00:00
There's lead generation. You can do lead generation, but more often than not, we want to create demand for our products, right? Our demand for our services. We want people to want to work with us. A lead is just kind of a passive sort of concept. When you're creating demand, it's about putting a fire in someone's mind about opportunities and possibilities.
00:21
Hey there. Welcome to the freelance cake podcast. I'm your host, Austin L. Church, founder of the Freelance Cake community. The goal of this show is to help full-time committed freelancers get better leverage. As the sworn enemy of busyness and burnout, I have no desire whatsoever to see you work harder. So I reveal the specific beliefs, principles, and practices you can use right away to make the freelance game more profitable and satisfying. So chill out, listen in because the best is yet to come.
01:00
Welcome to another episode of the Freelance Cake Podcast. If you've been freelancing for a while, you've probably had the rug pulled out from underneath you at least once. That can look like losing a client, having a particularly lean month, or maybe even a job that ends sooner than you expected. My guest today, Josh Cantrell, built his entire self-employment career out of these moments. What could have been a setback for Josh became the starting line. Josh is now a messaging and positioning strategist who works primarily with B2B companies that sell complex products or services. The kind of businesses that know they need better marketing but aren't always sure where to start.
01:49
Josh and I talk about his evolution from doing anything and everything to specializing in strategy positioning and high leverage messaging. There are several big themes in this conversation and one of them is frameworks. Specifically why having a framework changes how clients perceive you, how it builds your confidence, and how it allows you to deliver higher value outcomes instead of just deliverables. If you work with businesses that want marketing results but haven't nailed their messaging yet, you'll appreciate this discussion with Josh, especially why clarity comes before amplification and how teaching clients what to believe can be just as important as writing the words for them. If you're thinking about specializing or about strengthening your messaging or raising your standards or building a referral engine instead of just relying on hope marketing, this episode is for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Josh Cantrell.
02:55
I am here with my friend, Josh Cantrell, and I can say friend because we've known each other a long time and because we see each other almost every day. We are in the same office.
03:07
Yep. You're my landlord.
03:09
Hey, don't go spreading that around. Josh, thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me. For people who know nothing about you, why don't we start with how long you have been self-employed?
03:27
Yeah, self-employed. Well, I was employed on January 1st, 2017. I was unemployed January 2nd, 2017. Yeah. So that is the day.
03:39
I've been there. It's not funny at all.
03:42
No, it's more funny now. It was less funny then. So yeah, walked into the office and it was a job I'd had for a little while. Felt like it was like, man, this is kind of the next step up in my career. Pretty soon felt like, man, this isn't a place I think I want to be long-term. Didn't end up working out on both sides. And so we parted ways that January 2nd, 2017. And from then just kind of kickstarted my freelance journey. I remember the first conversation I had after I was unemployed with a friend, he said, huh, so that means you're on the market. Like I was like, yeah, I guess so. Uh, he's like, you want to do some work for our company? And, um, I was like, maybe I do, sure, what do you want? You know, I need to make some money. Let's do it. And so, um, that was kind of the first inkling of maybe, maybe I could make a business out of my skill, you know, out of the things that I know and how I think.
04:42
I didn't have a whole lot of direction at that point, but it was the first time I was like, huh, maybe I don't have to work in house. Maybe I don't have to go work for an agency. Maybe I could do my own thing. And it just slowly evolved over that year to where eventually I ended up making as much on my own, not just through the marketing business, but through the other side hustles that I had to kind of keep the family afloat. I made as much on my own as I had after this other job, which is the most money I'd ever made before. And then the next year, you know, just grew and grew from there.
05:12
Two things. One, come a little bit closer to the mic if you can. And then two, did you have kids at the time? What was your mindset like when you woke up on January 2nd?
05:29
Yeah. So I did have two kids. We have four now. And then later that year we had our third. So I was still kind of in the mix of, I know, yeah, it was, it was funny. So yeah, my mindset was pretty much, you know, I'm a Christian so I was like, all right, Lord, what's the path? You know, where do we go from here? How are you going to provide? How are you going to show up for us in this family that I know you care about? And so there was some anxiety along the way for sure, but that there was just a piece that like, this is going to be okay. You know, we're going to be fine. And also like, I will do whatever it takes. Like if I need to, you know, sell plasma three times a week or you know, if I need to not eat three days a week, like whatever, I mean, it'll work. But thankfully, I never got to that point, got all my plasma still and definitely didn't go without any meals. So, but yeah, it was the mindset was kind of, it could be a jarring scenario where you're like, man, I feel like I'm doing really good. I've got a lot of potential. I was pretty early in my career still. And then you lose your job and you're like, what do you do? Like how, what does this mean about me? I think a lot of that thought in that process or in that timeframe was like, does this mean I'm bad? And so does this mean I'm not good at what I do, you know, or was this just maybe not a good fit, you know? And I think, I think I had some things to learn, you know, definitely needed to learn and grow, but also just coming to the piece that's like, no, I've got some things that like, if I could channel them, put them in the right direction, this is going to be, I can create a much better scenario than this previous scenario. So it was the mindset. think the biggest change over time was mindset growth to, uh, yeah, just kind of shed like an uncomfortable situation. One that I didn't, you know, didn't feel fun. Wasn't enjoyable, a bad kind of work environment in many ways to like, can create something that I want to build. You know, I can create my own space in the world for the value I want to create. So that was a fun.
07:38
It definitely wasn't a quick fix, you know, but like every freelance are out there when they're first starting, there's so much. We like to call it imposter syndrome. Sometimes I think it's just a lack of, uh lack of clarity, you know, and to some degree, a lack of competence where you're seeing a gap between what I need to do and where I am. And so over that, over that year or two, first couple of years, get some reps under your belt about how to send proposals, how to package things, how to price stuff, being able to reference back to previous clients like that competence builds and the confidence comes as a result of that. So, yeah, so that was kind of my mindset at the time and how it evolved a little bit.
08:22
So that was 2017. We are recording this conversation in 2026. Has your business gone through multiple iterations over the years or are you still doing pretty much the same things you were doing back in 2017?
08:43
Yeah, well in early 2017 I was flipping the contents of storage units that I bought, my own storage wars scenario which not fun. Yeah, I did. I did anything. I started a YouTube or not a YouTube eBay store. I was DJing like two to three weddings a weekend. That was another side hustle left over from my college years. And then a big transition was when it was like, I'm not going to DJ any weddings anymore. And I am canceling this eBay store. That's when I felt like I'd really made it as a freelancer. It's like, I'm done. That was probably early the next year, 2018. And then I totally forgot your question. What was it?
09:30
Well, I'll get back to that question. Let me ask this one instead. Did you have a DJ name?
09:37
No, we were kind of classy. I was in the classy DJ category where it was just Josh. I was a master of ceremonies and also like lead dance for party guy. But in college, you know, I might've been known as Jay wiki flavor. So you can, you can keep that Jay.
09:55
I like master of ceremonies. I think you should rebrand your agency now as Master of ceremonies. The question was as your business gone through multiple iterations Yes, since 2017. Yeah, can you explain what some of them are or were if so?
10:17
Sure. So early on it was anything and everything you can get you know, just like a lot of folks It's like yeah, I can do that. I can figure that out um toward the end of 2017 I went through the story brand process and realized like, I want to include this into my business. So I got certified in that. That framework was the first big jump, I think, um in how I deliver loosely copywriting. Like copywriting and messaging was kind of like what I was doing, what I felt like I wanted to do. That first year, two, three years though, I was doing paid ads, kind of a general service, marketing agency for small businesses. And so I was running ads, I was building websites, we were sending emails, we were doing all sorts of stuff. Graphic design, geez, I was actually designing stuff too then, not a good idea. But, late 2017 got certified in the StoryBrain process and that gave some clarity and focus around, huh, there's, if I could package up some real messaging specific offers and content specific packages for people, like I could maybe trim away the rest of this stuff. 2020 is the year that really where that kind of fully came to fruition. Some people make decisions quickly. I make them very slowly apparently. So two, three years later, 2020, started, I cut off all the general service marketing stuff. I even stopped building websites and I was just messaging and positioning and just copying content packages.
11:53
That was helpful for a time. I have found that over the years I have lost opportunities that I would otherwise have probably gotten if I could have said, hey, we've got someone for that. Like we can handle that. Let me help you with that. And not everybody needs to do that, but I have felt like this is the right time to, past year or so has been the right time to bring in more intentionally like, hey, let me pitch a package, moving more into less a full service agency and more just like a marketing strategist that can get you what you need and it starts with message messaging and then let's talk about the assets you need to build and will handle a lot we can handle a lot of that. The one other change that's probably happened in terms of the business has been tacking on for certain clients a fractional CMO type relationship where if it's a good fit, I don't lead with this, but if it's a good fit on the backend and they're like, Hey, how can we get your thoughts in our world more often? How can we make sure that the content we're putting out is, quote unquote, right, you know, and help us help the leadership team think about marketing implications and sales implications of what we're deciding. So those are fun relationships. I've got, uh, usually two to three of those at any given time. I actually just kind of pitched one this morning. So that's going to be fun too.
13:26
Let's go back just for a second to StoryBrand. What is that?
