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Monica H. Kang: Sometimes you meet people and there's just something deeper in what they provide and how they see the world. And when you do get to know them, you realize it's not a coincidence why you felt that way. It's probably because they have experienced quite a level of depth and diverse experience that permits them to stay humble and curious about their surroundings. And this is kind of the way how I would describe my meeting with Jeff many years ago at a community event where we instantly became friends and acquaintance.
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Monica H. Kang: And not only was I inspired by his work at Literati, which we'll talk about, and how he is on the mission of building a global community, working to create a litter free planet and world, I was also really inspired by his approach to leadership, entrepreneurship, and most certainly how he got to be where he is. Because he is here to tell you dont have to start by figuring everything out from the beginning. In fact, his very start into literati, as you will quickly learn, was starting with a curiosity, an observation he had with a conversation with his daughter, who made the comment, this doesnt feel right here. Thats right. That was the comment she made when she noticed a trash in the middle of their walk in the woods. And sure, that is not supposed to be there.
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Monica H. Kang: Indeed, Jeff wondered, geez, if somebody, as my daughter could point out, there are a lot of litters around the floor, in the grass, everywhere, then what can we do better? And as youll quickly find out, his curiosity that led him to build literati was something that started very early on in his career, being curious about everything. So as we continue to celebrate Earth Day, I am so excited to have my friend Jeff here to share about his journey, not only about literary, but his whole philosophy and how we should approach life and problem solving. Meet Jeff.
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Monica H. Kang: So very excited to have my friend Jeff here. Jeff, welcome to the show. First question I have for you is I'm curious if you remember way back when you were a child, what were your dreams and what did you wanted to do when you grew up?
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Jeff Kirschner: Oh, I absolutely remember. I wanted to be a professional hockey player.
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Monica H. Kang: Oh, why?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because I grew up in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia Flyers were and still are a big team and a big deal. And I just looked up to them and thought that was the greatest thing in the world, and that's what I wanted to be.
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Monica H. Kang: What changed?
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Jeff Kirschner: Well, I wasn't good enough. That's for starters. You know, in a way, nothing's changed. I think if you told me that I could still be a professional hockey player, I would absolutely sign up for that right now. But I think the realities of life set in at a very early age, and I realized that, yeah, it's not what I'm meant to do, but that was one. And if I think back even earlier than that, there was definitely a time where I wanted to be a fireman.
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Monica H. Kang: Why?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because I remember there was some. I was enamored with the big red truck going by and this idea that you could go fight fires and save people, and there was something really inspiring to me about that.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Well, in a way, you are kind of being the firefighter in different ways, which we will speak about in a little bit. Just instead of fire, you're tackling planet earth to support in a different way. Let's dive into some of the early chapters. And so Philadelphia, that's where you started. You went to school at Ann harbor. How did that feel? Was that the first time you left your family?
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Jeff Kirschner: It was the first time I left my family for a longer period of time. I had taken, you know, some summers here and there where I spent time. Like, for example, I was. I cleaned boats in Nantucket for a while.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: I had some really interesting, unfortunate experiences, but that was a moment where, yeah, I stepped out of my comfort zone and went away and loved every single minute of it.
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Monica H. Kang: And how did that study influence how you started your career in San Francisco area?
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think it did, which is why I ask. I say that a little bit tongue in cheek, but the reality is that when I graduated from Michigan, I had no idea what I wanted to do, other than I knew I didn't want to leave. I wanted to stay in school. I wanted to continue evolving the life that I had built for myself there. I. Looking back, I had a ton of fun and made some wonderful connections. I didn't take advantage of the resources that the university had, and that's a regret. I was a good student. Not great, not bad. But that place offers so much, and, yeah, I probably could have taken advantage more than I did. Part of that, I would say, is I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't really have a column.
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Jeff Kirschner: I wasn't passionate about anything, and therefore, I didn't really have anything that I was really dying to apply myself to. But, you know, I ended up leaving school, graduating, and applying to law school. And I like to say that you apply to law school when you have no idea what else you want to do, and that's what I did.
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Monica H. Kang: And that took you to San Francisco?
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. And nowhere near law tell us more. Yeah. So I was very lucky that I had an uncle who opened a lot of law doors for me. He was a well known attorney, and so he made a bunch of calls, and I was welcomed with open arms to a bunch of different firms. And here I was sort of living in San Francisco, being invited to these different partners offices, and I really didn't like anything I was here. I was ignorant. I was selfish. I thought, like, this is not a world that I want to be in. And I really got out before I ever got in. In fact, I had applied to law schools. I had taken the LSAT, and I really just stopped even pursuing it at all. I knew that this just wasn't the path for me at that time.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I started bartending. Cause I needed to pay the bills. And I had done that in college, and I started teaching young kids how to play soccer because I had also done that in college. And so here I was sort of living in northern California. This was during a time before the Internet was really sort of used by the mass market. And it was a really freeing time for me because when you grow up on the east coast, there's a magic to California. Like, whoa, you moved to California. And I was experiencing that, and I look back on that with really fond memories.
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Monica H. Kang: And at some point, you also travel. What happened, and why did you decide to suddenly travel for a year?
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Jeff Kirschner: So one night, while were counting tips, which was a bunch of wet $1 bills, at 03:00 in the morning, one of my friends and fellow bartenders looked at me, and he was like, I really want to go see a lot of different places around the world. And I said, I do, too. And we, on a cocktail napkin, started just writing the names of different cities that we traveled to, and that sort of evolved into an itinerary. And the next thing I knew, I was packing up a backpack and setting off. And we had one rule, or I should say we had one guiding principle, which was we wanted to stay as far off the beaten path as possible. So at that time, many people that I knew were traveling to places like London or Rome or Paris.
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Jeff Kirschner: We went to sort of the most remote parts of Indonesia or very remote areas of India, Nepal, Southeast Asia. And I would tell you know, it may be one of the most valuable things I've ever done with my life. Being exposed to how other people live, it's an experience that I will treasure for as long as I live.
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Monica H. Kang: That's incredible, especially traveling back in the day. Just to highlight again was rare. And as you have pointed out, I mean, nowadays, I think, when people hear this, oh, you mean you use Google Maps and you figure it out. I'm like, no, no. I don't think that was the case. Tell us a little bit more of the nitty gritty what the day to day was like.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, I think therein lies the beauty of the experience. So there were no mobile phones. I don't want to say they didn't exist, but certainly nobody with a backpack had one. There was no, you know, people didn't walk around with laptops. You would go to, like, a cafe that had email. That would happen if you were lucky.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: The way you got around, or at least the way that most people that I knew got around, was with a guidebook. Most people use the guidebook called the Lonely Planet. And you would trade.
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Monica H. Kang: I remember those.
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Jeff Kirschner: So if you were leaving one place, you would often trade your guidebook for, let's say, Australia. If you were on your way to Indonesia, which is a common path for people traveling that part of the world, and you would give your australian guidebook to somebody who was coming to Australia from Indonesia, they would give their indonesian book to you, and that was how you got around. What was really fun and really magical was, let's say you would split up from your travel partners, which me and my two partners, we split up all the time. You might disappear from each other for two, three, six weeks, and you would reconnect simply by saying, I'm gonna be at this place somewhere between day one and day ten.
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Jeff Kirschner: I'll try and be there every day at 03:00 and if by some way you end up there between day one and day ten, we'll reconnect. Or you might ask somebody like, hey, did you see a guy who might be wearing a tank top, and he's got a big hat that he likes to wear, and he's got a guitar on the side of his backpack. And someone might say, like, I know exactly who you're talking about. They told me they were going to this place and they would be there for two weeks. And you know what? Inevitably, you would end up reconnecting with people. And there was something so wonderful about that, as opposed today, which is you text someone and tell them, like, I'm going to send you my exact coordinates and meet me.
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Jeff Kirschner: It's just that technology is wonderful, but it's also taken away a lot of the wonder of living.
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Monica H. Kang: No, appreciate you sharing that. I feel like for listeners who do have a glimpse of your present world, I feel like we're getting a little nitty gritty into your past to realize where your values and experiences and skills that you built that has helped you be the entrepreneur leader you are later on. But first, we want to continue on the trajectory of the past visits. And so building on that, you did come back to San Francisco in Oakland area and ended up including, I guess, the early retirement, ended up staying almost close to 25 years, which is quite a bit of time. I mean, so much as you pointed out, you've been there before the Internet era. So much has happened, continue to happen, and do so. And so I'm curious what happened after. And as you started several other businesses.
