bring you back on again. Have me back
00:46:04.789 --> 00:46:08.389
on. And we could do that. But we're running short
00:46:08.389 --> 00:46:10.789
on our time here and I want to get us into our
00:46:10.789 --> 00:46:13.110
lightning round that David and I do have the
00:46:13.110 --> 00:46:16.650
program. So, you know, we'll kind of alternate
00:46:16.650 --> 00:46:18.909
between some different questions here. You can,
00:46:19.010 --> 00:46:20.809
for some of these, give a one -word answer. You
00:46:20.809 --> 00:46:24.590
could elaborate to explain your point, but that's
00:46:24.590 --> 00:46:27.130
up to you. So I'm going to kick it off here with
00:46:27.130 --> 00:46:29.989
the first one here. And it's going to deal, some
00:46:29.989 --> 00:46:33.570
of our mix of, you know, education or math or...
00:46:33.619 --> 00:46:36.000
you know, professional related things and some
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.579
are more personal. So this first one here, and
00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:40.059
maybe you were touching on it here, but I'll
00:46:40.059 --> 00:46:41.519
give you a chance if you want to go a different
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:44.380
direction. What's one education myth that you
00:46:44.380 --> 00:46:46.860
could make this if you could you would make disappear
00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:49.599
overnight? Yeah, the test scores tell us a lot
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:54.800
about what kids are learning. Mm hmm. OK, this
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:58.320
one's a personal one. A book, podcast or series
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.619
that you are into right now that's not work related.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:04.579
Yeah, recently finished Jill Lepore's We the
00:47:04.579 --> 00:47:07.980
People. about the history of our U .S. Constitution
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:11.119
and the fact that it was expressly designed and
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:14.079
anticipated to be amended frequently and how
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:18.239
hard it's become to amend it. Yeah, 27 times
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.460
in all of our history and two of them cancel
00:47:21.460 --> 00:47:24.300
each other out and 10 of them all came in at
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:27.500
one time. Clustering around when we're in the
00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:29.460
middle of a right after a war of all things,
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:31.679
it takes a war to get us to rethink the ground
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:36.039
rules. But the Constitution is in my book as
00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:38.900
the ultimate defining algorithm of our nation,
00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:43.539
which is what it is. Yeah. What's one lesson
00:47:43.539 --> 00:47:46.219
from venture capital that applies directly to
00:47:46.219 --> 00:47:49.539
classroom teaching? Yeah, you know, I think the
00:47:49.539 --> 00:47:51.699
reason I'm different from most business people
00:47:51.699 --> 00:47:53.860
get involved, most business people were CEOs
00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:57.179
and CEOs goal role in life is to tell other people
00:47:57.179 --> 00:47:59.679
what they have to do. A venture capitalist says,
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:01.559
what is it you want to do and how can I help
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:06.199
you? I would say help kids understand and articulate
00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:11.210
their dreams and help them pursue it. What is
00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:13.110
something people are usually surprised to learn
00:48:13.110 --> 00:48:17.440
about you? After I gave my high school graduation
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.880
speech, at the end, grandmothers in the second
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:22.099
balcony were booing and went to school the next
00:48:22.099 --> 00:48:24.360
day. They called the police to arrest me for
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:28.800
trespassing. I was any administration's nightmare
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:33.050
graduation speaker. Well, one of the questions
00:48:33.050 --> 00:48:35.989
we ask everyone is, you know, David and I, we're
00:48:35.989 --> 00:48:38.090
going to host a conference tomorrow and you're
00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:41.010
going to be our keynote speaker. And as you're
00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:43.530
walking out onto that stage to meet that group
00:48:43.530 --> 00:48:45.289
full of teachers, that's going to be in your
00:48:45.289 --> 00:48:48.050
audience. What's your keynote walkup song going
00:48:48.050 --> 00:48:57.730
to be? Oh, that's a good question. Maybe the
00:48:57.730 --> 00:49:00.150
Sam Cooke don't know much about history, don't
00:49:00.150 --> 00:49:03.170
know much biology. So we'll go with the Sam Cooke
00:49:03.170 --> 00:49:06.409
song. What a wonderful world, I think. Yeah.
00:49:06.409 --> 00:49:10.309
By the way, David puts together a Spotify playlist
00:49:10.309 --> 00:49:13.210
of all of our guest responses. So that's going
00:49:13.210 --> 00:49:15.469
to get added to it. I think that's the first
00:49:15.469 --> 00:49:17.309
time we've heard that one. Maybe the first Sam
00:49:17.309 --> 00:49:20.329
Cooke. Yeah, that's the first Sam Cooke song.
00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:22.170
But I wish there was more because I like Sam
00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:24.630
Cooke a lot. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah.
