Coach Mills (00:00.675)
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new Clearcoms episode. The season 8.5 passion has just dropped, so we're really excited to talk about it. And today we're actually joined by two special guests. First guest, Nerfpool. you know, famous yapper and known content creator. thank you for coming on, Nerf Pool. And yeah.
Nerfpool (00:21.544)
Thank you for having me.
CaptainCoach (00:22.456)
I think I've seen some of his movies.
Nerfpool (00:25.0)
let's not talk about that. That's legal reasons. Ryan Reynolds is a very nice guy, allegedly.
Coach Mills (00:31.489)
And then for our second guest, for the first time on the pod, we're bringing known rage baiter and and and and streamer, content creator, Imperator. What's up, man? How you doing?
imperator (00:43.82)
What's up, what's up, how you guys doing? Glad to glad to be here for the first time.
CaptainCoach (00:46.542)
yeah, they're
Coach Mills (00:47.897)
Yeah, yeah, no. We w we we're really excited to have you on the pod. I see a lot of your takes on on X and I I love the rage baiting. I love I just love all the interaction. It's it's it's very entertaining. So it's it's really good stuff.
CaptainCoach (00:59.78)
You wanna you w you wanna know something funny? So normally I make it a point to research both of our guests before if I don't know who they are. And I didn't I hadn't like seen either of your content. I thought with Nerfpool I h I'd heard what he like does. So I'm like, you know, it's like a movie, you don't wanna watch the trailers before, so I didn't check anything, but with Imp Imperator Im Imper Imperator? Is that how you say it? I went to your YouTube channel and you have this video where your your head is shaved and you're just doing like a Christmas special.
imperator (00:59.886)
Thank you.
imperator (01:19.246)
Emperor, yeah, yeah, that's fine, that's fine.
CaptainCoach (01:29.648)
And you And I was watching, I'm like, all right, I'm Yeah I it was funny 'cause I did like literally the exact same thing before. So I thought it was I I I absolutely wait, you would tank me? I knew it. I could tell. I could tell.
imperator (01:29.801)
don't worry about that. That's like let's just not talk about that.
Coach Mills (01:30.926)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:33.192)
You gotta do what you gotta do for content.
Coach Mills (01:35.905)
No.
imperator (01:41.624)
Great minds think alike, bro. Great minds think alike.
Coach Mills (01:42.083)
No. No. And all all the content I've seen Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the content I've seen of Imp was you just mogging. You're like moging everybody. You quackly, you're mogging Necros. It's it's great. It's it's good shit. but yeah, so we just got a new patch. and what we're gonna do is we're gonna go through and we're gonna go through just the changes and g and everyone can give their general thoughts on the changes. But before we get to that, I wanna hear starting with you, Imp.
imperator (01:46.488)
Yes.
CaptainCoach (01:54.754)
shit.
imperator (01:56.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (02:11.326)
I d can I call you imp is is that is that is that fine? Okay, I'm just making sure kinda feels fucked up. how do you feel about season eight? Like what's what's your what's your overall thoughts on season eight? Yeah, yeah.
imperator (02:12.897)
Yeah can come in bro. Call me anything you want bro. Call me call me anything you want.
CaptainCoach (02:15.86)
No.
imperator (02:22.989)
Current like the current season win, right? I I I have like 80 games played max, you know. Like I I I was like today I wasn't even playing rivals. Like last week I'm not even playing rivals unlicensed like for scrims for MRC. I'm I'm just running like World of Warcraft keys with Necros like others, you know. Like we're we're I'm not even touching the game, you know. As as a tank player, I I this is the worst season of my life. I was I was vividly enjoying playing Strange, and then Devil Dinosaur comes out, pick or ban. Good luck playing any shield tank in the Devil Dinosaur. Just super boring, overtuned.
Coach Mills (02:36.107)
CaptainCoach (02:37.708)
shit.
imperator (02:52.941)
Trash. So like as a tank player, it's like really unfun. So I had to the only games I had fun with was like playing flank Luna. That's like the only thing I had fun with.
Coach Mills (02:59.512)
Okay, gotcha. And do you do you think do you think it's purely because of Devil Dino that is the unfun meta, or do you think there's other factors involved as well?
CaptainCoach (03:00.65)
another villain created.
imperator (03:10.157)
Well there was like we had to deal with like Gambit being like pick or ban, right? Like and the Gambit dodging nerves, like successfully evading nerves for like six seasons, right? Like that that that's like the I I can deal with that. But like then they released Devil Dinosaur, which is like you either build four heroes around Devil Dinosaur or you will just lose the mirror, or you just waste a ban on and the enemy gets like a black cat or Daredevil player and you don't have one.
Coach Mills (03:15.234)
For the five seasons, yeah, or four, yeah.
Coach Mills (03:31.628)
Hmm, gotcha. Gotcha. So you you will you say that season eight is like the worst season for you, like at of of all time? Do you think it's like your your least favorite?
imperator (03:40.897)
Okay, no, my least favorite is one point five with like torch, torch ultra meta. Triple support torch ultra meta. That like the worst.
Coach Mills (03:46.627)
Ooh, okay, okay, okay, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, just non in non interactive garbage, right? Like just stuff that as tank players we just can't do anything about, right? That makes sense. what about you, Nerfpool? How do you how do you feel about eight point
imperator (03:50.817)
This is second place, second place, second place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nerfpool (04:01.351)
Completely awful. So for me, and just for reference, I play in the lower ranks, right? You guys are really good at the game, and I haven't gotten the time to do that. Maybe, maybe Coach can hook me up with some sweet, sweet coaching, and then I'll be able to. But I plugged you there. You gotta admit that I did plug you. The one. Yeah, I don't know. You guys need to come up with better names, but the one that does the coachings. but
CaptainCoach (04:16.845)
I got you. Wait, which coach?
Coach Mills (04:20.952)
That's a lot of coach.
Coach Mills (04:25.974)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (04:30.435)
Ever since they messed with the alt charge, the lower ranks have been a complete dumpster fire because it revealed that neutral is more important than necessary. So now these people can't press a little button and then add value. So now even more feeding is happening, even more frustration is happening, and they just can't figure out how to kite and do all the basic things that you're supposed to do. So yeah, I'm also a tank player. I'm a Captain America tank player.
Which is even more unfortunate in the lower ranks, and it's been
Coach Mills (04:59.864)
It's crazy that I got y'all both in the dark and I still just got two tank maids like chat like the like the comments always get pissed at us for never having any support players and I was just like, Alright, well I they just don't exist.
CaptainCoach (05:05.199)
Ha ha ha.
Nerfpool (05:05.819)
I know.
Nerfpool (05:14.555)
But I am converting slowly to a more responsible support player because of you guys. Cause a lot of times you talk about like supports having a bit more balls and a bit more zoos to what they do. And I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to make plays. I'm trying to not be a heel bot and to add to the overall team composition. So I've been doing that primarily because of you guys. So that's kind of fun. But Tank has been awful in the last couple of seasons. So it's been rough.
CaptainCoach (05:41.124)
That's a a really interesting thing. Cause another critique we've had, apart from not getting enough support players on, is we don't have enough lower rank players on. And it's nice to hear your insight. I think what you're saying really makes sense if you think about it, right? Because the alts in Marvel Rivals are all very, very strong. It's the most skillless part about the game, is just when the alts come down. Would you say that in the lower ranks, what rank are you, by the way?
Nerfpool (06:08.5)
I am currently a diamond two.
CaptainCoach (06:11.475)
okay, that's not that's not super low rank.
Coach Mills (06:14.338)
Yeah, they're gonna get mad at us. They're like, It's not low enough. We need to get bronze players. Like it is yeah.
Nerfpool (06:14.506)
you're being nice.
Okay, well let me let me put it this way. I'll I'm I'm gonna get it lower. I'm currently a diamond two, but I always kinda go back 'cause I go on these beautiful winning streaks. For some reason. And losing streaks, sorry. So I do primarily like Diamond 2's my peak, so that's the furthest I've gotten. I'm really like a like a late platinum diamond one kind of player, depending on how hard I tilt and how big my losing streaks are.
CaptainCoach (06:43.001)
It's not tilt the nerf pool, it's EOMM. But I don't know. I don't know. We'll we'll push it aside. We'll push it aside. What I what I wanted to ask you though, I I I did want to ask, because this is not a topic we've been able to talk about a ton, what changes or or do you think could be made to targeted specifically at casuals that would make the experience better for them? That or do you think maybe the game shouldn't be balanced around?
Coach Mills (06:45.558)
No no not again.
Nerfpool (06:46.087)
don't start with this, you witch doctor No we won't
CaptainCoach (07:11.309)
around lower ranks, excuse me, 'cause we've had a lot of that and I'm I'm kind of having you serve as like devil's advocate to argue with people you've had in the past. Is there a reason to balance around the mid to lower ranks or not, do you think?
Nerfpool (07:24.849)
So are we talking about ranked or are we talking about rivals as a game?
CaptainCoach (07:26.679)
Ranked. Ranked. Yeah. Well, I guess I guess technically as a game, right? Because you know, there are some people who don't play ranked, and I'm sure they make changes based on those specific players too.
Coach Mills (07:28.034)
Well, yeah, right, go.
Nerfpool (07:38.264)
I think NetEase has a big task on their hands because the game is very casual friendly and it does attract the casual casual crowd. I'm a perfect example. I never played competitive games before this. I started dabbling with this one because honestly, because of magic. And then I had to learn things and I got naturally competitive with it, but still I kinda I kinda suck, but I'm all right. So
I don't know if they should balance too much around casuals because take the latest patch, for example. I know so many Star Lord players that are not going to be affected by this. They're not even going to read the patch notes and they're not going to optimize his fall off and not even think about that. They're just going to go pew pew and charge their ult. And that's about it. So I think ranked is probably should be ranked is ranked.
Right. I want as a casual player, I want to enter ranked and know that that's the place where pros play and it's more serious. I want that integrity to be there. I don't want to go in ranked that's built for casuals. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you're gonna create casual modes, make casual modes. 18 versus 18 is a great move. Doom match is a great move. I would even take it one step further, and that's an idea I've had for a long time, and it goes back to another topic.
Which is NetEase's relationship with content creators and what they give us to create content around. Fortnite has this, you know, concept of worlds. You get to build worlds and people get to play in your world, and you actually get paid for that, which is a pretty decent concept. I'd love to see rivals lean a lot more into that direction where they can have, for example, Captain Coach's world or server where maybe you can do some tweaks yourself, select the maps. All the Gunnar schemes are
CaptainCoach (09:27.415)
All the Gunnar skins are free.
Coach Mills (09:29.608)
okay, yeah. Yeah, of course.
Nerfpool (09:30.455)
Extra free. Mantises, butt cheeks look extra saucy. So in any case, I'd love to see more of a spin towards that. But ranked, I think ranks should be just competitive. And it for me as a casual, it should be a really pure competitive experience if I want to get that. Outside of that, maybe make a ranked experience for casuals, something that's a bit more loosey-goosey. I don't know, but I feel they're just not they're trying to balance things and they shouldn't. I think they should go in both directions and separate the two.
CaptainCoach (09:31.743)
Nerfpool (09:59.57)
And go super casual and then super competitive. If they can do this eSport stuff.
Coach Mills (10:02.211)
Kinda to your kind kinda to your talking point, this was a criticism back at Overwatch. Imp, did you ever you played Overwatch, right? You you were an Overwatch grinder or did you never play?
imperator (10:12.141)
I come from League of Legends.
Coach Mills (10:14.457)
League of Legends. okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cap Cap comes on you, League of Legends. Explains like while both of y'all are so toxic. Gee, no, it's but but but there was criticism back in Overwatch for like by participating in ranked like grinding to a certain level, you could unlock the gun skins, right? In in rank. You got points and you got special gun like skins, golden guns and stuff like that. And there was a lot of hardcore players that criticized that because the idea is you force casuals to play your mode.
CaptainCoach (10:15.279)
me too. Me too.
Nerfpool (10:15.804)
boy.
imperator (10:21.495)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's not wrong, not wrong.
Coach Mills (10:41.281)
In the same way that like there's things like skins that you have to get in competitive, like there's a lot of casuals that they might never even engage in competitive at all. Like they would not. They would just play only the casual mode. But when you put skins and certain things behind, you have to achieve gold rank in order to get them. Now all these players that would never even touch competitive, they're forced to touch it. Like they have to play it, they have to grind it. And then it kind of you like almost force the fusion. Like
I can see both sides. On one hand, it's like, it's cool to earn something and it's also cool to like you know, force casuals to be introduced to competitive, but on the other hand, it almost dilutes the experience because it's like, you know, they have to play it, so you're gonna kinda balance for like this giant group of people that are playing competitive even though like they w really wouldn't care, like normally, under normal circumstances. They just want the skin. They want the new w whatever skin that they're giving away at the end of the season. So
I don't know. What do you what do y'all that that kind of talks to what you're talking about, Nerf, but what you think about that? Do you think that that is like is is that forcing the fusion of that in a negative way, or is that fine? What do you think?
Nerfpool (11:44.968)
I think it's cool to give some stuff away for progression. I think that's fine. I if if anything, they're not doing enough of it. Like the fact that it just ends at I think what, platinum? You get like a recolor or something like that, and then it's over. Like you guys get nothing for like reaching higher ranks except a little badge sometimes, right? That's about it. So like pros also need some kind of cosmetics or something to show for it. Like it's it's you can't just say it. So I'd say it's cool, but what I will say personally from my experience in Rivals.
Coach Mills (11:59.704)
Not really. Yeah, we get nothing, yeah.
Nerfpool (12:14.395)
They've done a really bad job at teaching me the fundamentals of the game. Like the fact that the matchmaking itself rewards performance, individual performance in the earlier ranks rather than team performance is the dumbest thing I can think of. I didn't realize that until they came out with that little hand wavy video that they talked about. And you're teaching essentially the Moon Knight that he should spam damage and hit the stats that show up on tab, which is now I'm learning. That's not the fucking game.
It's not about that whatsoever.
CaptainCoach (12:45.551)
It's it's treated like a phone game, Mills, is what it is. Like if you really think about it, like stat tracking and all that, like go, go, go, up like really, if they did it had like a solid tutorial, I feel like, that kind of taught you how hero shooters are played more or less.
Coach Mills (12:58.519)
Yeah. I mean I mean w we we ran into this we ran into the same problem. Sorry to cut you off. We ran into these same problems in Overwatch because of in the beginning of Overwatch there was the metal system. Whereas like you got gold, silver, or bronze, depending on how you ranked a certain set categories. So like if you had gold damage or like gold allims, like the most a limbs on your team. So like someone would be playing like shit and they'd say like, I have gold damage. Like that like none of what you say matters 'cause I have gold damage and it's like
CaptainCoach (13:04.174)
No, you're good.
Coach Mills (13:25.557)
No, like that's that doesn't fucking matter. And but we're seeing the same problem here where it's like, I have S VP, I have MP I have Ace. Like fuck you, I have Ace. It's like motherfucker, you just like has been farming on Moon Knight. Like like like there's no What do you think, coach? Do you think that they should like maybe try to teach people things inside the game? Have like more tutorials, like like one on one fundamental, take space. Or or do you think it's better that people figure that out?
CaptainCoach (13:32.984)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (13:48.546)
I mean, I I had a little experience and imp, I'm gonna pull you into this. Like so imp so so with League of Legends, like damage in League of Legends like actually matters. Like you we both know because that damage sticks, there's not just ridiculous amounts of sustain. So they almost kind of like trick you into thinking you're playing good a lot with the the performance system and like the stats. How much do you think they matter? Do you think like a tutorial could
imperator (13:55.841)
Just imp, yeah.
Coach Mills (13:57.324)
Yeah.
imperator (14:05.751)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (14:17.091)
be good for the game to kind of teach like new players how to play so they wouldn't maybe have to balance around lower ranks.
imperator (14:23.341)
See like okay, so n like Netes is Chinese, right? Like China is one of the most advanced countries when it comes to AI. Okay. I I think they should literally have like an AI system for and it's not like this this basic like AI versus human battles where you're like playing as like obvious like robots, right? Even the hard mode robots are like silver at max at best. You should have a self-learning AI.
CaptainCoach (14:24.495)
Like where would you start with all that?
imperator (14:50.241)
That learns from data harvested from players from across all ranks. And you can play against those in their respective ranks, the way they play. You can have a self-learning bot that generates its gameplay through player data. So like it can it can literally steal the way high low players play, like a self-learning bot. And the longer time goes on, the better it gets, the higher you can up the difficulty. It's like those chess bots, you know? You could have for rivals as well, and you can have low players play against that. If they don't feel comfortable playing in ranked, they can go against their own
maybe a bit higher rank and review their gameplay through there, you know?
CaptainCoach (15:21.239)
That's really interesting. My question to that is: what if the bots in the game start asking for my social security number? What do I do then?
Coach Mills (15:27.529)
Yeah, okay.
imperator (15:28.653)
I mean I would I would give t I I mean I I I don't think they would you know but
Coach Mills (15:31.865)
I if if i is it the black cat voice actors, so then it'll probably give it you br give it up.
Nerfpool (15:32.295)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (15:32.862)
imperator (15:36.906)
Yeah. But but to balance for lower I I don't think they should balance for lower players. You know, like when when Nerf was talking about balancing for lower players and like giving like focusing more on like the creator side, I I think they should give less to creators. So like hold on. It it might sound if it it might sound bad. Hold on, no, no, no. No no no no listen listen listen listen listen. We we we've been we've been we've been hand fed a bit too much, okay? Like the the Cinnabrit tournament that's going on right now, one fifty K tournament, okay, one hundred fifty thousand.
Coach Mills (15:52.302)
Whoa woah woah woah wo chill chill Cut his mic cut his Okay
CaptainCoach (15:53.123)
Whoa, yo, chill, bro.
Nerfpool (15:53.617)
Whoa. All right, get off. Get off. I'm about
Coach Mills (16:04.931)
Yep, wanna talk about that, yeah.
imperator (16:06.839)
There's probably gonna be like not like many like Marvel Marvel creators playing, you know, like more like more so big creators for advertising, right? But the best advertisement a game can get is word of mouth, right? So what if instead of investing like one hundreds of thousands into these tournaments, we invest hundreds of thousands into a new balance team. And this balance team acts for balancing from Celestial and above, and then you have balancing for Grandmaster and below, right?
And when you have a balancing team for Celestia and Above that listens to like Celestia and Above players and gathers actual like high elo players' opinions, you can balance for that section of the game. And you have a separate balancing team for the people that want to have fun, you know? And then when you start having a healthy balancing team, people start saying, Yo, I'm actually enjoying Rivals Rank. Because like every time I go into a VC with my friends that don't play rivals, they're like, you're still playing that dead game. You're still playing that game that has like terrible matchmaking or like terrible balancing. Word of mouth, if you start saying no, they actually have like two different balancing teams.
The balancing is actually so much better in high and low. You actually get start getting people to play the game again for the people that quit the game because of bad balancing or bad matchmaking. Because having a new team, new members that focus on the game helps the game's health itself.
Coach Mills (17:13.229)
Well I so okay go.
Nerfpool (17:13.701)
Yeah. I can so I'll give you I'll give you a couple of things there as well. I agree. I think something like that needs to exist. In terms of tutorials, just a quick one. a game that I got really into was UFC five. And UFC five did a really cool thing where they actually included in-game tutorials by the content creators that do educational content to begin with. So they actually had a really interesting creator program with the creators where they kind of got the, you know, five, six people that are really great at this.
And then embedded that within the actual onboarding experience, which was I think pretty cool, 'cause a lot of guys do a lot of cool stuff here. And I've I've personally learned all of everything that I know about this game through content creators. I learned nothing from rivals. So I'd like to see something like that at least done.
CaptainCoach (17:53.01)
it's that'd be really cool.
imperator (17:54.326)
Rivals has this. Rivals has this, but like in a bit of a different way. That's like you you guys don't probably don't like you maybe have heard of the word, but like it's so poorly advertised that like not many people know of it. In the Rivals Discord server, those coaches exist. They're called Pathfinders. Coach, have you heard of those? There's a there's a special role on the Marv Rivals Discord. It's called a Pathfinder role. You can apply for it if you're a coach.
Coach Mills (18:09.635)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm a pathfinder. I'm technically one. Yeah. Yeah. They exist, yeah.
imperator (18:17.131)
Or like a high yellow player, you want to help lower yellow players, you can apply for a pathfinder role. And that role has like you can host what what do you call those Discord things? Discord meetings or something? Discord those stages, you know where you have a stage, and you can like do vols like help players, but it's like not that advertised. So like if you can ha implement those Pathfinder systems in the game itself, instead of having people to have it in the Discord, boom. They could they could easily do it, they could easily do it.
Coach Mills (18:36.889)
Yeah, and they they could definitely do it. I mean, they could definitely do it. Yeah, yeah. But well wait real quick, I wanted to respond to Imp real quick. 'cause 'cause I know you talked about the Cinnat tournament and you said like 'cause I agree with you about having like a balanced team. Like like having a balanced team, like a playtest team. We talked about that in the last batch. But I I don't really like this framing that it's like we're wasting money on this tournament, so that we we should spend the money here instead. When like you gotta understand, like netties is like printing money. Like there's like
CaptainCoach (18:40.43)
So
Coach Mills (19:05.389)
Mountains of cash. It's there's never a there's never a should we spend the cash here or there? No, no, no. They come out with a summer skin and they just made a billion dollars. Like they have as much money, they could host like a hundred tournaments and they could still make a like a playtest team. You know what I'm saying? Like there's no there's no limit to this amount of money. and like one of the things I think about a lot is perspectives of the casual matter, like you said, like people say like a game's dog shit or whatever.
A lot of times that doesn't actually mirror the reality of the game. It just mirrors like public sentiment. So like there was times where like Overwatch, Overwatch was looked at at so negatively for so long because of the PvE thing. Like they didn't deliver on the the the PvE of the game. So like casuals hated it. Like I mean it like review bombed on Steam. And even when the competitive players like started to like it again, like they implemented changes and they fixed a lot of stuff, no one cared. So like I think when they run big tournaments like this
With someone Cinna and they're trying to like all these casual people in, they're mostly just trying to change their perception. It's like a big advertisement, is all it is. That's that's mainly why there's not gonna be a lot of rivals creators in the in the tournament in the first place, is because it's like it's an advertisement for normies, non non competitive people that play rivals. It's like it's literally just an ad. They're paying 150 bucks for an ad, is what they're doing. and that's a ch that's actually a cheap ad when they're like running ads on like TikTok and they're probably spending way more than that on on like random ads, like to be honest with you.
CaptainCoach (20:31.215)
Yeah I'm
imperator (20:31.863)
I I agree about like the public opinion, right? Like, do you guys remember the XQC tournament? XQC tournament with like like the b the big X season one when XQC was still playing the game. There was like a big, big XC tournament, 200k XQC tournament, okay? Was the game the game was insanely fun in season one if you remember, coach. Every hero was like fun to play and it was fun to watch and it was new, right? Do you think it's better it's a better return on investment to invest big money into tournaments back then or into tournaments now? Because
Coach Mills (20:36.729)
for
Coach Mills (20:43.999)
Yeah, I think so.
CaptainCoach (20:44.845)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (20:47.703)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (20:53.837)
Yeah. Fresh.
imperator (21:01.695)
You the public you're saying you're trying to change the public opinion, right? But because there is a lack of balancing, lack of proper matchmaking, do you think the public perception is gonna be better back then or bet better now? Because now if you like show someone the game, it it's it's gonna be like triple support slope like there's gonna be people like complaining about it, they have triple support, that is that. It it it's hard to like make the game look as good as it was back then, you know? Like you have to fix the route first.
Coach Mills (21:13.399)
Well yeah.
Coach Mills (21:21.113)
Yeah. But the problem is like like a lot of those issues, like a lot of the issues we're dealing with today, they existed back then. We just didn't give a shit. Like we didn't c like triple support was broken in season one. Like it was a hundred percent broken in season one. Like Luna Loki was broken in season one. Like, but like we didn't really care because we weren't we weren't like hyper optimized like we are today. and like I think that
imperator (21:40.759)
Yeah, L Luna Loki, yeah.
Coach Mills (21:48.526)
They're mostly just trying to show it to new audiences that don't really have like they just wanna they just wanna show like, look, it's a fucking dinosaur, let's play the game. I I do understand what you're saying, but like I don't really think that hyperbalancing the game is going to change the minds of casuals or like people that aren't like it's gonna it's gonna make us happy. I don't really think it's gonna make like people that don't play the game happy. I might be wrong, but that that's just my opinion.
CaptainCoach (21:56.515)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:13.303)
I mean, I think the real evidence is who they asked to do the tournament. I mean, no not a knock to Cine Brit. I'm sure sh you know, she makes like great content, but I think sh most people know she's primarily known as a a like a just chatting streamer. Like she's not she's like a very casual Marvels player and she's been like, you know, I think she plays like Squirrel Girl. So I think like her hosting the tournament is obviously like a commitment to try to get new players in, which when they see the game imp like they're not gonna know what's gonna
Coach Mills (22:28.471)
Right. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:42.915)
Like had they're just gonna be like, ha fun turning. And I can I think that's kind of what that that's kind of the point. They're they're they're spending money to attract a casual crowd. But you look at this patch, right? And there's some changes that are clearly directed at the higher ranks. And I wanted to touch back on something Nerfpool said real quick before we move on, which was you guys said you wanted separate balancing for the higher ranks and the lower ranks. What would be your like response to the people who say that would split the p the player base? Is is kind of what I wanted.
Coach Mills (22:54.659)
Yeah. Let's let's actually
Nerfpool (23:09.983)
great, split it. Please split it. I mean I'd fuck, split it. I don't care.
imperator (23:11.701)
Split it yeah, split it split it.
CaptainCoach (23:13.025)
Yeah, you don't care? 'Cause you know, like League has A RAM different stats for heroes and A RAM as apart you know, apart from the main game mode
imperator (23:19.617)
Yeah, they have air imbalancing and then yeah, yeah. Split. Let the casuals enjoy their game and let the high-look players enjoy.
CaptainCoach (23:22.169)
Right.
Nerfpool (23:22.352)
No, I would I would split it. Just make make the casual mode a shit show.
Coach Mills (23:22.659)
My my my my problem I don't I don't with my problem is I don't know if it would a hundred percent make it better. It just might make the bad balancing more apparent, if that makes sense. like
Nerfpool (23:35.61)
It will. And you're touching on something which is we should talk about later, which is like a lot of this goes back to the to the way that the matchmaking works.
Coach Mills (23:44.192)
Yeah, okay. We'll we'll get there. We'll get there for sure. Okay. but okay, all right. Can y'all see what I'm showing y'all when we go through the patch switch? can you can y'all can all y'all see can you see? Can you see what we're going through? we're gonna go through each change one at a time and we're just gonna talk about them, give our give our thoughts, and then we'll move on. We'll also talk about Cyclops at the end. But First let's talk about Angela. So what they did with Angela is now her charge is on a four second cooldown instead of six, two less. Now she gets
Nerfpool (23:46.246)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (23:51.662)
One of us
Nerfpool (23:52.816)
You can see.
imperator (23:57.515)
Yep, yep. Again.
Coach Mills (24:13.901)
fifty more shields and the recovery rate on her shield to bring it back to full health is instead of fifty per second, it's sixty per second. And there's also a faster duration between using your shield. Instead of one point five seconds, it's one second. let's start with you imp. How do you feel about this Angela change? What are your thoughts?
imperator (24:32.151)
Right? I mean I I play Angela. I think other tank players that don't play Angela dislike it. I think they I think almost every every tank or supporter to keep player dislikes an Angela meta. they kind of reverted her original nerf. They kinda over n they reverted her original nerf because they originally wanted her Assassin's Charge cooldown h higher and they buffed her brawl. They made her axes do more damage, they gave her a bit more HP
Coach Mills (24:35.14)
no. Okay, no it's kidding. Yes.
Coach Mills (24:44.301)
Yep. Yep.
CaptainCoach (24:45.94)
Yeah, just go thing.
Coach Mills (24:47.481)
Disco thing, yeah. Wait wait e okay I guess it
imperator (25:01.921)
And now they're just like reverting the nerf. So now she has and brawl and she can go in and out more. the shield HP is also revert, I think. I think that was nerfed in the previous patch, and now it's back to 350. I mean, makes sense. Every every dep there's more DPS, more hit scans now, and especially with Cyclops, I think she needs a survivability. And the cancelling the shield is just like the Emma shield cancel recoveries, like quality of life.
Coach Mills (25:05.699)
Yep. Yep.
CaptainCoach (25:25.241)
She'll be able to do the the cancel like quicker now, right? Like she'll be able get more in. Yeah. Like that's that's honestly I also play Angela. She's gonna be a lot of fun to play. She she's probably gonna be triggering tenacity like Hella, though, because because it's she will be because on this if you get like a charge back to back like pretty quick because of the cooldown, you might actually it might it might create some weird situations. But yeah, no, I I agree like overall these are really great changes for Angela. Like she's probably gonna be like hard meta.
imperator (25:28.639)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (25:29.795)
Should be.
Coach Mills (25:37.913)
That is that is that is interesting. Yeah, she probably will be
Coach Mills (25:55.597)
What what do you think, nerf? What's your thoughts?
Nerfpool (25:57.575)
I love it. I I love any tank that can allow player expression and some creativity whenever you need it. She has that in spades. The most mobile character probably in the game outside of a Spider-Man, most likely. I see her as the police in the lobby. Like she's anybody's off position, she's gonna ding you right back to where you need to be. She's gonna punish bad mistakes. And in my ranks, in the lower ranks, that's great because those are everywhere. So I can I can go crazy. I love this. And this is more in line with her being.
Coach Mills (26:14.476)
In yeah.
Nerfpool (26:25.444)
A bit more balanced both in flight and not. So that's cool. I'm super happy with it. I love Angela. outside of cap.
CaptainCoach (26:31.971)
You like buff goddesses, nerf fool.
Coach Mills (26:32.825)
Yeah. yeah. Of course. so I'm happy for Angela players because I think Angela was one of the weakest tanks, you know, in 8.0. Like super bad in Dino meta, just honestly pretty bad in general. Like power crept out of the game for the most part. I will say that Angela falls into a similar category of tank that Emma has been in the past and Dino does to an extent, where like
Nerfpool (26:34.962)
Hell yeah. Get that redhead sorted.
Coach Mills (26:59.179)
It's an anti tank tank, or she feels a lot like an anti tank tank. Like there are certain matchups that feel completely miserable to play into Angela. and I think it's fine for like a season or two, but I just can't imagine like a permanent Angela meta. Like I think I would lose my mind. There's certain tanks that you just Like if you're playing Magneto, like nonstop into Angela, like you're you hate yourself on certain maps. You're just gonna get pulled off every single time. And if there's two kidnappers, you're just I you're just gonna
So i this character is really good like these these buffs are massive. Like I think that there's a good chance this character is one of the best tanks in the game. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (27:33.965)
Yeah. She went from bottom three to top three tag.
Nerfpool (27:34.962)
Yeah. Yep.
imperator (27:36.425)
Yeah, I agree. Like the the the three the three tanks that are like the most cortisol inducing, like the cortisol spike inducing tanks that you don't want to be meta for a long time are Angela, Groot, and Thor. Like if one of those three tanks is like meta for a too long time, you you're no no tank likes playing into Thor, no tank likes playing into Groot meta with three supports, and no tank likes playing to like a Angela poke hard dive meta.
Coach Mills (27:42.82)
Hey.
Nerfpool (27:43.64)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (27:47.508)
Yes. Yeah yeah yeah no no no yeah yeah you You can give them a little bit and then you gotta you gotta you gotta rail them back in a hundred percent yeah yeah and then just that's yeah but and but hey that I as long as they pull them back like we're good like I just there's just fucking supports we'll talk about in this video and some DPS that just like they never undeploy them.
imperator (28:00.11)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (28:00.926)
You almost gotta deploy them the second deploy the Angela, deploy the whatever, and then it just bother people for a season and then pull them out before they start hating their life.
imperator (28:05.068)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (28:17.453)
They d they don't fucking undeploy them. They're just here forever.
CaptainCoach (28:17.665)
I I I will say one thing too before we move on is the fact that there were reverts here to previous changes. That's something you're gonna notice a lot in these patch notes. And I just want to take a second to like praise NetEase, though, because like it's very rare from my experiences to see developers just revert changes after they're like, yeah, we we messed up, it didn't work out. Like it it's one thing that I criticize League, they would just never revert changes because their developers were just like
Coach Mills (28:30.185)
Yeah, I'm gonna be so
Coach Mills (28:40.952)
No
CaptainCoach (28:45.975)
Always thought they were right about what they were Yeah, go ahead.
Coach Mills (28:48.801)
I'll forgive them for this because what they nerfed Angela when Angela was really really good. There's two changes that we'll talk about later where they nerfed characters they literally just buffed, but they buffed them when they didn't need the fucking buffs in the first place. Like that I will not forgive. This is forgivable. This is not the same as that. Like we'll we'll get there though. I'm I'm I'm still pissed off about we'll talk about it. Okay. Devil Dino. Okay, so Devil Dino no longer grounds flyers.
CaptainCoach (29:01.249)
Yeah. Okay. All right.
