speaker-0: Welcome to Deeper with Darshanah, where we skip the small talk and dive down into what's raw and real. Pleasure, shame, justice, power, healing, liberation. These essential aspects of our human experience are among my favorite topics to explore. And I'm inviting you to join me. I'm your host, Darshanah Avila, somatic sex and trauma expert and creator of the erotic wholeness method. It is my belief that we are erotic by nature and our erotic nature encompasses so much more than you might realize. Come along as I drop into curious conversations with other passionate pros and sensual seekers and occasionally share musings of my own. Bring your curiosity, your sacred, messy, beautiful humanity and all the parts of yourself and let's go deeper together. When exploring the world of sacred sexuality turned out to be kind of unsavory, Mangala Holland set off on a journey that I don't think she could have imagined. It included, among other things, 10 years of chosen and intentional celibacy. It included demystifying the female orgasm and now going on to have helped thousands of women across the globe get to know their bodies, their pleasure, their power, and yes, their pathway to orgasm. I am so excited for you to hear the conversation that Mangala Holland and I had. So please listen in, hearts open, ears open. This one is full of practical wisdom and inspiration. I know you're gonna love it and I will see you on the other side. Mangala, thank you so much for being with us today on Deeper with Darshana. For everybody listening, welcome back and you're in for a treat because Mangala is somebody who I... have loved being in the reverse role with multiple times, you interviewing me and me getting to have a sense of kind of your broad expertise. And today to go more narrow and deeper and more specific. So thank you for being here.
speaker-1: We get to. Thank you, delighted to be here and super excited for our conversation.
speaker-0: Yeah. So I'm going to offer just a couple little things that you and I have in common for the sake of the audience to know about us. And then we can see which of these, if any, becomes the jumping off point. So we are both two women who had careers in rather masculine normative mainstream industries before we got into sex and intimacy, right? That's a truth. You were in stockbroking, this?
speaker-1: That's right. Yeah, I was an IT trainer for stock brokers in the UK.
speaker-0: there. We had major credit bureaus and dealt with unemployment taxes. Wild! I know, weird world. And then we both had our dance with the world of tantra, particularly more like neo-tantra and saw the shadows and the harm being done in communities that are supposedly about sacred sexuality and spiritual growth. And I know we both have our opinions about those worlds. Knowing that we have that in common are two of the things that have endeared you to be. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, how those pieces of your formative experience led you to where you are now and how, like, kind of how you got to the work that you're doing, which maybe start by giving a little summation of that for folks who don't know you.
speaker-1: Yeah, so yeah, I have been teaching the body of work that I teach for the last 13 years. I've been in this sexuality world for, guess it's coming on to about 17 years now. And yeah, I work with women and vulva owners all over the world, helping them overcome sexual blocks and helping them to find their authentic true power and autonomy and authority and helping them. essentially become orgasmic and fulfilled and sexually confident. And it's what a joy. I always say I've got the best job in the world. And, you know, I remember somebody, wise woman said to me many years ago that no experience is wasted. And, you know, I've been on I feel like I've lived several lifetimes, lifetimes already this life and
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good one.
speaker-1: where I'm at right now, I really see all the threads of all these pieces coming together. You know, I had to really step away from a lot of the stuff that was being taught in the neo-Tantra world and in those communities because of the harm and dogmatic approaches and everything else. But, you know, that's where I did have my first incredible experiences. It's where I discovered the world of cervical orgasms and Yeah, I also picked up a lot of trauma and harm and baggage along the way. But, you know, it's helped shaped who I am and it helped me develop the trajectory of my work over the years of wanting to offer something that was more ethical and with as much safety as possible and take a slower, more nuanced consent based trauma informed approach to this work. So, you know, there's a whole process around that, but also with my corporate. regular people. ⁓
speaker-0: I'm not pausing regular people because you might be listening. We love... I don't know about you, but to me it's more recognition that folks like you and I who have created bodies of work rooted in healing and spiritual growth and personal development, like we still are kind of the fringy ones, right? Like we're minorities.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's it. And I feel like you're living like, it's like my my really straight friends think I'm think I'm really out there and my my more alternative friends think I'm super mainstream. So I feel like I'm in this like Venn diagram and I'm somewhere in the middle of all of this.
speaker-0: No. Which I have to say has impacted my dating life a lot. Stay too wild for the normies. Way not into the like total spiritual bypass camp like, around themselves. So it's an interesting hair.
speaker-1: Perhaps we can touch on that later because I'm in a happy place with that.
speaker-0: You're in a new relationship now.
speaker-1: Yeah, but yeah, what I've really tried to do over the years is to make sure that my body of work, that people find it accessible, that there is a jumping in point that doesn't feel too confronting and I can meet people where they're ready to step into this work because not everybody is ready to dive into a $5,000 week long retreat, throw their clothes off, jump in at the deep end. Yeah, in an effort to go into their sexual healing. I don't believe that that is often that helpful anyway, you know, that I think a more subtle approach is often more beneficial and you need to just take those baby steps. And, you know, that means that I can meet people where they're at. I can work with the regular nine to fiveers and, you know, the people who are stressed out busy mums who've also got businesses or whatever else is going on in lives so I can meet them and their bodies and their nervous systems where they're at.
speaker-0: which is so needed and deserved that all of us deserve to be met where we are to have our nervous systems and bodies and our experiences really matched by the ones who might hold space for us, guide us, teach us who we choose to learn from and grow alongside. And that feels to me like a great jumping off point that you speak about the problem with dogmatic. approaches to pleasure and that that was a part of the experience you had in the neo-tantra world. you know, dogma is present in so many ways. Certainly our dominant cultural scripts around sexuality are highly dogmatic and also very narrow, right? Like penis in vagina, move, move, move, penis gets to have its orgasm. Who cares if the vagina of vulva have her, which we should still be. that we have to continually be correcting that one. Vulva on the outside, vagina on the inside, in case anyone is not clear on that. But I'd love to hear a little bit about how you approach that then. Like, what is problematic with it from your vantage point? And how do you help guide people away from the dogma, like the goal-oriented and catharsis-heavy approaches to things that are more about really being present with where you are?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I think this so much of that stems from my early experiences in the neo-tantra world. You know, it's like I went into that with very pure intentions of spiritual growth and you know, I yeah, and I was told this is the real yoga. This is a real tantra. I had no reason not to believe it. I was pretty naive. That was, you know, but I, I, bought into it and It's like, couldn't believe like we've been taught like you must be you. Your job is to be as feminine as possible and the feminine surrenders. And it was this whole dogmatic masculine feminine put in terms of Shiva and Shakti and that we were embodying these divine archetypes. And what I didn't realize at the time was how dehumanizing that is that we're not. human beings that we're supposed to be playing out these roles of gods and goddesses and that I'm supposed to be being the divine feminine and trying to live up to this ideal thing that doesn't actually exist. And it was so challenging. It didn't fit with me as a feminist. It didn't fit with me as somebody who'd never really like felt feminine as such and didn't... identify as feminine and yeah, this whole thing. was really challenging. And what I found in that community was, and it was very heteronormative. It was quite homophobic. There's a lot of dogma around that. I don't think they would have ever had a trans person walk into that space and stay there because they wouldn't have felt safe. You know, it was so, so many problems with it, but it just, yeah, it left the women feeling like the women had to give all their power away and the men were supposed to make all the decisions and the men were not able to demonstrate and express their feelings. It was just really disconnected.
speaker-0: Wow, that just sounds like such a microcosm of the patriarchal norm. Women hand over your power, men suppress everything real, everybody play a tidy, neat little part. Like, the fuck?