00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:28.900
So this is our last section here and it's just
00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:30.780
rapid fire, this or that. You can only choose
00:49:30.780 --> 00:49:34.699
one. So one has to stay, one has to go. Sudoku
00:49:34.699 --> 00:49:38.079
or crossword puzzles? I'm gonna violate your
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:41.840
rules. In my first book, I said if they replaced
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.360
SATs, they'd have just as much predictive value
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:49.400
and it'd be a lot more fun. So both. Okay. Pencil,
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:52.860
paper, notes or a note -taking app? Definitely
00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:57.469
pencil and paper. Okay, slide rule. or graphing
00:49:57.469 --> 00:50:00.090
calculator? I've never had a graphing calculator
00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:03.989
so slide rule we'll stick with that. Okay linear
00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:07.369
growth or exponential growth? I'm into exponential
00:50:07.369 --> 00:50:11.900
growth. Window seat or aisle seat? Oh I have
00:50:11.900 --> 00:50:14.280
to go to the bathroom a lot so aisle seat always.
00:50:16.190 --> 00:50:17.769
Jeremy and I can relate because we both have
00:50:17.769 --> 00:50:19.730
a bum knee so we usually have to take the aisle
00:50:19.730 --> 00:50:23.849
seat too so. First to leave the party or last
00:50:23.849 --> 00:50:27.000
one to be kicked out? Oh, probably first to not
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:29.179
even go to the party. So definitely first to
00:50:29.179 --> 00:50:33.300
leave. I'm very introverted. Ted, this has been
00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:35.460
great having you on. We really appreciate you
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.559
giving some time and sharing your insights with
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.179
the audience. Before we do let you go, we want
00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:43.099
to give you an opportunity to promote anything
00:50:43.099 --> 00:50:44.840
that you have coming up. I know you've mentioned
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.460
a few things here already, but like, you know,
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.019
things that people can watch out for or, you
00:50:50.019 --> 00:50:52.960
know, and or ways to get into contact with you
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:56.320
or if you want to. plug any of the like the upcoming
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.440
PBS, the multiple choice, you know, like, where
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.639
can people find those things? And where can they
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:04.199
get hold of you? Well, you if you go to my website,
00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:07.000
which is easy to find Ted denturesmith .com links
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:08.539
to all these things, I would love for people
00:51:08.539 --> 00:51:10.920
to buy the book aftermath. There's not a day
00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:12.900
that goes by that I don't see something in the
00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:16.219
headlines, where I say it's in the book. And
00:51:16.219 --> 00:51:19.280
the book is the challenge for the book is as
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:21.369
soon as you say a book about math, that you guys
00:51:21.369 --> 00:51:24.730
can relate. Most people say, no, thanks. But
00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:26.849
it's intentionally in the style of Freakonomics.
00:51:27.230 --> 00:51:29.130
And so there are almost no equations. I have
00:51:29.130 --> 00:51:32.489
a great endorsement from Steve Levitt. And it's
00:51:32.489 --> 00:51:35.289
really the ideas that matter with lots of examples
00:51:35.289 --> 00:51:38.789
of how it affects your life. And so I think that
00:51:38.789 --> 00:51:41.630
in five, six hours of reading it, and by the
00:51:41.630 --> 00:51:43.909
way, I'm getting adults telling me I got it,
00:51:43.929 --> 00:51:46.369
but then my 12 -year -old grabbed it. They're
00:51:46.369 --> 00:51:49.260
reading it. Five or six hours of reading it,
00:51:49.300 --> 00:51:51.639
I think you're ahead of anybody who's taken 2
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:54.059
,000 hours of high school math. And then the
00:51:54.059 --> 00:51:56.559
film, Multiple Choice, which is out and it's
00:51:56.559 --> 00:52:00.239
on PBS. We support community screenings with
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:03.420
it. I think it's an eye -opener. And so you can
00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:07.179
either Google multiple choice, the film with
00:52:07.179 --> 00:52:09.280
my name, you'll find the landing page for it.
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:11.260
Or we can put this in your show notes. But those
00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:14.510
are two recent contributions. And then The organization
00:52:14.510 --> 00:52:16.429
I founded, What School Could Be, has a whole
00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:18.809
set of resources, including those for people
00:52:18.809 --> 00:52:21.969
who really care about aligning what we ask kids
00:52:21.969 --> 00:52:23.730
to do in school with what will help them later
00:52:23.730 --> 00:52:27.150
in life. Yeah, and we'll definitely put links
00:52:27.150 --> 00:52:29.090
to those that you mentioned here throughout the
00:52:29.090 --> 00:52:31.690
program into the show notes. So once again, Ted,
00:52:31.710 --> 00:52:34.130
thank you very much. I have to say this is one
00:52:34.130 --> 00:52:39.829
party I do hate to leave. Good response. Excellent.
00:52:40.289 --> 00:52:44.820
Thanks. Thanks for listening to Integrate This.
00:52:45.179 --> 00:52:47.539
Want to take your learning further? Head over
00:52:47.539 --> 00:52:50.280
to our YouTube channel for quick tutorials, deep
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.280
dives, and more edtech tips you can use right
00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:56.760
away. Don't forget to subscribe and catch new
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or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:07.760
time, keep exploring, keep innovating, and keep
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:08.679
integrating this.