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Sue Keogh: When I start talking about menus, the intro says that I'm on a flight to Gran Canaria and I'm looking at the menu and so I took that picture there and then on the flight.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And I was thinking at the time, oh, I don't want to do a video podcast. It just over complicates everything and I don't think anyone's going to be watching it anyway. However, it still left me feeling like, oh, I've got all these visuals, it'll be nice to throw them in.
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Sam Sethi: And the idea really is that I've listened to a podcast. I've listened to more than 48% of it, because I can set the threshold. And you go, yeah, I want to share that with all my friends. And I then have that appear in my social networks with a link back to that very same episode.
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Claire Waite Brown: Those extra noises, those mouth clicks, those breath sounds.
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Sam Sethi: Since you mentioned that to me, bloody hell, you've increased my workload. I now have to go through every one of my interviews taking those out now.
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Claire Waite Brown: Now you know how I feel editing this. Welcome to Creators from TrueFans, the podcast that, like TrueFans itself, showcases and supports independent podcasting. I'm Claire Waite Brown, Head of Community at TrueFans.
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Sam Sethi: And I'm Sam Sethi, the CEO of TrueFans.
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Claire Waite Brown: Download the TrueFans app to not only listen to podcasts from around the world, but interact with their creators and start paying the shows you value.
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Sam Sethi: Click on the Big purple Become a Fan button to be notified or emailed when new episodes of the
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Claire Waite Brown: this podcast are released, and follow @TrueFans.fm on Instagram or threads to be kept up to date on all the latest TrueFans features designed to improve discovery, interactivity and monetization opportunities for podcasts and their creators.
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Sam Sethi: Hi, Claire.
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Claire Waite Brown: Hello, Sam. How are you doing?
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Sam Sethi: I'm very well, thank you. Now, Claire, who are we featuring on this week's episode?
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Claire Waite Brown: This time I'm chatting with Sue Keough. Hi, sue, how are you?
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Sue Keogh: Hi, I'm great, thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant. Start by telling me, please, the name of your podcast and also a little precis of what it's all about.
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Sue Keogh: It's called Communication Untangled, and it's about the tiny facets of communication that influence our behaviour, but often go unnoticed. So it's things like voting slips, menu design, it's ticket design or instructions on medical devices, signs that you might see on the motorway or in hospitals. So it's kind of honing in on these tiny, tiny little elements of communication that we see every Day, but often until someone actually kind of points them out to you, you don't really notice they're there. So I have this vision. In series one, we had the episode on signs, and I think what I want to achieve from it, I just pictured someone driving down a motorway, either listening to the podcast, or maybe they've listened to it earlier, and they see a sign on a motorway and they think, do you know what? I've never noticed that it's the same font, same typography used everywhere. And you think, yeah, of course. And so it's all those kind of things that until someone really points it out to you, it just sort of passes you by.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: So it really hones in on all of these little elements.
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Claire Waite Brown: It's fascinating. I think it's a really, really good concept. But that said, why did you start it? Where did it come from?
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Sue Keogh: Well, my whole career has centered around best practice in communication. So I did a degree in communication studies. I worked in radio, working in music radio for Radio 2, producing series and live events and documentaries, and then I moved into digital, working with ITV and Yahoo and aol, and then after that went freelance and then kind of accidentally founded my own marketing agency that I ran for 16 years. Until recently I kind of rebooted it and turned it into a communications consultancy. So across my career, I've done print, digital, social media, the odd campaign on a bus and in a phone box, just all these different formats. And I've really been interested to see how it is those tiny changes that actually can have a big effect. So it's kind of an outlet for me, the end audience is people who work in marketing and also business owners as well, who are thinking about their brand and how they get it across their brand messages, but also people who just have an interest in this kind of thing. So it all comes down to good communication.
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Claire Waite Brown: I usually ask at this juncture, and I'm going to with you. I wonder if it's a chicken and egg situation, because I often ask, where do you find your guests? Or where do you find your subject matter? Now, your subject matter for an episode, then depends on a guest who can talk about that subject matter.
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Sue Keogh: Yes.
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Claire Waite Brown: So my question is, do you come up with the subject matter and find the guest, or do you find the guest and then make the subject matter suit the guest?
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Sue Keogh: Or both. It's a bit of both. And actually the germ of an idea I had, it was all to do with a sausage. So someone came to me years ago when I was doing copywriting and she was launching a sausage restaurant in Shoreditch and she needed someone to write the copy to go with it. So the kind of playful puns to do with sausages for the menu, signs for the toilets, website copy and all that kind of thing. And it's the kind of project where if you actually went out looking for something like this, you'd never find it, but someone comes to you and unfortunately the restaurant, she did all the sorts of research and thought actually, you know, she wasn't convinced it was going to work and it never got off the ground. But it gave me this fascination with menu design and I felt like I'd never really looked at a menu before. I mean, I'd looked at a menu, but I'd never really looked at a menu in italics and underlined. Never looked at it. And so this was the first one I thought, right, well, I'm going to start here. I had this little idea at the back of my head I wanted to do for years. And so around that one I researched and found a guest. So there was somewhere like that where I had the idea for the topic. And one was around instructions. And I went down so many avenues. I tried to talk to Ikea because I wanted to do something on flat pack instructions. How do you explain to someone how to build a bookcase? You know, really interesting, got a big no from ikea. Then I thought, right, Lego, I'll talk to lego. Lego said, no, you can't talk to us because it's all kind of secret. So then I kept on going around in circles until I suddenly came across the idea of medical devices. And then through a company I knew, you know, I reached out to these people and they're brilliant, they told me all this stuff around people who hold an EpiPen the wrong way up. Instead of trying to inject the person with something to stop them having anaphylactic shock, they accidentally inject themselves and how the beauty of good instructions means that in a way you shouldn't have to open up that huge newspaper size set of instructions in six different languages. You know, it should be self explanatory. So some of the topics I thought, yeah, this is interesting, I want to find some. But then other ones for voting slips. I went to a conference years ago called Camp Digital and there's somebody there talking about the process of voting in the US and she said it was something like those 43 different stages that you've got to go through before you can actually vote. So you've got to get to the nearest registration station that might only open once a month and it might be the other side of the state. So then if you're low income, you've got to take a day off work and you've got to get that, you know. And I think it was around the time we had an election here. So I dug out this woman's name and then reached out to her and said, can you talk to me about how voting slips are designed? Because I think that's really interesting. And I was wondering, the candidate whose name begins with A and appears at the top of the page, do they have more of an advantage? Does that influence it? You know, and she said, love to talk to you, but actually her colleague is better. And so the two of them together had co founded the US center for Civic Design in Washington. And that came into being. Do you remember the hanging chads thing when it was the George W. Bush election quite a few years ago now. But there had to be a recount and it was all down to how the actual physical voting slips had been punched. So they founded this organization after that to try and make sure that voting was more fair. Yeah, so some of them, some of them started with the topic first and I found a person and then sometimes I kind of, you know, people were kind of on my radar and I was thinking, yeah, you, you seem interesting, I'll try and reach out to you. But what I, I tend to avoid, I don't just look through, okay, who's got a book out and go to them. I, I'd much rather do my own digging. And quite often people are surprised to be asked and they're much more keen to come forward, you know. Cause it's nice to be chosen.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, absolutely. I have a, an interest in it from my book editing point of view. One of the ones I listened, listened to was recipe books. And she talks about how you organize the ingredients by order reviews. And that's the kind of thing I need to do in the books that I'm doing. And I'm kind of aware of the fonts and the colours and how this all gets sorted before you even get the person who's writing the actual content of the book.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah. Because there's some self published books I've seen recently from people in the business community that I know and really respect. And then I, I've got a copy of the book thinking, oh brilliant, you know, I'm really interested to read this. I'm thinking, oh no, they didn't, they didn't know about this. And you know, do you Know about orphans and widows. Yeah, you know, and that. And so they'll have a paragraph that it will start on one page and then finish on the other. And I'm thinking, oh God, yeah, please stop.
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Claire Waite Brown: Oma, you've mentioned your consultancy and your work. How does this fit in? How does the podcasting process fit in with that time wise and energy wise?