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Jeff Kirschner: I've noticed, well, it might be helpful for me to provide some context as to how I got involved in business and startups.
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Monica H. Kang: Yes, please.
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Jeff Kirschner: So during my time, when I was traveling, I discovered that I was really passionate about the art of story and the art of creating a narrative. Growing up, I didn't want to read. In fact, I hated reading. I was into sports. I was always trying to be out on a field. But when I was traveling, I had a lot of time. And I specifically remember the book I was reading. It's a book called another Roadside attraction by an author named Tom Robbins. And I remember having this feeling, which was, I want to do for other people what he's doing for me right now. And I had never had that feeling before. But for whatever reason, lying in a hammock in the middle of Malaysia, that's what happens.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so that sort of was the catalyst for me to learn more about what it meant to be creative, because that wasn't something I was aware of at all growing up. I wasn't an artist. I really wasn't a writer, didn't express or even explore any aspect of my creativity. I didn't even know there was something to tap into. And I had and still have a very dear friend who was in the world of advertising. And he said, you know, based on what I'm hearing you say, I think you would really love advertising. And I had no idea what that meant. I didn't know if that meant I was going to sit around and write jingles all day. I had no idea.
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Jeff Kirschner: But he explained to me that it was really this marriage of business and art and trying to tell a story in a really clear and concise and compelling way on behalf of that company. And so when I moved back to San Francisco, I came with, really, a mock portfolio of work, meaning I created a bunch of ads. I didn't have a paying client, I just brands. And I created ads like spec work, and I started shopping that around and I got really lucky. I landed a job at a world famous ad agency called Giant Day, which is responsible for a ton of apple work and a lot of iconic branding that you'd be familiar with. And what was so fascinating about that experience? I was there for about five years.
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Jeff Kirschner: What was so fascinating about that experience was that I was surrounded by people who were passionate about their craft, and I had never experienced that either. And there's something really inspiring about being around people who are passionate about their craft, whatever that craft is. There's a level of dedication and a level of joy and camaraderie that's just really fantastic to be part of. And so that was my experience first, you know, when I got back to the city and started on this career path, which, as I was explaining to you earlier, has really been a slalom. It has been anything but linear. And I was afforded the opportunity to work on really big brands like Levi's and place, Apple and others. And that was really exciting. And then the.com bubble, which was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It imploded.
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Jeff Kirschner: And I, along with so many other people, lost my job. And I was faced with a decision which was, do I continue to pursue the world of advertising or do I do something else? And I had another good friend who said, hey, you spend your whole day coming up with ideas for businesses. Have you ever thought about coming up with an idea for your own business? And I thought, no. And he's like, it's called a startup. I had no idea what that meant. I had no business background, but I knew I liked him, and I knew that he was inspiring to me. And so we would meet every morning at a coffee shop called Martha's on 24th in Noe Valley, San Francisco, and we would literally just throw out ideas to one another. There was no framework for it.
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Jeff Kirschner: We had no business sort of doing this, but we just did. And we came up with an idea, and suddenly I was off and running in the world of startups. And, you know, it's interesting to go from somebody who is sending you a paycheck every two weeks. Cause you're on their payroll to, I gotta figure out a way to make ends meet.
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Monica H. Kang: Oh, yeah, generate your own payroll, you.
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Jeff Kirschner: Know, to make a long story just a tiny bit longer. That was the beginning of my next 20 years of working in startups, and I've sort of been in that world ever since.
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Monica H. Kang: That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think one of the things that is always a humble reminder is just how when we look on the resume of somebody we look at, like, the flash of results, we don't realize how it starts, how somebody got into each of these different chapters and you humbly share. Sharing those different moments is a really powerful reminder that, like, hey, maybe just be curious, maybe just be a lookout because you never know where that next chapter could lead you to or next chapter you could start and you sharing how you didn't expect to explore all these places that have led you and also able to re tap into your strength.
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Monica H. Kang: I'm curious also, you've already hinted a little bit about this, but I'm curious also who are perhaps people, looking back, that you're grateful for and appreciative that you want to do a shout out that has helped you be who you are.
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Jeff Kirschner: I mean, there's so many. And what's interesting to me is that there are the people that I know that I could name, family members, my wife, my folks, my brother, who have always been there in support of and who understand what I came from and understand a lot about me. But then there's the people who, I don't know, right. The people that I might have met in a cafe or on a street corner or at a conference, but they shared something about their own experience that was almost a gift to me, a way that I could say and understand, like, here's how this person has navigated a path, and what can I take from that and turn into my own?
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Jeff Kirschner: And there have been so many of those individuals who are sort of mentors in a way, but they were only there for a moment in my life, and I can't. I don't know their names. Or maybe some people, I did know their names, and now I've forgotten, but they may have shared, like, a pearl of wisdom with me. I'll give you one example. So if you remember, I said that when I moved to San Francisco, I started bartending. And the first place that I bartended at was this crazy club. I mean, packed every night, big dance club, lots of people, everybody waving money when you did that, right? When people actually, like, waived money in cash. And it was total debauchery and really fun. When I got hired there, I got hired as what's called a bar back.
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Jeff Kirschner: The bar back is the person who is behind the bartenders, making sure that the bartenders have the juices filled and the glassware that they need and all the liquor is ready to go. So it's my first night and I'm like a dough in headlights. It is hundreds of people. Like I said, kind of crazy. Music is pumping. And this one bartender, I'm definitely overwhelmed by how much is going on. And this one bartender, cool as a cucumber, just turns to me and says, you need to know what I need before I know I need it. And that piece of advice, the minute he said it, I got it. And that piece of advice has stuck with me, as you can tell, all these years.
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Jeff Kirschner: And I actually think it is one of the best pieces of advices, pieces of advice that I utilized in the world of entrepreneurship and startups, because so much of what startups are trying to do is to know what somebody needs before they even know they need it. So that's an example that is really.
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Monica H. Kang: Powerful and certainly a message to look back at. And in fact, let's bring back to now the present with literary and the work that you do. Tell us back to how you first started.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I was never an active environmentalist. I was never, as I told you, I grew up wanting to play sports. I wasn't a scout. I didn't go for hikes in the woods. It just wasn't who I was. But I was living in Oakland at the time, and I was working on a screenplay, and at the end of many writing days, I just needed a break and to clear my head. And so I lived in this area in Oakland where the back of my house sort of opened up into the woods. And so I took my two kids on a walk in the woods to this area that we would go to all the time in a place called Sozel Creek.
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Jeff Kirschner: For those of you listening, that might know that area in Oakland, and my daughter, who was four, and my son, who was two, they noticed this plastic tub of cat litter lying in a creek, and they looked at me and they were like, daddy, that doesn't go there. And I can't tell you how many times I've said that line as I've told this story forever. Stay with me. But that sort of innocent comment, spoken by a four year old girl, was an eye opening moment for me. Here I was living in the Bay area, and it's a place known for being environmentally progressive and ecologically mindful. And yet all of a sudden, everywhere I looked, all I could see was trash. And it was one of those things that once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so when my daughter made that comment, it reminded me of when I was a kid, I used to go to summer camp in upstate New York at a place called Grant Lake Camp. And on the morning of visiting day, the camp director would say, quick, everybody go pick up five pieces of trash. And so you'd have a couple hundred kids each picking up five pieces of litter. And within a few minutes, we had a spotless camp.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so I thought, well, what if you could apply the crowdsourced model not to just a camp, but to the entire planet? And that was the inspiration for starting literati.
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Monica H. Kang: That's amazing. And I'm hearing kind of going back to the bartender story that you have shared. You know, how do we look out for what other people might need before? This is kind of the insight that you've gained from the question and comment your daughter has shared. It's still a whole other degree than to build a business, to build a successful one, and to the global degree that you have, tell me a little bit more how you knew that. Like, okay, maybe this is something more than just an idea. And then what helped you build literality the way it is today?
