Jeremy Alcorn: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Humanizing Mental Health. I'm Jeremy Alcorn.
trent.akers: And I'm Trenton Akers.
Jeremy Alcorn: Today we are jo joined by Joe Dylan. welcome to the show, Joe.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Hey guys, thanks for having me.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah. So ⁓ we wanted to to it you know, tell the audience, really express why it was we wanted you on our show. And ⁓ and so we're gonna show share actually a a portion of the pitch that was was given to us. So ⁓ the the pitch starts I'll be direct, which I love, you know, I like directness. And it's probably gonna be part of your power up method as well. Right? Directness is probably part of it. So I'd love to get Joe Dylan on humanizing mental health.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Damn kids.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Because he can give your listeners something useful, not just something interesting. He's an author and relationship negotiation expert at the power up method, with nearly twenty years mediating more than a thousand couples in high conflict. His work is practical, funny, built to lower distress before people hit a wall. So, right now I understand, of course, that you've built this method, built this method through practice, ⁓ wisdom, and we'll we'll get into that, but that you're also actually in process of creating a book which is to come.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: It is, yeah. And I've learned that writing a book is a lot harder than it looks. I myself am an avid reader, so I'll probably read 50 to 60 books a year easily. And after having tried to write one, there's a certain amount of guilt that I have of how quickly I go through books. ⁓ Because I want to look at each page and savor every word and be like, wow, this person probably spent
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: you know it's like okay, ⁓ to every single author I have ever read, my apologies in advance. So ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like I I'm just imagining it's almost like people who've who always watched movies but they've never actually made one themselves and then you actually really appreciate it. So, ⁓ yeah, yeah. So like I'm curious 'cause a little bit before the show, like we were talking about potential names for the book, and one thing, ⁓ one potential name you'd mentioned was you're doing it wrong, ⁓ I think sometimes like
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's
trent.akers: Yeah, like I'm just imagining i if I'm perusing a bookshelf, like that would just make me go. I because as a as a therapist, I go, Huh, that's not where how I would start things. But if I'm a reader, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, okay, wait, you know, am I doing it wrong? What does doing it wrong mean? Like I think we all know what it can kind of look like, ⁓ tell me a little bit more about what that means to you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: What do we start? Right. I'm a reader. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. So so that's kind of our internal working title. And part of it is, you know, when you think about communication, ⁓ we all have different styles, but in my experience, people tend to fall into, at least in my world, you know, in the divorce space and the marital relationship space, there's there's probably two main ⁓ types that I run across. And one of the things, one of the types is sort of what I'll call the top of mind person. They're the person who's gonna give you the breathless download on every single detail of everything that's app absolutely has happened in their life over the last 15 minutes. And then you've got what I call the deep thinker, who's the person who is like currently ensconced in some article, book, painting, staring off into the distance. And they're just there in their own world. And it's a common Pattern in my work to see those two kinds of people come together. And so communicating when you're in those kinds of patterns is hard because the deep thinker, and I I am by the way, that person in my relationship, where I'll be reading a newspaper, I'll have a cup of coffee, and I'll be looking down at whatever I'm engrossed in. And my wife, who's a top-of-mind person, who will come in and just say, ⁓ my gosh, before I forget to tell you, we have to go to the store on Friday because we need fertilizer for the fruit trees and the irrigation is leaking. And I'm just like, it's 6 30 in the morning, I got my coffee. I'm like, whoa, I'm I'm I'm still on the first sentence of this thing I'm reading, right? And so part of it is recognizing what kind of person you are so that you can approach your spouse at the appropriate time. So that's kind of where the hook of you're doing it wrong came, because it's like, You're doing it right in your world, but according to the other person, this is not how you should approach me.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm-hmm.
trent.akers: So so as I hear that, like to kind of give context just so that maybe if I'm understanding it properly, it almost ⁓ a little bit like love languages in the sense that where it's about you need to almost find that mutual love language or communicate with your spouse in the language that they understand and they can communicate with you. ⁓ Is right?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Actually, it's a lot different than that. With the love languages, that's sort of your acknowledging the other person and trying to speak to them in their language. I'm saying that if you both agree to use a framework, then it doesn't matter your love language or who you are. If you agree that we're gonna follow this power-up methodology that says this is how we're going to conduct our conversations, then we're all at least both we're all speaking the same language, we're all singing from the same songbook. The what I I try to do with the methodology is I try to make it applicable whether you are the person with the request or the person on the receiving end. And so I'm trying to show people because a lot of times, right, as a negotiator, as a professional negotiator, I found myself in situations where I've been very prepared, I've entered the negotiation, I've done all my research, and then there are times where negotiations have been sprung upon me. And it's like, well, okay, I have no contacts for this.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: But now I'm in it, so I need to be able to get through this and come to a result. And that's really where I think a lot of us get caught off guard because in conversations, right? If you think about a couple, you know, in a romantic relationship, the person who initiates the conversation is ready for it. They're the one talking, right? They say, hey, I want to talk to you about our vacation plans. The other person might be like, I didn't even know we were going on vacation. So that's what this also tries to do, is it tries to give people a way to bring the conversation up in a structured way, but also react to it in a structured way, if that makes sense.
trent.akers: Mm, mm hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, yeah. Something that you you said there that really jumped out at me was ⁓ you you you you talked about timing and ⁓ and and that being a really critical part and that my my ears really perked up. ⁓ I'm curious about about that as you talk about timing. Like what what has your experience kind of driven you towards ⁓ understanding about that?
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Certainly, yeah, good question. When, as I just shared, when someone brings something up, they're ready to talk about it now. They've been thinking about it. Most of us, when we have something we want to talk to our significant other about, it's usually not something that just popped up. It's something that we've been, if it's something of consequence, right? If we say we want to renovate the kitchen, we're not just gonna one day wake up and go, you know what, I wanna tear this whole thing apart. They've probably been looking at it for a while and saying, you know, boy, ⁓ boy, this counter is chipped and this is that.
trent.akers: Yeah. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: that and right and so we're ready if we're that person we're ready for the conversation now you're assuming the other person is ready at that point but if for example they're like me a deep thinker there's a lot of information they're gonna need to have in advance in order to have that conversation I use the kitchen example because that is actually an example my wife and I had done is that she's more of a let's get this done ⁓ You X, Y, and Z, and I'm like, well, what are my choices for kitchen cabinets? What colors do the doors come in? Like, you know, I need information before I can even entertain this conversation. So being able to know that conversation type, but also going in, if your spouse in this example might say, Listen, whoa, I'm open to talking about this, but I'm not ready to talk about it now. How does that person, like in this case me, get my spouse To feel heard but not rejected, because now it might become a question of so you don't want to renovate the kitchen? This is why I never talk to you, because you never listen to me, and it's like, whoa, time out. It's it's not that I don't want to listen to you or I don't want to renovate the kitchen. ⁓ just happen to be underneath the sink right now, fixing a leaky pipe, and now might not be the greatest time to talk to me about that. ⁓ that's what I mean about timing. Yeah.
trent.akers: Mm. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm-hmm. Right. So it's not so much that you see somebody and you go, I think that they're ready for me to talk about this. It's a it's it's a deeper process, so which is like I understand who my spouse is. I understand that I'm going to need to bring this up, and then we're gonna need to set an agenda for this to be discussed.
trent.akers: Okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Okay. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, and one of the things that I like to offer is is what I call a gentle redirect. So I'll take my own relationship, for example. You know, my wife Cheryl is very top of mind and she's really good at details. myself happen to be more of like a 50,000 foot big picture kind of guy. So take the kitchen for example. I just want to know that there's going to be a door that I open to get to the pots, right? I don't care what color it is, what kind of knob is on it, right? You know, none of that matters. but it matters to her. So if she wants to share with me all the doorknob styles, there's a part of me that's gonna go, why, why, right? Why do I need to know this? But There's also part of me that knows it's important to her. And so rather than say, I don't care, you pick out the doorknob, which she might take as, well, he doesn't really care about this project. By offering up a gentle redirect, you can put yourself in the position when you're ready. So for example, I might say, Wow, that seems like a lot of choices. And I want to be really ready to hear the choices, and I want to be fresh to look at them with a fresh set of eyes. Do you mind if we grab some time tomorrow morning? You know, because maybe it's seven o'clock at night on a Tuesday. Where you've had your work day, right? Hey, can we grab some time tomorrow? What do you say we grab an hour tomorrow morning around eight and we'll look at the doorknobs together? So you've gotten what you needed by kind of deflecting the conversation, but you've also pulled your spouse in and shared with them that you're interested, you want to hear it, you want to be engaged, but maybe just not right now. ⁓
trent.akers: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, I love that. specifically because if somebody in the relationship is anxious, right, then you're giving them that ability to address that anxiety on either side. Cause I think sometimes that's with a lot of the people that I've worked with, that anxiety can be something that they're like, okay, I either want to deal with it right now or I need to process it. So let's let's set a time for that. Like let's actually schedule it.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Right. Yeah, and in that anxiety also sometimes I experience that there's ⁓ a a fear of the unknown. There's an openness and you know an unknown piece to it. one of the things that I also talk about in this book is it's about not it it sounds a little more, ⁓ know, a little more like ⁓ obnoxious it's meant to come across, but it's like give someone homework, meaning if they if someone comes to you. and they really want to talk about something, sometimes they're verbal processors, right? So they want to keep talking about it out loud, out loud. And I myself, for example, I'm not a verbal processor. I'm more of a give me information, let me go away, think about it, and come back to you. So by saying to the person, for example, who might be coming to you, say, that's great. And again, I'll use the kitchen example because it worked really well with my wife and I, where she's like, Well, what kind of door style do you want? Because we have to let the contractor know they have to order them. It takes six weeks to come in. Like she's on me and I'm going, I don't know what kind of door style I what? So I said to her, I said, listen. I'll tell you what, how about this? Why don't you go gather up the different types of door styles, pick three styles that you like, and I'll pick one from those, right? So she's like, ⁓ okay, right? So she's now got something to do. So she feels like I'm engaged. She feels like she's making progress towards her goal. we're also going to have a a situation where
trent.akers: Explicit.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: We both like the same item, right? We both came to an agreement because she picked three she likes, I pick one of them, then all of a sudden now we've got what we call a win-win, right? And that's that's how by giving that homework, it's not meant to sound like you're no some teacher and you're trying to do some lesson or waste somebody's time. It's like, look, bring me information that I can use to help expedite this decision.
trent.akers: Yeah. And I think that would be good
Jeremy Alcorn: And you find that what happens is conflict is diffused before it ever begins.
trent.akers: That's the happening. That's that easier.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Yeah, because now the other person feels validated, right? We want to be acknowledged and validated. We want to be heard. Like we want this other person to feel like, hey, you know what? You're gonna be eating and cooking in this kitchen too. I want you to be a part of it, even though maybe I don't want to be part of it. ⁓ but I wanna show that I as a good spouse and a good partner I'm involved. And so and that is that's exactly what we did. We she made a little PowerPoint presentation for me with little pictures of the doorstyles and showed me the different colors they come in, and it was It was great. I was like, wow. And I said to her, I like, this is exactly what I needed because we were able to make a decision right then and there. We picked our door, we picked our color, we picked our doorknobs, and then she could now go and go off and order the doors and work with the contractor, and then she'd come back when the next round of decisions needed to be made and we would continue the process that way. So it works really well if as long as you kind of you know you both can integrate with each other in that way as opposed to the other person.
trent.akers: I think that's really ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You know, you have to be willing, right? As as we all know as professionals, when it comes to counseling and when it comes to if you have couples, you need two willing participants, right? You can't have somebody who got dragged there and the other person's like, you know, sitting in the chair like the whole time, right?
