WEBVTT
00:01.387 --> 00:08.994
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Eden Project podcast, and in this episode we are going to start a series called God is not a jerk.
00:09.915 --> 00:19.625
[SPEAKER_00]: In this first episode we're going to explore who God is, how he's ordered the world, and how he operates to bring order out of chaos.
00:20.878 --> 00:30.607
[SPEAKER_00]: Given here how God is not in any way shape or form threatened by disorder, but in fact enters into it with us to bring order out of it.
00:31.568 --> 00:32.289
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's jump in.
00:34.138 --> 00:51.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys Nathan Wagnon here coming at you from Eden Project and the next handful of episodes what we're going to do is really look at answering the question I mean to put it bluntly like is got a jerk.
00:52.069 --> 01:00.983
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of times that I hear from people where they say, I know the Bible says that God is love and I know that says he loves the world and all that kind of stuff.
01:01.103 --> 01:06.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I'm reading through the Old Testament or I'm reading through some of these passages and I just...
01:07.272 --> 01:13.296
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a hard time believing that the whole God is love is actually real.
01:13.316 --> 01:30.948
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it seems like that there is one kind of mode of operation in the Old Testament where God's just a jerk, any kind of as a bully and pushing people around, and then a lot of times people are like, but then, you know, Jesus comes along, and He's a super nice guy, which there's all thing there.
01:31.008 --> 01:34.731
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times people see a dichotomy there.
01:36.192 --> 01:49.718
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that we want to do through the Restory podcast is really dive into a biblical hermeneutic that, and all hermeneutic is just a method of studying the Bible of interpretation.
01:50.779 --> 01:57.262
[SPEAKER_00]: We just want to read through a hermeneutic of relationality and a hermeneutic of love.
01:57.802 --> 01:59.163
[SPEAKER_00]: And in order to do that,
01:59.983 --> 02:04.447
[SPEAKER_00]: really diving into, man, what is actually going on in each one of these passages?
02:04.527 --> 02:20.102
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we think about the context that surrounds all of these things so that we can do the best we can to step out of the 21st century western post enlightenment mindset that so many of us have been deeply formed in?
02:21.063 --> 02:23.946
[SPEAKER_00]: and really go back as best we can to the original audience.
02:23.966 --> 02:25.869
[SPEAKER_00]: You go, man, what would this have meant for them?
02:25.969 --> 02:27.110
[SPEAKER_00]: How would they have read this?
02:27.150 --> 02:28.231
[SPEAKER_00]: How would they have seen it?
02:28.932 --> 02:37.362
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in order to help us do that, I've got a friend who, in this regard, is, I mean, probably in all regards, but at least in this regard, is always smarter than I am.
02:37.782 --> 02:41.086
[SPEAKER_00]: And his name is Dr. Scott Booth.
02:41.506 --> 02:41.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Y'all?
02:42.107 --> 02:51.669
[SPEAKER_00]: So man, we're about to dive into some passages of these next six or seven episodes and talk about things like divine violence, divine judgment.
02:52.089 --> 03:05.112
[SPEAKER_00]: The way that God is acting in Genesis 6 and the Flood, where he's wiping out basically the entire earth, we're going to talk about the aftermath of war in the ancient Near East and how
03:07.372 --> 03:22.833
[SPEAKER_00]: what that had to do in regard to humans who had been conquered and so we're going to talk through these things but you also have to understand the as the audience that even when it's gotten out first started talking about this it was like man if we don't actually set the stage for people and we just kind of cherry pick these things
03:23.614 --> 03:24.635
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to kind of miss it.
03:24.995 --> 03:32.760
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've done some of these in previous podcasts, actually with Scott, getting Eric Smith, CalKimer, people like that.
03:33.440 --> 03:47.670
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to take some time just today in this episode, Scott, to talk about, man, if you're going to understand the character of God, like the way that Yahweh shows up in the story from the very beginning.
03:48.470 --> 04:04.238
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if we're going to understand specifically the thing that's driving him to do what he's doing in the midst of a very complicated situation with a rebellion humanity, then what do we need to know from the very beginning?
04:05.299 --> 04:09.621
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we need to understand these subsequent topics we're going to be talking about?
04:10.181 --> 04:11.202
[SPEAKER_00]: Like where do we start from?
04:11.930 --> 04:25.440
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that when we are reading these texts and were confused by what the Lord is doing or just living our lives and were confused about what the Lord is doing or not doing, so often feels like totally.
04:25.480 --> 04:27.722
[SPEAKER_01]: There are these kind of unspoken,
04:29.323 --> 04:35.186
[SPEAKER_01]: very foundational basic assumptions that we have and I think that's where we got to start.
04:35.886 --> 04:47.812
[SPEAKER_01]: So basic foundations and like these assumptions are things like what your life is supposed to be like like what is good and what is bad and like just some very
04:49.183 --> 04:50.504
[SPEAKER_01]: like what's the point of all of this?
04:51.125 --> 05:03.014
[SPEAKER_01]: So some of that's big picture stuff, some of that's foundational stuff, but if we don't agree with the Lord on the premise, we're fighting a kind of fighting downstream where it's like, we're not even on the same river, right?
05:03.034 --> 05:04.235
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're like, where is he?
05:04.295 --> 05:05.456
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, where are you?
05:05.816 --> 05:06.797
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
05:07.598 --> 05:14.043
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the place to begin is the beginning to make sure that we understand
05:15.218 --> 05:20.481
[SPEAKER_01]: who you are and what you're built for and what this place is and what the story is.
05:21.081 --> 05:30.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which, I mean, most people are telling somebody the other day, I was like, man, a great way to describe the journey of life is because none of us asked to be born.
05:30.046 --> 05:34.488
[SPEAKER_00]: None of us said, you know what, I'm going to drop myself into that reality, right?
05:34.528 --> 05:42.332
[SPEAKER_00]: We all woke up into this and really the journey of life is just trying to kind of figure out what we woke up in, you know, this is what we woke up in.
05:42.572 --> 05:45.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only did you wake up in it, but you've been trained by it.
05:45.594 --> 05:45.834
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
05:46.174 --> 06:02.883
[SPEAKER_01]: So your culture, your, like the culture at large around you, whatever that is, and then like your family culture, they all trained you in a way to think about yourself about what success is, what failure is that you've been trained.
06:02.963 --> 06:07.706
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking even for the material we've been working through about the little engine that could.
06:08.046 --> 06:19.751
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was thinking through all the story books that I was read as a kid, none of those story books said, for example, the way out of this is to rely on the Lord.
06:19.892 --> 06:20.492
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
06:21.052 --> 06:21.492
[SPEAKER_01]: None of them.
06:22.333 --> 06:26.875
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what that means is like for so long, I was trained, I think I can't, I think I can't.
06:26.915 --> 06:29.036
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to push harder, I got to work hard, you know what I mean?
06:29.056 --> 06:31.137
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's, that's when it will.
06:32.358 --> 06:33.659
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a more grind.
06:33.719 --> 06:36.681
[SPEAKER_00]: I got radical individual self-reliance.
06:36.721 --> 06:37.022
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
06:37.402 --> 06:40.465
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe then bring in a friend to save the day.
06:40.485 --> 06:44.408
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like at the best or something or rely on some wise.
06:44.649 --> 06:48.912
[SPEAKER_01]: We just have like, you know, a point is we're trained to think a certain way.
06:49.745 --> 07:05.923
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're not critical about it and then we're downstream wondering, well, what's going on, and it feels so disconnected, I feel like a lot of energy goes to trying to resolve a conflict that actually isn't the conflict.
07:06.647 --> 07:07.207
[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely.
07:07.548 --> 07:13.131
[SPEAKER_00]: What we say at Eden Project, and that's the title of this podcast, is called Restory.
07:13.912 --> 07:25.880
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason that it's called that is because so many of us, I mean, all of us live in what's, you know, if you read psychology stuff, they'll call it an autobiographical narrative.
07:26.680 --> 07:30.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Always use the illustration of the Pixar movie inside out.
07:30.462 --> 07:30.842
[SPEAKER_01]: So good.
07:31.002 --> 07:31.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really good.
07:31.683 --> 07:38.346
[SPEAKER_00]: So like all these emotions are personified by these characters in right, Riley is the main character of the little girl.
07:39.767 --> 07:43.128
[SPEAKER_00]: The movie is playing out on the stage of her interior life.
07:43.849 --> 07:43.989
[SPEAKER_00]: And
07:44.781 --> 07:59.930
[SPEAKER_00]: it's telling a story and all every single one of us have that now obviously it doesn't look like islands that's you know clown island or whatever or fun island depressed island but Pixar is trying to illustrate or personify the reality of what all of us live with this
08:00.710 --> 08:02.572
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, they call it an internal working model.
08:02.752 --> 08:07.735
[SPEAKER_00]: That is, it's the story we all live out of, but we very rarely examine.
08:08.436 --> 08:17.181
[SPEAKER_00]: And so because of that, we live in such a way where we run up against the boundary of the story we live in.
08:18.062 --> 08:25.323
[SPEAKER_00]: because the boundary is constantly competing with or cooperating with what's actually real in the world.
08:26.304 --> 08:34.725
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where going back to the beginning to go, hey, the Hebrews were actually talking about something very foundational.
08:35.165 --> 08:40.667
[SPEAKER_00]: That in a very real way was intended to story them in a certain way.
08:41.307 --> 08:42.867
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hey, this is your story.
08:43.647 --> 08:46.628
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, so let's just jump into that, man, like, what was the
08:48.295 --> 08:59.322
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, I think we think in terms of success and failure, and we think in terms of like in the church, we think of righteousness and sin.
09:00.322 --> 09:11.689
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that much, a much more helpful lens is order and disorder, and in particular, disorder is one, I feel viscerally.
09:11.769 --> 09:12.530
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
09:12.910 --> 09:15.552
[SPEAKER_01]: I know when my house is in disorder,
09:16.212 --> 09:32.206
[SPEAKER_01]: and like when my relationships are in disorder and then it helps me to know well then I have in my head a feeling of what order is and the way scripture begins is by saying no you need this is what order is.
09:32.666 --> 09:38.171
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the way things are built to this is when things are correct it looks like this.
09:38.211 --> 09:39.432
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what you're built for.
09:40.223 --> 09:57.851
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, I'd say to start thinking in terms of order and disorder and start even just looking around you rather than saying this is bad or I don't like it say this is disorder and then ask the question like why do I get to order and what is order that's a good place to begin.
09:58.431 --> 10:03.336
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so that whole idea was not unique just to the Hebrew people.
10:04.016 --> 10:07.700
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how did people in the ancient world think about that?
10:07.760 --> 10:11.023
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does order and disorder show up in their stories that they're telling?
10:11.844 --> 10:17.690
[SPEAKER_00]: And what role does that play in the way that they operate as a people in the ancient world?
10:18.150 --> 10:22.614
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in the ancient world, kind of, this is the way they all thought.
10:22.795 --> 10:25.978
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all thinking in terms of, what is order and what is disorder?
10:25.998 --> 10:30.141
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I know what disorder is, I can avoid it.
10:30.542 --> 10:35.006
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I know what order is, I can act in accordance with it, I can do order.
10:35.827 --> 10:36.748
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they just,
10:38.066 --> 10:40.368
[SPEAKER_01]: disagree about what order and disorder are.
10:40.388 --> 10:44.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Now across the different cultures, there's relatively minor disagreements.
10:44.732 --> 10:48.736
[SPEAKER_01]: Scripture had the wildly different take on what order and disorder are.
10:48.756 --> 10:49.957
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me give you like an example.
10:50.898 --> 10:53.901
[SPEAKER_01]: In most of the ancient world, in a lot of ancient cultures,
10:54.581 --> 11:02.045
[SPEAKER_01]: The like the role, the thing that people are for is to bring sacrifices to the gods.
11:02.185 --> 11:06.148
[SPEAKER_01]: The gods like the physical earth, they made it, they like it.
11:06.668 --> 11:10.730
[SPEAKER_01]: They also like beef and lamb and go to wine and stuff.
