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[Electronic beat]
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[Enda:] Welcome to Futures Conversations,
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the Edinburgh Futures Institute podcast
that showcases
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all the wonderful research taking place
at the Edinburgh Futures Institute.
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Research at the Futures Institute
is challenge-led and interdisciplinary
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addressing many of the greatest challenges
we face in the world today.
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I'm your host, Enda Delaney,
the Director of Research at the Futures Institute.
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[Electronic beat]
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[Enda:] In this episode, I'm joined
by Professor Sean Smith.
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Sean is chair of Future Construction
in the School of Engineering and director
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and director of the Center for Future Infrastructure
at the Futures Institute.
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Sean, could you tell us a little bit
about your background, where you grew up,
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who inspired you as a teacher?
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What values were important to your family
and wider social group?-
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[Sean:] I grew up in Edinburgh
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and also Dundee in a small village
called Errol in Perthshire,
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and very much enjoyed the whole idea
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of both of living in a sort of urban
and suburban and rural area.
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So I had the chance to sort of
see all of that.
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And my family were all farmers
by background.
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But I would say probably some key
changes in terms of career path of,
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you know, where was I going, etc.
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I was really struck
by the whole construction
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industry and infrastructure,
how it can change people's lives,
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the opportunity not just be at the desk,
but be out and about visiting sites,
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and also the
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innovations that happen
across that landscape.
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I was very, very fortunate.
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I did my studies at Heriot-Watt
University, my first degree there
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in Building Economics and Quantity Surveying.
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Although I realised that quantity surveying
wasn't for me
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and sort of cost calculations.
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I really enjoyed the whole
architectural technology journey,
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learning about kind of noise
and vibration in structures.
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And very importantly,
we had a couple of lecturers
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who were very innovative,
who worked really closely with industry,
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and they were very kind and took us
sometimes, on some of their projects
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they were doing with industry.
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And I think that inspired me in the end,
when I finished my degree,
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that I would
then focus specifically looking at sort of
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the future of sort of noise
and vibration in structures.
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So that was my first point,
and specifically around construction technologies.-
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[Enda:] I read somewhere that Lego was a key
formative influence.
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I don't know if...
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Can you tell us a bit more about your
your love of Lego, erm, growing up?-
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[Sean:] Well, very much.
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I think for many people
who are in the sector and, and beyond this
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in design and creativity
and things, Lego has played
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an integral part of people's lives
when they were young.
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The chance not just to obviously follow
the build instructions
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and things of what you're building,
but then to innovate and adapt
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and build and design your own structures.
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And I used to take great pride
as a- as a young boy
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I’d run down the stairs and show my mum,
what I’d built with, with something
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that was not meant to be on the box but
[laughs]
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certainly looked and looked quite different.-
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[Enda:] It sounds like that
some of your teachers at Heriot-Watt
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actually inspired you to-
to do what you do today.
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Were there any people in particular,
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or was it just the whole sort
of ethos and environment?-
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[Sean:] I mean, there were several-
several lecturers,
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Hunter Cairns
taught us on Architectural Technology,
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as did David McKenzie, who also taught us
about building acoustics
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and noise and vibration in buildings,
and both had been involved
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in the development of new products
for the construction sector.
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So that in itself, their background,
their knowledge, how much they shared
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with us about their journeys
with some of the products,
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and where they were then being used,
and also some of the testing
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and development they did.
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And I think that was, a trigger point
for me to get interested
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in research and development and R&D.-
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[Enda:] So, within your sort of wider
family and social group,
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was it unusual to go into academia
or into what you do or-
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was that quite- quite normal or, you know?
Essentially did you stand out,
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or was this a sort of a predestined
pathway for you?-
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[Sean:] Definitely wasn't predestined.
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Certainly, I was one of the first or second
in my kind of family generation,
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if you look across my aunts and uncles,
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of- of my cousins, of people
who went to university,
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and the best advice I had
was that nothing is set in stone.
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And I always carried that thinking,
you will change your mind on things,
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you might change the career path
and I think I've changed mine 2 or 3
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over the period.
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But everything has an inflection point
when it comes back.
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When you think:
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Ah! I remember that particular moment when-
when something changed that made
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you think about that's a different career
path.-
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[Enda:] And so what was your route into academia
and becoming a university professor?-
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[Sean:] Well, initially I came through,
I would say probably the standard route.
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I started my PhD.
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The PhD went part time
when the mathematical models
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we were looking at to predict noise
and vibration in buildings,
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those mathematical models
we could take to any structure,
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all we could change
was the material properties,
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but the actual noise and vibration,
the waveform,
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etcetera, the frequencies, etcetera,
where things occur.
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We can change that
with a mathematical model.
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And so that was very attractive
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to the Ministry of Defence
and the Defence Research Agency.
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They really liked our complex models.
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And so I started a research fellowship,
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working for DERA, the Defence Evaluation
Research Agency for three years
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to predict, vibration in complex
structures for helicopters and aircraft.
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I was very fortunate.
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We had a tremendous mentor
from the Defence Research Agency.
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Sadly, he's passed away now.
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But many people might have seen James Bond
and know Q the inventor
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and of course, Ian Fleming,
the writer of Bond based
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so many of Q's attributes
on what we call SSOs,
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who are the Senior Scientific Officers
of the Defence Research Agency.
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And in fact,
there are six Senior Scientific Officers,
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and I worked
for one of the Senior Scientific Officers.
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So if someone had told me as a young boy
watching James Bond, that later in life
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I'd be working for the equivalent of Q,
I think I would have burst out laughing [laughs]
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So I came through that path, finished the PhD,
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finished the research fellowship contract,
and then had the chance to go overseas.
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So I went to work partly in Canada
for the Canadian government.
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The construction research laboratories.
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And then I spent 18 months in Italy
working for the Italian government
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in Turin and Torino,
which was a wonderful opportunity.
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And then following that,
I went to work, for the German government
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Research Laboratories in Braunschweig
at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt,
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which is the the state Government Science
and Physics Metrology Center.
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I've been in all the projects
I've been involved with,
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whether it was Canada, Italy, Germany,
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my work when I came back to Scotland,
where I- where I joined
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Rob McKenzie Partnership, it
absolutely influences everything I do.
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And one of the exciting things is
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you see the challenges that the industry
has in construction and infrastructure.
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You see the pressures
they're under for material resources
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to do things better,
to improve circular economy.
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We use circular economy today
very much as a as a standard term.
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It wasn't a term used by the industry
many years ago.
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It was just about waste reduction
and trying to reuse the optimum materials
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we had and in many cases reuse buildings
through conversions and change of use.
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And I remember
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one of the first big conversions
I was on was an old church building,
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and an old convent, and it was amazing
converting that into apartments,
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and working with the architects
and designers.
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I've had the great fortune
to work with great research colleagues,
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and we've developed five patents,
and we have 17 patented
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products in the market,
which are manufactured in the UK
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and sold and owned
also by multinationals.-
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[Enda:] What does your field,
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which broadly we could describe as future
infrastructure, what does that encompass?
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How would you explain that
to a non-expert?-
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[Sean:] Well, infrastructure in the round
is almost everything around us from,
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from the physical manmade elements
of transport, buildings and roads, etc.,
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through to power lines and infrastructure
that supports our energy infrastructure,
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but also looking at some of the natural
infrastructure,
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for example, use of forests
and how we can bind soils and reduce,
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you know, for example, slippage
in embankments or hillsides, etc.,
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right through to marine preservation
and coastal protection and also
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specifically and more importantly,
addressing climate change.
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So the actual role
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within infrastructure is-
is multifaceted and that's the perfect reason
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why it should be based
in the Edinburgh Futures Institute.-
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[Enda:] I was fascinated
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reading about you,
the work that you did on medical acoustics
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and preterm infants,
which I know was at an earlier stage in your career.
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Could you tell us a little bit about that?
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It seems a very practical case of where
high level research informs
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actually improving people's
lives on a day to day basis?-
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[Sean:] Yeah, it was a really interesting piece of work.
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Going back a wee while.
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This is when I was in an acoustics
research laboratory at Heriot-Watt.