13:33
Yeah. So StoryBrand is a framework based on, I believe it's Joseph Campbell's Hero's journey which is a pretty academic look at what are the principles of story and StoryBrand has kind of commercialized that for small business, you know, any size business that needs to clarify something. And so it's a framework for taking the principles of story and applying them to your business content. So there's seven components of it. And it's not like the only thing you're ever going to say, but most of the time your messaging will come from one of these areas. Everything you say will tie in in some way to the story that your customers are living out. And that's kind of the key paradigm shift for a lot of people that goes through the process is that It's not our story as the business that we're trying to tell. It's our customer's story. And where do we fit in? How do we communicate about what we do in a way that makes the customer and makes the client the, for lack of a less cliche way of putting it, the hero. So they are the hero. And I think everybody knows this. I tend to think everybody gets that, but I just had a workshop a week or two ago, and I explained that principle and the CEO's like light bulb just went off above his head. You could see him and he was like, I have never heard that before. And I'm like, man, this is, this is crazy that people are still learning for the first time. And that's why stuff like this, your podcast and you know, our marketing as marketers is so helpful is like, man, there's just tons of people in the world and they need to hear this stuff. So, um, yeah.
15:16
I would say at least half the billboards I see the main message is from a company or brand saying in effect, we are awesome. Not saying we understand this problem that you have. So I think it's still unusual when people's storytelling, people's like a company's or brands storytelling and marketing is customer centric instead of like, or customer centered instead of self centered. So back to StoryBrand or more broadly back to certification, you saw, sounds like you saw this step change in your career when you got ahold of a framework that enabled you to deliver a higher value outcome or offer plus outcome. Is that accurate? Did I summarize that the right way?
16:25
100%. Yeah. So the StorybBrand Guide Certification Program, which I highly recommend oh in general for marketers, but it was one helpful for learning a framework that I can lean on in making decisions for my clients and explain my rationale. So that's what's the important, that's to some extent the importance of a framework in what we're doing. Even if you just make it up, like here's our framework, you at least have a reason. Like, oh, we're not gonna go that route because of this. Or I would push back on this a little bit because of this principle. And so that gives you some more weight rather than just thinking, the client thinking, oh, they're just winging it. I guess we're just paying for this person's expertise, which is sometimes very valuable. Like if I'm going to hire David C. Baker to come and instruct my agency, I'm not, I'm going to shut up and listen and just whatever his gut says, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go with, right? But if I am just getting started, having a framework to lean back on is super helpful for justifying decisions and for making decisions. But, and so, yeah, I would say that the guide certification program as a whole also just gave me some specific offers. Like here's a jumpstart to your thinking on what kind of offer you could put together to be valuable to someone. And I've gone through lots of iterations of that over the years and kind of made it my own. But yeah, I would say your assessment is right on.
17:58
You are 10 years in now. How has your mindset changed?
18:05
I think early on, it felt like the world was small and stingy. You know, like there's not a lot of money out there. My network isn't very big. I'm struggling. What I've realized is like the world is very big and there is plenty of money to go around. And so like you have a bad month and you think, all right, know, bad months now are like previously what would have been my best months, you know, my great months.
18:34
but so that funny.
18:35
It is funny. And, but yeah, there's just, there's tons of opportunity, abundance mindset, you know, that kind of idea. And when you lose a client, similar to losing the job, like it doesn't mean anything like score clients chase shiny objects. Sometimes they just want a new person to work with. Sometimes they're the problem and that's good. It's just the natural ebb and flow of relationships in this world. So ideally, yeah, you keep them forever. But part of the mindset has been there is always another client out there, you know, and you just got to go find them. So for one of my mindset, that's kind of the core of the mindset. There's a lot of opportunity out there and the world is not stingy. The world is, there's a lot of very generous people and there's a lot to go around. I would say another aspect of my mindset that's changed has been leveling up what my standards are. So I think it's Tony Robbins who says something like we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our standards. And so when I'm thinking about the money that I want to make during a month, at the end of the month, if I've already hit my standard, I'm kind of like, that comes in after this is great, you know? But if I'm not to the standard, I get uncomfortable and I start taking more action, you know? Like, the standard is this. And so part of the mindset change, I remember telling somebody, I was doing some coaching program, and they were like, are your goals at the end of this? I was like, man, I just want to be making 10K a month. Like, if I could make 10,000 a month, that would be like, oh man, I've made it. And he was like, no, wait, no, really.
20:32
That's cute. Yeah, that's cute. How many kids do you have?
20:37
Yeah, exactly. He was, he kind of chuckled a little bit. I think he was a little shocked. I was like, oh man, am I not ambitious enough? Like what, what, what should it be? He's like, all right, I'm not going to tell you 50K a month by next week, but let's at least double that. Okay. Just to get you thinking at a higher level. And so from then on, that's been my kind of my standard, like, my new standard is 20. And I'm not there yet, but I'm working toward it. And since then had many, many months above above 20, right? And so and now that's the new standard. That's like. So hopefully that idea makes sense of not just rising to the occasion, but like, what do you truly believe is possible and the minimum you're willing to accept? And so. You don't always hit it, but at least that's that's a little different than like shooting for the stars, you know, shoot for the moon. And if you miss your land among the stars, it's a little different from that. Right. It's like, no, I want to I'm going to hold myself to this level of execution and results.
21:41
Do you have standards for anything else? Across your life. I'm sure you do. yeah, specifically in your business.
21:54
Yeah, in the business, would say 20K is the standard. That's like anything below that is frustrating to me, you know, whereas before anything above that would have been like, holy smokes, you know, so the mindset change over time. Other, other standards in the business, I think are. One of the things that's really important to me is not just to do the work, but to make sure that my clients are, to the best of my ability, happy with the results, you know? And even if that means me going through like four rounds of revisions, it doesn't put, this is a line I have to walk carefully, but setting expectations and dealing with clients that have unrealistic expectations, that is a reality. And sometimes you just can't.
22:49
You just, no matter how good you are, nobody's going to make them happy because they don't even know what they want. know? So, um, but that has been, that's been a standard where it's like, this client is going to feel heard, seen, understood. I'm going to ask questions, um, that go beyond just like, what do I need to get, do my job? But what do I need to make sure that they feel like they are being, um, like someone has truly stepped inside their shoes and inside their scenario, you know, their business.
23:19
and is thinking on their behalf. um, uh other standards kind of like on a, practical level are like one to two ideal, like referral partner meetings a week. So I try to meet with one, one to two people every week that are not my ideal client, but an ideal, what I call an IRP, not an ICP, but an IRP ideal referral partner. And so these are the, instead of just going after clients every day,
23:48
uh... and clients every week i want i have a standard of these are the is the number of conversations i'm gonna have with people that can refer me business if i win one of them to my cause bring me more people passively and so that's been a really productive and fruitful uh... kind of standard or expectation on myself too is that something you came up with or is that something you found somewhere do you remember
24:15
Yeah, I went out back in the day. I got my start, kind of cut my teeth in marketing at a, IT company, a local IT company and the sales, was very direct sales driven and marketing was kind of like a, Hey, can you just make us look pretty and you know, manage events for us and stuff like that. And so, um, but I was a part of a lot of the, a lot part of a lot of the sales conversations and the key metric that they were concerned with was, um, first time appointments and
24:43
Centers of influence. So two metrics that they looked at was how many first time appointments did you set every week? They wanted three, like three is the minimum. If each salesperson can get three of those with a qualified opportunity, then the business will grow. Everything else comes down after that. The second one was this idea of centers of influence. Who are the people that know the people that we need to know? And can I treat them with the same level of kind of urgency and outreach?
25:13
you know, can I have a process about getting around those folks similar to that, that we do to sales and sales prospects. So that's kind of where it came from, um, was just seeing how lucrative a network of people that just know about what you do and are keeping their ear out and having, having relationships. And so for me, the past probably three months, three to four months has been a realization that I,
25:42
I think as freelancers, it's pretty easy to get isolated where you're just doing your own thing. You're in your own world. Um, but it's funny, almost every time I talk with another marketer that even does something pretty similar to what I do, they're like, you know what? I had this conversation with somebody. I think you need to talk to them. Like, it's not a good fit for me. And I'm be like, huh, okay, interesting. Let's do it. So seeing that happen more and more often was like, Oh, I need to
26:11
Prioritize this, you know, I need to make sure that I need to do this on purpose. So Can you walk me through what that process looks like for you how you start the conversation? Any questions you might ask the first time you talk to people Yeah, do you follow up? How do you keep in touch and stay top of mind? Yeah, yeah, sure totally. um a lot of times lately this has been starting with
26:41
DMs. So LinkedIn DMs or like communities that I'm a part of, the StoryBrand community is one of them too. um So this will kind of tie into my content strategy too. So let's say you post something on LinkedIn, you get a first, second or third degree connection that engages or comments in some way. Most people just stop right there and maybe reply to the comment. But my strategy lately has been, I'm going to reach out to every single person on this list that either I don't know,
27:11
or I'm not connected to, em or maybe we've talked but we haven't talked in a while and turn that into a human conversation. So let's see here. mean on Zoom, if you can? Yeah, yeah, if I can. If nothing else. Video call, not just like a DM thread. Well, first it's always a DM, you know, we're just chatting. And one of my favorite questions is like, hey, are you just going after CPAs? It might be on their profile.