11:10.750 --> 11:12.011
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're a little bit of an area.
11:12.451 --> 11:14.153
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they like those things.
11:14.674 --> 11:16.996
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they don't want to farm it.
11:17.277 --> 11:20.741
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they make people to do that thing.
11:20.821 --> 11:25.026
[SPEAKER_01]: And as long as people, that's why they always have these temples running and these sacrifices running.
11:25.706 --> 11:29.231
[SPEAKER_01]: And as long as people are keeping that going,
11:30.410 --> 11:31.171
[SPEAKER_01]: the gods are happy.
11:31.731 --> 11:39.376
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for most people, all they got to do is fill their barrel full of enough grain from their farm and ship it off to the temple.
11:39.396 --> 11:41.358
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not like personally involved in it at all.
11:41.398 --> 11:42.959
[SPEAKER_01]: They did, they put it off to the temple.
11:43.039 --> 11:48.122
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the personal involvement is the fact that they harvested it and sent it on, yeah.
11:48.222 --> 11:49.223
[SPEAKER_01]: They did their thing.
11:49.343 --> 11:53.966
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what humanity is for, and then that's what we got to plug into.
11:54.667 --> 11:57.669
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the world I think Israel grew up in.
11:59.350 --> 12:17.020
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of Christians think this way, I'm just about to say the same thing, but we think, like people in ministry think this way, they think, you know, if I just sacrifice more, if I give more, if I keep doing more, then God will be happy with me.
12:17.781 --> 12:19.582
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's basically that paganity.
12:21.703 --> 12:26.766
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at Genesis, there's no sacrificial system in the creation story.
12:29.158 --> 12:31.960
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, in Genesis, like God doesn't need anything.
12:33.140 --> 12:35.802
[SPEAKER_01]: He just made this place because he liked it.
12:35.942 --> 12:36.262
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:36.802 --> 12:37.223
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
12:37.623 --> 12:44.487
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at what he likes to do, like in Genesis 1, if you were just to like say, okay, who is this God?
12:44.987 --> 12:45.767
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he care about?
12:45.827 --> 12:46.588
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he like to do?
12:46.628 --> 12:47.708
[SPEAKER_01]: And how does he do things?
12:48.109 --> 12:50.290
[SPEAKER_01]: If you take a look at that, he shares power.
12:51.680 --> 12:55.189
[SPEAKER_01]: So he told people, hey, this place is still a little bit of a mess.
12:56.131 --> 12:56.713
[SPEAKER_01]: You go do it.
12:56.833 --> 13:00.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very underdeveloped, but tons of raw potential.
13:00.560 --> 13:06.343
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so when he says, the way we know this, he says, he says subdued and have dominion.
13:06.523 --> 13:11.665
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning if it's something to be subdued, that means like it's over a crown or something.
13:11.845 --> 13:12.286
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:12.346 --> 13:13.546
[SPEAKER_00]: It needs attention.
13:14.086 --> 13:15.607
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't just let the plants go.
13:15.627 --> 13:18.909
[SPEAKER_01]: That has to be maintained.
13:19.489 --> 13:25.492
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way that, and actually, the way a genesis one really is, is he's modeling how to order.
13:26.797 --> 13:33.803
[SPEAKER_01]: He's saying, hey, when you're bringing order, when I make you in my image and I tell you, hey, I want you to do what I just did.
13:33.903 --> 13:37.166
[SPEAKER_01]: See how I subdued the seas, did you see how I had dominion?
13:37.586 --> 13:38.387
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it like I did it.
13:39.288 --> 13:41.790
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you look at Genesis, one, look at how slow he moves.
13:42.110 --> 13:43.711
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at how methodical, right?
13:43.751 --> 13:45.253
[SPEAKER_01]: And careful, he goes through.
13:45.873 --> 13:51.938
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in Genesis one, when they're reading it, they're thinking, oh my goodness, magic isn't the solution to my problem.
13:52.842 --> 13:57.023
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to, oh my goodness, I gotta take this one day at a time.
13:57.583 --> 13:58.984
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be a slow process.
13:59.804 --> 14:02.664
[SPEAKER_01]: And the God who likes this place just likes this place.
14:03.005 --> 14:03.845
[SPEAKER_01]: And he feeds us.
14:04.465 --> 14:05.145
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't feed him.
14:05.345 --> 14:05.665
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:06.185 --> 14:10.406
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the only thing he says is, hey, you just need to remember that this is my place.
14:11.627 --> 14:15.068
[SPEAKER_01]: And so your job is to do it like I would.
14:15.108 --> 14:16.488
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your whole thing.
14:16.788 --> 14:17.068
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:17.488 --> 14:20.309
[SPEAKER_00]: So a minute ago, you said, hey, God shares power.
14:21.788 --> 14:31.277
[SPEAKER_00]: My understanding the ancient world is that that's almost or maybe is completely unique in the creation stories that the deity would actually
14:32.400 --> 14:33.880
[SPEAKER_00]: share the power with the humans.
14:34.241 --> 14:34.401
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:34.661 --> 14:36.141
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think that says about God?
14:36.201 --> 14:38.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you think that yaw way?
14:39.282 --> 14:42.403
[SPEAKER_00]: And why do you think that's such a critical piece of the Hebrew story?
14:42.423 --> 14:43.423
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it clearly is.
14:43.603 --> 14:51.946
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a flattening of humanity, but like in a weird way, because the only people that the God's share power with is King.
14:52.006 --> 14:52.266
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
14:53.186 --> 14:55.387
[SPEAKER_01]: God's have each of the gods that have a city.
14:56.267 --> 14:59.408
[SPEAKER_01]: or a little zone, and people brings sacrifices to that city or the zone.
14:59.789 --> 15:01.649
[SPEAKER_01]: And the gods don't run the city directly.
15:02.009 --> 15:07.392
[SPEAKER_01]: They put a like a vice-roy, a vice-roy, and they put someone in charge of the city to run it for them.
15:08.112 --> 15:08.792
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the king.
15:09.473 --> 15:12.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And in Genesis, it looks like he's just done with people.
15:12.974 --> 15:15.875
[SPEAKER_01]: The all people, and interestingly, male and females.
15:16.015 --> 15:17.776
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also the only one that talks like that.
15:17.896 --> 15:20.497
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, hey, this is a male and female role.
15:20.537 --> 15:21.017
[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't.
15:21.518 --> 15:23.278
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got, it's like he made a whole place of
15:25.137 --> 15:25.497
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe.
15:25.517 --> 15:27.119
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it is.
15:27.259 --> 15:28.360
[SPEAKER_00]: It's totally true.
15:28.380 --> 15:36.106
[SPEAKER_01]: You then, then, but this trickles down into so much stuff, like even down into like legal material and property law, like it's so cool.
15:36.407 --> 15:41.251
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically like, like, I've given you all your little kings and queens.
15:41.771 --> 15:43.513
[SPEAKER_01]: This place, go King and King.
15:43.753 --> 15:43.973
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:45.174 --> 15:54.201
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you start there with that view of God looking at people, and it's totally a different thing.
15:54.461 --> 16:01.386
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, we have this view that order doesn't happen until like we've reached the destination.
16:02.627 --> 16:03.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I mean, he sends.
16:03.688 --> 16:06.070
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you start reading Genesis, like it's boring.
16:06.110 --> 16:09.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis one, right, day one day two, and it feels really ordered.
16:11.062 --> 16:13.365
[SPEAKER_01]: it's ordered even while it's a while it's.
16:13.405 --> 16:13.665
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:13.825 --> 16:14.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:14.206 --> 16:20.013
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he says it's good and then he says it's very good keep in mind that place needs to be subdued still.
16:20.814 --> 16:22.256
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not finished.
16:22.276 --> 16:27.162
[SPEAKER_01]: And then another one another example is when he when you got Adam in the garden.
16:28.343 --> 16:28.944
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not good.
16:30.785 --> 16:31.605
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not good.
16:31.625 --> 16:32.506
[SPEAKER_00]: The things incomplete.
16:33.026 --> 16:35.587
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, Adam, it's not good that man is alone.
16:36.207 --> 16:41.209
[SPEAKER_01]: What there he is, he's got access to the tree of life, he's inside the garden with God.
16:41.229 --> 16:45.991
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just hanging out having a great time and God's like, we're not ordered yet.
16:47.248 --> 16:53.850
[SPEAKER_01]: And all of that, like we tend to have this view that until we're there, we're not there.
16:54.650 --> 16:57.610
[SPEAKER_01]: Until we're there, we have to be in disorder.
16:58.591 --> 17:06.152
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Genesis is leaning on is saying, no, no, no, it doesn't all have to be done in order for order to happen.
17:07.233 --> 17:09.213
[SPEAKER_01]: You can have disorder around you.
17:09.393 --> 17:10.534
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got a five-year-old.
17:11.254 --> 17:12.094
[SPEAKER_01]: They're gonna be five.
17:13.337 --> 17:13.597
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:13.777 --> 17:15.259
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to fight bedtime.
17:15.679 --> 17:16.480
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be awful.
17:16.500 --> 17:17.601
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be exhausted.
17:17.981 --> 17:19.502
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to do why am I failing?
17:19.542 --> 17:20.643
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not failing.
17:21.144 --> 17:22.285
[SPEAKER_01]: You're bringing order.
17:23.266 --> 17:26.348
[SPEAKER_01]: An order doesn't happen like an assnap.
17:26.689 --> 17:31.072
[SPEAKER_01]: An order doesn't happen like is in the way that you do it.
17:32.132 --> 17:38.254
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the destination, it's actually in the process, it's a huge element.
17:38.274 --> 17:45.476
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think on this front too, there's a really interesting thing if you look at Genesis 2 and God says, hey, it's not good that man should be alone.
17:46.396 --> 17:51.777
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't go and tell Adam, hey, Adam, it's not good for you to be alone.
17:52.457 --> 17:55.658
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, hey, Adam, it's going to name some stuff.
18:03.604 --> 18:05.306
[SPEAKER_01]: In my own life, I feel like this all the time.
18:05.426 --> 18:06.768
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like he walks me through it.
18:07.789 --> 18:09.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I come to the understanding.
18:10.592 --> 18:13.135
[SPEAKER_01]: But Genesis 2 is saying, yeah, that's how he does things.
18:14.737 --> 18:21.425
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not a mess because God couldn't just come to you and snap his fingers and say, hey, this is what I want you to understand.
18:21.825 --> 18:23.708
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no point in scripture where he ever does that.
18:25.890 --> 18:30.254
[SPEAKER_01]: because he shares power, he's non-terranical with it, right?
18:30.294 --> 18:33.478
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's like, all right, Adam, I know he loves this place.
18:34.359 --> 18:36.080
[SPEAKER_01]: We're actually in a state of not good right now.
18:36.321 --> 18:38.062
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and then he walks him through it.
18:38.102 --> 18:40.985
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, then it gets really interesting, because as soon as Adam,
18:42.026 --> 18:43.207
[SPEAKER_01]: sees his mate.
18:44.287 --> 18:50.130
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, at last, this is what I was just talking with Stephanie Shores.
18:50.551 --> 18:53.052
[SPEAKER_01]: She's working with me on the footnote stuff.
18:53.892 --> 18:56.694
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, like, she was pointing out to, like, he feels it.
18:56.894 --> 18:57.274
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:57.694 --> 19:02.257
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, in everyone when you read this passage, like, you feel like, ah, it's in your bones.
19:02.357 --> 19:02.597
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:02.657 --> 19:03.777
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in his bones.
19:03.798 --> 19:03.978
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:03.998 --> 19:06.339
[SPEAKER_01]: He understands all the way through, right?
19:11.500 --> 19:15.081
[SPEAKER_01]: that full human understanding of the thing.
19:15.742 --> 19:29.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And that process and that time that it took to do that, the failure of finding the right thing, having no idea, then the Lord supplies it and Adam goes, oh my goodness, all of that happened in the garden.
19:29.467 --> 19:29.667
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30.467 --> 19:34.929
[SPEAKER_01]: So now here you are walking around and you're wondering,
19:35.717 --> 19:37.558
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the world in my going through?