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ⁓ It's, you know, it's so gross looking back and it is a microcosm, I particularly think like where the world is right now and what's blowing up everywhere with everything. It is and it was just it was that the power dynamics was so sticky. So no wonder there was a lot of abuse and manipulation and everything else. And it was essentially taking kind of concepts from David Dada and trying to make it into a whole way of life, which is just not, it's not doable, not realistic. it really, yeah, yeah. It took a lot of unraveling as I stepped out of that, to discernment, because we were taught how we should behave, how we should dress, how we should look like, and what to feel and what to think. So to step out of that and to start to discover what is my truth? What does my body really, what is my body really feeling in this moment? What feels like a yes and what feels like a no? What are the gray areas? It was a huge reclamation of self-discovery and truth and power and it's a road to deeper pleasure.
speaker-0: Yes. Absolutely. mean, because what you're describing, you know, this is the work that I guide my clients in, of how do you discern your yeses and your nos, your desires and your boundaries? What is your authentic expression in any given moment? And so to, I think for many people, you know, I don't necessarily work with a ton of clients who have a background like ours, we were in part of the world, but it is that very same set of missed experiences and underdeveloped capacities then that we get to help people heal around. I had to go through that myself. And I, so you said it's been 13 years or so in this portion, this chapter.
speaker-1: I got out there, yeah, it would be about 11 years since I left and I was already working with clients while I was still in that environment because women were coming to me going that what the teaching is isn't jelling but I still want to have these experiences. You look like you're doing something differently, help. So yeah, and I think what it, you know, it's about conditioning, isn't it? And like, I so willingly jumped into all of that at the time because I was so desperate to unravel the conditioning I had around shame, my sexuality and lack of pleasure and the whole disconnection.
speaker-0: pendulum swings like they're shame shame shamed like free for all and
speaker-1: And what I didn't realize was I was replacing one set of conditioning with another set rather than trying to find my truth. Particularly coming from a stuffy English repressed background. was like seeing all these people who I thought were free and open and expressed and they weren't, they were just putting on a mask.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's a really profoundly important insight you just shared. I, you know, I myself through the lens of that, and I invite those listening to it's like, are there ways where we're just trading one mask for another one dog or another, as opposed to that deep, truly transformational work of finding out who we really are. That that's what it's down to is our authenticity. So I'm aware that Part of your journey and a significant part in linear time at least was 10 years of intentional syllabus.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: I mean, I think, and I don't know about you, I certainly feel that in this industry, people assume I am far sluttier than I actually am in practice. My philosophy is certainly very, very sluttier, in practice, and it goes in waves, I have seasons and cycles where there's different things going on in my outward sexual expression. Certainly for me, the richest part of it has been. this widening of the definition of Eros for me and thus my erotic energy is available. I would love to hear what brought you to that decision and how it has shaped you and made you the amazing practitioner, educator, speaker, teacher that you are because I know that you are. bring stretch gifts.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's a perception that when we're doing this kind of work that, we're swinging from the chandeliers every night and it's, you know, having a wild time and don't get me wrong, I have lived. I have lived and I've, you know, I've done all kinds of stuff and that's great. But once I bounced out of the neo-tantra world, I recognized I needed to clean up some pieces. my sexuality and that was emotionally but also just to really discover. I really went on a very deep nuanced journey with my own self-pleasure and that felt like, yeah I did try and dabble a bit in dating when I lived in Australia and I lived in Australia for five years and I've been back in UK now for six years and yeah it's been a process and I dabbled in dating here and there, but essentially it felt like, I need to be in my own energy and I really need to, I mean, yeah, I really need to do some very deep inner work. And I did some amazing therapy a few years ago and that was just like so phenomenal. I came out of that. It's like, if a relationship happens, great. Ideally what I want is to be in a long-term committed monogamous mature relationship and I'm at a point in my life, I'm 53 now, I'm at a point in my life where I'm not prepared to settle for something else. I'm no longer going to compromise for getting the validation of well least somebody wants to get me in the sack or at least I'm going to have some great sex out of it. Like the trade-off wasn't enough. I'd go to ecstatic dance classes and things like this and be interacting with people and I'd get halfway through the night and go, I'd actually rather be at home reading my book right now. And I'd walk out in the middle of the class and go home and get in bed and read my book and be like, yay, this is exactly what I want to give myself. And so it's like, I am allowed to, it's not about being entitled or princessy or anything like that, but it's just, know myself well enough and I love myself well enough that I ⁓ If someone great comes in who can meet me in that, awesome. But I can give myself the pleasure in the orgasms that I want. I can hold myself in so much of my life. So I'm not looking for someone else to come in and give that to me. I can resource myself in that. And it's just been, yeah, it's been such a powerful journey.
speaker-0: Yes, and I mean, there's just so much wisdom in your transmission right there in describing what that was for you, because if we don't have the ability to discern, do I want to be out on the dance floor or home with my book? Like if that that discernment isn't available to us, how can we reasonably expect to know the ways that we want to be made love to or fucked or? gold or, you know, or the way that we want to shape a partnership with another person if we are seeking to create one newly or if we are in one that is right for some evolution, shall we say. So, you know, that to me, a lot of, of course, I imagine this is on the nose. People come to us for the orgasms, right? They come for something to transform in their sexuality. But the thing is, you often have to work backwards. are more basic levels of discernment, of nexion to your body and your that deep wisdom saying, yes, no, this, that. And you, you not such a big way. And I know you work a lot with midlife women as when I are squarely that I do as well. And this age and stage of life really does lend itself well, huh?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ I'm curious what you have to say about the para-menopause, menopause passage as it relates to these themes.
speaker-1: I think it gives us if we work with it as a an intentional thing as much as we can there's an opportunity here to get really discerning and It is this stripping away of all the things in life that might not be serving us or that we've outgrown or that Just stop. It's like, you know, these clothes don't fit me anymore. It's that kind of feeling and like okay what needs to burn away and Yeah, and pleasure and sexuality is such a key part of that. And to really, I really encourage my clients to really get curious about I think what we get stuck in, particularly for the clients I've worked with who are in long term relationships. And I work with a lot of people who've been with their partners for 20, 30, even 40 years. And it gets into this very mechanical routine. I do this, then you do that. And yeah,
speaker-0: choreographed dance. Not very inventive.
speaker-1: It's become this very narrow, defined route to arousal and maybe orgasm, maybe not. And I think at this time of our lives, as particular as our bodies are changing and everything else, our bodies won't let us override when things are not working. Like when I was in my 20s, I masked all of my insecurities and stuff with alcohol and partying and all of the things. I know, you know, I could just say, well, I'm just going to get high or get drunk and just get on with it. But when you've got vaginal dryness and loads of other things going on, body won't let you do that. And you can't drink the wine because it makes you feel like shit and gives you the hot buffoons and everything else and ruins your sleep. So you have to get more honest about what's really what's right for you and your body at this time of your life, not who you were 2013.
