spk_0: 0:01
now
spk_1: 0:02
what used to be like, say, five even six years ago, and online course was an online space you locked in. You did the activity. You turned in your assignment. You went home today we realized that the way that Paige is designed in the way you're interacting changes how you're learning that material. So it's becoming far more nuanced far more quickly. Then I think anyone would have expected.
spk_0: 0:24
I am so excited for the second episode of Elevate Ed Toe Have with me in the studio. Trey Chambers. I'm
spk_1: 0:32
excited to be in the second episode. I'm excited to be the John Adams your podcast.
spk_0: 0:41
Welcome to elevate Ed thistles, a space for conversations around, elevating teaching practices and applied learning for nontraditional students from the Mile high city of Denver, Colorado. This podcast is brought to you by the University of Denver's College for Professional and Continuing Education University College, where adult learners have been pursuing career focused credentials since 1938. So let me tell you a little bit about Trey sitting here with me. Trey is an instructional designer at University College. So one of my colleagues here and in this role he supports faculty and subject matter experts with learning design best practices in the development of their online courses. Before becoming an instructional designer, he was a high school English teacher in the Chicago public school system. From there, he moved into an I D roll with Ever Spring Partners in Chicago and then joined the National Democratic Training Committee as the online course producer. Trays, originally from Georgia and graduated from the University of Georgia with a degree in speech communication before earning his master, Siri, and Education from DePaul University in Chicago. Outside of education, Trey has also been an actor in Nashville as he giggles
spk_1: 2:08
loose definition of active
spk_0: 2:10
on improviser in Chicago and, for a brief time, a motorcycle stunt rider in Germany. And, he adds, his parents are happy that he now works in education.
spk_1: 2:23
Yeah, I don't know why they weren't proud of the motorcycle thing. I thought that was a pretty good accomplishment, considering I had never been on a motorcycle before.
spk_0: 2:29
Oh, I think that personal achievement Absolutely. Yeah, that shows some guts. Um, Bron and oh, yeah, Absolutely. I I agree. Thank
spk_1: 2:39
you for your support. Because my mother was not at all happy
spk_0: 2:43
about. I'm sure I don't know that anything like that would have gone over very well with my parents as well. So now that we have a little of your background, walk me through just the fundamentals of universal design for learning otherwise known as you D L and Impacts you, Dale has on higher ed because you've been in this for a while and s o I imagine you have seen a fair amount of changes as this thing field has really been evolving. I'm imagining rapid pace.
spk_1: 3:18
Yeah, very rapidly. I I'm in a weird position where a lot of instructional designers are. A lot of the older instructional designers were coming more from a training background like a skills design background, whereas I come from teaching, and it's just sort of a fortunate overlap that my master's degree included a focus on universal design for learning you d l on. The reason it did is because I was going to teach on the west Side of Chicago and I needed to learn how to design curriculum for diverse learners. And that's what you d l is it a conceptual framework that designs every element of a course from instructional materials to technology tools so that every student, regardless of their accommodations, has an equal opportunity to learn. And that is not a terribly old practice. I want to say it's the 21st century approach. It may have started in the late nineties, but it's definitely now become the main guiding practice for course to sign.
spk_0: 4:24
And I would imagine that over the years, particularly in higher ed is the landscape has been changing that what diverse learning needs. You know how that gets defined has also been changing a lot.
spk_1: 4:40
Yeah, it did. Today. It's really more about inclusivity in terms of how people learn, which is something that is way. We've learned a lot about it recently, but there's still a lot we don't yet know about the ways that different brains process the same piece of information. But what we do know is that the old traditional lecture style is not efficient for everybody, right? That sort of accepted except apprentice now, which is why instructional materials now have their being designed to be more inclusive so that students can interact with them differently from one another. You and I might take the same course with the same instructor. But you're gonna learn something from a lecture video that I won't. And I'm gonna learn something from an interactive tool that you won't. But the idea is that those two paths will eventually lead us to the same place
spk_0: 5:34
and that that makes sense. And it's also really hard. Or, you know, can be challenging. Certainly too. Meet those needs, um, and understand when you're using digital technologies Well, how to use digital technologies. How to be smart about the use of digital technologies when win is too much of wins Too much, when is too little. When are you meeting the needs of your learner's? I mean, all of these things, like I think you can get pretty overwhelming, especially when we're already living in a pretty noisy world.
spk_1: 6:09
Yes, And those are questions that get asked with every single individual course design and the answers are different every single time because a lot of it comes down to what the purposes For the course I was working on a course that is Maura quantitative, that I'm gonna have different tools, right? If I if I'm working on a course, that's more abstract or conceptual, Then I'm gonna have different tools. The idea is that the tools accomplish the same thing regardless, which is creating an active learning opportunity for students so that they're not just receiving information but that they're using it and they're using it in conjunction with other students or in conjunction with, ah, real life scenario or simulation. So they're practicing as they go, and the roll with the idea is to lead the subject matter expert of the faculty, the course author, whatever you wanna call them to answer the question of what is the purpose of this course? And then once we find that the tool recommendation becomes a lot easier.
spk_0: 7:09
Okay, so talk about that process a little bit, because that to you probably makes makes a lot of sense in terms of all of the fine print that falls falls in there.
spk_1: 7:22
Yeah, I admit I've been doing this or studying this for the last 10 years, so I'm pretty used to the conversations, and I tend to struggle when I'm working with someone who's never had to think in terms of backward design before or objectives based learning what we're used to the old style is I'm gonna teach a course on lawn mower maintenance. My students are going to work with a lawn mower. My students are going to mow the lawn, then my going. Then I'm gonna test them on whether they did that correctly. Right? That's the linear layout, of course. Topic to assessment. Backward design, which is a key component of you. D l eyes literally backward. You have a topic that you're gonna teach. I'm gonna teach motorcycle maintenance and ordered for my students to know motorcycle maintenance. They have to perform this assignment at the end of the course in order to perform this assignment. What instructional materials do they need in order for those instructional materials to be processed? What tools do they need in order for those tools to be processed? What accessibility do they need? Right. So I'm working backward to the beginning of the course, and that's how you lay out what the purpose actually is. Because if you go through the process of I'm going to teach motorcycle maintenance, you might think the purpose is to teach motorcycle maintenance, but it's not. The purpose is to fix a Yamaha road. I don't know anything about motors.