27:39
Or are you just going after it companies or are just, who are you trying to reach? Ask them a question about themselves to open up the conversation. It's kind of in the vein of business. And then, um, and then if it seems like someone that might be a good referral partner for me and vice versa, I'll just say, Hey, let me know if you're up for a chat sometime. I'd love to get to know more about what you do to see if there's a way we can help each other. Something very similar to that. Um, and it's just surprising how often people are open to it. So, um, and so we'll hop on that call.
28:09
And my entire goal during that call is to get to know them, not to pitch myself, not to do anything. I just want to have a conversation where um at the end of the conversation, even if I've never said anything about myself, they feel like, oh man, he didn't talk at all. man, I need to go, I need to ask him about himself. And so rather than just like pitching me,
28:33
It's almost like, Hey, I'm gonna ask you about your yourself until you think, man, this is inappropriate. I'm going to start talking about you. then there's a genuine need to reciprocate. Yeah. What about you, Josh? What do you do? Yeah. And it's not like a ploy. think that's genuinely how I try to show up in the world too. It's just, I want to know about you and maybe there's a way that you can help me, but I'm not going to leave with that. So I'm thinking on those calls, like, who can I connect this person to? Who do they need? Uh, is there a book or a podcast or just something that I can
29:02
that I can use to kind of point them, help them on their journey in some way. Um, and so typically at the end of those calls, it's either like, Hey, let's do this again. Or very, I like this week. I have one that was very obviously not just not going to be a good long-term relationship. You know what I mean? Well, say more about that. don't want you to out anybody, but what made you realize I don't need to do this with this person again? Yeah.
29:32
uh I was 20 minutes into the conversation. I still didn't understand what he did like or what he was trying to get out of a Get out of our relationship. You know what I mean? It was just very a very very cool Guy like a good business. I mean not necessarily like super profitable at the time but I'm like man. There's a place for you in the market. I would love to see you
29:58
I see you thrive. I was just honestly so confused. left that conversation and I'm, I'm the guy that takes confusing things and tries to make them simple. So they're easier to sell. That's my business, but I still didn't get, didn't get it. So it was one of those, I was like, you know, he's starting out a little bit earlier in his career. Um, and I wasn't, it just didn't feel like a good long-term fit. Great guy. We'll probably still talk to him in some way, but it wasn't one of those where you just click with someone and you're like, Oh,
30:28
you're an asset to me and I'm an asset to you. Let's, let's figure out how to be tighter, you know? I think it's important to emphasize, Hey, it's okay to give yourself permission to not keep in touch. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Especially if you're going to do this on any, at any scale, like I'm trying to do now, um, that a lot, I want to have like a very broad net for that initial meeting. Like who I take kind of an initial 30 minute call with at some point, but
30:57
a pretty tight group of people that I have like a an ongoing relationship with, know, and I've gotten more you'll you probably get this to people they're like, hey, we should partner we should do something and then you kind of feel a little bit like, well, I've got limited time and bandwidth and I'm not sure this is exactly the way that relationship is going to go right now, you know, never say no forever, but at least uh like one of my favorite phrases for situations like that is like,
31:26
You know not not to not now, but maybe maybe sometime, you know, like So not today, but let's revisit I want to go back to one word you used which was open I think or based on my experience people who are open to meeting with me are also open to meeting with other people
31:55
Which means they often have a pretty wide network. You can't even build a network if you're not open. And so I think that's good news for people who may be listening and may think I, I need this. What was it? IRP ideal. They need that concept in their lives. They need a process to go with it.
32:22
I think some people don't get one started because they're afraid what if I reach out to people and they are closed off, they don't want to talk to me. And I think, well, good. If they don't want to talk to you, they probably are pretty skeptical and closed off and other areas. That usually means they wouldn't have made a great referral partner as it is. The one exception being
32:52
very influential and or powerful and or wealthy and or famous people who've kind of learned that they have to dramatically limit access to themselves and to their calendars. That's a whole other category we're not even talking about. But uh openness, that's what you're kind of looking for in a referral partner. Last question on that. Do you divide your time between
33:21
catch-up calls with referral partners that you already know and new potential referral partners and if so, what's the split between the two? Yeah, good question. um I would say, you know, I try to catch up with folks that have sent me business like at least six every six months, you know, some sort of conversation, um even if it's just a text like
33:48
My goal is to move people into the friend category. If you can get in the friend category, the referrals are just going to come easy, you know? um And so usually that means like if we're texting, then we're buds. um so it doesn't necessarily mean we have to have a call. Like I, I had a call this week with a referral partner that um we haven't talked in person or maybe even on Zoom in like seven years and
34:16
We just hopped on a zoom call. He saw me speaking at a story brand event and was like, Hey, good job. And we got, we caught up and, I was like, let's, uh, let's just hop on a call. So we scheduled a call and within about three days of that kind of text exchange and then scheduling a call, he had sent me a referral and it was like, just so funny. Just like that touch point of the, of the pre folks that have sent you business in the past, but maybe haven't talked to man. That's really valuable. So I probably need to be doing more of that, but
34:45
Right now I'm focused probably 80 % of the time on or 80 % of the volume on new folks and into the networking community, the community being my, my friends. So beyond just chemistry and enjoying talking to people, you didn't have that so much with the one guy that you mentioned earlier, who you thought about. I'm fine not meeting with him again, but people that
35:15
You don't think that about you have some good chemistry with you genuinely enjoy the conversation or beyond your own enjoyment of the conversation. there specific criteria, specific check boxes because, and I'll just be candid here. I like people. I find people interesting. I think if I'm honest, I've not wasted, but spent too much time.
35:46
with people who realistically could not be strategic for my business in any way. So what are your criteria and how do you avoid that trap? Yeah, that's good. I'm probably, I've just gotten so much business from people that I thought would never send me business in the past that I'm like, I'm like, man, I'm open to probably more than most people would be. when I get a cold email, I'm like, huh, cool. Like,
36:15
maybe there's a person behind this I could reach out to. Not everybody's going to have that approach and I get that. em But I, know, as things do get busier, you do have to be a little bit more selective. I, em the criteria typically are, do I view them as a, as a peer? Like, do I see this person as someone that is kind of on the same wavelength business wise? Not necessarily that they're at the same level, but
36:44
Is there someone, is it someone that I respect the way they think and operate? um Can they, if they were to send me a client of some sort, would I feel like they, would I trust their judgment about who to work with? um You know, is this someone, like if they've come as a referral from this person, more than likely there's some filtering process. They're not a crazy person, you know, um and so that's one aspect.
37:13
Can't always guarantee that, but, then I think a third category would be, um, do they, do they, yeah, obvious one. Like, do they work with people that I'm trying to reach, you know, that I'm trying to connect with or are they in the same circles in a complimentary way? Um, and not, and sometimes it's literally the exact same lane. Like I've got some people that I do the exact same things as.
37:43
But because we have a relationship when they either are at capacity and can't take on any more work or it's a slightly not their wheelhouse or they just have had one person one referral partner of mine sent me a lead one time she was like these guys like they're just very macho like they're macho people and I'm not like the most macho guy out there but I'm definitely more macho than this
38:10
lady. was like, will let you bro out with them. I do not want to bro out. Exactly. you're like, okay. Exactly. And so ended up being a really fun project and something I've had in my portfolio for a while. And so I wouldn't write anybody off if they're even just direct competitors. I like to meet with people that are selling sometimes to the exact same people. And so yeah, that's probably the biggest criteria I think through.
38:39
Those are good. have two more questions before we end. First question is kind of piggybacking on the ideal referral partner topic. Is there anything else that you're doing related to marketing and growth right now? Then the question after that is, let's talk about who a dream client would be.
39:07
and why that company or brand would be a dream client. Sure. Let's talk through that one first. So my dream client is somewhere as someone that's in B2B. They sell B2B. They're not selling cupcakes and yoga pants unless there's consulting that goes along with it usually for other businesses. And then um typically they're selling... a cupcake consultant. That sounds great. You know what? I'm sure there are some out there, but... And it's a nice tie in with freelance cake too. Oh, there you go.
39:37
Look at that. um so I would say dream client, somebody that sells something complex, expensive, or potentially confusing. They're B2B. Usually that ends up being like a technology and or a service company. So a lot of times they've got both together, either consulting and a platform or just a platform or just consulting and coaching. Um, typically they're in the one to $10 million range. They don't have a full house, a full time and
40:07
in-house team. They might have like one person uh or maybe a couple of marketing folks and they are you know typically they're folks that understand I know this isn't like a vertical positioning necessarily but they understand the value of not spending money on marketing until we have the message clear otherwise we're just like mumbling into a microphone you know we're just louder we're spending money on marketing but the message isn't clear so uh
40:36
They want to get that right but then they want somebody long term that can help them turn that content, turn that one message into lots of content. And ah I think of it in terms of assets that grease the sales pipeline. stuff that's going to make conversions smoother, it's going to make your presentations easier, whether it's pitch decks or case studies, one liners, blogs, emails, all that stuff. So converting and nurturing folks throughout the B2B sales pipeline. That's kind of a dream client.