CaptainCoach (29:08.719)
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Coach Mills (29:16.899)
So he's not an anti flyer anymore. He can still shoot them, but he can't ground them, which is a really big deal. The the barrier is now two seconds longer, from ten seconds to twelve seconds. And the bleed percentage damage per second on the bleed effect is half, one point five percent from three percent. imp, what do what do you what do you think about this change? Is this enough to kill the dyno? Is
imperator (29:37.282)
Terrible, terrible nerfs, terrible nerfs, terrible nerfs. The nerve they're like the wrong parts of the kit for Dino, in my opinion. The grounding part you barely use, unless like you're playing into a Star Lord like Ultron, which is like Ultron, you're only like playing against a really high level on scrims or like competitive for your play three supports. The body barrier cooldown two seconds, it doesn't mean much. Like the more the problem with Dino is is he can walk up, grab you, and there's a four hundred HP big bubble preventing healing from happening.
Coach Mills (29:41.793)
Mm.
Coach Mills (29:59.278)
Not enough.
imperator (30:06.111)
If you want to nerf Dino, cut the shield's HP in half, first of all. If you want to nerf Dino, reduce the percentage HP he does with his bites. I know that's a big part of his skill, but reduce the percentage a bit. So like he's not like as much of a hard tank buster when he's like doing his shield kidnap combo. And remove reduce his mobility while he's he like you know like those cancels with the shift where you can like jump in there, like leap super far away. Those those like one 180 jumps, yeah.
Coach Mills (30:32.225)
Yeah, of the one hundred eighties, the jump and yeah.
CaptainCoach (30:32.43)
Yeah.
imperator (30:35.379)
N those are the parts which make Dino like a strong tank. His ults
Coach Mills (30:38.393)
I mean, that's those are like the only bits of his skill expression, but yeah, they are broken.
imperator (30:42.379)
Yeah, they are the broken parts as well. Like and his old like his old is like you can increase the cost. He does get old a bit fast because you can apply the bleed to everyone with your right click, right? You can inc but like the damage per second of the bleed effect, I can see it, but like the barrier cooldown is it's like a placebo nerf and the knockdown effect as well. Like it's only worth into some comps.
CaptainCoach (31:03.151)
Yeah, I yeah, I'm in total agreement. I th have a video on where I talked about how they could nerf Dino and I wanted them to maybe f focus more on making him kind of tanky and being able to deal with those like range matchups that just make him blow up like a little better just by making the shield smaller. And I I thought I agree, I I I think the shield should be nerfed too, but I think they should have just made the whole radius of it like a lot smaller and then yeah, obviously break quicker.
And then maybe like potentially if it gets popped, like in in you know, in situations of high damage, give him maybe like a little damage reduction just for him because the fact that you can use it to block heals, like you said, with the kidnaps, it's just obnoxious. And I didn't think that the the beam for the the anti flyer thing, I didn't think that was that bad. Like
Coach Mills (31:45.658)
But but but guys, we could play Iron Man against him now. I'm just trolling. Easy calendar. It's shut shut him down. Yeah, right? No? my bad. No, I no I'm just I'm just trolling. no So there's been this ongoing debate between like pros and casual audiences about the Dino. what do you where do you fit in there, Nerf Pool, about like do you think Dino is just like, you know, is is is he a character that you think is good to be meta or what's your experience, you know, in the ranks you play with Dino?
CaptainCoach (31:50.403)
Yeah.
imperator (31:53.973)
Yeah, I guess bro. Ironman. 'Cause Iron Man is being played a lot.
CaptainCoach (31:56.249)
And then
Coach Mills (32:15.595)
And and you know, this change. How do you feel about it?
Nerfpool (32:18.622)
Good question. I I don't think the lower ranks have figured out what he does. I got a dino yesterday that was flanking me. So I don't know, man. I had a guy on comms going rarr when he, you know, went in with his ult. So I don't think they know what to do with him. I I'm I stand in front of dinos a lot of times as a mag and they just chomp at me, but I don't get thrown back into their team or anything that I would I haven't picked up the character myself.
So I don't think they know what to do with it. I think they just like that he's big and red and you know kind of looks like a devil. So I haven't seen him being a problem. And I actually haven't seen him being played that much, which is kind of wild. I thought everybody would want to be the big dino, but I think because he's not mobile and just kind of sits there in many cases, they just haven't picked him up. whenever I've been against a dino, I love going like Mantis or or Adam or something like that and just doing some fun things there. But
Honestly hasn't shown up a whole lot. It's just people haven't figured out how to play him. They just want something a bit more dynamic. And I don't think he's dynamic at all.
CaptainCoach (33:18.767)
That's honestly surprising. like I was not expect 'cause it he seems like he'd be better in the lower ranks, you know, like
Coach Mills (33:26.165)
He does require a lot of yeah.
Nerfpool (33:26.314)
He dies a lot because they can't heal him.
CaptainCoach (33:29.059)
Right. I I guess everybody's running triple two, like triple TPS, probably more commonly.
Coach Mills (33:32.717)
Yeah, a lot of D VS. There's a lot of Moon Knights and Squirrel Girls that are just like randomly around, you know? Just like the stun, the constant stun. I could see that. I could see that.
Nerfpool (33:32.905)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (33:36.063)
Right. Wanda's good into him too, actually, I think. Like Wanda's actually decent. Yeah. It's obnoxious.
Nerfpool (33:43.839)
He's a bit of an ult battery in the ranks at us, as far as I can see it. And then what I've seen, I think I've played him a couple of times just to try. I don't, as a tank in the lower ranks, I really have huge mistrust of my healers. And it's it's okay. I try to take as least damage as possible, but there's just situations where I'm like, you're right there. Could it help me a little bit? I've seen him die so easy. Once you get through a certain like, I think they really struggle to top him up once he gets low, because he just has such a big hell, big health bar.
That it takes him a while to get him going and he absorbs all the healing.
Coach Mills (34:12.557)
You hear that chat? Top up your fucking dinosaur. no he it's it's one of those things where like the character is actually really cyclical. Like there's a cycle to him with your grab and into your bubble that like once you do that cycle, that's where the value comes from, where you're just kidnapping into bubbling them off into getting a free kill, right? But like with most characters that require a certain cycle, lower rank players have a problem.
Nerfpool (34:18.25)
He is a dinosaur.
Coach Mills (34:40.813)
like executing that cycle. Like it's really important. If you don't execute that cycle, you're not really doing what the character is supposed to do. Like if you're just running it as dyno and just like trading damage 24 7, that's not really what makes them broken in high Elo. What's broken is that cycle. And and to to your point, Imp, like the change from 10 to 12 seconds in the barrier, that might make the cycle slightly slower, but it doesn't make the character worse. Cause they can just wait an extra two seconds and then do the same fucking cycle that they've been doing and just do the same thing.
Like, you know, if they've done it if they did it sixty times in the game now they're doing it like fifty eight times and it's still br busted. So anyways,
Nerfpool (35:18.256)
And and just a quick one before we move on, another problem with the lower ELO is that let's say they do the cycle. Let's say they grab me, throw me into their team, and then they bubble. Their team just looks at me, goes like, Huh, a cap and then moves on. They don't focus me, they don't do anything, I can just jump back out. So that's the that's the other problem that even if you create that opportunity for your team, a lot of times they don't take it.
Coach Mills (35:30.325)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Coach Mills (35:38.846)
all right, let's move on to Magneto. This is a pretty simple one. his ultimate is now the maximum duration goes up from four to five seconds, and the the damage when fully charged is now three fifty instead of three hundred. so I play a lot of Magneto. or at least I I used to play him a lot more. I actually think this is a really good change because it gives you more decision making on the ultimate. Like
You can hold it for like an extended period of time if you're trying to neutralize an ult, like a Star Little and and mostly it's just because this ultimate is like more like this makes the ultimate more defensive oriented. but what do you what do you think? What do you think, Cap how do you feel about this change? Do you think
CaptainCoach (36:17.059)
No, I agree. I was kind of back and forth about this one when I was thinking about it. It's like Mags alt is probably the best part about his kit, but you you really look at it and you you can kind of view this almost as like a like a a buff for the like lower rank Mags, I would say, because yeah, it gives him like more freedom to hold it. But and like in higher ranks, if you hold it that long, most people are just gonna find cover anyway.
So it's like you're not really going to get the max value in a lot of situations. But yeah, I like what you said where it's encouraging people to use it defensively. Like I I get that. I totally get that. And and I I think that to me is like the sign of a good change because you get more options and it doesn't necessarily make him feel any more overpowered to go against. It's just like you have to respect it more, you know, and it it it's it's like a night.
Coach Mills (36:41.473)
Who I like. You could yeah. Yeah, right.
Coach Mills (36:58.187)
Yeah. 'Cause if they if they did something like rate like make it so that it built up charge faster or did more damage, like that would be different 'cause it'd just be like straight up more power and I wouldn't really like that change. But this is just like more more decision making, you know, more length lengthening engagements instead of shortening them, I guess, i if that makes sense.
CaptainCoach (37:15.971)
I think this is like a really clever change overall. And it it it it's not really gonna I don't think it's gonna be bad to play against. Like, but
Coach Mills (37:24.247)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (37:24.362)
Yeah, I think it's gonna promote more magnetos. It just creates the execution, makes it a little easier. And also it's gonna help a little bit more with those Star Lord alts. It's just a lot of times if I you know, if I decide to alt into a Star Lord just to absorb it, it does run out pretty quickly. So this will help, but
I play Magneto a lot. I think other than Cap, he's the only one that I'm almost a champion with. I I love him. this is great. Like it took a while to get the the timing of the ult and the mechanics of the ult. This is gonna make it a little bit easier. This is similar to what they did with Magic's dash recently, where you could just kind of hit it a lot more consistently. I love it. And any good change to Mag is good.
CaptainCoach (37:51.567)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (37:59.492)
Well also a bit more mind games too. You got like more time and stuff.
Nerfpool (38:03.477)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (38:04.365)
Right. Yeah. What wh wh what do you think it? you have any thoughts.
imperator (38:09.203)
I think the ult I think the ultra changes great. Usually like supports think they're in danger when it's a mag ult because they're like usually like lower HP compared to some DPSs, but like when you have the Magold that can like go up like higher, even some DPS with overshield are gonna get like one shot. So like depending on the situation, you might wanna like ult DPS instead of the support that's in their support ult, you know, like depending on like which ults are up for the next fight, you know? So I think it's it's it's actually increasing like the skill seeding of Mag by giving his ult more decision making.
Coach Mills (38:30.585)
Mm.
Coach Mills (38:37.101)
Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. okay, so rogue. So this is like a two part change 'cause first we have to talk about rogue directly getting changed, where now her dash ability that all is also the suck ability, that is down from fourteen seconds to twelve seconds. her defensive stance, the energy that is consumed when she's using her defensive stance goes down from sixty per second to fifty, so she can have her defense save stance up longer.
And then the conversion rate, which is like how much damage she absorbs so that she can punch back for like big chunks of damage, that's up twenty percent from thirty-five to fifty-five percent. So it's that change combined with the team up change, which is basically her team up with Gambit is gonna be far weaker. One percent less on instead of three percent, it's down to two percent for the percentage percentage damage dealt. And but the big change is
the spell field healing is down from fifty-five per fifty five to twenty five flat. So this team up is not gonna make her anywhere near as strong. It's it's not gonna give her crazy amounts of healing or teammates near near her. and like basically this change overall is kind of what some people have been asking for, which is a a a a change of her power away from the team up and into her base kit. what do you think, Ip? What do you think about this this rogue change?
imperator (39:54.973)
Yeah.
See, I I think the average player would say Rogue is dead. But like I I play with cringe alarm on a on a team for MRC. And I I think cringe alarm would say this is a buff. I think I think cringe alarm would this is a buff to rogue. even with the gamut. Because now not only does she get like s how do you say this? Like she like gets like
Coach Mills (40:07.449)
Crunchy alarm's is cringe alarm's insane, yeah.
imperator (40:20.277)
She can dive like without Gambit. Like she doesn't Gambit as much anymore. But even with Gambit, the team up didn't change much because the way we play it in a in a very hard dive comp, we don't really care about the healing. Like it's it the damage is down by 1%, right? But now this makes it so that like you can engage first as rogue. You can engage first as rogue, because you'll have your cooldown up faster again, the fatal attraction, right? But the energy conversion is fifty-five percent now. So like if they're attacking you first, you're gonna get your fully charge up right click out faster with the gambit team up included, you know?
So I think that's like with a well coordinated dive and rogue engaging first, I think this is gonna be better.
CaptainCoach (40:57.271)
Yeah, I I think it's better overall too. I mean plus should just be able to pick her more. I mean that's the kind of the big one. yeah, no, I I I like how they they're kinda leaning into like the unique parts about Rogue too, and the way they're buffing there, 'cause this is the second time they've actually buffed the the shield reflect damage. And it's actually it's it'll yeah, it's it's gonna encourage you to like dive and like use it as part of your combos, which is I I'm gonna probably be playing Rogue. It's gonna be a lot of fun trying this out.
Coach Mills (41:03.651)
Right.
Coach Mills (41:15.971)
Yeah. It's cool. It's really cool.
Coach Mills (41:27.437)
Yeah, it it's it's awesome to go go on up for sorry about that.
Nerfpool (41:27.755)
Yeah, I'd love No, I just the only thing the only thing is anything that improves her neutral and makes her not so dependent on the team up will be great. And I really like using that counterpunch thing. I think reversing the damage and throwing it back at somebody is great. I would even, you know, bump the damage up a little bit so it feels a bit more impactful. Maybe. I don't know what that's gonna do to the character, but I think this is great.
CaptainCoach (41:48.227)
Just gotta run it down more, take more damage with it. Dive into the our whole team.
Nerfpool (41:50.559)
Hell yeah.
Coach Mills (41:50.734)
Yeah, I like Yeah. Yeah, I I like I like the whole aspect that it's like it it's it's something that is used like it it punishes enemies for hitting it, like for actually shooting it for like I like that concept. It kinda reminds me of Doomfist and Overwatch, where there was like a powered powered block that could like be built up if enemies did a certain amount of damage. I like I like that whole concept and yeah, I think this is good. I in general, I hate characters that are super reliant on a team up too.
Nerfpool (41:53.183)
Make those support sweat.
CaptainCoach (41:55.149)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (42:18.435)
to to see any play, which was kinda was rogue. I rogue was probably like one of the worst tanks without the team up before this. I think she's probably.
CaptainCoach (42:25.888)
You realize she's gonna be able to one shot people with this, right?
Coach Mills (42:29.291)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, most likely, yeah.
CaptainCoach (42:32.407)
Should be yeah. 55% rogue was what like 600 health? That's 300 health plus like any damage amps. Like you could literally one shot people with this. It's insane. It's an insane buff. Like, and people, you know, and people in rank, when you dive, they'll just hit you right away. Like they won't think twice about it. So, like, you're gonna actually ac actually have to consider like whether or not you're gonna hit the rogue and like make sure you get away before you start hitting her, or she's just gonna pop your support. Like, I I think rogues gonna be busted with this. I think she'll she'll be like S tier.
Coach Mills (43:00.409)
Okay. okay, but that's this is the the only Vanguard changes. real quick, is there any changes that you wish were included here? Any Vanguard changes you wish were included here?
Nerfpool (43:12.339)
Hmm.
imperator (43:13.933)
Strange Buff Strange Boff Strange
Coach Mills (43:15.705)
Strange? Strange what? Both strange? Okay, wait, wait, imp, imp, imp. I have I have a specific gripe that I'm I'm pissed off about. I want to hear if you have the same criticism. when I play strange, if they are on White Fox Luna back line, where Luna gets the fucking days, White Fox has the days on six seconds, and she has the teleport with a shield, you can never fucking hit a strange ult. There's zero window. Like I was I was thinking about it, it's like
Nerfpool (43:16.468)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (43:17.497)
Strange.
imperator (43:35.941)
yeah, you can't play strange dad, you can't play strange dad.
Coach Mills (43:43.558)
One of those when the days cancel, both the days is cancel, and the Luna freeze cancels, and the fucking White Fox teleport often will cancel. There's no there's zero don't don't even forget that when White Fox ults, there's a window of where she's unstoppable, so she can't be CC'd during the activation of her ultimate. So and then of course when Luna ults, she just like
doesn't get hit either. So like there's literally no window that you'll ever hit a fucking strange hole. It it just doesn't happen. Like against those characters. Yeah. I I I've been I've been bitching about it on stream like nonstop 'cause it's just like
imperator (44:19.217)
Yeah, I I I mean every tank had like their moment in like the sun, okay? The last time Strange had their his moment was when Gamma was a thing, right? And and that was like when the game just came out and like people didn't realize like like it wasn't that competitive yet. And and then now we have modern, like we had Groot had like three seasons. Thor had a season for himself, Mag had a season with the team up, Thing wa was meta for a bit, like Angela on release.
Coach Mills (44:24.848)
Ha ha.
CaptainCoach (44:25.827)
Mm-hmm.
imperator (44:46.689)
Cap was meta for two different seasons, one with like flank Jeff and like one more recently. Like every tank has like got a lot. But like Strange, like every time they Strange feels a bit good to play, like A tier. I'm not asking him for like for him to like S plus, right? But the last time he like A tier like when the Invas team up came out. And like the season after that, they instantly nerfed his shield. And then nerfed his the his shield recharge. And then they nerfed his shield HP the season after. Like he just.
They they can't keep like strange in 80. Like he has to like be weaker because like I think mainly for like lower ranks, they don't really care like about like the ult of strange, right? So like they don't CC strange in his oath. So like I I'm guessing he gets complained about a lot in like the mid-midder like more mid-ranks. But like I don't even want like more damage or like more HP. I just want them to like revert the shield changes and and make it so that a shift the wind-up gets like cut in half. Cause like Strange
CaptainCoach (45:15.276)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (45:26.861)
Strange is
Coach Mills (45:37.433)
Mm. Yep.
imperator (45:38.631)
winding up to fly is like slower than homelander trying like fly in the last episode, you know? Like the strange takes so long to like float up. Like if they could just like cut it in half, his his shift would feel so much more nicer to use. And you would hit like you could hit better earls as well.
Nerfpool (45:42.411)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (45:43.737)
W fucking four, yeah.
CaptainCoach (45:54.96)
I feel like Strange is cool enough to be a season nine character, but had the curse of being one of the release heroes, so he's just weaker than everything else. Like yeah, like 'cause you're like what you're describing is is yeah, just like making him qu quicker, faster, less counter play. Like that's every new hero, like.
Coach Mills (46:01.625)
yeah.
imperator (46:02.891)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (46:02.976)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (46:10.605)
Bright, yeah, yeah. He he he's gotten yeah, he needs that power creep. He needs that that guang guang power creep, like ASAP. Alright, th this this one might be a hot take. and and here's the thing, my general philosophy is if a character's been too strong for too long, it's okay if that character is bad or weaker, like for a substantial amount time. I would personally like if they they made it so that Tank Pool's swords did anything. Like
CaptainCoach (46:18.263)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (46:38.337)
I I I could even see like a further nerf to the character if you want. But my problem is still the only way to build that character is with his guns. Like I hate I hate generally just the whole thing where it's like that's the question I always get when I'm playing tank pool. Whoa, do you use his swords? Use his sword. No, I don't fucking use his swords. Like I'll use the swords if I'm max level or I use it like in like one percent of the time. But it would be cool if there's like if you're gonna nerf one part of his kit, like give you give him a reason to like or give you options, like like
Build this way or build that way. Right now it's just like build this way. other than that, that's the only change I would give a shit about. I think. I think all the other changes are fine. yeah, buff Thor's ult, but I my it's hard because I think Thor's only allowed to be this strong in the neutral because it's shit ult. So it's fine.
CaptainCoach (47:24.547)
Hulk's gonna be a bottom three tank and I'm still not asking for anything.
Coach Mills (47:28.013)
There's no way he's gonna be about a thank you're capping. You're just you're so cappy, you're capp he's not, no, no, no, no, no, he's not, he's not, he's not. He's definitely not. He's definitely not. There's no way.
CaptainCoach (47:31.279)
Bottom three tank. Yes he is. No, he is. And I'm still I have principles. I Hulk doesn't need buffs. Just nerf just nerf all the DPS.
Nerfpool (47:41.772)
But I would like I would like the lower ranks to enjoy him too.
imperator (47:43.654)
I I think I think I think I think in solo queue I think in solo queue it might be a bottom three thing in Scrims like we we are running some cap we are running some cap Hulk combs like strange Hulk and it's like working nicely with like a brawl or like hybrid But you need communication to make Hulk like shine. You need good communication with your team and in solo Q you're not gonna find that communication I think in solo Q like only like the Br like the lifeless like the You have to you have to play Hulk like Spider-Man OTPs You have like be the day of Hulk like you have to like
CaptainCoach (47:47.651)
He he's
CaptainCoach (47:57.487)
Is it
imperator (48:10.017)
Thousands of hours and like you make one mistake, you fuck up your entire shit, you die. Like you you have to like have like a perfect like comp to play Hulk against and like hope like the enemy supports like are like a bit brain brain dead to make Hulk like not like a bottom three tank 'cause like just play Dino, just play Emma, just play th like yeah, just counter swap. Like Hulk's like yeah.
CaptainCoach (48:26.573)
You can just swap and yeah.
CaptainCoach (48:31.737)
Hook's hooks ass Mills. I'm telling you, he's he's bottom three tank right now. After this patch, is Angela Buffs.
Coach Mills (48:37.593)
I don't think I can agree. I don't think I can agree. I mean, like, once you get into the ELOs where like everyone is like going super try hard with like triple support like bullshit, there's like a whole bunch of tanks that just don't work. Like, I think Thor is in the same category. Like when people are just like hyper optimized playing like Dino Emma, like all the all the like the hyper like meta characters, like
CaptainCoach (48:55.055)
I think Thor's bottom three too, by the way. I is that why you're disagreeing, is because I'm saying Thor's not. I think Thor's also bottom. It's probably Hulk, Thor, Angela right now.
Coach Mills (48:58.625)
Wa war
Well they they s they suffer from the same problem. Like they suffer from the same problem, which is like they just die. Like they just literally blow up. When people like shoot you, they just you just die, right? yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a pretty big problem. Yeah, no, no, no, no, like I I agree with that. It's like it's just hard I don't know. T Tan's are hard for me 'cause like like I think we we kind of all agree that like yeah, like like Penny is like super niche, but then there's like fucking a penny player like rank one right now. but like yeah, but like they don't really fit
CaptainCoach (49:09.743)
That's a pretty big problem for a tank.
CaptainCoach (49:26.115)
Penny's OP. That character's OP.
Coach Mills (49:30.849)
in the meta but they just like can kinda work. like I don't I don't even know how to process that character but
CaptainCoach (49:36.547)
Any changes to nerf pool? How you feel about Cap right now?
Nerfpool (49:38.478)
I I mean, look, the you guys brought up something which is very true, which is certain tanks are just so difficult to play and enjoy in solo queue, which is where I typically live. I don't duo. I can't tell you the pain I've gone through to be a cap main since season one all the way to now and learned a character and just go through that. I want to learn Hulk a lot more. I think I've I heard Captain Coach talk about his philosophy of Hulk.
Which is kinda like a bouncer at the front, just swatting people off and doing what you need to do. And I've tried that and it's enjoyable. But I agree it's super dependable on your team. And my teams are a little special. So I'd love to pick up and play but it feels like I'm throwing. You know what I mean? It just and I and it's it's a high skill skill ceiling character. And no one works with you, and comms are impossible in solo queue and in lower ranks. So it's just like I might as well just play Magneto and nut on cloak and dagger's forehead with a with a ult so.
CaptainCoach (50:32.489)
yeah. Yeah. Hulk is really bad in the lower ranks. So then he's really bad in like the highest, highest ranks. He's really good in like the upper middle ranks. That's like where Hulk's like good where people actually communicate but don't just like know how to hard counter you. But I yeah, I like I like what it like there are some comps, like with Hulk specifically, where you could just pick and like it it's really, really good. And that's it's such a c like like kind of why I want you know, stacking again. So I gotta, you know, people of all means of different heroes could start just
Coach Mills (50:40.951)
Right. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (51:02.489)
playing whatever comp they want and getting it together. But other
Coach Mills (51:05.497)
Triple triple stack. All right. Let's let's let's move on to the duels. There's a lot to talk about here. I'm not gonna lie, this is gonna be really hard for those of you who are listening at home. So the first character we're gonna talk about is is black cat. If you can't see the screen, I'm gonna try to summarize this these changes in the best way I can, but there is a lot of fucking changes to Black Cat. They removed one of the charges to her primarily primary mob mobility ability, like her, her, her main dash. They removed one of the charges. So it was two charges.
Nerfpool (51:11.213)
Jesus.
Coach Mills (51:35.298)
It took 10 seconds to build. Now it's one charge and it takes eight seconds to build, which is like a huge cap to her potential like movement overall. Like when she tries to set up for a dive, it's about like how much she can put into a dive. And now you know now she she can only do it once, right? her Phantom Pursuit, which is the intangible ability, is just five less damage on that one. a lot of her fortune abilities cost more. the crystal.
The ring, the fish, they're all 300. the fortune cost for the orb, the flame orb that lets them see through see things. That is 300, which is from hundred 100 to 300. And now it can't reveal things behind objects. So, like, I mean, like a whole bunch of these are just like completely useless or very difficult to buy. And then the ultimate now, the dash distance goes down from 60 meters to 40 meters. it doesn't completely reset.
Now it adds three seconds onto the onto the remaining time, but there is a maximum of ten seconds. So it cannot go forever. So you're not gonna see those like those infinite lasting black cat ults. Right. Yeah. also the second hit damage on the ultimate, the percentage damage got got removed. So now you're not doing 180 damage to to 600 HP tanks anymore. You're only doing a hundred and
CaptainCoach (52:40.661)
Octa kills.
Coach Mills (52:59.917)
during the ultimate with that second the the two slashes. which is one of the problems also with her ultimate because not only could she can continue the whole thing, but she could just literally just kill tanks. I mean I I'm sure each of y'all have Yeah. You're You're also getting less fortune from three to two hundred. So she can't completely run through your team. If she is running through your team with her ultimate like a tank can get in the way and like we're not gonna just die to her. Like if we have full HP in all of our cooldowns, like we would legitimately just die to this fucker.
CaptainCoach (53:09.123)
Yeah. This is the this is the best Yeah, this is the best change for for there's a lot, but this is the best part right here.
Coach Mills (53:29.675)
hero in her ultimate because of this because of her percentage damage you know I was I was I was tuning into Lightstream he talked about it a lot like the f the orb which is like the thing you use to see through walls it's like hard to even justify buying that anymore I mean you can't use it through through walls anymore so it's like you have to put it in the open it costs 300 which is a lot and people can just shoot it so like it's hard it's just hard to justify
Like this is probably one of the most severe nerfs to a character that I think we've ever seen. Like this takes a care like this is a like a huge they nerfed her in many ways all over the place. how do you how do you feel? How do you feel about Captain Coach? What do you what are you thinking?
CaptainCoach (54:16.301)
Well, I I was seeing a lot of complaints about the way they went about nerfing her because you're lowering the skill ceiling. But I I do think the way they're changing her. I mean, I don't play her. I'm just kind of trying to get my like best interpretation of it is like you'll actually have to make a choice now when you're spending your coins. But it seems like they balance the coins in such a way where the choice is gonna be obvious most of the time. So it's not gonna be really be a choice. And I think that's the issue. I might be wrong, but
Obviously the character needed nerfs. I I do like they what they did with the ultimate. the cost and everything. I and then the d the double dash two I think was also good. But everything else I'm probably not the right person to ask. But overall I mean like obviously she needed nerfs. I th I I think she'll probably be balanced, actually.
Coach Mills (54:59.545)
Wha w what do you think, Imp? What do you th what do what are your thoughts on it?
imperator (55:03.893)
See as as as someone who is well versed in the flankly blessed universe, you know, as I have a few friends who like to play black cats, these these nerves are like the worst possible nerves they could have done. Like they have no clue what they're doing. like I I'm sorry, like they didn't take any they took away skill expression from black cat, okay? Let me you why. The the the the the like the
Coach Mills (55:10.445)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (55:18.361)
I'm
CaptainCoach (55:18.904)
Right.
imperator (55:30.207)
The how do I say this? The eights part of Black Cat isn't like her having two dashes. Or okay, her damage on the ult might be a bit overtuned, but the her her annoying part is that she's able to infinitely go into the shop and use invisibility and iframes. Do you guys see that nerfed? No. It's it's still a thing. She can still go invisibility without cooldown. The shop there's no there's no cooldown on it.
CaptainCoach (55:43.855)
Airframes, yeah. No.
Coach Mills (55:48.089)
I mean
Coach Mills (55:51.972)
Well w w which which ability is the invisibility? Isn't it the which one of the isn't it let me let me look. I I'm pretty sure that that's one of the ones that the cost got
CaptainCoach (55:58.734)
I thought yeah, I I s I assume the cost went up for that.
imperator (55:59.182)
I never learned the names.
imperator (56:04.685)
Chernobylks Crystal is like I I don't ring up Zona as the TP. Mental fish is like the the grounded. Yeah, let's without the shop. Let's wait about the shop.
Coach Mills (56:11.256)
where's where's all the goddamn
Nerfpool (56:11.736)
But the execution of it is the same. She just disappears. It's just makes no sense.
imperator (56:16.055)
Helm of Hades, it's Helm of Hades. Yeah, so Helm of Hades hasn't gotten unchanged. You can still go infinitely invisible. The iframes, which one is that? The ones that give you iframes?
Coach Mills (56:17.657)
Helmut Hades, okay, yeah.
Coach Mills (56:23.993)
yeah, she sh that that's that's an ability that hasn't knocked on gotten it got it's five less damage. It's five less damage, yeah, here.
imperator (56:29.003)
Yeah. So Yeah, so she can still go invisible, permanently without a cooldown. So that that legit that skillless part is still overtuned. they decided to nerf her actual skill expression if it's just having two dashes and relying on your movements, and they just killed like a a big part of her kit. Like if you want to actually nerf Black Cat, make it so that the iframe dash doesn't give any goal back.
CaptainCoach (56:48.324)
Yeah.
imperator (56:56.117)
It costs three hundred instead of one fifty and increases cooldown a bit. Make it so that you when you buy an item from the shop, your shop goes on a cooldown and you can't instantly go back to the shop to go invisible again and again and again. Make it so that don't take the walls of the orb, like the wall hex of the orb, but instead make the orb more expensive and put the orb on a fifteen second or ten second cooldown. Like don't take away skill expression and decision making. Just make it so that it's more risk, but you get the same reward instead of like actually killing a hero.
CaptainCoach (57:22.937)
Well wouldn't I wouldn't like removing the two dashes though force you to use your coins on like other meth like other mobilities? So I I think there is a Yeah, like so i wouldn't you say that you just have to like you're kinda like forced in the way you have to use your abilities now a bit more imp like you're more limited? Like and I think there's still skill expression there.
Coach Mills (57:30.659)
Yeah, no, it that that's a big that's a huge nerf. Removing a dash is a is a massive nerf. It's it's huge.
imperator (57:43.17)
Y you yeah, you're more limited in your in your kit. Like you're more limited in your kit. Like there's like you have like rely way more on the shop now. And like the shop they're they're forcing you to like use the invisibility more and you like use the eye frames like which is like a more skillless expression. Like there's not much skill expression like spamming the shop and going invisible and you're like using your iframes. Like it's it's cooler to like go in dash dash and like use your like mobility and like reward people that like put like time into the kit, you know? Like if you want to nerf like black cat like first, like instead of like
CaptainCoach (58:06.243)
I get what you're saying.
Yeah.
imperator (58:13.077)
An entire like this is gonna be for an entire season. Like unless they do a hot fix. Like instead of like doing a like a manifesto of huge nerves that are gonna kill a character, start little by little. So nerf the shop, add a cooldown, make the items that are broken, the invisibility iframes, like the wall hex more expensive and give them a like slightly longer cooldown the others. Start with that, see how our win rate goes. Is our win rate still dominant? Quick one week hold fix. Boom. We're nerfing her damage on this and that. Like we can't just instantly like cut her.
Coach Mills (58:16.505)
Yeah. Yeah, no.
Coach Mills (58:37.561)
See I d I d see the my I don't I don't think I really agree with you, Imp. Like I I do understand that like die players are mad. I know Light's mad, I know Necris is probably mad, like people are mad. I like the opposite approach. I wish they would do this more, where they just fucking kill a character and then they can do the reverse, which is let's give them back things, let's add things, let's buff things instead of the nickel and dime approach, which they've seemed to do with every fucking character, and then
We're we'll talk about Gambit in a bit. That's what they've been doing with Gambit. They just keep slightly nerfing him. But it no no he's he's not different. He's not different. But that's what you're asking for is small changes. What if it's not enough? What if it's not enough?
imperator (59:11.605)
No Gambit is different. No no Gambit is different. No no no no gambit is different. Gabin different. Gambit is different. Gambit is different you can you can no no no
Nerfpool (59:19.022)
Mom, Dad, stop fighting. Gosh.
imperator (59:20.137)
No, no, no, no. Gambit is not different. No, no gambit is not different. Gambit is like is like s it's like invisible woman. Okay, Gambit is like invisible woman. Invisible woman was like disgustingly broken.
Coach Mills (59:26.989)
Like I don't care about skill expression. Like this character's but this character is disgustingly broken on live right now. Like completely disgustingly broken.
imperator (59:32.565)
No, no, but well, no, no. Invis, Invis, Invis was disgustingly broken. What do they do with Invis? They give her self-shield 50% 50 less HP instead of nerfing her direct damage and direct healing. Gambit was like broken for so long, and instead of nerfing his ult, they nerf his damage on like by like five on like the card's splash damage. They nerf it by five, like.