spk_0: 8:52
I know nothing about it, but that's
spk_1: 8:55
the purpose. And why is that the purpose? Well, because that's what this these students are gonna need in their careers and their pathways. And
spk_0: 9:03
so it's applying that knowledge and not not just learning the thing, but learning the thing in such a way to where you directly know what to do with the thing once, once you've learned it,
spk_1: 9:14
yes, beginning with the application of the thing and then figuring out how you get them to the application. And so that's the backward part of backward design. And that gets even more complicated. A higher education level, undergrad and graduate. Because the pathways that students through which students can apply these courses is so narrow that the application itself is hard to distinguish, it depends on the program. It depends on the spot student body. It can change from 2018 to 2022. You may have a different student body that the needs of this professional arena may have changed. This course now becomes irrelevant, that kind of thing. So it's constantly evolving and it's constantly reacting to change is that we can't control
spk_0: 10:01
What are some of the biggest changes you've seen as more courses
spk_1: 10:05
are being brought online? Yeah, they're obviously there are a lot of challenges. The most obvious are engaging students with instructor because they are naturally, unnecessarily separate, physically separate from one another. What we're now realizing in the field is that the learning space that you create in a design changes or rather, impacts how your students are learning the material. So now we used to be like five, even six years ago, and online course was an online space you logged in. You did the activity you turned in your assignment. You went home. Today we realized the way that Paige is designed in the way you're interacting changes, how you're learning that material. So it's becoming far more nuanced far more quickly than I think anyone would have expected. And so what? The Smee, the subject matter expert. Their role is to bring the expertise of the subject, and that's kind of all they need to d'oh! They need to let the you know the instructional designer or or the learning specialist there several different names now across the country let them work with They're content to make it pedagogical e sound for these students right now and then The real complication is, after you've done, then you've created this course. It then has to be scaleable for as long as that subject and that application of that subject is relevant.
spk_0: 11:41
Well, yeah, that's what I was just thinking is then you know, the pace of having to redevelop these courses is going to pick up right now
spk_1: 11:50
has the universal design. The idea is that you build a course that becomes kind of the master model of the course. It can then be duplicated for every section going forward for every student going forward until the course itself becomes irrelevant. That gets trickier. Depending on a with the subject is right. If it's a conceptual subject, it may not last in the same way that a quantitative science engineering subject can last or vice versa, and it is dependent on the students. So if you're working for a smaller university who is just starting their online program, they may be designing it for the students that they've had in their on campus classes. Without acknowledging that they may end up with students from international communities who have different learning styles, approaches and needs. And that's something that does kind of take a lot of guesswork, a lot of strategy and then, uh, the willingness to go back and fix it. If it doesn't work.
spk_0: 13:01
There's a lot, a lot a
spk_1: 13:03
motorcycle stunt, right?
spk_0: 13:05
That's for sure. But you're keeping with the motorcycle analogy I've noticed weaving it in. So that's good. I'd like to hear you talk about best ways that we can use technology to enhance student learning.
spk_1: 13:19
So first, let's define technology because most people think of technology. An online course they're thinking of like an interactive video or something that's a little more game ified. There's a There's an entire field of instructional design that focus is purely on Gamification, which is creating videogame simulations. But technology can include even the most simple activity that students engaged in so it could include where the next button is on the page that takes them to the page of the follows.
spk_0: 13:57
Well, yeah, I was just thinking about how we've recently incorporated the like status far at the at the bottom of, you know, going from page to page within a weekly model to let you know where you are in the process,
spk_1: 14:14
right? And that gets me to their two basic types of technology. One is interactive and one is informational. Interactive is where the student has to initiate something to get the tech to do whatever the tool is designed to do. And an informational is a tech tool that is responsive in the moment. Like a status bar telling that tells the students this is the pager on. These are the pages you've done these air, the pages that you still have to do. That's informational. They don't have to do anything except be on the page. Those two types determined how they're used in the course. So obviously what you're probably asking about is the more interactive how we use techtools to engage students. Right? So there are a couple of mistakes people make. Okay, I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna come off like I'm the expert on this, but I have made many of the mistakes.
spk_0: 15:09
No, but I'm sure that you see a lot of dues and a lot of adults.
spk_1: 15:13
Sure, the 1st 1 is most people, especially when they're new to this. They think of tech ed technology as toys for the course, rather than as tools for the course. And you can't have the student stop with their reading or stop what they're learning to go. Oh, that's a great tool that becomes a distraction. It doesn't matter what the tulips feel organic. It should feel so organic that the student doesn't even realize it's there. And that's, of course, pretty difficult to dio, depending on what you need. So the when choosing tech for the course, you start with the question. What is the purpose of this page in the course? If it's, for example, a reading's page that has the reading assignment for the week and you want to incorporate some sort of tool, it has to a support the readings, either by being some sort of like reading, check interactivity or some sort of video that supplements the reading. You don't wanna have students on a reading page using a tool that is like a simulation of something related to the field. That's a distraction. If it's an assignment page, then the tech tool has to be absolutely necessary for the student to complete the assignment general rule If they can do the assignment without technology. Do not use technology because that means the learning doesn't it is not dependent on the tool, right? The tool becomes a distraction. Otherwise
spk_0: 16:45
one Sorry, I just want to make sure that we're clear that it sounds like you're saying one purpose. Her page?
spk_1: 16:53
Yeah, that's the most basic way of laying out say, like a weekly model in a course. And it comes just from the fact that our brains are still a little more simplistic than we like to imagine. And we really only do one thing at one time. So your page need
spk_0: 17:13
totally debunking the multitasking again and again.
spk_1: 17:17
Multitasking is just not doing anything well, right? As I've been told,
spk_0: 17:21
I'm pretty much true now, at least for me press the same
spk_1: 17:24
time. There are programs who are using really extensive cutting edge technology and seeing great results like, for example, the University of Auburn has ah med program. I think I think the Masters it's part of their med school or nursing school, and they've created a simulation where they no longer need the standardized patients where human beings pretend to be sick and doctors treat them they've created an avatar that you can plug in symptoms and nurses contract those symptoms. That's still so new that there's not a lot of study as to how effective it is for the learning. But it's definitely effective with engagement and interactivity. So it's both moving really quickly in terms of what we're able to do, what some programs are doing. And it's still being pieced together as it goes with putting the motorcycle together as it's rolling down the
spk_0: 18:25
street. Okay, let's go back just for a second to the status bar. How how does that help students?
spk_1: 18:35
The most basic thing that any student experiences from age five and kindergarten to age 50 with the PhD is the sense of accomplishment. Okay, Status Bar is a very subtle reminder of what they've done. Look how much you've done. You've gone three pages,
spk_0: 18:57
and it's probably encouraging. In terms of thistle is all I have left.
spk_1: 19:03
Yes, and there's now ways to actually calculate how much time is saved when courses used a status bar. Because the way have data we have analytics of How Long has to do is on a page, and when they click the next button to move to the next page, and it's not insignificant. The status bar seems to be a motivating factor of I've completed this page. Oh, man, that discussion pages next. I'm just gonna go ahead and do that. They may not have that thought if they don't see the little reminder at the bottom of page. So it definitely has positive effects.
spk_0: 19:37
Yeah, I know that. It motivates me being able to, like, see the progression of my work.