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Jeff Kirschner: So there's a lot to unpack there. Going back to that specific piece of advice about knowing what people need before they know they need it, I think in some cases that's true, but I also think that there's a risk building a business based on the belief that you know what people need before they know they need it, as opposed to really going through a rigorous customer discovery process, really identifying a pain point, getting out of your head and into the market, understanding what problem someone has, and not just what problem they have, but what have they done to try to solve it, have they tried spending money or resources against it? What has worked? What has failed?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because if you're trying to build a business which is different than just trying to build an idea that changes the world or solves a problem, and there's merit to all of it, but there are really, I think, tried and true methods now that are worth your time. Like a customer discovery process, like ensuring you have product market fit before ever doing things like raising capital, building a team, building product. Because if you don't, you run the risk of wasting a ton of time and money. And I can say this with a lot of clarity, because I wasted a ton of time and money. I've done it the wrong way. I've made the mistakes multiple times. There is truth to knowing what the world needs before it knows it needs it. But I don't think that you can say that in a vacuum.
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Jeff Kirschner: I think it has to be complemented by real research that you undertake.
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Monica H. Kang: What mistakes did you make?
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Jeff Kirschner: We don't have enough time on this.
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Monica H. Kang: Call if you highlight a few.
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Jeff Kirschner: So at a high level, I think I made the mistake. So let me back up. The mission of literati is to create a litter free world. And the way literati started after that moment with my children in the woods was that I took a photograph of a cigarette butt using Instagram. So to sort of level set, this was in really 2012. So Instagram was a popular platform. It had several hundred million people, but so certainly not what it is today. And I took a photo of this cigarette butt just because I didn't really have an idea, but I took that photo, and then I took a photo of, let's say, a coke bottle cap and a corona bottle and another cigarette. But I was sort of photographing this litter on the ground, and I noticed two things happening to me.
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Jeff Kirschner: The first was that litter became artistic simply because of the power of Instagram. And because it became artistic, it became approachable, right? Oh, that could be a cool photo op if I position that correctly. The second thing that happened to me was at the end of a week, I had 50 or 60 photos on my phone, and I had properly discarded every single piece I had photographed. So I realized that I was keeping a record of the positive impact I was having on the planet. Now, I did not know what I could do with that information. I thought it was kind of cool. I thought it was interesting. So I started sharing that with others. And over time, literati, which started as a hashtag on Instagram, started growing. Other people were using the hashtag in photographing trash. And that's when we found out.
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Jeff Kirschner: And by we, I mean I knew somebody that was smarter than I was and could figure this out, found out that each photo had all this data around it. Like, I didn't know anything about data. I didn't know anything about business, knew that my kids saw something in the woods.
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Monica H. Kang: Yeah.
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Jeff Kirschner: But they showed me, like, if you took all the photographs that had this hashtag, we could extract, like, the geotag, the latitude and longitude where every single piece was photographed, plot all those things on a map, and we could also look at the other hashtags. So if somebody actually wrote, like, Hashtag Coca Cola, hashtag aluminum, hashtag can, well, now we're starting to see that we could parse out all the brands, we could parse out the objects, we could parse out the materials. And so slowly but surely, this nascent database started building of this litter, and that grew and grew. And then we had enough demand that we made the decision to build an iOS android application. And now I'm leapfrogging years here. But it's sort of. You asked the question, at what point did I know there was something more?
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think there ever was a point. I think that there were signs along the way, some I probably saw and some I probably missed, that suggested, hey, here's maybe the next place you should try to travel to on this entrepreneurial path. And ten years later, I'm still doing that. I've made so many mistakes along the way, whether they were product mistakes, finance mistakes, hiring mistakes, firing mistakes in the press. But that's been just my journey. And I think it comes back to, like, there's a couple things that have kept me going, but one of the things that you said that has kept me going is that sense of curiosity, like, where might this go next? But maybe I'll end this by saying, again, the path has not been linear.
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Jeff Kirschner: It has been clumpy and rocky, and it is a constant two steps forward and ten steps back. But I'm taking another step.
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Monica H. Kang: And I do want to credit that, because for listeners contacts, I have the pleasure of knowing Jeff personally. We connected at a community leadership program called Hive way back in 2016. So he feels like a million miles ago. Back then, he was in San Francisco. Now he has moved to North Carolina. So we'll chat about that in a little bit, too. But one of the things I was really inspired, as you're hearing in this conversation, is just his pure honesty and authenticity into his past, present, and future. And I think often as leaders, we don't talk enough about it. I appreciate you sharing about whether it was your bar, attending time to your time, backpacking to the entrepreneurship, and now the current work.
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Monica H. Kang: Often I feel like as leaders, we like to only talk about the fancy success and not enough about, like, kind of the, you know, that part I wasn't clear. Like, we tend to, like, kind of put that under the rug. And I appreciate you sharing that. No, those were all equally important parts of my chapter. It helped me be who I am. And so I'm curious, what would you share to, like young Jeff, way back when, before all of this, what would you want to share with him? Knowing where you are today, that's a good one.
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Jeff Kirschner: One lesson or one piece of advice I would share is, it's going to take longer than you ever imagined. Another one is to slow down. This is going to sound ironic, but one would be to slow down. So many people, certainly in the world of startups, are fail fast, quick iteration. Speed is your ally and those are all true. But for me, there's a lot of value in just slowing down. Those are a couple things that I would share and maybe one last one.
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Monica H. Kang: Yeah, just.
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Jeff Kirschner: Just try to enjoy it. Life is not worth the constant stress and anxiety that so many founders and early stage startup people put themselves under. There's a lot more to life than whether you raise a seed round of capital. Even though at the moment I know that it feels like that's the only thing in life, it's not.
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Monica H. Kang: No, that's really meaningful. Speaking of making sure you slow down, I'm curious how you slow down and how you make the time to take care of yourself, because this world is unfortunately still full of litter and so it's keeping you and your team very busy.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, I don't do a good enough job of slowing down. It's a practice. You know, I try to make sure that I'm really present with my family, although I know I can do a better job of that as well. I have a pretty active yoga practice and for me there's a great phrase. I don't remember where I heard it, but someone talked about the concept of stacking days. So I don't really set, you know, with that sort of practice, I don't set goals. I just tried to stack days. Like today is just another day to practice. And I believe in the idea that those incremental steps compound over time. Yeah, that's how I kind of look at it.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Climate change. And of course, as we celebrate Earth Day in environment, as you have pointed out, there's just so much to catch up. Stay updated, be informed. But as you have pointed out, you don't have to be an expert to be a leader and be involved. You have been a role model and really show that if you're determined and have a vision and want to start, it is possible. But curious, what are ways how you stay up to date. Because I feel like there's still so much going on and there's often misinformation. How do you make sure that you're updated, informed and making sure that you're making a positive difference?
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Jeff Kirschner: I actually think that misinformation is going to be one of the biggest challenges that we face collectively. It's something I talk about with my children all the time. I think it is a real challenge for. I mean, it's here now, but for the next generation. I can't really even envision how difficult it's going to be to understand the source of your information and verify and validate that it's legitimate. So what I try to do is ensure first that the sources that I'm getting my information from are reputable. And then I just try to listen and read and talk to others. I find that very enjoyable and I find a lot of value.
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Jeff Kirschner: And just, again, it comes back to this theme of curiosity, just hearing about what other people are doing, what has worked, what hasn't, what are the new experiments that are going on, what new ideas are being connected that, you know, may seem totally disconnected on their face, but people are trying to apply them in new ways. That's how I try to stay on top of what's going on. And I also accept that there's just too much information and I will never really be up to date.
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Monica H. Kang: Speaking of recent trends in news, what are some exciting changes and trends, innovations that's going on in climate change that you're excited about? I feel like there's so much going on with AI, machine learning as well, and how that impacting in all industries, including how we think about climate change and support.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. What I've noticed, and I can't remember in my lifetime if this has ever happened with sort of a global size problem. I'm sure it has, but I can't think of a moment. What I've noticed is that the younger generation, the youth, are truly activated and they're not just sitting on the sidelines. They are actually doing things that can make a difference because, and I think there's a, I think that's a byproduct of two main things. Number one, there is a desire, right? They are motivated because our generation, my generation has screwed things up royally. And they're like, we aren't sitting by on the sidelines. We're not asking you for permission. We are going to take our destiny into our own hands and be the change that we want to see. That's one thing.
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Jeff Kirschner: The second thing is that the tools are now readily available. You can do so much without a lot of money to really build a prototype, to build a team, to start to build a little app that can grow into a bigger app. There's this sort of merging of these two tidal waves. The technology is now much more accessible to many more people. And unfortunately, the problem has gotten so grave that fortunately more people are jumping in and, you know, rolling up their sleeves. So I think that's a trend if you will, that I am really encouraged by.