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Sue Keogh: Well, I suppose if I go back to goals as well. So I work with a brilliant producer called Rob Bernie for Made by dbm, which stands for Don't Blame Me. Anyway, I must give him a shout out on this because he is really excellent and he's helped me develop the concept and the format really well. And so the first question he asked me when we had our very first meeting was, what's the goal of this? What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to monetize it? And I was saying, well, actually, you know, when it comes down to it, it's more about positioning. So it's more positioning me, positioning Sukio as people who really know about marketing and communications and are going to come at it from a slightly different angle, not just regurgitating different theories from the latest book we've read. And so that's kind of the goal. So then that's helped me slot it in to what else I'm doing. Although at the time it's also felt like this kind of rewarding personal project as well. But it's helped me see there is the business purpose around it. And I learned a lot from series one to series two. And I think we probably did series two in about a third of the time that series one took. So in series two, for example, I did four of the interviews over two days, which actually was possibly a little bit too much because you're sort of context switching a bit too much, but blocking out more time to do. It was really good. With some of the way that we recorded it, we recorded it more in batches and I also, I just made sure that I had enough business time for it and just blocked out time in advance as much as I could. Because it's a lot, you know, running a business and particularly the first series was very much, we're coming out of the pandemic into recession, big team, just a lot going on. And it felt like this is this little, little gem for me. This is my own creative outlet. That's nothing to do with one to ones and onboarding and hiring and invoicing.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, you have your producer, which is fabulous. Are there any other kind of processes that between the two of you, you found, have made things easier for you.
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Sue Keogh: Well, a big learning point for me over the years about anything to do with production is that the more you spend on the planning and the prep, oh, my God, the difference that makes, you know? And when you're new to it, say if you're filming, you want to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, let's film, let's get the cameras out, let's go for it. And then you realize that the footage you've got is rubbish. And then you spend more time trying to reverse engineer it and trying to somehow crowbar in and make it good than if you just sat down and did, you know what? At the time can feel a bit sort of boring and sensible, but actually I really love. Anyway, so we've got a trello board for series one. And so I had a different card for each episode idea. So then onto that I could put all of my little notes on who I'd reached out to. It would also mean no ideas were lost because some of them I came back to in series two and thought, right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make this one work. I also planned out each episode and then were able to say where it is in the editing process. So guest booked, brilliant, recorded. Then it moves to the next column and then Rob would add notes there to say he's done the edits and, you know, is it ready for sign off? And then we're also able to plan a marketing activity on that as well. So that was really useful. I'm all about templating as well. Anything in business that I find myself doing more than once or more than twice, I try and create a template for it. So we had a one pager that would go out to any guests saying, right, this is what the podcast's about. If we go ahead, you know, you'll need this equipment or it'll take this amount of time. Time. And I tried to put other bits in there, like my credentials. Oh, and the other thing as well that I found really, really good is prepping calls rather than just going straight into the recording. And then afterwards the guest says, oh, I didn't know you were going to ask me that. Oh, I could have come up with a much better answer. Then I used to try and have just a half hour call maybe the week before, just to run through topics and also to say to the guest, actually, is there something you particularly want to talk about? They'd say, yeah, I've got this brilliant example for you. So all of those things Feels like it's taking up time, but actually it means you come away with a brilliant recording and then it takes less editing.
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Claire Waite Brown: You've mentioned that this show is supportive of the work that you do and it's good for you, for your, you know, your brand or how you come across the like. No, trust, all of that. Have you had any thoughts on. Do you want to monetize it directly? Like, the podcast itself has its own income of some sort.
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Sue Keogh: Well, I am kind of thinking now we're coming up to series three, it's got a bit more of a track record behind it now. We're thinking about people listening to it on their commute, really. So nice and short. We record the intro and the outro separately. And then there's also a bit called Sue's Bit in the Middle, where I do a bit that's a contrast. So, for example, the one on instructions, I spoke to the women about medical devices, but in the middle, that's when I did a thing on Lego for three minutes. Anyway, for series three, I'm going to focus a bit more on the techniques of communication because I'm almost running out of tangible things to talk about. Each episode is untangling something. So untangling recipes, untangling tickets, untangling menus. So this would be untangling grief or untangling crisis or untangling emergency. I want to see if I can interview a paramedic in an ambulance, for example, and think, well, how do you communicate with your colleagues in moments of huge crisis, untangling arguments? You know, I'd love to talk to a barrister or someone that's been in court a lot. And while I'm slightly refreshing the approach, and I'd like to do this across series three and four, I'm also thinking, well, is this a time to maybe try and get some backing with it as well? I don't know. Maybe I need to talk to more people because I don't really know how to. How to make that work.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, this is a question you're dreading. Sue, what do you know about Podcasting 2.0?
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Sue Keogh: Oh, loads.
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Claire Waite Brown: Everybody does. Yes.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah, I don't really know. I don't know. Should I know a lot about it?
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Claire Waite Brown: Not really, no. It's something you can definitely look into. And the easiest way to do that is to listen to my show, Podcasting 2.0 in Practice, which explains it in very small packages and actually tells you how to do it. There are extra things that you can add in your RSS feed that might be beneficial to your show, whether it's for discovery, interactivity or monetization. And that's how I focus on Podcasting 2.0 in Practice. I'm not picking on you right now, but it might sound like I am.
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Sue Keogh: You're an easy target.
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Claire Waite Brown: I was listening to the episode about captions and about accessibility. So when I got home, because I was listening in the car and I clicked on to see if you had a transcript.
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Sue Keogh: Okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: Which you don't. I think with Acast, you have to have a higher paid hosting deal to be able to put the your own transcripts on. Now, obviously, Apple will make transcripts for you, so there will be transcripts in Apple. And that chap was talking about the accessibility not just for hard of hearing, but those who might process. You know, the processing pattern between listening and feeling it in the brain may be a bit slower. And that's where closed captioning can help. So if you did have a hosting company that allowed you to attach your transcript, then that could go out to all of the podcast acts. Now I'm talking to you, obviously on creators from TrueFans and within TrueFans itself, you can claim your show and then you can add a transcript in TrueFans that can be seen in TrueFans. So that was an example of one that I thought would be useful. I also think that's useful for if people are listening to English podcasts, but English isn't their first language, for example.
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Sue Keogh: Yes.
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Claire Waite Brown: Transcripts are also searchable. So if people are searching for a particular term, that will search all the transcripts of all the podcasts and your show may come up. And another one. I always seem to bang on about this one because I like it. Chapters.
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Sue Keogh: Yes. Rob's been telling me about this as well.
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Claire Waite Brown: Has he? Good, Rob, well done. I like chapters, but for your show, because, for example, on that one, when you did your Suze bit in the middle, you talked about the tape. Modern.
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Sue Keogh: That's right, yeah. Gallery captions.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, gallery captions. Now, what you can do, if you make your own chapters, you put in the timestamp, you give a name for that chapter. You can also add images.
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Sue Keogh: Right.
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Claire Waite Brown: And I'm thinking, oh, I wonder what that font is that Tate Modern uses and that shows up on your lock screen on the phone. So it's not like you have to be watching it all the time.
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Sue Keogh: That's incredible, because when I was recording, and a big part of the podcast as well, is that where possible, I went and did the recording in person. You know, I only did it on Zoom, kind of reluctantly when I had to. But most of them, I went out and met them in person. So naturally I took as many pictures as I could. So those images, they went up on LinkedIn and social media, for example, you know, like the menu design. When I start talking about menus, the intro says that I'm on a flight to Gran Canaria and I'm looking at the menu, and so I took that picture there and then on the flight.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And I was thinking at the time, oh, I don't want to do a video podcast. It just overcomplicates everything, and I don't think anyone's going to be watching it anyway. However, it still left me feeling like, oh, I've got all these visuals. It'll be nice to throw them in.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, that's why I love doing it, for creativity. Found. I'll have photos of the art, whatever it may be that the guest has made. So that's what goes on the chapters, and it just gives you that extra bit of interactivity and interest. So well done for Rob. Rob can investigate that a bit more.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah, good old Rob.
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Claire Waite Brown: But it's just another one that I thought was relevant to your show. Now, not all of these features are going to be relevant to every single podcast, and that's why you can pick and choose the ones that you think could be helpful, whether that's helpful for your show from a discovery point of view or for your listeners for that interactivity point of view. For a monetization point of view, there is a feature called the funding tag, which is a nice little picture icon on your show, on TrueFans, for example, and other apps. And you can choose which link that goes to. So mine goes to my Buy me a coffee, you might have a Patreon, or.