spk_1: 19:43
And I personally love the satisfaction of getting to the end of the week and having that status. Barbie all Phil, I've done it. Everything is done. Absolutely. And then start over the next
spk_0: 19:56
week. So how do we know when we've hit somebody's limit? And e how how do we read? The class is a whole and then even individuals students, you know, particularly I'm thinking about in online courses. How do we know when when it's we've added too much tech or we've put something in that we thought was going to be on effective tool and was going to aid in the learning? What are the signs that it's not
spk_1: 20:26
there? A couple different avenues to to estimate that the first is analytical, right? We can waken see thehe mount of time that students are spending on assignment or an activity. And if the amount of time is Maur, then it should be. Then you can reasonably assume the technology that's part of it is creating a problem because they're spending more time on the tool than they are on getting the assignment done or the the interactivity. And that's something that a lot of the time students won't know, they won't realize they're spending too much time and so they won't be able to voice. Hey, I think I'm spending too much time on this written assignment that involves this interactive graft. Uh, but what you will get is lesser quality of the work, okay? And that comes from the fact that the more time we spend on a tool, any tool with less time, we spend thinking about the content that duel was supposed to be helping us with share. And so the delivery ble is lower than it would be otherwise. At the same time, there are clues that we get from students, which is basically just burn out. Uh, when, Let's say you've got a 10 week course 1st 3 weeks. Half your students are responding to things the moment they become available. They're interacting with one another. That's high engagement, right? You get two weeks before it starts to slow down. One of the reasons can be tools that you've been putting into those weeks. So part of the instructional design process is before the courts launches. We run time estimations, and we run validations of how these tools work. And are they distracting? Are they helpful? If not, we'll recommend This is a beautiful simulation. You can't use it. It's gonna burn your students out. And that is a very, very common mistake. And it's something that a lot of SMEs and faculty who may not have spent years working with this stuff it may not occur to them. They think this is a great way for them to experience a different element of what we're talking about. But sometimes different element means distraction and not actually achieving the objective.
spk_0: 22:45
I often wonder an instructor that is teaching, of course, actually goes in and tries to read all of the readings and the course and see how long it takes them.
spk_1: 22:58
I can't speak for everyone. I have definitely worked with people who literally do that. Uh, and I have definitely worked with people who have not read even one word of the assignments that they're the reading assignment they're choosing. And that is pretty obvious from an I d standpoint. Because just as we align grated assessments and activities with the outcomes of the weak and the objectives of the week, the readings are aligned also. And you can tell when someone's like, Hey, they just found this great resource. I'm gonna put this in without reading it because if they had read it, they would realize it does not help the student get to where they need to get to by the end of the week. That's pretty common. And there's also, uh, still a very common misconception that the Maur instructional materials you have, the better your courses, which is almost the opposite of the truth.
spk_0: 23:55
Yes, this is This is an interesting point that you raise
spk_1: 23:59
right. So and this is something that I think has evolved pretty recently, along with course design itself and learning design. Now that we know how students engage material of different levels. The basic rule would be the lower the level of your course, the Maur readings that should have. The higher the level, the more produce a ble assignments or products it should have. So if going back to my motorcycle maintenance course, if I'm teaching a freshman seminar a motorcycle maintenance, I'm gonna include readings and destruction materials on all the different kinds of motorcycles. But if I'm doing a Masters level course on motorcycle maintenance, I'm going going to include one handbook on the maintenance off Carver Raider. And then the assignment is going going to be not tell me what that said, but build me a car operator. So it's just a different level of rigor. Uh, that's tied out. How help? Deep, deep you're going into the material itself. So think of every level of schooling from kindergarten at the top two. PhD at the bottom is digging deeper into the soil and PhD, you're down to basic magna with the earthworms. You're with the Yeah, you've already mastered work earthworms, right? You're with like fossil fuels. Your dinosaur bones
spk_0: 25:29
is a great visual. So for the subject matter, experts or sneeze, that might be listening. It's not a very pleasant word, it's not. But we love acronyms. We do, and it's It's
spk_1: 25:41
so easy to say it's me, But it also sounds like you're sneezing. But we say If we said subject matter expert, then we're just a loan getting for the purpose of sounding pretentious.
spk_0: 25:51
So let's talk a little for the sneeze out there. About what? There's some common terms that a new subject matter expert might need. Thio have unpacked for them a little bit.
spk_1: 26:03
Yeah, this is good that we're talking about because I am one who I tend to fall down the rabbit hole of jargon without realizing that I'm doing it. So four new SMEs out there a couple things to be aware of. There is a, uh, an acronym L T I, which says we're learning tools. Interoperability?
spk_0: 26:22
What?
spk_1: 26:23
Yeah, that's really what it stands for. Most people say now, learning tools integration because it's basically the same thing. But the actual term is interoperability, and what it is is Ah Wei of incorporating third party tools or learning applications into an existing educational platform. Without your students having to go to that site in order, Thio so embedding like an interactive, um, flashcard tool or or a matching tour? Well, video platform like Like zoom. That is an L T. I. And the purpose of it is to keep your students in the classroom and still be able to use these external tools, which is very important to keep your students focused. It's very easy if you go to zoom and do a video
spk_0: 27:18
and you'll never get them back. You might never get back there. So it may be several days.
spk_1: 27:23
So many things out there.
spk_0: 27:24
Well, unfortunately, the l a mess. You know what I mean? Here, the University of Denver, Of course, we use campus, but I think I think across the board L m s, uh, platforms are getting better and better with bringing in these integrations. And certainly I know that canvas just in the last year. Even there are a lot more integrations that have been ableto make it so students don't have to go away to do, but, you know, to do something.
spk_1: 27:51
Yes, they are getting better. All of them are getting better. And they're getting better so quickly, partly because there is pressure to theirs. Now, online education is spreading so rapidly that new and different needs air rising. And so companies like canvas or mood A ll there put on the spot that they have to create these these lt eyes and sometimes they don't work. Sometimes they're beta versions, and they're like, Here,
spk_0: 28:18
try this. You and I have experienced some of them are better than others, someone McGlinchy but
spk_1: 28:24
they you know, at least they're on it.
spk_0: 28:27
It's a step in the right direction, certainly
spk_1: 28:29
right. And it's fascinating to stop and think a lot of those didn't exist even four years ago. So today's seniors, when they were freshmen, would not have access to some of these tools. So what's it gonna be like four years five years from now? It puts a lot of pressure on someone in my role, because I have to constantly be up to date with what's out there and retooling and retooling. And that also is a level of expectation now for faculty members. Does they have to know how how these tools work? And and so there's now with this growing field of instructional support staff who helped train and help keep everybody up to date, it's It's kind of like teaching in a language that is evolving so quickly that you suddenly can't congregate. You need help. And that's the That's the best metaphor I have right now.
spk_0: 29:21
Yeah, well, I think it's a pretty good metaphor. So, um, so that's lt I m. Wells.
spk_1: 29:29
Another big one is we are, which is open educational resource is, uh, this is something that has been in development for the last few years in response to the fact that textbooks are becoming less and less popular. And I'm using the word popular because I don't really know how else to say it.