Jeremy Alcorn: Totally, yeah, for sure. Like really as you were describing this, I went, was happening ⁓ you, yeah, you're gonna renovate a kitchen. ⁓ you don't wanna demolish your relationship while you renovate a kitchen. ⁓
trent.akers: I see ⁓ you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right, exactly. Cause it happens. We are right, there's always those big projects, you know, people buy houses or renovate houses and boy, you know, the money starts flying out the window and before you know it, you're fighting about who knows what and you're getting on each other. ⁓ you wanted this house. This was your fault, right? It's the blame game as opposed to ⁓ aren't we working together to solve this problem that we have no kitchen in our house and we need one? ⁓ So ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah. Yeah, I and and I really like this too because it gives you a framework which then they can actually do something structural, but then you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe, but then once you have that, then you can start to do like a lot of the more ⁓ processing parts of it that are maybe underlying that ⁓ therapy. But if they do run into an issue, then you can unpack it a lot more easier rather than as a therapist where you're having to do that stabilization. Am I wrong?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You want to get right. You have to get people on a place where they're at least on solid ground, right? You you you can't like there's a saying, I think it it's like I'm paraphrasing, so forgive me if I get it incorrectly. But like when I think about a lifeguard and you've got a person flailing, right? They're more likely to drown the lifeguard because they're, you know, flailing around. So the lifeguard's first job is to throw them the ring and calm them.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right, even though they're wait, you know, wasting air quotes time that this person is struggling, that's the only way the lifeguard's gonna be able to get them to shore is to get them to stop and and pause. And conversations are a lot like that as well, because as we all know from our professions, they can spiral quickly. And we want to get them to a place that are on level ground. And as a negotiator, I'm always looking for the end game, right? I'm always looking for what's the outcome I want to get to.
trent.akers: Yeah. I think that's a good thing. That would be that you're not going to ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: ⁓ What is it that I want out of this? What does this person want out of this? And that leads me to something else that I think is important is that in a negotiation, one of the things that a lot of us do, and and I tease myself a lot about this because I'm an only child, I have no siblings, and I always would say, like, you know, sure, anything is fine as long as I get what I want, I get my way, right? So then when you go into a negotiation,
trent.akers: I think what I think.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: What's happening is you've already got in your head what it is you want. Guess what? News flash: the other person has absolutely no reason to give you what you want, right? Why? Like it's what you want. It's not what they want. It might be, but you don't know that. So, as a professional, as a negotiator, when I go in, I'm also ready and willing and prepared to offer something to the other party. To get what it is I want. So it might be using the kitchen example. I'll tell you what, if we can get the cabinets in white instead of brown or whatever, then you can pick the hinges and the doorknobs, right? So it's a give and a get. And that's using that negotiation philosophy where it's like, okay, that's what I call reward with value in the power-up method, is that if I'm gonna ask you for something, I need to be able to offer you something on plane.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: in return, something of similar or equal value.
trent.akers: Hmm. Interesting. I almost wonder about this, like like one thing that I work with couples with all the time is like ⁓ trying do things where they're building up quality time and spending time together. I'm wondering for that, if that would almost be something that would work there, like where you choose the restaurant, but you know, maybe I let you choose the activity.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Absolutely. That's a in fact that that's one of the examples in my book. Is that you say, Look, I if if we're gonna do this together, then it's gotta be the product of both of us, and it can't be like, and I that's why you I use dinner in a movie as a perfect example. Okay, I'm gonna choose an Italian restaurant, and maybe your spouse is like, ⁓ man, I just had pizza for lunch and I had spaghetti last night, and it's like, but I'm gonna let you choose the movie, and if you choose some Foreign film that's in French and I don't speak French, but you do. Well, I chose the restaurant, so I said you could choose the movie. I can't complain that you chose a movie that you wanted to go to because you're going to a restaurant I want to go to. And that's all part of that process is recognizing that you know you get along to get along. And it does require, and that's I think a great example because two items are on par with each other. I'll give you an example of what I mean. of the opposite. So so let's say this is a good one. This one, this one happens a lot in my practice. Let's say now I come along and I I say to my wife, I want to quit my job and I want to start a business. Now my wife might look at me and say well wait a minute, you know, we're two income household have all these bills, we have this mortgage, we have these car payments. How how are we going to do this? And if I come back with ⁓ don't worry about it, you know, forget it, you know, whatever. They're probably thinking, like, what is he gonna do? Is he gonna sit around all day? Is does he think that like money's gonna appear out of nowhere? So I might have to offer something where I say, Listen, I'm gonna I'd like to quit my job to start a business. I'm gonna give it three months. If I don't turn a profit in three months, I will go back to work. And here's the kicker. And while I am starting my business, I will take care of 100% of the household chores. So you see, so I brought in a different thing to get what I want, even though it wasn't well, you can quit your job too, right? That doesn't really help us. But I'm acknowledging to the other party that says, Well, gee, I realize you're probably gonna have to work harder. You're probably gonna be more under stress at your job because you're the only income earner. So I want to I want to offer you something to alleviate that. And that and my example is. I'll take care of the kids, I'll do the sh the pack the lunches, I'll bring them to the activities, I'll take care of the cleaning and the laundry around the house. So you're trying to offer something that's at or above value of the thing you're asking for. So I hope that makes sense.
trent.akers: ⁓ yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, totally, totally does. Like ⁓ something that jumped out at me as you're describing this is ⁓ something actually I learned very, very early in in in my academic life. ⁓ the rule of reciprocity. That it's like ⁓ what you really want to do in a good way, in a positive way, is like have the idea that it's like, hey, I'm going to put you into my debt. like ⁓ because we're going to have this reciprocity that happens between us, there'll be an expectation that I feel ⁓
trent.akers: Interrupt I can
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right.
trent.akers: It's like I can ⁓ eat it. But I forgot the permission. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: a level of I need to reciprocate and there'll be an expectation from the other side. They feel they need to reciprocate and there becomes this synergistic positive forward movement.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I call that the marriage bank is the kind of the euphemism I use because whether you realize it or not, as a couple, you're either making deposits or you're making withdrawals. And know, the whole idea is as as you're just saying, is to keep adding to that deposit and adding that balance because inevitably there's going to be some hard time, right? Someone's gonna lose a job, a death of a parent, ⁓ an illness, you know, ⁓ a kid gets in trouble at school, and there's gonna be a an event your life that could cause the two of you to you know go at each other, right? To kind of turn at each other. If this balance is high and you're both like, well, you know what, we're on really solid footing. We've got a really high bank balance, air quotes bank balance, then ⁓ can use that to weather the storm. And like a lot of us, right, ⁓ perfect every single day. We all have our moments and there are times where you know your spouse says something to you and it comes across as kind of obnoxious or cross. ⁓ But if you've got a good enough balance in that marriage bank and you're looking at each other, you can say, you know what? I I know they're overall, they're a great person. Something must just be going on for them today, and I'm gonna just cut them some slack. And that actually happened this weekend. And my wife came to me and said, Look, sorry, it's not you. I I just haven't slept in a couple days. We both came back from vacation, we're both sick, coughing our heads off all night, you know. She's like, I haven't slept in three days. She's like, I'm just exhausted. I'm like,
trent.akers: If you have that or should I have to get this I don't think we should have a thing, right? ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: I g I I knew that already. You didn't even have to tell me that. You know, so that's what having this good reciprocity and that good strong balance does for you. It it allows those other items to just kind of fall by the wayside because you realize just how unimportant they are.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm. I'm curious, when with couples, like 'cause we've we've talked about like one or two examples. I'm just wondering, like with a chain where it comes to like some like this like where it's beyond like one or two examples, how far have you seen people go with this method? Like in terms of like giving back and forth as it were?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, so I mean I practice it all the time. what's really funny is my friends know me, having, you know, been in this game, you know, I call it the negotiation game for the past thirty years, all of them kinda look at me with some sort of like suspicious eye, because they know ⁓ know they're like, All right, I know as soon as I get in a conversation with him, ⁓ gonna wind up exactly where he wanted it. So ⁓ gonna just play. ⁓ gonna play and see what happens, right? So ⁓ even sure
trent.akers: Yeah. Well
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: My wife is always like, all right, what kind of little voodoo hoodoo is he gonna pull pulling on me here right now? So I do find that some people do do parts of it. ⁓ Not perhaps does it start to back, and that's what I want to try to explain to people is that you don't necessarily have to execute all seven steps of the method in order for this to work, but there are ⁓ some
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Parts of that that are more critical than others. And there are some that are game changers for people that even if you only did one or two of them, I promise you it changes your whole way you interact with people. So do people do all these seven steps? Profession if they're professional negotiators, they probably do. If you're like a hostage negotiator or a mediator like me, ⁓ you're you're using this as a playbook, but more often than not.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: the general public isn't and a lot of why I wanted to write this book is I wanted to share in very practical terms, right? The three of us, we're academics by heart, we're we're well studied people. We read research papers for fun. You know, we're like we're an unusual bunch, right? But you know, cool, look, the latest clinical study came out. Yay, let's check this out, right? But most people most people don't want to do that. They just want to know, Joe, it's Tuesday. I gotta figure out how to how I can get
trent.akers: There. Absolutely.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: my wife to say I can go to Vegas with my friends. Right. And that's what this is trying to share with them. It's for the everyday conversations that crop up that trip people up. And that's really what we're trying to to try to help them do.
trent.akers: So I'm curious with these 'cause like one thing that you said right there, the my wife let me go to Vegas. So I'm wondering, is there a point where people could almost use these where you're almost not negotiating in good faith? And what does that do to the system?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Well, you're always in my world negotiating a good faith because the way the methodology works is that part of it is you have to give to get. So if the other if the give isn't as strong as the ask, then it's probably gonna fall down. to your question, one of the things that often happens, and we'll all laugh at this because I ⁓ know right now after I say this, you're all gonna think of a friend or a colleague or a person that does this and we're ready for this. Think about the person in your life where they say, hey, we should get together sometime. Think about that person. I've got them in my head. You're smiling. You've got them in your head too, right? Have you gotten together with that person? No. It's been months since they said we should get together. That's because you kicked the can down the road. Part of this methodology works is because it says, listen, I'll use the Vegas example. I want to go to Vegas, to the sphere, and see this concert.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: With my buddies. I know it's a lot. We have two little kids. I want to leave on Friday and I want to come home on Monday. I understand that's a lot. Here's what I want to offer you in exchange. I know there's the spa you and your girlfriends have been talking about going away to. Let's right now pull out the calendar because I already have the Vegas dates, you know, in my head. I know when the concert is. Let's pull out the calendar right now and book that trip for you. Right now. Let's do that or block that weekend. And then by doing it right at that moment. It reinforces that's how willing I am to give you that. Not, hey, yeah, sure. I'll tell you what, when I get back, we can talk about you maybe going away. What no? You want to say, look, you pick the weekend, you pick the destination, you want to lock it in now, or you want a credit on account, you got it. And it's like again, it's gotta be equal, not like, and I'll bring home a pizza on Friday in exchange for you letting me go to Vegas for four days. It's like No, that's that's not of equal or greater value, right? That's that's something you just do on a Friday, right? So that's the whole idea.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: So, Joe, one of the things that really jumps out at me as you describe this is of course you built this from ⁓ ⁓ of mediation, years of helping people ⁓ negotiate. in my mind, I'm flipping through like the the different therapeutic methodologies that ⁓ that exist out ⁓ there. And this very I think it's important for me to point that out, that there's some some very unique things about this in particular.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
trent.akers: Okay. I feel like that's what I'm gonna do. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, thanks.