19:37.638 --> 19:39.539
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this happening to me?
19:39.639 --> 19:41.480
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you freaking show up?
19:41.600 --> 19:43.180
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this taking so long?
19:44.021 --> 19:46.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying is this is back to that you got an assumption.
19:47.943 --> 19:49.243
[SPEAKER_01]: He's never worth like that.
19:49.263 --> 19:50.584
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what he does it.
19:52.004 --> 19:55.986
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not threatened by the disorder your life.
19:56.066 --> 20:04.170
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, also you are image bearers and you don't have to be threatened by the disorder in your life.
20:06.052 --> 20:09.534
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a weird thought, right?
20:09.834 --> 20:11.194
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what we're bill full of.
20:11.215 --> 20:13.976
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're billed to be agents of order.
20:15.677 --> 20:19.538
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so when you look around like, Lord, what do we, this is this is this is a train wreck.
20:19.979 --> 20:21.740
[SPEAKER_01]: Come save us, come save us.
20:22.080 --> 20:22.460
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like,
20:23.576 --> 20:28.178
[SPEAKER_01]: I did, I made you go order, go do your thing.
20:28.818 --> 20:29.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Like order this thing.
20:30.039 --> 20:31.199
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, all right, I don't know what to do.
20:31.219 --> 20:32.540
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've seen me order things.
20:33.200 --> 20:36.041
[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, how do I order my five year old who won't, right?
20:36.462 --> 20:38.422
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've watched me order you.
20:39.363 --> 20:41.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Took me about 10, 15 years to get you here.
20:42.844 --> 20:44.225
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just calm the heck down.
20:44.245 --> 20:46.946
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe be in your place.
20:46.966 --> 20:50.508
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your get is in disorder and how you gonna get them out.
20:51.578 --> 21:19.036
[SPEAKER_01]: don't be threatened by this is what I'm saying like we have these it's like their programs that are running inside our heads that are like determining how we respond to things absolutely or uncritical up these basic things that autobiographical narrative yep yeah it's just running all return here that's running the stuff that your parents taught you or your grandparents or at an all the way to raise you your siblings doesn't matter you're running the culture subcultures all the things yep that's right
21:19.256 --> 21:21.238
[SPEAKER_01]: you're just constantly running this.
21:21.678 --> 21:24.961
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to say like Lord, what is order?
21:25.681 --> 21:26.262
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
21:26.883 --> 21:29.265
[SPEAKER_01]: And then watch the Lord as he does it.
21:29.445 --> 21:31.406
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is this y'all way?
21:31.967 --> 21:33.508
[SPEAKER_01]: How does he do things?
21:34.169 --> 21:38.612
[SPEAKER_01]: And his basic thing seems to be to empower people to do.
21:38.692 --> 21:40.174
[SPEAKER_00]: He does it all the way to the New Testament.
21:40.234 --> 21:41.595
[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, when is your kingdom coming?
21:41.955 --> 21:42.716
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yeah.
21:43.430 --> 21:49.583
[SPEAKER_01]: get like I'm sending you out into the world and this is how I do it.
21:50.024 --> 21:50.565
[SPEAKER_01]: It's you guys.
21:50.886 --> 21:53.992
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, what I'm hearing you say, if I can just summarize it down.
21:54.879 --> 22:14.948
[SPEAKER_00]: is that the story that so often plays out in the modern mind is I got to get my crap together and arrive somewhere before I'm complete or mature or I've got to have everything squared away before God is good with me or something like that.
22:16.189 --> 22:20.191
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm hearing you say is no actually that idea is more pagan.
22:21.083 --> 22:38.260
[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's just call that what it is that a lot of the baseline assumptions that are born out of our narrative are actually very ancient ideas that played themselves out through the cold worship practices of the pagans.
22:38.900 --> 22:44.446
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, let's just leave that there, like, how much of what we do is actually pagan.
22:45.427 --> 23:09.126
[SPEAKER_00]: But then what I'm hearing you say is no, the actual story, the Hebrew story of Yahweh in Genesis 1 and 2 is one of empowerment of the democratization of the King queen mediator between God and creation to where, like, instead of one person or a king or queen, it's all of humanity, which is,
23:09.940 --> 23:20.430
[SPEAKER_00]: crazy that God is actually seeking to partner with us in a relational kind of way to go, hey, I want to I want to actually be with you.
23:20.730 --> 23:24.213
[SPEAKER_00]: I want us to do this together on this part of this relational part.
23:24.393 --> 23:27.656
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of the way we know that that's true even in the creation story.
23:28.680 --> 23:31.043
[SPEAKER_01]: is when God says, let there be light.
23:31.924 --> 23:41.393
[SPEAKER_01]: In creation stories, I think we've talked about as a previous podcast, they, they, other gods speak creation into existence, but never get the words of creation.
23:42.074 --> 23:47.540
[SPEAKER_01]: Every, because if you get the words of creation, then you would have the magic work.
23:48.080 --> 23:48.300
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:48.840 --> 23:54.042
[SPEAKER_01]: So all these stories, they bring in some God who knows the secret words and can in utter these things.
23:54.082 --> 23:58.043
[SPEAKER_00]: Who has the like, uh, what I call it like the tablet of destiny.
23:58.083 --> 23:59.864
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, but he's able to speak the thing.
24:00.364 --> 24:02.165
[SPEAKER_01]: Can speak the thing, but they never tell you what he says.
24:02.405 --> 24:02.645
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:03.165 --> 24:06.786
[SPEAKER_01]: Because because words have the power.
24:06.806 --> 24:07.247
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:07.267 --> 24:08.547
[SPEAKER_00]: The word has the power.
24:08.567 --> 24:08.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
24:09.127 --> 24:15.809
[SPEAKER_01]: So what becomes really interesting, then, is Genesis one, when he tells you the words, he's saying, listen, go ahead, try it.
24:15.889 --> 24:17.070
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's be like two happens.
24:18.543 --> 24:24.069
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so now you want to bring order, but I can't just say, let there be light, like, what do I do?
24:24.569 --> 24:31.136
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to actually not just know the words of God, but I have to go to the God who speaks them.
24:31.356 --> 24:31.636
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:32.517 --> 24:34.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't just understand what he says.
24:34.499 --> 24:35.260
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go to him.
24:35.400 --> 24:36.261
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be this.
24:36.301 --> 24:37.142
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still the source.
24:37.828 --> 24:41.150
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or is someone on Instagram on my Instagram reel set?
24:41.190 --> 24:44.032
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just flipping through and someone said, you can understand scripture.
24:44.052 --> 24:47.133
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be formed by it, but you're not going to be transformed.
24:47.213 --> 24:48.794
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be formed into a Pharisee.
24:50.475 --> 24:51.916
[SPEAKER_01]: This big chunk of real estate.
24:51.936 --> 24:55.138
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know it's good to turn up here.
24:55.258 --> 24:56.419
[SPEAKER_00]: It's silver back.
24:56.439 --> 24:57.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:59.080 --> 24:59.281
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
24:59.321 --> 25:01.182
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, this is what the text is doing.
25:01.202 --> 25:02.863
[SPEAKER_01]: The relational stuff is not just like,
25:03.901 --> 25:04.321
[SPEAKER_01]: soft.
25:04.361 --> 25:05.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I always just wanted to relate to it.
25:05.762 --> 25:12.166
[SPEAKER_01]: Like actually in creation he's driving you to the one who orders.
25:12.227 --> 25:12.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
25:13.087 --> 25:14.988
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a code that I can run.
25:15.008 --> 25:19.491
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have secrets that I can just I can do all this and I'll go to the Lord when I need.
25:19.591 --> 25:20.632
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work this way.
25:21.230 --> 25:23.511
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to be near and we're built to be near him.
25:23.551 --> 25:24.631
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he puts us in need.
25:24.711 --> 25:25.051
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:25.171 --> 25:25.371
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:25.792 --> 25:28.753
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and then he says, hey, Adam, let's go name some stuff.
25:29.053 --> 25:29.353
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
25:29.693 --> 25:39.436
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, God didn't, I'm still in from a buddy of mine who said one time he's like, dude, if God wanted to fully populate the earth in a millisecond, he'd just go, let there be 9 billion people.
25:39.476 --> 25:40.557
[SPEAKER_00]: How many there are, you know?
25:41.077 --> 25:43.198
[SPEAKER_00]: But instead he goes, no, I want to populate the earth.
25:43.318 --> 25:45.358
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want us to do it together.
25:45.378 --> 25:45.938
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:46.199 --> 25:50.140
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the man in the woman and we're going to have babies, you know?
25:50.400 --> 25:55.222
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or on the other side of it too is like the Lord could have just told me that I'm understand.
25:55.242 --> 25:57.202
[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord could have just told him.
25:57.262 --> 26:00.984
[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord could have just done it without having involved Adam at all.
26:01.064 --> 26:05.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, he walks him through the process and Adam experiences this joy of oh my goodness.
26:05.805 --> 26:07.326
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at this, right?
26:07.366 --> 26:08.166
[SPEAKER_01]: This is amazing.
26:08.226 --> 26:16.769
[SPEAKER_01]: And then here we sit just in our shame that we took so long to understand what the Lord would teach us.
26:17.649 --> 26:18.329
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absurd.
26:18.349 --> 26:18.689
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:18.990 --> 26:23.291
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm saying, okay, it's obviously it's reasonable because that's like what our culture is trying to force.
26:23.511 --> 26:23.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:23.851 --> 26:24.091
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:24.451 --> 26:25.892
[SPEAKER_01]: But biblically, it's absurd.
26:26.012 --> 26:32.114
[SPEAKER_01]: Our expectation should be how the Lord brings order is like, he's slow.
26:33.054 --> 26:35.615
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's careful with people.
26:36.495 --> 26:40.737
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't like to take power from them.
26:41.309 --> 26:45.531
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what I was going to say is he doesn't like to interrupt the dignity of their choice.
26:46.871 --> 26:51.813
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, Hey, I'm I'm actually going to allow you to keep your agency.
26:52.713 --> 26:58.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though it is going to deeply affect me and some pretty painful ways.
26:59.076 --> 27:04.958
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm going to let you and that's and I think man, getting all the way back to where what's driving all of this.
27:04.998 --> 27:07.799
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the type of being who's going to do that
27:08.949 --> 27:11.612
[SPEAKER_00]: is someone who at his core is love.
27:12.412 --> 27:17.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Like love requires that you give the other person their agency.
27:17.839 --> 27:28.621
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, and I think, I don't know if you've been married, I probably, it's like, it's very not you don't know, if you've been in a relationship, there's some point shout out to Margaret.
27:28.681 --> 27:29.121
[SPEAKER_01]: They got it.
27:29.762 --> 27:33.402
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to give this person, let this person be this person.
27:33.783 --> 27:40.844
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a step of where you are actually, like, part of the reason that feels so right is because it is right.
27:41.004 --> 27:41.464
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
27:41.724 --> 27:44.605
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is the way we're built to be.
27:46.078 --> 27:53.123
[SPEAKER_01]: One other thing to point out in these ancient stories, they all have, when the gods set up everything the way they like it, they rest.
27:53.723 --> 27:58.386
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the stories, a lot of times it continues and their rest gets disturbed.
27:59.287 --> 28:00.507
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the gods get upset.
28:00.848 --> 28:05.170
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they want to blow up the planet sometimes, they want to disall kinds of stuff, right?
28:05.711 --> 28:07.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's what gets interesting to Genesis.
28:08.853 --> 28:11.855
[SPEAKER_01]: He rests, but his rest is never disturbed.
28:13.339 --> 28:14.380
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting thing.
28:14.660 --> 28:21.225
[SPEAKER_01]: However, there is kind of one, a little bit of an exception, even in Genesis, but also through all of scripture.
28:21.665 --> 28:26.229
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to get the Lord to stand up and be like, hey, what's going on?
28:26.509 --> 28:28.150
[SPEAKER_01]: It's when hurting people cry out.