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We had a- we have what's known
as anechoic chambers and anechoic chambers
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is where no sound or vibration
can enter or exit these test facilities.
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So it's a great way to measure directly
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how sound travels
from one source to another.
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And we had a visit from
a series of teachers who
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were teaching various projects
that the university had been linked to.
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We thought it'd be nice to bring the
teachers and and show them the facilities.
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And they walked into the anechoic chamber,
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and two of the teachers immediately
felt unwell and had to leave.
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And both teachers, we subsequently
found, had a hearing deficit.
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Two weeks later we had
a visit from schoolchildren
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who were profoundly deaf.
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And when they went into the anechoic chamber,
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all of them immediately felt unwell.
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It was almost as if we'd taken away
any natural stimulus that was around them.
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And we jump forward about 4 or 5 years.
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And I'm now working in Italy.
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And, there had been discussions of how,
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we'd had a visit from,
to a colleague of mine, visits
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from the medical experts in Turin
and also from Rome,
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who were looking at the opportunities of
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when the foetus is in utero, in the womb,
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the opportunity and the importance
of the mother's voice and voices which penetrate it.
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They had seen and had been reported that there was
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better ventilation, better-
better receptacle
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to this kind of stimulus,
this natural stimulus of frequencies
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and that very same day,
there was an article about what they call
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‘La Mort Bleue’
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which is, also described as a SIDs
or Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
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And the issues around children
who these young-
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sorry, infants
who are generally 3 to 4 months old,
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who commonly have issues
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of influenza B, for example,
type of flu, or other issues,
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when- when they have cot death
or suffer from that terrible tragedy.
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And that very day
I had the most horrendous cold.
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I was coming down with the flu
and my hearing was affected,
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and I reminded myself of the issues
of the deaf and the profoundly deaf
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going into the anechoic chamber, how we'd
stripped away any natural environment,
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and when you looked
at a lot of the guidance
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for infants to avoid-
to parents to avoid pre-term deaths
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such as sudden infant death syndrome,
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then the issues around
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audibility, hearing, synapsis, etc.
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and, things like,
you know, don't, you know, cover up
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with lots of materials,
you know, blankets and pillows.
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These are highly absorptive.
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And that started me
thinking is that, you know,
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eighth cranial nerve, is the auditory
nerve more important than we think?
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And we often hear about people
saying that when someone's
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in their last phase of life,
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they may not see you,
but the likelihood is they will hear you.
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And therefore, is it one of the last,
parts of our primary system to shut down?
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And we know it's linked to the thalamus
and the hypothalamus,
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and that controls our natural body
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mechanisms such as breathing, etc.
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So, I raced home, and went home with,
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several books and papers
and hid under the covers
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as I recovered from the flu myself
and read back to back all these papers,
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and on the Monday morning
came back in and met my colleague
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who had met with the medical experts,
and I said to him, I need you to sit down.
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And we drew up on the whiteboard
and I showed them this pathway of how auditory sound
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could influence various things
and cardiorespiratory function,
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and actually it could be more important
than we thought.
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And following that,
we then contacted researchers in New Zealand,
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a wonderful researcher called Malcolm
Stewart, who at that time was in USA.
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And when we sent him
our kind of concept theory,
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he was delighted
because he had worked in a similar area.
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And we had synergy.
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And so we then read about 400 papers
and then summarised that.
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And then the paper was published
in the journal,
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International Journal of Prenatal
and Neonatal Medicine.
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One key bit of advice was,
and this was very important, was
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that it was important for
we felt for the infant
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to be sleeping in the same room,
not the same bed, but the same room
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as the parents,
because there's a natural stimulus
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when the parents are in the same room,
their breathing and other sounds.
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And obviously all the advice
about the position of the baby, etc.
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you know, the Back to Sleep campaign,
all our areas agreed with that.
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Because if you're not back to-
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on your back to sleep,
if you're on your side or your front,
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you will attenuate the auditory
nerve’s function, etc.
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and the blood flow.
249
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And so we’d recommended that.
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And so shortly after that
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there was a major international study
that then followed that up.
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And then the advice came from that
which is printed in all the
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sort of, newborn leaflets for parents.
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It's strongly advised that the infant
for the first six months
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sleeps in the same room, not the same bed,
so the cot can be near the bed.
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And, that's been advice ever since.
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So I think we were part of,
let's see, a series of people at that time
258
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who were very focused
on that area and our-
259
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I wouldn't say we led it, but I would say
the fact that the press coverage
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we got from both the BBC
and international newspapers,
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when the journal got published
and our article,
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drew a lot of attention to the area
and that if anything, I'm delighted with.-
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[Enda:] Could you tell us a little bit more
about how your research is informed?
264
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Sound insulation in domestic homes
and in the UK and internationally?
265
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,720
Could you tell us a little bit about it?-
[Sean:] Sure. Delighted to.
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So when I was doing the PhD,
267
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,160
looking at sound and vibration
in buildings and structures.
268
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That is all part and parcel
of looking at the overall
269
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,560
sound insulation
which you have between housing.
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00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,360
So this is what we call attached housing,
like terraced or semi-detached
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or flatted or apartment type buildings.
272
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And there's some key
regulations and standards.
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Now, those regulations and standards
do vary between countries.
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But nevertheless they're important
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because as a quality of life aspect
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interruption to sleep or other things through,
277
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you know, unwanted noise or unwanted
sound, such as noise is a real issue,
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particularly for young children
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and also for adults,
because it interrupts your sleep patterns.
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00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,600
And what happened was, from the work
we were doing, the-
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the English or UK government-
the English government
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were changing their building regulations.
283
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,840
And at that time they had, proposed
a brand new criteria
284
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for how you measure sound insulation.
285
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Quite different to anything-
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no one else in the world
was using at that time.
287
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,240
And they’d sort of almost taken
a different standard
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00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,240
for a completely different aspect
and brought that in.
289
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,280
And the house building industry
at the time were quite concerned that
290
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how were they going to address this
new criteria?
291
00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,760
How do you meet this new sound insulation
292
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,000
and how do you design for it?
And how do you build the walls and floors
293
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,440
that divide all these housing and apartment
units to meet the new criteria?
294
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,160
And we were very fortunate.
295
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:09,960
And this is where data is key.
296
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We were sitting at the time in our
university and our research facility,
297
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,680
and also with the Robin McKenzie Partnership
on a lot of field test data.
298
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,800
And so we proposed it would may be useful
to look at an alternative approach,
299
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,040
which is where you can actually design
in enhanced sound insulation.
300
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,320
So you build well beyond the standard.
301
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,320
And you're not going to have to test-
do that test of compliance.
302
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,080
And that was the big issue
the industry was facing in England, Wales.
303
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,080
How do you test and comply
if there's not enough testers?
304
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,840
And if you're actually building
very similar archetype
305
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,120
type approaches in new build of housing
and the type of construction,
306
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,920
how could you in fact standardise that?
307
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,440
And so we won the contract to investigate
and develop that.
308
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,160
The- the government gave the industry
a 12 months to deliver alternatives.
309
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,880
We told the industry, statistically,
you need to test every wall and floor,
310
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,400
different construction- different,
you know, houses, but the same design
311
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,520
30 times to have statistical significance.
312
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They loved us for that one.
313
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,040
And then we proposed a series of
constructions for them to build and test.
314
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,640
And it was to the Home
Builders Federation.
315
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,760
And that was all the major and medium
size housebuilders
316
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,400
across England and Wales.
317
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They absolutely rallied to the for-
318
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,960
We assembled five working groups, 119
committee members.
319
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,280
We issued the designs within six weeks
of being appointed on the project,
320
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and they built for us 1400 brand new homes
321
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,360
with the designs in six and a half months
all tested.
322
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,200
And again thanks to building control,
the local authorities, the warranty providers
323
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,040
because they had to accept our
recommendations for these new designs.
324
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,200
And we were delighted to see the
government then and adopt that approach.
325
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,640
And the industry, we designed it
into a handbook and published it,
326
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,360
and the government then decided
instead of just a one off handbook,
327
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:02,160
let's keep this live.