41:04
You know, they, they sell them confusing and they're, they're looking for somebody outside that can help them, uh, make it simpler. So it's easier. So you mentioned maybe it's not a part of vertical positioning. I think a part of positioning that doesn't get talked about often enough is what a client must believe or think.
41:32
in order to be a good client for you. Because if the client believes that they need to have their core messaging dialed in before they can really create effective content, because otherwise isn't it highly probable that they will say the wrong thing or that what they say and therefore their content just won't resonate? Like
42:00
their content is going to fall with a thud until they have really strong messaging. And so I love that idea of one or two, or maybe even a whole set of beliefs where you put out as a service provider, as a freelancer consultant, fractional, whatever, put that out. Hey, here is the flag that I'm flying. You need to believe this.
42:28
you need to think this and if you do believe this let's work together. Yeah I love that. Because there will be some people who hold up their hands metaphorically and they're like well we or even just saying I believe this you need to believe this too is it self-educational. So it is. I just wanted to throw that out there. Yeah and if I'm thinking about what they need to know before working with me one of the things is that anything
42:55
that marketing and content and messaging is not, it's really not about the words. It's about the thinking. It's what, what you're paying someone not to write stuff. GPT will do that for you much cheaper, but you're paying for someone to think for you. Um, think persuasively about what you're doing. And so your, your concept of like, what do I want people to know before working with me or what do they need to know to some degree? see that as like my link that that is our content strategy.
43:23
Like we're trying to train people in how to think so that when a problem arises, we are ready to serve them. They think of us to serve them. Um, I want to put some more thought into this, but I've had this idea in the past and I've begun a little bit of work on it, but we talk about the customer journey, you know, like, uh, you know, problem aware solution aware provider aware, you know, all that stuff. But what about, what about the thinking journey? If we were to think about a journey,
43:52
that someone is making in their thinking, what do they need to be thinking? Like where do they start and then how do they move throughout? And what are the things that they progress through to get to the point where now they're thinking the right way and buying from you is a breeze, a piece of freelance cake. I love that idea and I want to double click on that just for a second. We've had clients that were doing the opposite, meaning
44:18
While we were working with them, we were like, they just don't get it. They're treating content like it's some silver bullet. It's not a silver bullet. Your content can only be as good as your messaging. Your messaging can only be as good as your positioning and differentiation. If you don't know who you are and what your point of view is, like, you know, your content can't outperform that. And so it seems like we've danced around this idea.
44:46
But we normally just kind of air our grievances about clients who don't really get it. When we maybe should take a step back, look at that thinking journey or that belief journey and say, what content can I create to move people from stage one of the thinking journey to stage two and from stage two to stage three. And if you were to even have signature frameworks on the mind right now,
45:16
I just created a training for the community about signature frameworks. But if you were to create a signature framework that talked about sort of the phases of evolution for B2B service providers or folks with it like a complex technology or product and say, hey, if you really want to win with your marketing, if you really want to grow, here's what evolving your thinking looks like.
45:45
related to marketing and content, I think people would look at that and be like, I have to talk to this guy. Yeah. And that's the sort of stuff. That's a great point. I just made some notes. So sorry if you heard my typing, but, um, good. Glad you got something out of this. It's been a lot of fun for me. Yep. Even if you get one download, man, somebody benefited me, but, um, yeah, I think that is a great, a great way of
46:13
thinking through not just like what content to create but the purpose of it, you know, there's lead generation you can do lead generation but More often than not like we want to create demand for our products right our demand for our services We want people to want to work with us. So a lead is just kind of a passive sort of concept and but a a when you're creating demand, it's about like
46:39
putting a fire in someone's mind about opportunities and possibilities and new ways to solve old problems. And uh I think that thinking journey is that idea that you're talking about is something to it. yeah, fun stuff. think some of my best, or I know some of my best content has come from asking this question. What beliefs do I need to help my folks in my target audience break?
47:09
And upgrade because there are some beliefs that keep them in a place of stagnation inertia frustration pain there are some beliefs that invite growth like we sometimes want to grow and I don't mean to make this to Like too much about mindset, but I think we're not ready to grow sometimes because we don't believe the right things. Yeah
47:38
Yeah, kind of goes back to why I even have a job as a coach where I'm like, Hey, I noticed this sort of thought defect. Let me push back on that. What could, what else could you believe that is equally true or more true that actually gives you permission to grow? And there's always some uh more expansive alternative. And if, if I can help them deposit, internalize, embrace those beliefs, then
48:08
Good things come with that. But before we end, give me just rapid fire answer to that other question. How are you thinking about marketing and growth right now? What else are you doing just beyond these like DMS and. Calls, yeah, so I would say there's two big priorities for me this year. One is LinkedIn and one is partnerships. So.
48:38
For me, LinkedIn looks like consistency. I'm not trying to be super creative. I'm trying to be consistent. I'm trying to educate on how to think. I'm trying to show from my lived experience rather than just educating for education's sake. So instead of things like how to do this, it's more like how I did this, how this client did this. So things from lived experience. Gary Vee talks about it as
49:06
documenting versus creating. So I'm wanting to do more kind of documenting about my life um and uh experimenting. like lately I've been experimenting with some ah with humor a little bit. Like this is just how I think. I think this is a funny thing about life and I want to and it has something to do with writing. So I'm going to throw that out there and just kind of see where it goes. And um being open to things crashing and burning is part of my strategy here too. It's like not everything's gonna not everything's gonna hit but
49:35
uh I did do a post recently in the experimenting vein that was, it was basically paint swatches. I took a picture of paint swatches where I was trying to find some paint at Home Depot and the names were just hilarious. were so... I want that job. I know. did. You know what? I posted it and I said, hey, somebody out there has this job. You know, they're naming these paint swatches. And I ended up getting connected with like the Sherwin Williams paint. uh
50:04
philosopher, essentially. So like, we're not best friends or anything, but we did make the connection. And it was like people like, you need to be- You can't make that up, right? know. Yeah. And then another thing came out of that was this ties back in to kind of the LinkedIn play. I think of them as plays. there's some plays that you can run over and over and over. You post something, you follow up with anybody who commented or engaged personally to see if there's some-
50:31
you know, human connection we can make, whether it's just DMS or whether it's, uh, on a call. did that with one of the persons that commented on the paint swatches post. was hundreds of folks and then, and he ended up inviting me on his podcast to talk to his audience, you know, so it's like, it's not always like a lead per se, but those things lead to more conversations, which lead to opportunities and leads. so just see where it goes. then, um,
51:01
Also, I'm on the partnership side, it kind of ties into LinkedIn, what we've been talking about, but just are there things like this, there podcasts, are there opportunities for me to speak at other events, are there referral partners that I need to bring into my network, so being intentional about that. One of the campaigns I'm running right now is ah an experiment to fractional CMOs, because they're in several businesses usually at once, they're not the person writing all the content uh or doing the messaging, but they need somebody to do it.
51:30
at some point they need to make that, they need to tee that up usually. And so I want to be on their bench of people that they think they're so somewhat right now I'm testing some outbound. I'm about to start testing some outbound messaging to cold emails to my ideal referral partner, leading with value, not like asking for anything, but em so stuff like that where how can I get more energy around one person who can send me five people then
51:58
five people in the hopes that I find one that can work with me. Yeah. Makes sense. So I know that there will be people who listen and think he's interesting. Where should people who want to find out more about you go? Yeah. Two places. uh Just look me up on LinkedIn. That's where I'm, like I said, I'm putting a lot of energy in there lately. So Josh Cantrell, C-A-N-T-R-E-L-L. And then uh my company's name is Signal Brand Works. All one word.
52:28
That's where you can kind of see what we do and if there's anybody that, if you like to book a call, go ahead, book a call there. We could talk about your business. We can talk about referring each other business. We can do some of this partnership uh applying some of this conversation together. So we'd love to do that with some of your listeners. Cool. Thank you so much. knew this would be a great conversation. You delivered a great conversation. You get a special delivery sticker.
52:57
Or maybe it'll be a master of ceremonies. Love it. you go. And so thank you again, friend. And talk to you soon. See you soon. Hey, before you go, let me invite you to join our community for more established advanced freelancers. It's called the Freelance Cake Community. One member named Michelle had this to say, I'm just so impressed by the quality of the conversation that's happening in the group.
53:25
The in-depth questions, experiments, and thoughts being shared are just so refreshing. And the other communities I'm a part of, it's all beginner questions, which is fine, but it's awesome to find a more advanced space where it's okay to ask more advanced questions. Thank you, Michelle. Here's a little more about the community. Each week we do live group coaching and live coworking.
53:50
You get access to a massive resource library and obviously the community itself, which we host using Circle. Of course, the people are the best part of all this. It really helps to surround yourself with smart, accomplished, and optimistic people who are out there taking risks and building the businesses they really want. If that interests you, visit Freelance.
54:17
www.thedrk.com forward slash community to learn more and apply. can find that link in the show notes. I hope to see you there.