28:30.389 --> 28:34.913
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the the very first time that happens, the blood of your brothers, that's right now.
28:35.633 --> 28:40.137
[SPEAKER_01]: Abel's blood is, yeah, I've heard from Solomon Komora is a, it's crying out.
28:40.437 --> 28:41.778
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to go see what's going on.
28:41.998 --> 28:44.801
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I got the crying out is the thing that gets him.
28:45.581 --> 28:46.642
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's an amazing.
28:47.963 --> 28:49.804
[SPEAKER_01]: foundation, right?
28:50.024 --> 28:53.906
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, it's like, was not very bringing up, you know, can't enable.
28:54.326 --> 28:56.807
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to regenerate Genesis two, three, and four together.
28:57.067 --> 28:59.968
[SPEAKER_01]: The Garden of Eden story is like, it continues into able.
29:00.408 --> 29:02.569
[SPEAKER_01]: So what says, well, what gets the Lord moving?
29:02.829 --> 29:04.170
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he respond to?
29:04.190 --> 29:05.990
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what what praxis here?
29:06.531 --> 29:09.492
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's when hurt people cry out.
29:10.032 --> 29:11.756
[SPEAKER_01]: that gets him that's what he's like that's it.
29:12.117 --> 29:18.251
[SPEAKER_01]: I got this isn't and that's a remarkable statement when we're going into a conversation that says isn't God just a jerk.
29:19.270 --> 29:23.992
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we know foundationally, like some of the things we think he's a jerk because he moves slow.
29:24.272 --> 29:24.472
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
29:25.052 --> 29:25.652
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't like that.
29:26.152 --> 29:36.676
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the things he's a jerk is because we think he's stepping in when in a way that makes us upset, but it starts to start to count like when is he stepping in?
29:37.236 --> 29:39.257
[SPEAKER_01]: And why does he say he's stepping in?
29:39.977 --> 29:45.759
[SPEAKER_01]: And the only time he likes to cut the line on that to violate the dignity of the people
29:49.002 --> 30:13.525
[SPEAKER_01]: bring order is when they have become so full of disorder that they're hurting us and now he's like that's it in yeah these are the genesis six and every genesis 11 and yeah all of all of that just just all of that yeah the order of things the order is that you're built for life you're built to walk with the Lord
30:14.763 --> 30:19.587
[SPEAKER_01]: And by order meaning when you're sitting here like, well, how should things be?
30:20.608 --> 30:25.612
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to be that also for other people in the world around you.
30:26.233 --> 30:28.014
[SPEAKER_01]: And but you're broken.
30:28.294 --> 30:29.355
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just broken.
30:29.876 --> 30:35.620
[SPEAKER_01]: But good news, he's come that you can have life and have it abundantly.
30:36.401 --> 30:39.423
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're sitting your wallowing in the death.
30:39.684 --> 30:41.225
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, you're want to feel for that.
30:42.197 --> 30:48.839
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes and rescues Israel from Egypt because they were slaves and they weren't built for that.
30:49.900 --> 30:53.741
[SPEAKER_01]: They were built to be kings and queens, not slaves, like what's happening, yeah.
30:54.001 --> 30:54.882
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's good, man.
30:54.922 --> 30:59.824
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think just to summarize, it's like a, you know, God empowers us.
31:00.284 --> 31:06.166
[SPEAKER_00]: God gives us the dignity of choice, the dignity of agency, where we're able not only to
31:07.000 --> 31:14.649
[SPEAKER_00]: cultivate the ground and and work with Yahweh in the cultivation of Eden, so to speak.
31:15.350 --> 31:27.363
[SPEAKER_00]: But that he gives us the dignity of our agency that can actually push back against him and actually move into exile, where we're made for order, but we revert back to disorder.
31:28.508 --> 31:55.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet in the midst of all of that, too, I think that he's not another thing I heard you say really clearly was like he's not frustrated by our seemingly lack of progress or the tension points that remain in our lives where we're like, man, I should have already figured this out or I should have already, you know, I heard a guy who's in his 60s who just is experiencing some accelerated growth in his life right now.
31:56.685 --> 32:04.848
[SPEAKER_00]: And he told me the other day, he was like, Nathan, I don't think God is at all embarrassed about how long it took for me to get here.
32:05.688 --> 32:07.849
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the ways that I knew that he's really growing.
32:07.949 --> 32:16.152
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like a touch point where I was like, dude, that right there is showing me that you are actually interacting with the God who is real.
32:17.012 --> 32:19.173
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's not frustrated by that.
32:19.613 --> 32:21.993
[SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of a quote, it's one of my favorite quotes.
32:22.034 --> 32:26.235
[SPEAKER_00]: I read it probably well, I read it to people when they feel stuck and they feel like God is late.
32:27.096 --> 32:28.697
[SPEAKER_00]: which is a lot of people.
32:29.518 --> 32:39.867
[SPEAKER_00]: But there was a guy back in the days, and he was George McDonald, who has a bunch of sermons that were written, and this is his sermon on man's difficulty concerning prayer.
32:39.907 --> 32:44.171
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm just going to quote him a little bit at length, because I think it illustrates this really well.
32:45.168 --> 32:59.896
[SPEAKER_00]: It says, God may have to begin far back in our spirit, in regions unknown to us, and do much work that we can be aware of only in the results, in the Gulf of our unknown being.
33:00.676 --> 33:08.701
[SPEAKER_00]: God works behind our consciousness with his holy influence, with his own presence, the only thing for which we most earnestly cry.
33:09.681 --> 33:12.863
[SPEAKER_00]: He may be approaching our consciousness from behind,
33:14.041 --> 33:18.063
[SPEAKER_00]: coming forward through regions of our darkness into our light.
33:18.823 --> 33:26.827
[SPEAKER_00]: And long before we begin to be aware that he is answering our request, he has already answered it and is visiting his child.
33:27.607 --> 33:28.827
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, that's Genesis too.
33:29.028 --> 33:29.308
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:30.228 --> 33:33.009
[SPEAKER_01]: That's he long before Adam knew what was going on.
33:34.430 --> 33:35.130
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already there.
33:35.690 --> 33:36.491
[SPEAKER_01]: He was already there.
33:36.531 --> 33:36.731
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:37.410 --> 33:53.181
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why it's so critical again, the story of, man, we have got to understand that there's so much that we're learning when understood properly from the beginning of the story to set the stage to go, no God is like this.
33:54.242 --> 34:04.049
[SPEAKER_00]: And then understanding that I think will provide, I really saw the lens for us to look at these other passages where, you know, frankly, the wheels are off.
34:04.829 --> 34:23.755
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all kinds of craziness is going on, but even in the middle of that you have a patient God who is teaching and which is discipleship language, he's discipling his people to go, no, no, no, it's like this and at certain points those situations get really gnarly.
34:24.420 --> 34:32.002
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'd say, like, it makes me think about my wife when she gets really frustrated because the house isn't perfect.
34:32.042 --> 34:33.543
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's all right.
34:34.183 --> 34:39.144
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like this, it's constant for her as I watch her.
34:40.204 --> 34:45.566
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels to me like the world in front of her is just perraiding her shame and failure.
34:45.926 --> 34:46.286
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
34:46.686 --> 34:47.907
[SPEAKER_01]: And that she can't get out of it.
34:47.947 --> 34:48.187
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:49.107 --> 34:49.327
[SPEAKER_01]: And...
34:49.803 --> 34:52.085
[SPEAKER_00]: which is coming out of a story that she's living in.
34:52.125 --> 35:00.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's in a spot where she is this platonic idea that until the ideal is hit, your failing does right.
35:00.914 --> 35:07.400
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm trying to say is, if you go description and say, what is order and disorder and how does he bring order?
35:08.518 --> 35:22.727
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not threatened by this order, and he's still, and even his process is orderly, but even his process contains disorder, still, always, all of it still has, it's not yet done.
35:22.747 --> 35:31.773
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've been talking about, I really struggle with this as well, but to drop that idea that until the ideal is hit.
35:33.154 --> 35:51.490
[SPEAKER_01]: that we're failing, that something is wrong, and that I'm unhappy, and I need to work harder, and go back, look at the text, start to rewire yourself to think order and disorder, and how do I bring order in a way that looks like how he's brought order even in my own life?
35:52.437 --> 35:58.322
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, he still works with you and walks with you even when you're a trained raccoon and he liked it the whole time.
35:58.342 --> 36:02.185
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's, it's okay.
36:02.466 --> 36:12.114
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's, but if you have all of that, as how patient and kind, that must be.
36:13.442 --> 36:30.978
[SPEAKER_00]: and empowering, and in a sense of, there's an identity piece to that, that a carpenter who's a sculptor who's sculpting his masterpiece is not going to chuck the thing even though it's fighting him.
36:31.779 --> 36:34.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's like, no, this is my masterpiece.
36:35.342 --> 36:41.166
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you see the very similar kind of posture by God with his people.
36:41.446 --> 36:51.632
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you start seeing God as a jerk, you're in the middle of the story that is this person, this is how he does things, right?
36:51.652 --> 36:53.593
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is the foundation.
36:53.633 --> 36:57.555
[SPEAKER_01]: The foundation is what you're seeing in Genesis 1, 2, 3, 4.
36:58.236 --> 37:00.357
[SPEAKER_01]: You're learning who he is and how he does things.
37:01.380 --> 37:22.483
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will ring when you really say it, it will ring super true, like, oh my goodness, and then it gives you even for the passages that we're going to discuss later that you don't quite understand what he's doing, you'll realize that those passages are so we're using you don't understand what he's doing, it's not because the passages are hard as because you.
37:24.130 --> 37:38.815
[SPEAKER_01]: you don't like the way he's doing it you just you're not there but you got to remember the things you know remember right even as you're struggling with those passages so good brother so good man well dude I'm super grateful for you man.
37:39.135 --> 37:42.856
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm uh it feels like every time we talk I'll learn something new from you.
37:43.036 --> 37:44.756
[SPEAKER_00]: So so sweet.
37:44.776 --> 37:45.196
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, dude
37:47.838 --> 37:48.620
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it man.
37:48.900 --> 37:51.063
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, just a sweet silver back.
37:51.083 --> 37:55.549
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to tell him people there'd be informed into ferris.
37:55.950 --> 37:57.512
[SPEAKER_01]: I really did show up on my Instagram.
37:57.552 --> 37:58.854
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure it did.
37:58.874 --> 38:01.197
[SPEAKER_00]: That one was getting that was minutes making its way around.
38:02.182 --> 38:03.924
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Scott, thanks for your time today, man.
38:04.165 --> 38:05.086
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, stay with us.
38:05.186 --> 38:10.613
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just, again, this is a little bit longer, foundational one, but we're gonna start tackling some of these passages.
38:10.814 --> 38:16.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Just hopefully as an audience where you can go, hey, I'm getting a clearer picture of the real story.
38:17.903 --> 38:19.924
[SPEAKER_00]: of the one who we at least had eaten project.
38:19.944 --> 38:25.687
[SPEAKER_00]: We call God actual like the real God and the one who blasts past your boundaries and reforms you.
38:26.427 --> 38:37.852
[SPEAKER_00]: All in service of as we're restored through counter narratives through the real story pressing up against the narratives that we've so long lived in that we're discovering that God is better than we believed in to be.
38:38.713 --> 38:40.874
[SPEAKER_00]: And we pray that that's a reality for you too.
38:41.054 --> 38:43.035
[SPEAKER_00]: So until next time, PUS
38:44.484 --> 38:46.647
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Eat and Project Podcast.
38:47.167 --> 38:55.598
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, then hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, and you can always go explore everything we're doing at the Eat and Project.com.
00:01.387 --> 00:08.994
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Eden Project podcast, and in this episode we are going to start a series called God is not a jerk.
00:09.915 --> 00:19.625
[SPEAKER_00]: In this first episode we're going to explore who God is, how he's ordered the world, and how he operates to bring order out of chaos.
00:20.878 --> 00:30.607
[SPEAKER_00]: Given here how God is not in any way shape or form threatened by disorder, but in fact enters into it with us to bring order out of it.