Jeremy Alcorn: Because the specific formulation of negotiation as a way to improve your relationship, I don't think that I've I've seen that particular what's the word that platform to ⁓ to to to jump off of.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because before I got down this particular rabbit hole, I did a lot of research and I read a lot of books. And I've and some of them I've already read. So for example, you know, I'm a big fan of Gottman. So, you know, I I I just in my line of work, I read those books just so I can not that by any stretch of the imagination. I always tell people like I am in no way, shape, or form a mental health professional. Let me just be abundantly clear about that. But I wanna at least
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: walk the walk and talk the talk a little bit enough so that if someone is in therapy and comes into mediation and talks that stuff, I can say, yes, I yes, I am familiar with the four horsemen, you know, for example. So that's one of my favorite things. And so I want to be able to talk that enough that I'm educated on it, but not that I'm a professional. And so when I went out and I I I saw that Jeremy, I was like, you know, there is this gap. And one thing I will say, and I'm saying this among you know friendly, friendly company here, is that I, in my experience, have encountered somewhat of a resistance to the word therapy or counseling. I'm a big fan of therapy and counseling. I'm always like, listen, you got some things you gotta work through, man. Like, whether you know it or not, just do yourself a favor and just go. Like, just go try a few sessions, right? Like, just ⁓ like just give it a shot. And then once you get into it, maybe you'd see it, right? But there is sometimes a stigma about that.
trent.akers: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: And so what I'm trying to do is also remove that stigma a little bit and say, look, we're gonna use negotiation techniques to improve your communication, to improve your relationship. And then there are going to be other things that you're gonna need to unpack in therapy that are more in line with those modalities that are not just about having effective conversations. They're about, you know, your childhood, your past, deep-seated hurts, repeating patterns. I can't unpack all of that in a in a seven-step methodology, but what I can do is give people, I've always I liken it to going to the gym, right? A lot of people, when they work out, I like to exercise. And you see all those people, they join the gym in January and they're gone by like February, March, right? Because they're like, well, I worked out once last week and I didn't lose 50 pounds and I don't have rippling muscles. It's like, yeah, you have to work out for like six months, nine months, a year before you start getting any results. And so this is at least one of those ways where I'm like, well, this is something you can apply quick that you can see that yes, you can improve your relationship, you can pull it back from the brink. So this relationship is worth investing in and worth working on. And then we'll use therapy to kind of, you know, do those other things and then really collectively together have a strong foundation. So that's how I look at it. You know, that's really it's important that it's kind of one piece of the puzzle because.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You can't build a house with only a screwdriver, right? You you need a saw and a hammer and a you know, and all the other things that in order to build that strong house. And that's how I view it.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, if I could follow up with a with a a a comment on that as you describe it, ⁓ of the things that is troubling about actual ⁓ couples counseling or couples therapy is ⁓ that people have let those those fester well and and you know the Gottman stuff for like seven years before they've ever gone into address stuff. Actually
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: One of the most likely or probably the most likely outcome for someone coming in for couples counseling or therapy is for the relationship to end. That's actually the the the most likely outcome. And ⁓ and a lot because of what you talked about before about where are people at, ⁓ where's their readiness? Is someone being drugged into this? And ⁓ so as you were describing this, this this to me sounded like very practical ⁓ strategies that you could g begin to apply to your relationship immediately.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: without needing to talk about your childhood trauma. Because maybe when you're in a bad place, you don't trust your partner to tell them about the vulnerable things. And they're not gonna listen to it at the time because they're they got too much caught up in in their own emotional state towards you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Absolutely. One hundred percent.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, and and that's part of when we were thinking about, you know, we were talking about communication and this this is where negotiation therapy blend is that I need to know it's safe to talk to you. I if I'm gonna approach you with something, if you're gonna bite my head off, there's no way I'm coming near you. And by the way, in a negotiation, even if I was negotiating over like property rights, It would be the exact same thing. I'd be I've been in some situations where, you know, prior to me being in the divorce space, but in the corporate negotiation space, where you get on the speaker phone and you've got your team legal team and they've got their legal team, and the first words out of the mouth of the other person is, I just want to let you know that we're not giving you an inch. You're like, ⁓ God, know, what am I doing here? Right? Like, ⁓ know, like this is this person is not even.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: On the planet, you know, not this I'm like, I might as well just hang up. You know, interpersonal relationships are the same. If I walk up to you every single time, and every time I go to hey Jeremy, you you want to go to the movies? He's like, Joe, I don't see movies. You're stupid for even asking me that. I'm not gonna ask Jeremy to hang out anymore. You know, I'm gonna be like, Well, he's kinda mean, you know, like I wanna talk to him. And we want people to have wins. And and I'll tell you this as a quick aside.
trent.akers: Amen.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: One of the things that's somewhat rewarding and sad at the same time, when I'm helping a couple divorce and I'm going through the divorce process with them, I will use these techniques. And then they'll agree on a whole bunch of stuff. And then they'll look at me. And one person will say, Man, I wish you were in our living room. And you're like, Yeah, and they're like, Yeah, if you had been in our house during our marriage, we might not be here right now. And then I say to them, I say, Well, Nothing, the ink is dry here. Like we're not pro-divorce, we're anti-conflict as mediators. Any shot you can save it. And every so often you'll get somebody who does. And I don't hear back from them. So that's good, right? That means they don't need me again. But part of it is teaching them, and I said, even if you decide to go through with the divorce, this will be a way you can communicate moving forward. So when you're co-parenting, or you see each other at family events, you know, or there's alimony being paid. It's not gonna burn you up inside. You can at least have this controlled, structured way to talk to each other. And that's part of what I kind of also thought about developing this methodology because it's the same kind of thing that I help couples. When you think about couples who are divorcing, they're immediately at odds, right? They're they want to end their marriage and they need they want to get as much as they can. You know, as a mediator, I'm fortunate in that I've had basically 98% of my client couples come to agreement.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: And a lot of that has to do with how I get them to talk to each other and talk to me. And I get them to recognize they need to give to get, that they need to be respectful, that they need to do this in a structured way. And when they do, they look back and they're like, Wow, you know, this wasn't as terrible as I thought it would be. And I'm like, That's kind of one of the highest compliments I can get as a divorce mediator, right? This didn't suck as bad as I thought it would. But hey, good job. ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah. And and you know, Joe, I really love that you say that because I've I've done some couples counseling where it ends up being in divorce and where you have to work with a couple now on co parenting. And one of the most vital steps that I find is after you get through like the parenting agreement and all that jazz, it's about how do they get to the point where they're willing to show value and reciprocity and
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right.
trent.akers: want the best for their former spouse, for the life they have afterwards. And if they have that structure and that agreement, that step sounds like that would that's the vital step would be so much easier.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. I I intentionally, when I write my agreements, I intentionally put a hyphen in the word cooperation. I say co-hyphen ⁓ And I emphasize it. I say, you have to co-together operate. ⁓ And they kind of look at you like, you know, okay, this guy's a little, you know. ⁓ it's on purpose to get them to say exactly that. You know, you've got to work together. Your kids, your kids are counting on it.
trent.akers: Mm. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Like there's no question you you brought them into this world, you need to raise them, regardless of your marital status, right?
trent.akers: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, yeah, this is powerful. I got one more like critical question. So the choice of power up. Tell tell us how that that came into being.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Okay, hit me. Yeah, so
trent.akers: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: I tried thinking of the steps that I take people through in conversations. I also, ⁓ a practitioner, you know, I I ⁓ ⁓ is going back almost years at yeah, 30 years at this point. Jeez, wow. so I I ⁓ went to Harvard program on negotiation. ⁓ And I sitting in that classroom at Harvard, and like I'm just like staring at the professor and staring at the ⁓ whiteboard or You know, the projector, whatever, because it's 30 years ago, so it's probably more like slides and stuff with an overhead projector, you know. But I'm just like, what the hell does all this mean? Like he's got all the batna and wattna and graphs and charts and arrows, and you're just like, I can't remember any of this. So now I'm gonna ask a layperson to try to distill 30 years of my experience into like a conversation that's happening on the fly. How can I do this and give them something catchy?
trent.akers: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: that they can remember. And so I wanted to come up with something that was easy to remember, that follows the steps, and and it also kind of is indicative of listen, power up your conversations. You want to bring some energy to it. You want to improve these. You wanna you wanna succeed, right? You wanna you wanna come to some good conclusion? And so that's where I came up with. And if you know, I'll
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: The you know, if you go to the site, ⁓ I have a little website, it's powerupmethod.com, and it outlines the seven steps and what each of them means, like in real brief, and then that's where you can also sign up for our little newsletter. And when you look at it, you'll see each of the seven steps, each of the letters is a is a step in the process. And if you follow them in order.
trent.akers: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You'll get through the end. And like I said, you don't have to execute all of them. In a perfect world, you'll do them all. It's and it's what's nice about it is that it's not I have to do step one, then I wait. Step two, then I wait. A lot of the steps are meant to sort of roll into each other and then be able to give you the outcome. And so that's how I came up with it. I actually the the the really at the end of the day, what it boiled down to was I was actually, I had helped develop a mediation program for high school kids, peer mediation for a school in Princeton, New Jersey. I was thinking about ⁓ we worked together with the kids about how we applied very adult techniques to the way high schoolers talk. And so I said, well. ⁓ I'm gonna just treat adults the same way. Give them something catchy, give them some methodology, something that they can sink their teeth into and remember because it worked with the kids, so why won't it work with adults? And that's where I came up with it. I had to work really hard to get the letters to work, you know. But after I did, I was like, okay, I got it. And you'll see on the website each of the seven steps and what they mean.