There's lead generation. You can do lead generation, but more often than not, we want to create demand for our products, right? Our demand for our services. We want people to want to work with us. A lead is just kind of a passive sort of concept. When you're creating demand, it's about putting a fire in someone's mind about opportunities and possibilities.
00:21
Hey there. Welcome to the freelance cake podcast. I'm your host, Austin L. Church, founder of the Freelance Cake community. The goal of this show is to help full-time committed freelancers get better leverage. As the sworn enemy of busyness and burnout, I have no desire whatsoever to see you work harder. So I reveal the specific beliefs, principles, and practices you can use right away to make the freelance game more profitable and satisfying. So chill out, listen in because the best is yet to come.
01:00
Welcome to another episode of the Freelance Cake Podcast. If you've been freelancing for a while, you've probably had the rug pulled out from underneath you at least once. That can look like losing a client, having a particularly lean month, or maybe even a job that ends sooner than you expected. My guest today, Josh Cantrell, built his entire self-employment career out of these moments. What could have been a setback for Josh became the starting line. Josh is now a messaging and positioning strategist who works primarily with B2B companies that sell complex products or services. The kind of businesses that know they need better marketing but aren't always sure where to start.
01:49
Josh and I talk about his evolution from doing anything and everything to specializing in strategy positioning and high leverage messaging. There are several big themes in this conversation and one of them is frameworks. Specifically why having a framework changes how clients perceive you, how it builds your confidence, and how it allows you to deliver higher value outcomes instead of just deliverables. If you work with businesses that want marketing results but haven't nailed their messaging yet, you'll appreciate this discussion with Josh, especially why clarity comes before amplification and how teaching clients what to believe can be just as important as writing the words for them. If you're thinking about specializing or about strengthening your messaging or raising your standards or building a referral engine instead of just relying on hope marketing, this episode is for you. Please enjoy my conversation with Josh Cantrell.
02:55
I am here with my friend, Josh Cantrell, and I can say friend because we've known each other a long time and because we see each other almost every day. We are in the same office.
03:07
Yep. You're my landlord.
03:09
Hey, don't go spreading that around. Josh, thank you so much for agreeing to chat with me. For people who know nothing about you, why don't we start with how long you have been self-employed?
03:27
Yeah, self-employed. Well, I was employed on January 1st, 2017. I was unemployed January 2nd, 2017. Yeah. So that is the day.
03:39
I've been there. It's not funny at all.
03:42
No, it's more funny now. It was less funny then. So yeah, walked into the office and it was a job I'd had for a little while. Felt like it was like, man, this is kind of the next step up in my career. Pretty soon felt like, man, this isn't a place I think I want to be long-term. Didn't end up working out on both sides. And so we parted ways that January 2nd, 2017. And from then just kind of kickstarted my freelance journey. I remember the first conversation I had after I was unemployed with a friend, he said, huh, so that means you're on the market. Like I was like, yeah, I guess so. Uh, he's like, you want to do some work for our company? And, um, I was like, maybe I do, sure, what do you want? You know, I need to make some money. Let's do it. And so, um, that was kind of the first inkling of maybe, maybe I could make a business out of my skill, you know, out of the things that I know and how I think.
04:42
I didn't have a whole lot of direction at that point, but it was the first time I was like, huh, maybe I don't have to work in house. Maybe I don't have to go work for an agency. Maybe I could do my own thing. And it just slowly evolved over that year to where eventually I ended up making as much on my own, not just through the marketing business, but through the other side hustles that I had to kind of keep the family afloat. I made as much on my own as I had after this other job, which is the most money I'd ever made before. And then the next year, you know, just grew and grew from there.
05:12
Two things. One, come a little bit closer to the mic if you can. And then two, did you have kids at the time? What was your mindset like when you woke up on January 2nd?
05:29
Yeah. So I did have two kids. We have four now. And then later that year we had our third. So I was still kind of in the mix of, I know, yeah, it was, it was funny. So yeah, my mindset was pretty much, you know, I'm a Christian so I was like, all right, Lord, what's the path? You know, where do we go from here? How are you going to provide? How are you going to show up for us in this family that I know you care about? And so there was some anxiety along the way for sure, but that there was just a piece that like, this is going to be okay. You know, we're going to be fine. And also like, I will do whatever it takes. Like if I need to, you know, sell plasma three times a week or you know, if I need to not eat three days a week, like whatever, I mean, it'll work. But thankfully, I never got to that point, got all my plasma still and definitely didn't go without any meals. So, but yeah, it was the mindset was kind of, it could be a jarring scenario where you're like, man, I feel like I'm doing really good. I've got a lot of potential. I was pretty early in my career still. And then you lose your job and you're like, what do you do? Like how, what does this mean about me? I think a lot of that thought in that process or in that timeframe was like, does this mean I'm bad? And so does this mean I'm not good at what I do, you know, or was this just maybe not a good fit, you know? And I think, I think I had some things to learn, you know, definitely needed to learn and grow, but also just coming to the piece that's like, no, I've got some things that like, if I could channel them, put them in the right direction, this is going to be, I can create a much better scenario than this previous scenario. So it was the mindset. think the biggest change over time was mindset growth to, uh, yeah, just kind of shed like an uncomfortable situation. One that I didn't, you know, didn't feel fun. Wasn't enjoyable, a bad kind of work environment in many ways to like, can create something that I want to build. You know, I can create my own space in the world for the value I want to create. So that was a fun.
07:38
It definitely wasn't a quick fix, you know, but like every freelance are out there when they're first starting, there's so much. We like to call it imposter syndrome. Sometimes I think it's just a lack of, uh lack of clarity, you know, and to some degree, a lack of competence where you're seeing a gap between what I need to do and where I am. And so over that, over that year or two, first couple of years, get some reps under your belt about how to send proposals, how to package things, how to price stuff, being able to reference back to previous clients like that competence builds and the confidence comes as a result of that. So, yeah, so that was kind of my mindset at the time and how it evolved a little bit.
08:22
So that was 2017. We are recording this conversation in 2026. Has your business gone through multiple iterations over the years or are you still doing pretty much the same things you were doing back in 2017?
08:43
Yeah, well in early 2017 I was flipping the contents of storage units that I bought, my own storage wars scenario which not fun. Yeah, I did. I did anything. I started a YouTube or not a YouTube eBay store. I was DJing like two to three weddings a weekend. That was another side hustle left over from my college years. And then a big transition was when it was like, I'm not going to DJ any weddings anymore. And I am canceling this eBay store. That's when I felt like I'd really made it as a freelancer. It's like, I'm done. That was probably early the next year, 2018. And then I totally forgot your question. What was it?
09:30
Well, I'll get back to that question. Let me ask this one instead. Did you have a DJ name?
09:37
No, we were kind of classy. I was in the classy DJ category where it was just Josh. I was a master of ceremonies and also like lead dance for party guy. But in college, you know, I might've been known as Jay wiki flavor. So you can, you can keep that Jay.
09:55
I like master of ceremonies. I think you should rebrand your agency now as Master of ceremonies. The question was as your business gone through multiple iterations Yes, since 2017. Yeah, can you explain what some of them are or were if so?
10:17
Sure. So early on it was anything and everything you can get you know, just like a lot of folks It's like yeah, I can do that. I can figure that out um toward the end of 2017 I went through the story brand process and realized like, I want to include this into my business. So I got certified in that. That framework was the first big jump, I think, um in how I deliver loosely copywriting. Like copywriting and messaging was kind of like what I was doing, what I felt like I wanted to do. That first year, two, three years though, I was doing paid ads, kind of a general service, marketing agency for small businesses. And so I was running ads, I was building websites, we were sending emails, we were doing all sorts of stuff. Graphic design, geez, I was actually designing stuff too then, not a good idea. But, late 2017 got certified in the StoryBrain process and that gave some clarity and focus around, huh, there's, if I could package up some real messaging specific offers and content specific packages for people, like I could maybe trim away the rest of this stuff. 2020 is the year that really where that kind of fully came to fruition. Some people make decisions quickly. I make them very slowly apparently. So two, three years later, 2020, started, I cut off all the general service marketing stuff. I even stopped building websites and I was just messaging and positioning and just copying content packages.
11:53
That was helpful for a time. I have found that over the years I have lost opportunities that I would otherwise have probably gotten if I could have said, hey, we've got someone for that. Like we can handle that. Let me help you with that. And not everybody needs to do that, but I have felt like this is the right time to, past year or so has been the right time to bring in more intentionally like, hey, let me pitch a package, moving more into less a full service agency and more just like a marketing strategist that can get you what you need and it starts with message messaging and then let's talk about the assets you need to build and will handle a lot we can handle a lot of that. The one other change that's probably happened in terms of the business has been tacking on for certain clients a fractional CMO type relationship where if it's a good fit, I don't lead with this, but if it's a good fit on the backend and they're like, Hey, how can we get your thoughts in our world more often? How can we make sure that the content we're putting out is, quote unquote, right, you know, and help us help the leadership team think about marketing implications and sales implications of what we're deciding. So those are fun relationships. I've got, uh, usually two to three of those at any given time. I actually just kind of pitched one this morning. So that's going to be fun too.