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Sue Keogh: Oh, okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: The other monetization thing, and I do this for every podcaster that comes on this show, is that when I'm listening, I stream payments to you for every minute that I'm listening.
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Sue Keogh: Oh, right.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay. When you set yourself up as you set your own account up in TrueFans, as a listener, you will be given a wallet, and you can put money into that wallet through Stripe, so it's all easy to do. And then listeners can choose to just send a little bit of money to the creators of the shows that they like. So what's going to happen for you if you or Rob claim your show on TrueFans? Once you've done that, you will see a little bit of money from me.
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Sue Keogh: Wow, Amazing. That's really nice.
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Claire Waite Brown: People can send you comments as well, and they can attach payments to the comments. Right.
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Sue Keogh: Okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, there you go. Those are my recommendations.
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Sue Keogh: Thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: Thank you so much, Sue. It's been super to chat. Tell us again the name of your show and all the other places that people can find you.
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Sue Keogh: So it's called Communication Untangled. One place to start is my website. So it's sukio.comS-O-K-I-O.com podcast kept that easy. And my name is Sukio, so my company name is kind of based around my own name. But you'll find me out on the web under all these Sukio names.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay, brilliant. I'll put a link to the show in TrueFans in the show notes, and I'll put a link in the chapters as well.
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Sue Keogh: Yes, yeah, exactly. Can you go back and do that retrospectively? Yes, yes. Okay, good.
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Claire Waite Brown: If your hosting company allows things like this, transcripts, chapters, you can go and change them at any time.
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Sue Keogh: You can always go back and do it. Yeah, yeah, great.
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Claire Waite Brown: You have complete control, and if you spot anything that you don't like anymore or that, heaven forbid, something was wrong, you can change it. And anyone in the future need to be none the wiser.
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Sue Keogh: Well, I do notice as well that the first episode has got way more listens than the rest, because I think people start at the beginning and so to start there. And I've got loads of visuals with that one because it's on brand. Brand guidelines.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And then to kind of make sure that all of the first series just tidy the whole lot up with chapters and visuals, that would be a very satisfying job to do.
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Claire Waite Brown: Would be a super addition. Well, there's a whole little module on Podcasting 2.0 in Practice on chapters. Tells you how to find them, tells you how to put them in, tells you why they're good, which I've already explained. So have a listen to that. Thank you so much, Sue.
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Sue Keogh: Thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: I mentioned in that chat about transcripts and how useful closed captioning of podcasts can be for those who need help in processing what they hear as well as the hard of hearing. So with AI making it easy and cheap to make transcripts, I have two questions for you, Sam. I want your opinion. Basically, why aren't more podcasters adding their own transcripts to their audio? And I know loads don't, because I've been looking at it and I've been searching them. And second question, why do so many hosting companies not give creators the option to add Transcripts. I mean, accessibility is so important and so talked about. Why are people who want transcripts with their audio being denied something that is basically very easy to do?
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Sam Sethi: Okay, so there's three parts to this. First one, the Podcasting 2.0 community came up with the idea of transcripts within the RSS feed. And the adoption of that has taken two years between hosts adding the feature and function, and also creators being educated. And finally, users demanding it. Now Buzzsprout and RSS.com and Captivate and a few others have now started to add transcripts. Just because you lead a horse to water doesn't mean they will drink. So sadly, although the companies now have added the feature and function for transcripts, podcasters aren't doing it. And some of that is because it's an additional cost. So I think one or two things will happen. As you said, the cost of creating transcripts is now coming down considerably. And so on that basis, you will see hosts bundling transcription as part of the flat fee for hosting. It will become a competitive advantage. So that, I think, is what will answer your question, that in the next two, three, six months, max, I think every host will provide transcripts for every podcast and it will be free within the cost of hosting.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay. I was just quite frustrated actually, because I was like searching through loads of shows and thinking, why haven't you got the transcript there? It's so easy to do. But yeah, I understand time.
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Sam Sethi: One of the things we have considered doing, and I think it's something we should do, is on the transcript tab within TrueFans, we could put a button there if the email still exists in the RSS feed. So let's say Claire Waite Brown with creativityfound didn't have a transcript, but your email was still within the RSS feed. We could put a button which would be email request for transcript. That's the wrong words. But just off the top of my head, which then email you as the creator saying, hey, I want a transcript, please provide. Right? And you might go, bugger off. I don't care who you are, if you got 50 emails requesting that you provided a transcript, maybe you would then consider it. I don't know, maybe that's one way to have users requesting or fans asking for it. So Carrot v. Stick, I can guess.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, yeah, no, that's a nice idea. If you'd like to chat with us about your indie podcast or how you can help independent podcasters send a comment or super comment in TrueFans to any creators episode by clicking on the speech bubble icon or on the comments tab. Look out for future guests, including Melissa Maris from Reparenting Podcast and Josh Craggs from Too Long Didn't Listen.
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Sam Sethi: Claire, have you got any questions for me this week?
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, I have, because I've noticed something again, and you and Mo have been playing around with things. What I've noticed is a new button on the search mechanism. So I click on the magnifying glass icon at top right and I can type in the name of the show. I'm looking for all standard stuff, but now there's a new button there, too. What's that all about?
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Sam Sethi: So, a bit like what you were talking about with the transcript tag. There's a lag between the idea, the implementation, and then the adoption. There is a location tag that has been part of the Podcasting 2.0, and what we saw was the implementation of the tag. So you can set the subject or the location. So Claire Wake Brown records in Oxford, but the subject of her podcast isn't that. So she could have a different subject, and that were the attributes of the location tag. And in the same way, it's taken forever, it feels like, for people to adopt the location tag. Now we're starting to see more and more people adding their location to their RSS feed. So within the search capability on our TrueFans page, you can search for people, you can search by category, you can search by keyword, et cetera. But if you want to search by location, then you do, but you need a radius. I'm not searching the whole world. Right, so now you might say, I want to search for this particular topic, but within a 50 kilometer radius of where I am. You as a user, we know your geolocation from your IP address, and we then say, okay, so Claire's based in Oxford, but she wants to know about podcasts talking about ballet within a 50 kilometer radius or 30 kilometer radius of where she lives. And then what we do is we give you the results of anything we find that supports the location tag. Of course, not every podcast that talks about Ballet has the location tag in it, so obviously we'll miss a few, but it's a star.
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Claire Waite Brown: And if podcasters whose hosts do not allow them to put their location in want to do that in TrueFans, so it will at least show up in TrueFans. How do they do that?
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Sam Sethi: So you've claimed your podcast, you've got access to your Creators Dashboard. You go and find the pencil icon and you edit your podcast feed. You go to the advanced tab and you see a location field, start typing where you are, and it'll have a dropdown based on Google Maps where you put your location. Now, that's for your podcast, but for your episode, you can also go into the episode, and in the advanced tab there, you can put in either with a toggle, the recording location. So let me give you a good example, Claire. You're based in Oxford, so their recording location is Oxford. But maybe at the London podcast show, you decided to record one episode in London. So you can then go into the episode and change your location to London for that one episode.
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Claire Waite Brown: Interesting. Yeah, super. We are all about discovery, interactivity, and monetization here at TrueFans. And one form of discovery that goes a bit wider than the app itself is social sharing. Sam, can you explain what that means and how we can do that on TrueFans?
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Sam Sethi: We all know that the best way of discovering a new podcast is often word of mouth, and we trust our friends as a first form of recommendation. Now, we've got Podrolls, which is your recommendation out. But what if you wanted to go wider than the podcast app and share what you're listening to or what you've become a fan of or a comment you might have made, or a episode that you listened to that you rated five stars? Right. All of those bits of information are held within TrueFans, but we all have one or several social networks that we're part of. So you might be part of LinkedIn or Facebook or Threads or Bluesky or Mastodon, and instead of you copying and pasting manually, oh, you know what? I listened to creators from TrueFans this week, and I'm going to cut and paste it. And then I left a comment on this other podcast, and I'm going to cut. No one's going to do that on a regular basis. So we've automated social sharing. So the idea is, in your user settings, you can go down to the social web tab and you could populate your accounts with those various social networks. You have to authorize this. We can't do this automatically. Once you've done that, you then get a set of verbs that you can choose from. So, like, share, become a fan play, and you choose the ones you want to share. Those are the activities and TrueFans. And then when you do those activities in TrueFans, we will automatically look at your social media platforms that you've picked and the verbs and the activities you've chosen, and we will share them. And the idea really is that I've listened to a podcast. I'VE listened to more than 48% of it because I can set the threshold of when we publish that and you go, yeah, I want to share that with all my friends and I then have that appear in my social networks with a link back to that very same episode or I leave a comment and then that comment is published onto my social platforms with a link back to the episode and the comment tab so that I can see where the comment was and did anyone else make a comment as well? Automatic social sharing is a feature that we've been slowly rolling out. We've done it in the past and we've just recently added LinkedIn and we'll be adding threads very shortly.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant.