speaker-0: And my laughter at that is by no means to dismiss it. It's a laugh of recognition, whether, you know, both through my own body, through some of my closest friends who we talk about this stuff all the time, certainly through my clients. And to me, the beauty of this stage of life, and we're speaking about it through the lens of female-bodied folks and women, but look, we're partnered with men, if we're partnered with penis lovers in a similar age range, it's like, we're all kind of in this together. in our ways. And really, it's like if you let it, it becomes like truth serum, right? Like it's just, you're dumping truth serum on top of everything. Like, all right, I've been playing this part or I've been holding my tongue or I've been going along to get along. And now it's like, let's lay this out on the table. And if that's done earnestly and well, my goodness. Wow. What's up? on the other side of that it's miraculous.
speaker-1: I think so many of my clients get to this point where it's like, is this it? Surely there should be something more than this. And it's like, yeah, I love that they're able to recognize that and that midlife, can be the start of your pleasure, not the end. And like you say, if you're able to bring it and have that, that earnest, willing, heartfelt conversation of, I love what we have and how can we make it better? And how can we... try new things and rediscover ourselves together. It can be just wonderful. I'm here for that. I'm here for that conversation. I'm here for the wisdom that comes with that. It can help drop people out of that performative, sex has to look a certain way. It's not about youth and beauty and how your bum looks or the moves.
speaker-0: So.
speaker-1: It's so much more something much deeper. This is where we get away from the goal-based. And so, everybody comes to me because they want the orgasms. But it's as you say, there's like all this other stuff that we have to build the foundation. Yeah, exactly. We've got to work with the body and the nervous system. We've got to discover what a felt sense of safety feels like. And we start from there.
speaker-0: and that's what makes it sustainable. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So let's talk about this phenomenal phrase that you seem to have coined, the female disconnection epidemic. I think we're already leading into it, you know, with what we've been discussing here. But yeah, how did you come to encapsulate that phrase based upon the work you're doing, who you're supporting, the stories?
speaker-1: And in many ways, this is where I feel like I've come full circle from my corporate days because it's what my clients have been reflecting back to me. It's this sense of, this it? And it's not just in the bedroom, it's in every part of life, like getting to this point in life and going. And I see it with a lot of my friends, I see it with my clients, particularly people who are in male dominated industries and things like this, where it's like I'm forced to squeeze into this
speaker-0: ⁓
speaker-1: box to fit in and it's not allowing my full expression. It's not allowing my full creativity. It's not allowing me to be as curious and embodied and perceptive and intuitive as I would like to be. And it's like, and it's because we're still operating from these, these outdated power paradigms of power over. it's like, we're seeing this everywhere. We're seeing this play out. big time right now. I think there's just so many people who are just like, I don't know, I don't want to do this anymore. There's got to be another way. so whether it's, you know, as I see that I am going to be taking a diluted version of this into more mainstream corporate work in the future, because the embodiment and the nervous system pieces And that understanding of Eros as just like life force and joy and creativity. It is needed and we need this fresh injection and we need to be finding ways to get rid of this power over and helping organizations and individuals and families and relationships just for everyone to discover power from within.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: And I think if we can center pleasure in that, then there is so much that is possible.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, and that right there, that's such an important statement that it's power from within. think most of us are taught to orient to particularly sex and orgasm as something that comes from outside us to us. gives us right. So we're grasping, we're chasing, we want to go after that. And that striving energy creates a lot of pressure, creates a lot of dependence. Because then instead of recognizing that this is our life force energy, our naturally occurring emergent vital energy, we think about the other person. We think it's about our lover has to give us this thing, has to facilitate this. And I think there's so much that gets unwound when you start to look at it that way because, and I say this to my clients all the time, know, look, I'm talented. I'm good at what I do. I have a healthy. sense of self-esteem, there's no question. Also true, I can't draw out of someone what is not innately there. I cannot make a client orgasm. What I can do is everything you've just spoken about, I can help their nervous system to become more regulated, I can help them to tap into the internal resources that are intrinsically there and learn how to leverage them. I can help them learn how to feel safe with sensation and pleasure, and then they are accessing their power, right? So I'm using the me as a practitioner as an example, but the same applies in partnership, right? It's not really about the other person. So when you're supporting people, how, I mean, and I know there are certainly similarities here, but it's, how do you help people break that? deeply embedded belief that this is actually about chasing something outside of yourself and center it in themselves instead.
speaker-1: Yeah, great question. And this is where embodiment is such a key piece. And this is why before we even get to the pleasure and the sexuality and everything else, we start to work with embodiment tools and practices to really help people figure out what sensations they can detect in their body and to follow those sensations, to stay with them, to explore them so that they can develop. It's like developing a new language, isn't it? A new understanding of what's going on for them. And like, nobody can give you an orgasm. It's that it is, it is that background. That pleasure is there in the background when you can tune down the noise and, and dismantle the layers of the conditioning, the noise, whatever else is going on, the tension, all of that stuff. And that's where, that's where the juice is. And something that comes, you know, it comes up a lot in my work is sometimes or people who think about working with me and say, well, I've not got a partner, so what's the point? And it's like...
speaker-0: Wait, can you, are you gonna answer that one? The lady's in the room.
speaker-1: Because, yeah, I mean, I will say, like, all of the clients who've had their first orgasms through working with me, and I'm talking G-Spot and cervical orgasms, so deep multiple orgasms, I would say 99 % of them have had their first experience with those when they've been on their own self-pleasuring and not with a partner. So you have to discover, my work is about helping people discover it for themselves. Because when you can find it for yourself, then it's so much easier to communicate to a partner down, do, you know, let's let's change position. Whatever it is, when you know what is working is easier to follow this race to keep going with that.
speaker-0: Yes, that makes so much sense. And I know I've had clients come to me saying, but I don't like to masturbate. never masturbate. I want to masturbate. Maybe we need to look at your relationship with that concept because it you know, there are many reasons why people's cult acculturation and conditioning can cast a really big major shadow on touching oneself. And also to your point, there's no better way.
speaker-1: What?
speaker-0: to be attuned to the clear knowing of your body than to get hands on and hands in with yourself.
speaker-1: Absolutely and to be able to take as long as you need and to be able to be as nuanced or as subtle or to hold space for yourself without having to manage somebody else's agenda, energy, attention, whatever they're bringing to it and like people say ⁓ yeah there's less chemistry it's like yeah there is it is different.
speaker-0: It is! It's not apples to apple! We're not swimming, is!
speaker-1: But, you know, our primary relationship, I really believe, is with ourselves.
speaker-0: Agreed, agreed. And then how do you see like, when someone does as you are guiding and gets hands on with themselves and begins to know themselves in these ways, what do you see happen in terms of the translation from that experience to partnered sex? How does that add more power, more dimensionality?
speaker-1: It honestly, it's so interesting because often then the feedback is from the partners. Wow, this has been a game changer. This is revolutionized. I'm so excited. know that what I see a lot of the time is once clients work out what really works for them and it's like, okay, to to then be able to find it much easier to communicate with their partner, particularly perhaps they've been doing stuff for years. They've just been doing the same old going through the motions. It's like, hey, Can we try all these different things? Or I've discovered what works for me is something a bit different. And it transforms everything. I've had numerous clients who, when they started to really become embodied, that they stopped feeling less self-conscious about how they thought their body looked. And that meant that they were able to go on top with their partner. And they felt too self-conscious about doing that before because they worried about how they thought their belly looked and things like this. Andrew Dome on top with their partner, in fact, I had two in the same week, who then had the first G-spot orgasms with their partners because guess what? That was the position that went best. So, you know, it's like, yeah, that's an example of just what can change, but it can just revitalize everything because it's like... learning a new language and then you're inviting someone else in to be in that journey of discovery with you and to bring in playfulness and yeah.