13:26
Let's go back just for a second to StoryBrand. What is that?
13:33
Yeah. So StoryBrand is a framework based on, I believe it's Joseph Campbell's Hero's journey which is a pretty academic look at what are the principles of story and StoryBrand has kind of commercialized that for small business, you know, any size business that needs to clarify something. And so it's a framework for taking the principles of story and applying them to your business content. So there's seven components of it. And it's not like the only thing you're ever going to say, but most of the time your messaging will come from one of these areas. Everything you say will tie in in some way to the story that your customers are living out. And that's kind of the key paradigm shift for a lot of people that goes through the process is that It's not our story as the business that we're trying to tell. It's our customer's story. And where do we fit in? How do we communicate about what we do in a way that makes the customer and makes the client the, for lack of a less cliche way of putting it, the hero. So they are the hero. And I think everybody knows this. I tend to think everybody gets that, but I just had a workshop a week or two ago, and I explained that principle and the CEO's like light bulb just went off above his head. You could see him and he was like, I have never heard that before. And I'm like, man, this is, this is crazy that people are still learning for the first time. And that's why stuff like this, your podcast and you know, our marketing as marketers is so helpful is like, man, there's just tons of people in the world and they need to hear this stuff. So, um, yeah.
15:16
I would say at least half the billboards I see the main message is from a company or brand saying in effect, we are awesome. Not saying we understand this problem that you have. So I think it's still unusual when people's storytelling, people's like a company's or brands storytelling and marketing is customer centric instead of like, or customer centered instead of self centered. So back to StoryBrand or more broadly back to certification, you saw, sounds like you saw this step change in your career when you got ahold of a framework that enabled you to deliver a higher value outcome or offer plus outcome. Is that accurate? Did I summarize that the right way?
16:25
100%. Yeah. So the StorybBrand Guide Certification Program, which I highly recommend oh in general for marketers, but it was one helpful for learning a framework that I can lean on in making decisions for my clients and explain my rationale. So that's what's the important, that's to some extent the importance of a framework in what we're doing. Even if you just make it up, like here's our framework, you at least have a reason. Like, oh, we're not gonna go that route because of this. Or I would push back on this a little bit because of this principle. And so that gives you some more weight rather than just thinking, the client thinking, oh, they're just winging it. I guess we're just paying for this person's expertise, which is sometimes very valuable. Like if I'm going to hire David C. Baker to come and instruct my agency, I'm not, I'm going to shut up and listen and just whatever his gut says, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go with, right? But if I am just getting started, having a framework to lean back on is super helpful for justifying decisions and for making decisions. But, and so, yeah, I would say that the guide certification program as a whole also just gave me some specific offers. Like here's a jumpstart to your thinking on what kind of offer you could put together to be valuable to someone. And I've gone through lots of iterations of that over the years and kind of made it my own. But yeah, I would say your assessment is right on.
17:58
You are 10 years in now. How has your mindset changed?
18:05
I think early on, it felt like the world was small and stingy. You know, like there's not a lot of money out there. My network isn't very big. I'm struggling. What I've realized is like the world is very big and there is plenty of money to go around. And so like you have a bad month and you think, all right, know, bad months now are like previously what would have been my best months, you know, my great months.
18:34
but so that funny.
18:35
It is funny. And, but yeah, there's just, there's tons of opportunity, abundance mindset, you know, that kind of idea. And when you lose a client, similar to losing the job, like it doesn't mean anything like score clients chase shiny objects. Sometimes they just want a new person to work with. Sometimes they're the problem and that's good. It's just the natural ebb and flow of relationships in this world. So ideally, yeah, you keep them forever. But part of the mindset has been there is always another client out there, you know, and you just got to go find them. So for one of my mindset, that's kind of the core of the mindset. There's a lot of opportunity out there and the world is not stingy. The world is, there's a lot of very generous people and there's a lot to go around. I would say another aspect of my mindset that's changed has been leveling up what my standards are. So I think it's Tony Robbins who says something like we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our standards. And so when I'm thinking about the money that I want to make during a month, at the end of the month, if I've already hit my standard, I'm kind of like, that comes in after this is great, you know? But if I'm not to the standard, I get uncomfortable and I start taking more action, you know? Like, the standard is this. And so part of the mindset change, I remember telling somebody, I was doing some coaching program, and they were like, are your goals at the end of this? I was like, man, I just want to be making 10K a month. Like, if I could make 10,000 a month, that would be like, oh man, I've made it. And he was like, no, wait, no, really.
20:32
That's cute. Yeah, that's cute. How many kids do you have?
20:37
Yeah, exactly. He was, he kind of chuckled a little bit. I think he was a little shocked. I was like, oh man, am I not ambitious enough? Like what, what, what should it be? He's like, all right, I'm not going to tell you 50K a month by next week, but let's at least double that. Okay. Just to get you thinking at a higher level. And so from then on, that's been my kind of my standard, like, my new standard is 20. And I'm not there yet, but I'm working toward it. And since then had many, many months above above 20, right? And so and now that's the new standard. That's like. So hopefully that idea makes sense of not just rising to the occasion, but like, what do you truly believe is possible and the minimum you're willing to accept? And so. You don't always hit it, but at least that's that's a little different than like shooting for the stars, you know, shoot for the moon. And if you miss your land among the stars, it's a little different from that. Right. It's like, no, I want to I'm going to hold myself to this level of execution and results.
21:41
Do you have standards for anything else? Across your life. I'm sure you do. yeah, specifically in your business.
21:54
Yeah, in the business, would say 20K is the standard. That's like anything below that is frustrating to me, you know, whereas before anything above that would have been like, holy smokes, you know, so the mindset change over time. Other, other standards in the business, I think are. One of the things that's really important to me is not just to do the work, but to make sure that my clients are, to the best of my ability, happy with the results, you know? And even if that means me going through like four rounds of revisions, it doesn't put, this is a line I have to walk carefully, but setting expectations and dealing with clients that have unrealistic expectations, that is a reality. And sometimes you just can't.
22:49
You just, no matter how good you are, nobody's going to make them happy because they don't even know what they want. know? So, um, but that has been, that's been a standard where it's like, this client is going to feel heard, seen, understood. I'm going to ask questions, um, that go beyond just like, what do I need to get, do my job? But what do I need to make sure that they feel like they are being, um, like someone has truly stepped inside their shoes and inside their scenario, you know, their business.
23:19
and is thinking on their behalf. um, uh other standards kind of like on a, practical level are like one to two ideal, like referral partner meetings a week. So I try to meet with one, one to two people every week that are not my ideal client, but an ideal, what I call an IRP, not an ICP, but an IRP ideal referral partner. And so these are the, instead of just going after clients every day,
23:48
uh... and clients every week i want i have a standard of these are the is the number of conversations i'm gonna have with people that can refer me business if i win one of them to my cause bring me more people passively and so that's been a really productive and fruitful uh... kind of standard or expectation on myself too is that something you came up with or is that something you found somewhere do you remember
24:15
Yeah, I went out back in the day. I got my start, kind of cut my teeth in marketing at a, IT company, a local IT company and the sales, was very direct sales driven and marketing was kind of like a, Hey, can you just make us look pretty and you know, manage events for us and stuff like that. And so, um, but I was a part of a lot of the, a lot part of a lot of the sales conversations and the key metric that they were concerned with was, um, first time appointments and
24:43
Centers of influence. So two metrics that they looked at was how many first time appointments did you set every week? They wanted three, like three is the minimum. If each salesperson can get three of those with a qualified opportunity, then the business will grow. Everything else comes down after that. The second one was this idea of centers of influence. Who are the people that know the people that we need to know? And can I treat them with the same level of kind of urgency and outreach?
25:13
you know, can I have a process about getting around those folks similar to that, that we do to sales and sales prospects. So that's kind of where it came from, um, was just seeing how lucrative a network of people that just know about what you do and are keeping their ear out and having, having relationships. And so for me, the past probably three months, three to four months has been a realization that I,
25:42
I think as freelancers, it's pretty easy to get isolated where you're just doing your own thing. You're in your own world. Um, but it's funny, almost every time I talk with another marketer that even does something pretty similar to what I do, they're like, you know what? I had this conversation with somebody. I think you need to talk to them. Like, it's not a good fit for me. And I'm be like, huh, okay, interesting. Let's do it. So seeing that happen more and more often was like, Oh, I need to
26:11
Prioritize this, you know, I need to make sure that I need to do this on purpose. So Can you walk me through what that process looks like for you how you start the conversation? Any questions you might ask the first time you talk to people Yeah, do you follow up? How do you keep in touch and stay top of mind? Yeah, yeah, sure totally. um a lot of times lately this has been starting with
26:41
DMs. So LinkedIn DMs or like communities that I'm a part of, the StoryBrand community is one of them too. um So this will kind of tie into my content strategy too. So let's say you post something on LinkedIn, you get a first, second or third degree connection that engages or comments in some way. Most people just stop right there and maybe reply to the comment. But my strategy lately has been, I'm going to reach out to every single person on this list that either I don't know,
27:11
or I'm not connected to, em or maybe we've talked but we haven't talked in a while and turn that into a human conversation. So let's see here. mean on Zoom, if you can? Yeah, yeah, if I can. If nothing else. Video call, not just like a DM thread. Well, first it's always a DM, you know, we're just chatting. And one of my favorite questions is like, hey, are you just going after CPAs? It might be on their profile.