Jeremy Alcorn: Hmm. Perfect. That is awesome. So Trent, what are you thinking?
trent.akers: Yeah. Well honestly, like I I love this. I think like I would definitely say that this is a great stabilization technique. You know, I think that if more couples came with these skills already before they got into couples counseling, you'd be able to hit the ground running. ⁓ as a therapist, I think that this is something I'd love every couple to have before they come in and see me.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, thank you for saying that. Appreciate it.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I I'll be super frank that ⁓ so I I don't work with couples at this point in time. ⁓ that's not I don't do couples therapy. ⁓ the only the only couples work I would do is when people are deploying and I'm screening them, I need to see the family, but which is is is ⁓ is not not the same. But I have lots of military members that struggle relationally and ⁓ and I'll be honest, I always have in the back of my head
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Sure. Right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: the most likely outcome is for the relationship to end. That's always in the back of my head as a possible risk. So just being able to say, ⁓ you're having conflict, go do couples counseling is actually something that isn't the first thing I say to people. You know, I I try to work with them from from their side and in understanding. But but I would be more than ⁓ than happy to say, hey, there's a skill set that would probably be very helpful for you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: And to be able to say, I want you to go to this website. I want you to check out the power up method. ⁓ see if you can start to use these things, and and and honestly see how that begins to change the dance in your relationship as you start to use these things. Maybe you can even integrate your your partner over time to say, Hey, I've been trying this new skill set. ⁓ and ⁓ and it's I think it's it's really helpful.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, wow, that's that's very kind. I really appreciate that because you know I I came at it so just so you guys know, a lot of the pattern I see, a lot of the clients I see in my work where we have a high-level executive. It's usually the gentleman, it's not always. We have some high-level women as well, but typically it's the man. ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Who is the high-level executive, and then the wife is either working inside the home or has, you know, a retail job or works in the school or something like that. so ⁓ gentleman is trying to apply his CFO level analytical skills to what's going on in their relationship. And, you like, I mean, ⁓ could work sort of right ⁓ so this this framework is kind of in a way calling that person out and saying look you can be your analytical self at But you can also add some other softer touches to get a more favorable response from your spouse, right? So that's part of it too. And what you just shared, Jeremy, about the military guys, I would think military folk are very analytical, very process-oriented, very regimented. So it would think, and I really appreciate you saying this, it would seem to me that they would really respond well to something structured like this that would get results that give them a direction and have an outcome, a positive outcome, right? That leads, that's what the
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: goal is to lead to a positive outcome.
Jeremy Alcorn: They are definitely regimented, given that they they're in a regiment.
trent.akers: ⁓ Yeah. know, and I I know that you're just coming out with your book, but as I think about this too, I almost think about like family therapy, working with kids, 'cause I'm seeing that this can almost be great application for teenagers and parents ⁓ to learn these skills early on.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Like learn these skills early on. ⁓ man, ⁓ my God, I can't believe Trent you said that. Because when I first sat with it's a friend ⁓ who was helping me as a ⁓ a consultant, a a book consultant, and I sat with him and I had all these ideas and I was just like, name is David, and I'm like, David, I got this, da-da-da-da-da. And and one of them was exactly that, because it would be funny to pitch this to kids and say ⁓ How many times do you ask your parents for something and they say no? Well, what if I could teach you a way for them to say yes, right? The kids would be like, Well, I'm listening, right? You know, like all of us did. Like, how can I get my mom to let me stay out late, right? So, and he said, I think it's a great idea. He's like, but you're a divorce mediator first. And I think your first book in the series is that it's focusing on married couples. Then that's your next book, is for kids. And it's so funny, you brother, power up for teens, because look, we all see conflict in our world, right? We all see what's going on. And I think all three of us would agree that if people just knew how to communicate with each other, we would not be in the mess we are in. Like, it's not that hard.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: people you know be nice be polite be respectful to the other side right you know it's like all this stuff you this basic stuff but if it's not natural to people okay all right fine no problem let's see if we can give you some structure to at least in your own world make that bubble safe and so Wha that'll be the sequel book, so I'll come back on the show when I've got the next book aimed at teens and I'll I'll put you guys in the forward, okay? So I will give you credit for that, I promise.
trent.akers: Awesome. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: ⁓ man.
Jeremy Alcorn: That's ⁓ that's amazing. I s you're using your stuff on us right now. That was a that was a big give. We we got we gotta lean back into giving back, man. We gotta lean back in.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: There you go. Little Jet little Jedi Mind Trick. Yeah, see that that's it, man. That's how I pull the Jedi Mind tricks, you know. I kinda just kinda lure you in, right? You know You're not sure what's hap hey, wait a minute. Why are we eating the restaurant and seeing the movie he wants? How did this happen? You know You'll have a fun time.
trent.akers: Yeah. So Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: So so there is there is one thing, can I as we as we begin to to wrap things up, there's there's one thing that really does jump out of me. and that that has to do with kind of what you bring as a as a person. ⁓ this this is always interesting. See, I got to see Dr. David Burns present on ⁓ on cognitive therapy, and ⁓ and as he presented stuff, it was amazing, except he missed one variable, and that that variable was himself.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Okay.
Jeremy Alcorn: Right. Like ⁓ like something worked out so well. And but part of that was the internal self that that he's bringing bringing in into it. And ⁓ and so what stands out to me and that I really want to represent is that it has to be authentic. I'm sure that you talk about that in in in your process, but that that that it has to come from a a place of benevolence, that always come from a bel benevolent position as you're negotiating with your partner.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.
Jeremy Alcorn: that it's always about coming from a positive space. ⁓ because you can't shift it somehow and manipulate people. That that's just will never work. They'll see right through it.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's where the reward with value comes in because that's what I was saying before. When you say to the other person, ⁓ you're basically by offering them something, you're saying, Look, I get it. I'll just use the Vegas example. I get it. It's a real big ask that I'm asking you. a a w a full-time working mother, mother of a five-year-old and a three-year-old, to stay at home for four days by yourself with these two kids while I go see my favorite band, go to nightclubs, you know, go out on the town with my buddies. I I want you to know that it's not just me saying, hey, I want to go to Vegas. You never let me go anywhere. And I want to be able to reward you with something so big at or above that I'm showing you that I'm not just like trying to pull a fast one over on you and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do something, you know? And so by doing that, and it's so funny when when you do that, the other person often I and my my reaction often is they're suspicious because now they're looking at you like, You know, I've been talking about going to Wispa for a long time and we we never really had this conversation and now suddenly you're offering it to me. Why? Right? And that's where, as you just said, Jeremy, you have to kind of say, because I realize just how big an ask this is. I get it. And that's one of the things where when you say there's a step, the W in the power-up method is called weigh their perspective. And this, I'll I'll share this with you guys. You can the if you forget everything we talked about today, this is the number one move. Okay, so remember this one. This is the separates the amateurs from the pros. When you go into a conversation and you come in, the first thing you do is make the other person's argument for them. It seems so counterintuitive. If I come in and I go, Jeremy, I know you hate Thai food and I know you hate the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but hear me out. I really want to check out this new place that opened downtown and there's a seven o'clock show. And if you agree to go with me, I'll pick up dinner in the movie and then next week we can go, you know, bowling and live animal juggling, because I know you've been wanting to do that for the past three months, right? And so I love live animal juggling. Who doesn't, right? Exactly. But you see what you did is like you were ready.
Jeremy Alcorn: How did you know I love live animal juggling?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Now Jeremy's got nowhere to go. He goes, Well he knows I don't want to go for Ty and he knows I don't want to see that Marvel movie. Man, I got I got no argument left. What did he just do? He took it, he took the steam out of this conversation and he offered me something. He's gonna pay for it and I'm gonna get something else. That's where benevolence comes in, right? Because that can kind of come across as manipulative. Like, okay, what what is he really? Are we really gonna go to the movie or is he really gonna go juggling with me? Like, you know, like you start doubting, and then it's following through on it. Then when we're out there and we've got the squirrels and we're going crazy and you know doing whatever we're doing. You're like, wow, Joe's a guy of his word. And that builds up over time. And we all know this from our professions is that you've got to be a person of your word and you have to be a person of your word all the time. Because again, right, it builds over you go, it's this a safe person. This is a person I know that if I talk to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get an honest answer. They're gonna follow through. They're gonna do what they said. That's the person I want to be in a relationship with. That's the friend I want. Because we all also have the other friend who says, Yeah, I know it's ⁓ it's 6:30 and I know I'm supposed to be at the restaurant now, but yeah, I just didn't feel like it. And you're sitting there going, Now I'm at this table by myself, right? Looking like a fool, and this person doesn't follow through. So I'm not gonna make plans with this person anymore. So That's the one. Remember that one. Weigh their perspective. When you say and you gotta think about it. You gotta think about what I use a simple example, but what really is going to be the objection that this person is gonna come back with me? I really might have to dig in and think about what it is and posit it to them. And then when they hear that, it's kind of like, well, wait a minute, person's making my case for me. What are they doing? And that's where the conversation starts. So so that's your that's your nugget of the day right there. So use that little trick on your friends and Family and see report back to me on how it goes.
Jeremy Alcorn: Sweet. So ⁓ so Trent, I kinda gave my two bits ⁓ as we wrap things up. What are you thinking?
trent.akers: Well, o honestly like it's really hard to choose just one thing here, Joe. But ⁓ like the one thing that I really want to take away from this is that like you've walked us through all of these examples and I think the one thing I wanna slam home to the to our listeners or our watchers if you're watching this on video is that this is definitely something where the rubber hits the road and like where it's about how like the given the get. I think that that is something so key for people to negotiate in good faith. And I think that's something that's missing. So that's really my big takeaway from this and I will definitely be recommending this to my clients.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, thanks guys. I appreciate that. And I appreciate your real time feedback because, you know, you sit here in your little bubble and you're writing your book and you think it's the greatest thing that you've come up with in the world, right? And and you know, I hope maybe, you know, one day, you know, we'll we'll be in a New York Times bestseller list or you'll see me on the Today show and yeah, I remember that guy. You know, and and it's but it's just again, it's like you you're saying, I think Jeremy, I think it was you who said this, is that You know, we all just want to put stuff out in the world. Like I think all three of us are in helping professions and we're all helpers by nature. And we know that we can't solve the world's ills, but if we can make things better, I'm not a particularly religious guy, but I kind of very much follow that whole Buddhist philosophy of you know, you throw a stone into the pond and it makes a hundred ripples, and if I can be the stone and those ripples can go out and touch people and and and so on and so forth. You know, that's not a bad way to go. You know, it's not a bad legacy to have. So that's that's really all I'm trying to do is just I've seen the patterns, I want to help people improve their lives. Cause I I've been married twenty one years and and it hasn't been easy, but it's been very rewarding. And you know, Cheryl and I, we, you know, fight like elegant diplomats, right? We use these techniques with each other and you know the conversations meander along, but they always get to somewhere positive, and that's what I hope other other folks can achieve.
Jeremy Alcorn: Amazing.
trent.akers: Awesome. Yeah. that note, I'm Dred Nakers.
Jeremy Alcorn: I'm Jeremy Alcorn.
trent.akers: See you next time.
trent.akers: And I'm Trenton Akers.