spk_0: 29:47
You mean hard copy textbooks or just the idea of like, here is a Texas. Actually, it's
spk_1: 29:55
kind of both Yeah, so the this is going down a different different wormhole. But the textbook industry itself has been kind of on the ropes as on education has expanded because textbooks are pretty limited in their perspective, on depending on, you know, on the subject, but also students. I really don't want to spend a couple $100 on a book when they're spending thousands of thousands of dollars on course. So in order to easier students experience with the content so they don't have to stress over the money. A lot of schools and a lot of organizations are leaving the traditional textbook and going to the open education resource is now what those are are basically miniature textbooks or some tape in some cases courses in some cases, lessons in some cases, units that have been developed by different schools or different organizations, and they want to share it with everybody. So they're freely accessible. Open license. Anyone can access, you simply download it. And if you need to make revisions for your course, you make revisions and it allows you an avenue to find scholarly resource is that your students don't have to pay for, and that's the right. Now it's it that's the most rapidly growing field in learning design and course design. They're so so many options that there are now sites dedicated to just corralling all of these sites so that you can can easier search and it makes things a little more adaptable. And as we were talking about, scaleable textbooks have additions. If you're using the fifth edition, you design a course of the next year, they come out with the sixth all of your readings air worthless. So these oh ers, they don't do that.
spk_0: 31:49
Well, in the mix up of I mean, how often have we had students that purchased the wrong edition?
spk_1: 31:56
Oh, yeah, All the
spk_0: 31:56
time, all the time.
spk_1: 31:58
And there is a consequence that comes from that. And they're in that there is a skill in knowing how to find
spk_0: 32:04
in reading the syllabus just very is a skill I
spk_1: 32:09
have taught students who don't know what a nice being number is or don't know how to use a library. And that's something that is kind of falling by the wayside. And it's something that people in education were trying to hold together with duct tape because those are important skills. Because if there ever is a zombie apocalypse way and we lose the Internet, those open resource is of how to defeat the zombie apocalypse are not gonna be available. You're gonna have to go to the library and look at my eyes be in for how did when a zombie apocalypse. So just in case we're keeping those analog ways alive as best we can
spk_0: 32:45
Well, and I think that that's pretty smart. Todo was particular, particularly in light of your son. Be a problem. Apocalypse example, right? I think that this is a great time for me to ask you. This is my favorite question. Okay, because we're talking about applied learning and, you know, within this podcast, you know, broadly speaking, focus on applied learning. And so, what are three actionable takeaways that, um, that you can you ever give the listeners, uh, will help them tow, elevate their teaching and learning experience? Just three, huh? Just three. Action will take aways that can be implemented to help us elevate our teaching and learning experience.
spk_1: 33:42
Okay, I will stick with the tech resource. Is that says kind of what we focused on? Yes, I would say number one. Rule number one. If the s assignment can be completed without tech, it does not detect. Okay, that's rule number one. Rule number two. If any student asks how to use a tool, get rid of the tool. Really? Yes, Because that means it's not helpful. And number three it is better to have no tech it all than to have the wrong tech
spk_0: 34:16
and confusing tech. Right? Well, I mean, which would be the wrong Yes,
spk_1: 34:20
and that's where I come from with the student question. If your student can't use your tool intuitively than it's too complicated.
spk_0: 34:30
So given the fact that all three of your take ways were really centered around removing tech, being careful with tech um not eliminating, alleviating, not having, you know, tech how how do we bridge that gap with, um, making the courses interactive? Because we're all being charged with engagement and presence and interactivity and how we answer that call without complicating annoying, distracting. Making things worse,
spk_1: 35:12
the quick answer would be You listen to your I d. Okay, because
spk_0: 35:19
Major plug for inspection, they're
spk_1: 35:22
called job security theme. The truth is, a tool is not in and of itself wrong. It's the way it's being used. That is wrong. So a tool on one page I may need to be cut. That same tool on the next page may be perfect, so it goes back to purpose in terms of interactivity. What is the purpose of the interactivity? If it's just to interact with people, then you want a different kind of tool than interacting for the purpose of collaborating on a delivery ble. In that case, you want a tool that's gonna be a little more engaging and even guiding in the process. So it does come down to what is the purpose of a tool? What is the purpose of the page and make sure those purposes lineup
spk_0: 36:09
Now One more. One more question. Do you have? I don't know if you can answer this, but our do. You have, like two or three favorite tools that you feel like often are your kind of go twos that really seem to fit they. They work in kind of organically. They often fill the void.
spk_1: 36:32
I do have one tool that I I personally love, and there are different versions of it. But it's a branching scenario. Or as those of us of a certain generation, call it a choose your own adventure, okay? And it's literally nothing more complicated than, say, a series of slides that ask students to interact with them by selecting Option A or Option B eruption, see, and in what they select produces a corresponding slide. So it's like a very complicated slideshow. The reason is it, uh, effective is it's a simulation and students are reacting in the moment, making key decisions that then produced a result based on those decisions. That is a very high level engagement, and it's so easy to manipulate to each individual course that it's a tool that can be used almost universally. Very few courses, I would say, never need a simulation right of some kind because it's putting critical thinking into action with instantaneous results. Interest? That's my favorite tool. I've seen, as I say, many different versions of it. Some are really complicated. Some are not complicated enough. Some are just power points and students, especially technologically savvy students. They know the difference, and they can. If something looks cheap, then it lessens the value in a lot of people's estimation, so
spk_0: 38:10
cheap in terms of not well thought out and put together
spk_1: 38:14
right, thrown together at the last minute and just poorly designed. The reason it's learning design and not learning build is because we're creating something that students react to on a different level. You're not just looking at four walls. You're looking at a cathedral, right? You're so you have a different reaction to it, And tools like a branching scenario have different experiences for each student, which is why I think it's a very effective tool. It's hard to build
spk_0: 38:46
and you are saying branching lights
spk_1: 38:48
or tree branching tree branching yet. So it's a choose your own adventure.
spk_0: 38:53
Yes, yes, which is a phrase that I often use. I am of that generation, apparently so. That was one. Is there any others?
spk_1: 39:03
There are a lot of video interactivity options. Just say what you want about companies like YouTube, but they have, ah, created a space where every single video can be interacted with, and that is a blessing for courses being able to put reading Cheddar are watching checks or or little props in middle of a video. Uh, that keeps your students engage, keeps them focused, and it keeps things moving. And so videos are always very, very important. Um, and also there's been a rise in ways to produce synchronous activities. And, of course, which has always been The big hurdle for an online course is it has to be a synchronous right. Well, now that we're finally coming up with ways to create synchronous activities where I'm responding in your responding in the same moment and those air still in development. But there are There are some some tools. Zoom is one of them that makes it a lot easier. And those are gonna continue to evolve pretty, pretty rapidly.
spk_0: 40:15
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been very informative.
spk_1: 40:21
Deep dive into nerd. It
spk_0: 40:22
is a deep dive into, uh, tech nerdiness and motorcycle maintenance. Right? You
spk_1: 40:29
know, who would be proud? Both of our parents.
spk_0: 40:32
They are proud. Have a topic you're passionate about as it relates to teaching and learning with an adult population. You can join our conversation by submitting suggestions or interview ideas through a website. University college dot d'you got e D you forward slash elevated. I hope you'll subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and friends who are also passionate about effective teaching and learning strategies. Proposed traditional students. I'm your host, Cindy Craig. Thanks for listening
now
spk_1: 0:02
what used to be like, say, five even six years ago, and online course was an online space you locked in. You did the activity. You turned in your assignment. You went home today we realized that the way that Paige is designed in the way you're interacting changes how you're learning that material. So it's becoming far more nuanced far more quickly. Then I think anyone would have expected.