27:39
Or are you just going after it companies or are just, who are you trying to reach? Ask them a question about themselves to open up the conversation. It's kind of in the vein of business. And then, um, and then if it seems like someone that might be a good referral partner for me and vice versa, I'll just say, Hey, let me know if you're up for a chat sometime. I'd love to get to know more about what you do to see if there's a way we can help each other. Something very similar to that. Um, and it's just surprising how often people are open to it. So, um, and so we'll hop on that call.
28:09
And my entire goal during that call is to get to know them, not to pitch myself, not to do anything. I just want to have a conversation where um at the end of the conversation, even if I've never said anything about myself, they feel like, oh man, he didn't talk at all. man, I need to go, I need to ask him about himself. And so rather than just like pitching me,
28:33
It's almost like, Hey, I'm gonna ask you about your yourself until you think, man, this is inappropriate. I'm going to start talking about you. then there's a genuine need to reciprocate. Yeah. What about you, Josh? What do you do? Yeah. And it's not like a ploy. think that's genuinely how I try to show up in the world too. It's just, I want to know about you and maybe there's a way that you can help me, but I'm not going to leave with that. So I'm thinking on those calls, like, who can I connect this person to? Who do they need? Uh, is there a book or a podcast or just something that I can
29:02
that I can use to kind of point them, help them on their journey in some way. Um, and so typically at the end of those calls, it's either like, Hey, let's do this again. Or very, I like this week. I have one that was very obviously not just not going to be a good long-term relationship. You know what I mean? Well, say more about that. don't want you to out anybody, but what made you realize I don't need to do this with this person again? Yeah.
29:32
uh I was 20 minutes into the conversation. I still didn't understand what he did like or what he was trying to get out of a Get out of our relationship. You know what I mean? It was just very a very very cool Guy like a good business. I mean not necessarily like super profitable at the time but I'm like man. There's a place for you in the market. I would love to see you
29:58
I see you thrive. I was just honestly so confused. left that conversation and I'm, I'm the guy that takes confusing things and tries to make them simple. So they're easier to sell. That's my business, but I still didn't get, didn't get it. So it was one of those, I was like, you know, he's starting out a little bit earlier in his career. Um, and I wasn't, it just didn't feel like a good long-term fit. Great guy. We'll probably still talk to him in some way, but it wasn't one of those where you just click with someone and you're like, Oh,
30:28
you're an asset to me and I'm an asset to you. Let's, let's figure out how to be tighter, you know? I think it's important to emphasize, Hey, it's okay to give yourself permission to not keep in touch. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Especially if you're going to do this on any, at any scale, like I'm trying to do now, um, that a lot, I want to have like a very broad net for that initial meeting. Like who I take kind of an initial 30 minute call with at some point, but
30:57
a pretty tight group of people that I have like a an ongoing relationship with, know, and I've gotten more you'll you probably get this to people they're like, hey, we should partner we should do something and then you kind of feel a little bit like, well, I've got limited time and bandwidth and I'm not sure this is exactly the way that relationship is going to go right now, you know, never say no forever, but at least uh like one of my favorite phrases for situations like that is like,
31:26
You know not not to not now, but maybe maybe sometime, you know, like So not today, but let's revisit I want to go back to one word you used which was open I think or based on my experience people who are open to meeting with me are also open to meeting with other people
31:55
Which means they often have a pretty wide network. You can't even build a network if you're not open. And so I think that's good news for people who may be listening and may think I, I need this. What was it? IRP ideal. They need that concept in their lives. They need a process to go with it.
32:22
I think some people don't get one started because they're afraid what if I reach out to people and they are closed off, they don't want to talk to me. And I think, well, good. If they don't want to talk to you, they probably are pretty skeptical and closed off and other areas. That usually means they wouldn't have made a great referral partner as it is. The one exception being
32:52
very influential and or powerful and or wealthy and or famous people who've kind of learned that they have to dramatically limit access to themselves and to their calendars. That's a whole other category we're not even talking about. But uh openness, that's what you're kind of looking for in a referral partner. Last question on that. Do you divide your time between
33:21
catch-up calls with referral partners that you already know and new potential referral partners and if so, what's the split between the two? Yeah, good question. um I would say, you know, I try to catch up with folks that have sent me business like at least six every six months, you know, some sort of conversation, um even if it's just a text like
33:48
My goal is to move people into the friend category. If you can get in the friend category, the referrals are just going to come easy, you know? um And so usually that means like if we're texting, then we're buds. um so it doesn't necessarily mean we have to have a call. Like I, I had a call this week with a referral partner that um we haven't talked in person or maybe even on Zoom in like seven years and
34:16
We just hopped on a zoom call. He saw me speaking at a story brand event and was like, Hey, good job. And we got, we caught up and, I was like, let's, uh, let's just hop on a call. So we scheduled a call and within about three days of that kind of text exchange and then scheduling a call, he had sent me a referral and it was like, just so funny. Just like that touch point of the, of the pre folks that have sent you business in the past, but maybe haven't talked to man. That's really valuable. So I probably need to be doing more of that, but
34:45
Right now I'm focused probably 80 % of the time on or 80 % of the volume on new folks and into the networking community, the community being my, my friends. So beyond just chemistry and enjoying talking to people, you didn't have that so much with the one guy that you mentioned earlier, who you thought about. I'm fine not meeting with him again, but people that
35:15
You don't think that about you have some good chemistry with you genuinely enjoy the conversation or beyond your own enjoyment of the conversation. there specific criteria, specific check boxes because, and I'll just be candid here. I like people. I find people interesting. I think if I'm honest, I've not wasted, but spent too much time.
35:46
with people who realistically could not be strategic for my business in any way. So what are your criteria and how do you avoid that trap? Yeah, that's good. I'm probably, I've just gotten so much business from people that I thought would never send me business in the past that I'm like, I'm like, man, I'm open to probably more than most people would be. when I get a cold email, I'm like, huh, cool. Like,
36:15
maybe there's a person behind this I could reach out to. Not everybody's going to have that approach and I get that. em But I, know, as things do get busier, you do have to be a little bit more selective. I, em the criteria typically are, do I view them as a, as a peer? Like, do I see this person as someone that is kind of on the same wavelength business wise? Not necessarily that they're at the same level, but
36:44
Is there someone, is it someone that I respect the way they think and operate? um Can they, if they were to send me a client of some sort, would I feel like they, would I trust their judgment about who to work with? um You know, is this someone, like if they've come as a referral from this person, more than likely there's some filtering process. They're not a crazy person, you know, um and so that's one aspect.
37:13
Can't always guarantee that, but, then I think a third category would be, um, do they, do they, yeah, obvious one. Like, do they work with people that I'm trying to reach, you know, that I'm trying to connect with or are they in the same circles in a complimentary way? Um, and not, and sometimes it's literally the exact same lane. Like I've got some people that I do the exact same things as.
37:43
But because we have a relationship when they either are at capacity and can't take on any more work or it's a slightly not their wheelhouse or they just have had one person one referral partner of mine sent me a lead one time she was like these guys like they're just very macho like they're macho people and I'm not like the most macho guy out there but I'm definitely more macho than this
38:10
lady. was like, will let you bro out with them. I do not want to bro out. Exactly. you're like, okay. Exactly. And so ended up being a really fun project and something I've had in my portfolio for a while. And so I wouldn't write anybody off if they're even just direct competitors. I like to meet with people that are selling sometimes to the exact same people. And so yeah, that's probably the biggest criteria I think through.
38:39
Those are good. have two more questions before we end. First question is kind of piggybacking on the ideal referral partner topic. Is there anything else that you're doing related to marketing and growth right now? Then the question after that is, let's talk about who a dream client would be.
39:07
and why that company or brand would be a dream client. Sure. Let's talk through that one first. So my dream client is somewhere as someone that's in B2B. They sell B2B. They're not selling cupcakes and yoga pants unless there's consulting that goes along with it usually for other businesses. And then um typically they're selling... a cupcake consultant. That sounds great. You know what? I'm sure there are some out there, but... And it's a nice tie in with freelance cake too. Oh, there you go.
39:37
Look at that. um so I would say dream client, somebody that sells something complex, expensive, or potentially confusing. They're B2B. Usually that ends up being like a technology and or a service company. So a lot of times they've got both together, either consulting and a platform or just a platform or just consulting and coaching. Um, typically they're in the one to $10 million range. They don't have a full house, a full time and
40:07
in-house team. They might have like one person uh or maybe a couple of marketing folks and they are you know typically they're folks that understand I know this isn't like a vertical positioning necessarily but they understand the value of not spending money on marketing until we have the message clear otherwise we're just like mumbling into a microphone you know we're just louder we're spending money on marketing but the message isn't clear so uh
40:36
They want to get that right but then they want somebody long term that can help them turn that content, turn that one message into lots of content. And ah I think of it in terms of assets that grease the sales pipeline. stuff that's going to make conversions smoother, it's going to make your presentations easier, whether it's pitch decks or case studies, one liners, blogs, emails, all that stuff. So converting and nurturing folks throughout the B2B sales pipeline. That's kind of a dream client.