00:31.568 --> 00:32.289
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's jump in.
00:34.138 --> 00:51.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys Nathan Wagnon here coming at you from Eden Project and the next handful of episodes what we're going to do is really look at answering the question I mean to put it bluntly like is got a jerk.
00:52.069 --> 01:00.983
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of times that I hear from people where they say, I know the Bible says that God is love and I know that says he loves the world and all that kind of stuff.
01:01.103 --> 01:06.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I'm reading through the Old Testament or I'm reading through some of these passages and I just...
01:07.272 --> 01:13.296
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having a hard time believing that the whole God is love is actually real.
01:13.316 --> 01:30.948
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it seems like that there is one kind of mode of operation in the Old Testament where God's just a jerk, any kind of as a bully and pushing people around, and then a lot of times people are like, but then, you know, Jesus comes along, and He's a super nice guy, which there's all thing there.
01:31.008 --> 01:34.731
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times people see a dichotomy there.
01:36.192 --> 01:49.718
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things that we want to do through the Restory podcast is really dive into a biblical hermeneutic that, and all hermeneutic is just a method of studying the Bible of interpretation.
01:50.779 --> 01:57.262
[SPEAKER_00]: We just want to read through a hermeneutic of relationality and a hermeneutic of love.
01:57.802 --> 01:59.163
[SPEAKER_00]: And in order to do that,
01:59.983 --> 02:04.447
[SPEAKER_00]: really diving into, man, what is actually going on in each one of these passages?
02:04.527 --> 02:20.102
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we think about the context that surrounds all of these things so that we can do the best we can to step out of the 21st century western post enlightenment mindset that so many of us have been deeply formed in?
02:21.063 --> 02:23.946
[SPEAKER_00]: and really go back as best we can to the original audience.
02:23.966 --> 02:25.869
[SPEAKER_00]: You go, man, what would this have meant for them?
02:25.969 --> 02:27.110
[SPEAKER_00]: How would they have read this?
02:27.150 --> 02:28.231
[SPEAKER_00]: How would they have seen it?
02:28.932 --> 02:37.362
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in order to help us do that, I've got a friend who, in this regard, is, I mean, probably in all regards, but at least in this regard, is always smarter than I am.
02:37.782 --> 02:41.086
[SPEAKER_00]: And his name is Dr. Scott Booth.
02:41.506 --> 02:41.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Y'all?
02:42.107 --> 02:51.669
[SPEAKER_00]: So man, we're about to dive into some passages of these next six or seven episodes and talk about things like divine violence, divine judgment.
02:52.089 --> 03:05.112
[SPEAKER_00]: The way that God is acting in Genesis 6 and the Flood, where he's wiping out basically the entire earth, we're going to talk about the aftermath of war in the ancient Near East and how
03:07.372 --> 03:22.833
[SPEAKER_00]: what that had to do in regard to humans who had been conquered and so we're going to talk through these things but you also have to understand the as the audience that even when it's gotten out first started talking about this it was like man if we don't actually set the stage for people and we just kind of cherry pick these things
03:23.614 --> 03:24.635
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to kind of miss it.
03:24.995 --> 03:32.760
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've done some of these in previous podcasts, actually with Scott, getting Eric Smith, CalKimer, people like that.
03:33.440 --> 03:47.670
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to take some time just today in this episode, Scott, to talk about, man, if you're going to understand the character of God, like the way that Yahweh shows up in the story from the very beginning.
03:48.470 --> 04:04.238
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if we're going to understand specifically the thing that's driving him to do what he's doing in the midst of a very complicated situation with a rebellion humanity, then what do we need to know from the very beginning?
04:05.299 --> 04:09.621
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we need to understand these subsequent topics we're going to be talking about?
04:10.181 --> 04:11.202
[SPEAKER_00]: Like where do we start from?
04:11.930 --> 04:25.440
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that when we are reading these texts and were confused by what the Lord is doing or just living our lives and were confused about what the Lord is doing or not doing, so often feels like totally.
04:25.480 --> 04:27.722
[SPEAKER_01]: There are these kind of unspoken,
04:29.323 --> 04:35.186
[SPEAKER_01]: very foundational basic assumptions that we have and I think that's where we got to start.
04:35.886 --> 04:47.812
[SPEAKER_01]: So basic foundations and like these assumptions are things like what your life is supposed to be like like what is good and what is bad and like just some very
04:49.183 --> 04:50.504
[SPEAKER_01]: like what's the point of all of this?
04:51.125 --> 05:03.014
[SPEAKER_01]: So some of that's big picture stuff, some of that's foundational stuff, but if we don't agree with the Lord on the premise, we're fighting a kind of fighting downstream where it's like, we're not even on the same river, right?
05:03.034 --> 05:04.235
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're like, where is he?
05:04.295 --> 05:05.456
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, where are you?
05:05.816 --> 05:06.797
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.
05:07.598 --> 05:14.043
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the place to begin is the beginning to make sure that we understand
05:15.218 --> 05:20.481
[SPEAKER_01]: who you are and what you're built for and what this place is and what the story is.
05:21.081 --> 05:30.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which, I mean, most people are telling somebody the other day, I was like, man, a great way to describe the journey of life is because none of us asked to be born.
05:30.046 --> 05:34.488
[SPEAKER_00]: None of us said, you know what, I'm going to drop myself into that reality, right?
05:34.528 --> 05:42.332
[SPEAKER_00]: We all woke up into this and really the journey of life is just trying to kind of figure out what we woke up in, you know, this is what we woke up in.
05:42.572 --> 05:45.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only did you wake up in it, but you've been trained by it.
05:45.594 --> 05:45.834
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
05:46.174 --> 06:02.883
[SPEAKER_01]: So your culture, your, like the culture at large around you, whatever that is, and then like your family culture, they all trained you in a way to think about yourself about what success is, what failure is that you've been trained.
06:02.963 --> 06:07.706
[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking even for the material we've been working through about the little engine that could.
06:08.046 --> 06:19.751
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was thinking through all the story books that I was read as a kid, none of those story books said, for example, the way out of this is to rely on the Lord.
06:19.892 --> 06:20.492
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
06:21.052 --> 06:21.492
[SPEAKER_01]: None of them.
06:22.333 --> 06:26.875
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what that means is like for so long, I was trained, I think I can't, I think I can't.
06:26.915 --> 06:29.036
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to push harder, I got to work hard, you know what I mean?
06:29.056 --> 06:31.137
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's, that's when it will.
06:32.358 --> 06:33.659
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a more grind.
06:33.719 --> 06:36.681
[SPEAKER_00]: I got radical individual self-reliance.
06:36.721 --> 06:37.022
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
06:37.402 --> 06:40.465
[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe then bring in a friend to save the day.
06:40.485 --> 06:44.408
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like at the best or something or rely on some wise.
06:44.649 --> 06:48.912
[SPEAKER_01]: We just have like, you know, a point is we're trained to think a certain way.
06:49.745 --> 07:05.923
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're not critical about it and then we're downstream wondering, well, what's going on, and it feels so disconnected, I feel like a lot of energy goes to trying to resolve a conflict that actually isn't the conflict.
07:06.647 --> 07:07.207
[SPEAKER_00]: absolutely.
07:07.548 --> 07:13.131
[SPEAKER_00]: What we say at Eden Project, and that's the title of this podcast, is called Restory.
07:13.912 --> 07:25.880
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason that it's called that is because so many of us, I mean, all of us live in what's, you know, if you read psychology stuff, they'll call it an autobiographical narrative.
07:26.680 --> 07:30.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Always use the illustration of the Pixar movie inside out.
07:30.462 --> 07:30.842
[SPEAKER_01]: So good.
07:31.002 --> 07:31.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really good.
07:31.683 --> 07:38.346
[SPEAKER_00]: So like all these emotions are personified by these characters in right, Riley is the main character of the little girl.
07:39.767 --> 07:43.128
[SPEAKER_00]: The movie is playing out on the stage of her interior life.
07:43.849 --> 07:43.989
[SPEAKER_00]: And
07:44.781 --> 07:59.930
[SPEAKER_00]: it's telling a story and all every single one of us have that now obviously it doesn't look like islands that's you know clown island or whatever or fun island depressed island but Pixar is trying to illustrate or personify the reality of what all of us live with this
08:00.710 --> 08:02.572
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, they call it an internal working model.
08:02.752 --> 08:07.735
[SPEAKER_00]: That is, it's the story we all live out of, but we very rarely examine.
08:08.436 --> 08:17.181
[SPEAKER_00]: And so because of that, we live in such a way where we run up against the boundary of the story we live in.
08:18.062 --> 08:25.323
[SPEAKER_00]: because the boundary is constantly competing with or cooperating with what's actually real in the world.
08:26.304 --> 08:34.725
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where going back to the beginning to go, hey, the Hebrews were actually talking about something very foundational.
08:35.165 --> 08:40.667
[SPEAKER_00]: That in a very real way was intended to story them in a certain way.
08:41.307 --> 08:42.867
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hey, this is your story.
08:43.647 --> 08:46.628
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, so let's just jump into that, man, like, what was the
08:48.295 --> 08:59.322
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, I think we think in terms of success and failure, and we think in terms of like in the church, we think of righteousness and sin.
09:00.322 --> 09:11.689
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that much, a much more helpful lens is order and disorder, and in particular, disorder is one, I feel viscerally.
09:11.769 --> 09:12.530
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
09:12.910 --> 09:15.552
[SPEAKER_01]: I know when my house is in disorder,
09:16.212 --> 09:32.206
[SPEAKER_01]: and like when my relationships are in disorder and then it helps me to know well then I have in my head a feeling of what order is and the way scripture begins is by saying no you need this is what order is.
09:32.666 --> 09:38.171
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the way things are built to this is when things are correct it looks like this.
09:38.211 --> 09:39.432
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what you're built for.
09:40.223 --> 09:57.851
[SPEAKER_01]: So first of all, I'd say to start thinking in terms of order and disorder and start even just looking around you rather than saying this is bad or I don't like it say this is disorder and then ask the question like why do I get to order and what is order that's a good place to begin.
09:58.431 --> 10:03.336
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so that whole idea was not unique just to the Hebrew people.
10:04.016 --> 10:07.700
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how did people in the ancient world think about that?
10:07.760 --> 10:11.023
[SPEAKER_00]: Where does order and disorder show up in their stories that they're telling?
10:11.844 --> 10:17.690
[SPEAKER_00]: And what role does that play in the way that they operate as a people in the ancient world?
10:18.150 --> 10:22.614
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in the ancient world, kind of, this is the way they all thought.
10:22.795 --> 10:25.978
[SPEAKER_01]: They're all thinking in terms of, what is order and what is disorder?
10:25.998 --> 10:30.141
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if I know what disorder is, I can avoid it.
10:30.542 --> 10:35.006
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I know what order is, I can act in accordance with it, I can do order.
10:35.827 --> 10:36.748
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they just,
10:38.066 --> 10:40.368
[SPEAKER_01]: disagree about what order and disorder are.
10:40.388 --> 10:44.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Now across the different cultures, there's relatively minor disagreements.
10:44.732 --> 10:48.736
[SPEAKER_01]: Scripture had the wildly different take on what order and disorder are.
10:48.756 --> 10:49.957
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me give you like an example.
10:50.898 --> 10:53.901
[SPEAKER_01]: In most of the ancient world, in a lot of ancient cultures,
10:54.581 --> 11:02.045
[SPEAKER_01]: The like the role, the thing that people are for is to bring sacrifices to the gods.
11:02.185 --> 11:06.148
[SPEAKER_01]: The gods like the physical earth, they made it, they like it.
11:06.668 --> 11:10.730
[SPEAKER_01]: They also like beef and lamb and go to wine and stuff.
11:10.750 --> 11:12.011
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're a little bit of an area.
11:12.451 --> 11:14.153
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they like those things.
11:14.674 --> 11:16.996
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they don't want to farm it.
11:17.277 --> 11:20.741
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they make people to do that thing.