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Monica H. Kang: What would you say also, skills wise, that will be even more important for those who want to be a better leader in this field.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I'm biased in this one. So the easy answer is, or answer, and this is absolutely true, is that coding and people who can write the AI prompts so that the machines can give us back really solid insight and answers, those skills will absolutely be needed. And things like design and product development and program and product management, I mean, all of those things remain true. But the one area that I think has become even more important, and again, I'm biased, is storytelling. Because I think at the end of the day, what gets people moving, what gets people inspired, what touches people in their heart, is a story well told. And so the ability to craft that narrative and deliver it in a way that really speaks to someone and meets them where they are is a blend of art and science. And it's.
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think it's tough to do, but I think it's tough to do well.
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Monica H. Kang: How can we do better storytelling?
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Jeff Kirschner: Tell more stories. It's like anything else, right? The more practice, the better you get. Study the masters. Understand the principles of great storytelling. Those ingredients, those recipes are there for people to learn and to understand and to truly master. And it's about understanding those principles. They're not rules, they're principles, but understanding them in a way that moves the audience. I think that is going to become increasingly important because it's. It's not just moving. You know, your audience might be. You're trying to move people to join your team, you're trying to move people to raise money. You're trying to move somebody to join your community. That skill is necessary in so many aspects of building a movement, building an organization, building a business, or just getting. Getting people to listen.
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Monica H. Kang: That's so true. No, thank you for highlighting that. Speaking of stories, I want to revisit your very beginning of literality that you shared about your daughter's comment and how that has led. Ten plus years. Congratulations. I feel like ten years is like teenage years of a business is like a milestone. So you're way past that. But that also means your children are now teenagers. I'm curious how it feels. They've seen the different chapters of your business and have grown up with literary. Like, how do they now feel about litter? And I wonder if you do have conversations and remember way back when and where we are now and how that feels when you look at your daughter and son now.
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Jeff Kirschner: So the truth is that if I were to say anything about literati around the dinner table, they, at this point, just roll their eyes. We get it, dad. Great. They've seen it. All right. They've seen the times where I'm really excited about something. They've seen the times where I am incredibly down, frustrated, depressed, wondering how the next day will turn out. They've been riding shotgun through this process. My wife has really ridden front seat shotgun. You know, she. I think there's not enough credit given to those who surround the leader, those who surround the entrepreneur. The support network is so vital. They pick you up when you're down. They give you the hard love. Sometimes they just give you a hug because that's what you need and don't ask any questions.
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Jeff Kirschner: But I think maybe if I could change one thing, or one of the things I would change is, I think more awareness and more recognition needs to. The spotlight needs to be shown on the support people just as much as it is on the leader. So, yeah, my family, my folks, my brother, all the people I listed, friends, they've heard me complain and cry and celebrate.
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Monica H. Kang: Love that, no, thank you for sharing that. I think, as you pointed out, you know, we're here because of not only our experiences and the skills that we built, but because of the people, most importantly, the people that continue to come on this journey of life with us. And so appreciate you highlighting so. And speaking of people, one of the things that we want to continue to learn is expanding who we can learn from. And so during my curious Monica show, I asked all my guests if they can enlighten us with three new people that we can learn from. And for this month, because we are celebrating Earth Day, we'll love. Jeff, if you can recommend three people who happen to be working in either climate change or sustainability that you admire, that we should learn from. And, folks, you know the drill.
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Monica H. Kang: I will have the name and contact in the show notes, so that way you can follow up and learn from them as well. Jeff, curious. Who are three people you want to shout out?
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. The truth is there's probably 300 people I'd love to shout out.
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Monica H. Kang: And we'll make sure we'll add more in the notes. But if we have to highlight three.
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Jeff Kirschner: Verbally, I think what I'd really like to do is, for the moment, highlight one. It's a gentleman named Chris Gaither. And Chris is a coach who is focused on supporting sustainability leaders. Chris has a very storied background working at Apple for a very long time in their sustainability department as a leader. But he found a calling in coaching sustainability leaders who often don't have the resources they need and are often, I should say, constantly faced with overwhelming problems that they're trying to solve. And he has been a real spark of positive, of positivity and a real bright light for so many people in that world. I owe him a debt of gratitude for what he's done for me. And he's somebody I think other people would really benefit from just listening to.
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Monica H. Kang: I love that. Well, we'll make sure that we have his information so that way we can follow up and learn from him. Thank you so much. Jeff. One thing I was also very curious. You know, you mentioned briefly a few times, but would love to do dig a little bit deeper is how you manage your stress and also your downtimes. It's very normal. And I think one of the things that we don't get to recognize enough is has entrepreneurs and founders. It happens a lot more than people expect. I think the key is how we stand back up. So I'm curious how you navigate those moments and what you do that helps you.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, so I, there are three things, but I want to say that I have it every day. Like, I. It is a constant. It is a constant in my life, which isn't a good thing, but it just is. So the first is. So I have three. I call them the tools in my toolbox. So the first one is, I oftentimes phone a friend. I find it very healthy to just talk about it, and I have a number of trusted friends who I talk to you all the time about the stresses that I'm going through that include anything with my family or personally or business wise, career wise. But phoning a friend, getting it out of my system, is really helpful. The second is changing my physiological state. Typically, for me, that's exercise. Any sort of movement, though, is really helpful.
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Jeff Kirschner: Some people will, you know, cold plunges are very popular now. And, yes, that absolutely works for me as well. But where I tend to go is movement, and typically exercise. Yoga being, for me, the primary form. And the third and final one is music. So music seems to just snap me out of whatever mind state I'm in and bring me into another one. And 99 times out of 100, it's a really positive change. So that's how I do it. Those three things. Phone a friend, movement of some sort, and listen to some good tunes.
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Monica H. Kang: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. It has been such a joy to have you here. You shared so many wisdom and insights. I know many would want to re listen and make sure they type tap deeper into this two quick final questions as we wrap up. And I can't believe how fast time has gone by. One, what's oh, you've shared a lot of different wisdoms, but what is one final wisdom you want to share with our listeners, wherever they are, in their chapter as an innovator?
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Jeff Kirschner: I guess it's funny, I just got off a call. I've been coaching some youth, some younger innovators, and the one piece of advice that I just left this one young woman with was, you're going to make mistakes and that's okay. That's hard to get comfortable with. But finding, I guess that's it. Like finding comfort in the discomfort is a key component to moving on. Yeah.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Love it. No, thank you very much. The final question is, what's the best way we can stay in touch with you? You can find me on the various social media platforms or on just jeff@litterati.org. But Jeff, you have any preference in how folks follow up with you?
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Jeff Kirschner: You can find me on the various social media platforms or on just jeffiterati.org dot.
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Monica H. Kang: Perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Jeff, for joining us, folks. Thank you again for tuning in for another conversation. We're going to continue to celebrate Earth Day this month and we're so grateful you're here. So come back again next week and we will have another story. We'll see you later. Thank you.
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Monica H. Kang: Storytelling as a top skills indeed. I think we've got a lot of new stories to learn and reflect on as Jeff has shared in his journey today. Thank you so much for joining us in today's conversation. And thank you all for joining us as we continue to celebrate innovators around the world and how we can do differently by hearing their stories. So join us again next week. This is your host, Monica Kang from Innovators Box, and I hope you have a great day and we'll see you soon.
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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for tuning into today's episode. This is your host, Monica Kang, founder and CEO of InnovatorsBox. I hope this has inspired you and empowered you to know that your voice and stories matter. Audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lehmart, Audio Engineering Support by Ravi Lad, website and marketing support by Kree Pandey, Graphics Support by Lea Orsini, Christine Eribal, Origin of Music by InnovatorsBox Studios which you can also check out in any music platform and executive producing, writing, hosting and interviewing by me, Monica Kang, founder and CEO of InnovatorsBox. Please give us feedback, questions, thoughts we want to hear from you. And a little shout out to the wonderful team who made this possible today.
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Speaker 4: Audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lamord Audio Engineering Support by Ravi Ladd website and marketing support by Creep Graphics Support by Leah Orsini Christine Eribal Origin of Music by Innovators Box Studios which you can also check out in any music platform and executive producing, writing, hosting and interviewing by me, Monica King, founder and CEO of Innovators Box please give us feedback, questions, thoughts we want to hear from you. Send a hello@curiousmonica.com. Have a wonderful day and we'll see you soon. Thank you.