speaker-0: Playfulness, I'm hearing playfulness, I'm hearing more self-acceptance and ease of being in your own body. I'm hearing pathways to pleasure that perhaps you never dared to go down before. mean, what I'm hearing is you've got a lot to gain.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And it's about gaining that self confidence.
speaker-0: Right. Yeah. And I think it takes confidence also to really embrace and encourage and if or outright ask for a wider scope of pleasure and affection and intimacy that may not be goal oriented. So we've talked a lot about how this can get you to orgasms, but there's also so much more. that I know that you really love to invite people to kind of be in that. Maybe it's even a little paradoxical, like, yeah, we want the orgasms and what about all this other stuff? So I'd love to hear you.
speaker-1: And this is what you know, it's the paradox this is when we take the goal off the table, that's where the magic happens Yeah
speaker-0: educator who knows what they're about is going to tell you the same thing. You don't have to only believe Mangala
speaker-1: Exactly, and it's because when we're tuning into discovering what's authentically right for us, rather than trying to be sexy or trying to be performative, it can be an expansive experience because every experience is fresh and unique. And it could just be that you're sat holding your partner's hand and you're just stroking their finger or something. And that in itself can just be the most beautiful connected, expansive experience that...
speaker-0: And I love that you mentioned the finger because I'm remembering a demonstration that I witnessed in a training many, years ago, and I have 100 % gone on to give other people this experience. And what involved the facilitator taking a single finger and using that finger to tease and exc... the person who had volunteered and all this intense energy and this anticipation building up with one little finger, right? So the energy that can get transmitted, you use the word playfulness already and I can't say enough for that. Playfulness, creativity, experimentation. So when we aren't goal-oriented and we widen the scope of how we might be interacting, for instance, with a single finger. There's just so much we don't know we don't know until we're there.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it also expands pleasure into not, you know, not just this genital thing, but that there is this full body, this energy, there's so much that, you know, it's such a wider, more expansive experience that's possible. And when I look back to when I first started exploring, you know, all those years ago, and I was in my late thirties, and I was like, what? There's more than the clitoris? And it's like,
speaker-0: Yeah. And for folks listening who might be like, wait, there is? What's what else? You've mentioned you've alluded to cervical orgasm. Talk about that for a moment for folks who might not know what is that? How do I even get about?
speaker-1: I get asked this a lot because it's something I talk about and teach a lot and it's often seen in perhaps some of the neo tantra circles as like the holy grail, you know, and I don't like the idea of like a hierarchy of orgasms like that was one thing. Dogma wise, when I was in the neo tantra world, we were basically taught that clitoral orgasms were the devil. And if you had a clitoral orgasm, you were discharging your energy. and then it was a bye day, I was like, no, your tears. No. So I'm a big believer that all our orgasms are wonderful and...
speaker-0: No. Then he passed up the mountain. However you want to get there, whatever works for your body, yes to that.
speaker-1: Cervical orgasms can feel very different to clitoral orgasms because it's a lot more subtle or it can be. ⁓ It can feel quite cosmic, quite psychedelic for some people. I've had clients who've had full visionary experiences when they've been experiencing a cervical orgasm. Yeah, I had a client who she said she could feel it reverberating in her system for the whole weekend. Another client said it felt like the energy filled the whole of her house. It was that expensive. I had a client who went on to sign five new high end clients after she had her first cervical organ like
speaker-0: Hey, so it's a fallen business strategy for some of us. ⁓
speaker-1: And yes, this is when we talk about female disconnection, you know, this is like, if we want to go all the way, there is so much more that is possible. And it can feel very otherworldly, but it can for some people, it can be very subtle and meditative. And it's different for it's so unique, but it is it requires stimulation of the cervix. And so for a lot of people, the cervix might be numb. cervix might, you there might be trauma there that needs to be gently worked through. I, for myself, I had a lot of stuff with like horrible pap smears and things that, you know, I had to work through pain and numbness. And then eventually that became sensation and then eventually that became pleasure. And then eventually that became orgasm. So it, and it requires a lot of safety and lot of ⁓ holding around it. It's It's less likely to show up in a one night stand, but it can, but yeah, yeah, so that's the short answer.
speaker-0: I appreciate hearing it. I know that to be perhaps the word to put to it is it might be a more elusive experience. Either of us advocating that you thus go like chasing it like you're looking for Bigfoot. ⁓ I find that it's actually a really nourishing way to cultivate a self intimacy practice, contracting your cervix, you know, having that deeper penetration that can be very gentle, very still. you know, whether or not you get an orgasm out of it, it's a powerful means of self-reclamation and self-care.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And even just, you know, I work with lot of clients who it's just like, ⁓ that feels way too confronting. Even going internal feels confronting or they feel squeamish about it. They're so, okay, well, let's just start by visualizing, starting to make a connection with your cervix, building a heart cervix connection. Start with the, yeah, start with the subtle things. And I've had clients who've had total hysterectomies, so they've got no cervix. they've still experienced it all there's some... so it's amazing what can happen.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, what what that to me intimates is just the really truly miraculous nature of what it is to be in these bodies that have capacities that most of us have barely begun to scratch the surface of. If I were to try to to take everything we've spoken of here today and like put a little bow on it like it really is about potential, realizing potential.
speaker-1: Absolutely, it's about that deep knowing and trusting of ourselves. That's where the gold is. That's what I'm passionate about. And there's nothing lights me up more than when clients say to me, I finally feel like myself. That's what it's about. It's not about the nice feeling inside your pussy. It's the knowing and trusting yourself. ⁓
speaker-0: The nice feelings on your pussy are the cherry on top. my gosh, Mangala, this is wonderful. I really love just getting to hear your perspectives on these things. And again, to everyone listening, Mangala's real deal. I highly encourage you to lean in and learn more. And I know you've got a three-part video series for free from Shut Down to Sensual Satisfaction. Anything you want to say about that, will 100 % be it.
speaker-1: So I am all about simple bite size practical tools to help you get started. And so these are very short videos with very simple practices that just to help you get into your body and start to film.
speaker-0: Love that. And you've got a best selling book and you've got social accounts and you've got all these other ways that we're going to link everything to. there anything else that you want to highlight that folks should know about you to the easiest way to get into your orbit or the jumping off point?
speaker-1: Yeah, well come follow me on Instagram or Facebook, choose your poison. Yeah, you've got the link to my book, my number one bestseller book.
speaker-0: You mongola ⁓ and we've covered a lot of ground so no pressure here is there any last little something either an echo of of a point already touched upon or something that we did not get to that you really want people to know when it comes to. Being in their pleasure and in their power and in their authentic.
speaker-1: There's two things and they're tied together. I would say it's never too late to start this stuff. I've got clients in their 70s who are having their first amazing orgasms for the first time. And something I think that stops a lot of people from doing this work is that all they do a little bit and then they feel like a failure. You're not wired differently. Like you're not wired differently to anybody else. Like it's not like, oh, pleasure is for other people, not for me. I really want everyone to know it is possible.