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Sam Sethi: Claire, it's the fanbox. Have we had any messages since the last episode?
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, yes. So last time on the show when you were off climbing mountains in Ireland, I talked about how the publisher page in TrueFans could work and be another discovery tool for podcasts. And I made up this scenario where David John Clark, myself and our guest from that week, Elizabeth Brosfield, got together to promote each other's like minded shows on a publisher page that I called Never Too Late. So David John Clark commented. He gave us 907sats. Thank you David. Saying Never Too Late Publisher feed. Love it. I'm keen to be on the live demonstration for sure. Let me know. Hopefully the time zone works because of course he's in Australia. The live demo that David mentions there is something I want to set up when it's all working, how we want it to work. And Martin Linderskog, he sent us 100 SATs and commented, Claire, please contact me about this event. To which I replied, will do Martin, thank you.
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Sam Sethi: That's a great example of how the comment feature in TrueFans can be used. David and Martin hear you talking about an event, they can express their thoughts and interests there without having to navigate to a link or a social media post, which is really cool as well.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, very similar to what we were saying about the ease of social sharing. You don't have to go anywhere else and in this case I get that comment, I add them to the list so that I'll contact them when that event happens. Speaking of me communicating with you or generally TrueFans communicating with everybody out there, we are working on our own newsletter feature and I'm mentioning that now because I would love for people to opt in to receive that newsletter. Now we have a new sign in where there is a toggle to opt into that when you sign in, but obviously we've got lots of people on the platform who didn't have that when they first signed in. So we've made this new toggle now where you can opt in to receive a monthly newsletter from us. We're not going to bombard you, don't worry. Sam, how do people who are already on the platform find where they can opt into our newsletter?
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Sam Sethi: Yeah, you go to your user profile and we should prompt you there to remind you to opt in to the newsletter. You go into user settings, go down to email settings, and then you should see right at the top there, toggle that says yes or no to opt into the newsletter. Nice and simple. The idea of the newsletter, by the way, like all newsletters, it's there to give you information, whether you're a fan, information as a creator, or some of the new stuff that we're working on. So as Claire said, once a month we don't want to bombard you, but we think it's a great way to inform and get feedback as well. It's not just a one way system.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant. Yep, do opt in.
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Sam Sethi: So let's see what's happening around in the world today. Have you been doing anything?
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Claire Waite Brown: I have, I've been listening to lots of podcasts. Certainly lots of clips of podcasts. So I have just finished my round of judging for the Independent Podcast Awards and actually Sam, you and I, or maybe the wider audience could help us with this need to decide if or who between the two of us might present the award that we are actually sponsoring on.
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Sam Sethi: No, no, that's, that's an easy one. That's you.
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Claire Waite Brown: No, they might not want to see me.
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Sam Sethi: I'll be in the audience cheering loudly, whistling woohoo. But no, I don't need to go up on stage. No.
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, well, well, well. I'll still leave it open. If anyone has any strong views on who they might like to present the award that we're sponsoring, then do let us know in the comments. And so I finished that judging and now I'm straight onto judging for the International Women's Podcast Awards. And these are very specific because the entrant chooses a moment. They're all based on a moment, so it's not necessarily the show as a whole, but it's a moment that fits the category. So I've just started listening to my, my submissions on that one, which has also been really interesting.
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Sam Sethi: Judging is really interesting. I, I tend to, when I do judge, there's a couple of things that really annoy me about any podcast. And if it's Got it. In that podcast, I tend to downmark them. And one of my big bugbears is hosts or co hosts chatting about their social life at the beginning of a podcast. Leave that to the end, please. I don't need to know. If I really am parasocial about you and I want to know more about you, then, yes, I will listen to you at the end. And I also think for me, if I find that the podcast is what I call flabby, then I also downmark them. They're a couple of my issues.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, Vic, actually, Vic Elizabeth Turnbull, she wrote her latest newsletter was about editing. And there's often this thought that, oh, I don't edit my podcast because I want it to be natural. But natural can be boring and flappy, as you say, and you need to respect the listener to give them the crux of your episode. Another thing that I think I may be a bit overly picky on, I don't know, is those extra noises, those mouth clicks, those breath sounds.
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Sam Sethi: Since you mentioned that to me. Bloody hell. You increased my workload. I now have to go through every one of my interviews taking those out now. I never noticed them before. Right. And then you went, said to me, oh, there's a lot of. And I went, you see? And now I hear it everywhere, and I have to take it out.
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Claire Waite Brown: Now you know how I feel editing this,
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Sam Sethi: especially after that last bit.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yes.
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Sam Sethi: All jokes aside, you are a professional editor. I mean, you used to do it for books, right?
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, I think it's easier for me having done it for books, because I'm not afraid to take stuff out. I'm not precious about that. And talking with our guest this week, sue, she said this. It's a lot easier if you make it right in the planning. So my questions for Creativity Found always follow the order that I want them to so I know the recording is in the right order. So I am literally editing linearly, taking out bits that they've repeated or bits that I think aren't actually that interesting or whatever. It makes my editing life a lot easier.
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Sam Sethi: Yeah. Neal Veglio from PodKnows and I once did an edit off. So he was the guest on Podnews Weekly Review, and we jokingly said, okay, you're the professional editor. I'm not. You edit this interview, and I'm gonna edit this interview, and we'll see what you come up with. It was really interesting, actually. He was like you, much harsher on the cut than I was.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, maybe it'd be different now, now that you're cutting out all the thing that I tell you to cut out.
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Sam Sethi: No, I cut out the. I mean, I obviously cut out the ums and ers, the double words, the. You knows, the sort of weird and wonderful things that we do when we're talking that we're not consciously aware of doing. But that said, yeah, I now notice a little, because a lot of people do take that breath before they talk. Those are the things that if you cut them out, it makes the audio in the playback sound better, but you don't notice them at the time. I don't know if I'm a better editor. I don't even know if I'm a better interviewer either. But I have a structure. I stick with my structure. I think the reason why I think I do okay interviews is because I've got a very technical head. And so generally, within reason, I can apply that and my business head to whatever conversation is. So I feel very comfortable on the fly, communicating, rather than having to have that structure.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, yeah, you are very good at that. I can see that. Because you never read the script for this show before we get here.
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Sam Sethi: Don't tell them.
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Claire Waite Brown: Oh, brilliant. Oh, one last thing, actually talking about breaths and things, one thing I've noticed with the AI applications that can do that for you is they can be a bit snippy. Something that I sometimes do is actually separate the track, so where the breath has been taken out, they might be talking two words too quickly together, and you actually cut the track and move it along a little bit so it still has a natural pull pause, but without that breath sound to hopefully help it sound less clipped. That was my top tip for the day.
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Sam Sethi: Yes. It's a great tip, actually. I remember when I first started editing with Descript. I think I was. I was so harsh in the editing. It sounded like Norman, Collier and James would go, have you just used Descript to edit that? Yeah. He says, give me the raw audio. I'll go and do it myself. So I've learned over time that you're right. There is that natural cadence, that natural flow. There are moments of pause, and then you can allow that within it. You don't have to clip the gaps so harshly. And that's it for this week, Claire. Our audio is recorded on Riverside, edited by you, and we're hosted by TrueFanst
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Claire Waite Brown: on the TrueFans app. Click on the purple button and become a fan of this podcast to know when new episodes are released.
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Sam Sethi: You can also support us by streaming sats from your TrueFans wallet. Click on the currency or the Bitcoin icon, depending on which way you want to pay. Under the play buttons where you'll find it. Or leave us a super comment by clicking on the speech bubble icon.