Jeremy Alcorn: Today we are jo joined by Joe Dylan. welcome to the show, Joe.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Hey guys, thanks for having me.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah. So ⁓ we wanted to to it you know, tell the audience, really express why it was we wanted you on our show. And ⁓ and so we're gonna show share actually a a portion of the pitch that was was given to us. So ⁓ the the pitch starts I'll be direct, which I love, you know, I like directness. And it's probably gonna be part of your power up method as well. Right? Directness is probably part of it. So I'd love to get Joe Dylan on humanizing mental health.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Damn kids.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Because he can give your listeners something useful, not just something interesting. He's an author and relationship negotiation expert at the power up method, with nearly twenty years mediating more than a thousand couples in high conflict. His work is practical, funny, built to lower distress before people hit a wall. So, right now I understand, of course, that you've built this method, built this method through practice, ⁓ wisdom, and we'll we'll get into that, but that you're also actually in process of creating a book which is to come.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: It is, yeah. And I've learned that writing a book is a lot harder than it looks. I myself am an avid reader, so I'll probably read 50 to 60 books a year easily. And after having tried to write one, there's a certain amount of guilt that I have of how quickly I go through books. ⁓ Because I want to look at each page and savor every word and be like, wow, this person probably spent
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: you know it's like okay, ⁓ to every single author I have ever read, my apologies in advance. So ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like I I'm just imagining it's almost like people who've who always watched movies but they've never actually made one themselves and then you actually really appreciate it. So, ⁓ yeah, yeah. So like I'm curious 'cause a little bit before the show, like we were talking about potential names for the book, and one thing, ⁓ one potential name you'd mentioned was you're doing it wrong, ⁓ I think sometimes like
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's
trent.akers: Yeah, like I'm just imagining i if I'm perusing a bookshelf, like that would just make me go. I because as a as a therapist, I go, Huh, that's not where how I would start things. But if I'm a reader, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, okay, wait, you know, am I doing it wrong? What does doing it wrong mean? Like I think we all know what it can kind of look like, ⁓ tell me a little bit more about what that means to you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: What do we start? Right. I'm a reader. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. So so that's kind of our internal working title. And part of it is, you know, when you think about communication, ⁓ we all have different styles, but in my experience, people tend to fall into, at least in my world, you know, in the divorce space and the marital relationship space, there's there's probably two main ⁓ types that I run across. And one of the things, one of the types is sort of what I'll call the top of mind person. They're the person who's gonna give you the breathless download on every single detail of everything that's app absolutely has happened in their life over the last 15 minutes. And then you've got what I call the deep thinker, who's the person who is like currently ensconced in some article, book, painting, staring off into the distance. And they're just there in their own world. And it's a common Pattern in my work to see those two kinds of people come together. And so communicating when you're in those kinds of patterns is hard because the deep thinker, and I I am by the way, that person in my relationship, where I'll be reading a newspaper, I'll have a cup of coffee, and I'll be looking down at whatever I'm engrossed in. And my wife, who's a top-of-mind person, who will come in and just say, ⁓ my gosh, before I forget to tell you, we have to go to the store on Friday because we need fertilizer for the fruit trees and the irrigation is leaking. And I'm just like, it's 6 30 in the morning, I got my coffee. I'm like, whoa, I'm I'm I'm still on the first sentence of this thing I'm reading, right? And so part of it is recognizing what kind of person you are so that you can approach your spouse at the appropriate time. So that's kind of where the hook of you're doing it wrong came, because it's like, You're doing it right in your world, but according to the other person, this is not how you should approach me.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm-hmm.
trent.akers: So so as I hear that, like to kind of give context just so that maybe if I'm understanding it properly, it almost ⁓ a little bit like love languages in the sense that where it's about you need to almost find that mutual love language or communicate with your spouse in the language that they understand and they can communicate with you. ⁓ Is right?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Actually, it's a lot different than that. With the love languages, that's sort of your acknowledging the other person and trying to speak to them in their language. I'm saying that if you both agree to use a framework, then it doesn't matter your love language or who you are. If you agree that we're gonna follow this power-up methodology that says this is how we're going to conduct our conversations, then we're all at least both we're all speaking the same language, we're all singing from the same songbook. The what I I try to do with the methodology is I try to make it applicable whether you are the person with the request or the person on the receiving end. And so I'm trying to show people because a lot of times, right, as a negotiator, as a professional negotiator, I found myself in situations where I've been very prepared, I've entered the negotiation, I've done all my research, and then there are times where negotiations have been sprung upon me. And it's like, well, okay, I have no contacts for this.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: But now I'm in it, so I need to be able to get through this and come to a result. And that's really where I think a lot of us get caught off guard because in conversations, right? If you think about a couple, you know, in a romantic relationship, the person who initiates the conversation is ready for it. They're the one talking, right? They say, hey, I want to talk to you about our vacation plans. The other person might be like, I didn't even know we were going on vacation. So that's what this also tries to do, is it tries to give people a way to bring the conversation up in a structured way, but also react to it in a structured way, if that makes sense.
trent.akers: Mm, mm hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, yeah. Something that you you said there that really jumped out at me was ⁓ you you you you talked about timing and ⁓ and and that being a really critical part and that my my ears really perked up. ⁓ I'm curious about about that as you talk about timing. Like what what has your experience kind of driven you towards ⁓ understanding about that?
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Certainly, yeah, good question. When, as I just shared, when someone brings something up, they're ready to talk about it now. They've been thinking about it. Most of us, when we have something we want to talk to our significant other about, it's usually not something that just popped up. It's something that we've been, if it's something of consequence, right? If we say we want to renovate the kitchen, we're not just gonna one day wake up and go, you know what, I wanna tear this whole thing apart. They've probably been looking at it for a while and saying, you know, boy, ⁓ boy, this counter is chipped and this is that.
trent.akers: Yeah. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: that and right and so we're ready if we're that person we're ready for the conversation now you're assuming the other person is ready at that point but if for example they're like me a deep thinker there's a lot of information they're gonna need to have in advance in order to have that conversation I use the kitchen example because that is actually an example my wife and I had done is that she's more of a let's get this done ⁓ You X, Y, and Z, and I'm like, well, what are my choices for kitchen cabinets? What colors do the doors come in? Like, you know, I need information before I can even entertain this conversation. So being able to know that conversation type, but also going in, if your spouse in this example might say, Listen, whoa, I'm open to talking about this, but I'm not ready to talk about it now. How does that person, like in this case me, get my spouse To feel heard but not rejected, because now it might become a question of so you don't want to renovate the kitchen? This is why I never talk to you, because you never listen to me, and it's like, whoa, time out. It's it's not that I don't want to listen to you or I don't want to renovate the kitchen. ⁓ just happen to be underneath the sink right now, fixing a leaky pipe, and now might not be the greatest time to talk to me about that. ⁓ that's what I mean about timing. Yeah.
trent.akers: Mm. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm-hmm. Right. So it's not so much that you see somebody and you go, I think that they're ready for me to talk about this. It's a it's it's a deeper process, so which is like I understand who my spouse is. I understand that I'm going to need to bring this up, and then we're gonna need to set an agenda for this to be discussed.
trent.akers: Okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Okay. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, and one of the things that I like to offer is is what I call a gentle redirect. So I'll take my own relationship, for example. You know, my wife Cheryl is very top of mind and she's really good at details. myself happen to be more of like a 50,000 foot big picture kind of guy. So take the kitchen for example. I just want to know that there's going to be a door that I open to get to the pots, right? I don't care what color it is, what kind of knob is on it, right? You know, none of that matters. but it matters to her. So if she wants to share with me all the doorknob styles, there's a part of me that's gonna go, why, why, right? Why do I need to know this? But There's also part of me that knows it's important to her. And so rather than say, I don't care, you pick out the doorknob, which she might take as, well, he doesn't really care about this project. By offering up a gentle redirect, you can put yourself in the position when you're ready. So for example, I might say, Wow, that seems like a lot of choices. And I want to be really ready to hear the choices, and I want to be fresh to look at them with a fresh set of eyes. Do you mind if we grab some time tomorrow morning? You know, because maybe it's seven o'clock at night on a Tuesday. Where you've had your work day, right? Hey, can we grab some time tomorrow? What do you say we grab an hour tomorrow morning around eight and we'll look at the doorknobs together? So you've gotten what you needed by kind of deflecting the conversation, but you've also pulled your spouse in and shared with them that you're interested, you want to hear it, you want to be engaged, but maybe just not right now. ⁓
trent.akers: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, I love that. specifically because if somebody in the relationship is anxious, right, then you're giving them that ability to address that anxiety on either side. Cause I think sometimes that's with a lot of the people that I've worked with, that anxiety can be something that they're like, okay, I either want to deal with it right now or I need to process it. So let's let's set a time for that. Like let's actually schedule it.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Right. Yeah, and in that anxiety also sometimes I experience that there's ⁓ a a fear of the unknown. There's an openness and you know an unknown piece to it. one of the things that I also talk about in this book is it's about not it it sounds a little more, ⁓ know, a little more like ⁓ obnoxious it's meant to come across, but it's like give someone homework, meaning if they if someone comes to you. and they really want to talk about something, sometimes they're verbal processors, right? So they want to keep talking about it out loud, out loud. And I myself, for example, I'm not a verbal processor. I'm more of a give me information, let me go away, think about it, and come back to you. So by saying to the person, for example, who might be coming to you, say, that's great. And again, I'll use the kitchen example because it worked really well with my wife and I, where she's like, Well, what kind of door style do you want? Because we have to let the contractor know they have to order them. It takes six weeks to come in. Like she's on me and I'm going, I don't know what kind of door style I what? So I said to her, I said, listen. I'll tell you what, how about this? Why don't you go gather up the different types of door styles, pick three styles that you like, and I'll pick one from those, right? So she's like, ⁓ okay, right? So she's now got something to do. So she feels like I'm engaged. She feels like she's making progress towards her goal. we're also going to have a a situation where
trent.akers: Explicit.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: We both like the same item, right? We both came to an agreement because she picked three she likes, I pick one of them, then all of a sudden now we've got what we call a win-win, right? And that's that's how by giving that homework, it's not meant to sound like you're no some teacher and you're trying to do some lesson or waste somebody's time. It's like, look, bring me information that I can use to help expedite this decision.
trent.akers: Yeah. And I think that would be good
Jeremy Alcorn: And you find that what happens is conflict is diffused before it ever begins.
trent.akers: That's the happening. That's that easier.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Yeah, because now the other person feels validated, right? We want to be acknowledged and validated. We want to be heard. Like we want this other person to feel like, hey, you know what? You're gonna be eating and cooking in this kitchen too. I want you to be a part of it, even though maybe I don't want to be part of it. ⁓ but I wanna show that I as a good spouse and a good partner I'm involved. And so and that is that's exactly what we did. We she made a little PowerPoint presentation for me with little pictures of the doorstyles and showed me the different colors they come in, and it was It was great. I was like, wow. And I said to her, I like, this is exactly what I needed because we were able to make a decision right then and there. We picked our door, we picked our color, we picked our doorknobs, and then she could now go and go off and order the doors and work with the contractor, and then she'd come back when the next round of decisions needed to be made and we would continue the process that way. So it works really well if as long as you kind of you know you both can integrate with each other in that way as opposed to the other person.
trent.akers: I think that's really ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You know, you have to be willing, right? As as we all know as professionals, when it comes to counseling and when it comes to if you have couples, you need two willing participants, right? You can't have somebody who got dragged there and the other person's like, you know, sitting in the chair like the whole time, right?