spk_0: 0:24
I am so excited for the second episode of Elevate Ed Toe Have with me in the studio. Trey Chambers. I'm
spk_1: 0:32
excited to be in the second episode. I'm excited to be the John Adams your podcast.
spk_0: 0:41
Welcome to elevate Ed thistles, a space for conversations around, elevating teaching practices and applied learning for nontraditional students from the Mile high city of Denver, Colorado. This podcast is brought to you by the University of Denver's College for Professional and Continuing Education University College, where adult learners have been pursuing career focused credentials since 1938. So let me tell you a little bit about Trey sitting here with me. Trey is an instructional designer at University College. So one of my colleagues here and in this role he supports faculty and subject matter experts with learning design best practices in the development of their online courses. Before becoming an instructional designer, he was a high school English teacher in the Chicago public school system. From there, he moved into an I D roll with Ever Spring Partners in Chicago and then joined the National Democratic Training Committee as the online course producer. Trays, originally from Georgia and graduated from the University of Georgia with a degree in speech communication before earning his master, Siri, and Education from DePaul University in Chicago. Outside of education, Trey has also been an actor in Nashville as he giggles
spk_1: 2:08
loose definition of active
spk_0: 2:10
on improviser in Chicago and, for a brief time, a motorcycle stunt rider in Germany. And, he adds, his parents are happy that he now works in education.
spk_1: 2:23
Yeah, I don't know why they weren't proud of the motorcycle thing. I thought that was a pretty good accomplishment, considering I had never been on a motorcycle before.
spk_0: 2:29
Oh, I think that personal achievement Absolutely. Yeah, that shows some guts. Um, Bron and oh, yeah, Absolutely. I I agree. Thank
spk_1: 2:39
you for your support. Because my mother was not at all happy
spk_0: 2:43
about. I'm sure I don't know that anything like that would have gone over very well with my parents as well. So now that we have a little of your background, walk me through just the fundamentals of universal design for learning otherwise known as you D L and Impacts you, Dale has on higher ed because you've been in this for a while and s o I imagine you have seen a fair amount of changes as this thing field has really been evolving. I'm imagining rapid pace.
spk_1: 3:18
Yeah, very rapidly. I I'm in a weird position where a lot of instructional designers are. A lot of the older instructional designers were coming more from a training background like a skills design background, whereas I come from teaching, and it's just sort of a fortunate overlap that my master's degree included a focus on universal design for learning you d l on. The reason it did is because I was going to teach on the west Side of Chicago and I needed to learn how to design curriculum for diverse learners. And that's what you d l is it a conceptual framework that designs every element of a course from instructional materials to technology tools so that every student, regardless of their accommodations, has an equal opportunity to learn. And that is not a terribly old practice. I want to say it's the 21st century approach. It may have started in the late nineties, but it's definitely now become the main guiding practice for course to sign.
spk_0: 4:24
And I would imagine that over the years, particularly in higher ed is the landscape has been changing that what diverse learning needs. You know how that gets defined has also been changing a lot.
spk_1: 4:40
Yeah, it did. Today. It's really more about inclusivity in terms of how people learn, which is something that is way. We've learned a lot about it recently, but there's still a lot we don't yet know about the ways that different brains process the same piece of information. But what we do know is that the old traditional lecture style is not efficient for everybody, right? That sort of accepted except apprentice now, which is why instructional materials now have their being designed to be more inclusive so that students can interact with them differently from one another. You and I might take the same course with the same instructor. But you're gonna learn something from a lecture video that I won't. And I'm gonna learn something from an interactive tool that you won't. But the idea is that those two paths will eventually lead us to the same place
spk_0: 5:34
and that that makes sense. And it's also really hard. Or, you know, can be challenging. Certainly too. Meet those needs, um, and understand when you're using digital technologies Well, how to use digital technologies. How to be smart about the use of digital technologies when win is too much of wins Too much, when is too little. When are you meeting the needs of your learner's? I mean, all of these things, like I think you can get pretty overwhelming, especially when we're already living in a pretty noisy world.
spk_1: 6:09
Yes, And those are questions that get asked with every single individual course design and the answers are different every single time because a lot of it comes down to what the purposes For the course I was working on a course that is Maura quantitative, that I'm gonna have different tools, right? If I if I'm working on a course, that's more abstract or conceptual, Then I'm gonna have different tools. The idea is that the tools accomplish the same thing regardless, which is creating an active learning opportunity for students so that they're not just receiving information but that they're using it and they're using it in conjunction with other students or in conjunction with, ah, real life scenario or simulation. So they're practicing as they go, and the roll with the idea is to lead the subject matter expert of the faculty, the course author, whatever you wanna call them to answer the question of what is the purpose of this course? And then once we find that the tool recommendation becomes a lot easier.
spk_0: 7:09
Okay, so talk about that process a little bit, because that to you probably makes makes a lot of sense in terms of all of the fine print that falls falls in there.
spk_1: 7:22
Yeah, I admit I've been doing this or studying this for the last 10 years, so I'm pretty used to the conversations, and I tend to struggle when I'm working with someone who's never had to think in terms of backward design before or objectives based learning what we're used to the old style is I'm gonna teach a course on lawn mower maintenance. My students are going to work with a lawn mower. My students are going to mow the lawn, then my going. Then I'm gonna test them on whether they did that correctly. Right? That's the linear layout, of course. Topic to assessment. Backward design, which is a key component of you. D l eyes literally backward. You have a topic that you're gonna teach. I'm gonna teach motorcycle maintenance and ordered for my students to know motorcycle maintenance. They have to perform this assignment at the end of the course in order to perform this assignment. What instructional materials do they need in order for those instructional materials to be processed? What tools do they need in order for those tools to be processed? What accessibility do they need? Right. So I'm working backward to the beginning of the course, and that's how you lay out what the purpose actually is. Because if you go through the process of I'm going to teach motorcycle maintenance, you might think the purpose is to teach motorcycle maintenance, but it's not. The purpose is to fix a Yamaha road. I don't know anything about motors.