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Claire Waite Brown: We would love to have you follow us on Instagram or threads @trufans fm.
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Claire Waite Brown: You can find out more about how to use the features of the TrueFans platform by listening to our sister podcast, Fanzone.
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Sue Keogh: When I start talking about menus, the intro says that I'm on a flight to Gran Canaria and I'm looking at the menu and so I took that picture there and then on the flight.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And I was thinking at the time, oh, I don't want to do a video podcast. It just over complicates everything and I don't think anyone's going to be watching it anyway. However, it still left me feeling like, oh, I've got all these visuals, it'll be nice to throw them in.
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Sam Sethi: And the idea really is that I've listened to a podcast. I've listened to more than 48% of it, because I can set the threshold. And you go, yeah, I want to share that with all my friends. And I then have that appear in my social networks with a link back to that very same episode.
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Claire Waite Brown: Those extra noises, those mouth clicks, those breath sounds.
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Sam Sethi: Since you mentioned that to me, bloody hell, you've increased my workload. I now have to go through every one of my interviews taking those out now.
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Claire Waite Brown: Now you know how I feel editing this. Welcome to Creators from TrueFans, the podcast that, like TrueFans itself, showcases and supports independent podcasting. I'm Claire Waite Brown, Head of Community at TrueFans.
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Sam Sethi: And I'm Sam Sethi, the CEO of TrueFans.
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Claire Waite Brown: Download the TrueFans app to not only listen to podcasts from around the world, but interact with their creators and start paying the shows you value.
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Sam Sethi: Click on the Big purple Become a Fan button to be notified or emailed when new episodes of the
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Claire Waite Brown: this podcast are released, and follow @TrueFans.fm on Instagram or threads to be kept up to date on all the latest TrueFans features designed to improve discovery, interactivity and monetization opportunities for podcasts and their creators.
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Sam Sethi: Hi, Claire.
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Claire Waite Brown: Hello, Sam. How are you doing?
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Sam Sethi: I'm very well, thank you. Now, Claire, who are we featuring on this week's episode?
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Claire Waite Brown: This time I'm chatting with Sue Keough. Hi, sue, how are you?
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Sue Keogh: Hi, I'm great, thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant. Start by telling me, please, the name of your podcast and also a little precis of what it's all about.
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Sue Keogh: It's called Communication Untangled, and it's about the tiny facets of communication that influence our behaviour, but often go unnoticed. So it's things like voting slips, menu design, it's ticket design or instructions on medical devices, signs that you might see on the motorway or in hospitals. So it's kind of honing in on these tiny, tiny little elements of communication that we see every Day, but often until someone actually kind of points them out to you, you don't really notice they're there. So I have this vision. In series one, we had the episode on signs, and I think what I want to achieve from it, I just pictured someone driving down a motorway, either listening to the podcast, or maybe they've listened to it earlier, and they see a sign on a motorway and they think, do you know what? I've never noticed that it's the same font, same typography used everywhere. And you think, yeah, of course. And so it's all those kind of things that until someone really points it out to you, it just sort of passes you by.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: So it really hones in on all of these little elements.
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Claire Waite Brown: It's fascinating. I think it's a really, really good concept. But that said, why did you start it? Where did it come from?
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Sue Keogh: Well, my whole career has centered around best practice in communication. So I did a degree in communication studies. I worked in radio, working in music radio for Radio 2, producing series and live events and documentaries, and then I moved into digital, working with ITV and Yahoo and aol, and then after that went freelance and then kind of accidentally founded my own marketing agency that I ran for 16 years. Until recently I kind of rebooted it and turned it into a communications consultancy. So across my career, I've done print, digital, social media, the odd campaign on a bus and in a phone box, just all these different formats. And I've really been interested to see how it is those tiny changes that actually can have a big effect. So it's kind of an outlet for me, the end audience is people who work in marketing and also business owners as well, who are thinking about their brand and how they get it across their brand messages, but also people who just have an interest in this kind of thing. So it all comes down to good communication.
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Claire Waite Brown: I usually ask at this juncture, and I'm going to with you. I wonder if it's a chicken and egg situation, because I often ask, where do you find your guests? Or where do you find your subject matter? Now, your subject matter for an episode, then depends on a guest who can talk about that subject matter.
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Sue Keogh: Yes.
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Claire Waite Brown: So my question is, do you come up with the subject matter and find the guest, or do you find the guest and then make the subject matter suit the guest?
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Sue Keogh: Or both. It's a bit of both. And actually the germ of an idea I had, it was all to do with a sausage. So someone came to me years ago when I was doing copywriting and she was launching a sausage restaurant in Shoreditch and she needed someone to write the copy to go with it. So the kind of playful puns to do with sausages for the menu, signs for the toilets, website copy and all that kind of thing. And it's the kind of project where if you actually went out looking for something like this, you'd never find it, but someone comes to you and unfortunately the restaurant, she did all the sorts of research and thought actually, you know, she wasn't convinced it was going to work and it never got off the ground. But it gave me this fascination with menu design and I felt like I'd never really looked at a menu before. I mean, I'd looked at a menu, but I'd never really looked at a menu in italics and underlined. Never looked at it. And so this was the first one I thought, right, well, I'm going to start here. I had this little idea at the back of my head I wanted to do for years. And so around that one I researched and found a guest. So there was somewhere like that where I had the idea for the topic. And one was around instructions. And I went down so many avenues. I tried to talk to Ikea because I wanted to do something on flat pack instructions. How do you explain to someone how to build a bookcase? You know, really interesting, got a big no from ikea. Then I thought, right, Lego, I'll talk to lego. Lego said, no, you can't talk to us because it's all kind of secret. So then I kept on going around in circles until I suddenly came across the idea of medical devices. And then through a company I knew, you know, I reached out to these people and they're brilliant, they told me all this stuff around people who hold an EpiPen the wrong way up. Instead of trying to inject the person with something to stop them having anaphylactic shock, they accidentally inject themselves and how the beauty of good instructions means that in a way you shouldn't have to open up that huge newspaper size set of instructions in six different languages. You know, it should be self explanatory. So some of the topics I thought, yeah, this is interesting, I want to find some. But then other ones for voting slips. I went to a conference years ago called Camp Digital and there's somebody there talking about the process of voting in the US and she said it was something like those 43 different stages that you've got to go through before you can actually vote. So you've got to get to the nearest registration station that might only open once a month and it might be the other side of the state. So then if you're low income, you've got to take a day off work and you've got to get that, you know. And I think it was around the time we had an election here. So I dug out this woman's name and then reached out to her and said, can you talk to me about how voting slips are designed? Because I think that's really interesting. And I was wondering, the candidate whose name begins with A and appears at the top of the page, do they have more of an advantage? Does that influence it? You know, and she said, love to talk to you, but actually her colleague is better. And so the two of them together had co founded the US center for Civic Design in Washington. And that came into being. Do you remember the hanging chads thing when it was the George W. Bush election quite a few years ago now. But there had to be a recount and it was all down to how the actual physical voting slips had been punched. So they founded this organization after that to try and make sure that voting was more fair. Yeah, so some of them, some of them started with the topic first and I found a person and then sometimes I kind of, you know, people were kind of on my radar and I was thinking, yeah, you, you seem interesting, I'll try and reach out to you. But what I, I tend to avoid, I don't just look through, okay, who's got a book out and go to them. I, I'd much rather do my own digging. And quite often people are surprised to be asked and they're much more keen to come forward, you know. Cause it's nice to be chosen.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, absolutely. I have a, an interest in it from my book editing point of view. One of the ones I listened, listened to was recipe books. And she talks about how you organize the ingredients by order reviews. And that's the kind of thing I need to do in the books that I'm doing. And I'm kind of aware of the fonts and the colours and how this all gets sorted before you even get the person who's writing the actual content of the book.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah. Because there's some self published books I've seen recently from people in the business community that I know and really respect. And then I, I've got a copy of the book thinking, oh brilliant, you know, I'm really interested to read this. I'm thinking, oh no, they didn't, they didn't know about this. And you know, do you Know about orphans and widows. Yeah, you know, and that. And so they'll have a paragraph that it will start on one page and then finish on the other. And I'm thinking, oh God, yeah, please stop.
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Claire Waite Brown: Oma, you've mentioned your consultancy and your work. How does this fit in? How does the podcasting process fit in with that time wise and energy wise?