328
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,000
Let's allow new innovation to come forward.
329
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000
So an organisation was set up
called Robust Details and,
330
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,680
I was initially director of that
to get it going.
331
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,680
And I rejoined the company back in 2017.
332
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,080
And it's- it's a wonderful opportunity
how you could create a modal shift
333
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,800
for the whole sector, supporting evidence
underpinning data, standardised approach.
334
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,760
And, over 1.6 million homes
have now been built with those designs.-
335
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,120
[Enda:] Have have our attitudes toward,
what you might call
336
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520
noise being seen as a disturbance,
337
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,600
have they changed over time?-
338
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:38,360
[Sean:] I think they have.
339
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,360
I think partly
maybe because of the source of noise.
340
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,720
If you go back to the ‘90s, in the 1990s,
341
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,440
the main driver behind England and Wales
changing their building regulations
342
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,880
and improving sound insulation levels
was because of the number of complaints
343
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,520
went up fourfold in the domestic sector,
not commercial, not environmental noise.
344
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,760
It was the housing sector.
345
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,240
So many people were listening to bass
music, you know, garage, rave, etc.
346
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,200
and that probably really sort of
infused the government to say
347
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,720
we need to address this.
348
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,680
Now we cannot do it
retrospectively in existing stock.
349
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200
It's not a health and safety-
It's not a structural issue.
350
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,520
But we can do it for new build.
351
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,520
And that's why
when they designed this new criteria
352
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,720
that they brought in- they made a big,
big focus on lifting the requirements
353
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,160
of the minimum amount of insulation
you need at low frequencies,
354
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,280
which we had to design to meet.-
355
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,040
[Enda:] In the past 15 years or so,
356
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440
you've very much concentrated
on sustainable construction.
357
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,160
What are the challenges,
that we face in our efforts
358
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,600
to achieve net zero emissions?-
359
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,560
[Sean:] As we look to the future,
360
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,960
one of the issues
is that the global population will rise
361
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,400
from about 8 billion
to about 11.3 billion by the year 2100.
362
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,480
That's going to place
huge, huge resources-
363
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,960
pressures on materials, land
availability, etc.
364
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,760
but particularly on materials.
365
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520
And so to meet that demand
we will need
366
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,400
to build, over the next
75 years, 1.2 billion homes.
367
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,160
Now, in addition
to that, people are also living longer,
368
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,080
which is wonderful,
you know, fantastic health facilities.
369
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,960
And- and as more and more countries
improve their
370
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,600
approach to health and solutions
that they have,
371
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600
so more people around
the world will live longer, too.
372
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,920
And what that does do, though, is that
then as more people live longer,
373
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,760
it reduces the supply of housing
coming back onto the market
374
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,480
and also sadly with divorce
and other things.
375
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,160
And so you need new households to support.
376
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,680
And this puts huge household pressure.
377
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,960
So we need another 800
million homes over the next 75 years.
378
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,000
If this trend continues globally,
that's 2 billion homes.
379
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,480
And the pull on material resources around
the world will just be huge
380
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,040
if it's not already.
381
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440
So it's incredibly important
we do things as sustainably as we can.
382
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,240
We reutilise materials, we reutilise-
383
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,680
we look at design, from the very first thing
that we do right from the design stage,
384
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,680
how do we maximise that delivery
but reduce the effect of footprint
385
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,440
of materials and resource?
And net zero, which is a separate
386
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,720
but almost equal challenge,
has had various,
387
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,800
let's say, journeys
of different play in different countries.
388
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,600
The UK, we- we for example,
in construction, in housing,
389
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,360
we devolve the targets effectively
that we're looking at.
390
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,600
Specifically the Scottish Government
has its own targets,
391
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,640
but nevertheless
it will still wrap into the UK targets.
392
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,640
So the Scottish targets are 2045
for net zero
393
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,760
UK targets, most of European targets
are 2050.
394
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,160
And whilst across the UK, we have reduced
overall emissions by about 53%
395
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,560
since the 1990 levels to where we are now
today in 2024.
396
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960
We're in that tough period where we've not
really reduced effectively for housing.
397
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,520
We've not reduced effectively
for agriculture.
398
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,280
And our transport emissions
make up 25% of the emissions
399
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,280
that we currently have,
and that's another key target.
400
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,200
So the amount of work and graft
to do over this
401
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200
next 20 to 25 years is significant.
402
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,920
And we're in,
I would say the difficult stage
403
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,560
because we have done some of the easy bits.
404
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,560
We've done some of that low hanging fruit
and we really, really need to up the game
405
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,920
and accelerate as quickly
as we can.
406
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,080
And finally, I would say
it's not all about data and technologies.
407
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,240
We need to take society with us.
408
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,200
I mean, for example, two years ago,
if you wanted to do some sort of
409
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,840
green measures on your home,
there are about 7 or 8 different types
410
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,440
of funding stream and different
funding aspects from governments
411
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,080
depending on what you were looking at,
and that was very complex for people.
412
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560
So I think we need to streamline it,
simplify it.
413
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,400
Just looking at Edinburgh and Glasgow
alone. Just take- just the housing,
414
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,560
forget transport, anything else
but just to retrofit where we are.
415
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,440
That's a 35 billion pound market over
the next 20 years.
416
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,600
Scotland needs to retrofit
roughly about 135,000 homes per year.
417
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,560
England needs to retrofit
approximately 900,000 homes per year,
418
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,080
and Europe needs to retrofit, every year
till 2050,
419
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,120
11 million homes per year.-
420
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,200
[Enda:] I think this takes us to your role within the Futures Institute,
421
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,000
as director of the Center for Future Infrastructure.
What does the centre do?-
422
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,160
[Sean:] Well, the centre really acts as a-
as a bridge between many of the aspects
423
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160
happening in engineering
across all areas of engineering,
424
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200
and also within the college of Science
and Engineering and linking
425
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,520
right across the university.
426
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,520
So very much the EFI,
the Edinburgh Futures Institute model,
427
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,880
the Centre for Future Infrastructure
by being based there.
428
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,600
Its purpose is to look and solve
and work with interdisciplinary teams.
429
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,080
So that's working with architecture.
430
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Could be the law school,
it could be geosciences,
431
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240
it could be social sciences or humanities,
it could be the business school.
432
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,240
So the purpose of the centre
433
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,640
is not to run a- get lots
and lots of academic research staff.
434
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,360
The purpose is to link across
who are our experts, where are they
435
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,680
in the different schools and research
institutes across the university.
436
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,640
where we need them to come together
and be the interdisciplinary team?
437
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,720
I mean, just some examples of projects
we've worked with geosciences
438
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,160
and architecture,
looking at projects around Dubai.
439
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Similarly,
we've worked with similar diverse schools
440
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960
around projects
looking at sustainability in Galapagos.
441
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520
We've had projects recently
in South Africa-
442
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,920
sorry, South America, where they're looking
at issues around new infrastructure
443
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,800
for dams and also the issue
around the legal aspects for that.
444
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,200
So it's- it's quite a diverse
but a wonderful area
445
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,240
to be in because infrastructure touches
so many areas.
446
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,640
It's almost a keystone.
447
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680
We take so much of it for granted,
but nevertheless
448
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,280
we use it day in and day out
and it plays such a critical role.
449
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,800
So that's that's the purpose of CFI to go
after some of these key challenges
450
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,440
around climate change and
infrastructure, particularly resilience.
451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400
But also to to bring
all these different partners together,
452
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520
all these diverse and wonderful
academic colleagues that we have
453
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,040
at the University of Edinburgh
454
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,480
and also work
with industry, public sector,
455
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880
whether it's advising on future
skills pathways,
456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,880
which we've been doing for the region,
and also for the UK,
457
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,560
where it's looking at the opportunities
around new skills
458
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,920
that will be needed for the future,
the new technologies which are coming.
459
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,200
So we're assessing some world
firsts and new heating systems
460
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000
that are coming to market,
which is very exciting, but also listening
461
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520
to the societal needs
462
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,560
and that sort of, touchstone of
where is society going?