11:20.821 --> 11:25.026
[SPEAKER_01]: And as long as people, that's why they always have these temples running and these sacrifices running.
11:25.706 --> 11:29.231
[SPEAKER_01]: And as long as people are keeping that going,
11:30.410 --> 11:31.171
[SPEAKER_01]: the gods are happy.
11:31.731 --> 11:39.376
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for most people, all they got to do is fill their barrel full of enough grain from their farm and ship it off to the temple.
11:39.396 --> 11:41.358
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not like personally involved in it at all.
11:41.398 --> 11:42.959
[SPEAKER_01]: They did, they put it off to the temple.
11:43.039 --> 11:48.122
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the personal involvement is the fact that they harvested it and sent it on, yeah.
11:48.222 --> 11:49.223
[SPEAKER_01]: They did their thing.
11:49.343 --> 11:53.966
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what humanity is for, and then that's what we got to plug into.
11:54.667 --> 11:57.669
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the world I think Israel grew up in.
11:59.350 --> 12:17.020
[SPEAKER_01]: a lot of Christians think this way, I'm just about to say the same thing, but we think, like people in ministry think this way, they think, you know, if I just sacrifice more, if I give more, if I keep doing more, then God will be happy with me.
12:17.781 --> 12:19.582
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's basically that paganity.
12:21.703 --> 12:26.766
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at Genesis, there's no sacrificial system in the creation story.
12:29.158 --> 12:31.960
[SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, in Genesis, like God doesn't need anything.
12:33.140 --> 12:35.802
[SPEAKER_01]: He just made this place because he liked it.
12:35.942 --> 12:36.262
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
12:36.802 --> 12:37.223
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
12:37.623 --> 12:44.487
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at what he likes to do, like in Genesis 1, if you were just to like say, okay, who is this God?
12:44.987 --> 12:45.767
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he care about?
12:45.827 --> 12:46.588
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he like to do?
12:46.628 --> 12:47.708
[SPEAKER_01]: And how does he do things?
12:48.109 --> 12:50.290
[SPEAKER_01]: If you take a look at that, he shares power.
12:51.680 --> 12:55.189
[SPEAKER_01]: So he told people, hey, this place is still a little bit of a mess.
12:56.131 --> 12:56.713
[SPEAKER_01]: You go do it.
12:56.833 --> 13:00.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very underdeveloped, but tons of raw potential.
13:00.560 --> 13:06.343
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so when he says, the way we know this, he says, he says subdued and have dominion.
13:06.523 --> 13:11.665
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning if it's something to be subdued, that means like it's over a crown or something.
13:11.845 --> 13:12.286
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:12.346 --> 13:13.546
[SPEAKER_00]: It needs attention.
13:14.086 --> 13:15.607
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't just let the plants go.
13:15.627 --> 13:18.909
[SPEAKER_01]: That has to be maintained.
13:19.489 --> 13:25.492
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way that, and actually, the way a genesis one really is, is he's modeling how to order.
13:26.797 --> 13:33.803
[SPEAKER_01]: He's saying, hey, when you're bringing order, when I make you in my image and I tell you, hey, I want you to do what I just did.
13:33.903 --> 13:37.166
[SPEAKER_01]: See how I subdued the seas, did you see how I had dominion?
13:37.586 --> 13:38.387
[SPEAKER_01]: Do it like I did it.
13:39.288 --> 13:41.790
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you look at Genesis, one, look at how slow he moves.
13:42.110 --> 13:43.711
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at how methodical, right?
13:43.751 --> 13:45.253
[SPEAKER_01]: And careful, he goes through.
13:45.873 --> 13:51.938
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in Genesis one, when they're reading it, they're thinking, oh my goodness, magic isn't the solution to my problem.
13:52.842 --> 13:57.023
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to, oh my goodness, I gotta take this one day at a time.
13:57.583 --> 13:58.984
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be a slow process.
13:59.804 --> 14:02.664
[SPEAKER_01]: And the God who likes this place just likes this place.
14:03.005 --> 14:03.845
[SPEAKER_01]: And he feeds us.
14:04.465 --> 14:05.145
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't feed him.
14:05.345 --> 14:05.665
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:06.185 --> 14:10.406
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the only thing he says is, hey, you just need to remember that this is my place.
14:11.627 --> 14:15.068
[SPEAKER_01]: And so your job is to do it like I would.
14:15.108 --> 14:16.488
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your whole thing.
14:16.788 --> 14:17.068
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:17.488 --> 14:20.309
[SPEAKER_00]: So a minute ago, you said, hey, God shares power.
14:21.788 --> 14:31.277
[SPEAKER_00]: My understanding the ancient world is that that's almost or maybe is completely unique in the creation stories that the deity would actually
14:32.400 --> 14:33.880
[SPEAKER_00]: share the power with the humans.
14:34.241 --> 14:34.401
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:34.661 --> 14:36.141
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think that says about God?
14:36.201 --> 14:38.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you think that yaw way?
14:39.282 --> 14:42.403
[SPEAKER_00]: And why do you think that's such a critical piece of the Hebrew story?
14:42.423 --> 14:43.423
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it clearly is.
14:43.603 --> 14:51.946
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a flattening of humanity, but like in a weird way, because the only people that the God's share power with is King.
14:52.006 --> 14:52.266
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
14:53.186 --> 14:55.387
[SPEAKER_01]: God's have each of the gods that have a city.
14:56.267 --> 14:59.408
[SPEAKER_01]: or a little zone, and people brings sacrifices to that city or the zone.
14:59.789 --> 15:01.649
[SPEAKER_01]: And the gods don't run the city directly.
15:02.009 --> 15:07.392
[SPEAKER_01]: They put a like a vice-roy, a vice-roy, and they put someone in charge of the city to run it for them.
15:08.112 --> 15:08.792
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the king.
15:09.473 --> 15:12.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And in Genesis, it looks like he's just done with people.
15:12.974 --> 15:15.875
[SPEAKER_01]: The all people, and interestingly, male and females.
15:16.015 --> 15:17.776
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also the only one that talks like that.
15:17.896 --> 15:20.497
[SPEAKER_01]: It says, hey, this is a male and female role.
15:20.537 --> 15:21.017
[SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't.
15:21.518 --> 15:23.278
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got, it's like he made a whole place of
15:25.137 --> 15:25.497
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe.
15:25.517 --> 15:27.119
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it is.
15:27.259 --> 15:28.360
[SPEAKER_00]: It's totally true.
15:28.380 --> 15:36.106
[SPEAKER_01]: You then, then, but this trickles down into so much stuff, like even down into like legal material and property law, like it's so cool.
15:36.407 --> 15:41.251
[SPEAKER_01]: It's basically like, like, I've given you all your little kings and queens.
15:41.771 --> 15:43.513
[SPEAKER_01]: This place, go King and King.
15:43.753 --> 15:43.973
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:45.174 --> 15:54.201
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you start there with that view of God looking at people, and it's totally a different thing.
15:54.461 --> 16:01.386
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, we have this view that order doesn't happen until like we've reached the destination.
16:02.627 --> 16:03.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I mean, he sends.
16:03.688 --> 16:06.070
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you start reading Genesis, like it's boring.
16:06.110 --> 16:09.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Genesis one, right, day one day two, and it feels really ordered.
16:11.062 --> 16:13.365
[SPEAKER_01]: it's ordered even while it's a while it's.
16:13.405 --> 16:13.665
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:13.825 --> 16:14.026
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:14.206 --> 16:20.013
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he says it's good and then he says it's very good keep in mind that place needs to be subdued still.
16:20.814 --> 16:22.256
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not finished.
16:22.276 --> 16:27.162
[SPEAKER_01]: And then another one another example is when he when you got Adam in the garden.
16:28.343 --> 16:28.944
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not good.
16:30.785 --> 16:31.605
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not good.
16:31.625 --> 16:32.506
[SPEAKER_00]: The things incomplete.
16:33.026 --> 16:35.587
[SPEAKER_01]: The thing is, Adam, it's not good that man is alone.
16:36.207 --> 16:41.209
[SPEAKER_01]: What there he is, he's got access to the tree of life, he's inside the garden with God.
16:41.229 --> 16:45.991
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just hanging out having a great time and God's like, we're not ordered yet.
16:47.248 --> 16:53.850
[SPEAKER_01]: And all of that, like we tend to have this view that until we're there, we're not there.
16:54.650 --> 16:57.610
[SPEAKER_01]: Until we're there, we have to be in disorder.
16:58.591 --> 17:06.152
[SPEAKER_01]: But what Genesis is leaning on is saying, no, no, no, it doesn't all have to be done in order for order to happen.
17:07.233 --> 17:09.213
[SPEAKER_01]: You can have disorder around you.
17:09.393 --> 17:10.534
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got a five-year-old.
17:11.254 --> 17:12.094
[SPEAKER_01]: They're gonna be five.
17:13.337 --> 17:13.597
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:13.777 --> 17:15.259
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to fight bedtime.
17:15.679 --> 17:16.480
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be awful.
17:16.500 --> 17:17.601
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be exhausted.
17:17.981 --> 17:19.502
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to do why am I failing?
17:19.542 --> 17:20.643
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not failing.
17:21.144 --> 17:22.285
[SPEAKER_01]: You're bringing order.
17:23.266 --> 17:26.348
[SPEAKER_01]: An order doesn't happen like an assnap.
17:26.689 --> 17:31.072
[SPEAKER_01]: An order doesn't happen like is in the way that you do it.
17:32.132 --> 17:38.254
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the destination, it's actually in the process, it's a huge element.
17:38.274 --> 17:45.476
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think on this front too, there's a really interesting thing if you look at Genesis 2 and God says, hey, it's not good that man should be alone.
17:46.396 --> 17:51.777
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't go and tell Adam, hey, Adam, it's not good for you to be alone.
17:52.457 --> 17:55.658
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, hey, Adam, it's going to name some stuff.
18:03.604 --> 18:05.306
[SPEAKER_01]: In my own life, I feel like this all the time.
18:05.426 --> 18:06.768
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like he walks me through it.
18:07.789 --> 18:09.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I come to the understanding.
18:10.592 --> 18:13.135
[SPEAKER_01]: But Genesis 2 is saying, yeah, that's how he does things.
18:14.737 --> 18:21.425
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not a mess because God couldn't just come to you and snap his fingers and say, hey, this is what I want you to understand.
18:21.825 --> 18:23.708
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no point in scripture where he ever does that.
18:25.890 --> 18:30.254
[SPEAKER_01]: because he shares power, he's non-terranical with it, right?
18:30.294 --> 18:33.478
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's like, all right, Adam, I know he loves this place.
18:34.359 --> 18:36.080
[SPEAKER_01]: We're actually in a state of not good right now.
18:36.321 --> 18:38.062
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and then he walks him through it.
18:38.102 --> 18:40.985
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, then it gets really interesting, because as soon as Adam,
18:42.026 --> 18:43.207
[SPEAKER_01]: sees his mate.
18:44.287 --> 18:50.130
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, at last, this is what I was just talking with Stephanie Shores.
18:50.551 --> 18:53.052
[SPEAKER_01]: She's working with me on the footnote stuff.
18:53.892 --> 18:56.694
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, like, she was pointing out to, like, he feels it.
18:56.894 --> 18:57.274
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:57.694 --> 19:02.257
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, in everyone when you read this passage, like, you feel like, ah, it's in your bones.
19:02.357 --> 19:02.597
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:02.657 --> 19:03.777
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in his bones.
19:03.798 --> 19:03.978
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:03.998 --> 19:06.339
[SPEAKER_01]: He understands all the way through, right?
19:11.500 --> 19:15.081
[SPEAKER_01]: that full human understanding of the thing.
19:15.742 --> 19:29.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And that process and that time that it took to do that, the failure of finding the right thing, having no idea, then the Lord supplies it and Adam goes, oh my goodness, all of that happened in the garden.
19:29.467 --> 19:29.667
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30.467 --> 19:34.929
[SPEAKER_01]: So now here you are walking around and you're wondering,
19:35.717 --> 19:37.558
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the world in my going through?