spk_0: 8:52
I know nothing about it, but that's
spk_1: 8:55
the purpose. And why is that the purpose? Well, because that's what this these students are gonna need in their careers and their pathways. And
spk_0: 9:03
so it's applying that knowledge and not not just learning the thing, but learning the thing in such a way to where you directly know what to do with the thing once, once you've learned it,
spk_1: 9:14
yes, beginning with the application of the thing and then figuring out how you get them to the application. And so that's the backward part of backward design. And that gets even more complicated. A higher education level, undergrad and graduate. Because the pathways that students through which students can apply these courses is so narrow that the application itself is hard to distinguish, it depends on the program. It depends on the spot student body. It can change from 2018 to 2022. You may have a different student body that the needs of this professional arena may have changed. This course now becomes irrelevant, that kind of thing. So it's constantly evolving and it's constantly reacting to change is that we can't control
spk_0: 10:01
What are some of the biggest changes you've seen as more courses
spk_1: 10:05
are being brought online? Yeah, they're obviously there are a lot of challenges. The most obvious are engaging students with instructor because they are naturally, unnecessarily separate, physically separate from one another. What we're now realizing in the field is that the learning space that you create in a design changes or rather, impacts how your students are learning the material. So now we used to be like five, even six years ago, and online course was an online space you logged in. You did the activity you turned in your assignment. You went home. Today we realized the way that Paige is designed in the way you're interacting changes, how you're learning that material. So it's becoming far more nuanced far more quickly than I think anyone would have expected. And so what? The Smee, the subject matter expert. Their role is to bring the expertise of the subject, and that's kind of all they need to d'oh! They need to let the you know the instructional designer or or the learning specialist there several different names now across the country let them work with They're content to make it pedagogical e sound for these students right now and then The real complication is, after you've done, then you've created this course. It then has to be scaleable for as long as that subject and that application of that subject is relevant.
spk_0: 11:41
Well, yeah, that's what I was just thinking is then you know, the pace of having to redevelop these courses is going to pick up right now
spk_1: 11:50
has the universal design. The idea is that you build a course that becomes kind of the master model of the course. It can then be duplicated for every section going forward for every student going forward until the course itself becomes irrelevant. That gets trickier. Depending on a with the subject is right. If it's a conceptual subject, it may not last in the same way that a quantitative science engineering subject can last or vice versa, and it is dependent on the students. So if you're working for a smaller university who is just starting their online program, they may be designing it for the students that they've had in their on campus classes. Without acknowledging that they may end up with students from international communities who have different learning styles, approaches and needs. And that's something that does kind of take a lot of guesswork, a lot of strategy and then, uh, the willingness to go back and fix it. If it doesn't work.
spk_0: 13:01
There's a lot, a lot a
spk_1: 13:03
motorcycle stunt, right?
spk_0: 13:05
That's for sure. But you're keeping with the motorcycle analogy I've noticed weaving it in. So that's good. I'd like to hear you talk about best ways that we can use technology to enhance student learning.
spk_1: 13:19
So first, let's define technology because most people think of technology. An online course they're thinking of like an interactive video or something that's a little more game ified. There's a There's an entire field of instructional design that focus is purely on Gamification, which is creating videogame simulations. But technology can include even the most simple activity that students engaged in so it could include where the next button is on the page that takes them to the page of the follows.
spk_0: 13:57
Well, yeah, I was just thinking about how we've recently incorporated the like status far at the at the bottom of, you know, going from page to page within a weekly model to let you know where you are in the process,
spk_1: 14:14
right? And that gets me to their two basic types of technology. One is interactive and one is informational. Interactive is where the student has to initiate something to get the tech to do whatever the tool is designed to do. And an informational is a tech tool that is responsive in the moment. Like a status bar telling that tells the students this is the pager on. These are the pages you've done these air, the pages that you still have to do. That's informational. They don't have to do anything except be on the page. Those two types determined how they're used in the course. So obviously what you're probably asking about is the more interactive how we use techtools to engage students. Right? So there are a couple of mistakes people make. Okay, I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna come off like I'm the expert on this, but I have made many of the mistakes.
spk_0: 15:09
No, but I'm sure that you see a lot of dues and a lot of adults.
spk_1: 15:13
Sure, the 1st 1 is most people, especially when they're new to this. They think of tech ed technology as toys for the course, rather than as tools for the course. And you can't have the student stop with their reading or stop what they're learning to go. Oh, that's a great tool that becomes a distraction. It doesn't matter what the tulips feel organic. It should feel so organic that the student doesn't even realize it's there. And that's, of course, pretty difficult to dio, depending on what you need. So the when choosing tech for the course, you start with the question. What is the purpose of this page in the course? If it's, for example, a reading's page that has the reading assignment for the week and you want to incorporate some sort of tool, it has to a support the readings, either by being some sort of like reading, check interactivity or some sort of video that supplements the reading. You don't wanna have students on a reading page using a tool that is like a simulation of something related to the field. That's a distraction. If it's an assignment page, then the tech tool has to be absolutely necessary for the student to complete the assignment general rule If they can do the assignment without technology. Do not use technology because that means the learning doesn't it is not dependent on the tool, right? The tool becomes a distraction. Otherwise
spk_0: 16:45
one Sorry, I just want to make sure that we're clear that it sounds like you're saying one purpose. Her page?
spk_1: 16:53
Yeah, that's the most basic way of laying out say, like a weekly model in a course. And it comes just from the fact that our brains are still a little more simplistic than we like to imagine. And we really only do one thing at one time. So your page need
spk_0: 17:13
totally debunking the multitasking again and again.
spk_1: 17:17
Multitasking is just not doing anything well, right? As I've been told,
spk_0: 17:21
I'm pretty much true now, at least for me press the same
spk_1: 17:24
time. There are programs who are using really extensive cutting edge technology and seeing great results like, for example, the University of Auburn has ah med program. I think I think the Masters it's part of their med school or nursing school, and they've created a simulation where they no longer need the standardized patients where human beings pretend to be sick and doctors treat them they've created an avatar that you can plug in symptoms and nurses contract those symptoms. That's still so new that there's not a lot of study as to how effective it is for the learning. But it's definitely effective with engagement and interactivity. So it's both moving really quickly in terms of what we're able to do, what some programs are doing. And it's still being pieced together as it goes with putting the motorcycle together as it's rolling down the
spk_0: 18:25
street. Okay, let's go back just for a second to the status bar. How how does that help students?
spk_1: 18:35
The most basic thing that any student experiences from age five and kindergarten to age 50 with the PhD is the sense of accomplishment. Okay, Status Bar is a very subtle reminder of what they've done. Look how much you've done. You've gone three pages,
spk_0: 18:57
and it's probably encouraging. In terms of thistle is all I have left.
spk_1: 19:03
Yes, and there's now ways to actually calculate how much time is saved when courses used a status bar. Because the way have data we have analytics of How Long has to do is on a page, and when they click the next button to move to the next page, and it's not insignificant. The status bar seems to be a motivating factor of I've completed this page. Oh, man, that discussion pages next. I'm just gonna go ahead and do that. They may not have that thought if they don't see the little reminder at the bottom of page. So it definitely has positive effects.
spk_0: 19:37
Yeah, I know that. It motivates me being able to, like, see the progression of my work.