463
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680
Are the on side with us,
with where we're trying to get to
464
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,560
what could make it easier,
and how do we infuse them to stay with us?
465
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,360
And when people were saving, many years
ago and planning for their pension,
466
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,000
they probably hadn't planned
467
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,240
that they might have to spend 15
or 20,000 pounds retrofitting their home
468
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240
and an additional,
maybe 20 or 25 thousands over
469
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,240
and above what they were expecting to pay
for an electric vehicle,
470
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,520
in addition to installing
electric charging points, etc..
471
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,000
So it's a new dynamic.
472
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800
It's complex.
473
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,840
It weighs heavily on some people's
shoulders how they might afford that.
474
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,400
And so we need to make sure
that we are 1) simplifying that process,
475
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,840
innovating to reduce the costs
476
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040
and improving how people will interact
with that and take it forward.-
477
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520
[Enda:] Where do you see
political leadership featuring?-
478
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,840
[Sean:] This is something because it's 2045
or 2050 deadlines for net zero,
479
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,200
and this is not something
that's a 4 or 5 year political cycle.
480
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,880
This is something you invest in now for
the future, and none more so than skills.
481
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,200
We need a kind of joined up approach
across government in construction.
482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,680
And that has perhaps been lacking a bit.
483
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,720
I saw many years ago a very good model.
484
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,720
This is about, oh, 15, 16 years ago.
485
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000
I won't say where if that's okay,
but it was a government department we were working with,
486
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,320
where they had effectively
487
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120
a very, very senior
civil servant who led construction.
488
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,360
And whilst the sector was,
you know, crisscrossing 6 or 7
489
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,400
ministerial portfolios,
490
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,960
he linked everything together
and tried to make sure
491
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560
there was an association
or link with them.
492
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,840
When he left, he wasn't replaced.
493
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,280
And suddenly that- there was a loss.
494
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,200
There was no construction minister either.
495
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,440
So there was no one to drive things forward.
496
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,680
And we've seen both in the 2013 review,
for example, of the review-
497
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,240
the review of procurement
in construction, they recommended
498
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960
having a Construction Czar
or a Minister for Construction.
499
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280
And I did a review
for the new housing skills
500
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
for future new housing
and one of the 40 recommendations
501
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,400
there was to have, we need a Construction
Minister or a Senior Construction Czar
502
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840
who’s in the civil service
because it's so important.
503
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,160
To get to net zero construction and
infrastructure is absolutely paramount,
504
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760
and you can't have so many things
crisscrossing
505
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,000
6 or 7 government agencies
with no connected tie up-
506
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000
[Enda:] You were very recently
awarded a large grant from UK Research
507
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,080
and Innovation,
and congratulations on that
508
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,120
for a new Centre
for Net Zero High Density Building.
509
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,640
How do you think this funding
510
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,640
will transform practices
within the construction industry?-
511
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600
[Sean:] We- we're in some pretty difficult times
when you're looking at net zero.
512
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,320
The reason that we looked
at the high density buildings is
513
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,120
let's just take Edinburgh and Glasgow.
514
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:45,000
They are 68% and 70% flats,
so the highest proportion of flatted
515
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,080
or apartment dwellings in the UK.
London is about 52%.
516
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,320
The UK average is 20%.
517
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,160
And Scotland
actually has a higher average, about 38%.
518
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,200
But nevertheless, the complexities
of dense streetscapes, different types
519
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,600
of archetypes of buildings going back
400 years, stone developments, etc.
520
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,440
traditional, historic and listed,
521
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,080
plus the complexity of bringing in perhaps
future district community heating,
522
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,680
testing new technologies, the skills
523
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,200
and the data required for that, and also
that occupant interaction behaviour.
524
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,200
That was the foundation
of setting up the centre.
525
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,200
So we could have multiple workstreams
that were talking to each other,
526
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640
new heating technologies, new materials,
green approaches,
527
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640
archetypes, district community
heating, sensors, etc., etc.
528
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,160
and skills.
529
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,840
And for the sector itself,
the sector is thriving.
530
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,000
It is innovating where it can.
531
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,040
It's testing and developing
and they need support.
532
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,000
And that is the role of the centre.
533
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,080
The centre will support the industry,
both public sector, private, commercial.
534
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,680
It goes beyond just housing.
535
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760
It's going to look at non-domestic
as well.
536
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,920
And it will also, as we're
currently doing, working with new housing.
537
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,000
For example,
538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,920
the Edinburgh home demonstrator down
at Granton is one of the sort of,
539
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120
real pushers of the envelope of where
we're going with net zero for housing.
540
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,240
And it’s great to be involved with that.
541
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
And, in the future, that could be a,
you know,
542
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800
a major test bed for so many of the things
that are to come.
543
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,760
But we think it's very important
having such wonderful partners.
544
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,360
So it's- Edinburgh's leading it
with Glasgow University,
545
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Strathclyde University,
Napier University, West of Scotland.
546
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,680
And we're working with the-
the industry’s forerunner in innovation
547
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120
and development which is known as ‘BEST’:
Built Environment Smart Transformation.
548
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,200
We have 58 partners.
549
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800
That's given me a few grey hairs,
drawing them together.
550
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,680
From public, government, social housing,
industry, manufacturers, etc..
551
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,480
And I think collectively that four year project,
all being well,
552
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280
every few months will be pumping out
reports, knowledge exchange and workshops
553
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,240
to accelerate that delivery of net zero
for this really important area,
554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,240
which is high density
buildings and cities.-
555
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,160
[Enda:] We're here in the Edinburgh
Futures Institute.
556
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,160
What sort of future do you envisage
given your expertise?-
557
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,720
[Sean:] Sometimes people ask me
‘what gives you sleepless nights?’
558
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,280
and I'd say the whole issue around
building in the resilience
559
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,040
we need for our infrastructure
with climate change.
560
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,760
I think we've seen
with the recent tragic events in Valencia,
561
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,360
in Spain, Malaga,
Barcelona, Italy, with similar floods,
562
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,400
this- this terrible Storm Boris
this this summer
563
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,200
in Europe, which impacted seven countries.
564
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,520
And the scale of flooding and basically
our roads are turning into rivers.
565
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,040
They've become the conduit
for most of the flood waters now,
566
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,880
and the damage to people's lives
567
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,480
and property is so significant
and the intensity is increasing.
568
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200
So we've seen a huge increase
in the intensity
569
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,160
and also the number of storms
in terms of that intensity in Europe,
570
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,720
in America,
they classify as billion dollar events.
571
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
And back in about 2003,
they had 2 or 3 events.
572
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,960
In 2023,
they had 23 major billion dollar events
573
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,880
due to forest fires
or flooding and storms.
574
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760
We saw with Hurricane Helene,
575
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,720
in- in the USA,
the whole issue there of-
576
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040
absolutely everybody was right
to focus on storm surge,
577
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,840
the Florida Panhandle.
578
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,760
I think no one could quite foresee with
suddenly that slow movement of the storm
579
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,640
as it sat over the- the states
further to the north, like North Carolina,
580
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
the sheer scale of damage
that would ensue.
581
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,640
And then more recently with the other one,
with Hurricane Milton,
582
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,920
which crisscrossed
the panhandle of Florida.
583
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,800
And everybody did the right thing.
They got out of-
584
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,000
this is going to be the pathway.
585
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Okay, we'll get out of that pathway.
586
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,120
We'll move north or south.
587
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,240
But no one could have foresaw
we'd have 140 tornadoes
588
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120
to the south of the hurricane pathway,
where people thought they would be
589
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
more safe, but
in fact turned out to be more dangerous.-
590
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,360
[Enda:] Thank you very much for coming in
to tell us about your fascinating work.-
591
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,360
[Sean:] Thank thanks very much, Enda.
592
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,760
[Electronic beat]
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,720
[Electronic beat]
2
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,080
[Enda:] Welcome to Futures Conversations,
3
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,480
the Edinburgh Futures Institute podcast
that showcases
4
00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,400
all the wonderful research taking place
at the Edinburgh Futures Institute.
5
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720
Research at the Futures Institute
is challenge-led and interdisciplinary
6
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,680
addressing many of the greatest challenges
we face in the world today.