19:37.638 --> 19:39.539
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this happening to me?
19:39.639 --> 19:41.480
[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you freaking show up?
19:41.600 --> 19:43.180
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this taking so long?
19:44.021 --> 19:46.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying is this is back to that you got an assumption.
19:47.943 --> 19:49.243
[SPEAKER_01]: He's never worth like that.
19:49.263 --> 19:50.584
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what he does it.
19:52.004 --> 19:55.986
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not threatened by the disorder your life.
19:56.066 --> 20:04.170
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, also you are image bearers and you don't have to be threatened by the disorder in your life.
20:06.052 --> 20:09.534
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a weird thought, right?
20:09.834 --> 20:11.194
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what we're bill full of.
20:11.215 --> 20:13.976
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're billed to be agents of order.
20:15.677 --> 20:19.538
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so when you look around like, Lord, what do we, this is this is this is a train wreck.
20:19.979 --> 20:21.740
[SPEAKER_01]: Come save us, come save us.
20:22.080 --> 20:22.460
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like,
20:23.576 --> 20:28.178
[SPEAKER_01]: I did, I made you go order, go do your thing.
20:28.818 --> 20:29.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Like order this thing.
20:30.039 --> 20:31.199
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, all right, I don't know what to do.
20:31.219 --> 20:32.540
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've seen me order things.
20:33.200 --> 20:36.041
[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, how do I order my five year old who won't, right?
20:36.462 --> 20:38.422
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've watched me order you.
20:39.363 --> 20:41.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Took me about 10, 15 years to get you here.
20:42.844 --> 20:44.225
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just calm the heck down.
20:44.245 --> 20:46.946
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe be in your place.
20:46.966 --> 20:50.508
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, your get is in disorder and how you gonna get them out.
20:51.578 --> 21:19.036
[SPEAKER_01]: don't be threatened by this is what I'm saying like we have these it's like their programs that are running inside our heads that are like determining how we respond to things absolutely or uncritical up these basic things that autobiographical narrative yep yeah it's just running all return here that's running the stuff that your parents taught you or your grandparents or at an all the way to raise you your siblings doesn't matter you're running the culture subcultures all the things yep that's right
21:19.256 --> 21:21.238
[SPEAKER_01]: you're just constantly running this.
21:21.678 --> 21:24.961
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to say like Lord, what is order?
21:25.681 --> 21:26.262
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
21:26.883 --> 21:29.265
[SPEAKER_01]: And then watch the Lord as he does it.
21:29.445 --> 21:31.406
[SPEAKER_01]: Who is this y'all way?
21:31.967 --> 21:33.508
[SPEAKER_01]: How does he do things?
21:34.169 --> 21:38.612
[SPEAKER_01]: And his basic thing seems to be to empower people to do.
21:38.692 --> 21:40.174
[SPEAKER_00]: He does it all the way to the New Testament.
21:40.234 --> 21:41.595
[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, when is your kingdom coming?
21:41.955 --> 21:42.716
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yeah.
21:43.430 --> 21:49.583
[SPEAKER_01]: get like I'm sending you out into the world and this is how I do it.
21:50.024 --> 21:50.565
[SPEAKER_01]: It's you guys.
21:50.886 --> 21:53.992
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, what I'm hearing you say, if I can just summarize it down.
21:54.879 --> 22:14.948
[SPEAKER_00]: is that the story that so often plays out in the modern mind is I got to get my crap together and arrive somewhere before I'm complete or mature or I've got to have everything squared away before God is good with me or something like that.
22:16.189 --> 22:20.191
[SPEAKER_00]: What I'm hearing you say is no actually that idea is more pagan.
22:21.083 --> 22:38.260
[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's just call that what it is that a lot of the baseline assumptions that are born out of our narrative are actually very ancient ideas that played themselves out through the cold worship practices of the pagans.
22:38.900 --> 22:44.446
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, let's just leave that there, like, how much of what we do is actually pagan.
22:45.427 --> 23:09.126
[SPEAKER_00]: But then what I'm hearing you say is no, the actual story, the Hebrew story of Yahweh in Genesis 1 and 2 is one of empowerment of the democratization of the King queen mediator between God and creation to where, like, instead of one person or a king or queen, it's all of humanity, which is,
23:09.940 --> 23:20.430
[SPEAKER_00]: crazy that God is actually seeking to partner with us in a relational kind of way to go, hey, I want to I want to actually be with you.
23:20.730 --> 23:24.213
[SPEAKER_00]: I want us to do this together on this part of this relational part.
23:24.393 --> 23:27.656
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of the way we know that that's true even in the creation story.
23:28.680 --> 23:31.043
[SPEAKER_01]: is when God says, let there be light.
23:31.924 --> 23:41.393
[SPEAKER_01]: In creation stories, I think we've talked about as a previous podcast, they, they, other gods speak creation into existence, but never get the words of creation.
23:42.074 --> 23:47.540
[SPEAKER_01]: Every, because if you get the words of creation, then you would have the magic work.
23:48.080 --> 23:48.300
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:48.840 --> 23:54.042
[SPEAKER_01]: So all these stories, they bring in some God who knows the secret words and can in utter these things.
23:54.082 --> 23:58.043
[SPEAKER_00]: Who has the like, uh, what I call it like the tablet of destiny.
23:58.083 --> 23:59.864
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, but he's able to speak the thing.
24:00.364 --> 24:02.165
[SPEAKER_01]: Can speak the thing, but they never tell you what he says.
24:02.405 --> 24:02.645
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:03.165 --> 24:06.786
[SPEAKER_01]: Because because words have the power.
24:06.806 --> 24:07.247
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:07.267 --> 24:08.547
[SPEAKER_00]: The word has the power.
24:08.567 --> 24:08.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
24:09.127 --> 24:15.809
[SPEAKER_01]: So what becomes really interesting, then, is Genesis one, when he tells you the words, he's saying, listen, go ahead, try it.
24:15.889 --> 24:17.070
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's be like two happens.
24:18.543 --> 24:24.069
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so now you want to bring order, but I can't just say, let there be light, like, what do I do?
24:24.569 --> 24:31.136
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to actually not just know the words of God, but I have to go to the God who speaks them.
24:31.356 --> 24:31.636
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:32.517 --> 24:34.419
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't just understand what he says.
24:34.499 --> 24:35.260
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go to him.
24:35.400 --> 24:36.261
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to be this.
24:36.301 --> 24:37.142
[SPEAKER_01]: He's still the source.
24:37.828 --> 24:41.150
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or is someone on Instagram on my Instagram reel set?
24:41.190 --> 24:44.032
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just flipping through and someone said, you can understand scripture.
24:44.052 --> 24:47.133
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be formed by it, but you're not going to be transformed.
24:47.213 --> 24:48.794
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to be formed into a Pharisee.
24:50.475 --> 24:51.916
[SPEAKER_01]: This big chunk of real estate.
24:51.936 --> 24:55.138
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know it's good to turn up here.
24:55.258 --> 24:56.419
[SPEAKER_00]: It's silver back.
24:56.439 --> 24:57.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:59.080 --> 24:59.281
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
24:59.321 --> 25:01.182
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, this is what the text is doing.
25:01.202 --> 25:02.863
[SPEAKER_01]: The relational stuff is not just like,
25:03.901 --> 25:04.321
[SPEAKER_01]: soft.
25:04.361 --> 25:05.742
[SPEAKER_01]: I always just wanted to relate to it.
25:05.762 --> 25:12.166
[SPEAKER_01]: Like actually in creation he's driving you to the one who orders.
25:12.227 --> 25:12.527
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
25:13.087 --> 25:14.988
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a code that I can run.
25:15.008 --> 25:19.491
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have secrets that I can just I can do all this and I'll go to the Lord when I need.
25:19.591 --> 25:20.632
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work this way.
25:21.230 --> 25:23.511
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to be near and we're built to be near him.
25:23.551 --> 25:24.631
[SPEAKER_01]: Like he puts us in need.
25:24.711 --> 25:25.051
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:25.171 --> 25:25.371
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:25.792 --> 25:28.753
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and then he says, hey, Adam, let's go name some stuff.
25:29.053 --> 25:29.353
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
25:29.693 --> 25:39.436
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, God didn't, I'm still in from a buddy of mine who said one time he's like, dude, if God wanted to fully populate the earth in a millisecond, he'd just go, let there be 9 billion people.
25:39.476 --> 25:40.557
[SPEAKER_00]: How many there are, you know?
25:41.077 --> 25:43.198
[SPEAKER_00]: But instead he goes, no, I want to populate the earth.
25:43.318 --> 25:45.358
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want us to do it together.
25:45.378 --> 25:45.938
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:46.199 --> 25:50.140
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the man in the woman and we're going to have babies, you know?
25:50.400 --> 25:55.222
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or on the other side of it too is like the Lord could have just told me that I'm understand.
25:55.242 --> 25:57.202
[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord could have just told him.
25:57.262 --> 26:00.984
[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord could have just done it without having involved Adam at all.
26:01.064 --> 26:05.765
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, he walks him through the process and Adam experiences this joy of oh my goodness.
26:05.805 --> 26:07.326
[SPEAKER_01]: Look at this, right?
26:07.366 --> 26:08.166
[SPEAKER_01]: This is amazing.
26:08.226 --> 26:16.769
[SPEAKER_01]: And then here we sit just in our shame that we took so long to understand what the Lord would teach us.
26:17.649 --> 26:18.329
[SPEAKER_01]: It's absurd.
26:18.349 --> 26:18.689
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:18.990 --> 26:23.291
[SPEAKER_01]: What I'm saying, okay, it's obviously it's reasonable because that's like what our culture is trying to force.
26:23.511 --> 26:23.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:23.851 --> 26:24.091
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:24.451 --> 26:25.892
[SPEAKER_01]: But biblically, it's absurd.
26:26.012 --> 26:32.114
[SPEAKER_01]: Our expectation should be how the Lord brings order is like, he's slow.
26:33.054 --> 26:35.615
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's careful with people.
26:36.495 --> 26:40.737
[SPEAKER_01]: And he doesn't like to take power from them.
26:41.309 --> 26:45.531
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what I was going to say is he doesn't like to interrupt the dignity of their choice.
26:46.871 --> 26:51.813
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, Hey, I'm I'm actually going to allow you to keep your agency.
26:52.713 --> 26:58.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though it is going to deeply affect me and some pretty painful ways.
26:59.076 --> 27:04.958
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm going to let you and that's and I think man, getting all the way back to where what's driving all of this.
27:04.998 --> 27:07.799
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the type of being who's going to do that
27:08.949 --> 27:11.612
[SPEAKER_00]: is someone who at his core is love.
27:12.412 --> 27:17.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Like love requires that you give the other person their agency.
27:17.839 --> 27:28.621
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, and I think, I don't know if you've been married, I probably, it's like, it's very not you don't know, if you've been in a relationship, there's some point shout out to Margaret.
27:28.681 --> 27:29.121
[SPEAKER_01]: They got it.
27:29.762 --> 27:33.402
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to give this person, let this person be this person.
27:33.783 --> 27:40.844
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a step of where you are actually, like, part of the reason that feels so right is because it is right.
27:41.004 --> 27:41.464
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
27:41.724 --> 27:44.605
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is the way we're built to be.
27:46.078 --> 27:53.123
[SPEAKER_01]: One other thing to point out in these ancient stories, they all have, when the gods set up everything the way they like it, they rest.
27:53.723 --> 27:58.386
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the stories, a lot of times it continues and their rest gets disturbed.
27:59.287 --> 28:00.507
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the gods get upset.
28:00.848 --> 28:05.170
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they want to blow up the planet sometimes, they want to disall kinds of stuff, right?
28:05.711 --> 28:07.652
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's what gets interesting to Genesis.
28:08.853 --> 28:11.855
[SPEAKER_01]: He rests, but his rest is never disturbed.
28:13.339 --> 28:14.380
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an interesting thing.
28:14.660 --> 28:21.225
[SPEAKER_01]: However, there is kind of one, a little bit of an exception, even in Genesis, but also through all of scripture.