spk_1: 19:43
And I personally love the satisfaction of getting to the end of the week and having that status. Barbie all Phil, I've done it. Everything is done. Absolutely. And then start over the next
spk_0: 19:56
week. So how do we know when we've hit somebody's limit? And e how how do we read? The class is a whole and then even individuals students, you know, particularly I'm thinking about in online courses. How do we know when when it's we've added too much tech or we've put something in that we thought was going to be on effective tool and was going to aid in the learning? What are the signs that it's not
spk_1: 20:26
there? A couple different avenues to to estimate that the first is analytical, right? We can waken see thehe mount of time that students are spending on assignment or an activity. And if the amount of time is Maur, then it should be. Then you can reasonably assume the technology that's part of it is creating a problem because they're spending more time on the tool than they are on getting the assignment done or the the interactivity. And that's something that a lot of the time students won't know, they won't realize they're spending too much time and so they won't be able to voice. Hey, I think I'm spending too much time on this written assignment that involves this interactive graft. Uh, but what you will get is lesser quality of the work, okay? And that comes from the fact that the more time we spend on a tool, any tool with less time, we spend thinking about the content that duel was supposed to be helping us with share. And so the delivery ble is lower than it would be otherwise. At the same time, there are clues that we get from students, which is basically just burn out. Uh, when, Let's say you've got a 10 week course 1st 3 weeks. Half your students are responding to things the moment they become available. They're interacting with one another. That's high engagement, right? You get two weeks before it starts to slow down. One of the reasons can be tools that you've been putting into those weeks. So part of the instructional design process is before the courts launches. We run time estimations, and we run validations of how these tools work. And are they distracting? Are they helpful? If not, we'll recommend This is a beautiful simulation. You can't use it. It's gonna burn your students out. And that is a very, very common mistake. And it's something that a lot of SMEs and faculty who may not have spent years working with this stuff it may not occur to them. They think this is a great way for them to experience a different element of what we're talking about. But sometimes different element means distraction and not actually achieving the objective.
spk_0: 22:45
I often wonder an instructor that is teaching, of course, actually goes in and tries to read all of the readings and the course and see how long it takes them.
spk_1: 22:58
I can't speak for everyone. I have definitely worked with people who literally do that. Uh, and I have definitely worked with people who have not read even one word of the assignments that they're the reading assignment they're choosing. And that is pretty obvious from an I d standpoint. Because just as we align grated assessments and activities with the outcomes of the weak and the objectives of the week, the readings are aligned also. And you can tell when someone's like, Hey, they just found this great resource. I'm gonna put this in without reading it because if they had read it, they would realize it does not help the student get to where they need to get to by the end of the week. That's pretty common. And there's also, uh, still a very common misconception that the Maur instructional materials you have, the better your courses, which is almost the opposite of the truth.
spk_0: 23:55
Yes, this is This is an interesting point that you raise
spk_1: 23:59
right. So and this is something that I think has evolved pretty recently, along with course design itself and learning design. Now that we know how students engage material of different levels. The basic rule would be the lower the level of your course, the Maur readings that should have. The higher the level, the more produce a ble assignments or products it should have. So if going back to my motorcycle maintenance course, if I'm teaching a freshman seminar a motorcycle maintenance, I'm gonna include readings and destruction materials on all the different kinds of motorcycles. But if I'm doing a Masters level course on motorcycle maintenance, I'm going going to include one handbook on the maintenance off Carver Raider. And then the assignment is going going to be not tell me what that said, but build me a car operator. So it's just a different level of rigor. Uh, that's tied out. How help? Deep, deep you're going into the material itself. So think of every level of schooling from kindergarten at the top two. PhD at the bottom is digging deeper into the soil and PhD, you're down to basic magna with the earthworms. You're with the Yeah, you've already mastered work earthworms, right? You're with like fossil fuels. Your dinosaur bones
spk_0: 25:29
is a great visual. So for the subject matter, experts or sneeze, that might be listening. It's not a very pleasant word, it's not. But we love acronyms. We do, and it's It's
spk_1: 25:41
so easy to say it's me, But it also sounds like you're sneezing. But we say If we said subject matter expert, then we're just a loan getting for the purpose of sounding pretentious.
spk_0: 25:51
So let's talk a little for the sneeze out there. About what? There's some common terms that a new subject matter expert might need. Thio have unpacked for them a little bit.
spk_1: 26:03
Yeah, this is good that we're talking about because I am one who I tend to fall down the rabbit hole of jargon without realizing that I'm doing it. So four new SMEs out there a couple things to be aware of. There is a, uh, an acronym L T I, which says we're learning tools. Interoperability?
spk_0: 26:22
What?
spk_1: 26:23
Yeah, that's really what it stands for. Most people say now, learning tools integration because it's basically the same thing. But the actual term is interoperability, and what it is is Ah Wei of incorporating third party tools or learning applications into an existing educational platform. Without your students having to go to that site in order, Thio so embedding like an interactive, um, flashcard tool or or a matching tour? Well, video platform like Like zoom. That is an L T. I. And the purpose of it is to keep your students in the classroom and still be able to use these external tools, which is very important to keep your students focused. It's very easy if you go to zoom and do a video
spk_0: 27:18
and you'll never get them back. You might never get back there. So it may be several days.
spk_1: 27:23
So many things out there.
spk_0: 27:24
Well, unfortunately, the l a mess. You know what I mean? Here, the University of Denver, Of course, we use campus, but I think I think across the board L m s, uh, platforms are getting better and better with bringing in these integrations. And certainly I know that canvas just in the last year. Even there are a lot more integrations that have been ableto make it so students don't have to go away to do, but, you know, to do something.
spk_1: 27:51
Yes, they are getting better. All of them are getting better. And they're getting better so quickly, partly because there is pressure to theirs. Now, online education is spreading so rapidly that new and different needs air rising. And so companies like canvas or mood A ll there put on the spot that they have to create these these lt eyes and sometimes they don't work. Sometimes they're beta versions, and they're like, Here,
spk_0: 28:18
try this. You and I have experienced some of them are better than others, someone McGlinchy but
spk_1: 28:24
they you know, at least they're on it.
spk_0: 28:27
It's a step in the right direction, certainly
spk_1: 28:29
right. And it's fascinating to stop and think a lot of those didn't exist even four years ago. So today's seniors, when they were freshmen, would not have access to some of these tools. So what's it gonna be like four years five years from now? It puts a lot of pressure on someone in my role, because I have to constantly be up to date with what's out there and retooling and retooling. And that also is a level of expectation now for faculty members. Does they have to know how how these tools work? And and so there's now with this growing field of instructional support staff who helped train and help keep everybody up to date, it's It's kind of like teaching in a language that is evolving so quickly that you suddenly can't congregate. You need help. And that's the That's the best metaphor I have right now.
spk_0: 29:21
Yeah, well, I think it's a pretty good metaphor. So, um, so that's lt I m. Wells.
spk_1: 29:29
Another big one is we are, which is open educational resource is, uh, this is something that has been in development for the last few years in response to the fact that textbooks are becoming less and less popular. And I'm using the word popular because I don't really know how else to say it.