Coach Mills (59:42.049)
No, no, I agree, yeah.
Coach Mills (59:49.048)
Yeah, but what if they did this instead? What if the first nerf they did to Gambit was just like, fuck your damage, fuck your old, fuck this, fuck that, and then people were like, they ruined my character. It's like, well, at least it's not a permaband character. And then we can buff him back. No, I'm just saying it was like this, where it's just like a wall of text. Like a whole bunch of shit.
imperator (59:59.438)
If the first nerf to Gambit was as ult if the first nerf to Gambit was as ult, it would have been good. If the first you don't need a wall of tax for Gambit, though. If the first nerf to Gambit was movement speed, cut in half. Damage boost, cut in half. Like if you cut his literally in half and make it cost more, then it would have been fine. Black Cat, they didn't target the most broken abilities. The most broken abilities are her shop infinite resets.
Coach Mills (01:00:15.917)
Yeah, I mean they
Coach Mills (01:00:21.581)
Yeah, it's she's st she's still really bad though. Like this really makes her a lot weaker.
imperator (01:00:25.643)
Yeah, th th this is bad, but like they made her bad in the wrong way. Like they made her bad like isn't it in like like like you c
Coach Mills (01:00:28.767)
It's I mean b i is she permaband or is she not permaband? Is is she running my lobbies or is she not? Like it I don't think like I I get what you're talking about. Yeah, which is I think is I think is fine. I think that's good.
imperator (01:00:35.681)
But she's she's unplayable, unplayable now. Like if you if you killed her shop, if you killed her shop, if you killed her shop, which like the most annoying part because she like permanently goes invisible, then you force people to like play their kit more right. You can't fuck like if you d you have to like maybe save your dash instead of using both. Because you use both and use your infinite shop resets. But now you might have to save a dash to go out instead of having to like rely on your invisibility. Like now people just will just rely more on visibility and it's like gonna be more annoying to kill a black cat.
Coach Mills (01:01:01.079)
No, no, I'm like like I agree, like the character needs like like she's gonna be terrible and they didn't nerf her the right way, but I like I just think that it's better that they did this than like I don't fucking know. Like what if they only nerfed Phantom Pursuit by like instead of seventy five they brought it down to fifty, that's all they did. And it's like, yeah, y'all don't you don't like the y'all yeah, but that this is why like I don't think that this I think this is actually reasonable. what do you Captain Coach? How do you feel about this? Do you think
imperator (01:01:18.622)
Well that is just stupid, that's just stupid, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:01:27.123)
D do you think the way that they nerf things matter, or do you think it's more important about the severity of the nerf? Like how what's your thought thoughts on it?
CaptainCoach (01:01:33.356)
Yeah, I mean you don't want to encourage playstyles that are annoying to go against. I mean, but it's at the same like okay, I mean we're gonna get to Daredevil here in a second. And I'd rather them, yeah, like you said, I'm kinda in your boat, Mills. Like just just nerf a hero than figure it out. 'Cause you know, the longer a hero is in the game, especially one as complex as this, the people are going to continually get better. so yeah, I mean like obviously I think you wanna keep skill expression in the game though. Like
Obviously. So if a if a black cat player says that I I pr I or someone who plays with black cat then I'm gonna agree with imp ultimately. But I I this character needed nerfs and needed nerfs now, so I'm kinda glad that we just don't have to worry about it for a little bit, you know, 'cause there's just so many other like busted characters right now.
Coach Mills (01:02:01.274)
I mean, yeah, we both agree on that, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:02:18.103)
I I I guess if they're gonna miss the mark no matter what, like if they're gonna either try to nerf it and then like nerf it wrong and like not the important things and the character's still really busted, or they like try to nerf it like this and they nerf it wrong and it just ruins the character's identity. I would rather this than that. Like I would rather this than what they did with the hotfix to Elsa. Like 'cause you know remember they when they hotfixed Elsa like a week after she came out and it just didn't do anything, the character was still busted. Like I just don't think we could run through another half season of
CaptainCoach (01:02:46.545)
I agree.
Coach Mills (01:02:46.743)
this character just being permaban worthy.
Nerfpool (01:02:49.537)
Just the nerves clash to design of the character. The character, like she feel I played her lot, you know, as much as I could and as she came out. She's gonna feel completely different with this. It's almost like I'm pigeonholed down a specific way to play her. So from just a complete like I don't care about the numbers necessarily. I just care about the way that, you know, she feels. She was design-wise, I think, supposed to be a super creative character with lots of tools, teleports and going through walls and all that kind of stuff. Now, I don't know, I need to test it myself, but it just feels like.
My options are limited. So what's the point of designing a hyper creative character and then limiting their options? That that's the part that I'm I'm wrestling with.
Coach Mills (01:03:24.825)
That That is a good point. I think it would make more sense to instead of making everything so much more expensive, like you could weaken the effects of things. but like people get to do them more. You know, like like 'cause because imagine if it like faded, you know, like after like six seconds or something, or like the shield didn't like they could do they could do a ton of different things to it. I d I do agree. Like it it is stupid that
CaptainCoach (01:03:39.703)
Only half of our body's invisible. Yeah. The fact that it's instant is so stupid, by the way. It should fade.
Nerfpool (01:03:44.621)
Well, so I wanna bring up yeah, exactly. That's the problem. Yeah.
I'll rage for 30 seconds about it. Every character that disappears into this game has two things that that disappearance follows: an audio cue and a visual cue. When Cloak fades, you can see her floating around like a little fart. When Psylock fades, there's a little moth or butterfly, whatever the hell. You can kind of follow her if you have eyes. This one just disappears. They don't even know where she which direction she went, nothing, even Invisible Woman.
Coach Mills (01:04:17.849)
Yeah, and if you hit her, she still goes back to being invisible. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:04:21.229)
Yeah, so it's like that's the piece and like I I thought my computer was glitching when I first saw it 'cause she was just think she was gone.
CaptainCoach (01:04:26.745)
Yeah. It it does make you like it triggers that sense and you know, 'cause you just you just poof, gone. At least Silac has the yeah, right, right. No sound either. It's just like I don't even hear. Yeah. Maybe there is a sound, I don't know, but
Coach Mills (01:04:26.849)
It does it actually looks like a glitch, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:04:32.697)
Yeah. It was like, did it disconnect?
Coach Mills (01:04:41.289)
Well So I guess we'll see on this character whether or not they're gonna revert things if they're eventually buffer. Maybe they'll just like, you know, let a couple seasons pass by where people forget and then they'll like just revert everything like they've been doing. I don't fucking know. I don't know.
CaptainCoach (01:04:50.905)
Just or you know, she's in the gulag right now. Then all of a sudden one of the black cat players figures out some new way to play with her. Like like Bruce Wayne from like the Dark Knight Rises climbing out of the pit. Like one of the black there's like all of a sudden there's a top five hundred black cat that's just like running lobbies. Let's see how they're playing. wait, like like that's you gotta let it happen organically to an extent, you know? So but
Coach Mills (01:05:03.859)
Okay.
Coach Mills (01:05:12.929)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:05:17.163)
Okay, let's let's talk about Blade. this character that has seemingly been buffed like seven times and is still terrible. This character, now the unstoppable after the Scarlet Shroud, which is his block, now it it's one second instead of point four seconds. So you could actually fully stop like a CC. and it's it's like the window is much larger. With the sword stance, the initial hit with the Daywalker dash goes up from twenty to thirty, and the damage per spin goes from eight to ten.
So it's in total increased damage of fifty two to seventy.
CaptainCoach (01:05:48.942)
my god, we got we got we went from plus one every pl patch to plus two. Let's go double the buff.
Coach Mills (01:05:51.482)
So so AMP, tell us about this new emerging blade meta that we're about to run into, right?
imperator (01:05:53.365)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:05:54.063)
Zoo Young, relax.
imperator (01:06:01.771)
I skip blade buffs. Every time I read patch notes and I blades now, I just skip it. No matter what you do to that hero, it's never gonna be meta. That hero needs a rework. It it has probably been like I in in like the history of gaming, out of any like I don't know if it's for overwatch, but like out of any League of Legends or like World of Warcraft class, League Hero, any hero ever released, I don't think b any hero comes close to being as bad as Blades. Like the entire kit, the entire design is terrible on Blade. Like no matter what they do to this hero until they rework him.
Coach Mills (01:06:03.321)
Ha ha ha
CaptainCoach (01:06:04.367)
Ha ha ha
Nerfpool (01:06:05.082)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:06:07.434)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:06:08.778)
Ha ha.
Nerfpool (01:06:09.242)
That guy.
imperator (01:06:31.891)
no matter how many times they buff him, like unless they make his sword like the same fucking length as his like gun, like the range of it, like he's not gonna be a good hero. Like he'll never be a good hero no matter t no matter how many times you buff him. You have to rework him.
Coach Mills (01:06:46.969)
Yeah, I mean I genuinely agree. I d I I I've I mean I've talked about this so much. It's just like characters that don't have burst damage are just like useless. Like in in general. They're just useless. He just doesn't have burst. Like this is not burst damage. Like burst damage is like a bucky shooting you twice in the head and you die. Or like a gene lighting you on fire or like a daredevil burst. Like this is just not burst. It's just like
CaptainCoach (01:07:06.039)
Yeah. There's just too much mobility in the game. Like I d this hero's so easy to avoid and just like you just blow up and
Coach Mills (01:07:10.933)
It the the way that he's designed could work as a tank. Like if they changed him completely, but it would never I don't think it will ever work as a DPS unless you like turn his stats to something fucking insane. Like give him five hundred HP and then he is a tank though. What am I talking about? Like, I don't know.
Nerfpool (01:07:27.664)
Yeah, I don't think I don't think it matters what they do to him. The could have been the coolest it doesn't ma it doesn't matter whether they brought him or nerf him, like the they could have made him the coolest character in the game. And then when the trailer came out first and like his music was playing with the old charge and I was like my the Marvel fanboy made was like, Hell yeah. And then the execution was just piss poor and I think he just needs to be reworked from the ground up. I agree.
Coach Mills (01:07:31.186)
It's it's so funny they just keep puffing it but it doesn't matter.
Coach Mills (01:07:51.202)
Alright, fuck it. Alright, fuck it. Give him on his on his pistol dash and on his ul give it a hundred percent. A hundred percent anti anti heal. Let's go. that'd just fucking break the game, but I I don't I don't know. I don't like I don't know. I like
CaptainCoach (01:07:51.5)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:08:01.531)
He also feels clunky. He's supposed to be mobile it's just I don't know. Doesn't work.
Coach Mills (01:08:06.617)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's let's move on from that. you know, F2 here. All right, let's talk about Daredevil. So these are the big changes to Daredevil. So the radar sense, which is his ability to see people through walls. it's down from fifty meters to forty meters, so he can't see people quite as far away. the targeting of his sonic pursuit is now twelve meters instead of twenty meters, so he could target people, but he has be closer to that person in order to target them. And his objection, which is his deflect,
That is now one point two seconds instead of one point five. Very long deflect. So so yeah, overall you know, Imp, you have some a lot of strong opinions about dive. What do you think about Daredevil and these changes?
imperator (01:08:50.017)
And the first the first one is like doesn't really matter that much, the radar sense. Like you're not gonna you just get a bit closer, it's fine, you can still utilize it properly. The dash targeting distance is Sonic Pursuit is like the F right? Where it gets the movement speed. The
Coach Mills (01:09:06.105)
E well, yeah, it's like like the pinging of somebody and then the and then like yeah, and then and and then dashing on them onto them. Yeah.
imperator (01:09:10.177)
Yeah, the ping of someone. That that one is like
That one is a bit you're you're gonna feel that as a Daredevil player, but the objection one is like that one hurts a little bit to Daredevil's kit. Daredevil is like how'd I say this? Daredevil is a hero that somehow got balanced for the lower rank players. let me answer like this. When you play Daredevil on release, you had Devil's Chain, you had Devil's
nonchucks or whatever it's called. I forgot the devil I forgot the other one. It's devil's chains and like the the throw what what? Devil's throw, yeah. So back then devil's chain did more damage than devil's throw. a bit more. And you actually have to aim devil's chain properly because if you hit it too far, it does no damage. If you hit it too close, it does no damage. But if you hit it right it does good amounts of damage. So that's the skill expression of Daredevil. Instead of nerfing the the devil's throw
Coach Mills (01:09:46.691)
Devil's throw, I think. I think it's devil's throw. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:09:49.924)
Billy Clubs.
Coach Mills (01:10:02.689)
Right. Right on the X, right? Yeah, yeah.
imperator (01:10:13.217)
They decided to nerf Devil's Chain not once but like two times. And they let the throw be as it is. So now you have Daredevil players like running around brainlessly, just spamming E right click, E right click during their combos, and it doesn't take any skill. There's n you don't have to aim anything. So instead of nerfing like the part that's like making Daredevil actually like annoying, kinda and like low skill, which is like just E right click, E right click, they're nerfing other things, right? But I wish they would have just made Daredevil like actually skill expression. Because Daredevil on release was way more skill expression. You would just have chain combos, like
Crazy combos with which very like a precise aim. But now you just have people like spamming chains on the walls, on the ground, and it doesn't take any skill. If you know what I mean.
Nerfpool (01:10:51.824)
I agree, we need a diver that's more complex. I I I c I wouldn't have access to him, right? But I I always I never played Daredevil that much, but I assume that's what he was like. And now he's saying that, you he's a bit spammy now. I want one
imperator (01:10:55.159)
Yeah.
imperator (01:11:03.661)
You can pick him up. You can pick him up and you can get to GM. You can get to GM easily. Within a week of practicing the air level, you can get to GM easily. Just go on the back line, press E and spam right. E right click, E right-click, and deflect and then go out. That's literally what the hero has become. Like back then he was actually skilled. Like you have to be pinpoint precise with your chain. If you mess up your chain, your dive value is zero. If you hit your chain, your dive is successful. Now you just E-right click and your dive is successful either way. Like there's no there's no
Nerfpool (01:11:08.44)
Even moi?
Coach Mills (01:11:09.166)
Well
CaptainCoach (01:11:14.383)
no.
Coach Mills (01:11:16.279)
I I yeah.
imperator (01:11:32.009)
setbacks or like risk anymore to diving as they're the ball.
Coach Mills (01:11:33.677)
I mean I mean r I mean, I don't wanna completely glorify release Daredevil. That character was completely broken, like in half on release. He was completely broken in half.
imperator (01:11:41.889)
Yeah, but because his his his e if you remember his E right click was bugged. His devil's throw was bugged on the release. You remember it could go bounce on the wall and bounce back?
Coach Mills (01:11:47.683)
Didn't he didn't he also get like more sustained too? Like he got more shields and more sustain. And he had higher health too.
imperator (01:11:51.648)
Yeah, he he got more suspend more damage reduction on his F, yeah. But the the biggest problem was his devil's throw. When you threw it, it could bounce on the wall to the target and bounce back on the wall and back on the target. So it did twice the damage, the devil's throw.
Coach Mills (01:12:02.232)
Mm. so that's how he did the like the he did like the insta the insta the insta stuff. Yeah, the the flash combos. Right. My my my problem though, like with this character is not with like the average person spamming EF EF. Like my problem is with this character with people that actually reach towards the skill ceiling, which is like like y i i even in the in the case of like you have to aim the X, like I don't care if this character is harder to play, people are gonna be there. Like people are gonna just be able to do it. Like, I mean
imperator (01:12:06.169)
Yeah yeah yeah. Like that got nerfed but like they still kept the damage high of double stroke and like they nerfed the chain over and over.
Coach Mills (01:12:31.639)
You know, like anyone that's above celestial in eternity, whatever, they're gonna able to do it. They're still gonna w kick our ass with the character. Like regardless of it's if he's harder or easier. You might think he's too easy right now, but I mean I mean he's still
imperator (01:12:43.307)
Yeah, if i I mean if they make him a bit harder, like like well it's gonna be way harder if you have to aim the chain, like rather than like just spamming E right click, then you're gonna have less people like playing him properly, like more people failing their dives, you know? Like it's gonna be a bit more easier to play against and punish against like bad deadable players, 'cause now you can have bad dead of players still getting value. Give him a cap or give him a venom or give him a hulk even, let him jump in with him and like give him a bubble and like he just spam e right click and they have value.
Coach Mills (01:12:53.421)
That's fair. Yeah.
Right. I yeah.
Coach Mills (01:13:02.689)
Yeah. He just e yeah. I mean I like the objection change. I kinda wish that was even more severe. I I that d I've always thought his deflect is just ridiculous. 'Cause it it's it's not it's not a deflect in a traditional sense. It's literally just a a shield. It's like a cap shield. I mean it it blocks everything. Name more ults, beams. it doesn't matter what it is. Like I I I know that y'all come from League of Legends, but I come from Overwatch. My most played character is Genji. I played like
CaptainCoach (01:13:19.076)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:13:30.979)
four thousand, five thousand hours of G. And his deflect was very short and there are things that can still do damage to you through it. Any beam can still do damage to you through it. So like and the hitbox was really small. So you have to be very careful. Like you have to be very deliberate with it. And I just don't feel like you have to be deliberate with objection at all.
CaptainCoach (01:13:47.193)
Daredevil can deflect a giant whale coming from above him. Can deflect any.
Coach Mills (01:13:50.989)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:13:51.57)
Yeah. Let's let's get 'cause this first of all, this change on the radar senses, it's gonna very much improve improve my blindness role play, so that's great. But like he should reflect projectiles maybe back at the person direct well, I guess he kinda does that already, but like a beam or anything like that. That doesn't make sense. It's it's billy clubs, man. It's little sticks. How's that gonna deflect the whole magneto meatball? Ridiculous.
Coach Mills (01:14:05.687)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:14:10.201)
but my general takeaway for Daredevil was that he he kinda got a slap on the wrist in comparison to Black Cat. I mean Black Cat got really fucking hit and Daredevil was like, Yeah, we're good we're he's f he's fine, you know. He he's still gonna be probably best diver. I mean, we'll now he's definitely gonna be best diver because Black Cat is not gonna be best diver anymore, right?
CaptainCoach (01:14:30.891)
Light light predicted he's gonna be B
Nerfpool (01:14:34.342)
God.
Coach Mills (01:14:34.637)
No bro, no, no, no, no, no. If I if we actually talked to Light, he would be like, that's just propaganda. He fucking knows it's that's just no possible way in a in a in a meta where where cap and venom are still gonna be this strong that Daredevil's gonna be B tier. Like, are we are we trolling here? No, no, no. No, no. He's still gonna be S. He's gonna be he's gonna be top three.
imperator (01:14:50.129)
At least A. At least A. There's the fact that it didn't change his right click, h h his his his his devil's throw is not his devil's throw has not changed like minimum A plus. If you no no no on on on his own on his own A. On his own A. If you give him a diver S plus.
Nerfpool (01:14:52.944)
He's A.
Coach Mills (01:14:57.387)
It not nothing chang yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:15:02.781)
yeah yeah yeah yeah. that's fair. Okay, I I'll I'll I'll agree with that. Okay, Elsa. Let's talk about Elsa. Elsa got now the to charge her her her blocks to to dash faster or dash more on a on a faster cooldown, now that's increased. So she's gonna be able to get to max charge faster than she did before. by I don't even know what the percentage is. It's about thirty percent.
no no no, it's about fifty percent faster. what do what do y'all think about Elsebuffs?
CaptainCoach (01:15:35.095)
It's a lot.
CaptainCoach (01:15:39.77)
Tank players, just ban this hero. Just don't think about it. You don't need to listen to the changes. If you play tank, just ban this hero and then just move go on with your day. That's it. That's the change. Like this is gonna be so miserable to play. Like Elsa's already pretty good. Like I I and this is yeah, she's gonna be with in her lower cooldown form. Just like I they're gonna be playing so aggro. They're gonna like I feel like you're just gonna like almost like frontline on her. Like you could you could it's like she's she's gonna be so stupid. I hate this hero.
Coach Mills (01:15:42.185)
Yeah
Coach Mills (01:15:54.369)
Yeah, she was she is very good actually. She's ki yeah.
Coach Mills (01:16:08.343)
I mean she's not gonna be anywhere near as strong as she was before 'cause like even at max she doesn't get it every two seconds, she gets it every four seconds, like her dash. But like the problem is this character's just like her ultimate is so fucking busted. I swear this character her ultimate is so good. Like i it just if you increase her neutral like this, now she just gets to be more effective through more the game and then she just has these ults that just win the game on the spot. Like, I don't know. What it w any thoughts, Imperator on on Elsa?
imperator (01:16:37.857)
I hate her. I hate her. I hate her. I I I I don't know what I thought I thought there was gonna be a com compensation nerf for this buff. Like it's really gonna nerve something if like when they're when they're making like the most broken part of her kit like like buffing like the mobility, like no but no, there's no changes.
Coach Mills (01:16:38.531)
Nicker.
Nerfpool (01:16:39.014)
Yeah, same man.
Coach Mills (01:16:45.017)
Well yeah the the the I if they if they compensated this with like an like an old nerf like maybe an old charge nerf or something like that I would be cool with that but not this what the fuck is this?
CaptainCoach (01:16:56.873)
I'd be okay with that.
imperator (01:17:03.733)
Been saying like since the release of Elsa, like I don't know, like it just makes the most sense for me. Like the best nerf they could do for ult is if you send out Glartrox, he comes out fast, right? But the more people he takes, the slower he gets. And then when you call him back, he's still there's like the same slow. Like, why would you why would you have him the same speed at Mach 5?
CaptainCoach (01:17:15.983)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Mills (01:17:18.049)
Coach Mills (01:17:21.977)
Yeah That's that's a good point. And then it's like it doesn't matter. Well, it's weird because if you get a if you well if you get a big one Yeah. Well well well the thing is that that could in some cases be a buff though. Like to to pull slower. 'Cause you get to you get to shoot them longer.
CaptainCoach (01:17:23.129)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:17:23.324)
Is he strong?
imperator (01:17:30.177)
No no way this guy no way the Gladros grab Mega Hulk like still be the same speed. Like this doesn't make sense.
CaptainCoach (01:17:36.879)
Yeah.
imperator (01:17:41.323)
No because because because then No, because then you you remember like the old the got nerfed, like it's only three seconds max and then they get released. So like now they they won't go as far into your team.
Nerfpool (01:17:42.258)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:17:42.479)
No, I don't think so.
Coach Mills (01:17:48.405)
N yeah yeah I was say I was yeah yeah okay. I gotcha gotcha. Yeah yeah that's a point. Okay. I see, I see.
CaptainCoach (01:17:54.062)
Yeah, and and while we're on it, I mean when I'm in a Jeff mouth, he should be fat and slow. If he's got like five p picture fat Jeff.
Coach Mills (01:17:59.854)
Thank you. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:18:00.947)
A Hulk in his mouth? Yeah, I think it should slow down a little bit. I don't know why they're buffing her, man. I th she is very annoying to play against. She's very easy to get value on in the lower ranks. She punishes d divers a lot 'cause it's just so easy to do that little pirouette thing.
imperator (01:18:01.038)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:18:06.071)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:18:16.665)
She's good in the lower ranks? Is that just 'cause everybody everybody plays like brawl stuff?
Nerfpool (01:18:20.516)
Yeah. I mean I I think from I tried her out just to understand how she works so I can counter her. Two things that make her really annoying. That thing where she can I think she dashes into you and then jumps up and shoots you again. Like that's so easy to land, even for someone that's not mechanically skilled. And that's really punishing and it does a lot of damage. So if I'm a cap or god forbid a regular diver, she can really mess you up. And then the second thing is all the overshields. Like a lot of times they try to take her out and just overshields for no reason.
Coach Mills (01:18:34.489)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:18:47.459)
Yeah yeah, it's stupid, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:18:50.694)
So that's where it messes me up.
Coach Mills (01:18:51.573)
Yeah. I I still love the overshield power creep in this game where like originally it was just Bucky and people were like, fuck this hero. How how can you get overshields for doing nothing? And then they've just like they're like, you know what? Let's give it to fucking every hero. Every hero gets overshield just for existing. I can't I I I haven't even seen Cyclops does? I didn't even see that.
Nerfpool (01:19:06.268)
I saw Cyclops get it too. Yeah, if you if you watch it, he just does ding ding and then his help does this. Like, why? What are you doing? Yeah. Might as well.
Coach Mills (01:19:14.955)
Of course he gets over. Why wouldn't he get over shield? I mean if he didn't he'd be terrible because every fucking character has it. we'll talk about Cyclops at the at the end. We're we're we're we're kinda nearing the the end of it. okay, human torch. Now his his slam cooldown is going down from twenty to fifteen seconds. And the plasma body, which is the you know, his dash, that is going from ten to eight seconds. I'm gonna start with you, Nerfpool. how do you feel about these pretty I think pretty sizable torch changes? How how do you how do you feel?
Nerfpool (01:19:44.819)
Torch has not existed in the low ranks for a very long time, even when he was really good in the high ranks. Like a lot of times I would watch tier lists and everybody would be like, Torch is great, banned Torch. I wouldn't even see him in the lower ranks. One, because he's a flyer. Two, because people can't aim with well, can't aim. And three, because it's a project. It's like it sprays. So that means that people need to get close. But in in low ranks minds, that doesn't make any sense. Like I want to be snipe you sniping you from the sky. So
He hasn't existed for a long time. I don't know if this is gonna do anything. Like he's been nerfed into the ground. He's completely not existed. So he doesn't exist below Grandmaster, I think. I just I never see torches. I never I see more widows. Well, people throw a lot. But you know. Nope.
Coach Mills (01:20:19.583)
Okay, but it might it might not. It might not do anything for Lo Elo.
Coach Mills (01:20:27.821)
Yeah. Yeah, supports don't look up on unfortunately. They don't look up. I I look I I I'll give my opinion on this. I think that this is actually a pretty insane buff to Torch. twenty seconds on his slam is a long fucking time. Reducing that by five is gonna be felt. more chart like more dashes is gonna be felt. I think like
Really good torch players are gonna be absolutely cracked with this change. I don't know about everyone else though. Like I don't know if this is enough to make like like random people just start picking up torch. What do what do you you think, Imp? You think it's gonna push that? You don't think so?
Nerfpool (01:21:03.621)
No.
imperator (01:21:08.299)
Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Torch. Torch is like Torch is like too much movement. Like you need to like permanently fly around moving. The APM to play Torch is way too high. Like besides that, and the fact that he is like a projectile hero, l not projectile, but like projectile slash hit scan almost. Combining the fact that you have to like have good movement, good aim, good positioning, and like good lineups for your thing, and like it's just so complic. It's a it's a it's a really complicated hero. And like
Coach Mills (01:21:18.083)
Yeah, all right.
imperator (01:21:37.833)
old Torch was way easier to play and to pilot than like the current torch with all like the melee tech and like everything. Like I don't think he's gonna be dominant in like the the ranks from like bronze to like GM. Maybe like the OTPs are gonna utilize it slightly better, his cooldowns, but like I don't think he's gonna be meta in any at all.
CaptainCoach (01:21:58.274)
I think higher rank torches will be pretty scary. I've seen a few. 'cause they'd they'll just be able to be aggressive way more 'cause like that dash, the meteor, they a lot of them will use it just to run away because it gives you a shield and stuff. So they'll just use it to harass, play aggressive, play aggressive, and then just like you there's a lot of ways you'll be able to play torch now, I feel like, with like how much uptime you're gonna have and how quickly you're gonna get your ult. But yeah, I agree. Like I don't think in lower ranks this will really do too much, but
Coach Mills (01:22:27.297)
I I do like how they change that they're changing Torch. Like this his identity is not of just like a sit back and spam. Not really. Not with these. Like more energizer, more slams. Like he's kind of like what I imagined for Torch a long time ago. Not fully there, but like he's in the fight more. He's moving around. I've been watching Mikey play Torch and he's like he's like almost a pseudo diver. He's like in and out and in and out, you know. He's not like
CaptainCoach (01:22:35.256)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:22:54.733)
Like the the Ultron Voltron strategy of just sitting back, I just don't really think that th that's really enabled with these changes, which is I think nice. It's nice.
CaptainCoach (01:23:03.375)
Yeah, they're definitely encouraging him to go like a little different route than the other flyers, which is good. I th I I think they should just keep going in this direction and maybe even kinda make him him like less techie. 'Cause yeah, like the yeah, the movement you need just for any flyer, like it's just so much APM.
Coach Mills (01:23:19.319)
Yeah. And I think there's like a I know that there's some people that got really mad when they removed the movement tech from Torch and then like they remove the melee tech from Cap. I think that when it comes to a lot of these characters that require what Imp's talking about, which is like constant proper timing, constant good positioning, like you don't really need to have a tech for a tech's sake if the tech is just repeat the tech over and over and over again. Like we can balance the character around not doing the tech, like
If if the tech is I just need to repeat these same things to do the movement tech nonstop, like we don't need to have this movement tech in place when we can give him more movement, more slam cooldowns, and he just gets to reposition more. Like the skill expressions in the kit. We don't need the skill expression in this like thing that we just like s button spam yet the button spam this like over and over again to get like I I I I like that. I I think it's a good change. Like general like a good philosophy change. But but like I I I do know that some people like
care more about the power level, so I get that. okay, let's let's let's move on. okay, so Moon Knight. Moon Knight's primary damage goes down from twenty-five to twenty-three. The Moonblade damage, which is his alternate fire, goes down from eighty to seventy. now the damage that it's gonna do while it bounces between enemies and onks now is gonna be less when it's bouncing to multiple targets. So it's gonna go from eighty percent to seventy percent.
Pretty re like pretty big changes to Moon Knight across the board. I'm gonna go back to you, Nerfpool, because I think Moon Knight definitely is very common most likely, in in in a lot of lower ranks. What do you how do you feel about this? Do you think this is a good change overall or how do you feel?
Nerfpool (01:24:50.845)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:24:55.825)
I think it's fine. i he's not busted in the lower ranks, but he's very accessible. And if you if you wanna game the system and, you know, get a lot of damage in, you could do that. I don't know th I think this is just a modest, you know, a little bit reduction just to make him a little easier to deal with. Maybe charge his ult a lot slower. But in the lower ranks his ult usage isn't really meticulous. They they just kind of just pop it when it's available and
Coach Mills (01:25:23.787)
Just the just throw it, right? Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:25:25.383)
They just want to go to Moon and they type it in chat, because that's that's what you do. fine. All good. I think he's real easy to deal with for me, especially if I have a Moon Knight that's really cracked, I would just go hella and headshot him twice, and that's kind of what I do. But I think it's I think it's a nice little change, a little easier to deal with. Won't kill the character, but yeah, he's very popular in the lower ranks and he's honestly very fun to play. So fine, whatever.
Coach Mills (01:25:50.361)
What do you what do you what do you all guys think? Any thoughts on on Moon Knight?
CaptainCoach (01:25:53.434)
They need to go down the list of every DPS hero in the game and do these changes for every DPS hero. Just lower the damage across the board.
Nerfpool (01:25:59.615)
Kinda yeah, I actually do agree. Yeah. Why not?
CaptainCoach (01:26:04.609)
I I think these are the exactly like I more changes like this, please. I think damage in the game is obnoxious. And then that it's causing the healing to have to be too obnoxious. And then you can basically like sustain DPS heroes just through the amount of passive healing like like they were a tank if they just get pocketed. There's like a lot of things that the damage was just lower, I feel like the game would feel a lot better.
Coach Mills (01:26:09.273)
That's a good that's a good point.
Coach Mills (01:26:27.701)
I'm really happy to see here that they just nerfed his damage like in three different ways and I didn't see yeah, his ultimate is twenty percent cheaper too. Cause they've done that a lot where they're just like, yeah, let's just compensate. I'm glad that they didn't. Like make ultimates more expensive. Like they're ultimates, right? Like any strong opinions, imp?
CaptainCoach (01:26:37.903)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:26:42.356)
Yeah.
imperator (01:26:48.237)
not really. I think I think Moon Knight like Moon Knight got shown how strong he was mostly because of Dino. Because the more people play Dino, the more people play Grut, like as a counter or try to counter Dino with Grut. And the more value Moon Knight gets. Like Moon Knight gets insanely fast of Dino and other beefy tanks that are played in Dino matchups. So I think people saw how big of a problem Moon Knight's damage was when Dino started being played. So I'm not gonna say the nerf was deserved, I'm not gonna say it was undeserved. I think like
Coach Mills (01:27:17.517)
It is it is funny that he's kind of he's he's paying for dinosaurs. It's like kinda funny. Yeah, it's funny. Namor. Namor is this is a pretty small buff, but when you're hitting his primary, now his his squids are gonna be up slightly more from one per one second cooldown reduction to one point three. Not a major change, but it is gonna make Namor slightly better.
imperator (01:27:17.651)
Every
imperator (01:27:23.689)
Yeah, yeah, he's yeah, he's kinda thing for dinosaurs.
Coach Mills (01:27:46.81)
I know we just had Trust Me on the pod the other day and he was saying that Namor is like really, really bad in pro play. 'cause he doesn't really he doesn't really have like a way to get out and he doesn't he doesn't really stop dive in the way that you would think, like coordinated dive. Yeah, I don't know. I I've I've kind of always like slightly hated Namor. but I don't think that like he he's a problem or anything. Like this doesn't even make him like one of the top five best DPS in the game. but I don't think it's bad. Like
imperator (01:28:15.093)
It's a nice buff. It's a nice buff. I can give you the maths. usu now it takes six auto attacks to get a squid back. With this buff it o will only take four attacks to get a squid back. Four primaries. So instead of having to shoot someone six times, you shoot them four times and you get one squid back. So over the long run it's it's way more squids over the long run.