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Monica H. Kang: Sometimes you meet people and there's just something deeper in what they provide and how they see the world. And when you do get to know them, you realize it's not a coincidence why you felt that way. It's probably because they have experienced quite a level of depth and diverse experience that permits them to stay humble and curious about their surroundings. And this is kind of the way how I would describe my meeting with Jeff many years ago at a community event where we instantly became friends and acquaintance.
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Monica H. Kang: And not only was I inspired by his work at Literati, which we'll talk about, and how he is on the mission of building a global community, working to create a litter free planet and world, I was also really inspired by his approach to leadership, entrepreneurship, and most certainly how he got to be where he is. Because he is here to tell you dont have to start by figuring everything out from the beginning. In fact, his very start into literati, as you will quickly learn, was starting with a curiosity, an observation he had with a conversation with his daughter, who made the comment, this doesnt feel right here. Thats right. That was the comment she made when she noticed a trash in the middle of their walk in the woods. And sure, that is not supposed to be there.
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Monica H. Kang: Indeed, Jeff wondered, geez, if somebody, as my daughter could point out, there are a lot of litters around the floor, in the grass, everywhere, then what can we do better? And as youll quickly find out, his curiosity that led him to build literati was something that started very early on in his career, being curious about everything. So as we continue to celebrate Earth Day, I am so excited to have my friend Jeff here to share about his journey, not only about literary, but his whole philosophy and how we should approach life and problem solving. Meet Jeff.
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Monica H. Kang: So very excited to have my friend Jeff here. Jeff, welcome to the show. First question I have for you is I'm curious if you remember way back when you were a child, what were your dreams and what did you wanted to do when you grew up?
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Jeff Kirschner: Oh, I absolutely remember. I wanted to be a professional hockey player.
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Monica H. Kang: Oh, why?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because I grew up in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia Flyers were and still are a big team and a big deal. And I just looked up to them and thought that was the greatest thing in the world, and that's what I wanted to be.
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Monica H. Kang: What changed?
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Jeff Kirschner: Well, I wasn't good enough. That's for starters. You know, in a way, nothing's changed. I think if you told me that I could still be a professional hockey player, I would absolutely sign up for that right now. But I think the realities of life set in at a very early age, and I realized that, yeah, it's not what I'm meant to do, but that was one. And if I think back even earlier than that, there was definitely a time where I wanted to be a fireman.
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Monica H. Kang: Why?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because I remember there was some. I was enamored with the big red truck going by and this idea that you could go fight fires and save people, and there was something really inspiring to me about that.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Well, in a way, you are kind of being the firefighter in different ways, which we will speak about in a little bit. Just instead of fire, you're tackling planet earth to support in a different way. Let's dive into some of the early chapters. And so Philadelphia, that's where you started. You went to school at Ann harbor. How did that feel? Was that the first time you left your family?
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Jeff Kirschner: It was the first time I left my family for a longer period of time. I had taken, you know, some summers here and there where I spent time. Like, for example, I was. I cleaned boats in Nantucket for a while.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: I had some really interesting, unfortunate experiences, but that was a moment where, yeah, I stepped out of my comfort zone and went away and loved every single minute of it.
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Monica H. Kang: And how did that study influence how you started your career in San Francisco area?
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think it did, which is why I ask. I say that a little bit tongue in cheek, but the reality is that when I graduated from Michigan, I had no idea what I wanted to do, other than I knew I didn't want to leave. I wanted to stay in school. I wanted to continue evolving the life that I had built for myself there. I. Looking back, I had a ton of fun and made some wonderful connections. I didn't take advantage of the resources that the university had, and that's a regret. I was a good student. Not great, not bad. But that place offers so much, and, yeah, I probably could have taken advantage more than I did. Part of that, I would say, is I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't really have a column.
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Jeff Kirschner: I wasn't passionate about anything, and therefore, I didn't really have anything that I was really dying to apply myself to. But, you know, I ended up leaving school, graduating, and applying to law school. And I like to say that you apply to law school when you have no idea what else you want to do, and that's what I did.
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Monica H. Kang: And that took you to San Francisco?
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. And nowhere near law tell us more. Yeah. So I was very lucky that I had an uncle who opened a lot of law doors for me. He was a well known attorney, and so he made a bunch of calls, and I was welcomed with open arms to a bunch of different firms. And here I was sort of living in San Francisco, being invited to these different partners offices, and I really didn't like anything I was here. I was ignorant. I was selfish. I thought, like, this is not a world that I want to be in. And I really got out before I ever got in. In fact, I had applied to law schools. I had taken the LSAT, and I really just stopped even pursuing it at all. I knew that this just wasn't the path for me at that time.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I started bartending. Cause I needed to pay the bills. And I had done that in college, and I started teaching young kids how to play soccer because I had also done that in college. And so here I was sort of living in northern California. This was during a time before the Internet was really sort of used by the mass market. And it was a really freeing time for me because when you grow up on the east coast, there's a magic to California. Like, whoa, you moved to California. And I was experiencing that, and I look back on that with really fond memories.
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Monica H. Kang: And at some point, you also travel. What happened, and why did you decide to suddenly travel for a year?
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Jeff Kirschner: So one night, while were counting tips, which was a bunch of wet $1 bills, at 03:00 in the morning, one of my friends and fellow bartenders looked at me, and he was like, I really want to go see a lot of different places around the world. And I said, I do, too. And we, on a cocktail napkin, started just writing the names of different cities that we traveled to, and that sort of evolved into an itinerary. And the next thing I knew, I was packing up a backpack and setting off. And we had one rule, or I should say we had one guiding principle, which was we wanted to stay as far off the beaten path as possible. So at that time, many people that I knew were traveling to places like London or Rome or Paris.
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Jeff Kirschner: We went to sort of the most remote parts of Indonesia or very remote areas of India, Nepal, Southeast Asia. And I would tell you know, it may be one of the most valuable things I've ever done with my life. Being exposed to how other people live, it's an experience that I will treasure for as long as I live.
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Monica H. Kang: That's incredible, especially traveling back in the day. Just to highlight again was rare. And as you have pointed out, I mean, nowadays, I think, when people hear this, oh, you mean you use Google Maps and you figure it out. I'm like, no, no. I don't think that was the case. Tell us a little bit more of the nitty gritty what the day to day was like.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, I think therein lies the beauty of the experience. So there were no mobile phones. I don't want to say they didn't exist, but certainly nobody with a backpack had one. There was no, you know, people didn't walk around with laptops. You would go to, like, a cafe that had email. That would happen if you were lucky.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: The way you got around, or at least the way that most people that I knew got around, was with a guidebook. Most people use the guidebook called the Lonely Planet. And you would trade.
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Monica H. Kang: I remember those.
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Jeff Kirschner: So if you were leaving one place, you would often trade your guidebook for, let's say, Australia. If you were on your way to Indonesia, which is a common path for people traveling that part of the world, and you would give your australian guidebook to somebody who was coming to Australia from Indonesia, they would give their indonesian book to you, and that was how you got around. What was really fun and really magical was, let's say you would split up from your travel partners, which me and my two partners, we split up all the time. You might disappear from each other for two, three, six weeks, and you would reconnect simply by saying, I'm gonna be at this place somewhere between day one and day ten.
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Jeff Kirschner: I'll try and be there every day at 03:00 and if by some way you end up there between day one and day ten, we'll reconnect. Or you might ask somebody like, hey, did you see a guy who might be wearing a tank top, and he's got a big hat that he likes to wear, and he's got a guitar on the side of his backpack. And someone might say, like, I know exactly who you're talking about. They told me they were going to this place and they would be there for two weeks. And you know what? Inevitably, you would end up reconnecting with people. And there was something so wonderful about that, as opposed today, which is you text someone and tell them, like, I'm going to send you my exact coordinates and meet me.
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Jeff Kirschner: It's just that technology is wonderful, but it's also taken away a lot of the wonder of living.
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Monica H. Kang: No, appreciate you sharing that. I feel like for listeners who do have a glimpse of your present world, I feel like we're getting a little nitty gritty into your past to realize where your values and experiences and skills that you built that has helped you be the entrepreneur leader you are later on. But first, we want to continue on the trajectory of the past visits. And so building on that, you did come back to San Francisco in Oakland area and ended up including, I guess, the early retirement, ended up staying almost close to 25 years, which is quite a bit of time. I mean, so much as you pointed out, you've been there before the Internet era. So much has happened, continue to happen, and do so. And so I'm curious what happened after. And as you started several other businesses.