speaker-0: Right, the capacity is there in every single one of you dear listeners who have tuned in with us. Thank you for that. Thank you for the gift of your attention. Mangala, thank you for the gift of your wisdom. I am just honored that this is my job, that I get to have this conversation. Seriously, and those of you listening with us, thank you. And if you loved what you heard, please make sure you are subscribed so that you will not miss next week's episode. And go ahead and give us a like and a rating and a share and all those good things so we can put this out in more people's ears, more people's hearts and bodies. And that is how we're going to change the world, y'all. I'm here for it. Mangala, again, big thanks to you.
speaker-1: Thank you, thanks for having me on.
speaker-1: We get to. Thank you, delighted to be here and super excited for our conversation.
speaker-0: Yeah. So I'm going to offer just a couple little things that you and I have in common for the sake of the audience to know about us. And then we can see which of these, if any, becomes the jumping off point. So we are both two women who had careers in rather masculine normative mainstream industries before we got into sex and intimacy, right? That's a truth. You were in stockbroking, this?
speaker-1: That's right. Yeah, I was an IT trainer for stock brokers in the UK.
speaker-0: there. We had major credit bureaus and dealt with unemployment taxes. Wild! I know, weird world. And then we both had our dance with the world of tantra, particularly more like neo-tantra and saw the shadows and the harm being done in communities that are supposedly about sacred sexuality and spiritual growth. And I know we both have our opinions about those worlds. Knowing that we have that in common are two of the things that have endeared you to be. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, how those pieces of your formative experience led you to where you are now and how, like, kind of how you got to the work that you're doing, which maybe start by giving a little summation of that for folks who don't know you.
speaker-1: Yeah, so yeah, I have been teaching the body of work that I teach for the last 13 years. I've been in this sexuality world for, guess it's coming on to about 17 years now. And yeah, I work with women and vulva owners all over the world, helping them overcome sexual blocks and helping them to find their authentic true power and autonomy and authority and helping them. essentially become orgasmic and fulfilled and sexually confident. And it's what a joy. I always say I've got the best job in the world. And, you know, I remember somebody, wise woman said to me many years ago that no experience is wasted. And, you know, I've been on I feel like I've lived several lifetimes, lifetimes already this life and
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a good one.
speaker-1: where I'm at right now, I really see all the threads of all these pieces coming together. You know, I had to really step away from a lot of the stuff that was being taught in the neo-Tantra world and in those communities because of the harm and dogmatic approaches and everything else. But, you know, that's where I did have my first incredible experiences. It's where I discovered the world of cervical orgasms and Yeah, I also picked up a lot of trauma and harm and baggage along the way. But, you know, it's helped shaped who I am and it helped me develop the trajectory of my work over the years of wanting to offer something that was more ethical and with as much safety as possible and take a slower, more nuanced consent based trauma informed approach to this work. So, you know, there's a whole process around that, but also with my corporate. regular people. ⁓
speaker-0: I'm not pausing regular people because you might be listening. We love... I don't know about you, but to me it's more recognition that folks like you and I who have created bodies of work rooted in healing and spiritual growth and personal development, like we still are kind of the fringy ones, right? Like we're minorities.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's it. And I feel like you're living like, it's like my my really straight friends think I'm think I'm really out there and my my more alternative friends think I'm super mainstream. So I feel like I'm in this like Venn diagram and I'm somewhere in the middle of all of this.
speaker-0: No. Which I have to say has impacted my dating life a lot. Stay too wild for the normies. Way not into the like total spiritual bypass camp like, around themselves. So it's an interesting hair.
speaker-1: Perhaps we can touch on that later because I'm in a happy place with that.
speaker-0: You're in a new relationship now.
speaker-1: Yeah, but yeah, what I've really tried to do over the years is to make sure that my body of work, that people find it accessible, that there is a jumping in point that doesn't feel too confronting and I can meet people where they're ready to step into this work because not everybody is ready to dive into a $5,000 week long retreat, throw their clothes off, jump in at the deep end. Yeah, in an effort to go into their sexual healing. I don't believe that that is often that helpful anyway, you know, that I think a more subtle approach is often more beneficial and you need to just take those baby steps. And, you know, that means that I can meet people where they're at. I can work with the regular nine to fiveers and, you know, the people who are stressed out busy mums who've also got businesses or whatever else is going on in lives so I can meet them and their bodies and their nervous systems where they're at.
speaker-0: which is so needed and deserved that all of us deserve to be met where we are to have our nervous systems and bodies and our experiences really matched by the ones who might hold space for us, guide us, teach us who we choose to learn from and grow alongside. And that feels to me like a great jumping off point that you speak about the problem with dogmatic. approaches to pleasure and that that was a part of the experience you had in the neo-tantra world. you know, dogma is present in so many ways. Certainly our dominant cultural scripts around sexuality are highly dogmatic and also very narrow, right? Like penis in vagina, move, move, move, penis gets to have its orgasm. Who cares if the vagina of vulva have her, which we should still be. that we have to continually be correcting that one. Vulva on the outside, vagina on the inside, in case anyone is not clear on that. But I'd love to hear a little bit about how you approach that then. Like, what is problematic with it from your vantage point? And how do you help guide people away from the dogma, like the goal-oriented and catharsis-heavy approaches to things that are more about really being present with where you are?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I think this so much of that stems from my early experiences in the neo-tantra world. You know, it's like I went into that with very pure intentions of spiritual growth and you know, I yeah, and I was told this is the real yoga. This is a real tantra. I had no reason not to believe it. I was pretty naive. That was, you know, but I, I, bought into it and It's like, couldn't believe like we've been taught like you must be you. Your job is to be as feminine as possible and the feminine surrenders. And it was this whole dogmatic masculine feminine put in terms of Shiva and Shakti and that we were embodying these divine archetypes. And what I didn't realize at the time was how dehumanizing that is that we're not. human beings that we're supposed to be playing out these roles of gods and goddesses and that I'm supposed to be being the divine feminine and trying to live up to this ideal thing that doesn't actually exist. And it was so challenging. It didn't fit with me as a feminist. It didn't fit with me as somebody who'd never really like felt feminine as such and didn't... identify as feminine and yeah, this whole thing. was really challenging. And what I found in that community was, and it was very heteronormative. It was quite homophobic. There's a lot of dogma around that. I don't think they would have ever had a trans person walk into that space and stay there because they wouldn't have felt safe. You know, it was so, so many problems with it, but it just, yeah, it left the women feeling like the women had to give all their power away and the men were supposed to make all the decisions and the men were not able to demonstrate and express their feelings. It was just really disconnected.
speaker-0: Wow, that just sounds like such a microcosm of the patriarchal norm. Women hand over your power, men suppress everything real, everybody play a tidy, neat little part. Like, the fuck?