Coach Mills (01:28:16.398)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:28:31.137)
Okay. That's actually that that should yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:28:36.281)
So you think you'll just s what like hit tanks and kind of like
imperator (01:28:39.201)
He'll he'll become he'll become a to balloon's tower defense hero. Like he'll just like start patting off tanks and just spam squids in the back line, shoot supports, start padding tanks, shoot supports, throw squids in the line. It's gonna be more annoying to play against.
Coach Mills (01:28:42.209)
Ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:28:45.571)
Right.
CaptainCoach (01:28:50.905)
Do you think this would what do you think, Mills? Do you think this would actually like make better in pro too? 'Cause it's like a more it's just more. Is this all it is?
Coach Mills (01:28:51.032)
Interesting.
Coach Mills (01:28:59.039)
It's more, but i he just doesn't like I don't think it's a meaningful enough change to like move the needle. Especially like w the you're talking to trust me like like Poke doesn't really even is not even really seeing all that much play. Like if if Gene Gray is struggling a little bit to see play, then like Namor is definitely not. Like, you know, like 'cause the the the power gap between those characters. Now that might change with some of these changes, especially the changes to Black Cat and
CaptainCoach (01:29:13.934)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:29:26.595)
The changes to dyno, so maybe the meta will change as a whole, but I from my understanding, you know, like with Cab being so strong in pro play, Venom being so strong in pro play, like I just don't think we're moving away from a dive meta in pro play at all. And if if we're in a dive meta, like I don't I don't think Namor has a place. Like I know that that seems weird for people listening in. Like, no, we're in a dive meta. Namor definitely has a place. No, like Cap, Venom, Daredevil going three two one and jumping a backline.
give no fucks about your two squids. Like they just don't care. Like like at all. and most yeah, yeah. That was but yeah, they d and unfortunately they don't care and sometimes they just jump you. You go into your bubble and then they jump you again and you're dead. I mean like unfortunately. But he's gonna be much better for rank play, which is cool. I mean we still have the Hella Namor team up which I think is still really good. yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:29:58.328)
Mm-hmm.
CaptainCoach (01:30:02.073)
Three squids now.
Nerfpool (01:30:03.971)
Ha.
Coach Mills (01:30:25.945)
Probably probably fine.
Nerfpool (01:30:26.389)
Any change to no more is good. Any any improvement is and I also don't I I I like that the community, at least in the lower ranks, has been improving their Nemours a little bit, not just using him as an anti-dive thing. I've seen a lot more flanking no more and people that are just kind of more creative with them. I think he's an extremely well designed character because he's very punishable. Like you can remove the squids if you intend to. You can bait his escape out and then kill him. And or he can, you know, float to a really nice place and kite back. Like I think it's
Beautifully designed character, the more they give him. Like this is a slight little change, which is really nice. I think it's I think it's really good. I want to see more in the Moors. I think he's really fun to play against and I think he's really fun to play as a you know, if you play him too. So more squids.
Coach Mills (01:31:07.541)
Yeah. Cap if you wanted to make this character good against like hard dive and pro play, you'd have to make his like bubble cool down like six seconds. So like he could he like like similar to how Invis can like you there's no cycle to kill Invis. It's like the same thing. Like there's no cycle to kill Namor. Because you bait it out and he has it again. Like that's that's his that's his problem is that if you bait out his bubble, he actually it can die. He is like unfortunately the Right. Alright, this is a big one. Phoenix.
CaptainCoach (01:31:21.164)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:31:28.463)
There's a set of cooldowns you can get in. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:31:35.16)
There is w when when Captain Coach has been, you know, begging and pleading and you know sacrificing a goat to see some actual nurse to this fucking character. So this is what they did. ten the healing over time when detonating your sparks is down from ten seconds, ten ten per second to five per second, half. now the maximum damage fall off at thirty meters goes down from seventy-five percent to sixty-five percent.
CaptainCoach (01:31:40.569)
Mm-hmm.
Nerfpool (01:31:43.583)
Dude.
Coach Mills (01:32:00.75)
So the distance to KO a two hundred fifty HP enemy with two critical hits is shortened from eighteen meters to sixty meters. At maximum fall off, the single hit damage is reduced from forty five to thirty nine, and the number of hits required to KO a two hundred and fifty HP enemy is increased from five to six. so they, you know, heavily are nerfing her range, her burst damage, and her healing over time. what are your thoughts, Cap? What do you think?
CaptainCoach (01:32:27.359)
Hey, I'm all for Phoenix nerf. So the the healing over time, that's I think it lasts for four seconds. So it's a twenty in total for that. yeah. I mean they could have honestly just removed it.
Coach Mills (01:32:35.097)
Instead of forty, yeah. That's
Coach Mills (01:32:40.249)
But it but the theming, bro, the theming, the theming, it's it's Phoenix, it's the theme.
Nerfpool (01:32:42.281)
I didn't know she had it.
CaptainCoach (01:32:45.207)
Yeah. Okay, make it one one heal per second then. Like like but that's that's fine or whatever. That's a good nerf. I don't yeah, I don't know why she even has the healing. The damage fall off too, I I kinda like the damage fall off change a little bit 'cause it it is kind of more a nerf to like higher rank players, I feel like. 'Cause lower like like you're like 'cause that's been I think their issue with Phoenix, if you want to look at it, is that her you know, she has hit scan at the end of the she does
Coach Mills (01:32:56.855)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:33:12.793)
take skill to aim and I think in the lower ranks they got numbers saying that she's really, really bad. So they've been trying to f and then that's what you know why the last patch they tried to take a look at her like AoE one shot combo. I I it was weird. I I I do think this like this will be felt, but I think she'll still be pretty annoying to play against for anyone wondering. And yeah, I think they'll probably just play a little closer up. but for the most part you're I don't think you're gonna really notice too much. I I don't know.
Coach Mills (01:33:20.729)
Right. Right. Right.
CaptainCoach (01:33:42.605)
I don't think this is like a massive nerf or anything. It's decent though.
Coach Mills (01:33:45.209)
What do what do you think, Ib?
Coach Mills (01:33:50.201)
But Jean.
imperator (01:33:50.272)
Great great nerfs. I I love these nerfs. the healing nerf especially, I like that one because that one is gonna give her less survivability on off angles, meaning Phoenix is gonna be a bit more killable on off angles, which she's really annoying on anyways. And the damage fall off is Yeah, yeah. And and the damage nerf is terrific. Like that's what's don't know why it got buffed in the first place. No idea why it got buffed in the first place, but like amazing that it's back to its original state, so.
Coach Mills (01:34:04.075)
And she has to play closer on those angles too, so
Coach Mills (01:34:12.931)
Ha ha ha.
imperator (01:34:19.147)
The healing the healing earth is really nice as well. So
CaptainCoach (01:34:20.655)
Yeah, but you're I don't even think you're gonna notice the damage nerfs in in like a lot of situations. Like times you would have not died, you're still gonna not die, but it'll be annoying to have to heal through. But times where you're up close, you're still gonna like do a shitload of damage. Like I I don't know. I don't think it's it's gonna help, sure. I don't think it's like gonna do too much, though. I think you'll still ban this hero. The the the the healing is yeah, I agree with like the off off angles, but I think sh they'll still just play play main choke a lot of the time and just like poke war shoot. I don't know.
imperator (01:34:24.629)
Mm-hmm.
Nerfpool (01:34:48.361)
Yeah, this is a this is a typical net easner.
imperator (01:34:49.101)
Yeah, I mean they could have nerfed the damage more, but yeah, it's it's a
Coach Mills (01:34:51.565)
That the typical netty's there. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:34:53.181)
It's like, we'll touch her. We did something. We're done. But it's like in reality, like this is not gonna affect the lower ranks whatsoever. Like they're still gonna do whatever they're gonna do. And in the higher ranks, okay, maybe you play a little closer, do more damage. But like that doesn't change the fundamental w workflow of the character, right?
imperator (01:35:01.899)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:35:03.797)
it is
imperator (01:35:07.073)
Just just just give it three kids. Just to give it three kids instead of two. From like sixteen meters. Instead of like it's so easy to hit double credential on Phoenix, like
CaptainCoach (01:35:12.75)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:35:14.324)
I don't know.
CaptainCoach (01:35:17.079)
Mills, do you think this is a PR change? Or do you think it's actual
Coach Mills (01:35:17.579)
Yeah I I think these are real nerfs. Like the they're they're definitely gonna be felt, but it's it's like it's it's like a small, small nerf. I don't even think it removes her from S tier. Like it it might move shift her in S tier slightly, but it doesn't remove her. And I I I can understand people being really pissed off about Black Cat when they're like, Why does Black Cat get that treatment when Phoenix gets this? Like like what is this coddled child that doesn't get any like like
There have been many times in the past like five seas four seasons or whatever that Phoenix could have just gotten completely gutted and it would have been completely fine with like ninety five percent of the player base would be like, Yeah. But now she's still just here and like it doesn't I mean we'll get to Star Lord and Gambit in a bit, but I I these these changes pissed me off because they're not enough to really
Move anything. Like they don't fucking matter. They don't they don't move the needle on a on a character. This character's not A tier. This character's not B tier. This character's still fucking S tier. She's probably still a top three DPS. And she's been a top three DPS for how long?
imperator (01:36:23.373)
I mean these nerves are just like wait so like the way like I I had this in my head since like season five is like you know okay the deep the hit scans there's a certain island okay I'm not gonna say which island but you guys know what island I'm talking about okay and on that island on that island there's there's there's five
Coach Mills (01:36:36.121)
Say it! Say it!
Nerfpool (01:36:37.546)
Do tell.
Does it does it rhyme with Rammstein?
Coach Mills (01:36:43.609)
okay.
CaptainCoach (01:36:44.673)
imperator (01:36:45.035)
Maybe. On that island there's five DPSs. On that certain island there's five DPS. Silock, Star Lord, Elsa, Phoenix, and Hella. Okay? All the Sorry, Star did I say Star Lord as well? Okay. All those five DPS are broken. But which one is cycled in Meta depends on which all of them are good. But the there's always one that's like super broken, one or two that's super broken. And the one that's played the most
Coach Mills (01:36:47.225)
Staten Island No, I'm just kidding.
Coach Mills (01:36:59.841)
Yeah. Uh-huh.
CaptainCoach (01:36:59.993)
Mm-hmm.
imperator (01:37:14.623)
It's just cycle through on which one is getting nerfed. So imagine a season where Psiloq got hit with nerfs. Then we saw Phoenix being played more. Phoenix got hit with nerfs. We saw Hala being played more. Elsa got released. Elsa got went to the top of the island. Top of the f she was she was the ringleader of the island when Elsa was released. And those other four are still really good. They're still strong. But Elsa is too strong that she's being played over all of those heroes. So when Elsa gets nerfed, and Phoenix now gets nerfed.
Coach Mills (01:37:41.209)
She's the leader of the island.
imperator (01:37:43.436)
The other the other DPS go to the top of the island. So now you Starlord and Silock probably being played more. And if Silo gets buffed, then we see Silock being played more than anyone else because Silock is already strong and she got hit with buffs again. You know? That's how the high island hierarchy works. Yep. Yep. It's always those five DPS, always.
CaptainCoach (01:37:55.578)
Cut off a head of the Hydra. Two grow back. They this DPS just keep coming, man. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:37:57.819)
Yeah, too.
I do you I wonder if Netes is just afraid of going away from like you know, they could go away from those five, like heavily nerf all five, but the problem is I think they they're kind of crutching on aim as like a natural skill curve like creator, right? Like l you know, if if a character requires aim like those five do, they're not gonna be dominant in the low elos. So like that that's why I I'm not saying they should do this. I'm just saying that's like the only justification I can see that they are
you know, like because like the basically what you would have to do is you would have to make those characters bad in high elo, which means they're unplayable. Like all five of them would be unplayable in low elo if if those characters are are even remotely bad in high elo because of the you know the aim skill curve. and then like it's also kind of like you know, Pandora's box. You're like opening it, like what's what's the next if those five characters, let's just say they like completed gutadum, what are the next most five broken characters that would like pop up?
Like what would what what meta would we be? It'd be the fucking Wild West. So what is it? Name more. Like you know, like that's what I'm talking about is like now you don't have control of your game anymore. Like you don't know like like you don't know what's going on. You're you're lost. I'm I think that would be really fun.
imperator (01:39:03.305)
Namor Magic Iron Man Spider Man
CaptainCoach (01:39:04.429)
Name more Bucky Spider Man, Spider Man.
Nerfpool (01:39:07.584)
How does
Nerfpool (01:39:14.698)
And how does this affect affect console? That's what I'm wondering about it, because apparently the majority of the player base is on console. So these guys must be like they're not even touching her in low elo. Now there's even less reason to do it. So I'm wondering I'm always trying to not forget about the console players and think of how that impacts them. It's like she must be nonexistent there.
Coach Mills (01:39:26.477)
Yeah, I mean.
CaptainCoach (01:39:28.331)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:39:32.983)
Nope, she's not.
CaptainCoach (01:39:33.251)
Sometimes I wish I was a console player, just to be able to play Mr Fantastic all I want. I'd enjoy that. yeah. Maybe. Maybe one of these days, Mills, we'll do like a console duo to
Coach Mills (01:39:37.293)
Let's go. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:39:37.75)
Get stretchy, baby.
Coach Mills (01:39:45.515)
I'm fucking down. Can we be drunk while we do it? I would be that sounds great. Alright, Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:39:49.498)
That's yeah, that's a prerequisite. You guys can come too.
Coach Mills (01:39:57.458)
okay. Hey, hey, hey, stream hey, I hey according to according to the the reigning champion, stream sniping and other things are completely allowed. So my I yeah, you know, Smurfing's on the bottom tier of that list, you know what I'm saying? Like so you know it it it's all it's it's either all allowed or it's not. Okay. Okay, all right, all right.
CaptainCoach (01:40:04.911)
CaptainCoach (01:40:14.937)
For drunk is it really smurfing?
Coach Mills (01:40:21.603)
I'm gonna get a a little heated on this change because basically so what they're doing here is they are adjusting the maximum damage fall off at twenty five meters to sixty-five percent to fifty percent for Star Lord. So they're nerfing Star Lord's damage fall off from further distances. This is why I'm fucking tilted, and I I referenced this earlier where it's like they just fucking buffed Gene and Star Lord a patch ago.
They buffed these fucking characters. When they buffed these characters, they were S and A tier. You could argue that Starlock was already S tier, but you know, he was a top six DPS in the game. And then they buffed him. And now they're back to fucking nerfing him. So my thing is, why are we buffing heroes just to nerf them? They did this a lot, like a lot with Sai. Like, I don't understand why they do this, where they just like, character is really strong. Let's buff it. shit, people are mad. Okay, let's nerf it. It's like, what are we doing here? What the fuck are we like?
Can someone can someone give me some clarity here? Like, I don't understand this shit at all.
Nerfpool (01:41:20.407)
So you can buff them. So you can nerf him and then buff That's why. That's why. Come on, man, you know.
imperator (01:41:21.249)
They don't know what they're doing.
CaptainCoach (01:41:22.581)
I have a theory on it.
Coach Mills (01:41:23.177)
Okay that changes, let's go. Okay.
imperator (01:41:27.317)
Is this even a nerf though? I I on you're close range anyways with Star Lord 'cause you wanna full clip them. I don't want to send the point. This is like a placebo nerf.
CaptainCoach (01:41:32.013)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:41:32.535)
Yeah, it's it's yeah. It's just to build old charger. Wait, is this the optics nerf? Do you think this is an optics nerf's gap?
CaptainCoach (01:41:35.979)
I I can tell you what they're
CaptainCoach (01:41:42.019)
a little bit. It well they're they're trying to I think you saw it with with Dino, you saw it with a couple different heroes, I think Phoenix a little bit, where they're trying to push certain characters into like a more niche, like specific playstyle so it's easier to balance them, is what I think they're doing. So they're in they they're telling Star Lords like, Hey, don't play back, play closer up.
So they can get like better data and and act like if if they make characters gameplay loop like more obvious and and like you know you i they're to be able to actually like balance around it better.
Coach Mills (01:42:13.745)
I see. So d don't don't give them like we're not giving people complete freedom of choice. We're saying like this is the optimum way to play the character, play the character this way, type thing. Is what you're saying? Kind of? and they're encouraging it with balance.
CaptainCoach (01:42:25.439)
Yeah, well they're they're also Yeah, yeah. I mean obviously Star Lord is still gonna be like super overpowered. Like he's still gonna be super broken, but I'm sure like somewhere on their team they're they've they're they're they've tracked situations or whatever where Star Lord's just able to sit back, shoot, and still actually be pretty effective. So if they push him towards like a certain playstyle, make him actually have to be aggressive to make plays and and get kills, like there there must be some damage threshold they're looking at.
Coach Mills (01:42:52.235)
It it does it does take away like his blade bot play style a little bit, like just a little bit. Or or like his old bot, yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:42:56.141)
Yeah. Well he doesn't have that option now. And and and and their thought more or less, I think, is okay, now the Starload doesn't have that option, let's see how he does. Like let's see how good he is. And it he's it's gonna still be pretty good. But I think that's the idea behind it, if to answer your gripe with buff nerf, buff nerf. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:43:10.624)
Yeah Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:43:16.269)
Right. I mean they st they still didn't like like the the Star Lord Gambit combo is still like disgustingly broken and it's gonna keep being disgustedly broken. Like I don't really understand why they I I like I just don't understand any like I don't understand any of this. I I I we run into this every time we look at the passion list. I just don't understand what they're thinking. Yeah, yeah, I don't
CaptainCoach (01:43:26.961)
yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:43:36.697)
Frustrating. He's still be he's he's still like S plus in my opinion. Like I don't think this really does much. But
Coach Mills (01:43:42.7)
Yeah. okay, let's let's talk about some strategists real quick. so okay, so first this is a simple one we can get through quickly. Adam, his cosmic cluster, when it hits enemies, you're gonna reduce the cooldown on his E, his his little heal. from point four eight seconds to point six seconds. It's a pretty small buff, but it is noticeable. What do you what do you think, imp? Any any anything? you do?
Nerfpool (01:43:47.553)
Yo.
imperator (01:44:08.449)
I mean I I play with I play with only legs on my MRC team, so yeah. This they just keep buffing Adam. Like the last buff as well was like for his right click to give his healing charge. They might as well just like give make it so like you cast your right click, if it hits someone, you reset your heal. Because like this is like going down that path, okay? Like you you're gonna send Adam to a flank, this guy's gonna be literally immortal. This guy's literally gonna be immortal.
Coach Mills (01:44:11.426)
you do? Wait, no, I watched that shit. I watched a little bit of that shit. man, he's at yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:44:11.567)
Mm-hmm.
CaptainCoach (01:44:27.001)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:44:27.648)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:44:32.687)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:44:32.833)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
imperator (01:44:34.217)
Send Adam with whatever flanker you have, they're gonna be immortal. If he just has his has his right click ready.
CaptainCoach (01:44:38.571)
I yeah, I mean I was watching Mike the other day who spawn camping people and wanna bubble an at him, first week support player. I'm like, what are we doing? Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:44:41.529)
No, he he's actually the most broken one v wonner in the game because if if he has soulbond, he can't die. It's also kind of funny how like there's like these there's like a group of characters that are like they're all fighting for like best in slot triple support character. and it's like when one's bad, another one's good. It's like, you know, it's Ultra on this this patch, no, now it's Adam. no, now it's Loki, this now it's you know, it's always just like I mean w yeah.
Nerfpool (01:44:47.627)
Yes.
CaptainCoach (01:45:09.935)
And that's gotta be their reasoning for buffing him because nothing else makes sense. Nothing else like because he's all the healers are S tier, like I swear, like they're all so good, but it just doesn't seem that way because you have to have like a certain number of them on your team. You can't just have all healers, but you definitely need them. And I think their reasoning for Adam is like he gets picked in incorrect comps so frequently that they're probably just using the wrong data to justify buffing him.
Coach Mills (01:45:12.311)
Yeah.
imperator (01:45:15.093)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:45:31.609)
That's actually a great point that like his win rate is probably fucking massive in triple support. Like it's probably insane. But like every fucking random atom that I get on my team is just a DPS player LARPing. Like that's like they're they're not they did they're just the yeah. I like I swear it's it's it's like Jesus. okay. all right, cloak and dagger.
CaptainCoach (01:45:41.416)
it's probably obnoxious.
CaptainCoach (01:45:48.463)
I hate I hate Adams so much. I hate them. I dude I I don't think there's a player I dislike more than Adams.
Nerfpool (01:45:48.77)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:46:01.665)
So, TLDR of the changes to Cloak and Dagger. If you hit someone with your primary and you hit them directly, it does this exact same thing as before, but the AoE of your primary, because yes, there is AoE on your primary heal, it does more to people nearby. So that's the first part of the change. And I think that lowers the skill floor of this character, but also just buffs the character straight up, more heals. and then there's also a heal like a boot boost ratio of the healing from the wall the wall.
From fi fifteen percent to twenty percent. I knew they were gonna fucking buff this character. Like dad like they th there's no way that they yeah, they were definitely gonna buff this fucking character. what do you think, Nerfpool? How do you feel about Cloak and Dagger being ev even stronger and easier to play?
CaptainCoach (01:46:36.911)
It's pretty obvious. Yeah. It's pretty obvious.
Nerfpool (01:46:43.98)
Sick of her. She's she is the character the support in lower Elo. And it's I just gotta say this with my whole chest. It's not you against the world. It's the world against you, bitch. I hate this character. I'm so I'm so PTSD'd from just me trying to do anything. It's us against the world. I hate this character. Why would you reduce the skill ceiling on a frickin' auto aim? It's just get rid of her. Give Adam more stuff.
Coach Mills (01:46:52.865)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:46:58.067)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:46:59.724)
Ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:47:11.455)
Yeah, they they actually did it. Like, why did they do that? They they literally made this easy character easier, by the way. Like that's what they did.
Nerfpool (01:47:14.552)
What are you doing? No.
CaptainCoach (01:47:16.127)
Mm.
Nerfpool (01:47:18.828)
Yeah, great. Awesome. Hey, maybe maybe give you know, I don't know, I don't like this. Just nerfer and changer. I'm just sick of the same team comp there. No, no, in the beginning of the of the game, people were complaining a lot about Luna Loki and seeing the same stuff all over again. That's cloak and dagger in Lower Elo. I wanna see more variety in the supports. C Cap is completely right. They're all broken, but Lower Elo doesn't know how to use that to their advantage. And I wanna see more variety there, like use more of them.
Enough of this one.
Coach Mills (01:47:50.745)
What do you think imp? What do you think about Cloak and Dagger genderbuff? Gunhurt?
imperator (01:47:52.439)
Gun her down. Stab her and gun her down.
Nerfpool (01:47:56.385)
Hell yeah.
imperator (01:47:58.198)
Like death death death to Cloak. Like I I this this hero doesn't deserve to be meta anymore. Like I don't know about it making her easier to play as well. Like she's already like brain dead, headless chicken piloted. Like my like could literally like I could Adam res my grandma, she could pilot cloak within two days. This this hero doesn't deserve any meta anymore. Like we've had four seasons of cloak. We've had four seasons of cloak. I don't want another cloak season.
Coach Mills (01:48:00.152)
That the cloak.
Nerfpool (01:48:01.28)
And dagger.
Coach Mills (01:48:08.577)
Okay.
Coach Mills (01:48:16.097)
Alright. I'm bringing on Kaji. Where's Kaji at? I need him. I need I need Kaji. No like Yeah, what I a hundred percent agree. Like I wish that Netti's agreed. Like if a character is good for too long, make them bad. Like it's fine. Like a character doesn't need to be meta for fucking the entire life cycle of a game. I
CaptainCoach (01:48:26.937)
She's gotta be one of their most popular characters.
CaptainCoach (01:48:39.843)
I mean, I have a theory. Yeah, yeah. Listen, this is a great time.
imperator (01:48:41.441)
She sells the most skins, bro. She sells the most skins. What can we do? What can we do?
Coach Mills (01:48:43.033)
Hey, hey, hey, hey. There's there's bikini skins of of Cloak and Dagger coming out, by the way. There are. Bikini skids. Yeah. And Dar Daredevil was also getting skids, by the way.
Nerfpool (01:48:43.127)
That's that's exactly what it is. You saw the guner stuff.
imperator (01:48:50.197)
Yes, yes, they need to buff any every character gets a Bo they have it they have I'm telling you, they have a highly advanced Chinese psychological team studying the skin saying, Okay, this skin is gonna make so much fucking money. Jiong buff this hero so vi the people are gonna buy the skins and then when people bought the skins, nerfed the hero the season after. It's so fucking annoying.
CaptainCoach (01:48:52.153)
No guys
This is actually something
Coach Mills (01:49:08.579)
Yeah, well y
Coach Mills (01:49:12.887)
All I'm say So so what you're saying is in nine point Like th this this this will tell me if they do or don't. I if if
Nerfpool (01:49:14.657)
Make them goonier, make sure they bend over in really interesting ways.
imperator (01:49:18.773)
No nine but they're close to getting nerfed. Any any big skins that are coming out and heroes are getting buffed now, next season they gotta get nerfed.
Coach Mills (01:49:25.027)
Well I'm I I think if in nine point they have hella buffs, I'll I'll I'll believe it. I'll believe it 'cause they're they're coming out with a hello bikini skin. If if if in nine point they have hella buffs, I'll be like I'll be like, all right, y'all might be right.
imperator (01:49:34.497)
They yeah, nine but those gonna have elabors. It is gonna have elabors, I guarantee you.
CaptainCoach (01:49:38.445)
This is a a theory l that I've been actively working on. I'm I'm so glad we're talking about it right now because I was going to unveil it today. This whole phenomenon you described, Imp, it's called goon creep. Okay. We for it's not power creep, it's goon creep. Cloak and dagger gets buffed because of skins. And and it it's been it's real, it's been and it's been happening since the start, and it's premeditated. And until we do something about it and and stand up.
Coach Mills (01:49:51.619)
Coon creep Coon Creep
Nerfpool (01:49:52.889)
Goon creep I picked the wrong name.
CaptainCoach (01:50:05.743)
'Cause obviously cloak and dagger's popular says most skins. You the nail on the head. we're gonna keep experiencing Goon Creep like this. Getting heroes getting
imperator (01:50:10.753)
We we can't, we can't, we can't kill Gooners. They came from Overwatch, they they were shunned out of the Overwatch community, they came to rivals and they've multiplied and multiplied and we have too much Gooners. We have more goon we have more Gooner infested godless people than than than normal people in the in in this community. So we're every time I remember it so fucking clearly. Invisible woman. She was meta and then her fucking wedding skin with fantastic release. She got another buff. She got another buff for no reason because of her wedding skin released.
Coach Mills (01:50:13.965)
Yeah. It's
Coach Mills (01:50:28.707)
Hey hey.
imperator (01:50:38.857)
Everyone bought that fucking wedding skin and the next season she got nerfed. It just it's so annoying.
Coach Mills (01:50:40.153)
Hey here here's here's here's the fucking strat, guys. You just need to main hot fucking characters. That's it. If you just main those characters, you'll always play the best characters in the game. That's it. Yeah, well yeah. Welcome to D tier, buddy. Get fucked. I'm right there with you. We're both playing the
Nerfpool (01:50:41.657)
But it's getting to it's getting it's
Nerfpool (01:50:54.073)
That's true.
CaptainCoach (01:50:54.207)
Not ready to take that leap yet.
CaptainCoach (01:50:59.555)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:50:59.683)
But it's arrivals is getting to a point where I feel embarrassed of what's on my screen. Like sometimes people walk in and I'm like, No, no, no, I'm not playing some weird game. It's okay. That that's a new thing. That wasn't there before. It's just getting a little creepy.
Coach Mills (01:51:09.454)
Never never be in never be in a never be embarrassed, bro. Never be embarrassed.
CaptainCoach (01:51:12.865)
I can't wait to tell my real life friends that I play a character with big breasts to get high rank in a video game. Can't wait.
Coach Mills (01:51:17.623)
That's it. That's it. Tell Tell There it is. Yeah. okay. So we gotta talk about Deadpool Strategist. So his bouncing bobblehead, which is this like little spinny top that heals. the spell field dam the spellfield healing got upped from forty second to fifty second for the standard. Upgraded is from fifty to fifty five. it's a pretty small buff to a character, but I do think that Sutpool ha is actually good already. what do you think?
CaptainCoach (01:51:21.465)
Hulk has big breasts actually, technically. Pecks. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:51:23.065)
That's true. He's packing.
Coach Mills (01:51:47.523)
about this character. Seems kinda weird. Weird time to buff this character, but
CaptainCoach (01:51:48.611)
Doesn't need this.
CaptainCoach (01:51:53.123)
Doesn't need it.
А
Coach Mills (01:51:57.239)
What's what's up, it go on?
imperator (01:51:59.6)
wait I'm gonna close finish.
CaptainCoach (01:52:01.311)
yeah, I just the fact that this hero doesn't have a like a support alt support alt or support y support alt is he's always gonna like have bad win rate and he's always gonna be super OP in the higher ranks. And if they buff him like that, like I I think people are still figuring him out too. Like I think he's like kind of complex and hard. So I I just I just don't think he needs this. But yeah, go ahead and
imperator (01:52:19.313)
we have Necros actually plays support pool in our MRC team. We have played against Ignite teams from EU, some Ignite teams, and we have played against all MRC teams in EU. We haven't lost a single block. That's that's what I'm gonna say. We haven't lost a single block with support pool, triple support or even double support sometimes. This hero is the most broken support in the game. You enable everything, you have ult, you can have ult in as few as two, three seconds.
CaptainCoach (01:52:35.107)
There you go.
Coach Mills (01:52:35.5)
Yeah.
imperator (01:52:49.301)
You can have your ult use it and then hold your jackpot until seven seconds later and then boom have double or triple the healing. You have so much momentum you can get. I don't know why it's not being played as much. Like I I think the pros are like slow. Even though pros are supposed to like the best people at the game, I think they're slow when it comes to like adapting to meta. because this hero is insane. And the fact that they're buffing in in gun form, like the spell field and like the healing, any healing buff means Deadpool's gonna get levels faster, healer pool.
Coach Mills (01:53:02.615)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:53:03.711)
It
imperator (01:53:18.391)
Helipo's gonna get his he's his he's gonna get XP, he's gonna get more XP, he's gonna get upgrades faster, he's gonna be able to enable fights way faster, way quicker. So the fact that his hero got buffed after already being in a very strong position is crazy to me.
CaptainCoach (01:53:29.879)
Yeah. I'm glad you're saying this.
Coach Mills (01:53:30.841)
He has he has so much fucking damage. Like it's actually crazy. It the thing is, strategist pool gets to have none of the downsides that a pool would normally have, which is like the the the downside of like tank pool and especially D PS pool is like there's this big amount of downtime where you're underpowered early in the game. Because healing is just so much value early in the game and it helps you level in a passive way. You don't have to take risks. You're just you just become cracked so fast. Like like I I don't know. It's it it's
Yeah, I mean I don't I don't understand the buffs. Like I don't I don't just get it.
CaptainCoach (01:54:02.147)
How much does Necros how much is he is in is he in sword form like diving versus kinda like play him further back? Is it just when he has his cooldowns basically?
imperator (01:54:11.659)
We we're we we we just wait. We he has his he has his ult ready, like either him or Jimbo, like we he we we just go in. Like we pop our ult, we start moving forward, like when you pop the ult you can start moving forward. Cause then you're like not gonna take enough damage to die because the your supports healing and the healer pool like base healing from the ult is gonna be enough to like push forward. And then when like the
CaptainCoach (01:54:30.925)
You don't spread those out and do like one then the other and then like do like a longer fight, or is it just all at once just like full commit?
imperator (01:54:37.325)
What what do you mean? The the supports or
CaptainCoach (01:54:38.905)
Doesn't he have two he Deadpool has two heel pool has two AOE heals, right? Or am I am I
imperator (01:54:43.463)
you you can use the whatever I'm talking about I'm talking about the base ult. Like you can move forward with this base ult and it it it'll heal you. And then you can move forward. they can either react with cooldowns or react with another support ult, and we can hold that with other cooldowns, and then three, four seconds after their support ult, we can use our jackpot. And then we have eight seconds of like Luna ult healing levels. Like the the the healer pole, like we
CaptainCoach (01:55:05.358)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:55:05.933)
Yeah, and then and then he'll still have all of his cooldowns right afterwards too. Like he'll have his E and then yeah.
imperator (01:55:09.043)
Yeah, and we have still all coins right after. We have more swords and E up again. Like it's just so much healing, so much output, so much stalling. Like you can really like outplay the enemy backline with this. Like you have in it's an insane dive hero. It's the best hero to play with dive. Like you have you enable it so good. Damage boost, you damage boost you as well. Like I just forgot to mention that as well.
Nerfpool (01:55:10.157)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:55:15.684)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:55:23.713)
Yeah. No, I'm I'm glad you're saying this. This this info needs to get out. Like I'm telling you, this hero's broken.
Coach Mills (01:55:28.845)
Yeah, yeah yeah. Ner nerf pool, you need to pick up you need to pick up subpool 'cause it like it matches you, you know y your your brand, you know? It's perfect.
Nerfpool (01:55:30.659)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:55:36.939)
I think so. I thought about it too. And but it's I yeah, I think there's so many other characters that could have gotten a nerf for I don't know why they spent any dev power on making this change. Like I don't know what the point is. Like ev even low rank has that figured out for the most part. You know what I mean? Okay, maybe they can't aim and sometimes it's the healing is a little inconsistent, but it's okay. I don't get it.