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Sue Keogh: Well, I suppose if I go back to goals as well. So I work with a brilliant producer called Rob Bernie for Made by dbm, which stands for Don't Blame Me. Anyway, I must give him a shout out on this because he is really excellent and he's helped me develop the concept and the format really well. And so the first question he asked me when we had our very first meeting was, what's the goal of this? What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to monetize it? And I was saying, well, actually, you know, when it comes down to it, it's more about positioning. So it's more positioning me, positioning Sukio as people who really know about marketing and communications and are going to come at it from a slightly different angle, not just regurgitating different theories from the latest book we've read. And so that's kind of the goal. So then that's helped me slot it in to what else I'm doing. Although at the time it's also felt like this kind of rewarding personal project as well. But it's helped me see there is the business purpose around it. And I learned a lot from series one to series two. And I think we probably did series two in about a third of the time that series one took. So in series two, for example, I did four of the interviews over two days, which actually was possibly a little bit too much because you're sort of context switching a bit too much, but blocking out more time to do. It was really good. With some of the way that we recorded it, we recorded it more in batches and I also, I just made sure that I had enough business time for it and just blocked out time in advance as much as I could. Because it's a lot, you know, running a business and particularly the first series was very much, we're coming out of the pandemic into recession, big team, just a lot going on. And it felt like this is this little, little gem for me. This is my own creative outlet. That's nothing to do with one to ones and onboarding and hiring and invoicing.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, you have your producer, which is fabulous. Are there any other kind of processes that between the two of you, you found, have made things easier for you.
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Sue Keogh: Well, a big learning point for me over the years about anything to do with production is that the more you spend on the planning and the prep, oh, my God, the difference that makes, you know? And when you're new to it, say if you're filming, you want to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, let's film, let's get the cameras out, let's go for it. And then you realize that the footage you've got is rubbish. And then you spend more time trying to reverse engineer it and trying to somehow crowbar in and make it good than if you just sat down and did, you know what? At the time can feel a bit sort of boring and sensible, but actually I really love. Anyway, so we've got a trello board for series one. And so I had a different card for each episode idea. So then onto that I could put all of my little notes on who I'd reached out to. It would also mean no ideas were lost because some of them I came back to in series two and thought, right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make this one work. I also planned out each episode and then were able to say where it is in the editing process. So guest booked, brilliant, recorded. Then it moves to the next column and then Rob would add notes there to say he's done the edits and, you know, is it ready for sign off? And then we're also able to plan a marketing activity on that as well. So that was really useful. I'm all about templating as well. Anything in business that I find myself doing more than once or more than twice, I try and create a template for it. So we had a one pager that would go out to any guests saying, right, this is what the podcast's about. If we go ahead, you know, you'll need this equipment or it'll take this amount of time. Time. And I tried to put other bits in there, like my credentials. Oh, and the other thing as well that I found really, really good is prepping calls rather than just going straight into the recording. And then afterwards the guest says, oh, I didn't know you were going to ask me that. Oh, I could have come up with a much better answer. Then I used to try and have just a half hour call maybe the week before, just to run through topics and also to say to the guest, actually, is there something you particularly want to talk about? They'd say, yeah, I've got this brilliant example for you. So all of those things Feels like it's taking up time, but actually it means you come away with a brilliant recording and then it takes less editing.
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Claire Waite Brown: You've mentioned that this show is supportive of the work that you do and it's good for you, for your, you know, your brand or how you come across the like. No, trust, all of that. Have you had any thoughts on. Do you want to monetize it directly? Like, the podcast itself has its own income of some sort.
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Sue Keogh: Well, I am kind of thinking now we're coming up to series three, it's got a bit more of a track record behind it now. We're thinking about people listening to it on their commute, really. So nice and short. We record the intro and the outro separately. And then there's also a bit called Sue's Bit in the Middle, where I do a bit that's a contrast. So, for example, the one on instructions, I spoke to the women about medical devices, but in the middle, that's when I did a thing on Lego for three minutes. Anyway, for series three, I'm going to focus a bit more on the techniques of communication because I'm almost running out of tangible things to talk about. Each episode is untangling something. So untangling recipes, untangling tickets, untangling menus. So this would be untangling grief or untangling crisis or untangling emergency. I want to see if I can interview a paramedic in an ambulance, for example, and think, well, how do you communicate with your colleagues in moments of huge crisis, untangling arguments? You know, I'd love to talk to a barrister or someone that's been in court a lot. And while I'm slightly refreshing the approach, and I'd like to do this across series three and four, I'm also thinking, well, is this a time to maybe try and get some backing with it as well? I don't know. Maybe I need to talk to more people because I don't really know how to. How to make that work.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, this is a question you're dreading. Sue, what do you know about Podcasting 2.0?
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Sue Keogh: Oh, loads.
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Claire Waite Brown: Everybody does. Yes.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah, I don't really know. I don't know. Should I know a lot about it?
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Claire Waite Brown: Not really, no. It's something you can definitely look into. And the easiest way to do that is to listen to my show, Podcasting 2.0 in Practice, which explains it in very small packages and actually tells you how to do it. There are extra things that you can add in your RSS feed that might be beneficial to your show, whether it's for discovery, interactivity or monetization. And that's how I focus on Podcasting 2.0 in Practice. I'm not picking on you right now, but it might sound like I am.
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Sue Keogh: You're an easy target.
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Claire Waite Brown: I was listening to the episode about captions and about accessibility. So when I got home, because I was listening in the car and I clicked on to see if you had a transcript.
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Sue Keogh: Okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: Which you don't. I think with Acast, you have to have a higher paid hosting deal to be able to put the your own transcripts on. Now, obviously, Apple will make transcripts for you, so there will be transcripts in Apple. And that chap was talking about the accessibility not just for hard of hearing, but those who might process. You know, the processing pattern between listening and feeling it in the brain may be a bit slower. And that's where closed captioning can help. So if you did have a hosting company that allowed you to attach your transcript, then that could go out to all of the podcast acts. Now I'm talking to you, obviously on creators from TrueFans and within TrueFans itself, you can claim your show and then you can add a transcript in TrueFans that can be seen in TrueFans. So that was an example of one that I thought would be useful. I also think that's useful for if people are listening to English podcasts, but English isn't their first language, for example.
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Sue Keogh: Yes.
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Claire Waite Brown: Transcripts are also searchable. So if people are searching for a particular term, that will search all the transcripts of all the podcasts and your show may come up. And another one. I always seem to bang on about this one because I like it. Chapters.
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Sue Keogh: Yes. Rob's been telling me about this as well.
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Claire Waite Brown: Has he? Good, Rob, well done. I like chapters, but for your show, because, for example, on that one, when you did your Suze bit in the middle, you talked about the tape. Modern.
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Sue Keogh: That's right, yeah. Gallery captions.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, gallery captions. Now, what you can do, if you make your own chapters, you put in the timestamp, you give a name for that chapter. You can also add images.
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Sue Keogh: Right.
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Claire Waite Brown: And I'm thinking, oh, I wonder what that font is that Tate Modern uses and that shows up on your lock screen on the phone. So it's not like you have to be watching it all the time.
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Sue Keogh: That's incredible, because when I was recording, and a big part of the podcast as well, is that where possible, I went and did the recording in person. You know, I only did it on Zoom, kind of reluctantly when I had to. But most of them, I went out and met them in person. So naturally I took as many pictures as I could. So those images, they went up on LinkedIn and social media, for example, you know, like the menu design. When I start talking about menus, the intro says that I'm on a flight to Gran Canaria and I'm looking at the menu, and so I took that picture there and then on the flight.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And I was thinking at the time, oh, I don't want to do a video podcast. It just overcomplicates everything, and I don't think anyone's going to be watching it anyway. However, it still left me feeling like, oh, I've got all these visuals. It'll be nice to throw them in.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, that's why I love doing it, for creativity. Found. I'll have photos of the art, whatever it may be that the guest has made. So that's what goes on the chapters, and it just gives you that extra bit of interactivity and interest. So well done for Rob. Rob can investigate that a bit more.
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Sue Keogh: Yeah, good old Rob.