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ⁓ It's, you know, it's so gross looking back and it is a microcosm, I particularly think like where the world is right now and what's blowing up everywhere with everything. It is and it was just it was that the power dynamics was so sticky. So no wonder there was a lot of abuse and manipulation and everything else. And it was essentially taking kind of concepts from David Dada and trying to make it into a whole way of life, which is just not, it's not doable, not realistic. it really, yeah, yeah. It took a lot of unraveling as I stepped out of that, to discernment, because we were taught how we should behave, how we should dress, how we should look like, and what to feel and what to think. So to step out of that and to start to discover what is my truth? What does my body really, what is my body really feeling in this moment? What feels like a yes and what feels like a no? What are the gray areas? It was a huge reclamation of self-discovery and truth and power and it's a road to deeper pleasure.
speaker-0: Yes. Absolutely. mean, because what you're describing, you know, this is the work that I guide my clients in, of how do you discern your yeses and your nos, your desires and your boundaries? What is your authentic expression in any given moment? And so to, I think for many people, you know, I don't necessarily work with a ton of clients who have a background like ours, we were in part of the world, but it is that very same set of missed experiences and underdeveloped capacities then that we get to help people heal around. I had to go through that myself. And I, so you said it's been 13 years or so in this portion, this chapter.
speaker-1: I got out there, yeah, it would be about 11 years since I left and I was already working with clients while I was still in that environment because women were coming to me going that what the teaching is isn't jelling but I still want to have these experiences. You look like you're doing something differently, help. So yeah, and I think what it, you know, it's about conditioning, isn't it? And like, I so willingly jumped into all of that at the time because I was so desperate to unravel the conditioning I had around shame, my sexuality and lack of pleasure and the whole disconnection.
speaker-0: pendulum swings like they're shame shame shamed like free for all and
speaker-1: And what I didn't realize was I was replacing one set of conditioning with another set rather than trying to find my truth. Particularly coming from a stuffy English repressed background. was like seeing all these people who I thought were free and open and expressed and they weren't, they were just putting on a mask.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's a really profoundly important insight you just shared. I, you know, I myself through the lens of that, and I invite those listening to it's like, are there ways where we're just trading one mask for another one dog or another, as opposed to that deep, truly transformational work of finding out who we really are. That that's what it's down to is our authenticity. So I'm aware that Part of your journey and a significant part in linear time at least was 10 years of intentional syllabus.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓
speaker-0: I mean, I think, and I don't know about you, I certainly feel that in this industry, people assume I am far sluttier than I actually am in practice. My philosophy is certainly very, very sluttier, in practice, and it goes in waves, I have seasons and cycles where there's different things going on in my outward sexual expression. Certainly for me, the richest part of it has been. this widening of the definition of Eros for me and thus my erotic energy is available. I would love to hear what brought you to that decision and how it has shaped you and made you the amazing practitioner, educator, speaker, teacher that you are because I know that you are. bring stretch gifts.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's a perception that when we're doing this kind of work that, we're swinging from the chandeliers every night and it's, you know, having a wild time and don't get me wrong, I have lived. I have lived and I've, you know, I've done all kinds of stuff and that's great. But once I bounced out of the neo-tantra world, I recognized I needed to clean up some pieces. my sexuality and that was emotionally but also just to really discover. I really went on a very deep nuanced journey with my own self-pleasure and that felt like, yeah I did try and dabble a bit in dating when I lived in Australia and I lived in Australia for five years and I've been back in UK now for six years and yeah it's been a process and I dabbled in dating here and there, but essentially it felt like, I need to be in my own energy and I really need to, I mean, yeah, I really need to do some very deep inner work. And I did some amazing therapy a few years ago and that was just like so phenomenal. I came out of that. It's like, if a relationship happens, great. Ideally what I want is to be in a long-term committed monogamous mature relationship and I'm at a point in my life, I'm 53 now, I'm at a point in my life where I'm not prepared to settle for something else. I'm no longer going to compromise for getting the validation of well least somebody wants to get me in the sack or at least I'm going to have some great sex out of it. Like the trade-off wasn't enough. I'd go to ecstatic dance classes and things like this and be interacting with people and I'd get halfway through the night and go, I'd actually rather be at home reading my book right now. And I'd walk out in the middle of the class and go home and get in bed and read my book and be like, yay, this is exactly what I want to give myself. And so it's like, I am allowed to, it's not about being entitled or princessy or anything like that, but it's just, know myself well enough and I love myself well enough that I ⁓ If someone great comes in who can meet me in that, awesome. But I can give myself the pleasure in the orgasms that I want. I can hold myself in so much of my life. So I'm not looking for someone else to come in and give that to me. I can resource myself in that. And it's just been, yeah, it's been such a powerful journey.
speaker-0: Yes, and I mean, there's just so much wisdom in your transmission right there in describing what that was for you, because if we don't have the ability to discern, do I want to be out on the dance floor or home with my book? Like if that that discernment isn't available to us, how can we reasonably expect to know the ways that we want to be made love to or fucked or? gold or, you know, or the way that we want to shape a partnership with another person if we are seeking to create one newly or if we are in one that is right for some evolution, shall we say. So, you know, that to me, a lot of, of course, I imagine this is on the nose. People come to us for the orgasms, right? They come for something to transform in their sexuality. But the thing is, you often have to work backwards. are more basic levels of discernment, of nexion to your body and your that deep wisdom saying, yes, no, this, that. And you, you not such a big way. And I know you work a lot with midlife women as when I are squarely that I do as well. And this age and stage of life really does lend itself well, huh?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ I'm curious what you have to say about the para-menopause, menopause passage as it relates to these themes.
speaker-1: I think it gives us if we work with it as a an intentional thing as much as we can there's an opportunity here to get really discerning and It is this stripping away of all the things in life that might not be serving us or that we've outgrown or that Just stop. It's like, you know, these clothes don't fit me anymore. It's that kind of feeling and like okay what needs to burn away and Yeah, and pleasure and sexuality is such a key part of that. And to really, I really encourage my clients to really get curious about I think what we get stuck in, particularly for the clients I've worked with who are in long term relationships. And I work with a lot of people who've been with their partners for 20, 30, even 40 years. And it gets into this very mechanical routine. I do this, then you do that. And yeah,
speaker-0: choreographed dance. Not very inventive.
speaker-1: It's become this very narrow, defined route to arousal and maybe orgasm, maybe not. And I think at this time of our lives, as particular as our bodies are changing and everything else, our bodies won't let us override when things are not working. Like when I was in my 20s, I masked all of my insecurities and stuff with alcohol and partying and all of the things. I know, you know, I could just say, well, I'm just going to get high or get drunk and just get on with it. But when you've got vaginal dryness and loads of other things going on, body won't let you do that. And you can't drink the wine because it makes you feel like shit and gives you the hot buffoons and everything else and ruins your sleep. So you have to get more honest about what's really what's right for you and your body at this time of your life, not who you were 2013.
speaker-0: And my laughter at that is by no means to dismiss it. It's a laugh of recognition, whether, you know, both through my own body, through some of my closest friends who we talk about this stuff all the time, certainly through my clients. And to me, the beauty of this stage of life, and we're speaking about it through the lens of female-bodied folks and women, but look, we're partnered with men, if we're partnered with penis lovers in a similar age range, it's like, we're all kind of in this together. in our ways. And really, it's like if you let it, it becomes like truth serum, right? Like it's just, you're dumping truth serum on top of everything. Like, all right, I've been playing this part or I've been holding my tongue or I've been going along to get along. And now it's like, let's lay this out on the table. And if that's done earnestly and well, my goodness. Wow. What's up? on the other side of that it's miraculous.