41:04
You know, they, they sell them confusing and they're, they're looking for somebody outside that can help them, uh, make it simpler. So it's easier. So you mentioned maybe it's not a part of vertical positioning. I think a part of positioning that doesn't get talked about often enough is what a client must believe or think.
41:32
in order to be a good client for you. Because if the client believes that they need to have their core messaging dialed in before they can really create effective content, because otherwise isn't it highly probable that they will say the wrong thing or that what they say and therefore their content just won't resonate? Like
42:00
their content is going to fall with a thud until they have really strong messaging. And so I love that idea of one or two, or maybe even a whole set of beliefs where you put out as a service provider, as a freelancer consultant, fractional, whatever, put that out. Hey, here is the flag that I'm flying. You need to believe this.
42:28
you need to think this and if you do believe this let's work together. Yeah I love that. Because there will be some people who hold up their hands metaphorically and they're like well we or even just saying I believe this you need to believe this too is it self-educational. So it is. I just wanted to throw that out there. Yeah and if I'm thinking about what they need to know before working with me one of the things is that anything
42:55
that marketing and content and messaging is not, it's really not about the words. It's about the thinking. It's what, what you're paying someone not to write stuff. GPT will do that for you much cheaper, but you're paying for someone to think for you. Um, think persuasively about what you're doing. And so your, your concept of like, what do I want people to know before working with me or what do they need to know to some degree? see that as like my link that that is our content strategy.
43:23
Like we're trying to train people in how to think so that when a problem arises, we are ready to serve them. They think of us to serve them. Um, I want to put some more thought into this, but I've had this idea in the past and I've begun a little bit of work on it, but we talk about the customer journey, you know, like, uh, you know, problem aware solution aware provider aware, you know, all that stuff. But what about, what about the thinking journey? If we were to think about a journey,
43:52
that someone is making in their thinking, what do they need to be thinking? Like where do they start and then how do they move throughout? And what are the things that they progress through to get to the point where now they're thinking the right way and buying from you is a breeze, a piece of freelance cake. I love that idea and I want to double click on that just for a second. We've had clients that were doing the opposite, meaning
44:18
While we were working with them, we were like, they just don't get it. They're treating content like it's some silver bullet. It's not a silver bullet. Your content can only be as good as your messaging. Your messaging can only be as good as your positioning and differentiation. If you don't know who you are and what your point of view is, like, you know, your content can't outperform that. And so it seems like we've danced around this idea.
44:46
But we normally just kind of air our grievances about clients who don't really get it. When we maybe should take a step back, look at that thinking journey or that belief journey and say, what content can I create to move people from stage one of the thinking journey to stage two and from stage two to stage three. And if you were to even have signature frameworks on the mind right now,
45:16
I just created a training for the community about signature frameworks. But if you were to create a signature framework that talked about sort of the phases of evolution for B2B service providers or folks with it like a complex technology or product and say, hey, if you really want to win with your marketing, if you really want to grow, here's what evolving your thinking looks like.
45:45
related to marketing and content, I think people would look at that and be like, I have to talk to this guy. Yeah. And that's the sort of stuff. That's a great point. I just made some notes. So sorry if you heard my typing, but, um, good. Glad you got something out of this. It's been a lot of fun for me. Yep. Even if you get one download, man, somebody benefited me, but, um, yeah, I think that is a great, a great way of
46:13
thinking through not just like what content to create but the purpose of it, you know, there's lead generation you can do lead generation but More often than not like we want to create demand for our products right our demand for our services We want people to want to work with us. So a lead is just kind of a passive sort of concept and but a a when you're creating demand, it's about like
46:39
putting a fire in someone's mind about opportunities and possibilities and new ways to solve old problems. And uh I think that thinking journey is that idea that you're talking about is something to it. yeah, fun stuff. think some of my best, or I know some of my best content has come from asking this question. What beliefs do I need to help my folks in my target audience break?
47:09
And upgrade because there are some beliefs that keep them in a place of stagnation inertia frustration pain there are some beliefs that invite growth like we sometimes want to grow and I don't mean to make this to Like too much about mindset, but I think we're not ready to grow sometimes because we don't believe the right things. Yeah
47:38
Yeah, kind of goes back to why I even have a job as a coach where I'm like, Hey, I noticed this sort of thought defect. Let me push back on that. What could, what else could you believe that is equally true or more true that actually gives you permission to grow? And there's always some uh more expansive alternative. And if, if I can help them deposit, internalize, embrace those beliefs, then
48:08
Good things come with that. But before we end, give me just rapid fire answer to that other question. How are you thinking about marketing and growth right now? What else are you doing just beyond these like DMS and. Calls, yeah, so I would say there's two big priorities for me this year. One is LinkedIn and one is partnerships. So.
48:38
For me, LinkedIn looks like consistency. I'm not trying to be super creative. I'm trying to be consistent. I'm trying to educate on how to think. I'm trying to show from my lived experience rather than just educating for education's sake. So instead of things like how to do this, it's more like how I did this, how this client did this. So things from lived experience. Gary Vee talks about it as
49:06
documenting versus creating. So I'm wanting to do more kind of documenting about my life um and uh experimenting. like lately I've been experimenting with some ah with humor a little bit. Like this is just how I think. I think this is a funny thing about life and I want to and it has something to do with writing. So I'm going to throw that out there and just kind of see where it goes. And um being open to things crashing and burning is part of my strategy here too. It's like not everything's gonna not everything's gonna hit but
49:35
uh I did do a post recently in the experimenting vein that was, it was basically paint swatches. I took a picture of paint swatches where I was trying to find some paint at Home Depot and the names were just hilarious. were so... I want that job. I know. did. You know what? I posted it and I said, hey, somebody out there has this job. You know, they're naming these paint swatches. And I ended up getting connected with like the Sherwin Williams paint. uh
50:04
philosopher, essentially. So like, we're not best friends or anything, but we did make the connection. And it was like people like, you need to be- You can't make that up, right? know. Yeah. And then another thing came out of that was this ties back in to kind of the LinkedIn play. I think of them as plays. there's some plays that you can run over and over and over. You post something, you follow up with anybody who commented or engaged personally to see if there's some-
50:31
you know, human connection we can make, whether it's just DMS or whether it's, uh, on a call. did that with one of the persons that commented on the paint swatches post. was hundreds of folks and then, and he ended up inviting me on his podcast to talk to his audience, you know, so it's like, it's not always like a lead per se, but those things lead to more conversations, which lead to opportunities and leads. so just see where it goes. then, um,
51:01
Also, I'm on the partnership side, it kind of ties into LinkedIn, what we've been talking about, but just are there things like this, there podcasts, are there opportunities for me to speak at other events, are there referral partners that I need to bring into my network, so being intentional about that. One of the campaigns I'm running right now is ah an experiment to fractional CMOs, because they're in several businesses usually at once, they're not the person writing all the content uh or doing the messaging, but they need somebody to do it.
51:30
at some point they need to make that, they need to tee that up usually. And so I want to be on their bench of people that they think they're so somewhat right now I'm testing some outbound. I'm about to start testing some outbound messaging to cold emails to my ideal referral partner, leading with value, not like asking for anything, but em so stuff like that where how can I get more energy around one person who can send me five people then
51:58
five people in the hopes that I find one that can work with me. Yeah. Makes sense. So I know that there will be people who listen and think he's interesting. Where should people who want to find out more about you go? Yeah. Two places. uh Just look me up on LinkedIn. That's where I'm, like I said, I'm putting a lot of energy in there lately. So Josh Cantrell, C-A-N-T-R-E-L-L. And then uh my company's name is Signal Brand Works. All one word.
52:28
That's where you can kind of see what we do and if there's anybody that, if you like to book a call, go ahead, book a call there. We could talk about your business. We can talk about referring each other business. We can do some of this partnership uh applying some of this conversation together. So we'd love to do that with some of your listeners. Cool. Thank you so much. knew this would be a great conversation. You delivered a great conversation. You get a special delivery sticker.
52:57
Or maybe it'll be a master of ceremonies. Love it. you go. And so thank you again, friend. And talk to you soon. See you soon. Hey, before you go, let me invite you to join our community for more established advanced freelancers. It's called the Freelance Cake Community. One member named Michelle had this to say, I'm just so impressed by the quality of the conversation that's happening in the group.
53:25
The in-depth questions, experiments, and thoughts being shared are just so refreshing. And the other communities I'm a part of, it's all beginner questions, which is fine, but it's awesome to find a more advanced space where it's okay to ask more advanced questions. Thank you, Michelle. Here's a little more about the community. Each week we do live group coaching and live coworking.
53:50
You get access to a massive resource library and obviously the community itself, which we host using Circle. Of course, the people are the best part of all this. It really helps to surround yourself with smart, accomplished, and optimistic people who are out there taking risks and building the businesses they really want. If that interests you, visit Freelance.
54:17
www.thedrk.com forward slash community to learn more and apply. can find that link in the show notes. I hope to see you there.