Coach Mills (01:55:54.232)
Yeah I don't understand the buff, but okay. So we have three more changes to really quickly talk about. So Okay, we gotta talk about Gambit. So they his ultimate now the bonus damage multiplier goes down from twenty five to twenty percent. and the movement goes down from forty percent to thirty percent. I'm gonna I'm gonna go first here. this doesn't fucking make this character not
Just pick or ban. Like this character is still pick or ban. It doesn't really matter what they do to these numbers. They're always gonna be pick or ban because the character still gives you movement speed, gives you jump, gives you extra ult charge, cleanses, heals, i increases damage still, still has speed boost thirty percent. Like this care this it's it's fucking ridiculous that we've gotten this long and this character just constantly gets fucking tickled by the devs. Like he doesn't get any like real changes. And I mean
This is once again, he's still gonna be perma banned. It's not gonna change anything.
CaptainCoach (01:56:53.231)
And the
CaptainCoach (01:56:56.717)
And the damage amp one was another one that we were talking about that got reverted. It was twenty, then it got buffed to twenty five when they I forget what else they did and then that now they're putting it back down.
Coach Mills (01:57:05.049)
Yeah, 'cause they compensated this character that needed zero compensation. let's fucking kill. W
CaptainCoach (01:57:12.599)
Yeah. It's not enough. It it sh everything should just go down to like ten percent and then keep one thing high, like the movement speed maybe. I think would be like one that'd be cool. That I I like to jump too. Some people don't like the jump. I th I I think things like that are good, but
Coach Mills (01:57:26.101)
yeah. I'm I'm gonna keep re repeating the same idea that we brought up like, you know, a million podcasts ago, which is just having two sides, two modes, defensive and offensive. It would make this character it increases the skill expression, it would make this character not broken, because the broken part is the fact that it does everything. It's an ultimate that is good at any stage of the game, whether you're behind, you're you're behind almost dead in a Groot ult. Okay, it's still good to use. Or you're on the front foot, you're
Closing on the enemy team, you want to chase them down and kill them, it's good there too. Like it's literally always good whether you're about to lose, about to win, it can be comboed with a bazillion different characters, like like yeah. What what do you think, Imp? What what's your what's your thoughts on on on these changes?
imperator (01:58:09.953)
Gambit It's always gonna be meta. I I've given up. I since since two seasons ago, I've given up. Cause this guy this this this hero will never get nerfed properly. Every every time he's a slap on the wrist or a placebo nerf, he's never gonna nerf properly. You wanna nerf him properly? Since the star just and cut his ult in half. Make his ult cost like two thousand more, cut the movement speed in half, remove the damage amplifier, because the move having movement speed already is insanely disgusting. And being able to jump higher.
Coach Mills (01:58:21.305)
Yeah.
imperator (01:58:39.563)
They just don't know what to target. They're just scared. They're just scared of having a gambit be shit for one season. God forbid gambit be shit for one season. Because then people won't buy the rogue gambit matching skins. the E-daters won't be able to buy the rogue matching Gambit skins. They can't release they can't release the half naked hooded gambit skins with the rogue matching emotes and make a million dollars off a gambit. They can't unnerf Gambit. Cause cause people can't pay rogue.
Coach Mills (01:58:44.281)
Why?
CaptainCoach (01:58:50.223)
It's good creep. Good creep.
Coach Mills (01:58:50.561)
No no
Nerfpool (01:58:51.31)
There you go. I know it was coming. Yep. Goon creep.
Coach Mills (01:58:57.825)
CaptainCoach (01:59:03.161)
That's why Gambit's been OP is cause of Gooners.
Coach Mills (01:59:06.155)
Yeah, but ha my my my No So I'm I'm I'm coming around to y'all's goo the Guna Creep idea, but like I I I honestly think that this is still against No but but this is this is against the best interest though. No one can fucking play the character. Why am I gonna buy a gambit skin if I can never play the fucking character because he's banned every goddamn game? Like my g like like like l like
imperator (01:59:07.489)
People can't play fucking rogue. They're too ta they're too handless to play rogue, so they all have to rely on Gambit being the skin seller.
Nerfpool (01:59:07.854)
The V line.
CaptainCoach (01:59:10.319)
That's true. That makes sense.
CaptainCoach (01:59:18.403)
Beyond creep.
imperator (01:59:19.863)
What do you mean idea? The truth.
Nerfpool (01:59:21.37)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:59:21.549)
It is the truth.
Nerfpool (01:59:28.954)
Cause he's hot, man.
imperator (01:59:31.149)
'Cause they look at game data and win rate. They look at the game data and win rate. They see his
CaptainCoach (01:59:31.343)
Tanning Chate Channing Tatum.
Coach Mills (01:59:33.633)
Make him shit! Make him shit so I can run down as DPS Gambit in my games. I can't even do that. I can't do anything on this character.
Nerfpool (01:59:33.838)
Yeah.
imperator (01:59:40.056)
But they don't care about it. They care about the win rate and how much like how how hard he's stomping games. They cannot see that. They have they have they have a shit set of data because he's permanently banned. So they ca that's why they they they don't need they they're putting slab of the wrist nerves. If Gambit was actually played and they see how high his win rate actually is, then people will they'll be like, let's ban him hard. But they don't look at that. They don't look they don't look at the ban rate and how people like hate playing against it.
CaptainCoach (01:59:50.905)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:00:00.975)
They got some higher up telling them that there's a new Gambit movie coming out in like a year or two with Channy Tat Channy Tatum, Coach Mills. Yeah, they're
Coach Mills (02:00:01.572)
But like last
Coach Mills (02:00:07.385)
no. My i the characters also my god, no, no what the what? Calm down, calm down.
Nerfpool (02:00:09.243)
I think it's in his contract.
imperator (02:00:10.155)
Yep. No no no no no. Gambit, fucking Brad Pitt as Gambit and Bonnie fucking blue as rogue. They yes. And sell the fucking Bonnie Blue fucking rogue skin. Sell the Bonnie Blue Rogue skin ASAP.
CaptainCoach (02:00:18.173)
CaptainCoach (02:00:24.185)
Go, go, go, go.
Coach Mills (02:00:28.193)
I I I actually I I I snuck into a high ELO lobby at some point last season. I think so it trust me was actually I I I looked back at this catch coach. I didn't realize it at the time. Trust me, it was in my lobby. like I snuck into a high ELO like last season at some point, and I just like I ended up filling as Gambit because it was a gambit lobby. The way that you had to play Gambit, like optimized Gambit, is boring as fuck. You can't take any risk. You can't be aggressive, you can't play make. Your entire thing is you just stay alive and ult. You're just a you're just an old bot.
If you go and take a risk and you die, you threw the game. So you so so no. Like they like I made one aggressive play, I got a trade, I died they bit they bitched to They're What the fuck are you doing though? Just stay in the back, play passive, conserve your cards, use them only when you're in threat of death and ult. That's your entire fucking purpose. So like they're limiting the design capabilities of this character by refusing to fucking address the ultimate of this character because he's literally just an old bot. That's literally his purpose. but yeah.
imperator (02:00:58.421)
Who
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:01:25.185)
Yeah, I agree with you, but the hand I use for my mouse, I use it to win games, so it's a winning hand.
Nerfpool (02:01:34.883)
Mm.
Coach Mills (02:01:34.893)
Wait, what the fuck? Okay.
CaptainCoach (02:01:35.695)
I'm
imperator (02:01:36.663)
Gambit gambit was like that in the past though. You could go on off angles, you could go flank as Gambit because you had damage. They took away They took away his damage and they buffed his healing. They made him a heal bolt. They made him a heal bolt. You guys remember you guys remember like the the the the the necro short when Gambit first came out, the crazy combo of one shooting like dash EF dash E F. They took away all of that to give him more healing and less damage.
CaptainCoach (02:01:45.327)
I'm just trolling eyes.
Coach Mills (02:01:45.593)
Okay.
imperator (02:02:04.801)
They made him into a heal bolt. He was fun to play at the start, and then they just made him into a heal bolt. If they just cut his ult in half since the start, nerfed his healing, kept his damage the same, he would have been he would have been a fun mix support to play. But no we have a boring ass, easy to play, front to back ult bolt farming support.
Nerfpool (02:02:21.669)
This goes back to what you were you it goes back to what you were talking about Black Cat where you design a character with flexibility in mind and then you narrow him down a specific path. And this same thing with Gambit. You design him with certain flexibility in mind and cooldowns and whatever, and you narrow him down to a specific place. And also, this specific thing is another hand wavy again, Neti's, we did a thing, but we're gonna revert like this like three that I caught in this patch specifically, which is kind of getting a little bit like come on, you guys.
CaptainCoach (02:02:21.721)
Shannon Tatum, Coach Mills.
Coach Mills (02:02:24.413)
What were we saying different?
Nerfpool (02:02:50.551)
Make some impact with it.
CaptainCoach (02:02:53.827)
What do you think it is though? Like the PR it do you think it's PR changes nerf? Yeah.
Nerfpool (02:02:56.643)
Yes. Yeah. So yeah. No, a hundred percent. No, it's it first of all, well, two things. It's eight point five, it's not nine that typically do the bigger things in the you know, when it's a brand, brand new season. But I think a lot of this is we gotta we gotta do something. We gotta nerf Phoenix, we gotta do 'cause the streamers have been complaining the same way that they talked about other stuff in a game. So yeah, I think this one specifically, I think just net he's going, give him a little something, and that's it.
CaptainCoach (02:03:15.938)
Right.
CaptainCoach (02:03:23.429)
yeah, and you've been in that Sioux for a while. You you you feeling all right? You need a
Coach Mills (02:03:26.059)
Yeah yeah, you you did alright?
Nerfpool (02:03:27.223)
I feel a little woozy, but you know, I I took the idea. I mean, I'm good. I'm all right. I'm feeling real nice actually, it's getting
Coach Mills (02:03:30.421)
Yeah. We'll have the the first rivals podcast where someone passes the fuck out on
CaptainCoach (02:03:31.807)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (02:03:37.157)
Yeah. Yeah, gotta get those ratings, boy.
Coach Mills (02:03:38.026)
so we have two more characters to talk about and then we'll we'll speed through some of the other talking points real quick. But yeah, let's talk about Ultron. So they're just nerfing Ultron straight up. They were they're nerfing his the drone distance to attach is from thirty five meters down to thirty. The imperative firewall cooldown, which is the activate for the all the all the things that it gives you speed boost, shields, extra bits of damage, it's up to twelve seconds instead of ten.
And then the cost of the ultimate goes from four thousand to forty three hundred. Yeah. Well what do what do you think about the the Ultron changes? Nerf Pool, I'm guessing you don't see a ton of Ultron in really?
Nerfpool (02:04:16.942)
More than you would think, actually. I I'm all I was also surprised. And that's probably because his healing is just the thing that you don't have to worry about. And then you can try it. Yep. So the only thing that's been I'd say problematic has been the ult comes out pretty quick and people don't shoot him. And he's very killable in his ult, but people don't focus him. So that's been my that's been my gripe specifically.
CaptainCoach (02:04:25.069)
He's a popular character too. He's popular. Well.
Coach Mills (02:04:25.122)
Nah.
Okay, mocha.
Nerfpool (02:04:42.414)
I don't know what this is gonna do to him specifically here, but I I do appreciate the alt increase. I think that's gonna make my life a lot easier. But other than that, I think but he's more he's more played in low early than you than you would think. A lot of times he's played in comps than he shouldn't be, but you know, he's there.
Coach Mills (02:05:00.115)
okay, what about you, Imp? How do you feel about it? How do you feel how do you feel about the the Ultron Shapes?
imperator (02:05:03.541)
Amazing. Ultron is one of the annoying protects we see in MRC and sometimes ignite scrims. They would just protect Ultron and protect Mantis, run Ultron Mantis with any other third support that's really annoying to play against. Really boring front to back slope, so I'm happy to see any Ultron or Mantis nerfs. Honestly, like they're great. Like as long as the hero gets picked less, works less, I'm fine with it.
CaptainCoach (02:05:29.645)
Yeah, I'm kinda in the same boat. And and they re there's another one where they reverted a change. Say w thirty to thirty five, then back down to thirty.
Coach Mills (02:05:35.117)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just yeah. yeah, yeah, they're in nine point they're gonna buff this character again, you know you know. you know like Yeah, that he he
imperator (02:05:37.527)
It's so boring, bro.
CaptainCoach (02:05:39.671)
So you have to be a little closer.
imperator (02:05:42.957)
No, release a swimsuit. Release a swimsuit Ultron skin.
Nerfpool (02:05:43.132)
Can't give gooner skins though. I'm gonna put bikini on man. I know it.
CaptainCoach (02:05:43.905)
The Ultron wedding skin.
CaptainCoach (02:05:48.867)
Make it Ultron.
imperator (02:05:50.977)
Give him a bulge, let him leak some oil from his chest and like, yeah. yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:05:53.647)
Is AI says says the the most sensual things trained trained in all the human behavior.
Coach Mills (02:05:54.794)
shit.
Nerfpool (02:05:57.372)
Squirtomatic. Very good.
imperator (02:06:00.141)
Yep. And watch the buffs and skin sales go up.
Coach Mills (02:06:02.649)
Fucking yeah, chucking god. yeah.
Nerfpool (02:06:09.284)
I am ready for a Robo Bulge. It will happen.
imperator (02:06:12.13)
Yep.
Coach Mills (02:06:14.521)
Alright, last up s white fox ultimate or white fox now the the charm invincibility spell field radius did get reduced from point eight to point six. It's still fucking easy as hell to hit, but they did nerf it.
imperator (02:06:15.856)
don't even show this one, though it'll piss me off.
Nerfpool (02:06:18.812)
She got a goo in her skin too, by the way. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:06:19.458)
yeah, yeah.
imperator (02:06:21.419)
Get this bitch off the screen, like I like aww.
imperator (02:06:36.855)
Can you scroll down? There's more there's more nerfs, right? Can you scroll down? shit, there's nothing else.
CaptainCoach (02:06:37.721)
I don't know if you saw
Coach Mills (02:06:39.233)
Nope, nope, no, no, no, no, no. The character is still busted. I I'm I'm telling you, I'm telling you, okay, this is this is the meta. For those of you who don't know the meta, ch th those of you who are listening, want to know the meta. This is the fucking meta. You ban Gambit and you play White Fox Luna every fucking game. It's a a broken ass backline. It can't be Dove. It wins a two V one against any character in the fucking game. that's it. That's all I got for you.
Nerfpool (02:06:40.22)
No
CaptainCoach (02:06:40.589)
But look at look what I'm doing, Mills. what am I doing?
imperator (02:06:44.823)
Ha ha
CaptainCoach (02:06:47.961)
Slap on the wrist.
CaptainCoach (02:07:01.657)
Gunnar Creek, Coach Mills. Gooner Creek.
Nerfpool (02:07:03.12)
Yep. Yep.
imperator (02:07:03.487)
I mean White Fox is permanently played against us in in scrims. We have to either ban White Fox or Luna because those two cannot exist in the same game. That's how disgusting Whitefix White Fox and her anchor is. The she needs to get legit kneecapped. The hero is the the the I don't they buffed her when she didn't need buffs, and then when they nerf her, they nerf nothing. 0.8 to 0.6. Now the now the p now the fucking paraplegic silver eye white fox player cannot hit his
Coach Mills (02:07:13.261)
No, they can't
Coach Mills (02:07:25.977)
Yeah.
imperator (02:07:32.469)
charms anymore when he's aiming to fucking Yao Ming. Wow what a what a great nerf. What a what a great fucking nerf. No, I this is great. She's gonna be so terrible now.
CaptainCoach (02:07:40.974)
We really do need to get we really do need to get some support players on top. I mean I got I got nothing to add to that. That was perfect.
Coach Mills (02:07:44.395)
Yeah, there's no way
Nerfpool (02:07:45.046)
This is awful. And I'm trying to be a support nive and I'm like, Yep, fuck
Coach Mills (02:07:51.256)
Okay, okay, that was just cinema.
Nerfpool (02:07:53.735)
No, but I actually have a lot of gripes.
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new Clearcoms episode. The season 8.5 passion has just dropped, so we're really excited to talk about it. And today we're actually joined by two special guests. First guest, Nerfpool. you know, famous yapper and known content creator. thank you for coming on, Nerf Pool. And yeah.
Nerfpool (00:21.544)
Thank you for having me.
CaptainCoach (00:22.456)
I think I've seen some of his movies.
Nerfpool (00:25.0)
let's not talk about that. That's legal reasons. Ryan Reynolds is a very nice guy, allegedly.
Coach Mills (00:31.489)
And then for our second guest, for the first time on the pod, we're bringing known rage baiter and and and and streamer, content creator, Imperator. What's up, man? How you doing?
imperator (00:43.82)
What's up, what's up, how you guys doing? Glad to glad to be here for the first time.
CaptainCoach (00:46.542)
yeah, they're
Coach Mills (00:47.897)
Yeah, yeah, no. We w we we're really excited to have you on the pod. I see a lot of your takes on on X and I I love the rage baiting. I love I just love all the interaction. It's it's it's very entertaining. So it's it's really good stuff.
CaptainCoach (00:59.78)
You wanna you w you wanna know something funny? So normally I make it a point to research both of our guests before if I don't know who they are. And I didn't I hadn't like seen either of your content. I thought with Nerfpool I h I'd heard what he like does. So I'm like, you know, it's like a movie, you don't wanna watch the trailers before, so I didn't check anything, but with Imp Imperator Im Imper Imperator? Is that how you say it? I went to your YouTube channel and you have this video where your your head is shaved and you're just doing like a Christmas special.
imperator (00:59.886)
Thank you.
imperator (01:19.246)
Emperor, yeah, yeah, that's fine, that's fine.
CaptainCoach (01:29.648)
And you And I was watching, I'm like, all right, I'm Yeah I it was funny 'cause I did like literally the exact same thing before. So I thought it was I I I absolutely wait, you would tank me? I knew it. I could tell. I could tell.
imperator (01:29.801)
don't worry about that. That's like let's just not talk about that.
Coach Mills (01:30.926)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:33.192)
You gotta do what you gotta do for content.
Coach Mills (01:35.905)
No.
imperator (01:41.624)
Great minds think alike, bro. Great minds think alike.
Coach Mills (01:42.083)
No. No. And all all the content I've seen Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the content I've seen of Imp was you just mogging. You're like moging everybody. You quackly, you're mogging Necros. It's it's great. It's it's good shit. but yeah, so we just got a new patch. and what we're gonna do is we're gonna go through and we're gonna go through just the changes and g and everyone can give their general thoughts on the changes. But before we get to that, I wanna hear starting with you, Imp.
imperator (01:46.488)
Yes.
CaptainCoach (01:54.754)
shit.
imperator (01:56.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (02:11.326)
I d can I call you imp is is that is that is that fine? Okay, I'm just making sure kinda feels fucked up. how do you feel about season eight? Like what's what's your what's your overall thoughts on season eight? Yeah, yeah.
imperator (02:12.897)
Yeah can come in bro. Call me anything you want bro. Call me call me anything you want.
CaptainCoach (02:15.86)
No.
imperator (02:22.989)
Current like the current season win, right? I I I have like 80 games played max, you know. Like I I I was like today I wasn't even playing rivals. Like last week I'm not even playing rivals unlicensed like for scrims for MRC. I'm I'm just running like World of Warcraft keys with Necros like others, you know. Like we're we're I'm not even touching the game, you know. As as a tank player, I I this is the worst season of my life. I was I was vividly enjoying playing Strange, and then Devil Dinosaur comes out, pick or ban. Good luck playing any shield tank in the Devil Dinosaur. Just super boring, overtuned.
Coach Mills (02:36.107)
CaptainCoach (02:37.708)
shit.
imperator (02:52.941)
Trash. So like as a tank player, it's like really unfun. So I had to the only games I had fun with was like playing flank Luna. That's like the only thing I had fun with.
Coach Mills (02:59.512)
Okay, gotcha. And do you do you think do you think it's purely because of Devil Dino that is the unfun meta, or do you think there's other factors involved as well?
CaptainCoach (03:00.65)
another villain created.
imperator (03:10.157)
Well there was like we had to deal with like Gambit being like pick or ban, right? Like and the Gambit dodging nerves, like successfully evading nerves for like six seasons, right? Like that that that's like the I I can deal with that. But like then they released Devil Dinosaur, which is like you either build four heroes around Devil Dinosaur or you will just lose the mirror, or you just waste a ban on and the enemy gets like a black cat or Daredevil player and you don't have one.
Coach Mills (03:15.234)
For the five seasons, yeah, or four, yeah.
Coach Mills (03:31.628)
Hmm, gotcha. Gotcha. So you you will you say that season eight is like the worst season for you, like at of of all time? Do you think it's like your your least favorite?
imperator (03:40.897)
Okay, no, my least favorite is one point five with like torch, torch ultra meta. Triple support torch ultra meta. That like the worst.
Coach Mills (03:46.627)
Ooh, okay, okay, okay, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, just non in non interactive garbage, right? Like just stuff that as tank players we just can't do anything about, right? That makes sense. what about you, Nerfpool? How do you how do you feel about eight point
imperator (03:50.817)
This is second place, second place, second place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nerfpool (04:01.351)
Completely awful. So for me, and just for reference, I play in the lower ranks, right? You guys are really good at the game, and I haven't gotten the time to do that. Maybe, maybe Coach can hook me up with some sweet, sweet coaching, and then I'll be able to. But I plugged you there. You gotta admit that I did plug you. The one. Yeah, I don't know. You guys need to come up with better names, but the one that does the coachings. but
CaptainCoach (04:16.845)
I got you. Wait, which coach?
Coach Mills (04:20.952)
That's a lot of coach.
Coach Mills (04:25.974)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (04:30.435)
Ever since they messed with the alt charge, the lower ranks have been a complete dumpster fire because it revealed that neutral is more important than necessary. So now these people can't press a little button and then add value. So now even more feeding is happening, even more frustration is happening, and they just can't figure out how to kite and do all the basic things that you're supposed to do. So yeah, I'm also a tank player. I'm a Captain America tank player.
Which is even more unfortunate in the lower ranks, and it's been
Coach Mills (04:59.864)
It's crazy that I got y'all both in the dark and I still just got two tank maids like chat like the like the comments always get pissed at us for never having any support players and I was just like, Alright, well I they just don't exist.
CaptainCoach (05:05.199)
Ha ha ha.
Nerfpool (05:05.819)
I know.
Nerfpool (05:14.555)
But I am converting slowly to a more responsible support player because of you guys. Cause a lot of times you talk about like supports having a bit more balls and a bit more zoos to what they do. And I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to make plays. I'm trying to not be a heel bot and to add to the overall team composition. So I've been doing that primarily because of you guys. So that's kind of fun. But Tank has been awful in the last couple of seasons. So it's been rough.
CaptainCoach (05:41.124)
That's a a really interesting thing. Cause another critique we've had, apart from not getting enough support players on, is we don't have enough lower rank players on. And it's nice to hear your insight. I think what you're saying really makes sense if you think about it, right? Because the alts in Marvel Rivals are all very, very strong. It's the most skillless part about the game, is just when the alts come down. Would you say that in the lower ranks, what rank are you, by the way?
Nerfpool (06:08.5)
I am currently a diamond two.
CaptainCoach (06:11.475)
okay, that's not that's not super low rank.
Coach Mills (06:14.338)
Yeah, they're gonna get mad at us. They're like, It's not low enough. We need to get bronze players. Like it is yeah.
Nerfpool (06:14.506)
you're being nice.
Okay, well let me let me put it this way. I'll I'm I'm gonna get it lower. I'm currently a diamond two, but I always kinda go back 'cause I go on these beautiful winning streaks. For some reason. And losing streaks, sorry. So I do primarily like Diamond 2's my peak, so that's the furthest I've gotten. I'm really like a like a late platinum diamond one kind of player, depending on how hard I tilt and how big my losing streaks are.
CaptainCoach (06:43.001)
It's not tilt the nerf pool, it's EOMM. But I don't know. I don't know. We'll we'll push it aside. We'll push it aside. What I what I wanted to ask you though, I I I did want to ask, because this is not a topic we've been able to talk about a ton, what changes or or do you think could be made to targeted specifically at casuals that would make the experience better for them? That or do you think maybe the game shouldn't be balanced around?
Coach Mills (06:45.558)
No no not again.
Nerfpool (06:46.087)
don't start with this, you witch doctor No we won't
CaptainCoach (07:11.309)
around lower ranks, excuse me, 'cause we've had a lot of that and I'm I'm kind of having you serve as like devil's advocate to argue with people you've had in the past. Is there a reason to balance around the mid to lower ranks or not, do you think?
Nerfpool (07:24.849)
So are we talking about ranked or are we talking about rivals as a game?
CaptainCoach (07:26.679)
Ranked. Ranked. Yeah. Well, I guess I guess technically as a game, right? Because you know, there are some people who don't play ranked, and I'm sure they make changes based on those specific players too.
Coach Mills (07:28.034)
Well, yeah, right, go.
Nerfpool (07:38.264)
I think NetEase has a big task on their hands because the game is very casual friendly and it does attract the casual casual crowd. I'm a perfect example. I never played competitive games before this. I started dabbling with this one because honestly, because of magic. And then I had to learn things and I got naturally competitive with it, but still I kinda I kinda suck, but I'm all right. So
I don't know if they should balance too much around casuals because take the latest patch, for example. I know so many Star Lord players that are not going to be affected by this. They're not even going to read the patch notes and they're not going to optimize his fall off and not even think about that. They're just going to go pew pew and charge their ult. And that's about it. So I think ranked is probably should be ranked is ranked.
Right. I want as a casual player, I want to enter ranked and know that that's the place where pros play and it's more serious. I want that integrity to be there. I don't want to go in ranked that's built for casuals. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you're gonna create casual modes, make casual modes. 18 versus 18 is a great move. Doom match is a great move. I would even take it one step further, and that's an idea I've had for a long time, and it goes back to another topic.
Which is NetEase's relationship with content creators and what they give us to create content around. Fortnite has this, you know, concept of worlds. You get to build worlds and people get to play in your world, and you actually get paid for that, which is a pretty decent concept. I'd love to see rivals lean a lot more into that direction where they can have, for example, Captain Coach's world or server where maybe you can do some tweaks yourself, select the maps. All the Gunnar schemes are
CaptainCoach (09:27.415)
All the Gunnar skins are free.
Coach Mills (09:29.608)
okay, yeah. Yeah, of course.
Nerfpool (09:30.455)
Extra free. Mantises, butt cheeks look extra saucy. So in any case, I'd love to see more of a spin towards that. But ranked, I think ranks should be just competitive. And it for me as a casual, it should be a really pure competitive experience if I want to get that. Outside of that, maybe make a ranked experience for casuals, something that's a bit more loosey-goosey. I don't know, but I feel they're just not they're trying to balance things and they shouldn't. I think they should go in both directions and separate the two.
CaptainCoach (09:31.743)
Nerfpool (09:59.57)
And go super casual and then super competitive. If they can do this eSport stuff.
Coach Mills (10:02.211)
Kinda to your kind kinda to your talking point, this was a criticism back at Overwatch. Imp, did you ever you played Overwatch, right? You you were an Overwatch grinder or did you never play?
imperator (10:12.141)
I come from League of Legends.
Coach Mills (10:14.457)
League of Legends. okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cap Cap comes on you, League of Legends. Explains like while both of y'all are so toxic. Gee, no, it's but but but there was criticism back in Overwatch for like by participating in ranked like grinding to a certain level, you could unlock the gun skins, right? In in rank. You got points and you got special gun like skins, golden guns and stuff like that. And there was a lot of hardcore players that criticized that because the idea is you force casuals to play your mode.
CaptainCoach (10:15.279)
me too. Me too.
Nerfpool (10:15.804)
boy.
imperator (10:21.495)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's not wrong, not wrong.
Coach Mills (10:41.281)
In the same way that like there's things like skins that you have to get in competitive, like there's a lot of casuals that they might never even engage in competitive at all. Like they would not. They would just play only the casual mode. But when you put skins and certain things behind, you have to achieve gold rank in order to get them. Now all these players that would never even touch competitive, they're forced to touch it. Like they have to play it, they have to grind it. And then it kind of you like almost force the fusion. Like
I can see both sides. On one hand, it's like, it's cool to earn something and it's also cool to like you know, force casuals to be introduced to competitive, but on the other hand, it almost dilutes the experience because it's like, you know, they have to play it, so you're gonna kinda balance for like this giant group of people that are playing competitive even though like they w really wouldn't care, like normally, under normal circumstances. They just want the skin. They want the new w whatever skin that they're giving away at the end of the season. So
I don't know. What do you what do y'all that that kind of talks to what you're talking about, Nerf, but what you think about that? Do you think that that is like is is that forcing the fusion of that in a negative way, or is that fine? What do you think?
Nerfpool (11:44.968)
I think it's cool to give some stuff away for progression. I think that's fine. I if if anything, they're not doing enough of it. Like the fact that it just ends at I think what, platinum? You get like a recolor or something like that, and then it's over. Like you guys get nothing for like reaching higher ranks except a little badge sometimes, right? That's about it. So like pros also need some kind of cosmetics or something to show for it. Like it's it's you can't just say it. So I'd say it's cool, but what I will say personally from my experience in Rivals.
Coach Mills (11:59.704)
Not really. Yeah, we get nothing, yeah.
Nerfpool (12:14.395)
They've done a really bad job at teaching me the fundamentals of the game. Like the fact that the matchmaking itself rewards performance, individual performance in the earlier ranks rather than team performance is the dumbest thing I can think of. I didn't realize that until they came out with that little hand wavy video that they talked about. And you're teaching essentially the Moon Knight that he should spam damage and hit the stats that show up on tab, which is now I'm learning. That's not the fucking game.
It's not about that whatsoever.
CaptainCoach (12:45.551)
It's it's treated like a phone game, Mills, is what it is. Like if you really think about it, like stat tracking and all that, like go, go, go, up like really, if they did it had like a solid tutorial, I feel like, that kind of taught you how hero shooters are played more or less.
Coach Mills (12:58.519)
Yeah. I mean I mean w we we ran into this we ran into the same problem. Sorry to cut you off. We ran into these same problems in Overwatch because of in the beginning of Overwatch there was the metal system. Whereas like you got gold, silver, or bronze, depending on how you ranked a certain set categories. So like if you had gold damage or like gold allims, like the most a limbs on your team. So like someone would be playing like shit and they'd say like, I have gold damage. Like that like none of what you say matters 'cause I have gold damage and it's like
CaptainCoach (13:04.174)
No, you're good.
Coach Mills (13:25.557)
No, like that's that doesn't fucking matter. And but we're seeing the same problem here where it's like, I have S VP, I have MP I have Ace. Like fuck you, I have Ace. It's like motherfucker, you just like has been farming on Moon Knight. Like like like there's no What do you think, coach? Do you think that they should like maybe try to teach people things inside the game? Have like more tutorials, like like one on one fundamental, take space. Or or do you think it's better that people figure that out?
CaptainCoach (13:32.984)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (13:48.546)
I mean, I I had a little experience and imp, I'm gonna pull you into this. Like so imp so so with League of Legends, like damage in League of Legends like actually matters. Like you we both know because that damage sticks, there's not just ridiculous amounts of sustain. So they almost kind of like trick you into thinking you're playing good a lot with the the performance system and like the stats. How much do you think they matter? Do you think like a tutorial could
imperator (13:55.841)
Just imp, yeah.
Coach Mills (13:57.324)
Yeah.
imperator (14:05.751)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (14:17.091)
be good for the game to kind of teach like new players how to play so they wouldn't maybe have to balance around lower ranks.
imperator (14:23.341)
See like okay, so n like Netes is Chinese, right? Like China is one of the most advanced countries when it comes to AI. Okay. I I think they should literally have like an AI system for and it's not like this this basic like AI versus human battles where you're like playing as like obvious like robots, right? Even the hard mode robots are like silver at max at best. You should have a self-learning AI.
CaptainCoach (14:24.495)
Like where would you start with all that?
imperator (14:50.241)
That learns from data harvested from players from across all ranks. And you can play against those in their respective ranks, the way they play. You can have a self-learning bot that generates its gameplay through player data. So like it can it can literally steal the way high low players play, like a self-learning bot. And the longer time goes on, the better it gets, the higher you can up the difficulty. It's like those chess bots, you know? You could have for rivals as well, and you can have low players play against that. If they don't feel comfortable playing in ranked, they can go against their own
maybe a bit higher rank and review their gameplay through there, you know?
CaptainCoach (15:21.239)
That's really interesting. My question to that is: what if the bots in the game start asking for my social security number? What do I do then?
Coach Mills (15:27.529)
Yeah, okay.
imperator (15:28.653)
I mean I would I would give t I I mean I I I don't think they would you know but
Coach Mills (15:31.865)
I if if i is it the black cat voice actors, so then it'll probably give it you br give it up.
Nerfpool (15:32.295)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (15:32.862)
imperator (15:36.906)
Yeah. But but to balance for lower I I don't think they should balance for lower players. You know, like when when Nerf was talking about balancing for lower players and like giving like focusing more on like the creator side, I I think they should give less to creators. So like hold on. It it might sound if it it might sound bad. Hold on, no, no, no. No no no no listen listen listen listen listen. We we we've been we've been we've been hand fed a bit too much, okay? Like the the Cinnabrit tournament that's going on right now, one fifty K tournament, okay, one hundred fifty thousand.