speaker-1: I think so many of my clients get to this point where it's like, is this it? Surely there should be something more than this. And it's like, yeah, I love that they're able to recognize that and that midlife, can be the start of your pleasure, not the end. And like you say, if you're able to bring it and have that, that earnest, willing, heartfelt conversation of, I love what we have and how can we make it better? And how can we... try new things and rediscover ourselves together. It can be just wonderful. I'm here for that. I'm here for that conversation. I'm here for the wisdom that comes with that. It can help drop people out of that performative, sex has to look a certain way. It's not about youth and beauty and how your bum looks or the moves.
speaker-0: So.
speaker-1: It's so much more something much deeper. This is where we get away from the goal-based. And so, everybody comes to me because they want the orgasms. But it's as you say, there's like all this other stuff that we have to build the foundation. Yeah, exactly. We've got to work with the body and the nervous system. We've got to discover what a felt sense of safety feels like. And we start from there.
speaker-0: and that's what makes it sustainable. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So let's talk about this phenomenal phrase that you seem to have coined, the female disconnection epidemic. I think we're already leading into it, you know, with what we've been discussing here. But yeah, how did you come to encapsulate that phrase based upon the work you're doing, who you're supporting, the stories?
speaker-1: And in many ways, this is where I feel like I've come full circle from my corporate days because it's what my clients have been reflecting back to me. It's this sense of, this it? And it's not just in the bedroom, it's in every part of life, like getting to this point in life and going. And I see it with a lot of my friends, I see it with my clients, particularly people who are in male dominated industries and things like this, where it's like I'm forced to squeeze into this
speaker-0: ⁓
speaker-1: box to fit in and it's not allowing my full expression. It's not allowing my full creativity. It's not allowing me to be as curious and embodied and perceptive and intuitive as I would like to be. And it's like, and it's because we're still operating from these, these outdated power paradigms of power over. it's like, we're seeing this everywhere. We're seeing this play out. big time right now. I think there's just so many people who are just like, I don't know, I don't want to do this anymore. There's got to be another way. so whether it's, you know, as I see that I am going to be taking a diluted version of this into more mainstream corporate work in the future, because the embodiment and the nervous system pieces And that understanding of Eros as just like life force and joy and creativity. It is needed and we need this fresh injection and we need to be finding ways to get rid of this power over and helping organizations and individuals and families and relationships just for everyone to discover power from within.
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: And I think if we can center pleasure in that, then there is so much that is possible.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, and that right there, that's such an important statement that it's power from within. think most of us are taught to orient to particularly sex and orgasm as something that comes from outside us to us. gives us right. So we're grasping, we're chasing, we want to go after that. And that striving energy creates a lot of pressure, creates a lot of dependence. Because then instead of recognizing that this is our life force energy, our naturally occurring emergent vital energy, we think about the other person. We think it's about our lover has to give us this thing, has to facilitate this. And I think there's so much that gets unwound when you start to look at it that way because, and I say this to my clients all the time, know, look, I'm talented. I'm good at what I do. I have a healthy. sense of self-esteem, there's no question. Also true, I can't draw out of someone what is not innately there. I cannot make a client orgasm. What I can do is everything you've just spoken about, I can help their nervous system to become more regulated, I can help them to tap into the internal resources that are intrinsically there and learn how to leverage them. I can help them learn how to feel safe with sensation and pleasure, and then they are accessing their power, right? So I'm using the me as a practitioner as an example, but the same applies in partnership, right? It's not really about the other person. So when you're supporting people, how, I mean, and I know there are certainly similarities here, but it's, how do you help people break that? deeply embedded belief that this is actually about chasing something outside of yourself and center it in themselves instead.
speaker-1: Yeah, great question. And this is where embodiment is such a key piece. And this is why before we even get to the pleasure and the sexuality and everything else, we start to work with embodiment tools and practices to really help people figure out what sensations they can detect in their body and to follow those sensations, to stay with them, to explore them so that they can develop. It's like developing a new language, isn't it? A new understanding of what's going on for them. And like, nobody can give you an orgasm. It's that it is, it is that background. That pleasure is there in the background when you can tune down the noise and, and dismantle the layers of the conditioning, the noise, whatever else is going on, the tension, all of that stuff. And that's where, that's where the juice is. And something that comes, you know, it comes up a lot in my work is sometimes or people who think about working with me and say, well, I've not got a partner, so what's the point? And it's like...
speaker-0: Wait, can you, are you gonna answer that one? The lady's in the room.
speaker-1: Because, yeah, I mean, I will say, like, all of the clients who've had their first orgasms through working with me, and I'm talking G-Spot and cervical orgasms, so deep multiple orgasms, I would say 99 % of them have had their first experience with those when they've been on their own self-pleasuring and not with a partner. So you have to discover, my work is about helping people discover it for themselves. Because when you can find it for yourself, then it's so much easier to communicate to a partner down, do, you know, let's let's change position. Whatever it is, when you know what is working is easier to follow this race to keep going with that.
speaker-0: Yes, that makes so much sense. And I know I've had clients come to me saying, but I don't like to masturbate. never masturbate. I want to masturbate. Maybe we need to look at your relationship with that concept because it you know, there are many reasons why people's cult acculturation and conditioning can cast a really big major shadow on touching oneself. And also to your point, there's no better way.
speaker-1: What?
speaker-0: to be attuned to the clear knowing of your body than to get hands on and hands in with yourself.
speaker-1: Absolutely and to be able to take as long as you need and to be able to be as nuanced or as subtle or to hold space for yourself without having to manage somebody else's agenda, energy, attention, whatever they're bringing to it and like people say ⁓ yeah there's less chemistry it's like yeah there is it is different.
speaker-0: It is! It's not apples to apple! We're not swimming, is!
speaker-1: But, you know, our primary relationship, I really believe, is with ourselves.
speaker-0: Agreed, agreed. And then how do you see like, when someone does as you are guiding and gets hands on with themselves and begins to know themselves in these ways, what do you see happen in terms of the translation from that experience to partnered sex? How does that add more power, more dimensionality?
speaker-1: It honestly, it's so interesting because often then the feedback is from the partners. Wow, this has been a game changer. This is revolutionized. I'm so excited. know that what I see a lot of the time is once clients work out what really works for them and it's like, okay, to to then be able to find it much easier to communicate with their partner, particularly perhaps they've been doing stuff for years. They've just been doing the same old going through the motions. It's like, hey, Can we try all these different things? Or I've discovered what works for me is something a bit different. And it transforms everything. I've had numerous clients who, when they started to really become embodied, that they stopped feeling less self-conscious about how they thought their body looked. And that meant that they were able to go on top with their partner. And they felt too self-conscious about doing that before because they worried about how they thought their belly looked and things like this. Andrew Dome on top with their partner, in fact, I had two in the same week, who then had the first G-spot orgasms with their partners because guess what? That was the position that went best. So, you know, it's like, yeah, that's an example of just what can change, but it can just revitalize everything because it's like... learning a new language and then you're inviting someone else in to be in that journey of discovery with you and to bring in playfulness and yeah.
speaker-0: Playfulness, I'm hearing playfulness, I'm hearing more self-acceptance and ease of being in your own body. I'm hearing pathways to pleasure that perhaps you never dared to go down before. mean, what I'm hearing is you've got a lot to gain.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And it's about gaining that self confidence.