7
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,800
I'm your host, Enda Delaney,
the Director of Research at the Futures Institute.
8
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,520
[Electronic beat]
9
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,080
[Enda:] In this episode, I'm joined
by Professor Sean Smith.
10
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,600
Sean is chair of Future Construction
in the School of Engineering and director
11
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,760
and director of the Center for Future Infrastructure
at the Futures Institute.
12
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,600
Sean, could you tell us a little bit
about your background, where you grew up,
13
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,240
who inspired you as a teacher?
14
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,360
What values were important to your family
and wider social group?-
15
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,160
[Sean:] I grew up in Edinburgh
16
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,880
and also Dundee in a small village
called Errol in Perthshire,
17
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,160
and very much enjoyed the whole idea
18
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,160
of both of living in a sort of urban
and suburban and rural area.
19
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,560
So I had the chance to sort of
see all of that.
20
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,560
And my family were all farmers
by background.
21
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,880
But I would say probably some key
changes in terms of career path of,
22
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,040
you know, where was I going, etc.
23
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,920
I was really struck
by the whole construction
24
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,120
industry and infrastructure,
how it can change people's lives,
25
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,520
the opportunity not just be at the desk,
but be out and about visiting sites,
26
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:29,040
and also the
27
00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,040
innovations that happen
across that landscape.
28
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,680
I was very, very fortunate.
29
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,320
I did my studies at Heriot-Watt
University, my first degree there
30
00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:39,800
in Building Economics and Quantity Surveying.
31
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,280
Although I realised that quantity surveying
wasn't for me
32
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,240
and sort of cost calculations.
33
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,160
I really enjoyed the whole
architectural technology journey,
34
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,160
learning about kind of noise
and vibration in structures.
35
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,160
And very importantly,
we had a couple of lecturers
36
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,200
who were very innovative,
who worked really closely with industry,
37
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,360
and they were very kind and took us
sometimes, on some of their projects
38
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,040
they were doing with industry.
39
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,120
And I think that inspired me in the end,
when I finished my degree,
40
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,360
that I would
then focus specifically looking at sort of
41
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,520
the future of sort of noise
and vibration in structures.
42
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:16,480
So that was my first point,
and specifically around construction technologies.-
43
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,760
[Enda:] I read somewhere that Lego was a key
formative influence.
44
00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:19,800
I don't know if...
45
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,080
Can you tell us a bit more about your
your love of Lego, erm, growing up?-
46
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:24,920
[Sean:] Well, very much.
47
00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:28,200
I think for many people
who are in the sector and, and beyond this
48
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,560
in design and creativity
and things, Lego has played
49
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,560
an integral part of people's lives
when they were young.
50
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,080
The chance not just to obviously follow
the build instructions
51
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,400
and things of what you're building,
but then to innovate and adapt
52
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,400
and build and design your own structures.
53
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,240
And I used to take great pride
as a- as a young boy
54
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,360
I’d run down the stairs and show my mum,
what I’d built with, with something
55
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,240
that was not meant to be on the box but
[laughs]
56
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,760
certainly looked and looked quite different.-
57
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,920
[Enda:] It sounds like that
some of your teachers at Heriot-Watt
58
00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:00,960
actually inspired you to-
to do what you do today.
59
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,280
Were there any people in particular,
60
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,000
or was it just the whole sort
of ethos and environment?-
61
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,600
[Sean:] I mean, there were several-
several lecturers,
62
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,600
Hunter Cairns
taught us on Architectural Technology,
63
00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,840
as did David McKenzie, who also taught us
about building acoustics
64
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,120
and noise and vibration in buildings,
and both had been involved
65
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,120
in the development of new products
for the construction sector.
66
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,400
So that in itself, their background,
their knowledge, how much they shared
67
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,400
with us about their journeys
with some of the products,
68
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,040
and where they were then being used,
and also some of the testing
69
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:33,440
and development they did.
70
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,160
And I think that was, a trigger point
for me to get interested
71
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,120
in research and development and R&D.-
72
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,120
[Enda:] So, within your sort of wider
family and social group,
73
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,360
was it unusual to go into academia
or into what you do or-
74
00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,160
was that quite- quite normal or, you know?
Essentially did you stand out,
75
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,320
or was this a sort of a predestined
pathway for you?-
76
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,200
[Sean:] Definitely wasn't predestined.
77
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,240
Certainly, I was one of the first or second
in my kind of family generation,
78
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,000
if you look across my aunts and uncles,
79
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,800
of- of my cousins, of people
who went to university,
80
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,000
and the best advice I had
was that nothing is set in stone.
81
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,240
And I always carried that thinking,
you will change your mind on things,
82
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,320
you might change the career path
and I think I've changed mine 2 or 3
83
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,080
over the period.
84
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,000
But everything has an inflection point
when it comes back.
85
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:24,920
When you think:
86
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,840
Ah! I remember that particular moment when-
when something changed that made
87
00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:31,200
you think about that's a different career
path.-
88
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,880
[Enda:] And so what was your route into academia
and becoming a university professor?-
89
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,360
[Sean:] Well, initially I came through,
I would say probably the standard route.
90
00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,120
I started my PhD.
91
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,680
The PhD went part time
when the mathematical models
92
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,200
we were looking at to predict noise
and vibration in buildings,
93
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,440
those mathematical models
we could take to any structure,
94
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,240
all we could change
was the material properties,
95
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,040
but the actual noise and vibration,
the waveform,
96
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,080
etcetera, the frequencies, etcetera,
where things occur.
97
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,880
We can change that
with a mathematical model.
98
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:04,560
And so that was very attractive
99
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,800
to the Ministry of Defence
and the Defence Research Agency.
100
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,040
They really liked our complex models.
101
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,920
And so I started a research fellowship,
102
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working for DERA, the Defence Evaluation
Research Agency for three years
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to predict, vibration in complex
structures for helicopters and aircraft.
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I was very fortunate.
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We had a tremendous mentor
from the Defence Research Agency.
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Sadly, he's passed away now.
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But many people might have seen James Bond
and know Q the inventor
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and of course, Ian Fleming,
the writer of Bond based
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so many of Q's attributes
on what we call SSOs,
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who are the Senior Scientific Officers
of the Defence Research Agency.
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And in fact,
there are six Senior Scientific Officers,
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and I worked
for one of the Senior Scientific Officers.
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So if someone had told me as a young boy
watching James Bond, that later in life
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I'd be working for the equivalent of Q,
I think I would have burst out laughing [laughs]
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So I came through that path, finished the PhD,
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finished the research fellowship contract,
and then had the chance to go overseas.
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So I went to work partly in Canada
for the Canadian government.
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The construction research laboratories.
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And then I spent 18 months in Italy
working for the Italian government
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in Turin and Torino,
which was a wonderful opportunity.
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And then following that,
I went to work, for the German government
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Research Laboratories in Braunschweig
at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt,
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which is the the state Government Science
and Physics Metrology Center.
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I've been in all the projects
I've been involved with,
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whether it was Canada, Italy, Germany,
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my work when I came back to Scotland,
where I- where I joined
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Rob McKenzie Partnership, it
absolutely influences everything I do.
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And one of the exciting things is
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you see the challenges that the industry
has in construction and infrastructure.
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You see the pressures
they're under for material resources
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to do things better,
to improve circular economy.
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We use circular economy today
very much as a as a standard term.
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It wasn't a term used by the industry
many years ago.
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It was just about waste reduction
and trying to reuse the optimum materials
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we had and in many cases reuse buildings
through conversions and change of use.
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And I remember
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one of the first big conversions
I was on was an old church building,
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and an old convent, and it was amazing
converting that into apartments,
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and working with the architects
and designers.
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I've had the great fortune
to work with great research colleagues,
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and we've developed five patents,
and we have 17 patented
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products in the market,
which are manufactured in the UK
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and sold and owned
also by multinationals.-
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[Enda:] What does your field,
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which broadly we could describe as future
infrastructure, what does that encompass?