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Jeff Kirschner: I've noticed, well, it might be helpful for me to provide some context as to how I got involved in business and startups.
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Monica H. Kang: Yes, please.
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Jeff Kirschner: So during my time, when I was traveling, I discovered that I was really passionate about the art of story and the art of creating a narrative. Growing up, I didn't want to read. In fact, I hated reading. I was into sports. I was always trying to be out on a field. But when I was traveling, I had a lot of time. And I specifically remember the book I was reading. It's a book called another Roadside attraction by an author named Tom Robbins. And I remember having this feeling, which was, I want to do for other people what he's doing for me right now. And I had never had that feeling before. But for whatever reason, lying in a hammock in the middle of Malaysia, that's what happens.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so that sort of was the catalyst for me to learn more about what it meant to be creative, because that wasn't something I was aware of at all growing up. I wasn't an artist. I really wasn't a writer, didn't express or even explore any aspect of my creativity. I didn't even know there was something to tap into. And I had and still have a very dear friend who was in the world of advertising. And he said, you know, based on what I'm hearing you say, I think you would really love advertising. And I had no idea what that meant. I didn't know if that meant I was going to sit around and write jingles all day. I had no idea.
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Jeff Kirschner: But he explained to me that it was really this marriage of business and art and trying to tell a story in a really clear and concise and compelling way on behalf of that company. And so when I moved back to San Francisco, I came with, really, a mock portfolio of work, meaning I created a bunch of ads. I didn't have a paying client, I just brands. And I created ads like spec work, and I started shopping that around and I got really lucky. I landed a job at a world famous ad agency called Giant Day, which is responsible for a ton of apple work and a lot of iconic branding that you'd be familiar with. And what was so fascinating about that experience? I was there for about five years.
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Jeff Kirschner: What was so fascinating about that experience was that I was surrounded by people who were passionate about their craft, and I had never experienced that either. And there's something really inspiring about being around people who are passionate about their craft, whatever that craft is. There's a level of dedication and a level of joy and camaraderie that's just really fantastic to be part of. And so that was my experience first, you know, when I got back to the city and started on this career path, which, as I was explaining to you earlier, has really been a slalom. It has been anything but linear. And I was afforded the opportunity to work on really big brands like Levi's and place, Apple and others. And that was really exciting. And then the.com bubble, which was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It imploded.
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Jeff Kirschner: And I, along with so many other people, lost my job. And I was faced with a decision which was, do I continue to pursue the world of advertising or do I do something else? And I had another good friend who said, hey, you spend your whole day coming up with ideas for businesses. Have you ever thought about coming up with an idea for your own business? And I thought, no. And he's like, it's called a startup. I had no idea what that meant. I had no business background, but I knew I liked him, and I knew that he was inspiring to me. And so we would meet every morning at a coffee shop called Martha's on 24th in Noe Valley, San Francisco, and we would literally just throw out ideas to one another. There was no framework for it.
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Jeff Kirschner: We had no business sort of doing this, but we just did. And we came up with an idea, and suddenly I was off and running in the world of startups. And, you know, it's interesting to go from somebody who is sending you a paycheck every two weeks. Cause you're on their payroll to, I gotta figure out a way to make ends meet.
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Monica H. Kang: Oh, yeah, generate your own payroll, you.
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Jeff Kirschner: Know, to make a long story just a tiny bit longer. That was the beginning of my next 20 years of working in startups, and I've sort of been in that world ever since.
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Monica H. Kang: That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think one of the things that is always a humble reminder is just how when we look on the resume of somebody we look at, like, the flash of results, we don't realize how it starts, how somebody got into each of these different chapters and you humbly share. Sharing those different moments is a really powerful reminder that, like, hey, maybe just be curious, maybe just be a lookout because you never know where that next chapter could lead you to or next chapter you could start and you sharing how you didn't expect to explore all these places that have led you and also able to re tap into your strength.
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Monica H. Kang: I'm curious also, you've already hinted a little bit about this, but I'm curious also who are perhaps people, looking back, that you're grateful for and appreciative that you want to do a shout out that has helped you be who you are.
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Jeff Kirschner: I mean, there's so many. And what's interesting to me is that there are the people that I know that I could name, family members, my wife, my folks, my brother, who have always been there in support of and who understand what I came from and understand a lot about me. But then there's the people who, I don't know, right. The people that I might have met in a cafe or on a street corner or at a conference, but they shared something about their own experience that was almost a gift to me, a way that I could say and understand, like, here's how this person has navigated a path, and what can I take from that and turn into my own?
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Jeff Kirschner: And there have been so many of those individuals who are sort of mentors in a way, but they were only there for a moment in my life, and I can't. I don't know their names. Or maybe some people, I did know their names, and now I've forgotten, but they may have shared, like, a pearl of wisdom with me. I'll give you one example. So if you remember, I said that when I moved to San Francisco, I started bartending. And the first place that I bartended at was this crazy club. I mean, packed every night, big dance club, lots of people, everybody waving money when you did that, right? When people actually, like, waived money in cash. And it was total debauchery and really fun. When I got hired there, I got hired as what's called a bar back.
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Jeff Kirschner: The bar back is the person who is behind the bartenders, making sure that the bartenders have the juices filled and the glassware that they need and all the liquor is ready to go. So it's my first night and I'm like a dough in headlights. It is hundreds of people. Like I said, kind of crazy. Music is pumping. And this one bartender, I'm definitely overwhelmed by how much is going on. And this one bartender, cool as a cucumber, just turns to me and says, you need to know what I need before I know I need it. And that piece of advice, the minute he said it, I got it. And that piece of advice has stuck with me, as you can tell, all these years.
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Jeff Kirschner: And I actually think it is one of the best pieces of advices, pieces of advice that I utilized in the world of entrepreneurship and startups, because so much of what startups are trying to do is to know what somebody needs before they even know they need it. So that's an example that is really.
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Monica H. Kang: Powerful and certainly a message to look back at. And in fact, let's bring back to now the present with literary and the work that you do. Tell us back to how you first started.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I was never an active environmentalist. I was never, as I told you, I grew up wanting to play sports. I wasn't a scout. I didn't go for hikes in the woods. It just wasn't who I was. But I was living in Oakland at the time, and I was working on a screenplay, and at the end of many writing days, I just needed a break and to clear my head. And so I lived in this area in Oakland where the back of my house sort of opened up into the woods. And so I took my two kids on a walk in the woods to this area that we would go to all the time in a place called Sozel Creek.
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Jeff Kirschner: For those of you listening, that might know that area in Oakland, and my daughter, who was four, and my son, who was two, they noticed this plastic tub of cat litter lying in a creek, and they looked at me and they were like, daddy, that doesn't go there. And I can't tell you how many times I've said that line as I've told this story forever. Stay with me. But that sort of innocent comment, spoken by a four year old girl, was an eye opening moment for me. Here I was living in the Bay area, and it's a place known for being environmentally progressive and ecologically mindful. And yet all of a sudden, everywhere I looked, all I could see was trash. And it was one of those things that once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so when my daughter made that comment, it reminded me of when I was a kid, I used to go to summer camp in upstate New York at a place called Grant Lake Camp. And on the morning of visiting day, the camp director would say, quick, everybody go pick up five pieces of trash. And so you'd have a couple hundred kids each picking up five pieces of litter. And within a few minutes, we had a spotless camp.
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Monica H. Kang: Wow.
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Jeff Kirschner: And so I thought, well, what if you could apply the crowdsourced model not to just a camp, but to the entire planet? And that was the inspiration for starting literati.
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Monica H. Kang: That's amazing. And I'm hearing kind of going back to the bartender story that you have shared. You know, how do we look out for what other people might need before? This is kind of the insight that you've gained from the question and comment your daughter has shared. It's still a whole other degree than to build a business, to build a successful one, and to the global degree that you have, tell me a little bit more how you knew that. Like, okay, maybe this is something more than just an idea. And then what helped you build literality the way it is today?
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Jeff Kirschner: So there's a lot to unpack there. Going back to that specific piece of advice about knowing what people need before they know they need it, I think in some cases that's true, but I also think that there's a risk building a business based on the belief that you know what people need before they know they need it, as opposed to really going through a rigorous customer discovery process, really identifying a pain point, getting out of your head and into the market, understanding what problem someone has, and not just what problem they have, but what have they done to try to solve it, have they tried spending money or resources against it? What has worked? What has failed?