speaker-0: Right. Yeah. And I think it takes confidence also to really embrace and encourage and if or outright ask for a wider scope of pleasure and affection and intimacy that may not be goal oriented. So we've talked a lot about how this can get you to orgasms, but there's also so much more. that I know that you really love to invite people to kind of be in that. Maybe it's even a little paradoxical, like, yeah, we want the orgasms and what about all this other stuff? So I'd love to hear you.
speaker-1: And this is what you know, it's the paradox this is when we take the goal off the table, that's where the magic happens Yeah
speaker-0: educator who knows what they're about is going to tell you the same thing. You don't have to only believe Mangala
speaker-1: Exactly, and it's because when we're tuning into discovering what's authentically right for us, rather than trying to be sexy or trying to be performative, it can be an expansive experience because every experience is fresh and unique. And it could just be that you're sat holding your partner's hand and you're just stroking their finger or something. And that in itself can just be the most beautiful connected, expansive experience that...
speaker-0: And I love that you mentioned the finger because I'm remembering a demonstration that I witnessed in a training many, years ago, and I have 100 % gone on to give other people this experience. And what involved the facilitator taking a single finger and using that finger to tease and exc... the person who had volunteered and all this intense energy and this anticipation building up with one little finger, right? So the energy that can get transmitted, you use the word playfulness already and I can't say enough for that. Playfulness, creativity, experimentation. So when we aren't goal-oriented and we widen the scope of how we might be interacting, for instance, with a single finger. There's just so much we don't know we don't know until we're there.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it also expands pleasure into not, you know, not just this genital thing, but that there is this full body, this energy, there's so much that, you know, it's such a wider, more expansive experience that's possible. And when I look back to when I first started exploring, you know, all those years ago, and I was in my late thirties, and I was like, what? There's more than the clitoris? And it's like,
speaker-0: Yeah. And for folks listening who might be like, wait, there is? What's what else? You've mentioned you've alluded to cervical orgasm. Talk about that for a moment for folks who might not know what is that? How do I even get about?
speaker-1: I get asked this a lot because it's something I talk about and teach a lot and it's often seen in perhaps some of the neo tantra circles as like the holy grail, you know, and I don't like the idea of like a hierarchy of orgasms like that was one thing. Dogma wise, when I was in the neo tantra world, we were basically taught that clitoral orgasms were the devil. And if you had a clitoral orgasm, you were discharging your energy. and then it was a bye day, I was like, no, your tears. No. So I'm a big believer that all our orgasms are wonderful and...
speaker-0: No. Then he passed up the mountain. However you want to get there, whatever works for your body, yes to that.
speaker-1: Cervical orgasms can feel very different to clitoral orgasms because it's a lot more subtle or it can be. ⁓ It can feel quite cosmic, quite psychedelic for some people. I've had clients who've had full visionary experiences when they've been experiencing a cervical orgasm. Yeah, I had a client who she said she could feel it reverberating in her system for the whole weekend. Another client said it felt like the energy filled the whole of her house. It was that expensive. I had a client who went on to sign five new high end clients after she had her first cervical organ like
speaker-0: Hey, so it's a fallen business strategy for some of us. ⁓
speaker-1: And yes, this is when we talk about female disconnection, you know, this is like, if we want to go all the way, there is so much more that is possible. And it can feel very otherworldly, but it can for some people, it can be very subtle and meditative. And it's different for it's so unique, but it is it requires stimulation of the cervix. And so for a lot of people, the cervix might be numb. cervix might, you there might be trauma there that needs to be gently worked through. I, for myself, I had a lot of stuff with like horrible pap smears and things that, you know, I had to work through pain and numbness. And then eventually that became sensation and then eventually that became pleasure. And then eventually that became orgasm. So it, and it requires a lot of safety and lot of ⁓ holding around it. It's It's less likely to show up in a one night stand, but it can, but yeah, yeah, so that's the short answer.
speaker-0: I appreciate hearing it. I know that to be perhaps the word to put to it is it might be a more elusive experience. Either of us advocating that you thus go like chasing it like you're looking for Bigfoot. ⁓ I find that it's actually a really nourishing way to cultivate a self intimacy practice, contracting your cervix, you know, having that deeper penetration that can be very gentle, very still. you know, whether or not you get an orgasm out of it, it's a powerful means of self-reclamation and self-care.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And even just, you know, I work with lot of clients who it's just like, ⁓ that feels way too confronting. Even going internal feels confronting or they feel squeamish about it. They're so, okay, well, let's just start by visualizing, starting to make a connection with your cervix, building a heart cervix connection. Start with the, yeah, start with the subtle things. And I've had clients who've had total hysterectomies, so they've got no cervix. they've still experienced it all there's some... so it's amazing what can happen.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, what what that to me intimates is just the really truly miraculous nature of what it is to be in these bodies that have capacities that most of us have barely begun to scratch the surface of. If I were to try to to take everything we've spoken of here today and like put a little bow on it like it really is about potential, realizing potential.
speaker-1: Absolutely, it's about that deep knowing and trusting of ourselves. That's where the gold is. That's what I'm passionate about. And there's nothing lights me up more than when clients say to me, I finally feel like myself. That's what it's about. It's not about the nice feeling inside your pussy. It's the knowing and trusting yourself. ⁓
speaker-0: The nice feelings on your pussy are the cherry on top. my gosh, Mangala, this is wonderful. I really love just getting to hear your perspectives on these things. And again, to everyone listening, Mangala's real deal. I highly encourage you to lean in and learn more. And I know you've got a three-part video series for free from Shut Down to Sensual Satisfaction. Anything you want to say about that, will 100 % be it.
speaker-1: So I am all about simple bite size practical tools to help you get started. And so these are very short videos with very simple practices that just to help you get into your body and start to film.
speaker-0: Love that. And you've got a best selling book and you've got social accounts and you've got all these other ways that we're going to link everything to. there anything else that you want to highlight that folks should know about you to the easiest way to get into your orbit or the jumping off point?
speaker-1: Yeah, well come follow me on Instagram or Facebook, choose your poison. Yeah, you've got the link to my book, my number one bestseller book.
speaker-0: You mongola ⁓ and we've covered a lot of ground so no pressure here is there any last little something either an echo of of a point already touched upon or something that we did not get to that you really want people to know when it comes to. Being in their pleasure and in their power and in their authentic.
speaker-1: There's two things and they're tied together. I would say it's never too late to start this stuff. I've got clients in their 70s who are having their first amazing orgasms for the first time. And something I think that stops a lot of people from doing this work is that all they do a little bit and then they feel like a failure. You're not wired differently. Like you're not wired differently to anybody else. Like it's not like, oh, pleasure is for other people, not for me. I really want everyone to know it is possible.
speaker-0: Right, the capacity is there in every single one of you dear listeners who have tuned in with us. Thank you for that. Thank you for the gift of your attention. Mangala, thank you for the gift of your wisdom. I am just honored that this is my job, that I get to have this conversation. Seriously, and those of you listening with us, thank you. And if you loved what you heard, please make sure you are subscribed so that you will not miss next week's episode. And go ahead and give us a like and a rating and a share and all those good things so we can put this out in more people's ears, more people's hearts and bodies. And that is how we're going to change the world, y'all. I'm here for it. Mangala, again, big thanks to you.
speaker-1: Thank you, thanks for having me on.