Jeremy Alcorn: Totally, yeah, for sure. Like really as you were describing this, I went, was happening ⁓ you, yeah, you're gonna renovate a kitchen. ⁓ you don't wanna demolish your relationship while you renovate a kitchen. ⁓
trent.akers: I see ⁓ you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right, exactly. Cause it happens. We are right, there's always those big projects, you know, people buy houses or renovate houses and boy, you know, the money starts flying out the window and before you know it, you're fighting about who knows what and you're getting on each other. ⁓ you wanted this house. This was your fault, right? It's the blame game as opposed to ⁓ aren't we working together to solve this problem that we have no kitchen in our house and we need one? ⁓ So ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah. Yeah, I and and I really like this too because it gives you a framework which then they can actually do something structural, but then you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe, but then once you have that, then you can start to do like a lot of the more ⁓ processing parts of it that are maybe underlying that ⁓ therapy. But if they do run into an issue, then you can unpack it a lot more easier rather than as a therapist where you're having to do that stabilization. Am I wrong?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You want to get right. You have to get people on a place where they're at least on solid ground, right? You you you can't like there's a saying, I think it it's like I'm paraphrasing, so forgive me if I get it incorrectly. But like when I think about a lifeguard and you've got a person flailing, right? They're more likely to drown the lifeguard because they're, you know, flailing around. So the lifeguard's first job is to throw them the ring and calm them.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right, even though they're wait, you know, wasting air quotes time that this person is struggling, that's the only way the lifeguard's gonna be able to get them to shore is to get them to stop and and pause. And conversations are a lot like that as well, because as we all know from our professions, they can spiral quickly. And we want to get them to a place that are on level ground. And as a negotiator, I'm always looking for the end game, right? I'm always looking for what's the outcome I want to get to.
trent.akers: Yeah. I think that's a good thing. That would be that you're not going to ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: ⁓ What is it that I want out of this? What does this person want out of this? And that leads me to something else that I think is important is that in a negotiation, one of the things that a lot of us do, and and I tease myself a lot about this because I'm an only child, I have no siblings, and I always would say, like, you know, sure, anything is fine as long as I get what I want, I get my way, right? So then when you go into a negotiation,
trent.akers: I think what I think.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: What's happening is you've already got in your head what it is you want. Guess what? News flash: the other person has absolutely no reason to give you what you want, right? Why? Like it's what you want. It's not what they want. It might be, but you don't know that. So, as a professional, as a negotiator, when I go in, I'm also ready and willing and prepared to offer something to the other party. To get what it is I want. So it might be using the kitchen example. I'll tell you what, if we can get the cabinets in white instead of brown or whatever, then you can pick the hinges and the doorknobs, right? So it's a give and a get. And that's using that negotiation philosophy where it's like, okay, that's what I call reward with value in the power-up method, is that if I'm gonna ask you for something, I need to be able to offer you something on plane.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: in return, something of similar or equal value.
trent.akers: Hmm. Interesting. I almost wonder about this, like like one thing that I work with couples with all the time is like ⁓ trying do things where they're building up quality time and spending time together. I'm wondering for that, if that would almost be something that would work there, like where you choose the restaurant, but you know, maybe I let you choose the activity.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Absolutely. That's a in fact that that's one of the examples in my book. Is that you say, Look, I if if we're gonna do this together, then it's gotta be the product of both of us, and it can't be like, and I that's why you I use dinner in a movie as a perfect example. Okay, I'm gonna choose an Italian restaurant, and maybe your spouse is like, ⁓ man, I just had pizza for lunch and I had spaghetti last night, and it's like, but I'm gonna let you choose the movie, and if you choose some Foreign film that's in French and I don't speak French, but you do. Well, I chose the restaurant, so I said you could choose the movie. I can't complain that you chose a movie that you wanted to go to because you're going to a restaurant I want to go to. And that's all part of that process is recognizing that you know you get along to get along. And it does require, and that's I think a great example because two items are on par with each other. I'll give you an example of what I mean. of the opposite. So so let's say this is a good one. This one, this one happens a lot in my practice. Let's say now I come along and I I say to my wife, I want to quit my job and I want to start a business. Now my wife might look at me and say well wait a minute, you know, we're two income household have all these bills, we have this mortgage, we have these car payments. How how are we going to do this? And if I come back with ⁓ don't worry about it, you know, forget it, you know, whatever. They're probably thinking, like, what is he gonna do? Is he gonna sit around all day? Is does he think that like money's gonna appear out of nowhere? So I might have to offer something where I say, Listen, I'm gonna I'd like to quit my job to start a business. I'm gonna give it three months. If I don't turn a profit in three months, I will go back to work. And here's the kicker. And while I am starting my business, I will take care of 100% of the household chores. So you see, so I brought in a different thing to get what I want, even though it wasn't well, you can quit your job too, right? That doesn't really help us. But I'm acknowledging to the other party that says, Well, gee, I realize you're probably gonna have to work harder. You're probably gonna be more under stress at your job because you're the only income earner. So I want to I want to offer you something to alleviate that. And that and my example is. I'll take care of the kids, I'll do the sh the pack the lunches, I'll bring them to the activities, I'll take care of the cleaning and the laundry around the house. So you're trying to offer something that's at or above value of the thing you're asking for. So I hope that makes sense.
trent.akers: ⁓ yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, totally, totally does. Like ⁓ something that jumped out at me as you're describing this is ⁓ something actually I learned very, very early in in in my academic life. ⁓ the rule of reciprocity. That it's like ⁓ what you really want to do in a good way, in a positive way, is like have the idea that it's like, hey, I'm going to put you into my debt. like ⁓ because we're going to have this reciprocity that happens between us, there'll be an expectation that I feel ⁓
trent.akers: Interrupt I can
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right.
trent.akers: It's like I can ⁓ eat it. But I forgot the permission. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: a level of I need to reciprocate and there'll be an expectation from the other side. They feel they need to reciprocate and there becomes this synergistic positive forward movement.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I call that the marriage bank is the kind of the euphemism I use because whether you realize it or not, as a couple, you're either making deposits or you're making withdrawals. And know, the whole idea is as as you're just saying, is to keep adding to that deposit and adding that balance because inevitably there's going to be some hard time, right? Someone's gonna lose a job, a death of a parent, ⁓ an illness, you know, ⁓ a kid gets in trouble at school, and there's gonna be a an event your life that could cause the two of you to you know go at each other, right? To kind of turn at each other. If this balance is high and you're both like, well, you know what, we're on really solid footing. We've got a really high bank balance, air quotes bank balance, then ⁓ can use that to weather the storm. And like a lot of us, right, ⁓ perfect every single day. We all have our moments and there are times where you know your spouse says something to you and it comes across as kind of obnoxious or cross. ⁓ But if you've got a good enough balance in that marriage bank and you're looking at each other, you can say, you know what? I I know they're overall, they're a great person. Something must just be going on for them today, and I'm gonna just cut them some slack. And that actually happened this weekend. And my wife came to me and said, Look, sorry, it's not you. I I just haven't slept in a couple days. We both came back from vacation, we're both sick, coughing our heads off all night, you know. She's like, I haven't slept in three days. She's like, I'm just exhausted. I'm like,
trent.akers: If you have that or should I have to get this I don't think we should have a thing, right? ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: I g I I knew that already. You didn't even have to tell me that. You know, so that's what having this good reciprocity and that good strong balance does for you. It it allows those other items to just kind of fall by the wayside because you realize just how unimportant they are.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm. I'm curious, when with couples, like 'cause we've we've talked about like one or two examples. I'm just wondering, like with a chain where it comes to like some like this like where it's beyond like one or two examples, how far have you seen people go with this method? Like in terms of like giving back and forth as it were?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, so I mean I practice it all the time. what's really funny is my friends know me, having, you know, been in this game, you know, I call it the negotiation game for the past thirty years, all of them kinda look at me with some sort of like suspicious eye, because they know ⁓ know they're like, All right, I know as soon as I get in a conversation with him, ⁓ gonna wind up exactly where he wanted it. So ⁓ gonna just play. ⁓ gonna play and see what happens, right? So ⁓ even sure
trent.akers: Yeah. Well
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: My wife is always like, all right, what kind of little voodoo hoodoo is he gonna pull pulling on me here right now? So I do find that some people do do parts of it. ⁓ Not perhaps does it start to back, and that's what I want to try to explain to people is that you don't necessarily have to execute all seven steps of the method in order for this to work, but there are ⁓ some
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Parts of that that are more critical than others. And there are some that are game changers for people that even if you only did one or two of them, I promise you it changes your whole way you interact with people. So do people do all these seven steps? Profession if they're professional negotiators, they probably do. If you're like a hostage negotiator or a mediator like me, ⁓ you're you're using this as a playbook, but more often than not.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: the general public isn't and a lot of why I wanted to write this book is I wanted to share in very practical terms, right? The three of us, we're academics by heart, we're we're well studied people. We read research papers for fun. You know, we're like we're an unusual bunch, right? But you know, cool, look, the latest clinical study came out. Yay, let's check this out, right? But most people most people don't want to do that. They just want to know, Joe, it's Tuesday. I gotta figure out how to how I can get
trent.akers: There. Absolutely.
Jeremy Alcorn: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: my wife to say I can go to Vegas with my friends. Right. And that's what this is trying to share with them. It's for the everyday conversations that crop up that trip people up. And that's really what we're trying to to try to help them do.
trent.akers: So I'm curious with these 'cause like one thing that you said right there, the my wife let me go to Vegas. So I'm wondering, is there a point where people could almost use these where you're almost not negotiating in good faith? And what does that do to the system?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Well, you're always in my world negotiating a good faith because the way the methodology works is that part of it is you have to give to get. So if the other if the give isn't as strong as the ask, then it's probably gonna fall down. to your question, one of the things that often happens, and we'll all laugh at this because I ⁓ know right now after I say this, you're all gonna think of a friend or a colleague or a person that does this and we're ready for this. Think about the person in your life where they say, hey, we should get together sometime. Think about that person. I've got them in my head. You're smiling. You've got them in your head too, right? Have you gotten together with that person? No. It's been months since they said we should get together. That's because you kicked the can down the road. Part of this methodology works is because it says, listen, I'll use the Vegas example. I want to go to Vegas, to the sphere, and see this concert.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: With my buddies. I know it's a lot. We have two little kids. I want to leave on Friday and I want to come home on Monday. I understand that's a lot. Here's what I want to offer you in exchange. I know there's the spa you and your girlfriends have been talking about going away to. Let's right now pull out the calendar because I already have the Vegas dates, you know, in my head. I know when the concert is. Let's pull out the calendar right now and book that trip for you. Right now. Let's do that or block that weekend. And then by doing it right at that moment. It reinforces that's how willing I am to give you that. Not, hey, yeah, sure. I'll tell you what, when I get back, we can talk about you maybe going away. What no? You want to say, look, you pick the weekend, you pick the destination, you want to lock it in now, or you want a credit on account, you got it. And it's like again, it's gotta be equal, not like, and I'll bring home a pizza on Friday in exchange for you letting me go to Vegas for four days. It's like No, that's that's not of equal or greater value, right? That's that's something you just do on a Friday, right? So that's the whole idea.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: So, Joe, one of the things that really jumps out at me as you describe this is of course you built this from ⁓ ⁓ of mediation, years of helping people ⁓ negotiate. in my mind, I'm flipping through like the the different therapeutic methodologies that ⁓ that exist out ⁓ there. And this very I think it's important for me to point that out, that there's some some very unique things about this in particular.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
trent.akers: Okay. I feel like that's what I'm gonna do. ⁓
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, thanks.