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How would you explain that
to a non-expert?-
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[Sean:] Well, infrastructure in the round
is almost everything around us from,
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from the physical manmade elements
of transport, buildings and roads, etc.,
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through to power lines and infrastructure
that supports our energy infrastructure,
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but also looking at some of the natural
infrastructure,
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for example, use of forests
and how we can bind soils and reduce,
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you know, for example, slippage
in embankments or hillsides, etc.,
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right through to marine preservation
and coastal protection and also
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specifically and more importantly,
addressing climate change.
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So the actual role
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within infrastructure is-
is multifaceted and that's the perfect reason
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why it should be based
in the Edinburgh Futures Institute.-
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[Enda:] I was fascinated
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reading about you,
the work that you did on medical acoustics
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and preterm infants,
which I know was at an earlier stage in your career.
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Could you tell us a little bit about that?
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It seems a very practical case of where
high level research informs
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actually improving people's
lives on a day to day basis?-
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[Sean:] Yeah, it was a really interesting piece of work.
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Going back a wee while.
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This is when I was in an acoustics
research laboratory at Heriot-Watt.
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We had a- we have what's known
as anechoic chambers and anechoic chambers
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is where no sound or vibration
can enter or exit these test facilities.
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So it's a great way to measure directly
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how sound travels
from one source to another.
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And we had a visit from
a series of teachers who
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were teaching various projects
that the university had been linked to.
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We thought it'd be nice to bring the
teachers and and show them the facilities.
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And they walked into the anechoic chamber,
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and two of the teachers immediately
felt unwell and had to leave.
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And both teachers, we subsequently
found, had a hearing deficit.
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Two weeks later we had
a visit from schoolchildren
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who were profoundly deaf.
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And when they went into the anechoic chamber,
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all of them immediately felt unwell.
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It was almost as if we'd taken away
any natural stimulus that was around them.
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And we jump forward about 4 or 5 years.
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And I'm now working in Italy.
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And, there had been discussions of how,
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we'd had a visit from,
to a colleague of mine, visits
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from the medical experts in Turin
and also from Rome,
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who were looking at the opportunities of
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when the foetus is in utero, in the womb,
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the opportunity and the importance
of the mother's voice and voices which penetrate it.
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They had seen and had been reported that there was
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better ventilation, better-
better receptacle
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to this kind of stimulus,
this natural stimulus of frequencies
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and that very same day,
there was an article about what they call
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‘La Mort Bleue’
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which is, also described as a SIDs
or Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
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And the issues around children
who these young-
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sorry, infants
who are generally 3 to 4 months old,
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who commonly have issues
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of influenza B, for example,
type of flu, or other issues,
200
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when- when they have cot death
or suffer from that terrible tragedy.
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And that very day
I had the most horrendous cold.
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I was coming down with the flu
and my hearing was affected,
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and I reminded myself of the issues
of the deaf and the profoundly deaf
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going into the anechoic chamber, how we'd
stripped away any natural environment,
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and when you looked
at a lot of the guidance
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for infants to avoid-
to parents to avoid pre-term deaths
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such as sudden infant death syndrome,
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then the issues around
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audibility, hearing, synapsis, etc.
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and, things like,
you know, don't, you know, cover up
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with lots of materials,
you know, blankets and pillows.
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These are highly absorptive.
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And that started me
thinking is that, you know,
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eighth cranial nerve, is the auditory
nerve more important than we think?
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And we often hear about people
saying that when someone's
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in their last phase of life,
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they may not see you,
but the likelihood is they will hear you.
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And therefore, is it one of the last,
parts of our primary system to shut down?
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And we know it's linked to the thalamus
and the hypothalamus,
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and that controls our natural body
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mechanisms such as breathing, etc.
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So, I raced home, and went home with,
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several books and papers
and hid under the covers
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as I recovered from the flu myself
and read back to back all these papers,
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and on the Monday morning
came back in and met my colleague
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who had met with the medical experts,
and I said to him, I need you to sit down.
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And we drew up on the whiteboard
and I showed them this pathway of how auditory sound
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could influence various things
and cardiorespiratory function,
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and actually it could be more important
than we thought.
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And following that,
we then contacted researchers in New Zealand,
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a wonderful researcher called Malcolm
Stewart, who at that time was in USA.
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And when we sent him
our kind of concept theory,
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he was delighted
because he had worked in a similar area.
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And we had synergy.
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And so we then read about 400 papers
and then summarised that.
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And then the paper was published
in the journal,
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International Journal of Prenatal
and Neonatal Medicine.
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One key bit of advice was,
and this was very important, was
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that it was important for
we felt for the infant
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to be sleeping in the same room,
not the same bed, but the same room
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as the parents,
because there's a natural stimulus
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when the parents are in the same room,
their breathing and other sounds.
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And obviously all the advice
about the position of the baby, etc.
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you know, the Back to Sleep campaign,
all our areas agreed with that.
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Because if you're not back to-
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on your back to sleep,
if you're on your side or your front,
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you will attenuate the auditory
nerve’s function, etc.
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and the blood flow.
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And so we’d recommended that.
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And so shortly after that
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there was a major international study
that then followed that up.
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And then the advice came from that
which is printed in all the
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sort of, newborn leaflets for parents.
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It's strongly advised that the infant
for the first six months
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sleeps in the same room, not the same bed,
so the cot can be near the bed.
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And, that's been advice ever since.
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So I think we were part of,
let's see, a series of people at that time
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who were very focused
on that area and our-
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I wouldn't say we led it, but I would say
the fact that the press coverage
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we got from both the BBC
and international newspapers,
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when the journal got published
and our article,
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drew a lot of attention to the area
and that if anything, I'm delighted with.-
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[Enda:] Could you tell us a little bit more
about how your research is informed?
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Sound insulation in domestic homes
and in the UK and internationally?
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Could you tell us a little bit about it?-
[Sean:] Sure. Delighted to.
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So when I was doing the PhD,
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looking at sound and vibration
in buildings and structures.
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That is all part and parcel
of looking at the overall
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sound insulation
which you have between housing.
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So this is what we call attached housing,
like terraced or semi-detached
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or flatted or apartment type buildings.
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And there's some key
regulations and standards.
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Now, those regulations and standards
do vary between countries.
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But nevertheless they're important
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because as a quality of life aspect
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interruption to sleep or other things through,
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you know, unwanted noise or unwanted
sound, such as noise is a real issue,
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particularly for young children
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and also for adults,
because it interrupts your sleep patterns.
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And what happened was, from the work
we were doing, the-
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the English or UK government-
the English government
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were changing their building regulations.
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And at that time they had, proposed
a brand new criteria
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for how you measure sound insulation.
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Quite different to anything-
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no one else in the world
was using at that time.
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And they’d sort of almost taken
a different standard
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for a completely different aspect
and brought that in.
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And the house building industry
at the time were quite concerned that
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how were they going to address this
new criteria?
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How do you meet this new sound insulation
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and how do you design for it?
And how do you build the walls and floors
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that divide all these housing and apartment
units to meet the new criteria?
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And we were very fortunate.
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And this is where data is key.
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We were sitting at the time in our
university and our research facility,
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and also with the Robin McKenzie Partnership
on a lot of field test data.
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And so we proposed it would may be useful
to look at an alternative approach,
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which is where you can actually design
in enhanced sound insulation.
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So you build well beyond the standard.
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And you're not going to have to test-
do that test of compliance.
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And that was the big issue
the industry was facing in England, Wales.
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How do you test and comply
if there's not enough testers?
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And if you're actually building
very similar archetype
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type approaches in new build of housing
and the type of construction,
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how could you in fact standardise that?
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And so we won the contract to investigate
and develop that.
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The- the government gave the industry
a 12 months to deliver alternatives.
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We told the industry, statistically,
you need to test every wall and floor,
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different construction- different,
you know, houses, but the same design
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30 times to have statistical significance.
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They loved us for that one.
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And then we proposed a series of
constructions for them to build and test.
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And it was to the Home
Builders Federation.
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And that was all the major and medium
size housebuilders
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across England and Wales.
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They absolutely rallied to the for-
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We assembled five working groups, 119
committee members.