spk_0: 29:47
You mean hard copy textbooks or just the idea of like, here is a Texas. Actually, it's
spk_1: 29:55
kind of both Yeah, so the this is going down a different different wormhole. But the textbook industry itself has been kind of on the ropes as on education has expanded because textbooks are pretty limited in their perspective, on depending on, you know, on the subject, but also students. I really don't want to spend a couple $100 on a book when they're spending thousands of thousands of dollars on course. So in order to easier students experience with the content so they don't have to stress over the money. A lot of schools and a lot of organizations are leaving the traditional textbook and going to the open education resource is now what those are are basically miniature textbooks or some tape in some cases courses in some cases, lessons in some cases, units that have been developed by different schools or different organizations, and they want to share it with everybody. So they're freely accessible. Open license. Anyone can access, you simply download it. And if you need to make revisions for your course, you make revisions and it allows you an avenue to find scholarly resource is that your students don't have to pay for, and that's the right. Now it's it that's the most rapidly growing field in learning design and course design. They're so so many options that there are now sites dedicated to just corralling all of these sites so that you can can easier search and it makes things a little more adaptable. And as we were talking about, scaleable textbooks have additions. If you're using the fifth edition, you design a course of the next year, they come out with the sixth all of your readings air worthless. So these oh ers, they don't do that.
spk_0: 31:49
Well, in the mix up of I mean, how often have we had students that purchased the wrong edition?
spk_1: 31:56
Oh, yeah, All the
spk_0: 31:56
time, all the time.
spk_1: 31:58
And there is a consequence that comes from that. And they're in that there is a skill in knowing how to find
spk_0: 32:04
in reading the syllabus just very is a skill I
spk_1: 32:09
have taught students who don't know what a nice being number is or don't know how to use a library. And that's something that is kind of falling by the wayside. And it's something that people in education were trying to hold together with duct tape because those are important skills. Because if there ever is a zombie apocalypse way and we lose the Internet, those open resource is of how to defeat the zombie apocalypse are not gonna be available. You're gonna have to go to the library and look at my eyes be in for how did when a zombie apocalypse. So just in case we're keeping those analog ways alive as best we can
spk_0: 32:45
Well, and I think that that's pretty smart. Todo was particular, particularly in light of your son. Be a problem. Apocalypse example, right? I think that this is a great time for me to ask you. This is my favorite question. Okay, because we're talking about applied learning and, you know, within this podcast, you know, broadly speaking, focus on applied learning. And so, what are three actionable takeaways that, um, that you can you ever give the listeners, uh, will help them tow, elevate their teaching and learning experience? Just three, huh? Just three. Action will take aways that can be implemented to help us elevate our teaching and learning experience.
spk_1: 33:42
Okay, I will stick with the tech resource. Is that says kind of what we focused on? Yes, I would say number one. Rule number one. If the s assignment can be completed without tech, it does not detect. Okay, that's rule number one. Rule number two. If any student asks how to use a tool, get rid of the tool. Really? Yes, Because that means it's not helpful. And number three it is better to have no tech it all than to have the wrong tech
spk_0: 34:16
and confusing tech. Right? Well, I mean, which would be the wrong Yes,
spk_1: 34:20
and that's where I come from with the student question. If your student can't use your tool intuitively than it's too complicated.
spk_0: 34:30
So given the fact that all three of your take ways were really centered around removing tech, being careful with tech um not eliminating, alleviating, not having, you know, tech how how do we bridge that gap with, um, making the courses interactive? Because we're all being charged with engagement and presence and interactivity and how we answer that call without complicating annoying, distracting. Making things worse,
spk_1: 35:12
the quick answer would be You listen to your I d. Okay, because
spk_0: 35:19
Major plug for inspection, they're
spk_1: 35:22
called job security theme. The truth is, a tool is not in and of itself wrong. It's the way it's being used. That is wrong. So a tool on one page I may need to be cut. That same tool on the next page may be perfect, so it goes back to purpose in terms of interactivity. What is the purpose of the interactivity? If it's just to interact with people, then you want a different kind of tool than interacting for the purpose of collaborating on a delivery ble. In that case, you want a tool that's gonna be a little more engaging and even guiding in the process. So it does come down to what is the purpose of a tool? What is the purpose of the page and make sure those purposes lineup
spk_0: 36:09
Now One more. One more question. Do you have? I don't know if you can answer this, but our do. You have, like two or three favorite tools that you feel like often are your kind of go twos that really seem to fit they. They work in kind of organically. They often fill the void.
spk_1: 36:32
I do have one tool that I I personally love, and there are different versions of it. But it's a branching scenario. Or as those of us of a certain generation, call it a choose your own adventure, okay? And it's literally nothing more complicated than, say, a series of slides that ask students to interact with them by selecting Option A or Option B eruption, see, and in what they select produces a corresponding slide. So it's like a very complicated slideshow. The reason is it, uh, effective is it's a simulation and students are reacting in the moment, making key decisions that then produced a result based on those decisions. That is a very high level engagement, and it's so easy to manipulate to each individual course that it's a tool that can be used almost universally. Very few courses, I would say, never need a simulation right of some kind because it's putting critical thinking into action with instantaneous results. Interest? That's my favorite tool. I've seen, as I say, many different versions of it. Some are really complicated. Some are not complicated enough. Some are just power points and students, especially technologically savvy students. They know the difference, and they can. If something looks cheap, then it lessens the value in a lot of people's estimation, so
spk_0: 38:10
cheap in terms of not well thought out and put together
spk_1: 38:14
right, thrown together at the last minute and just poorly designed. The reason it's learning design and not learning build is because we're creating something that students react to on a different level. You're not just looking at four walls. You're looking at a cathedral, right? You're so you have a different reaction to it, And tools like a branching scenario have different experiences for each student, which is why I think it's a very effective tool. It's hard to build
spk_0: 38:46
and you are saying branching lights
spk_1: 38:48
or tree branching tree branching yet. So it's a choose your own adventure.
spk_0: 38:53
Yes, yes, which is a phrase that I often use. I am of that generation, apparently so. That was one. Is there any others?
spk_1: 39:03
There are a lot of video interactivity options. Just say what you want about companies like YouTube, but they have, ah, created a space where every single video can be interacted with, and that is a blessing for courses being able to put reading Cheddar are watching checks or or little props in middle of a video. Uh, that keeps your students engage, keeps them focused, and it keeps things moving. And so videos are always very, very important. Um, and also there's been a rise in ways to produce synchronous activities. And, of course, which has always been The big hurdle for an online course is it has to be a synchronous right. Well, now that we're finally coming up with ways to create synchronous activities where I'm responding in your responding in the same moment and those air still in development. But there are There are some some tools. Zoom is one of them that makes it a lot easier. And those are gonna continue to evolve pretty, pretty rapidly.
spk_0: 40:15
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been very informative.
spk_1: 40:21
Deep dive into nerd. It
spk_0: 40:22
is a deep dive into, uh, tech nerdiness and motorcycle maintenance. Right? You
spk_1: 40:29
know, who would be proud? Both of our parents.
spk_0: 40:32
They are proud. Have a topic you're passionate about as it relates to teaching and learning with an adult population. You can join our conversation by submitting suggestions or interview ideas through a website. University college dot d'you got e D you forward slash elevated. I hope you'll subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and friends who are also passionate about effective teaching and learning strategies. Proposed traditional students. I'm your host, Cindy Craig. Thanks for listening