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Claire Waite Brown: But it's just another one that I thought was relevant to your show. Now, not all of these features are going to be relevant to every single podcast, and that's why you can pick and choose the ones that you think could be helpful, whether that's helpful for your show from a discovery point of view or for your listeners for that interactivity point of view. For a monetization point of view, there is a feature called the funding tag, which is a nice little picture icon on your show, on TrueFans, for example, and other apps. And you can choose which link that goes to. So mine goes to my Buy me a coffee, you might have a Patreon, or.
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Sue Keogh: Oh, okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: The other monetization thing, and I do this for every podcaster that comes on this show, is that when I'm listening, I stream payments to you for every minute that I'm listening.
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Sue Keogh: Oh, right.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay. When you set yourself up as you set your own account up in TrueFans, as a listener, you will be given a wallet, and you can put money into that wallet through Stripe, so it's all easy to do. And then listeners can choose to just send a little bit of money to the creators of the shows that they like. So what's going to happen for you if you or Rob claim your show on TrueFans? Once you've done that, you will see a little bit of money from me.
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Sue Keogh: Wow, Amazing. That's really nice.
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Claire Waite Brown: People can send you comments as well, and they can attach payments to the comments. Right.
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Sue Keogh: Okay.
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, there you go. Those are my recommendations.
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Sue Keogh: Thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: Thank you so much, Sue. It's been super to chat. Tell us again the name of your show and all the other places that people can find you.
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Sue Keogh: So it's called Communication Untangled. One place to start is my website. So it's sukio.comS-O-K-I-O.com podcast kept that easy. And my name is Sukio, so my company name is kind of based around my own name. But you'll find me out on the web under all these Sukio names.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay, brilliant. I'll put a link to the show in TrueFans in the show notes, and I'll put a link in the chapters as well.
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Sue Keogh: Yes, yeah, exactly. Can you go back and do that retrospectively? Yes, yes. Okay, good.
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Claire Waite Brown: If your hosting company allows things like this, transcripts, chapters, you can go and change them at any time.
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Sue Keogh: You can always go back and do it. Yeah, yeah, great.
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Claire Waite Brown: You have complete control, and if you spot anything that you don't like anymore or that, heaven forbid, something was wrong, you can change it. And anyone in the future need to be none the wiser.
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Sue Keogh: Well, I do notice as well that the first episode has got way more listens than the rest, because I think people start at the beginning and so to start there. And I've got loads of visuals with that one because it's on brand. Brand guidelines.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah.
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Sue Keogh: And then to kind of make sure that all of the first series just tidy the whole lot up with chapters and visuals, that would be a very satisfying job to do.
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Claire Waite Brown: Would be a super addition. Well, there's a whole little module on Podcasting 2.0 in Practice on chapters. Tells you how to find them, tells you how to put them in, tells you why they're good, which I've already explained. So have a listen to that. Thank you so much, Sue.
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Sue Keogh: Thank you.
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Claire Waite Brown: I mentioned in that chat about transcripts and how useful closed captioning of podcasts can be for those who need help in processing what they hear as well as the hard of hearing. So with AI making it easy and cheap to make transcripts, I have two questions for you, Sam. I want your opinion. Basically, why aren't more podcasters adding their own transcripts to their audio? And I know loads don't, because I've been looking at it and I've been searching them. And second question, why do so many hosting companies not give creators the option to add Transcripts. I mean, accessibility is so important and so talked about. Why are people who want transcripts with their audio being denied something that is basically very easy to do?
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Sam Sethi: Okay, so there's three parts to this. First one, the Podcasting 2.0 community came up with the idea of transcripts within the RSS feed. And the adoption of that has taken two years between hosts adding the feature and function, and also creators being educated. And finally, users demanding it. Now Buzzsprout and RSS.com and Captivate and a few others have now started to add transcripts. Just because you lead a horse to water doesn't mean they will drink. So sadly, although the companies now have added the feature and function for transcripts, podcasters aren't doing it. And some of that is because it's an additional cost. So I think one or two things will happen. As you said, the cost of creating transcripts is now coming down considerably. And so on that basis, you will see hosts bundling transcription as part of the flat fee for hosting. It will become a competitive advantage. So that, I think, is what will answer your question, that in the next two, three, six months, max, I think every host will provide transcripts for every podcast and it will be free within the cost of hosting.
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Claire Waite Brown: Okay. I was just quite frustrated actually, because I was like searching through loads of shows and thinking, why haven't you got the transcript there? It's so easy to do. But yeah, I understand time.
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Sam Sethi: One of the things we have considered doing, and I think it's something we should do, is on the transcript tab within TrueFans, we could put a button there if the email still exists in the RSS feed. So let's say Claire Waite Brown with creativityfound didn't have a transcript, but your email was still within the RSS feed. We could put a button which would be email request for transcript. That's the wrong words. But just off the top of my head, which then email you as the creator saying, hey, I want a transcript, please provide. Right? And you might go, bugger off. I don't care who you are, if you got 50 emails requesting that you provided a transcript, maybe you would then consider it. I don't know, maybe that's one way to have users requesting or fans asking for it. So Carrot v. Stick, I can guess.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, yeah, no, that's a nice idea. If you'd like to chat with us about your indie podcast or how you can help independent podcasters send a comment or super comment in TrueFans to any creators episode by clicking on the speech bubble icon or on the comments tab. Look out for future guests, including Melissa Maris from Reparenting Podcast and Josh Craggs from Too Long Didn't Listen.
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Sam Sethi: Claire, have you got any questions for me this week?
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, I have, because I've noticed something again, and you and Mo have been playing around with things. What I've noticed is a new button on the search mechanism. So I click on the magnifying glass icon at top right and I can type in the name of the show. I'm looking for all standard stuff, but now there's a new button there, too. What's that all about?
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Sam Sethi: So, a bit like what you were talking about with the transcript tag. There's a lag between the idea, the implementation, and then the adoption. There is a location tag that has been part of the Podcasting 2.0, and what we saw was the implementation of the tag. So you can set the subject or the location. So Claire Wake Brown records in Oxford, but the subject of her podcast isn't that. So she could have a different subject, and that were the attributes of the location tag. And in the same way, it's taken forever, it feels like, for people to adopt the location tag. Now we're starting to see more and more people adding their location to their RSS feed. So within the search capability on our TrueFans page, you can search for people, you can search by category, you can search by keyword, et cetera. But if you want to search by location, then you do, but you need a radius. I'm not searching the whole world. Right, so now you might say, I want to search for this particular topic, but within a 50 kilometer radius of where I am. You as a user, we know your geolocation from your IP address, and we then say, okay, so Claire's based in Oxford, but she wants to know about podcasts talking about ballet within a 50 kilometer radius or 30 kilometer radius of where she lives. And then what we do is we give you the results of anything we find that supports the location tag. Of course, not every podcast that talks about Ballet has the location tag in it, so obviously we'll miss a few, but it's a star.
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Claire Waite Brown: And if podcasters whose hosts do not allow them to put their location in want to do that in TrueFans, so it will at least show up in TrueFans. How do they do that?
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Sam Sethi: So you've claimed your podcast, you've got access to your Creators Dashboard. You go and find the pencil icon and you edit your podcast feed. You go to the advanced tab and you see a location field, start typing where you are, and it'll have a dropdown based on Google Maps where you put your location. Now, that's for your podcast, but for your episode, you can also go into the episode, and in the advanced tab there, you can put in either with a toggle, the recording location. So let me give you a good example, Claire. You're based in Oxford, so their recording location is Oxford. But maybe at the London podcast show, you decided to record one episode in London. So you can then go into the episode and change your location to London for that one episode.
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Claire Waite Brown: Interesting. Yeah, super. We are all about discovery, interactivity, and monetization here at TrueFans. And one form of discovery that goes a bit wider than the app itself is social sharing. Sam, can you explain what that means and how we can do that on TrueFans?