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We issued the designs within six weeks
of being appointed on the project,
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and they built for us 1400 brand new homes
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with the designs in six and a half months
all tested.
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And again thanks to building control,
the local authorities, the warranty providers
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because they had to accept our
recommendations for these new designs.
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And we were delighted to see the
government then and adopt that approach.
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And the industry, we designed it
into a handbook and published it,
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and the government then decided
instead of just a one off handbook,
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let's keep this live.
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Let's allow new innovation to come forward.
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So an organisation was set up
called Robust Details and,
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I was initially director of that
to get it going.
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And I rejoined the company back in 2017.
332
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And it's- it's a wonderful opportunity
how you could create a modal shift
333
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,800
for the whole sector, supporting evidence
underpinning data, standardised approach.
334
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,760
And, over 1.6 million homes
have now been built with those designs.-
335
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,120
[Enda:] Have have our attitudes toward,
what you might call
336
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,520
noise being seen as a disturbance,
337
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,600
have they changed over time?-
338
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:38,360
[Sean:] I think they have.
339
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,360
I think partly
maybe because of the source of noise.
340
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,720
If you go back to the ‘90s, in the 1990s,
341
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,440
the main driver behind England and Wales
changing their building regulations
342
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,880
and improving sound insulation levels
was because of the number of complaints
343
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,520
went up fourfold in the domestic sector,
not commercial, not environmental noise.
344
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,760
It was the housing sector.
345
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,240
So many people were listening to bass
music, you know, garage, rave, etc.
346
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,200
and that probably really sort of
infused the government to say
347
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,720
we need to address this.
348
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,680
Now we cannot do it
retrospectively in existing stock.
349
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,200
It's not a health and safety-
It's not a structural issue.
350
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,520
But we can do it for new build.
351
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,520
And that's why
when they designed this new criteria
352
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,720
that they brought in- they made a big,
big focus on lifting the requirements
353
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,160
of the minimum amount of insulation
you need at low frequencies,
354
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,280
which we had to design to meet.-
355
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,040
[Enda:] In the past 15 years or so,
356
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440
you've very much concentrated
on sustainable construction.
357
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,160
What are the challenges,
that we face in our efforts
358
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,600
to achieve net zero emissions?-
359
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,560
[Sean:] As we look to the future,
360
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,960
one of the issues
is that the global population will rise
361
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,400
from about 8 billion
to about 11.3 billion by the year 2100.
362
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,480
That's going to place
huge, huge resources-
363
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,960
pressures on materials, land
availability, etc.
364
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,760
but particularly on materials.
365
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520
And so to meet that demand
we will need
366
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,400
to build, over the next
75 years, 1.2 billion homes.
367
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,160
Now, in addition
to that, people are also living longer,
368
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,080
which is wonderful,
you know, fantastic health facilities.
369
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,960
And- and as more and more countries
improve their
370
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,600
approach to health and solutions
that they have,
371
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,600
so more people around
the world will live longer, too.
372
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,920
And what that does do, though, is that
then as more people live longer,
373
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,760
it reduces the supply of housing
coming back onto the market
374
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,480
and also sadly with divorce
and other things.
375
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,160
And so you need new households to support.
376
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,680
And this puts huge household pressure.
377
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,960
So we need another 800
million homes over the next 75 years.
378
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,000
If this trend continues globally,
that's 2 billion homes.
379
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,480
And the pull on material resources around
the world will just be huge
380
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,040
if it's not already.
381
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,440
So it's incredibly important
we do things as sustainably as we can.
382
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,240
We reutilise materials, we reutilise-
383
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,680
we look at design, from the very first thing
that we do right from the design stage,
384
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,680
how do we maximise that delivery
but reduce the effect of footprint
385
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,440
of materials and resource?
And net zero, which is a separate
386
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,720
but almost equal challenge,
has had various,
387
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,800
let's say, journeys
of different play in different countries.
388
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,600
The UK, we- we for example,
in construction, in housing,
389
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,360
we devolve the targets effectively
that we're looking at.
390
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,600
Specifically the Scottish Government
has its own targets,
391
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,640
but nevertheless
it will still wrap into the UK targets.
392
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,640
So the Scottish targets are 2045
for net zero
393
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,760
UK targets, most of European targets
are 2050.
394
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:49,160
And whilst across the UK, we have reduced
overall emissions by about 53%
395
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,560
since the 1990 levels to where we are now
today in 2024.
396
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960
We're in that tough period where we've not
really reduced effectively for housing.
397
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,520
We've not reduced effectively
for agriculture.
398
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,280
And our transport emissions
make up 25% of the emissions
399
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,280
that we currently have,
and that's another key target.
400
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,200
So the amount of work and graft
to do over this
401
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200
next 20 to 25 years is significant.
402
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,920
And we're in,
I would say the difficult stage
403
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,560
because we have done some of the easy bits.
404
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,560
We've done some of that low hanging fruit
and we really, really need to up the game
405
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,920
and accelerate as quickly
as we can.
406
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,080
And finally, I would say
it's not all about data and technologies.
407
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,240
We need to take society with us.
408
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,200
I mean, for example, two years ago,
if you wanted to do some sort of
409
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,840
green measures on your home,
there are about 7 or 8 different types
410
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,440
of funding stream and different
funding aspects from governments
411
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,080
depending on what you were looking at,
and that was very complex for people.
412
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560
So I think we need to streamline it,
simplify it.
413
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,400
Just looking at Edinburgh and Glasgow
alone. Just take- just the housing,
414
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,560
forget transport, anything else
but just to retrofit where we are.
415
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,440
That's a 35 billion pound market over
the next 20 years.
416
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,600
Scotland needs to retrofit
roughly about 135,000 homes per year.
417
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,560
England needs to retrofit
approximately 900,000 homes per year,
418
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,080
and Europe needs to retrofit, every year
till 2050,
419
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,120
11 million homes per year.-
420
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,200
[Enda:] I think this takes us to your role within the Futures Institute,
421
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,000
as director of the Center for Future Infrastructure.
What does the centre do?-
422
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,160
[Sean:] Well, the centre really acts as a-
as a bridge between many of the aspects
423
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160
happening in engineering
across all areas of engineering,
424
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200
and also within the college of Science
and Engineering and linking
425
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,520
right across the university.
426
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,520
So very much the EFI,
the Edinburgh Futures Institute model,
427
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,880
the Centre for Future Infrastructure
by being based there.
428
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,600
Its purpose is to look and solve
and work with interdisciplinary teams.
429
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,080
So that's working with architecture.
430
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Could be the law school,
it could be geosciences,
431
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240
it could be social sciences or humanities,
it could be the business school.
432
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,240
So the purpose of the centre
433
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,640
is not to run a- get lots
and lots of academic research staff.
434
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,360
The purpose is to link across
who are our experts, where are they
435
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,680
in the different schools and research
institutes across the university.
436
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,640
where we need them to come together
and be the interdisciplinary team?
437
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,720
I mean, just some examples of projects
we've worked with geosciences
438
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,160
and architecture,
looking at projects around Dubai.
439
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,800
Similarly,
we've worked with similar diverse schools
440
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960
around projects
looking at sustainability in Galapagos.
441
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520
We've had projects recently
in South Africa-
442
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,920
sorry, South America, where they're looking
at issues around new infrastructure
443
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,800
for dams and also the issue
around the legal aspects for that.
444
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,200
So it's- it's quite a diverse
but a wonderful area
445
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,240
to be in because infrastructure touches
so many areas.
446
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,640
It's almost a keystone.
447
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,680
We take so much of it for granted,
but nevertheless
448
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,280
we use it day in and day out
and it plays such a critical role.
449
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,800
So that's that's the purpose of CFI to go
after some of these key challenges
450
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,440
around climate change and
infrastructure, particularly resilience.
451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400
But also to to bring
all these different partners together,
452
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520
all these diverse and wonderful
academic colleagues that we have
453
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,040
at the University of Edinburgh
454
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,480
and also work
with industry, public sector,
455
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,880
whether it's advising on future
skills pathways,
456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,880
which we've been doing for the region,
and also for the UK,
457
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,560
where it's looking at the opportunities
around new skills
458
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,920
that will be needed for the future,
the new technologies which are coming.