Coach Mills (15:52.302)
Whoa woah woah woah wo chill chill Cut his mic cut his Okay
CaptainCoach (15:53.123)
Whoa, yo, chill, bro.
Nerfpool (15:53.617)
Whoa. All right, get off. Get off. I'm about
Coach Mills (16:04.931)
Yep, wanna talk about that, yeah.
imperator (16:06.839)
There's probably gonna be like not like many like Marvel Marvel creators playing, you know, like more like more so big creators for advertising, right? But the best advertisement a game can get is word of mouth, right? So what if instead of investing like one hundreds of thousands into these tournaments, we invest hundreds of thousands into a new balance team. And this balance team acts for balancing from Celestial and above, and then you have balancing for Grandmaster and below, right?
And when you have a balancing team for Celestia and Above that listens to like Celestia and Above players and gathers actual like high elo players' opinions, you can balance for that section of the game. And you have a separate balancing team for the people that want to have fun, you know? And then when you start having a healthy balancing team, people start saying, Yo, I'm actually enjoying Rivals Rank. Because like every time I go into a VC with my friends that don't play rivals, they're like, you're still playing that dead game. You're still playing that game that has like terrible matchmaking or like terrible balancing. Word of mouth, if you start saying no, they actually have like two different balancing teams.
The balancing is actually so much better in high and low. You actually get start getting people to play the game again for the people that quit the game because of bad balancing or bad matchmaking. Because having a new team, new members that focus on the game helps the game's health itself.
Coach Mills (17:13.229)
Well I so okay go.
Nerfpool (17:13.701)
Yeah. I can so I'll give you I'll give you a couple of things there as well. I agree. I think something like that needs to exist. In terms of tutorials, just a quick one. a game that I got really into was UFC five. And UFC five did a really cool thing where they actually included in-game tutorials by the content creators that do educational content to begin with. So they actually had a really interesting creator program with the creators where they kind of got the, you know, five, six people that are really great at this.
And then embedded that within the actual onboarding experience, which was I think pretty cool, 'cause a lot of guys do a lot of cool stuff here. And I've I've personally learned all of everything that I know about this game through content creators. I learned nothing from rivals. So I'd like to see something like that at least done.
CaptainCoach (17:53.01)
it's that'd be really cool.
imperator (17:54.326)
Rivals has this. Rivals has this, but like in a bit of a different way. That's like you you guys don't probably don't like you maybe have heard of the word, but like it's so poorly advertised that like not many people know of it. In the Rivals Discord server, those coaches exist. They're called Pathfinders. Coach, have you heard of those? There's a there's a special role on the Marv Rivals Discord. It's called a Pathfinder role. You can apply for it if you're a coach.
Coach Mills (18:09.635)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm a pathfinder. I'm technically one. Yeah. Yeah. They exist, yeah.
imperator (18:17.131)
Or like a high yellow player, you want to help lower yellow players, you can apply for a pathfinder role. And that role has like you can host what what do you call those Discord things? Discord meetings or something? Discord those stages, you know where you have a stage, and you can like do vols like help players, but it's like not that advertised. So like if you can ha implement those Pathfinder systems in the game itself, instead of having people to have it in the Discord, boom. They could they could easily do it, they could easily do it.
Coach Mills (18:36.889)
Yeah, and they they could definitely do it. I mean, they could definitely do it. Yeah, yeah. But well wait real quick, I wanted to respond to Imp real quick. 'cause 'cause I know you talked about the Cinnat tournament and you said like 'cause I agree with you about having like a balanced team. Like like having a balanced team, like a playtest team. We talked about that in the last batch. But I I don't really like this framing that it's like we're wasting money on this tournament, so that we we should spend the money here instead. When like you gotta understand, like netties is like printing money. Like there's like
CaptainCoach (18:40.43)
So
Coach Mills (19:05.389)
Mountains of cash. It's there's never a there's never a should we spend the cash here or there? No, no, no. They come out with a summer skin and they just made a billion dollars. Like they have as much money, they could host like a hundred tournaments and they could still make a like a playtest team. You know what I'm saying? Like there's no there's no limit to this amount of money. and like one of the things I think about a lot is perspectives of the casual matter, like you said, like people say like a game's dog shit or whatever.
A lot of times that doesn't actually mirror the reality of the game. It just mirrors like public sentiment. So like there was times where like Overwatch, Overwatch was looked at at so negatively for so long because of the PvE thing. Like they didn't deliver on the the the PvE of the game. So like casuals hated it. Like I mean it like review bombed on Steam. And even when the competitive players like started to like it again, like they implemented changes and they fixed a lot of stuff, no one cared. So like I think when they run big tournaments like this
With someone Cinna and they're trying to like all these casual people in, they're mostly just trying to change their perception. It's like a big advertisement, is all it is. That's that's mainly why there's not gonna be a lot of rivals creators in the in the tournament in the first place, is because it's like it's an advertisement for normies, non non competitive people that play rivals. It's like it's literally just an ad. They're paying 150 bucks for an ad, is what they're doing. and that's a ch that's actually a cheap ad when they're like running ads on like TikTok and they're probably spending way more than that on on like random ads, like to be honest with you.
CaptainCoach (20:31.215)
Yeah I'm
imperator (20:31.863)
I I agree about like the public opinion, right? Like, do you guys remember the XQC tournament? XQC tournament with like like the b the big X season one when XQC was still playing the game. There was like a big, big XC tournament, 200k XQC tournament, okay? Was the game the game was insanely fun in season one if you remember, coach. Every hero was like fun to play and it was fun to watch and it was new, right? Do you think it's better it's a better return on investment to invest big money into tournaments back then or into tournaments now? Because
Coach Mills (20:36.729)
for
Coach Mills (20:43.999)
Yeah, I think so.
CaptainCoach (20:44.845)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (20:47.703)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (20:53.837)
Yeah. Fresh.
imperator (21:01.695)
You the public you're saying you're trying to change the public opinion, right? But because there is a lack of balancing, lack of proper matchmaking, do you think the public perception is gonna be better back then or bet better now? Because now if you like show someone the game, it it's it's gonna be like triple support slope like there's gonna be people like complaining about it, they have triple support, that is that. It it it's hard to like make the game look as good as it was back then, you know? Like you have to fix the route first.
Coach Mills (21:13.399)
Well yeah.
Coach Mills (21:21.113)
Yeah. But the problem is like like a lot of those issues, like a lot of the issues we're dealing with today, they existed back then. We just didn't give a shit. Like we didn't c like triple support was broken in season one. Like it was a hundred percent broken in season one. Like Luna Loki was broken in season one. Like, but like we didn't really care because we weren't we weren't like hyper optimized like we are today. and like I think that
imperator (21:40.759)
Yeah, L Luna Loki, yeah.
Coach Mills (21:48.526)
They're mostly just trying to show it to new audiences that don't really have like they just wanna they just wanna show like, look, it's a fucking dinosaur, let's play the game. I I do understand what you're saying, but like I don't really think that hyperbalancing the game is going to change the minds of casuals or like people that aren't like it's gonna it's gonna make us happy. I don't really think it's gonna make like people that don't play the game happy. I might be wrong, but that that's just my opinion.
CaptainCoach (21:56.515)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:13.303)
I mean, I think the real evidence is who they asked to do the tournament. I mean, no not a knock to Cine Brit. I'm sure sh you know, she makes like great content, but I think sh most people know she's primarily known as a a like a just chatting streamer. Like she's not she's like a very casual Marvels player and she's been like, you know, I think she plays like Squirrel Girl. So I think like her hosting the tournament is obviously like a commitment to try to get new players in, which when they see the game imp like they're not gonna know what's gonna
Coach Mills (22:28.471)
Right. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (22:42.915)
Like had they're just gonna be like, ha fun turning. And I can I think that's kind of what that that's kind of the point. They're they're they're spending money to attract a casual crowd. But you look at this patch, right? And there's some changes that are clearly directed at the higher ranks. And I wanted to touch back on something Nerfpool said real quick before we move on, which was you guys said you wanted separate balancing for the higher ranks and the lower ranks. What would be your like response to the people who say that would split the p the player base? Is is kind of what I wanted.
Coach Mills (22:54.659)
Yeah. Let's let's actually
Nerfpool (23:09.983)
great, split it. Please split it. I mean I'd fuck, split it. I don't care.
imperator (23:11.701)
Split it yeah, split it split it.
CaptainCoach (23:13.025)
Yeah, you don't care? 'Cause you know, like League has A RAM different stats for heroes and A RAM as apart you know, apart from the main game mode
imperator (23:19.617)
Yeah, they have air imbalancing and then yeah, yeah. Split. Let the casuals enjoy their game and let the high-look players enjoy.
CaptainCoach (23:22.169)
Right.
Nerfpool (23:22.352)
No, I would I would split it. Just make make the casual mode a shit show.
Coach Mills (23:22.659)
My my my my problem I don't I don't with my problem is I don't know if it would a hundred percent make it better. It just might make the bad balancing more apparent, if that makes sense. like
Nerfpool (23:35.61)
It will. And you're touching on something which is we should talk about later, which is like a lot of this goes back to the to the way that the matchmaking works.
Coach Mills (23:44.192)
Yeah, okay. We'll we'll get there. We'll get there for sure. Okay. but okay, all right. Can y'all see what I'm showing y'all when we go through the patch switch? can you can y'all can all y'all see can you see? Can you see what we're going through? we're gonna go through each change one at a time and we're just gonna talk about them, give our give our thoughts, and then we'll move on. We'll also talk about Cyclops at the end. But First let's talk about Angela. So what they did with Angela is now her charge is on a four second cooldown instead of six, two less. Now she gets
Nerfpool (23:46.246)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (23:51.662)
One of us
Nerfpool (23:52.816)
You can see.
imperator (23:57.515)
Yep, yep. Again.
Coach Mills (24:13.901)
fifty more shields and the recovery rate on her shield to bring it back to full health is instead of fifty per second, it's sixty per second. And there's also a faster duration between using your shield. Instead of one point five seconds, it's one second. let's start with you imp. How do you feel about this Angela change? What are your thoughts?
imperator (24:32.151)
Right? I mean I I play Angela. I think other tank players that don't play Angela dislike it. I think they I think almost every every tank or supporter to keep player dislikes an Angela meta. they kind of reverted her original nerf. They kinda over n they reverted her original nerf because they originally wanted her Assassin's Charge cooldown h higher and they buffed her brawl. They made her axes do more damage, they gave her a bit more HP
Coach Mills (24:35.14)
no. Okay, no it's kidding. Yes.
Coach Mills (24:44.301)
Yep. Yep.
CaptainCoach (24:45.94)
Yeah, just go thing.
Coach Mills (24:47.481)
Disco thing, yeah. Wait wait e okay I guess it
imperator (25:01.921)
And now they're just like reverting the nerf. So now she has and brawl and she can go in and out more. the shield HP is also revert, I think. I think that was nerfed in the previous patch, and now it's back to 350. I mean, makes sense. Every every dep there's more DPS, more hit scans now, and especially with Cyclops, I think she needs a survivability. And the cancelling the shield is just like the Emma shield cancel recoveries, like quality of life.
Coach Mills (25:05.699)
Yep. Yep.
CaptainCoach (25:25.241)
She'll be able to do the the cancel like quicker now, right? Like she'll be able get more in. Yeah. Like that's that's honestly I also play Angela. She's gonna be a lot of fun to play. She she's probably gonna be triggering tenacity like Hella, though, because because it's she will be because on this if you get like a charge back to back like pretty quick because of the cooldown, you might actually it might it might create some weird situations. But yeah, no, I I agree like overall these are really great changes for Angela. Like she's probably gonna be like hard meta.
imperator (25:28.639)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (25:29.795)
Should be.
Coach Mills (25:37.913)
That is that is that is interesting. Yeah, she probably will be
Coach Mills (25:55.597)
What what do you think, nerf? What's your thoughts?
Nerfpool (25:57.575)
I love it. I I love any tank that can allow player expression and some creativity whenever you need it. She has that in spades. The most mobile character probably in the game outside of a Spider-Man, most likely. I see her as the police in the lobby. Like she's anybody's off position, she's gonna ding you right back to where you need to be. She's gonna punish bad mistakes. And in my ranks, in the lower ranks, that's great because those are everywhere. So I can I can go crazy. I love this. And this is more in line with her being.
Coach Mills (26:14.476)
In yeah.
Nerfpool (26:25.444)
A bit more balanced both in flight and not. So that's cool. I'm super happy with it. I love Angela. outside of cap.
CaptainCoach (26:31.971)
You like buff goddesses, nerf fool.
Coach Mills (26:32.825)
Yeah. yeah. Of course. so I'm happy for Angela players because I think Angela was one of the weakest tanks, you know, in 8.0. Like super bad in Dino meta, just honestly pretty bad in general. Like power crept out of the game for the most part. I will say that Angela falls into a similar category of tank that Emma has been in the past and Dino does to an extent, where like
Nerfpool (26:34.962)
Hell yeah. Get that redhead sorted.
Coach Mills (26:59.179)
It's an anti tank tank, or she feels a lot like an anti tank tank. Like there are certain matchups that feel completely miserable to play into Angela. and I think it's fine for like a season or two, but I just can't imagine like a permanent Angela meta. Like I think I would lose my mind. There's certain tanks that you just Like if you're playing Magneto, like nonstop into Angela, like you're you hate yourself on certain maps. You're just gonna get pulled off every single time. And if there's two kidnappers, you're just I you're just gonna
So i this character is really good like these these buffs are massive. Like I think that there's a good chance this character is one of the best tanks in the game. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (27:33.965)
Yeah. She went from bottom three to top three tag.
Nerfpool (27:34.962)
Yeah. Yep.
imperator (27:36.425)
Yeah, I agree. Like the the the three the three tanks that are like the most cortisol inducing, like the cortisol spike inducing tanks that you don't want to be meta for a long time are Angela, Groot, and Thor. Like if one of those three tanks is like meta for a too long time, you you're no no tank likes playing into Thor, no tank likes playing into Groot meta with three supports, and no tank likes playing to like a Angela poke hard dive meta.
Coach Mills (27:42.82)
Hey.
Nerfpool (27:43.64)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (27:47.508)
Yes. Yeah yeah yeah no no no yeah yeah you You can give them a little bit and then you gotta you gotta you gotta rail them back in a hundred percent yeah yeah and then just that's yeah but and but hey that I as long as they pull them back like we're good like I just there's just fucking supports we'll talk about in this video and some DPS that just like they never undeploy them.
imperator (28:00.11)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (28:00.926)
You almost gotta deploy them the second deploy the Angela, deploy the whatever, and then it just bother people for a season and then pull them out before they start hating their life.
imperator (28:05.068)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (28:17.453)
They d they don't fucking undeploy them. They're just here forever.
CaptainCoach (28:17.665)
I I I will say one thing too before we move on is the fact that there were reverts here to previous changes. That's something you're gonna notice a lot in these patch notes. And I just want to take a second to like praise NetEase, though, because like it's very rare from my experiences to see developers just revert changes after they're like, yeah, we we messed up, it didn't work out. Like it it's one thing that I criticize League, they would just never revert changes because their developers were just like
Coach Mills (28:30.185)
Yeah, I'm gonna be so
Coach Mills (28:40.952)
No
CaptainCoach (28:45.975)
Always thought they were right about what they were Yeah, go ahead.
Coach Mills (28:48.801)
I'll forgive them for this because what they nerfed Angela when Angela was really really good. There's two changes that we'll talk about later where they nerfed characters they literally just buffed, but they buffed them when they didn't need the fucking buffs in the first place. Like that I will not forgive. This is forgivable. This is not the same as that. Like we'll we'll get there though. I'm I'm I'm still pissed off about we'll talk about it. Okay. Devil Dino. Okay, so Devil Dino no longer grounds flyers.
CaptainCoach (29:01.249)
Yeah. Okay. All right.
CaptainCoach (29:08.719)
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
Coach Mills (29:16.899)
So he's not an anti flyer anymore. He can still shoot them, but he can't ground them, which is a really big deal. The the barrier is now two seconds longer, from ten seconds to twelve seconds. And the bleed percentage damage per second on the bleed effect is half, one point five percent from three percent. imp, what do what do you what do you think about this change? Is this enough to kill the dyno? Is
imperator (29:37.282)
Terrible, terrible nerfs, terrible nerfs, terrible nerfs. The nerve they're like the wrong parts of the kit for Dino, in my opinion. The grounding part you barely use, unless like you're playing into a Star Lord like Ultron, which is like Ultron, you're only like playing against a really high level on scrims or like competitive for your play three supports. The body barrier cooldown two seconds, it doesn't mean much. Like the more the problem with Dino is is he can walk up, grab you, and there's a four hundred HP big bubble preventing healing from happening.
Coach Mills (29:41.793)
Mm.
Coach Mills (29:59.278)
Not enough.
imperator (30:06.111)
If you want to nerf Dino, cut the shield's HP in half, first of all. If you want to nerf Dino, reduce the percentage HP he does with his bites. I know that's a big part of his skill, but reduce the percentage a bit. So like he's not like as much of a hard tank buster when he's like doing his shield kidnap combo. And remove reduce his mobility while he's he like you know like those cancels with the shift where you can like jump in there, like leap super far away. Those those like one 180 jumps, yeah.
Coach Mills (30:32.225)
Yeah, of the one hundred eighties, the jump and yeah.
CaptainCoach (30:32.43)
Yeah.
imperator (30:35.379)
N those are the parts which make Dino like a strong tank. His ults
Coach Mills (30:38.393)
I mean, that's those are like the only bits of his skill expression, but yeah, they are broken.
imperator (30:42.379)
Yeah, they are the broken parts as well. Like and his old like his old is like you can increase the cost. He does get old a bit fast because you can apply the bleed to everyone with your right click, right? You can inc but like the damage per second of the bleed effect, I can see it, but like the barrier cooldown is it's like a placebo nerf and the knockdown effect as well. Like it's only worth into some comps.
CaptainCoach (31:03.151)
Yeah, I yeah, I'm in total agreement. I th have a video on where I talked about how they could nerf Dino and I wanted them to maybe f focus more on making him kind of tanky and being able to deal with those like range matchups that just make him blow up like a little better just by making the shield smaller. And I I thought I agree, I I I think the shield should be nerfed too, but I think they should have just made the whole radius of it like a lot smaller and then yeah, obviously break quicker.
And then maybe like potentially if it gets popped, like in in you know, in situations of high damage, give him maybe like a little damage reduction just for him because the fact that you can use it to block heals, like you said, with the kidnaps, it's just obnoxious. And I didn't think that the the beam for the the anti flyer thing, I didn't think that was that bad. Like
Coach Mills (31:45.658)
But but but guys, we could play Iron Man against him now. I'm just trolling. Easy calendar. It's shut shut him down. Yeah, right? No? my bad. No, I no I'm just I'm just trolling. no So there's been this ongoing debate between like pros and casual audiences about the Dino. what do you where do you fit in there, Nerf Pool, about like do you think Dino is just like, you know, is is is he a character that you think is good to be meta or what's your experience, you know, in the ranks you play with Dino?
CaptainCoach (31:50.403)
Yeah.
imperator (31:53.973)
Yeah, I guess bro. Ironman. 'Cause Iron Man is being played a lot.
CaptainCoach (31:56.249)
And then
Coach Mills (32:15.595)
And and you know, this change. How do you feel about it?
Nerfpool (32:18.622)
Good question. I I don't think the lower ranks have figured out what he does. I got a dino yesterday that was flanking me. So I don't know, man. I had a guy on comms going rarr when he, you know, went in with his ult. So I don't think they know what to do with him. I I'm I stand in front of dinos a lot of times as a mag and they just chomp at me, but I don't get thrown back into their team or anything that I would I haven't picked up the character myself.
So I don't think they know what to do with it. I think they just like that he's big and red and you know kind of looks like a devil. So I haven't seen him being a problem. And I actually haven't seen him being played that much, which is kind of wild. I thought everybody would want to be the big dino, but I think because he's not mobile and just kind of sits there in many cases, they just haven't picked him up. whenever I've been against a dino, I love going like Mantis or or Adam or something like that and just doing some fun things there. But
Honestly hasn't shown up a whole lot. It's just people haven't figured out how to play him. They just want something a bit more dynamic. And I don't think he's dynamic at all.
CaptainCoach (33:18.767)
That's honestly surprising. like I was not expect 'cause it he seems like he'd be better in the lower ranks, you know, like
Coach Mills (33:26.165)
He does require a lot of yeah.
Nerfpool (33:26.314)
He dies a lot because they can't heal him.
CaptainCoach (33:29.059)
Right. I I guess everybody's running triple two, like triple TPS, probably more commonly.
Coach Mills (33:32.717)
Yeah, a lot of D VS. There's a lot of Moon Knights and Squirrel Girls that are just like randomly around, you know? Just like the stun, the constant stun. I could see that. I could see that.
Nerfpool (33:32.905)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (33:36.063)
Right. Wanda's good into him too, actually, I think. Like Wanda's actually decent. Yeah. It's obnoxious.
Nerfpool (33:43.839)
He's a bit of an ult battery in the ranks at us, as far as I can see it. And then what I've seen, I think I've played him a couple of times just to try. I don't, as a tank in the lower ranks, I really have huge mistrust of my healers. And it's it's okay. I try to take as least damage as possible, but there's just situations where I'm like, you're right there. Could it help me a little bit? I've seen him die so easy. Once you get through a certain like, I think they really struggle to top him up once he gets low, because he just has such a big hell, big health bar.
That it takes him a while to get him going and he absorbs all the healing.
Coach Mills (34:12.557)
You hear that chat? Top up your fucking dinosaur. no he it's it's one of those things where like the character is actually really cyclical. Like there's a cycle to him with your grab and into your bubble that like once you do that cycle, that's where the value comes from, where you're just kidnapping into bubbling them off into getting a free kill, right? But like with most characters that require a certain cycle, lower rank players have a problem.
Nerfpool (34:18.25)
He is a dinosaur.
Coach Mills (34:40.813)
like executing that cycle. Like it's really important. If you don't execute that cycle, you're not really doing what the character is supposed to do. Like if you're just running it as dyno and just like trading damage 24 7, that's not really what makes them broken in high Elo. What's broken is that cycle. And and to to your point, Imp, like the change from 10 to 12 seconds in the barrier, that might make the cycle slightly slower, but it doesn't make the character worse. Cause they can just wait an extra two seconds and then do the same fucking cycle that they've been doing and just do the same thing.
Like, you know, if they've done it if they did it sixty times in the game now they're doing it like fifty eight times and it's still br busted. So anyways,
Nerfpool (35:18.256)
And and just a quick one before we move on, another problem with the lower ELO is that let's say they do the cycle. Let's say they grab me, throw me into their team, and then they bubble. Their team just looks at me, goes like, Huh, a cap and then moves on. They don't focus me, they don't do anything, I can just jump back out. So that's the that's the other problem that even if you create that opportunity for your team, a lot of times they don't take it.
Coach Mills (35:30.325)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Coach Mills (35:38.846)
all right, let's move on to Magneto. This is a pretty simple one. his ultimate is now the maximum duration goes up from four to five seconds, and the the damage when fully charged is now three fifty instead of three hundred. so I play a lot of Magneto. or at least I I used to play him a lot more. I actually think this is a really good change because it gives you more decision making on the ultimate. Like
You can hold it for like an extended period of time if you're trying to neutralize an ult, like a Star Little and and mostly it's just because this ultimate is like more like this makes the ultimate more defensive oriented. but what do you what do you think? What do you think, Cap how do you feel about this change? Do you think
CaptainCoach (36:17.059)
No, I agree. I was kind of back and forth about this one when I was thinking about it. It's like Mags alt is probably the best part about his kit, but you you really look at it and you you can kind of view this almost as like a like a a buff for the like lower rank Mags, I would say, because yeah, it gives him like more freedom to hold it. But and like in higher ranks, if you hold it that long, most people are just gonna find cover anyway.
So it's like you're not really going to get the max value in a lot of situations. But yeah, I like what you said where it's encouraging people to use it defensively. Like I I get that. I totally get that. And and I I think that to me is like the sign of a good change because you get more options and it doesn't necessarily make him feel any more overpowered to go against. It's just like you have to respect it more, you know, and it it it's it's like a night.
Coach Mills (36:41.473)
Who I like. You could yeah. Yeah, right.
Coach Mills (36:58.187)
Yeah. 'Cause if they if they did something like rate like make it so that it built up charge faster or did more damage, like that would be different 'cause it'd just be like straight up more power and I wouldn't really like that change. But this is just like more more decision making, you know, more length lengthening engagements instead of shortening them, I guess, i if that makes sense.
CaptainCoach (37:15.971)
I think this is like a really clever change overall. And it it it it's not really gonna I don't think it's gonna be bad to play against. Like, but
Coach Mills (37:24.247)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (37:24.362)
Yeah, I think it's gonna promote more magnetos. It just creates the execution, makes it a little easier. And also it's gonna help a little bit more with those Star Lord alts. It's just a lot of times if I you know, if I decide to alt into a Star Lord just to absorb it, it does run out pretty quickly. So this will help, but
I play Magneto a lot. I think other than Cap, he's the only one that I'm almost a champion with. I I love him. this is great. Like it took a while to get the the timing of the ult and the mechanics of the ult. This is gonna make it a little bit easier. This is similar to what they did with Magic's dash recently, where you could just kind of hit it a lot more consistently. I love it. And any good change to Mag is good.
CaptainCoach (37:51.567)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (37:59.492)
Well also a bit more mind games too. You got like more time and stuff.
Nerfpool (38:03.477)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (38:04.365)
Right. Yeah. What wh wh what do you think it? you have any thoughts.
imperator (38:09.203)
I think the ult I think the ultra changes great. Usually like supports think they're in danger when it's a mag ult because they're like usually like lower HP compared to some DPSs, but like when you have the Magold that can like go up like higher, even some DPS with overshield are gonna get like one shot. So like depending on the situation, you might wanna like ult DPS instead of the support that's in their support ult, you know, like depending on like which ults are up for the next fight, you know? So I think it's it's it's actually increasing like the skill seeding of Mag by giving his ult more decision making.
Coach Mills (38:30.585)
Mm.
Coach Mills (38:37.101)
Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. okay, so rogue. So this is like a two part change 'cause first we have to talk about rogue directly getting changed, where now her dash ability that all is also the suck ability, that is down from fourteen seconds to twelve seconds. her defensive stance, the energy that is consumed when she's using her defensive stance goes down from sixty per second to fifty, so she can have her defense save stance up longer.
And then the conversion rate, which is like how much damage she absorbs so that she can punch back for like big chunks of damage, that's up twenty percent from thirty-five to fifty-five percent. So it's that change combined with the team up change, which is basically her team up with Gambit is gonna be far weaker. One percent less on instead of three percent, it's down to two percent for the percentage percentage damage dealt. And but the big change is
the spell field healing is down from fifty-five per fifty five to twenty five flat. So this team up is not gonna make her anywhere near as strong. It's it's not gonna give her crazy amounts of healing or teammates near near her. and like basically this change overall is kind of what some people have been asking for, which is a a a a change of her power away from the team up and into her base kit. what do you think, Ip? What do you think about this this rogue change?
imperator (39:54.973)
Yeah.
See, I I think the average player would say Rogue is dead. But like I I play with cringe alarm on a on a team for MRC. And I I think cringe alarm would say this is a buff. I think I think cringe alarm would this is a buff to rogue. even with the gamut. Because now not only does she get like s how do you say this? Like she like gets like
Coach Mills (40:07.449)
Crunchy alarm's is cringe alarm's insane, yeah.
imperator (40:20.277)
She can dive like without Gambit. Like she doesn't Gambit as much anymore. But even with Gambit, the team up didn't change much because the way we play it in a in a very hard dive comp, we don't really care about the healing. Like it's it the damage is down by 1%, right? But now this makes it so that like you can engage first as rogue. You can engage first as rogue, because you'll have your cooldown up faster again, the fatal attraction, right? But the energy conversion is fifty-five percent now. So like if they're attacking you first, you're gonna get your fully charge up right click out faster with the gambit team up included, you know?
So I think that's like with a well coordinated dive and rogue engaging first, I think this is gonna be better.
CaptainCoach (40:57.271)
Yeah, I I think it's better overall too. I mean plus should just be able to pick her more. I mean that's the kind of the big one. yeah, no, I I I like how they they're kinda leaning into like the unique parts about Rogue too, and the way they're buffing there, 'cause this is the second time they've actually buffed the the shield reflect damage. And it's actually it's it'll yeah, it's it's gonna encourage you to like dive and like use it as part of your combos, which is I I'm gonna probably be playing Rogue. It's gonna be a lot of fun trying this out.
Coach Mills (41:03.651)
Right.
Coach Mills (41:15.971)
Yeah. It's cool. It's really cool.
Coach Mills (41:27.437)
Yeah, it it's it's awesome to go go on up for sorry about that.
Nerfpool (41:27.755)
Yeah, I'd love No, I just the only thing the only thing is anything that improves her neutral and makes her not so dependent on the team up will be great. And I really like using that counterpunch thing. I think reversing the damage and throwing it back at somebody is great. I would even, you know, bump the damage up a little bit so it feels a bit more impactful. Maybe. I don't know what that's gonna do to the character, but I think this is great.
CaptainCoach (41:48.227)
Just gotta run it down more, take more damage with it. Dive into the our whole team.
Nerfpool (41:50.559)
Hell yeah.
Coach Mills (41:50.734)
Yeah, I like Yeah. Yeah, I I like I like the whole aspect that it's like it it's it's something that is used like it it punishes enemies for hitting it, like for actually shooting it for like I like that concept. It kinda reminds me of Doomfist and Overwatch, where there was like a powered powered block that could like be built up if enemies did a certain amount of damage. I like I like that whole concept and yeah, I think this is good. I in general, I hate characters that are super reliant on a team up too.
Nerfpool (41:53.183)
Make those support sweat.
CaptainCoach (41:55.149)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (42:18.435)
to to see any play, which was kinda was rogue. I rogue was probably like one of the worst tanks without the team up before this. I think she's probably.
CaptainCoach (42:25.888)
You realize she's gonna be able to one shot people with this, right?
Coach Mills (42:29.291)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, most likely, yeah.
CaptainCoach (42:32.407)
Should be yeah. 55% rogue was what like 600 health? That's 300 health plus like any damage amps. Like you could literally one shot people with this. It's insane. It's an insane buff. Like, and people, you know, and people in rank, when you dive, they'll just hit you right away. Like they won't think twice about it. So, like, you're gonna actually ac actually have to consider like whether or not you're gonna hit the rogue and like make sure you get away before you start hitting her, or she's just gonna pop your support. Like, I I think rogues gonna be busted with this. I think she'll she'll be like S tier.
Coach Mills (43:00.409)
Okay. okay, but that's this is the the only Vanguard changes. real quick, is there any changes that you wish were included here? Any Vanguard changes you wish were included here?
Nerfpool (43:12.339)
Hmm.
imperator (43:13.933)
Strange Buff Strange Boff Strange
Coach Mills (43:15.705)
Strange? Strange what? Both strange? Okay, wait, wait, imp, imp, imp. I have I have a specific gripe that I'm I'm pissed off about. I want to hear if you have the same criticism. when I play strange, if they are on White Fox Luna back line, where Luna gets the fucking days, White Fox has the days on six seconds, and she has the teleport with a shield, you can never fucking hit a strange ult. There's zero window. Like I was I was thinking about it, it's like
Nerfpool (43:16.468)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (43:17.497)
Strange.
imperator (43:35.941)
yeah, you can't play strange dad, you can't play strange dad.
Coach Mills (43:43.558)
One of those when the days cancel, both the days is cancel, and the Luna freeze cancels, and the fucking White Fox teleport often will cancel. There's no there's zero don't don't even forget that when White Fox ults, there's a window of where she's unstoppable, so she can't be CC'd during the activation of her ultimate. So and then of course when Luna ults, she just like
doesn't get hit either. So like there's literally no window that you'll ever hit a fucking strange hole. It it just doesn't happen. Like against those characters. Yeah. I I I've been I've been bitching about it on stream like nonstop 'cause it's just like
imperator (44:19.217)
Yeah, I I I mean every tank had like their moment in like the sun, okay? The last time Strange had their his moment was when Gamma was a thing, right? And and that was like when the game just came out and like people didn't realize like like it wasn't that competitive yet. And and then now we have modern, like we had Groot had like three seasons. Thor had a season for himself, Mag had a season with the team up, Thing wa was meta for a bit, like Angela on release.
Coach Mills (44:24.848)
Ha ha.
CaptainCoach (44:25.827)
Mm-hmm.
imperator (44:46.689)
Cap was meta for two different seasons, one with like flank Jeff and like one more recently. Like every tank has like got a lot. But like Strange, like every time they Strange feels a bit good to play, like A tier. I'm not asking him for like for him to like S plus, right? But the last time he like A tier like when the Invas team up came out. And like the season after that, they instantly nerfed his shield. And then nerfed his the his shield recharge. And then they nerfed his shield HP the season after. Like he just.
They they can't keep like strange in 80. Like he has to like be weaker because like I think mainly for like lower ranks, they don't really care like about like the ult of strange, right? So like they don't CC strange in his oath. So like I I'm guessing he gets complained about a lot in like the mid-midder like more mid-ranks. But like I don't even want like more damage or like more HP. I just want them to like revert the shield changes and and make it so that a shift the wind-up gets like cut in half. Cause like Strange
CaptainCoach (45:15.276)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (45:26.861)
Strange is
Coach Mills (45:37.433)
Mm. Yep.
imperator (45:38.631)
winding up to fly is like slower than homelander trying like fly in the last episode, you know? Like the strange takes so long to like float up. Like if they could just like cut it in half, his his shift would feel so much more nicer to use. And you would hit like you could hit better earls as well.