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Sam Sethi: We all know that the best way of discovering a new podcast is often word of mouth, and we trust our friends as a first form of recommendation. Now, we've got Podrolls, which is your recommendation out. But what if you wanted to go wider than the podcast app and share what you're listening to or what you've become a fan of or a comment you might have made, or a episode that you listened to that you rated five stars? Right. All of those bits of information are held within TrueFans, but we all have one or several social networks that we're part of. So you might be part of LinkedIn or Facebook or Threads or Bluesky or Mastodon, and instead of you copying and pasting manually, oh, you know what? I listened to creators from TrueFans this week, and I'm going to cut and paste it. And then I left a comment on this other podcast, and I'm going to cut. No one's going to do that on a regular basis. So we've automated social sharing. So the idea is, in your user settings, you can go down to the social web tab and you could populate your accounts with those various social networks. You have to authorize this. We can't do this automatically. Once you've done that, you then get a set of verbs that you can choose from. So, like, share, become a fan play, and you choose the ones you want to share. Those are the activities and TrueFans. And then when you do those activities in TrueFans, we will automatically look at your social media platforms that you've picked and the verbs and the activities you've chosen, and we will share them. And the idea really is that I've listened to a podcast. I'VE listened to more than 48% of it because I can set the threshold of when we publish that and you go, yeah, I want to share that with all my friends and I then have that appear in my social networks with a link back to that very same episode or I leave a comment and then that comment is published onto my social platforms with a link back to the episode and the comment tab so that I can see where the comment was and did anyone else make a comment as well? Automatic social sharing is a feature that we've been slowly rolling out. We've done it in the past and we've just recently added LinkedIn and we'll be adding threads very shortly.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant.
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Sam Sethi: Claire, it's the fanbox. Have we had any messages since the last episode?
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, yes. So last time on the show when you were off climbing mountains in Ireland, I talked about how the publisher page in TrueFans could work and be another discovery tool for podcasts. And I made up this scenario where David John Clark, myself and our guest from that week, Elizabeth Brosfield, got together to promote each other's like minded shows on a publisher page that I called Never Too Late. So David John Clark commented. He gave us 907sats. Thank you David. Saying Never Too Late Publisher feed. Love it. I'm keen to be on the live demonstration for sure. Let me know. Hopefully the time zone works because of course he's in Australia. The live demo that David mentions there is something I want to set up when it's all working, how we want it to work. And Martin Linderskog, he sent us 100 SATs and commented, Claire, please contact me about this event. To which I replied, will do Martin, thank you.
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Sam Sethi: That's a great example of how the comment feature in TrueFans can be used. David and Martin hear you talking about an event, they can express their thoughts and interests there without having to navigate to a link or a social media post, which is really cool as well.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, very similar to what we were saying about the ease of social sharing. You don't have to go anywhere else and in this case I get that comment, I add them to the list so that I'll contact them when that event happens. Speaking of me communicating with you or generally TrueFans communicating with everybody out there, we are working on our own newsletter feature and I'm mentioning that now because I would love for people to opt in to receive that newsletter. Now we have a new sign in where there is a toggle to opt into that when you sign in, but obviously we've got lots of people on the platform who didn't have that when they first signed in. So we've made this new toggle now where you can opt in to receive a monthly newsletter from us. We're not going to bombard you, don't worry. Sam, how do people who are already on the platform find where they can opt into our newsletter?
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Sam Sethi: Yeah, you go to your user profile and we should prompt you there to remind you to opt in to the newsletter. You go into user settings, go down to email settings, and then you should see right at the top there, toggle that says yes or no to opt into the newsletter. Nice and simple. The idea of the newsletter, by the way, like all newsletters, it's there to give you information, whether you're a fan, information as a creator, or some of the new stuff that we're working on. So as Claire said, once a month we don't want to bombard you, but we think it's a great way to inform and get feedback as well. It's not just a one way system.
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Claire Waite Brown: Brilliant. Yep, do opt in.
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Sam Sethi: So let's see what's happening around in the world today. Have you been doing anything?
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Claire Waite Brown: I have, I've been listening to lots of podcasts. Certainly lots of clips of podcasts. So I have just finished my round of judging for the Independent Podcast Awards and actually Sam, you and I, or maybe the wider audience could help us with this need to decide if or who between the two of us might present the award that we are actually sponsoring on.
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Sam Sethi: No, no, that's, that's an easy one. That's you.
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Claire Waite Brown: No, they might not want to see me.
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Sam Sethi: I'll be in the audience cheering loudly, whistling woohoo. But no, I don't need to go up on stage. No.
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Claire Waite Brown: Well, well, well, well. I'll still leave it open. If anyone has any strong views on who they might like to present the award that we're sponsoring, then do let us know in the comments. And so I finished that judging and now I'm straight onto judging for the International Women's Podcast Awards. And these are very specific because the entrant chooses a moment. They're all based on a moment, so it's not necessarily the show as a whole, but it's a moment that fits the category. So I've just started listening to my, my submissions on that one, which has also been really interesting.
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Sam Sethi: Judging is really interesting. I, I tend to, when I do judge, there's a couple of things that really annoy me about any podcast. And if it's Got it. In that podcast, I tend to downmark them. And one of my big bugbears is hosts or co hosts chatting about their social life at the beginning of a podcast. Leave that to the end, please. I don't need to know. If I really am parasocial about you and I want to know more about you, then, yes, I will listen to you at the end. And I also think for me, if I find that the podcast is what I call flabby, then I also downmark them. They're a couple of my issues.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, Vic, actually, Vic Elizabeth Turnbull, she wrote her latest newsletter was about editing. And there's often this thought that, oh, I don't edit my podcast because I want it to be natural. But natural can be boring and flappy, as you say, and you need to respect the listener to give them the crux of your episode. Another thing that I think I may be a bit overly picky on, I don't know, is those extra noises, those mouth clicks, those breath sounds.
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Sam Sethi: Since you mentioned that to me. Bloody hell. You increased my workload. I now have to go through every one of my interviews taking those out now. I never noticed them before. Right. And then you went, said to me, oh, there's a lot of. And I went, you see? And now I hear it everywhere, and I have to take it out.
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Claire Waite Brown: Now you know how I feel editing this,
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Sam Sethi: especially after that last bit.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yes.
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Sam Sethi: All jokes aside, you are a professional editor. I mean, you used to do it for books, right?
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, I think it's easier for me having done it for books, because I'm not afraid to take stuff out. I'm not precious about that. And talking with our guest this week, sue, she said this. It's a lot easier if you make it right in the planning. So my questions for Creativity Found always follow the order that I want them to so I know the recording is in the right order. So I am literally editing linearly, taking out bits that they've repeated or bits that I think aren't actually that interesting or whatever. It makes my editing life a lot easier.
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Sam Sethi: Yeah. Neal Veglio from PodKnows and I once did an edit off. So he was the guest on Podnews Weekly Review, and we jokingly said, okay, you're the professional editor. I'm not. You edit this interview, and I'm gonna edit this interview, and we'll see what you come up with. It was really interesting, actually. He was like you, much harsher on the cut than I was.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, maybe it'd be different now, now that you're cutting out all the thing that I tell you to cut out.
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Sam Sethi: No, I cut out the. I mean, I obviously cut out the ums and ers, the double words, the. You knows, the sort of weird and wonderful things that we do when we're talking that we're not consciously aware of doing. But that said, yeah, I now notice a little, because a lot of people do take that breath before they talk. Those are the things that if you cut them out, it makes the audio in the playback sound better, but you don't notice them at the time. I don't know if I'm a better editor. I don't even know if I'm a better interviewer either. But I have a structure. I stick with my structure. I think the reason why I think I do okay interviews is because I've got a very technical head. And so generally, within reason, I can apply that and my business head to whatever conversation is. So I feel very comfortable on the fly, communicating, rather than having to have that structure.
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Claire Waite Brown: Yeah, yeah, you are very good at that. I can see that. Because you never read the script for this show before we get here.
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Sam Sethi: Don't tell them.
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Claire Waite Brown: Oh, brilliant. Oh, one last thing, actually talking about breaths and things, one thing I've noticed with the AI applications that can do that for you is they can be a bit snippy. Something that I sometimes do is actually separate the track, so where the breath has been taken out, they might be talking two words too quickly together, and you actually cut the track and move it along a little bit so it still has a natural pull pause, but without that breath sound to hopefully help it sound less clipped. That was my top tip for the day.
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Sam Sethi: Yes. It's a great tip, actually. I remember when I first started editing with Descript. I think I was. I was so harsh in the editing. It sounded like Norman, Collier and James would go, have you just used Descript to edit that? Yeah. He says, give me the raw audio. I'll go and do it myself. So I've learned over time that you're right. There is that natural cadence, that natural flow. There are moments of pause, and then you can allow that within it. You don't have to clip the gaps so harshly. And that's it for this week, Claire. Our audio is recorded on Riverside, edited by you, and we're hosted by TrueFanst
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