459
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,200
So we're assessing some world
firsts and new heating systems
460
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000
that are coming to market,
which is very exciting, but also listening
461
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,520
to the societal needs
462
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,560
and that sort of, touchstone of
where is society going?
463
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680
Are the on side with us,
with where we're trying to get to
464
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,560
what could make it easier,
and how do we infuse them to stay with us?
465
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,360
And when people were saving, many years
ago and planning for their pension,
466
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,000
they probably hadn't planned
467
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,240
that they might have to spend 15
or 20,000 pounds retrofitting their home
468
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,240
and an additional,
maybe 20 or 25 thousands over
469
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,240
and above what they were expecting to pay
for an electric vehicle,
470
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,520
in addition to installing
electric charging points, etc..
471
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,000
So it's a new dynamic.
472
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,800
It's complex.
473
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,840
It weighs heavily on some people's
shoulders how they might afford that.
474
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,400
And so we need to make sure
that we are 1) simplifying that process,
475
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,840
innovating to reduce the costs
476
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040
and improving how people will interact
with that and take it forward.-
477
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,520
[Enda:] Where do you see
political leadership featuring?-
478
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,840
[Sean:] This is something because it's 2045
or 2050 deadlines for net zero,
479
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,200
and this is not something
that's a 4 or 5 year political cycle.
480
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,880
This is something you invest in now for
the future, and none more so than skills.
481
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,200
We need a kind of joined up approach
across government in construction.
482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,680
And that has perhaps been lacking a bit.
483
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,720
I saw many years ago a very good model.
484
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,720
This is about, oh, 15, 16 years ago.
485
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000
I won't say where if that's okay,
but it was a government department we were working with,
486
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,320
where they had effectively
487
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120
a very, very senior
civil servant who led construction.
488
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,360
And whilst the sector was,
you know, crisscrossing 6 or 7
489
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,400
ministerial portfolios,
490
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,960
he linked everything together
and tried to make sure
491
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560
there was an association
or link with them.
492
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,840
When he left, he wasn't replaced.
493
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,280
And suddenly that- there was a loss.
494
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,200
There was no construction minister either.
495
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,440
So there was no one to drive things forward.
496
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,680
And we've seen both in the 2013 review,
for example, of the review-
497
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,240
the review of procurement
in construction, they recommended
498
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,960
having a Construction Czar
or a Minister for Construction.
499
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280
And I did a review
for the new housing skills
500
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800
for future new housing
and one of the 40 recommendations
501
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,400
there was to have, we need a Construction
Minister or a Senior Construction Czar
502
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840
who’s in the civil service
because it's so important.
503
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,160
To get to net zero construction and
infrastructure is absolutely paramount,
504
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,760
and you can't have so many things
crisscrossing
505
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,000
6 or 7 government agencies
with no connected tie up-
506
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000
[Enda:] You were very recently
awarded a large grant from UK Research
507
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,080
and Innovation,
and congratulations on that
508
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,120
for a new Centre
for Net Zero High Density Building.
509
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,640
How do you think this funding
510
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,640
will transform practices
within the construction industry?-
511
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600
[Sean:] We- we're in some pretty difficult times
when you're looking at net zero.
512
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,320
The reason that we looked
at the high density buildings is
513
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,120
let's just take Edinburgh and Glasgow.
514
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:45,000
They are 68% and 70% flats,
so the highest proportion of flatted
515
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,080
or apartment dwellings in the UK.
London is about 52%.
516
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,320
The UK average is 20%.
517
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,160
And Scotland
actually has a higher average, about 38%.
518
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,200
But nevertheless, the complexities
of dense streetscapes, different types
519
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,600
of archetypes of buildings going back
400 years, stone developments, etc.
520
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,440
traditional, historic and listed,
521
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,080
plus the complexity of bringing in perhaps
future district community heating,
522
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,680
testing new technologies, the skills
523
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,200
and the data required for that, and also
that occupant interaction behaviour.
524
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,200
That was the foundation
of setting up the centre.
525
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,200
So we could have multiple workstreams
that were talking to each other,
526
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640
new heating technologies, new materials,
green approaches,
527
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640
archetypes, district community
heating, sensors, etc., etc.
528
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,160
and skills.
529
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,840
And for the sector itself,
the sector is thriving.
530
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,000
It is innovating where it can.
531
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,040
It's testing and developing
and they need support.
532
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,000
And that is the role of the centre.
533
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,080
The centre will support the industry,
both public sector, private, commercial.
534
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,680
It goes beyond just housing.
535
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760
It's going to look at non-domestic
as well.
536
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,920
And it will also, as we're
currently doing, working with new housing.
537
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,000
For example,
538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,920
the Edinburgh home demonstrator down
at Granton is one of the sort of,
539
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120
real pushers of the envelope of where
we're going with net zero for housing.
540
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,240
And it’s great to be involved with that.
541
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
And, in the future, that could be a,
you know,
542
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,800
a major test bed for so many of the things
that are to come.
543
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,760
But we think it's very important
having such wonderful partners.
544
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,360
So it's- Edinburgh's leading it
with Glasgow University,
545
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Strathclyde University,
Napier University, West of Scotland.
546
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,680
And we're working with the-
the industry’s forerunner in innovation
547
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120
and development which is known as ‘BEST’:
Built Environment Smart Transformation.
548
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,200
We have 58 partners.
549
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,800
That's given me a few grey hairs,
drawing them together.
550
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,680
From public, government, social housing,
industry, manufacturers, etc..
551
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,480
And I think collectively that four year project,
all being well,
552
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,280
every few months will be pumping out
reports, knowledge exchange and workshops
553
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,240
to accelerate that delivery of net zero
for this really important area,
554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,240
which is high density
buildings and cities.-
555
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,160
[Enda:] We're here in the Edinburgh
Futures Institute.
556
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,160
What sort of future do you envisage
given your expertise?-
557
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,720
[Sean:] Sometimes people ask me
‘what gives you sleepless nights?’
558
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,280
and I'd say the whole issue around
building in the resilience
559
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,040
we need for our infrastructure
with climate change.
560
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,760
I think we've seen
with the recent tragic events in Valencia,
561
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,360
in Spain, Malaga,
Barcelona, Italy, with similar floods,
562
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,400
this- this terrible Storm Boris
this this summer
563
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,200
in Europe, which impacted seven countries.
564
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,520
And the scale of flooding and basically
our roads are turning into rivers.
565
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,040
They've become the conduit
for most of the flood waters now,
566
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,880
and the damage to people's lives
567
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,480
and property is so significant
and the intensity is increasing.
568
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200
So we've seen a huge increase
in the intensity
569
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,160
and also the number of storms
in terms of that intensity in Europe,
570
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,720
in America,
they classify as billion dollar events.
571
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,800
And back in about 2003,
they had 2 or 3 events.
572
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,960
In 2023,
they had 23 major billion dollar events
573
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,880
due to forest fires
or flooding and storms.
574
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760
We saw with Hurricane Helene,
575
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,720
in- in the USA,
the whole issue there of-
576
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040
absolutely everybody was right
to focus on storm surge,
577
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,840
the Florida Panhandle.
578
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,760
I think no one could quite foresee with
suddenly that slow movement of the storm
579
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,640
as it sat over the- the states
further to the north, like North Carolina,
580
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
the sheer scale of damage
that would ensue.
581
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,640
And then more recently with the other one,
with Hurricane Milton,
582
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,920
which crisscrossed
the panhandle of Florida.
583
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,800
And everybody did the right thing.
They got out of-
584
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,000
this is going to be the pathway.
585
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Okay, we'll get out of that pathway.
586
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,120
We'll move north or south.
587
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,240
But no one could have foresaw
we'd have 140 tornadoes
588
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120
to the south of the hurricane pathway,
where people thought they would be
589
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
more safe, but
in fact turned out to be more dangerous.-
590
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,360
[Enda:] Thank you very much for coming in
to tell us about your fascinating work.-
591
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,360
[Sean:] Thank thanks very much, Enda.
592
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,760
[Electronic beat]