Jeremy Alcorn: Because the specific formulation of negotiation as a way to improve your relationship, I don't think that I've I've seen that particular what's the word that platform to ⁓ to to to jump off of.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that because before I got down this particular rabbit hole, I did a lot of research and I read a lot of books. And I've and some of them I've already read. So for example, you know, I'm a big fan of Gottman. So, you know, I I I just in my line of work, I read those books just so I can not that by any stretch of the imagination. I always tell people like I am in no way, shape, or form a mental health professional. Let me just be abundantly clear about that. But I wanna at least
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: walk the walk and talk the talk a little bit enough so that if someone is in therapy and comes into mediation and talks that stuff, I can say, yes, I yes, I am familiar with the four horsemen, you know, for example. So that's one of my favorite things. And so I want to be able to talk that enough that I'm educated on it, but not that I'm a professional. And so when I went out and I I I saw that Jeremy, I was like, you know, there is this gap. And one thing I will say, and I'm saying this among you know friendly, friendly company here, is that I, in my experience, have encountered somewhat of a resistance to the word therapy or counseling. I'm a big fan of therapy and counseling. I'm always like, listen, you got some things you gotta work through, man. Like, whether you know it or not, just do yourself a favor and just go. Like, just go try a few sessions, right? Like, just ⁓ like just give it a shot. And then once you get into it, maybe you'd see it, right? But there is sometimes a stigma about that.
trent.akers: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: And so what I'm trying to do is also remove that stigma a little bit and say, look, we're gonna use negotiation techniques to improve your communication, to improve your relationship. And then there are going to be other things that you're gonna need to unpack in therapy that are more in line with those modalities that are not just about having effective conversations. They're about, you know, your childhood, your past, deep-seated hurts, repeating patterns. I can't unpack all of that in a in a seven-step methodology, but what I can do is give people, I've always I liken it to going to the gym, right? A lot of people, when they work out, I like to exercise. And you see all those people, they join the gym in January and they're gone by like February, March, right? Because they're like, well, I worked out once last week and I didn't lose 50 pounds and I don't have rippling muscles. It's like, yeah, you have to work out for like six months, nine months, a year before you start getting any results. And so this is at least one of those ways where I'm like, well, this is something you can apply quick that you can see that yes, you can improve your relationship, you can pull it back from the brink. So this relationship is worth investing in and worth working on. And then we'll use therapy to kind of, you know, do those other things and then really collectively together have a strong foundation. So that's how I look at it. You know, that's really it's important that it's kind of one piece of the puzzle because.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You can't build a house with only a screwdriver, right? You you need a saw and a hammer and a you know, and all the other things that in order to build that strong house. And that's how I view it.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, if I could follow up with a with a a a comment on that as you describe it, ⁓ of the things that is troubling about actual ⁓ couples counseling or couples therapy is ⁓ that people have let those those fester well and and you know the Gottman stuff for like seven years before they've ever gone into address stuff. Actually
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: One of the most likely or probably the most likely outcome for someone coming in for couples counseling or therapy is for the relationship to end. That's actually the the the most likely outcome. And ⁓ and a lot because of what you talked about before about where are people at, ⁓ where's their readiness? Is someone being drugged into this? And ⁓ so as you were describing this, this this to me sounded like very practical ⁓ strategies that you could g begin to apply to your relationship immediately.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: without needing to talk about your childhood trauma. Because maybe when you're in a bad place, you don't trust your partner to tell them about the vulnerable things. And they're not gonna listen to it at the time because they're they got too much caught up in in their own emotional state towards you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right. Absolutely. One hundred percent.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, and and that's part of when we were thinking about, you know, we were talking about communication and this this is where negotiation therapy blend is that I need to know it's safe to talk to you. I if I'm gonna approach you with something, if you're gonna bite my head off, there's no way I'm coming near you. And by the way, in a negotiation, even if I was negotiating over like property rights, It would be the exact same thing. I'd be I've been in some situations where, you know, prior to me being in the divorce space, but in the corporate negotiation space, where you get on the speaker phone and you've got your team legal team and they've got their legal team, and the first words out of the mouth of the other person is, I just want to let you know that we're not giving you an inch. You're like, ⁓ God, know, what am I doing here? Right? Like, ⁓ know, like this is this person is not even.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: On the planet, you know, not this I'm like, I might as well just hang up. You know, interpersonal relationships are the same. If I walk up to you every single time, and every time I go to hey Jeremy, you you want to go to the movies? He's like, Joe, I don't see movies. You're stupid for even asking me that. I'm not gonna ask Jeremy to hang out anymore. You know, I'm gonna be like, Well, he's kinda mean, you know, like I wanna talk to him. And we want people to have wins. And and I'll tell you this as a quick aside.
trent.akers: Amen.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: One of the things that's somewhat rewarding and sad at the same time, when I'm helping a couple divorce and I'm going through the divorce process with them, I will use these techniques. And then they'll agree on a whole bunch of stuff. And then they'll look at me. And one person will say, Man, I wish you were in our living room. And you're like, Yeah, and they're like, Yeah, if you had been in our house during our marriage, we might not be here right now. And then I say to them, I say, Well, Nothing, the ink is dry here. Like we're not pro-divorce, we're anti-conflict as mediators. Any shot you can save it. And every so often you'll get somebody who does. And I don't hear back from them. So that's good, right? That means they don't need me again. But part of it is teaching them, and I said, even if you decide to go through with the divorce, this will be a way you can communicate moving forward. So when you're co-parenting, or you see each other at family events, you know, or there's alimony being paid. It's not gonna burn you up inside. You can at least have this controlled, structured way to talk to each other. And that's part of what I kind of also thought about developing this methodology because it's the same kind of thing that I help couples. When you think about couples who are divorcing, they're immediately at odds, right? They're they want to end their marriage and they need they want to get as much as they can. You know, as a mediator, I'm fortunate in that I've had basically 98% of my client couples come to agreement.
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: And a lot of that has to do with how I get them to talk to each other and talk to me. And I get them to recognize they need to give to get, that they need to be respectful, that they need to do this in a structured way. And when they do, they look back and they're like, Wow, you know, this wasn't as terrible as I thought it would be. And I'm like, That's kind of one of the highest compliments I can get as a divorce mediator, right? This didn't suck as bad as I thought it would. But hey, good job. ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah. And and you know, Joe, I really love that you say that because I've I've done some couples counseling where it ends up being in divorce and where you have to work with a couple now on co parenting. And one of the most vital steps that I find is after you get through like the parenting agreement and all that jazz, it's about how do they get to the point where they're willing to show value and reciprocity and
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Right.
trent.akers: want the best for their former spouse, for the life they have afterwards. And if they have that structure and that agreement, that step sounds like that would that's the vital step would be so much easier.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. I I intentionally, when I write my agreements, I intentionally put a hyphen in the word cooperation. I say co-hyphen ⁓ And I emphasize it. I say, you have to co-together operate. ⁓ And they kind of look at you like, you know, okay, this guy's a little, you know. ⁓ it's on purpose to get them to say exactly that. You know, you've got to work together. Your kids, your kids are counting on it.
trent.akers: Mm. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Like there's no question you you brought them into this world, you need to raise them, regardless of your marital status, right?
trent.akers: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, yeah, this is powerful. I got one more like critical question. So the choice of power up. Tell tell us how that that came into being.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Okay, hit me. Yeah, so
trent.akers: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: I tried thinking of the steps that I take people through in conversations. I also, ⁓ a practitioner, you know, I I ⁓ ⁓ is going back almost years at yeah, 30 years at this point. Jeez, wow. so I I ⁓ went to Harvard program on negotiation. ⁓ And I sitting in that classroom at Harvard, and like I'm just like staring at the professor and staring at the ⁓ whiteboard or You know, the projector, whatever, because it's 30 years ago, so it's probably more like slides and stuff with an overhead projector, you know. But I'm just like, what the hell does all this mean? Like he's got all the batna and wattna and graphs and charts and arrows, and you're just like, I can't remember any of this. So now I'm gonna ask a layperson to try to distill 30 years of my experience into like a conversation that's happening on the fly. How can I do this and give them something catchy?
trent.akers: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: that they can remember. And so I wanted to come up with something that was easy to remember, that follows the steps, and and it also kind of is indicative of listen, power up your conversations. You want to bring some energy to it. You want to improve these. You wanna you wanna succeed, right? You wanna you wanna come to some good conclusion? And so that's where I came up with. And if you know, I'll
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: The you know, if you go to the site, ⁓ I have a little website, it's powerupmethod.com, and it outlines the seven steps and what each of them means, like in real brief, and then that's where you can also sign up for our little newsletter. And when you look at it, you'll see each of the seven steps, each of the letters is a is a step in the process. And if you follow them in order.
trent.akers: Mm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: You'll get through the end. And like I said, you don't have to execute all of them. In a perfect world, you'll do them all. It's and it's what's nice about it is that it's not I have to do step one, then I wait. Step two, then I wait. A lot of the steps are meant to sort of roll into each other and then be able to give you the outcome. And so that's how I came up with it. I actually the the the really at the end of the day, what it boiled down to was I was actually, I had helped develop a mediation program for high school kids, peer mediation for a school in Princeton, New Jersey. I was thinking about ⁓ we worked together with the kids about how we applied very adult techniques to the way high schoolers talk. And so I said, well. ⁓ I'm gonna just treat adults the same way. Give them something catchy, give them some methodology, something that they can sink their teeth into and remember because it worked with the kids, so why won't it work with adults? And that's where I came up with it. I had to work really hard to get the letters to work, you know. But after I did, I was like, okay, I got it. And you'll see on the website each of the seven steps and what they mean.
Jeremy Alcorn: Hmm. Perfect. That is awesome. So Trent, what are you thinking?
trent.akers: Yeah. Well honestly, like I I love this. I think like I would definitely say that this is a great stabilization technique. You know, I think that if more couples came with these skills already before they got into couples counseling, you'd be able to hit the ground running. ⁓ as a therapist, I think that this is something I'd love every couple to have before they come in and see me.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah, thank you for saying that. Appreciate it.