Nerfpool (45:42.411)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (45:43.737)
W fucking four, yeah.
CaptainCoach (45:54.96)
I feel like Strange is cool enough to be a season nine character, but had the curse of being one of the release heroes, so he's just weaker than everything else. Like yeah, like 'cause you're like what you're describing is is yeah, just like making him qu quicker, faster, less counter play. Like that's every new hero, like.
Coach Mills (46:01.625)
yeah.
imperator (46:02.891)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (46:02.976)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (46:10.605)
Bright, yeah, yeah. He he he's gotten yeah, he needs that power creep. He needs that that guang guang power creep, like ASAP. Alright, th this this one might be a hot take. and and here's the thing, my general philosophy is if a character's been too strong for too long, it's okay if that character is bad or weaker, like for a substantial amount time. I would personally like if they they made it so that Tank Pool's swords did anything. Like
CaptainCoach (46:18.263)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (46:38.337)
I I I could even see like a further nerf to the character if you want. But my problem is still the only way to build that character is with his guns. Like I hate I hate generally just the whole thing where it's like that's the question I always get when I'm playing tank pool. Whoa, do you use his swords? Use his sword. No, I don't fucking use his swords. Like I'll use the swords if I'm max level or I use it like in like one percent of the time. But it would be cool if there's like if you're gonna nerf one part of his kit, like give you give him a reason to like or give you options, like like
Build this way or build that way. Right now it's just like build this way. other than that, that's the only change I would give a shit about. I think. I think all the other changes are fine. yeah, buff Thor's ult, but I my it's hard because I think Thor's only allowed to be this strong in the neutral because it's shit ult. So it's fine.
CaptainCoach (47:24.547)
Hulk's gonna be a bottom three tank and I'm still not asking for anything.
Coach Mills (47:28.013)
There's no way he's gonna be about a thank you're capping. You're just you're so cappy, you're capp he's not, no, no, no, no, no, he's not, he's not, he's not. He's definitely not. He's definitely not. There's no way.
CaptainCoach (47:31.279)
Bottom three tank. Yes he is. No, he is. And I'm still I have principles. I Hulk doesn't need buffs. Just nerf just nerf all the DPS.
Nerfpool (47:41.772)
But I would like I would like the lower ranks to enjoy him too.
imperator (47:43.654)
I I think I think I think I think in solo queue I think in solo queue it might be a bottom three thing in Scrims like we we are running some cap we are running some cap Hulk combs like strange Hulk and it's like working nicely with like a brawl or like hybrid But you need communication to make Hulk like shine. You need good communication with your team and in solo Q you're not gonna find that communication I think in solo Q like only like the Br like the lifeless like the You have to you have to play Hulk like Spider-Man OTPs You have like be the day of Hulk like you have to like
CaptainCoach (47:47.651)
He he's
CaptainCoach (47:57.487)
Is it
imperator (48:10.017)
Thousands of hours and like you make one mistake, you fuck up your entire shit, you die. Like you you have to like have like a perfect like comp to play Hulk against and like hope like the enemy supports like are like a bit brain brain dead to make Hulk like not like a bottom three tank 'cause like just play Dino, just play Emma, just play th like yeah, just counter swap. Like Hulk's like yeah.
CaptainCoach (48:26.573)
You can just swap and yeah.
CaptainCoach (48:31.737)
Hook's hooks ass Mills. I'm telling you, he's he's bottom three tank right now. After this patch, is Angela Buffs.
Coach Mills (48:37.593)
I don't think I can agree. I don't think I can agree. I mean, like, once you get into the ELOs where like everyone is like going super try hard with like triple support like bullshit, there's like a whole bunch of tanks that just don't work. Like, I think Thor is in the same category. Like when people are just like hyper optimized playing like Dino Emma, like all the all the like the hyper like meta characters, like
CaptainCoach (48:55.055)
I think Thor's bottom three too, by the way. I is that why you're disagreeing, is because I'm saying Thor's not. I think Thor's also bottom. It's probably Hulk, Thor, Angela right now.
Coach Mills (48:58.625)
Wa war
Well they they s they suffer from the same problem. Like they suffer from the same problem, which is like they just die. Like they just literally blow up. When people like shoot you, they just you just die, right? yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a pretty big problem. Yeah, no, no, no, no, like I I agree with that. It's like it's just hard I don't know. T Tan's are hard for me 'cause like like I think we we kind of all agree that like yeah, like like Penny is like super niche, but then there's like fucking a penny player like rank one right now. but like yeah, but like they don't really fit
CaptainCoach (49:09.743)
That's a pretty big problem for a tank.
CaptainCoach (49:26.115)
Penny's OP. That character's OP.
Coach Mills (49:30.849)
in the meta but they just like can kinda work. like I don't I don't even know how to process that character but
CaptainCoach (49:36.547)
Any changes to nerf pool? How you feel about Cap right now?
Nerfpool (49:38.478)
I I mean, look, the you guys brought up something which is very true, which is certain tanks are just so difficult to play and enjoy in solo queue, which is where I typically live. I don't duo. I can't tell you the pain I've gone through to be a cap main since season one all the way to now and learned a character and just go through that. I want to learn Hulk a lot more. I think I've I heard Captain Coach talk about his philosophy of Hulk.
Which is kinda like a bouncer at the front, just swatting people off and doing what you need to do. And I've tried that and it's enjoyable. But I agree it's super dependable on your team. And my teams are a little special. So I'd love to pick up and play but it feels like I'm throwing. You know what I mean? It just and I and it's it's a high skill skill ceiling character. And no one works with you, and comms are impossible in solo queue and in lower ranks. So it's just like I might as well just play Magneto and nut on cloak and dagger's forehead with a with a ult so.
CaptainCoach (50:32.489)
yeah. Yeah. Hulk is really bad in the lower ranks. So then he's really bad in like the highest, highest ranks. He's really good in like the upper middle ranks. That's like where Hulk's like good where people actually communicate but don't just like know how to hard counter you. But I yeah, I like I like what it like there are some comps, like with Hulk specifically, where you could just pick and like it it's really, really good. And that's it's such a c like like kind of why I want you know, stacking again. So I gotta, you know, people of all means of different heroes could start just
Coach Mills (50:40.951)
Right. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (51:02.489)
playing whatever comp they want and getting it together. But other
Coach Mills (51:05.497)
Triple triple stack. All right. Let's let's let's move on to the duels. There's a lot to talk about here. I'm not gonna lie, this is gonna be really hard for those of you who are listening at home. So the first character we're gonna talk about is is black cat. If you can't see the screen, I'm gonna try to summarize this these changes in the best way I can, but there is a lot of fucking changes to Black Cat. They removed one of the charges to her primarily primary mob mobility ability, like her, her, her main dash. They removed one of the charges. So it was two charges.
Nerfpool (51:11.213)
Jesus.
Coach Mills (51:35.298)
It took 10 seconds to build. Now it's one charge and it takes eight seconds to build, which is like a huge cap to her potential like movement overall. Like when she tries to set up for a dive, it's about like how much she can put into a dive. And now you know now she she can only do it once, right? her Phantom Pursuit, which is the intangible ability, is just five less damage on that one. a lot of her fortune abilities cost more. the crystal.
The ring, the fish, they're all 300. the fortune cost for the orb, the flame orb that lets them see through see things. That is 300, which is from hundred 100 to 300. And now it can't reveal things behind objects. So, like, I mean, like a whole bunch of these are just like completely useless or very difficult to buy. And then the ultimate now, the dash distance goes down from 60 meters to 40 meters. it doesn't completely reset.
Now it adds three seconds onto the onto the remaining time, but there is a maximum of ten seconds. So it cannot go forever. So you're not gonna see those like those infinite lasting black cat ults. Right. Yeah. also the second hit damage on the ultimate, the percentage damage got got removed. So now you're not doing 180 damage to to 600 HP tanks anymore. You're only doing a hundred and
CaptainCoach (52:40.661)
Octa kills.
Coach Mills (52:59.917)
during the ultimate with that second the the two slashes. which is one of the problems also with her ultimate because not only could she can continue the whole thing, but she could just literally just kill tanks. I mean I I'm sure each of y'all have Yeah. You're You're also getting less fortune from three to two hundred. So she can't completely run through your team. If she is running through your team with her ultimate like a tank can get in the way and like we're not gonna just die to her. Like if we have full HP in all of our cooldowns, like we would legitimately just die to this fucker.
CaptainCoach (53:09.123)
Yeah. This is the this is the best Yeah, this is the best change for for there's a lot, but this is the best part right here.
Coach Mills (53:29.675)
hero in her ultimate because of this because of her percentage damage you know I was I was I was tuning into Lightstream he talked about it a lot like the f the orb which is like the thing you use to see through walls it's like hard to even justify buying that anymore I mean you can't use it through through walls anymore so it's like you have to put it in the open it costs 300 which is a lot and people can just shoot it so like it's hard it's just hard to justify
Like this is probably one of the most severe nerfs to a character that I think we've ever seen. Like this takes a care like this is a like a huge they nerfed her in many ways all over the place. how do you how do you feel? How do you feel about Captain Coach? What do you what are you thinking?
CaptainCoach (54:16.301)
Well, I I was seeing a lot of complaints about the way they went about nerfing her because you're lowering the skill ceiling. But I I do think the way they're changing her. I mean, I don't play her. I'm just kind of trying to get my like best interpretation of it is like you'll actually have to make a choice now when you're spending your coins. But it seems like they balance the coins in such a way where the choice is gonna be obvious most of the time. So it's not gonna be really be a choice. And I think that's the issue. I might be wrong, but
Obviously the character needed nerfs. I I do like they what they did with the ultimate. the cost and everything. I and then the d the double dash two I think was also good. But everything else I'm probably not the right person to ask. But overall I mean like obviously she needed nerfs. I th I I think she'll probably be balanced, actually.
Coach Mills (54:59.545)
Wha w what do you think, Imp? What do you th what do what are your thoughts on it?
imperator (55:03.893)
See as as as someone who is well versed in the flankly blessed universe, you know, as I have a few friends who like to play black cats, these these nerves are like the worst possible nerves they could have done. Like they have no clue what they're doing. like I I'm sorry, like they didn't take any they took away skill expression from black cat, okay? Let me you why. The the the the the like the
Coach Mills (55:10.445)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (55:18.361)
I'm
CaptainCoach (55:18.904)
Right.
imperator (55:30.207)
The how do I say this? The eights part of Black Cat isn't like her having two dashes. Or okay, her damage on the ult might be a bit overtuned, but the her her annoying part is that she's able to infinitely go into the shop and use invisibility and iframes. Do you guys see that nerfed? No. It's it's still a thing. She can still go invisibility without cooldown. The shop there's no there's no cooldown on it.
CaptainCoach (55:43.855)
Airframes, yeah. No.
Coach Mills (55:48.089)
I mean
Coach Mills (55:51.972)
Well w w which which ability is the invisibility? Isn't it the which one of the isn't it let me let me look. I I'm pretty sure that that's one of the ones that the cost got
CaptainCoach (55:58.734)
I thought yeah, I I s I assume the cost went up for that.
imperator (55:59.182)
I never learned the names.
imperator (56:04.685)
Chernobylks Crystal is like I I don't ring up Zona as the TP. Mental fish is like the the grounded. Yeah, let's without the shop. Let's wait about the shop.
Coach Mills (56:11.256)
where's where's all the goddamn
Nerfpool (56:11.736)
But the execution of it is the same. She just disappears. It's just makes no sense.
imperator (56:16.055)
Helm of Hades, it's Helm of Hades. Yeah, so Helm of Hades hasn't gotten unchanged. You can still go infinitely invisible. The iframes, which one is that? The ones that give you iframes?
Coach Mills (56:17.657)
Helmut Hades, okay, yeah.
Coach Mills (56:23.993)
yeah, she sh that that's that's an ability that hasn't knocked on gotten it got it's five less damage. It's five less damage, yeah, here.
imperator (56:29.003)
Yeah. So Yeah, so she can still go invisible, permanently without a cooldown. So that that legit that skillless part is still overtuned. they decided to nerf her actual skill expression if it's just having two dashes and relying on your movements, and they just killed like a a big part of her kit. Like if you want to actually nerf Black Cat, make it so that the iframe dash doesn't give any goal back.
CaptainCoach (56:48.324)
Yeah.
imperator (56:56.117)
It costs three hundred instead of one fifty and increases cooldown a bit. Make it so that you when you buy an item from the shop, your shop goes on a cooldown and you can't instantly go back to the shop to go invisible again and again and again. Make it so that don't take the walls of the orb, like the wall hex of the orb, but instead make the orb more expensive and put the orb on a fifteen second or ten second cooldown. Like don't take away skill expression and decision making. Just make it so that it's more risk, but you get the same reward instead of like actually killing a hero.
CaptainCoach (57:22.937)
Well wouldn't I wouldn't like removing the two dashes though force you to use your coins on like other meth like other mobilities? So I I think there is a Yeah, like so i wouldn't you say that you just have to like you're kinda like forced in the way you have to use your abilities now a bit more imp like you're more limited? Like and I think there's still skill expression there.
Coach Mills (57:30.659)
Yeah, no, it that that's a big that's a huge nerf. Removing a dash is a is a massive nerf. It's it's huge.
imperator (57:43.17)
Y you yeah, you're more limited in your in your kit. Like you're more limited in your kit. Like there's like you have like rely way more on the shop now. And like the shop they're they're forcing you to like use the invisibility more and you like use the eye frames like which is like a more skillless expression. Like there's not much skill expression like spamming the shop and going invisible and you're like using your iframes. Like it's it's cooler to like go in dash dash and like use your like mobility and like reward people that like put like time into the kit, you know? Like if you want to nerf like black cat like first, like instead of like
CaptainCoach (58:06.243)
I get what you're saying.
Yeah.
imperator (58:13.077)
An entire like this is gonna be for an entire season. Like unless they do a hot fix. Like instead of like doing a like a manifesto of huge nerves that are gonna kill a character, start little by little. So nerf the shop, add a cooldown, make the items that are broken, the invisibility iframes, like the wall hex more expensive and give them a like slightly longer cooldown the others. Start with that, see how our win rate goes. Is our win rate still dominant? Quick one week hold fix. Boom. We're nerfing her damage on this and that. Like we can't just instantly like cut her.
Coach Mills (58:16.505)
Yeah. Yeah, no.
Coach Mills (58:37.561)
See I d I d see the my I don't I don't think I really agree with you, Imp. Like I I do understand that like die players are mad. I know Light's mad, I know Necris is probably mad, like people are mad. I like the opposite approach. I wish they would do this more, where they just fucking kill a character and then they can do the reverse, which is let's give them back things, let's add things, let's buff things instead of the nickel and dime approach, which they've seemed to do with every fucking character, and then
We're we'll talk about Gambit in a bit. That's what they've been doing with Gambit. They just keep slightly nerfing him. But it no no he's he's not different. He's not different. But that's what you're asking for is small changes. What if it's not enough? What if it's not enough?
imperator (59:11.605)
No Gambit is different. No no Gambit is different. No no no no gambit is different. Gabin different. Gambit is different. Gambit is different you can you can no no no
Nerfpool (59:19.022)
Mom, Dad, stop fighting. Gosh.
imperator (59:20.137)
No, no, no, no. Gambit is not different. No, no gambit is not different. Gambit is like is like s it's like invisible woman. Okay, Gambit is like invisible woman. Invisible woman was like disgustingly broken.
Coach Mills (59:26.989)
Like I don't care about skill expression. Like this character's but this character is disgustingly broken on live right now. Like completely disgustingly broken.
imperator (59:32.565)
No, no, but well, no, no. Invis, Invis, Invis was disgustingly broken. What do they do with Invis? They give her self-shield 50% 50 less HP instead of nerfing her direct damage and direct healing. Gambit was like broken for so long, and instead of nerfing his ult, they nerf his damage on like by like five on like the card's splash damage. They nerf it by five, like.
Coach Mills (59:42.049)
No, no, I agree, yeah.
Coach Mills (59:49.048)
Yeah, but what if they did this instead? What if the first nerf they did to Gambit was just like, fuck your damage, fuck your old, fuck this, fuck that, and then people were like, they ruined my character. It's like, well, at least it's not a permaband character. And then we can buff him back. No, I'm just saying it was like this, where it's just like a wall of text. Like a whole bunch of shit.
imperator (59:59.438)
If the first nerf to Gambit was as ult if the first nerf to Gambit was as ult, it would have been good. If the first you don't need a wall of tax for Gambit, though. If the first nerf to Gambit was movement speed, cut in half. Damage boost, cut in half. Like if you cut his literally in half and make it cost more, then it would have been fine. Black Cat, they didn't target the most broken abilities. The most broken abilities are her shop infinite resets.
Coach Mills (01:00:15.917)
Yeah, I mean they
Coach Mills (01:00:21.581)
Yeah, it's she's st she's still really bad though. Like this really makes her a lot weaker.
imperator (01:00:25.643)
Yeah, th th this is bad, but like they made her bad in the wrong way. Like they made her bad like isn't it in like like like you c
Coach Mills (01:00:28.767)
It's I mean b i is she permaband or is she not permaband? Is is she running my lobbies or is she not? Like it I don't think like I I get what you're talking about. Yeah, which is I think is I think is fine. I think that's good.
imperator (01:00:35.681)
But she's she's unplayable, unplayable now. Like if you if you killed her shop, if you killed her shop, if you killed her shop, which like the most annoying part because she like permanently goes invisible, then you force people to like play their kit more right. You can't fuck like if you d you have to like maybe save your dash instead of using both. Because you use both and use your infinite shop resets. But now you might have to save a dash to go out instead of having to like rely on your invisibility. Like now people just will just rely more on visibility and it's like gonna be more annoying to kill a black cat.
Coach Mills (01:01:01.079)
No, no, I'm like like I agree, like the character needs like like she's gonna be terrible and they didn't nerf her the right way, but I like I just think that it's better that they did this than like I don't fucking know. Like what if they only nerfed Phantom Pursuit by like instead of seventy five they brought it down to fifty, that's all they did. And it's like, yeah, y'all don't you don't like the y'all yeah, but that this is why like I don't think that this I think this is actually reasonable. what do you Captain Coach? How do you feel about this? Do you think
imperator (01:01:18.622)
Well that is just stupid, that's just stupid, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:01:27.123)
D do you think the way that they nerf things matter, or do you think it's more important about the severity of the nerf? Like how what's your thought thoughts on it?
CaptainCoach (01:01:33.356)
Yeah, I mean you don't want to encourage playstyles that are annoying to go against. I mean, but it's at the same like okay, I mean we're gonna get to Daredevil here in a second. And I'd rather them, yeah, like you said, I'm kinda in your boat, Mills. Like just just nerf a hero than figure it out. 'Cause you know, the longer a hero is in the game, especially one as complex as this, the people are going to continually get better. so yeah, I mean like obviously I think you wanna keep skill expression in the game though. Like
Obviously. So if a if a black cat player says that I I pr I or someone who plays with black cat then I'm gonna agree with imp ultimately. But I I this character needed nerfs and needed nerfs now, so I'm kinda glad that we just don't have to worry about it for a little bit, you know, 'cause there's just so many other like busted characters right now.
Coach Mills (01:02:01.274)
I mean, yeah, we both agree on that, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:02:18.103)
I I I guess if they're gonna miss the mark no matter what, like if they're gonna either try to nerf it and then like nerf it wrong and like not the important things and the character's still really busted, or they like try to nerf it like this and they nerf it wrong and it just ruins the character's identity. I would rather this than that. Like I would rather this than what they did with the hotfix to Elsa. Like 'cause you know remember they when they hotfixed Elsa like a week after she came out and it just didn't do anything, the character was still busted. Like I just don't think we could run through another half season of
CaptainCoach (01:02:46.545)
I agree.
Coach Mills (01:02:46.743)
this character just being permaban worthy.
Nerfpool (01:02:49.537)
Just the nerves clash to design of the character. The character, like she feel I played her lot, you know, as much as I could and as she came out. She's gonna feel completely different with this. It's almost like I'm pigeonholed down a specific way to play her. So from just a complete like I don't care about the numbers necessarily. I just care about the way that, you know, she feels. She was design-wise, I think, supposed to be a super creative character with lots of tools, teleports and going through walls and all that kind of stuff. Now, I don't know, I need to test it myself, but it just feels like.
My options are limited. So what's the point of designing a hyper creative character and then limiting their options? That that's the part that I'm I'm wrestling with.
Coach Mills (01:03:24.825)
That That is a good point. I think it would make more sense to instead of making everything so much more expensive, like you could weaken the effects of things. but like people get to do them more. You know, like like 'cause because imagine if it like faded, you know, like after like six seconds or something, or like the shield didn't like they could do they could do a ton of different things to it. I d I do agree. Like it it is stupid that
CaptainCoach (01:03:39.703)
Only half of our body's invisible. Yeah. The fact that it's instant is so stupid, by the way. It should fade.
Nerfpool (01:03:44.621)
Well, so I wanna bring up yeah, exactly. That's the problem. Yeah.
I'll rage for 30 seconds about it. Every character that disappears into this game has two things that that disappearance follows: an audio cue and a visual cue. When Cloak fades, you can see her floating around like a little fart. When Psylock fades, there's a little moth or butterfly, whatever the hell. You can kind of follow her if you have eyes. This one just disappears. They don't even know where she which direction she went, nothing, even Invisible Woman.
Coach Mills (01:04:17.849)
Yeah, and if you hit her, she still goes back to being invisible. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:04:21.229)
Yeah, so it's like that's the piece and like I I thought my computer was glitching when I first saw it 'cause she was just think she was gone.
CaptainCoach (01:04:26.745)
Yeah. It it does make you like it triggers that sense and you know, 'cause you just you just poof, gone. At least Silac has the yeah, right, right. No sound either. It's just like I don't even hear. Yeah. Maybe there is a sound, I don't know, but
Coach Mills (01:04:26.849)
It does it actually looks like a glitch, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:04:32.697)
Yeah. It was like, did it disconnect?
Coach Mills (01:04:41.289)
Well So I guess we'll see on this character whether or not they're gonna revert things if they're eventually buffer. Maybe they'll just like, you know, let a couple seasons pass by where people forget and then they'll like just revert everything like they've been doing. I don't fucking know. I don't know.
CaptainCoach (01:04:50.905)
Just or you know, she's in the gulag right now. Then all of a sudden one of the black cat players figures out some new way to play with her. Like like Bruce Wayne from like the Dark Knight Rises climbing out of the pit. Like one of the black there's like all of a sudden there's a top five hundred black cat that's just like running lobbies. Let's see how they're playing. wait, like like that's you gotta let it happen organically to an extent, you know? So but
Coach Mills (01:05:03.859)
Okay.
Coach Mills (01:05:12.929)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:05:17.163)
Okay, let's let's talk about Blade. this character that has seemingly been buffed like seven times and is still terrible. This character, now the unstoppable after the Scarlet Shroud, which is his block, now it it's one second instead of point four seconds. So you could actually fully stop like a CC. and it's it's like the window is much larger. With the sword stance, the initial hit with the Daywalker dash goes up from twenty to thirty, and the damage per spin goes from eight to ten.
So it's in total increased damage of fifty two to seventy.
CaptainCoach (01:05:48.942)
my god, we got we got we went from plus one every pl patch to plus two. Let's go double the buff.
Coach Mills (01:05:51.482)
So so AMP, tell us about this new emerging blade meta that we're about to run into, right?
imperator (01:05:53.365)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:05:54.063)
Zoo Young, relax.
imperator (01:06:01.771)
I skip blade buffs. Every time I read patch notes and I blades now, I just skip it. No matter what you do to that hero, it's never gonna be meta. That hero needs a rework. It it has probably been like I in in like the history of gaming, out of any like I don't know if it's for overwatch, but like out of any League of Legends or like World of Warcraft class, League Hero, any hero ever released, I don't think b any hero comes close to being as bad as Blades. Like the entire kit, the entire design is terrible on Blade. Like no matter what they do to this hero until they rework him.
Coach Mills (01:06:03.321)
Ha ha ha
CaptainCoach (01:06:04.367)
Ha ha ha
Nerfpool (01:06:05.082)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:06:07.434)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:06:08.778)
Ha ha.
Nerfpool (01:06:09.242)
That guy.
imperator (01:06:31.891)
no matter how many times they buff him, like unless they make his sword like the same fucking length as his like gun, like the range of it, like he's not gonna be a good hero. Like he'll never be a good hero no matter t no matter how many times you buff him. You have to rework him.
Coach Mills (01:06:46.969)
Yeah, I mean I genuinely agree. I d I I I've I mean I've talked about this so much. It's just like characters that don't have burst damage are just like useless. Like in in general. They're just useless. He just doesn't have burst. Like this is not burst damage. Like burst damage is like a bucky shooting you twice in the head and you die. Or like a gene lighting you on fire or like a daredevil burst. Like this is just not burst. It's just like
CaptainCoach (01:07:06.039)
Yeah. There's just too much mobility in the game. Like I d this hero's so easy to avoid and just like you just blow up and
Coach Mills (01:07:10.933)
It the the way that he's designed could work as a tank. Like if they changed him completely, but it would never I don't think it will ever work as a DPS unless you like turn his stats to something fucking insane. Like give him five hundred HP and then he is a tank though. What am I talking about? Like, I don't know.
Nerfpool (01:07:27.664)
Yeah, I don't think I don't think it matters what they do to him. The could have been the coolest it doesn't ma it doesn't matter whether they brought him or nerf him, like the they could have made him the coolest character in the game. And then when the trailer came out first and like his music was playing with the old charge and I was like my the Marvel fanboy made was like, Hell yeah. And then the execution was just piss poor and I think he just needs to be reworked from the ground up. I agree.
Coach Mills (01:07:31.186)
It's it's so funny they just keep puffing it but it doesn't matter.
Coach Mills (01:07:51.202)
Alright, fuck it. Alright, fuck it. Give him on his on his pistol dash and on his ul give it a hundred percent. A hundred percent anti anti heal. Let's go. that'd just fucking break the game, but I I don't I don't know. I don't like I don't know. I like
CaptainCoach (01:07:51.5)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:08:01.531)
He also feels clunky. He's supposed to be mobile it's just I don't know. Doesn't work.
Coach Mills (01:08:06.617)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's let's move on from that. you know, F2 here. All right, let's talk about Daredevil. So these are the big changes to Daredevil. So the radar sense, which is his ability to see people through walls. it's down from fifty meters to forty meters, so he can't see people quite as far away. the targeting of his sonic pursuit is now twelve meters instead of twenty meters, so he could target people, but he has be closer to that person in order to target them. And his objection, which is his deflect,
That is now one point two seconds instead of one point five. Very long deflect. So so yeah, overall you know, Imp, you have some a lot of strong opinions about dive. What do you think about Daredevil and these changes?
imperator (01:08:50.017)
And the first the first one is like doesn't really matter that much, the radar sense. Like you're not gonna you just get a bit closer, it's fine, you can still utilize it properly. The dash targeting distance is Sonic Pursuit is like the F right? Where it gets the movement speed. The
Coach Mills (01:09:06.105)
E well, yeah, it's like like the pinging of somebody and then the and then like yeah, and then and and then dashing on them onto them. Yeah.
imperator (01:09:10.177)
Yeah, the ping of someone. That that one is like
That one is a bit you're you're gonna feel that as a Daredevil player, but the objection one is like that one hurts a little bit to Daredevil's kit. Daredevil is like how'd I say this? Daredevil is a hero that somehow got balanced for the lower rank players. let me answer like this. When you play Daredevil on release, you had Devil's Chain, you had Devil's
nonchucks or whatever it's called. I forgot the devil I forgot the other one. It's devil's chains and like the the throw what what? Devil's throw, yeah. So back then devil's chain did more damage than devil's throw. a bit more. And you actually have to aim devil's chain properly because if you hit it too far, it does no damage. If you hit it too close, it does no damage. But if you hit it right it does good amounts of damage. So that's the skill expression of Daredevil. Instead of nerfing the the devil's throw
Coach Mills (01:09:46.691)
Devil's throw, I think. I think it's devil's throw. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:09:49.924)
Billy Clubs.
Coach Mills (01:10:02.689)
Right. Right on the X, right? Yeah, yeah.
imperator (01:10:13.217)
They decided to nerf Devil's Chain not once but like two times. And they let the throw be as it is. So now you have Daredevil players like running around brainlessly, just spamming E right click, E right click during their combos, and it doesn't take any skill. There's n you don't have to aim anything. So instead of nerfing like the part that's like making Daredevil actually like annoying, kinda and like low skill, which is like just E right click, E right click, they're nerfing other things, right? But I wish they would have just made Daredevil like actually skill expression. Because Daredevil on release was way more skill expression. You would just have chain combos, like
Crazy combos with which very like a precise aim. But now you just have people like spamming chains on the walls, on the ground, and it doesn't take any skill. If you know what I mean.
Nerfpool (01:10:51.824)
I agree, we need a diver that's more complex. I I I c I wouldn't have access to him, right? But I I always I never played Daredevil that much, but I assume that's what he was like. And now he's saying that, you he's a bit spammy now. I want one
imperator (01:10:55.159)
Yeah.
imperator (01:11:03.661)
You can pick him up. You can pick him up and you can get to GM. You can get to GM easily. Within a week of practicing the air level, you can get to GM easily. Just go on the back line, press E and spam right. E right click, E right-click, and deflect and then go out. That's literally what the hero has become. Like back then he was actually skilled. Like you have to be pinpoint precise with your chain. If you mess up your chain, your dive value is zero. If you hit your chain, your dive is successful. Now you just E-right click and your dive is successful either way. Like there's no there's no
Nerfpool (01:11:08.44)
Even moi?
Coach Mills (01:11:09.166)
Well
CaptainCoach (01:11:14.383)
no.
Coach Mills (01:11:16.279)
I I yeah.
imperator (01:11:32.009)
setbacks or like risk anymore to diving as they're the ball.
Coach Mills (01:11:33.677)
I mean I mean r I mean, I don't wanna completely glorify release Daredevil. That character was completely broken, like in half on release. He was completely broken in half.
imperator (01:11:41.889)
Yeah, but because his his his e if you remember his E right click was bugged. His devil's throw was bugged on the release. You remember it could go bounce on the wall and bounce back?
Coach Mills (01:11:47.683)
Didn't he didn't he also get like more sustained too? Like he got more shields and more sustain. And he had higher health too.
imperator (01:11:51.648)
Yeah, he he got more suspend more damage reduction on his F, yeah. But the the biggest problem was his devil's throw. When you threw it, it could bounce on the wall to the target and bounce back on the wall and back on the target. So it did twice the damage, the devil's throw.
Coach Mills (01:12:02.232)
Mm. so that's how he did the like the he did like the insta the insta the insta stuff. Yeah, the the flash combos. Right. My my my problem though, like with this character is not with like the average person spamming EF EF. Like my problem is with this character with people that actually reach towards the skill ceiling, which is like like y i i even in the in the case of like you have to aim the X, like I don't care if this character is harder to play, people are gonna be there. Like people are gonna just be able to do it. Like, I mean
imperator (01:12:06.169)
Yeah yeah yeah. Like that got nerfed but like they still kept the damage high of double stroke and like they nerfed the chain over and over.
Coach Mills (01:12:31.639)
You know, like anyone that's above celestial in eternity, whatever, they're gonna able to do it. They're still gonna w kick our ass with the character. Like regardless of it's if he's harder or easier. You might think he's too easy right now, but I mean I mean he's still
imperator (01:12:43.307)
Yeah, if i I mean if they make him a bit harder, like like well it's gonna be way harder if you have to aim the chain, like rather than like just spamming E right click, then you're gonna have less people like playing him properly, like more people failing their dives, you know? Like it's gonna be a bit more easier to play against and punish against like bad deadable players, 'cause now you can have bad dead of players still getting value. Give him a cap or give him a venom or give him a hulk even, let him jump in with him and like give him a bubble and like he just spam e right click and they have value.
Coach Mills (01:12:53.421)
That's fair. Yeah.
Right. I yeah.
Coach Mills (01:13:02.689)
Yeah. He just e yeah. I mean I like the objection change. I kinda wish that was even more severe. I I that d I've always thought his deflect is just ridiculous. 'Cause it it's it's not it's not a deflect in a traditional sense. It's literally just a a shield. It's like a cap shield. I mean it it blocks everything. Name more ults, beams. it doesn't matter what it is. Like I I I know that y'all come from League of Legends, but I come from Overwatch. My most played character is Genji. I played like
CaptainCoach (01:13:19.076)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:13:30.979)
four thousand, five thousand hours of G. And his deflect was very short and there are things that can still do damage to you through it. Any beam can still do damage to you through it. So like and the hitbox was really small. So you have to be very careful. Like you have to be very deliberate with it. And I just don't feel like you have to be deliberate with objection at all.
CaptainCoach (01:13:47.193)
Daredevil can deflect a giant whale coming from above him. Can deflect any.
Coach Mills (01:13:50.989)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:13:51.57)
Yeah. Let's let's get 'cause this first of all, this change on the radar senses, it's gonna very much improve improve my blindness role play, so that's great. But like he should reflect projectiles maybe back at the person direct well, I guess he kinda does that already, but like a beam or anything like that. That doesn't make sense. It's it's billy clubs, man. It's little sticks. How's that gonna deflect the whole magneto meatball? Ridiculous.