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Jeff Kirschner: Because if you're trying to build a business which is different than just trying to build an idea that changes the world or solves a problem, and there's merit to all of it, but there are really, I think, tried and true methods now that are worth your time. Like a customer discovery process, like ensuring you have product market fit before ever doing things like raising capital, building a team, building product. Because if you don't, you run the risk of wasting a ton of time and money. And I can say this with a lot of clarity, because I wasted a ton of time and money. I've done it the wrong way. I've made the mistakes multiple times. There is truth to knowing what the world needs before it knows it needs it. But I don't think that you can say that in a vacuum.
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Jeff Kirschner: I think it has to be complemented by real research that you undertake.
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Monica H. Kang: What mistakes did you make?
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Jeff Kirschner: We don't have enough time on this.
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Monica H. Kang: Call if you highlight a few.
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Jeff Kirschner: So at a high level, I think I made the mistake. So let me back up. The mission of literati is to create a litter free world. And the way literati started after that moment with my children in the woods was that I took a photograph of a cigarette butt using Instagram. So to sort of level set, this was in really 2012. So Instagram was a popular platform. It had several hundred million people, but so certainly not what it is today. And I took a photo of this cigarette butt just because I didn't really have an idea, but I took that photo, and then I took a photo of, let's say, a coke bottle cap and a corona bottle and another cigarette. But I was sort of photographing this litter on the ground, and I noticed two things happening to me.
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Jeff Kirschner: The first was that litter became artistic simply because of the power of Instagram. And because it became artistic, it became approachable, right? Oh, that could be a cool photo op if I position that correctly. The second thing that happened to me was at the end of a week, I had 50 or 60 photos on my phone, and I had properly discarded every single piece I had photographed. So I realized that I was keeping a record of the positive impact I was having on the planet. Now, I did not know what I could do with that information. I thought it was kind of cool. I thought it was interesting. So I started sharing that with others. And over time, literati, which started as a hashtag on Instagram, started growing. Other people were using the hashtag in photographing trash. And that's when we found out.
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Jeff Kirschner: And by we, I mean I knew somebody that was smarter than I was and could figure this out, found out that each photo had all this data around it. Like, I didn't know anything about data. I didn't know anything about business, knew that my kids saw something in the woods.
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Monica H. Kang: Yeah.
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Jeff Kirschner: But they showed me, like, if you took all the photographs that had this hashtag, we could extract, like, the geotag, the latitude and longitude where every single piece was photographed, plot all those things on a map, and we could also look at the other hashtags. So if somebody actually wrote, like, Hashtag Coca Cola, hashtag aluminum, hashtag can, well, now we're starting to see that we could parse out all the brands, we could parse out the objects, we could parse out the materials. And so slowly but surely, this nascent database started building of this litter, and that grew and grew. And then we had enough demand that we made the decision to build an iOS android application. And now I'm leapfrogging years here. But it's sort of. You asked the question, at what point did I know there was something more?
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think there ever was a point. I think that there were signs along the way, some I probably saw and some I probably missed, that suggested, hey, here's maybe the next place you should try to travel to on this entrepreneurial path. And ten years later, I'm still doing that. I've made so many mistakes along the way, whether they were product mistakes, finance mistakes, hiring mistakes, firing mistakes in the press. But that's been just my journey. And I think it comes back to, like, there's a couple things that have kept me going, but one of the things that you said that has kept me going is that sense of curiosity, like, where might this go next? But maybe I'll end this by saying, again, the path has not been linear.
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Jeff Kirschner: It has been clumpy and rocky, and it is a constant two steps forward and ten steps back. But I'm taking another step.
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Monica H. Kang: And I do want to credit that, because for listeners contacts, I have the pleasure of knowing Jeff personally. We connected at a community leadership program called Hive way back in 2016. So he feels like a million miles ago. Back then, he was in San Francisco. Now he has moved to North Carolina. So we'll chat about that in a little bit, too. But one of the things I was really inspired, as you're hearing in this conversation, is just his pure honesty and authenticity into his past, present, and future. And I think often as leaders, we don't talk enough about it. I appreciate you sharing about whether it was your bar, attending time to your time, backpacking to the entrepreneurship, and now the current work.
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Monica H. Kang: Often I feel like as leaders, we like to only talk about the fancy success and not enough about, like, kind of the, you know, that part I wasn't clear. Like, we tend to, like, kind of put that under the rug. And I appreciate you sharing that. No, those were all equally important parts of my chapter. It helped me be who I am. And so I'm curious, what would you share to, like young Jeff, way back when, before all of this, what would you want to share with him? Knowing where you are today, that's a good one.
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Jeff Kirschner: One lesson or one piece of advice I would share is, it's going to take longer than you ever imagined. Another one is to slow down. This is going to sound ironic, but one would be to slow down. So many people, certainly in the world of startups, are fail fast, quick iteration. Speed is your ally and those are all true. But for me, there's a lot of value in just slowing down. Those are a couple things that I would share and maybe one last one.
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Monica H. Kang: Yeah, just.
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Jeff Kirschner: Just try to enjoy it. Life is not worth the constant stress and anxiety that so many founders and early stage startup people put themselves under. There's a lot more to life than whether you raise a seed round of capital. Even though at the moment I know that it feels like that's the only thing in life, it's not.
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Monica H. Kang: No, that's really meaningful. Speaking of making sure you slow down, I'm curious how you slow down and how you make the time to take care of yourself, because this world is unfortunately still full of litter and so it's keeping you and your team very busy.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, I don't do a good enough job of slowing down. It's a practice. You know, I try to make sure that I'm really present with my family, although I know I can do a better job of that as well. I have a pretty active yoga practice and for me there's a great phrase. I don't remember where I heard it, but someone talked about the concept of stacking days. So I don't really set, you know, with that sort of practice, I don't set goals. I just tried to stack days. Like today is just another day to practice. And I believe in the idea that those incremental steps compound over time. Yeah, that's how I kind of look at it.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Climate change. And of course, as we celebrate Earth Day in environment, as you have pointed out, there's just so much to catch up. Stay updated, be informed. But as you have pointed out, you don't have to be an expert to be a leader and be involved. You have been a role model and really show that if you're determined and have a vision and want to start, it is possible. But curious, what are ways how you stay up to date. Because I feel like there's still so much going on and there's often misinformation. How do you make sure that you're updated, informed and making sure that you're making a positive difference?
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Jeff Kirschner: I actually think that misinformation is going to be one of the biggest challenges that we face collectively. It's something I talk about with my children all the time. I think it is a real challenge for. I mean, it's here now, but for the next generation. I can't really even envision how difficult it's going to be to understand the source of your information and verify and validate that it's legitimate. So what I try to do is ensure first that the sources that I'm getting my information from are reputable. And then I just try to listen and read and talk to others. I find that very enjoyable and I find a lot of value.
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Jeff Kirschner: And just, again, it comes back to this theme of curiosity, just hearing about what other people are doing, what has worked, what hasn't, what are the new experiments that are going on, what new ideas are being connected that, you know, may seem totally disconnected on their face, but people are trying to apply them in new ways. That's how I try to stay on top of what's going on. And I also accept that there's just too much information and I will never really be up to date.
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Monica H. Kang: Speaking of recent trends in news, what are some exciting changes and trends, innovations that's going on in climate change that you're excited about? I feel like there's so much going on with AI, machine learning as well, and how that impacting in all industries, including how we think about climate change and support.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. What I've noticed, and I can't remember in my lifetime if this has ever happened with sort of a global size problem. I'm sure it has, but I can't think of a moment. What I've noticed is that the younger generation, the youth, are truly activated and they're not just sitting on the sidelines. They are actually doing things that can make a difference because, and I think there's a, I think that's a byproduct of two main things. Number one, there is a desire, right? They are motivated because our generation, my generation has screwed things up royally. And they're like, we aren't sitting by on the sidelines. We're not asking you for permission. We are going to take our destiny into our own hands and be the change that we want to see. That's one thing.
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Jeff Kirschner: The second thing is that the tools are now readily available. You can do so much without a lot of money to really build a prototype, to build a team, to start to build a little app that can grow into a bigger app. There's this sort of merging of these two tidal waves. The technology is now much more accessible to many more people. And unfortunately, the problem has gotten so grave that fortunately more people are jumping in and, you know, rolling up their sleeves. So I think that's a trend if you will, that I am really encouraged by.
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Monica H. Kang: What would you say also, skills wise, that will be even more important for those who want to be a better leader in this field.