Jeremy Alcorn: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I I'll be super frank that ⁓ so I I don't work with couples at this point in time. ⁓ that's not I don't do couples therapy. ⁓ the only the only couples work I would do is when people are deploying and I'm screening them, I need to see the family, but which is is is ⁓ is not not the same. But I have lots of military members that struggle relationally and ⁓ and I'll be honest, I always have in the back of my head
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Sure. Right. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: the most likely outcome is for the relationship to end. That's always in the back of my head as a possible risk. So just being able to say, ⁓ you're having conflict, go do couples counseling is actually something that isn't the first thing I say to people. You know, I I try to work with them from from their side and in understanding. But but I would be more than ⁓ than happy to say, hey, there's a skill set that would probably be very helpful for you.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Alcorn: And to be able to say, I want you to go to this website. I want you to check out the power up method. ⁓ see if you can start to use these things, and and and honestly see how that begins to change the dance in your relationship as you start to use these things. Maybe you can even integrate your your partner over time to say, Hey, I've been trying this new skill set. ⁓ and ⁓ and it's I think it's it's really helpful.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, wow, that's that's very kind. I really appreciate that because you know I I came at it so just so you guys know, a lot of the pattern I see, a lot of the clients I see in my work where we have a high-level executive. It's usually the gentleman, it's not always. We have some high-level women as well, but typically it's the man. ⁓
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Who is the high-level executive, and then the wife is either working inside the home or has, you know, a retail job or works in the school or something like that. so ⁓ gentleman is trying to apply his CFO level analytical skills to what's going on in their relationship. And, you like, I mean, ⁓ could work sort of right ⁓ so this this framework is kind of in a way calling that person out and saying look you can be your analytical self at But you can also add some other softer touches to get a more favorable response from your spouse, right? So that's part of it too. And what you just shared, Jeremy, about the military guys, I would think military folk are very analytical, very process-oriented, very regimented. So it would think, and I really appreciate you saying this, it would seem to me that they would really respond well to something structured like this that would get results that give them a direction and have an outcome, a positive outcome, right? That leads, that's what the
trent.akers: Mm-hmm.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: goal is to lead to a positive outcome.
Jeremy Alcorn: They are definitely regimented, given that they they're in a regiment.
trent.akers: ⁓ Yeah. know, and I I know that you're just coming out with your book, but as I think about this too, I almost think about like family therapy, working with kids, 'cause I'm seeing that this can almost be great application for teenagers and parents ⁓ to learn these skills early on.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Like learn these skills early on. ⁓ man, ⁓ my God, I can't believe Trent you said that. Because when I first sat with it's a friend ⁓ who was helping me as a ⁓ a consultant, a a book consultant, and I sat with him and I had all these ideas and I was just like, name is David, and I'm like, David, I got this, da-da-da-da-da. And and one of them was exactly that, because it would be funny to pitch this to kids and say ⁓ How many times do you ask your parents for something and they say no? Well, what if I could teach you a way for them to say yes, right? The kids would be like, Well, I'm listening, right? You know, like all of us did. Like, how can I get my mom to let me stay out late, right? So, and he said, I think it's a great idea. He's like, but you're a divorce mediator first. And I think your first book in the series is that it's focusing on married couples. Then that's your next book, is for kids. And it's so funny, you brother, power up for teens, because look, we all see conflict in our world, right? We all see what's going on. And I think all three of us would agree that if people just knew how to communicate with each other, we would not be in the mess we are in. Like, it's not that hard.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: people you know be nice be polite be respectful to the other side right you know it's like all this stuff you this basic stuff but if it's not natural to people okay all right fine no problem let's see if we can give you some structure to at least in your own world make that bubble safe and so Wha that'll be the sequel book, so I'll come back on the show when I've got the next book aimed at teens and I'll I'll put you guys in the forward, okay? So I will give you credit for that, I promise.
trent.akers: Awesome. Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: ⁓ man.
Jeremy Alcorn: That's ⁓ that's amazing. I s you're using your stuff on us right now. That was a that was a big give. We we got we gotta lean back into giving back, man. We gotta lean back in.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: There you go. Little Jet little Jedi Mind Trick. Yeah, see that that's it, man. That's how I pull the Jedi Mind tricks, you know. I kinda just kinda lure you in, right? You know You're not sure what's hap hey, wait a minute. Why are we eating the restaurant and seeing the movie he wants? How did this happen? You know You'll have a fun time.
trent.akers: Yeah. So Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Alcorn: So so there is there is one thing, can I as we as we begin to to wrap things up, there's there's one thing that really does jump out of me. and that that has to do with kind of what you bring as a as a person. ⁓ this this is always interesting. See, I got to see Dr. David Burns present on ⁓ on cognitive therapy, and ⁓ and as he presented stuff, it was amazing, except he missed one variable, and that that variable was himself.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah.
trent.akers: Yeah.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Okay.
Jeremy Alcorn: Right. Like ⁓ like something worked out so well. And but part of that was the internal self that that he's bringing bringing in into it. And ⁓ and so what stands out to me and that I really want to represent is that it has to be authentic. I'm sure that you talk about that in in in your process, but that that that it has to come from a a place of benevolence, that always come from a bel benevolent position as you're negotiating with your partner.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right.
Jeremy Alcorn: that it's always about coming from a positive space. ⁓ because you can't shift it somehow and manipulate people. That that's just will never work. They'll see right through it.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's where the reward with value comes in because that's what I was saying before. When you say to the other person, ⁓ you're basically by offering them something, you're saying, Look, I get it. I'll just use the Vegas example. I get it. It's a real big ask that I'm asking you. a a w a full-time working mother, mother of a five-year-old and a three-year-old, to stay at home for four days by yourself with these two kids while I go see my favorite band, go to nightclubs, you know, go out on the town with my buddies. I I want you to know that it's not just me saying, hey, I want to go to Vegas. You never let me go anywhere. And I want to be able to reward you with something so big at or above that I'm showing you that I'm not just like trying to pull a fast one over on you and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do something, you know? And so by doing that, and it's so funny when when you do that, the other person often I and my my reaction often is they're suspicious because now they're looking at you like, You know, I've been talking about going to Wispa for a long time and we we never really had this conversation and now suddenly you're offering it to me. Why? Right? And that's where, as you just said, Jeremy, you have to kind of say, because I realize just how big an ask this is. I get it. And that's one of the things where when you say there's a step, the W in the power-up method is called weigh their perspective. And this, I'll I'll share this with you guys. You can the if you forget everything we talked about today, this is the number one move. Okay, so remember this one. This is the separates the amateurs from the pros. When you go into a conversation and you come in, the first thing you do is make the other person's argument for them. It seems so counterintuitive. If I come in and I go, Jeremy, I know you hate Thai food and I know you hate the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but hear me out. I really want to check out this new place that opened downtown and there's a seven o'clock show. And if you agree to go with me, I'll pick up dinner in the movie and then next week we can go, you know, bowling and live animal juggling, because I know you've been wanting to do that for the past three months, right? And so I love live animal juggling. Who doesn't, right? Exactly. But you see what you did is like you were ready.
Jeremy Alcorn: How did you know I love live animal juggling?
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Now Jeremy's got nowhere to go. He goes, Well he knows I don't want to go for Ty and he knows I don't want to see that Marvel movie. Man, I got I got no argument left. What did he just do? He took it, he took the steam out of this conversation and he offered me something. He's gonna pay for it and I'm gonna get something else. That's where benevolence comes in, right? Because that can kind of come across as manipulative. Like, okay, what what is he really? Are we really gonna go to the movie or is he really gonna go juggling with me? Like, you know, like you start doubting, and then it's following through on it. Then when we're out there and we've got the squirrels and we're going crazy and you know doing whatever we're doing. You're like, wow, Joe's a guy of his word. And that builds up over time. And we all know this from our professions is that you've got to be a person of your word and you have to be a person of your word all the time. Because again, right, it builds over you go, it's this a safe person. This is a person I know that if I talk to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get an honest answer. They're gonna follow through. They're gonna do what they said. That's the person I want to be in a relationship with. That's the friend I want. Because we all also have the other friend who says, Yeah, I know it's ⁓ it's 6:30 and I know I'm supposed to be at the restaurant now, but yeah, I just didn't feel like it. And you're sitting there going, Now I'm at this table by myself, right? Looking like a fool, and this person doesn't follow through. So I'm not gonna make plans with this person anymore. So That's the one. Remember that one. Weigh their perspective. When you say and you gotta think about it. You gotta think about what I use a simple example, but what really is going to be the objection that this person is gonna come back with me? I really might have to dig in and think about what it is and posit it to them. And then when they hear that, it's kind of like, well, wait a minute, person's making my case for me. What are they doing? And that's where the conversation starts. So so that's your that's your nugget of the day right there. So use that little trick on your friends and Family and see report back to me on how it goes.
Jeremy Alcorn: Sweet. So ⁓ so Trent, I kinda gave my two bits ⁓ as we wrap things up. What are you thinking?
trent.akers: Well, o honestly like it's really hard to choose just one thing here, Joe. But ⁓ like the one thing that I really want to take away from this is that like you've walked us through all of these examples and I think the one thing I wanna slam home to the to our listeners or our watchers if you're watching this on video is that this is definitely something where the rubber hits the road and like where it's about how like the given the get. I think that that is something so key for people to negotiate in good faith. And I think that's something that's missing. So that's really my big takeaway from this and I will definitely be recommending this to my clients.
Joe Dillon | POWER UP Method: Yeah. Yeah, thanks guys. I appreciate that. And I appreciate your real time feedback because, you know, you sit here in your little bubble and you're writing your book and you think it's the greatest thing that you've come up with in the world, right? And and you know, I hope maybe, you know, one day, you know, we'll we'll be in a New York Times bestseller list or you'll see me on the Today show and yeah, I remember that guy. You know, and and it's but it's just again, it's like you you're saying, I think Jeremy, I think it was you who said this, is that You know, we all just want to put stuff out in the world. Like I think all three of us are in helping professions and we're all helpers by nature. And we know that we can't solve the world's ills, but if we can make things better, I'm not a particularly religious guy, but I kind of very much follow that whole Buddhist philosophy of you know, you throw a stone into the pond and it makes a hundred ripples, and if I can be the stone and those ripples can go out and touch people and and and so on and so forth. You know, that's not a bad way to go. You know, it's not a bad legacy to have. So that's that's really all I'm trying to do is just I've seen the patterns, I want to help people improve their lives. Cause I I've been married twenty one years and and it hasn't been easy, but it's been very rewarding. And you know, Cheryl and I, we, you know, fight like elegant diplomats, right? We use these techniques with each other and you know the conversations meander along, but they always get to somewhere positive, and that's what I hope other other folks can achieve.
Jeremy Alcorn: Amazing.
trent.akers: Awesome. Yeah. that note, I'm Dred Nakers.
Jeremy Alcorn: I'm Jeremy Alcorn.
trent.akers: See you next time.