28:21.665 --> 28:26.229
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to get the Lord to stand up and be like, hey, what's going on?
28:26.509 --> 28:28.150
[SPEAKER_01]: It's when hurting people cry out.
28:30.389 --> 28:34.913
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the the very first time that happens, the blood of your brothers, that's right now.
28:35.633 --> 28:40.137
[SPEAKER_01]: Abel's blood is, yeah, I've heard from Solomon Komora is a, it's crying out.
28:40.437 --> 28:41.778
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to go see what's going on.
28:41.998 --> 28:44.801
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I got the crying out is the thing that gets him.
28:45.581 --> 28:46.642
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's an amazing.
28:47.963 --> 28:49.804
[SPEAKER_01]: foundation, right?
28:50.024 --> 28:53.906
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, it's like, was not very bringing up, you know, can't enable.
28:54.326 --> 28:56.807
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to regenerate Genesis two, three, and four together.
28:57.067 --> 28:59.968
[SPEAKER_01]: The Garden of Eden story is like, it continues into able.
29:00.408 --> 29:02.569
[SPEAKER_01]: So what says, well, what gets the Lord moving?
29:02.829 --> 29:04.170
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he respond to?
29:04.190 --> 29:05.990
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what what praxis here?
29:06.531 --> 29:09.492
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's when hurt people cry out.
29:10.032 --> 29:11.756
[SPEAKER_01]: that gets him that's what he's like that's it.
29:12.117 --> 29:18.251
[SPEAKER_01]: I got this isn't and that's a remarkable statement when we're going into a conversation that says isn't God just a jerk.
29:19.270 --> 29:23.992
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we know foundationally, like some of the things we think he's a jerk because he moves slow.
29:24.272 --> 29:24.472
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
29:25.052 --> 29:25.652
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't like that.
29:26.152 --> 29:36.676
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the things he's a jerk is because we think he's stepping in when in a way that makes us upset, but it starts to start to count like when is he stepping in?
29:37.236 --> 29:39.257
[SPEAKER_01]: And why does he say he's stepping in?
29:39.977 --> 29:45.759
[SPEAKER_01]: And the only time he likes to cut the line on that to violate the dignity of the people
29:49.002 --> 30:13.525
[SPEAKER_01]: bring order is when they have become so full of disorder that they're hurting us and now he's like that's it in yeah these are the genesis six and every genesis 11 and yeah all of all of that just just all of that yeah the order of things the order is that you're built for life you're built to walk with the Lord
30:14.763 --> 30:19.587
[SPEAKER_01]: And by order meaning when you're sitting here like, well, how should things be?
30:20.608 --> 30:25.612
[SPEAKER_01]: You're supposed to be that also for other people in the world around you.
30:26.233 --> 30:28.014
[SPEAKER_01]: And but you're broken.
30:28.294 --> 30:29.355
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just broken.
30:29.876 --> 30:35.620
[SPEAKER_01]: But good news, he's come that you can have life and have it abundantly.
30:36.401 --> 30:39.423
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're sitting your wallowing in the death.
30:39.684 --> 30:41.225
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, you're want to feel for that.
30:42.197 --> 30:48.839
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes and rescues Israel from Egypt because they were slaves and they weren't built for that.
30:49.900 --> 30:53.741
[SPEAKER_01]: They were built to be kings and queens, not slaves, like what's happening, yeah.
30:54.001 --> 30:54.882
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's good, man.
30:54.922 --> 30:59.824
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think just to summarize, it's like a, you know, God empowers us.
31:00.284 --> 31:06.166
[SPEAKER_00]: God gives us the dignity of choice, the dignity of agency, where we're able not only to
31:07.000 --> 31:14.649
[SPEAKER_00]: cultivate the ground and and work with Yahweh in the cultivation of Eden, so to speak.
31:15.350 --> 31:27.363
[SPEAKER_00]: But that he gives us the dignity of our agency that can actually push back against him and actually move into exile, where we're made for order, but we revert back to disorder.
31:28.508 --> 31:55.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet in the midst of all of that, too, I think that he's not another thing I heard you say really clearly was like he's not frustrated by our seemingly lack of progress or the tension points that remain in our lives where we're like, man, I should have already figured this out or I should have already, you know, I heard a guy who's in his 60s who just is experiencing some accelerated growth in his life right now.
31:56.685 --> 32:04.848
[SPEAKER_00]: And he told me the other day, he was like, Nathan, I don't think God is at all embarrassed about how long it took for me to get here.
32:05.688 --> 32:07.849
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the ways that I knew that he's really growing.
32:07.949 --> 32:16.152
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like a touch point where I was like, dude, that right there is showing me that you are actually interacting with the God who is real.
32:17.012 --> 32:19.173
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's not frustrated by that.
32:19.613 --> 32:21.993
[SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of a quote, it's one of my favorite quotes.
32:22.034 --> 32:26.235
[SPEAKER_00]: I read it probably well, I read it to people when they feel stuck and they feel like God is late.
32:27.096 --> 32:28.697
[SPEAKER_00]: which is a lot of people.
32:29.518 --> 32:39.867
[SPEAKER_00]: But there was a guy back in the days, and he was George McDonald, who has a bunch of sermons that were written, and this is his sermon on man's difficulty concerning prayer.
32:39.907 --> 32:44.171
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm just going to quote him a little bit at length, because I think it illustrates this really well.
32:45.168 --> 32:59.896
[SPEAKER_00]: It says, God may have to begin far back in our spirit, in regions unknown to us, and do much work that we can be aware of only in the results, in the Gulf of our unknown being.
33:00.676 --> 33:08.701
[SPEAKER_00]: God works behind our consciousness with his holy influence, with his own presence, the only thing for which we most earnestly cry.
33:09.681 --> 33:12.863
[SPEAKER_00]: He may be approaching our consciousness from behind,
33:14.041 --> 33:18.063
[SPEAKER_00]: coming forward through regions of our darkness into our light.
33:18.823 --> 33:26.827
[SPEAKER_00]: And long before we begin to be aware that he is answering our request, he has already answered it and is visiting his child.
33:27.607 --> 33:28.827
[SPEAKER_01]: Man, that's Genesis too.
33:29.028 --> 33:29.308
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:30.228 --> 33:33.009
[SPEAKER_01]: That's he long before Adam knew what was going on.
33:34.430 --> 33:35.130
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already there.
33:35.690 --> 33:36.491
[SPEAKER_01]: He was already there.
33:36.531 --> 33:36.731
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:37.410 --> 33:53.181
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why it's so critical again, the story of, man, we have got to understand that there's so much that we're learning when understood properly from the beginning of the story to set the stage to go, no God is like this.
33:54.242 --> 34:04.049
[SPEAKER_00]: And then understanding that I think will provide, I really saw the lens for us to look at these other passages where, you know, frankly, the wheels are off.
34:04.829 --> 34:23.755
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all kinds of craziness is going on, but even in the middle of that you have a patient God who is teaching and which is discipleship language, he's discipling his people to go, no, no, no, it's like this and at certain points those situations get really gnarly.
34:24.420 --> 34:32.002
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'd say, like, it makes me think about my wife when she gets really frustrated because the house isn't perfect.
34:32.042 --> 34:33.543
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, it's all right.
34:34.183 --> 34:39.144
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like this, it's constant for her as I watch her.
34:40.204 --> 34:45.566
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels to me like the world in front of her is just perraiding her shame and failure.
34:45.926 --> 34:46.286
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
34:46.686 --> 34:47.907
[SPEAKER_01]: And that she can't get out of it.
34:47.947 --> 34:48.187
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:49.107 --> 34:49.327
[SPEAKER_01]: And...
34:49.803 --> 34:52.085
[SPEAKER_00]: which is coming out of a story that she's living in.
34:52.125 --> 35:00.293
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's in a spot where she is this platonic idea that until the ideal is hit, your failing does right.
35:00.914 --> 35:07.400
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm trying to say is, if you go description and say, what is order and disorder and how does he bring order?
35:08.518 --> 35:22.727
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not threatened by this order, and he's still, and even his process is orderly, but even his process contains disorder, still, always, all of it still has, it's not yet done.
35:22.747 --> 35:31.773
[SPEAKER_01]: So we've been talking about, I really struggle with this as well, but to drop that idea that until the ideal is hit.
35:33.154 --> 35:51.490
[SPEAKER_01]: that we're failing, that something is wrong, and that I'm unhappy, and I need to work harder, and go back, look at the text, start to rewire yourself to think order and disorder, and how do I bring order in a way that looks like how he's brought order even in my own life?
35:52.437 --> 35:58.322
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, he still works with you and walks with you even when you're a trained raccoon and he liked it the whole time.
35:58.342 --> 36:02.185
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's, it's okay.
36:02.466 --> 36:12.114
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's, but if you have all of that, as how patient and kind, that must be.
36:13.442 --> 36:30.978
[SPEAKER_00]: and empowering, and in a sense of, there's an identity piece to that, that a carpenter who's a sculptor who's sculpting his masterpiece is not going to chuck the thing even though it's fighting him.
36:31.779 --> 36:34.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's like, no, this is my masterpiece.
36:35.342 --> 36:41.166
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so you see the very similar kind of posture by God with his people.
36:41.446 --> 36:51.632
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you start seeing God as a jerk, you're in the middle of the story that is this person, this is how he does things, right?
36:51.652 --> 36:53.593
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is the foundation.
36:53.633 --> 36:57.555
[SPEAKER_01]: The foundation is what you're seeing in Genesis 1, 2, 3, 4.
36:58.236 --> 37:00.357
[SPEAKER_01]: You're learning who he is and how he does things.
37:01.380 --> 37:22.483
[SPEAKER_01]: And it will ring when you really say it, it will ring super true, like, oh my goodness, and then it gives you even for the passages that we're going to discuss later that you don't quite understand what he's doing, you'll realize that those passages are so we're using you don't understand what he's doing, it's not because the passages are hard as because you.
37:24.130 --> 37:38.815
[SPEAKER_01]: you don't like the way he's doing it you just you're not there but you got to remember the things you know remember right even as you're struggling with those passages so good brother so good man well dude I'm super grateful for you man.
37:39.135 --> 37:42.856
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm uh it feels like every time we talk I'll learn something new from you.
37:43.036 --> 37:44.756
[SPEAKER_00]: So so sweet.
37:44.776 --> 37:45.196
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, dude
37:47.838 --> 37:48.620
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it man.
37:48.900 --> 37:51.063
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, just a sweet silver back.
37:51.083 --> 37:55.549
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to tell him people there'd be informed into ferris.
37:55.950 --> 37:57.512
[SPEAKER_01]: I really did show up on my Instagram.
37:57.552 --> 37:58.854
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure it did.
37:58.874 --> 38:01.197
[SPEAKER_00]: That one was getting that was minutes making its way around.
38:02.182 --> 38:03.924
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Scott, thanks for your time today, man.
38:04.165 --> 38:05.086
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, stay with us.
38:05.186 --> 38:10.613
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just, again, this is a little bit longer, foundational one, but we're gonna start tackling some of these passages.
38:10.814 --> 38:16.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Just hopefully as an audience where you can go, hey, I'm getting a clearer picture of the real story.
38:17.903 --> 38:19.924
[SPEAKER_00]: of the one who we at least had eaten project.
38:19.944 --> 38:25.687
[SPEAKER_00]: We call God actual like the real God and the one who blasts past your boundaries and reforms you.
38:26.427 --> 38:37.852
[SPEAKER_00]: All in service of as we're restored through counter narratives through the real story pressing up against the narratives that we've so long lived in that we're discovering that God is better than we believed in to be.
38:38.713 --> 38:40.874
[SPEAKER_00]: And we pray that that's a reality for you too.
38:41.054 --> 38:43.035
[SPEAKER_00]: So until next time, PUS
38:44.484 --> 38:46.647
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Eat and Project Podcast.
38:47.167 --> 38:55.598
[SPEAKER_00]: If you like what you heard, then hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, and you can always go explore everything we're doing at the Eat and Project.com.