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Jeff Kirschner: So I'm biased in this one. So the easy answer is, or answer, and this is absolutely true, is that coding and people who can write the AI prompts so that the machines can give us back really solid insight and answers, those skills will absolutely be needed. And things like design and product development and program and product management, I mean, all of those things remain true. But the one area that I think has become even more important, and again, I'm biased, is storytelling. Because I think at the end of the day, what gets people moving, what gets people inspired, what touches people in their heart, is a story well told. And so the ability to craft that narrative and deliver it in a way that really speaks to someone and meets them where they are is a blend of art and science. And it's.
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Jeff Kirschner: I don't think it's tough to do, but I think it's tough to do well.
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Monica H. Kang: How can we do better storytelling?
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Jeff Kirschner: Tell more stories. It's like anything else, right? The more practice, the better you get. Study the masters. Understand the principles of great storytelling. Those ingredients, those recipes are there for people to learn and to understand and to truly master. And it's about understanding those principles. They're not rules, they're principles, but understanding them in a way that moves the audience. I think that is going to become increasingly important because it's. It's not just moving. You know, your audience might be. You're trying to move people to join your team, you're trying to move people to raise money. You're trying to move somebody to join your community. That skill is necessary in so many aspects of building a movement, building an organization, building a business, or just getting. Getting people to listen.
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Monica H. Kang: That's so true. No, thank you for highlighting that. Speaking of stories, I want to revisit your very beginning of literality that you shared about your daughter's comment and how that has led. Ten plus years. Congratulations. I feel like ten years is like teenage years of a business is like a milestone. So you're way past that. But that also means your children are now teenagers. I'm curious how it feels. They've seen the different chapters of your business and have grown up with literary. Like, how do they now feel about litter? And I wonder if you do have conversations and remember way back when and where we are now and how that feels when you look at your daughter and son now.
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Jeff Kirschner: So the truth is that if I were to say anything about literati around the dinner table, they, at this point, just roll their eyes. We get it, dad. Great. They've seen it. All right. They've seen the times where I'm really excited about something. They've seen the times where I am incredibly down, frustrated, depressed, wondering how the next day will turn out. They've been riding shotgun through this process. My wife has really ridden front seat shotgun. You know, she. I think there's not enough credit given to those who surround the leader, those who surround the entrepreneur. The support network is so vital. They pick you up when you're down. They give you the hard love. Sometimes they just give you a hug because that's what you need and don't ask any questions.
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Jeff Kirschner: But I think maybe if I could change one thing, or one of the things I would change is, I think more awareness and more recognition needs to. The spotlight needs to be shown on the support people just as much as it is on the leader. So, yeah, my family, my folks, my brother, all the people I listed, friends, they've heard me complain and cry and celebrate.
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Monica H. Kang: Love that, no, thank you for sharing that. I think, as you pointed out, you know, we're here because of not only our experiences and the skills that we built, but because of the people, most importantly, the people that continue to come on this journey of life with us. And so appreciate you highlighting so. And speaking of people, one of the things that we want to continue to learn is expanding who we can learn from. And so during my curious Monica show, I asked all my guests if they can enlighten us with three new people that we can learn from. And for this month, because we are celebrating Earth Day, we'll love. Jeff, if you can recommend three people who happen to be working in either climate change or sustainability that you admire, that we should learn from. And, folks, you know the drill.
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Monica H. Kang: I will have the name and contact in the show notes, so that way you can follow up and learn from them as well. Jeff, curious. Who are three people you want to shout out?
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah. The truth is there's probably 300 people I'd love to shout out.
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Monica H. Kang: And we'll make sure we'll add more in the notes. But if we have to highlight three.
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Jeff Kirschner: Verbally, I think what I'd really like to do is, for the moment, highlight one. It's a gentleman named Chris Gaither. And Chris is a coach who is focused on supporting sustainability leaders. Chris has a very storied background working at Apple for a very long time in their sustainability department as a leader. But he found a calling in coaching sustainability leaders who often don't have the resources they need and are often, I should say, constantly faced with overwhelming problems that they're trying to solve. And he has been a real spark of positive, of positivity and a real bright light for so many people in that world. I owe him a debt of gratitude for what he's done for me. And he's somebody I think other people would really benefit from just listening to.
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Monica H. Kang: I love that. Well, we'll make sure that we have his information so that way we can follow up and learn from him. Thank you so much. Jeff. One thing I was also very curious. You know, you mentioned briefly a few times, but would love to do dig a little bit deeper is how you manage your stress and also your downtimes. It's very normal. And I think one of the things that we don't get to recognize enough is has entrepreneurs and founders. It happens a lot more than people expect. I think the key is how we stand back up. So I'm curious how you navigate those moments and what you do that helps you.
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Jeff Kirschner: Yeah, so I, there are three things, but I want to say that I have it every day. Like, I. It is a constant. It is a constant in my life, which isn't a good thing, but it just is. So the first is. So I have three. I call them the tools in my toolbox. So the first one is, I oftentimes phone a friend. I find it very healthy to just talk about it, and I have a number of trusted friends who I talk to you all the time about the stresses that I'm going through that include anything with my family or personally or business wise, career wise. But phoning a friend, getting it out of my system, is really helpful. The second is changing my physiological state. Typically, for me, that's exercise. Any sort of movement, though, is really helpful.
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Jeff Kirschner: Some people will, you know, cold plunges are very popular now. And, yes, that absolutely works for me as well. But where I tend to go is movement, and typically exercise. Yoga being, for me, the primary form. And the third and final one is music. So music seems to just snap me out of whatever mind state I'm in and bring me into another one. And 99 times out of 100, it's a really positive change. So that's how I do it. Those three things. Phone a friend, movement of some sort, and listen to some good tunes.
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Monica H. Kang: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. It has been such a joy to have you here. You shared so many wisdom and insights. I know many would want to re listen and make sure they type tap deeper into this two quick final questions as we wrap up. And I can't believe how fast time has gone by. One, what's oh, you've shared a lot of different wisdoms, but what is one final wisdom you want to share with our listeners, wherever they are, in their chapter as an innovator?
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Jeff Kirschner: I guess it's funny, I just got off a call. I've been coaching some youth, some younger innovators, and the one piece of advice that I just left this one young woman with was, you're going to make mistakes and that's okay. That's hard to get comfortable with. But finding, I guess that's it. Like finding comfort in the discomfort is a key component to moving on. Yeah.
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Monica H. Kang: Love it. Love it. No, thank you very much. The final question is, what's the best way we can stay in touch with you? You can find me on the various social media platforms or on just jeff@litterati.org. But Jeff, you have any preference in how folks follow up with you?
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Jeff Kirschner: You can find me on the various social media platforms or on just jeffiterati.org dot.
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Monica H. Kang: Perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Jeff, for joining us, folks. Thank you again for tuning in for another conversation. We're going to continue to celebrate Earth Day this month and we're so grateful you're here. So come back again next week and we will have another story. We'll see you later. Thank you.
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Monica H. Kang: Storytelling as a top skills indeed. I think we've got a lot of new stories to learn and reflect on as Jeff has shared in his journey today. Thank you so much for joining us in today's conversation. And thank you all for joining us as we continue to celebrate innovators around the world and how we can do differently by hearing their stories. So join us again next week. This is your host, Monica Kang from Innovators Box, and I hope you have a great day and we'll see you soon.
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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for tuning into today's episode. This is your host, Monica Kang, founder and CEO of InnovatorsBox. I hope this has inspired you and empowered you to know that your voice and stories matter. Audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lehmart, Audio Engineering Support by Ravi Lad, website and marketing support by Kree Pandey, Graphics Support by Lea Orsini, Christine Eribal, Origin of Music by InnovatorsBox Studios which you can also check out in any music platform and executive producing, writing, hosting and interviewing by me, Monica Kang, founder and CEO of InnovatorsBox. Please give us feedback, questions, thoughts we want to hear from you. And a little shout out to the wonderful team who made this possible today.
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Speaker 4: Audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lamord Audio Engineering Support by Ravi Ladd website and marketing support by Creep Graphics Support by Leah Orsini Christine Eribal Origin of Music by Innovators Box Studios which you can also check out in any music platform and executive producing, writing, hosting and interviewing by me, Monica King, founder and CEO of Innovators Box please give us feedback, questions, thoughts we want to hear from you. Send a hello@curiousmonica.com. Have a wonderful day and we'll see you soon. Thank you.