Coach Mills (01:14:05.687)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:14:10.201)
but my general takeaway for Daredevil was that he he kinda got a slap on the wrist in comparison to Black Cat. I mean Black Cat got really fucking hit and Daredevil was like, Yeah, we're good we're he's f he's fine, you know. He he's still gonna be probably best diver. I mean, we'll now he's definitely gonna be best diver because Black Cat is not gonna be best diver anymore, right?
CaptainCoach (01:14:30.891)
Light light predicted he's gonna be B
Nerfpool (01:14:34.342)
God.
Coach Mills (01:14:34.637)
No bro, no, no, no, no, no. If I if we actually talked to Light, he would be like, that's just propaganda. He fucking knows it's that's just no possible way in a in a in a meta where where cap and venom are still gonna be this strong that Daredevil's gonna be B tier. Like, are we are we trolling here? No, no, no. No, no. He's still gonna be S. He's gonna be he's gonna be top three.
imperator (01:14:50.129)
At least A. At least A. There's the fact that it didn't change his right click, h h his his his his devil's throw is not his devil's throw has not changed like minimum A plus. If you no no no on on on his own on his own A. On his own A. If you give him a diver S plus.
Nerfpool (01:14:52.944)
He's A.
Coach Mills (01:14:57.387)
It not nothing chang yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:15:02.781)
yeah yeah yeah yeah. that's fair. Okay, I I'll I'll I'll agree with that. Okay, Elsa. Let's talk about Elsa. Elsa got now the to charge her her her blocks to to dash faster or dash more on a on a faster cooldown, now that's increased. So she's gonna be able to get to max charge faster than she did before. by I don't even know what the percentage is. It's about thirty percent.
no no no, it's about fifty percent faster. what do what do y'all think about Elsebuffs?
CaptainCoach (01:15:35.095)
It's a lot.
CaptainCoach (01:15:39.77)
Tank players, just ban this hero. Just don't think about it. You don't need to listen to the changes. If you play tank, just ban this hero and then just move go on with your day. That's it. That's the change. Like this is gonna be so miserable to play. Like Elsa's already pretty good. Like I I and this is yeah, she's gonna be with in her lower cooldown form. Just like I they're gonna be playing so aggro. They're gonna like I feel like you're just gonna like almost like frontline on her. Like you could you could it's like she's she's gonna be so stupid. I hate this hero.
Coach Mills (01:15:42.185)
Yeah
Coach Mills (01:15:54.369)
Yeah, she was she is very good actually. She's ki yeah.
Coach Mills (01:16:08.343)
I mean she's not gonna be anywhere near as strong as she was before 'cause like even at max she doesn't get it every two seconds, she gets it every four seconds, like her dash. But like the problem is this character's just like her ultimate is so fucking busted. I swear this character her ultimate is so good. Like i it just if you increase her neutral like this, now she just gets to be more effective through more the game and then she just has these ults that just win the game on the spot. Like, I don't know. What it w any thoughts, Imperator on on Elsa?
imperator (01:16:37.857)
I hate her. I hate her. I hate her. I I I I don't know what I thought I thought there was gonna be a com compensation nerf for this buff. Like it's really gonna nerve something if like when they're when they're making like the most broken part of her kit like like buffing like the mobility, like no but no, there's no changes.
Coach Mills (01:16:38.531)
Nicker.
Nerfpool (01:16:39.014)
Yeah, same man.
Coach Mills (01:16:45.017)
Well yeah the the the I if they if they compensated this with like an like an old nerf like maybe an old charge nerf or something like that I would be cool with that but not this what the fuck is this?
CaptainCoach (01:16:56.873)
I'd be okay with that.
imperator (01:17:03.733)
Been saying like since the release of Elsa, like I don't know, like it just makes the most sense for me. Like the best nerf they could do for ult is if you send out Glartrox, he comes out fast, right? But the more people he takes, the slower he gets. And then when you call him back, he's still there's like the same slow. Like, why would you why would you have him the same speed at Mach 5?
CaptainCoach (01:17:15.983)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Mills (01:17:18.049)
Coach Mills (01:17:21.977)
Yeah That's that's a good point. And then it's like it doesn't matter. Well, it's weird because if you get a if you well if you get a big one Yeah. Well well well the thing is that that could in some cases be a buff though. Like to to pull slower. 'Cause you get to you get to shoot them longer.
CaptainCoach (01:17:23.129)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:17:23.324)
Is he strong?
imperator (01:17:30.177)
No no way this guy no way the Gladros grab Mega Hulk like still be the same speed. Like this doesn't make sense.
CaptainCoach (01:17:36.879)
Yeah.
imperator (01:17:41.323)
No because because because then No, because then you you remember like the old the got nerfed, like it's only three seconds max and then they get released. So like now they they won't go as far into your team.
Nerfpool (01:17:42.258)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:17:42.479)
No, I don't think so.
Coach Mills (01:17:48.405)
N yeah yeah I was say I was yeah yeah okay. I gotcha gotcha. Yeah yeah that's a point. Okay. I see, I see.
CaptainCoach (01:17:54.062)
Yeah, and and while we're on it, I mean when I'm in a Jeff mouth, he should be fat and slow. If he's got like five p picture fat Jeff.
Coach Mills (01:17:59.854)
Thank you. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:18:00.947)
A Hulk in his mouth? Yeah, I think it should slow down a little bit. I don't know why they're buffing her, man. I th she is very annoying to play against. She's very easy to get value on in the lower ranks. She punishes d divers a lot 'cause it's just so easy to do that little pirouette thing.
imperator (01:18:01.038)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:18:06.071)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:18:16.665)
She's good in the lower ranks? Is that just 'cause everybody everybody plays like brawl stuff?
Nerfpool (01:18:20.516)
Yeah. I mean I I think from I tried her out just to understand how she works so I can counter her. Two things that make her really annoying. That thing where she can I think she dashes into you and then jumps up and shoots you again. Like that's so easy to land, even for someone that's not mechanically skilled. And that's really punishing and it does a lot of damage. So if I'm a cap or god forbid a regular diver, she can really mess you up. And then the second thing is all the overshields. Like a lot of times they try to take her out and just overshields for no reason.
Coach Mills (01:18:34.489)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:18:47.459)
Yeah yeah, it's stupid, yeah.
Nerfpool (01:18:50.694)
So that's where it messes me up.
Coach Mills (01:18:51.573)
Yeah. I I still love the overshield power creep in this game where like originally it was just Bucky and people were like, fuck this hero. How how can you get overshields for doing nothing? And then they've just like they're like, you know what? Let's give it to fucking every hero. Every hero gets overshield just for existing. I can't I I I haven't even seen Cyclops does? I didn't even see that.
Nerfpool (01:19:06.268)
I saw Cyclops get it too. Yeah, if you if you watch it, he just does ding ding and then his help does this. Like, why? What are you doing? Yeah. Might as well.
Coach Mills (01:19:14.955)
Of course he gets over. Why wouldn't he get over shield? I mean if he didn't he'd be terrible because every fucking character has it. we'll talk about Cyclops at the at the end. We're we're we're we're kinda nearing the the end of it. okay, human torch. Now his his slam cooldown is going down from twenty to fifteen seconds. And the plasma body, which is the you know, his dash, that is going from ten to eight seconds. I'm gonna start with you, Nerfpool. how do you feel about these pretty I think pretty sizable torch changes? How how do you how do you feel?
Nerfpool (01:19:44.819)
Torch has not existed in the low ranks for a very long time, even when he was really good in the high ranks. Like a lot of times I would watch tier lists and everybody would be like, Torch is great, banned Torch. I wouldn't even see him in the lower ranks. One, because he's a flyer. Two, because people can't aim with well, can't aim. And three, because it's a project. It's like it sprays. So that means that people need to get close. But in in low ranks minds, that doesn't make any sense. Like I want to be snipe you sniping you from the sky. So
He hasn't existed for a long time. I don't know if this is gonna do anything. Like he's been nerfed into the ground. He's completely not existed. So he doesn't exist below Grandmaster, I think. I just I never see torches. I never I see more widows. Well, people throw a lot. But you know. Nope.
Coach Mills (01:20:19.583)
Okay, but it might it might not. It might not do anything for Lo Elo.
Coach Mills (01:20:27.821)
Yeah. Yeah, supports don't look up on unfortunately. They don't look up. I I look I I I'll give my opinion on this. I think that this is actually a pretty insane buff to Torch. twenty seconds on his slam is a long fucking time. Reducing that by five is gonna be felt. more chart like more dashes is gonna be felt. I think like
Really good torch players are gonna be absolutely cracked with this change. I don't know about everyone else though. Like I don't know if this is enough to make like like random people just start picking up torch. What do what do you you think, Imp? You think it's gonna push that? You don't think so?
Nerfpool (01:21:03.621)
No.
imperator (01:21:08.299)
Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Torch. Torch is like Torch is like too much movement. Like you need to like permanently fly around moving. The APM to play Torch is way too high. Like besides that, and the fact that he is like a projectile hero, l not projectile, but like projectile slash hit scan almost. Combining the fact that you have to like have good movement, good aim, good positioning, and like good lineups for your thing, and like it's just so complic. It's a it's a it's a really complicated hero. And like
Coach Mills (01:21:18.083)
Yeah, all right.
imperator (01:21:37.833)
old Torch was way easier to play and to pilot than like the current torch with all like the melee tech and like everything. Like I don't think he's gonna be dominant in like the the ranks from like bronze to like GM. Maybe like the OTPs are gonna utilize it slightly better, his cooldowns, but like I don't think he's gonna be meta in any at all.
CaptainCoach (01:21:58.274)
I think higher rank torches will be pretty scary. I've seen a few. 'cause they'd they'll just be able to be aggressive way more 'cause like that dash, the meteor, they a lot of them will use it just to run away because it gives you a shield and stuff. So they'll just use it to harass, play aggressive, play aggressive, and then just like you there's a lot of ways you'll be able to play torch now, I feel like, with like how much uptime you're gonna have and how quickly you're gonna get your ult. But yeah, I agree. Like I don't think in lower ranks this will really do too much, but
Coach Mills (01:22:27.297)
I I do like how they change that they're changing Torch. Like this his identity is not of just like a sit back and spam. Not really. Not with these. Like more energizer, more slams. Like he's kind of like what I imagined for Torch a long time ago. Not fully there, but like he's in the fight more. He's moving around. I've been watching Mikey play Torch and he's like he's like almost a pseudo diver. He's like in and out and in and out, you know. He's not like
CaptainCoach (01:22:35.256)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:22:54.733)
Like the the Ultron Voltron strategy of just sitting back, I just don't really think that th that's really enabled with these changes, which is I think nice. It's nice.
CaptainCoach (01:23:03.375)
Yeah, they're definitely encouraging him to go like a little different route than the other flyers, which is good. I th I I think they should just keep going in this direction and maybe even kinda make him him like less techie. 'Cause yeah, like the yeah, the movement you need just for any flyer, like it's just so much APM.
Coach Mills (01:23:19.319)
Yeah. And I think there's like a I know that there's some people that got really mad when they removed the movement tech from Torch and then like they remove the melee tech from Cap. I think that when it comes to a lot of these characters that require what Imp's talking about, which is like constant proper timing, constant good positioning, like you don't really need to have a tech for a tech's sake if the tech is just repeat the tech over and over and over again. Like we can balance the character around not doing the tech, like
If if the tech is I just need to repeat these same things to do the movement tech nonstop, like we don't need to have this movement tech in place when we can give him more movement, more slam cooldowns, and he just gets to reposition more. Like the skill expressions in the kit. We don't need the skill expression in this like thing that we just like s button spam yet the button spam this like over and over again to get like I I I I like that. I I think it's a good change. Like general like a good philosophy change. But but like I I I do know that some people like
care more about the power level, so I get that. okay, let's let's let's move on. okay, so Moon Knight. Moon Knight's primary damage goes down from twenty-five to twenty-three. The Moonblade damage, which is his alternate fire, goes down from eighty to seventy. now the damage that it's gonna do while it bounces between enemies and onks now is gonna be less when it's bouncing to multiple targets. So it's gonna go from eighty percent to seventy percent.
Pretty re like pretty big changes to Moon Knight across the board. I'm gonna go back to you, Nerfpool, because I think Moon Knight definitely is very common most likely, in in in a lot of lower ranks. What do you how do you feel about this? Do you think this is a good change overall or how do you feel?
Nerfpool (01:24:50.845)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:24:55.825)
I think it's fine. i he's not busted in the lower ranks, but he's very accessible. And if you if you wanna game the system and, you know, get a lot of damage in, you could do that. I don't know th I think this is just a modest, you know, a little bit reduction just to make him a little easier to deal with. Maybe charge his ult a lot slower. But in the lower ranks his ult usage isn't really meticulous. They they just kind of just pop it when it's available and
Coach Mills (01:25:23.787)
Just the just throw it, right? Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:25:25.383)
They just want to go to Moon and they type it in chat, because that's that's what you do. fine. All good. I think he's real easy to deal with for me, especially if I have a Moon Knight that's really cracked, I would just go hella and headshot him twice, and that's kind of what I do. But I think it's I think it's a nice little change, a little easier to deal with. Won't kill the character, but yeah, he's very popular in the lower ranks and he's honestly very fun to play. So fine, whatever.
Coach Mills (01:25:50.361)
What do you what do you what do you all guys think? Any thoughts on on Moon Knight?
CaptainCoach (01:25:53.434)
They need to go down the list of every DPS hero in the game and do these changes for every DPS hero. Just lower the damage across the board.
Nerfpool (01:25:59.615)
Kinda yeah, I actually do agree. Yeah. Why not?
CaptainCoach (01:26:04.609)
I I think these are the exactly like I more changes like this, please. I think damage in the game is obnoxious. And then that it's causing the healing to have to be too obnoxious. And then you can basically like sustain DPS heroes just through the amount of passive healing like like they were a tank if they just get pocketed. There's like a lot of things that the damage was just lower, I feel like the game would feel a lot better.
Coach Mills (01:26:09.273)
That's a good that's a good point.
Coach Mills (01:26:27.701)
I'm really happy to see here that they just nerfed his damage like in three different ways and I didn't see yeah, his ultimate is twenty percent cheaper too. Cause they've done that a lot where they're just like, yeah, let's just compensate. I'm glad that they didn't. Like make ultimates more expensive. Like they're ultimates, right? Like any strong opinions, imp?
CaptainCoach (01:26:37.903)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:26:42.356)
Yeah.
imperator (01:26:48.237)
not really. I think I think Moon Knight like Moon Knight got shown how strong he was mostly because of Dino. Because the more people play Dino, the more people play Grut, like as a counter or try to counter Dino with Grut. And the more value Moon Knight gets. Like Moon Knight gets insanely fast of Dino and other beefy tanks that are played in Dino matchups. So I think people saw how big of a problem Moon Knight's damage was when Dino started being played. So I'm not gonna say the nerf was deserved, I'm not gonna say it was undeserved. I think like
Coach Mills (01:27:17.517)
It is it is funny that he's kind of he's he's paying for dinosaurs. It's like kinda funny. Yeah, it's funny. Namor. Namor is this is a pretty small buff, but when you're hitting his primary, now his his squids are gonna be up slightly more from one per one second cooldown reduction to one point three. Not a major change, but it is gonna make Namor slightly better.
imperator (01:27:17.651)
Every
imperator (01:27:23.689)
Yeah, yeah, he's yeah, he's kinda thing for dinosaurs.
Coach Mills (01:27:46.81)
I know we just had Trust Me on the pod the other day and he was saying that Namor is like really, really bad in pro play. 'cause he doesn't really he doesn't really have like a way to get out and he doesn't he doesn't really stop dive in the way that you would think, like coordinated dive. Yeah, I don't know. I I've I've kind of always like slightly hated Namor. but I don't think that like he he's a problem or anything. Like this doesn't even make him like one of the top five best DPS in the game. but I don't think it's bad. Like
imperator (01:28:15.093)
It's a nice buff. It's a nice buff. I can give you the maths. usu now it takes six auto attacks to get a squid back. With this buff it o will only take four attacks to get a squid back. Four primaries. So instead of having to shoot someone six times, you shoot them four times and you get one squid back. So over the long run it's it's way more squids over the long run.
Coach Mills (01:28:16.398)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:28:31.137)
Okay. That's actually that that should yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:28:36.281)
So you think you'll just s what like hit tanks and kind of like
imperator (01:28:39.201)
He'll he'll become he'll become a to balloon's tower defense hero. Like he'll just like start patting off tanks and just spam squids in the back line, shoot supports, start padding tanks, shoot supports, throw squids in the line. It's gonna be more annoying to play against.
Coach Mills (01:28:42.209)
Ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:28:45.571)
Right.
CaptainCoach (01:28:50.905)
Do you think this would what do you think, Mills? Do you think this would actually like make better in pro too? 'Cause it's like a more it's just more. Is this all it is?
Coach Mills (01:28:51.032)
Interesting.
Coach Mills (01:28:59.039)
It's more, but i he just doesn't like I don't think it's a meaningful enough change to like move the needle. Especially like w the you're talking to trust me like like Poke doesn't really even is not even really seeing all that much play. Like if if Gene Gray is struggling a little bit to see play, then like Namor is definitely not. Like, you know, like 'cause the the the power gap between those characters. Now that might change with some of these changes, especially the changes to Black Cat and
CaptainCoach (01:29:13.934)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:29:26.595)
The changes to dyno, so maybe the meta will change as a whole, but I from my understanding, you know, like with Cab being so strong in pro play, Venom being so strong in pro play, like I just don't think we're moving away from a dive meta in pro play at all. And if if we're in a dive meta, like I don't I don't think Namor has a place. Like I know that that seems weird for people listening in. Like, no, we're in a dive meta. Namor definitely has a place. No, like Cap, Venom, Daredevil going three two one and jumping a backline.
give no fucks about your two squids. Like they just don't care. Like like at all. and most yeah, yeah. That was but yeah, they d and unfortunately they don't care and sometimes they just jump you. You go into your bubble and then they jump you again and you're dead. I mean like unfortunately. But he's gonna be much better for rank play, which is cool. I mean we still have the Hella Namor team up which I think is still really good. yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:29:58.328)
Mm-hmm.
CaptainCoach (01:30:02.073)
Three squids now.
Nerfpool (01:30:03.971)
Ha.
Coach Mills (01:30:25.945)
Probably probably fine.
Nerfpool (01:30:26.389)
Any change to no more is good. Any any improvement is and I also don't I I I like that the community, at least in the lower ranks, has been improving their Nemours a little bit, not just using him as an anti-dive thing. I've seen a lot more flanking no more and people that are just kind of more creative with them. I think he's an extremely well designed character because he's very punishable. Like you can remove the squids if you intend to. You can bait his escape out and then kill him. And or he can, you know, float to a really nice place and kite back. Like I think it's
Beautifully designed character, the more they give him. Like this is a slight little change, which is really nice. I think it's I think it's really good. I want to see more in the Moors. I think he's really fun to play against and I think he's really fun to play as a you know, if you play him too. So more squids.
Coach Mills (01:31:07.541)
Yeah. Cap if you wanted to make this character good against like hard dive and pro play, you'd have to make his like bubble cool down like six seconds. So like he could he like like similar to how Invis can like you there's no cycle to kill Invis. It's like the same thing. Like there's no cycle to kill Namor. Because you bait it out and he has it again. Like that's that's his that's his problem is that if you bait out his bubble, he actually it can die. He is like unfortunately the Right. Alright, this is a big one. Phoenix.
CaptainCoach (01:31:21.164)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:31:28.463)
There's a set of cooldowns you can get in. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:31:35.16)
There is w when when Captain Coach has been, you know, begging and pleading and you know sacrificing a goat to see some actual nurse to this fucking character. So this is what they did. ten the healing over time when detonating your sparks is down from ten seconds, ten ten per second to five per second, half. now the maximum damage fall off at thirty meters goes down from seventy-five percent to sixty-five percent.
CaptainCoach (01:31:40.569)
Mm-hmm.
Nerfpool (01:31:43.583)
Dude.
Coach Mills (01:32:00.75)
So the distance to KO a two hundred fifty HP enemy with two critical hits is shortened from eighteen meters to sixty meters. At maximum fall off, the single hit damage is reduced from forty five to thirty nine, and the number of hits required to KO a two hundred and fifty HP enemy is increased from five to six. so they, you know, heavily are nerfing her range, her burst damage, and her healing over time. what are your thoughts, Cap? What do you think?
CaptainCoach (01:32:27.359)
Hey, I'm all for Phoenix nerf. So the the healing over time, that's I think it lasts for four seconds. So it's a twenty in total for that. yeah. I mean they could have honestly just removed it.
Coach Mills (01:32:35.097)
Instead of forty, yeah. That's
Coach Mills (01:32:40.249)
But it but the theming, bro, the theming, the theming, it's it's Phoenix, it's the theme.
Nerfpool (01:32:42.281)
I didn't know she had it.
CaptainCoach (01:32:45.207)
Yeah. Okay, make it one one heal per second then. Like like but that's that's fine or whatever. That's a good nerf. I don't yeah, I don't know why she even has the healing. The damage fall off too, I I kinda like the damage fall off change a little bit 'cause it it is kind of more a nerf to like higher rank players, I feel like. 'Cause lower like like you're like 'cause that's been I think their issue with Phoenix, if you want to look at it, is that her you know, she has hit scan at the end of the she does
Coach Mills (01:32:56.855)
Ha ha ha.
CaptainCoach (01:33:12.793)
take skill to aim and I think in the lower ranks they got numbers saying that she's really, really bad. So they've been trying to f and then that's what you know why the last patch they tried to take a look at her like AoE one shot combo. I I it was weird. I I I do think this like this will be felt, but I think she'll still be pretty annoying to play against for anyone wondering. And yeah, I think they'll probably just play a little closer up. but for the most part you're I don't think you're gonna really notice too much. I I don't know.
Coach Mills (01:33:20.729)
Right. Right. Right.
CaptainCoach (01:33:42.605)
I don't think this is like a massive nerf or anything. It's decent though.
Coach Mills (01:33:45.209)
What do what do you think, Ib?
Coach Mills (01:33:50.201)
But Jean.
imperator (01:33:50.272)
Great great nerfs. I I love these nerfs. the healing nerf especially, I like that one because that one is gonna give her less survivability on off angles, meaning Phoenix is gonna be a bit more killable on off angles, which she's really annoying on anyways. And the damage fall off is Yeah, yeah. And and the damage nerf is terrific. Like that's what's don't know why it got buffed in the first place. No idea why it got buffed in the first place, but like amazing that it's back to its original state, so.
Coach Mills (01:34:04.075)
And she has to play closer on those angles too, so
Coach Mills (01:34:12.931)
Ha ha ha.
imperator (01:34:19.147)
The healing the healing earth is really nice as well. So
CaptainCoach (01:34:20.655)
Yeah, but you're I don't even think you're gonna notice the damage nerfs in in like a lot of situations. Like times you would have not died, you're still gonna not die, but it'll be annoying to have to heal through. But times where you're up close, you're still gonna like do a shitload of damage. Like I I don't know. I don't think it's it's gonna help, sure. I don't think it's like gonna do too much, though. I think you'll still ban this hero. The the the the healing is yeah, I agree with like the off off angles, but I think sh they'll still just play play main choke a lot of the time and just like poke war shoot. I don't know.
imperator (01:34:24.629)
Mm-hmm.
Nerfpool (01:34:48.361)
Yeah, this is a this is a typical net easner.
imperator (01:34:49.101)
Yeah, I mean they could have nerfed the damage more, but yeah, it's it's a
Coach Mills (01:34:51.565)
That the typical netty's there. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:34:53.181)
It's like, we'll touch her. We did something. We're done. But it's like in reality, like this is not gonna affect the lower ranks whatsoever. Like they're still gonna do whatever they're gonna do. And in the higher ranks, okay, maybe you play a little closer, do more damage. But like that doesn't change the fundamental w workflow of the character, right?
imperator (01:35:01.899)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:35:03.797)
it is
imperator (01:35:07.073)
Just just just give it three kids. Just to give it three kids instead of two. From like sixteen meters. Instead of like it's so easy to hit double credential on Phoenix, like
CaptainCoach (01:35:12.75)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:35:14.324)
I don't know.
CaptainCoach (01:35:17.079)
Mills, do you think this is a PR change? Or do you think it's actual
Coach Mills (01:35:17.579)
Yeah I I think these are real nerfs. Like the they're they're definitely gonna be felt, but it's it's like it's it's like a small, small nerf. I don't even think it removes her from S tier. Like it it might move shift her in S tier slightly, but it doesn't remove her. And I I I can understand people being really pissed off about Black Cat when they're like, Why does Black Cat get that treatment when Phoenix gets this? Like like what is this coddled child that doesn't get any like like
There have been many times in the past like five seas four seasons or whatever that Phoenix could have just gotten completely gutted and it would have been completely fine with like ninety five percent of the player base would be like, Yeah. But now she's still just here and like it doesn't I mean we'll get to Star Lord and Gambit in a bit, but I I these these changes pissed me off because they're not enough to really
Move anything. Like they don't fucking matter. They don't they don't move the needle on a on a character. This character's not A tier. This character's not B tier. This character's still fucking S tier. She's probably still a top three DPS. And she's been a top three DPS for how long?
imperator (01:36:23.373)
I mean these nerves are just like wait so like the way like I I had this in my head since like season five is like you know okay the deep the hit scans there's a certain island okay I'm not gonna say which island but you guys know what island I'm talking about okay and on that island on that island there's there's there's five
Coach Mills (01:36:36.121)
Say it! Say it!
Nerfpool (01:36:37.546)
Do tell.
Does it does it rhyme with Rammstein?
Coach Mills (01:36:43.609)
okay.
CaptainCoach (01:36:44.673)
imperator (01:36:45.035)
Maybe. On that island there's five DPSs. On that certain island there's five DPS. Silock, Star Lord, Elsa, Phoenix, and Hella. Okay? All the Sorry, Star did I say Star Lord as well? Okay. All those five DPS are broken. But which one is cycled in Meta depends on which all of them are good. But the there's always one that's like super broken, one or two that's super broken. And the one that's played the most
Coach Mills (01:36:47.225)
Staten Island No, I'm just kidding.
Coach Mills (01:36:59.841)
Yeah. Uh-huh.
CaptainCoach (01:36:59.993)
Mm-hmm.
imperator (01:37:14.623)
It's just cycle through on which one is getting nerfed. So imagine a season where Psiloq got hit with nerfs. Then we saw Phoenix being played more. Phoenix got hit with nerfs. We saw Hala being played more. Elsa got released. Elsa got went to the top of the island. Top of the f she was she was the ringleader of the island when Elsa was released. And those other four are still really good. They're still strong. But Elsa is too strong that she's being played over all of those heroes. So when Elsa gets nerfed, and Phoenix now gets nerfed.
Coach Mills (01:37:41.209)
She's the leader of the island.
imperator (01:37:43.436)
The other the other DPS go to the top of the island. So now you Starlord and Silock probably being played more. And if Silo gets buffed, then we see Silock being played more than anyone else because Silock is already strong and she got hit with buffs again. You know? That's how the high island hierarchy works. Yep. Yep. It's always those five DPS, always.
CaptainCoach (01:37:55.578)
Cut off a head of the Hydra. Two grow back. They this DPS just keep coming, man. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:37:57.819)
Yeah, too.
I do you I wonder if Netes is just afraid of going away from like you know, they could go away from those five, like heavily nerf all five, but the problem is I think they they're kind of crutching on aim as like a natural skill curve like creator, right? Like l you know, if if a character requires aim like those five do, they're not gonna be dominant in the low elos. So like that that's why I I'm not saying they should do this. I'm just saying that's like the only justification I can see that they are
you know, like because like the basically what you would have to do is you would have to make those characters bad in high elo, which means they're unplayable. Like all five of them would be unplayable in low elo if if those characters are are even remotely bad in high elo because of the you know the aim skill curve. and then like it's also kind of like you know, Pandora's box. You're like opening it, like what's what's the next if those five characters, let's just say they like completed gutadum, what are the next most five broken characters that would like pop up?
Like what would what what meta would we be? It'd be the fucking Wild West. So what is it? Name more. Like you know, like that's what I'm talking about is like now you don't have control of your game anymore. Like you don't know like like you don't know what's going on. You're you're lost. I'm I think that would be really fun.
imperator (01:39:03.305)
Namor Magic Iron Man Spider Man
CaptainCoach (01:39:04.429)
Name more Bucky Spider Man, Spider Man.
Nerfpool (01:39:07.584)
How does
Nerfpool (01:39:14.698)
And how does this affect affect console? That's what I'm wondering about it, because apparently the majority of the player base is on console. So these guys must be like they're not even touching her in low elo. Now there's even less reason to do it. So I'm wondering I'm always trying to not forget about the console players and think of how that impacts them. It's like she must be nonexistent there.
Coach Mills (01:39:26.477)
Yeah, I mean.
CaptainCoach (01:39:28.331)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:39:32.983)
Nope, she's not.
CaptainCoach (01:39:33.251)
Sometimes I wish I was a console player, just to be able to play Mr Fantastic all I want. I'd enjoy that. yeah. Maybe. Maybe one of these days, Mills, we'll do like a console duo to
Coach Mills (01:39:37.293)
Let's go. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:39:37.75)
Get stretchy, baby.
Coach Mills (01:39:45.515)
I'm fucking down. Can we be drunk while we do it? I would be that sounds great. Alright, Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:39:49.498)
That's yeah, that's a prerequisite. You guys can come too.
Coach Mills (01:39:57.458)
okay. Hey, hey, hey, stream hey, I hey according to according to the the reigning champion, stream sniping and other things are completely allowed. So my I yeah, you know, Smurfing's on the bottom tier of that list, you know what I'm saying? Like so you know it it it's all it's it's either all allowed or it's not. Okay. Okay, all right, all right.
CaptainCoach (01:40:04.911)
CaptainCoach (01:40:14.937)
For drunk is it really smurfing?
Coach Mills (01:40:21.603)
I'm gonna get a a little heated on this change because basically so what they're doing here is they are adjusting the maximum damage fall off at twenty five meters to sixty-five percent to fifty percent for Star Lord. So they're nerfing Star Lord's damage fall off from further distances. This is why I'm fucking tilted, and I I referenced this earlier where it's like they just fucking buffed Gene and Star Lord a patch ago.
They buffed these fucking characters. When they buffed these characters, they were S and A tier. You could argue that Starlock was already S tier, but you know, he was a top six DPS in the game. And then they buffed him. And now they're back to fucking nerfing him. So my thing is, why are we buffing heroes just to nerf them? They did this a lot, like a lot with Sai. Like, I don't understand why they do this, where they just like, character is really strong. Let's buff it. shit, people are mad. Okay, let's nerf it. It's like, what are we doing here? What the fuck are we like?
Can someone can someone give me some clarity here? Like, I don't understand this shit at all.
Nerfpool (01:41:20.407)
So you can buff them. So you can nerf him and then buff That's why. That's why. Come on, man, you know.
imperator (01:41:21.249)
They don't know what they're doing.
CaptainCoach (01:41:22.581)
I have a theory on it.
Coach Mills (01:41:23.177)
Okay that changes, let's go. Okay.
imperator (01:41:27.317)
Is this even a nerf though? I I on you're close range anyways with Star Lord 'cause you wanna full clip them. I don't want to send the point. This is like a placebo nerf.
CaptainCoach (01:41:32.013)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:41:32.535)
Yeah, it's it's yeah. It's just to build old charger. Wait, is this the optics nerf? Do you think this is an optics nerf's gap?
CaptainCoach (01:41:35.979)
I I can tell you what they're
CaptainCoach (01:41:42.019)
a little bit. It well they're they're trying to I think you saw it with with Dino, you saw it with a couple different heroes, I think Phoenix a little bit, where they're trying to push certain characters into like a more niche, like specific playstyle so it's easier to balance them, is what I think they're doing. So they're in they they're telling Star Lords like, Hey, don't play back, play closer up.
So they can get like better data and and act like if if they make characters gameplay loop like more obvious and and like you know you i they're to be able to actually like balance around it better.
Coach Mills (01:42:13.745)
I see. So d don't don't give them like we're not giving people complete freedom of choice. We're saying like this is the optimum way to play the character, play the character this way, type thing. Is what you're saying? Kind of? and they're encouraging it with balance.
CaptainCoach (01:42:25.439)
Yeah, well they're they're also Yeah, yeah. I mean obviously Star Lord is still gonna be like super overpowered. Like he's still gonna be super broken, but I'm sure like somewhere on their team they're they've they're they're they've tracked situations or whatever where Star Lord's just able to sit back, shoot, and still actually be pretty effective. So if they push him towards like a certain playstyle, make him actually have to be aggressive to make plays and and get kills, like there there must be some damage threshold they're looking at.
Coach Mills (01:42:52.235)
It it does it does take away like his blade bot play style a little bit, like just a little bit. Or or like his old bot, yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:42:56.141)
Yeah. Well he doesn't have that option now. And and and and their thought more or less, I think, is okay, now the Starload doesn't have that option, let's see how he does. Like let's see how good he is. And it he's it's gonna still be pretty good. But I think that's the idea behind it, if to answer your gripe with buff nerf, buff nerf. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:43:10.624)
Yeah Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:43:16.269)
Right. I mean they st they still didn't like like the the Star Lord Gambit combo is still like disgustingly broken and it's gonna keep being disgustedly broken. Like I don't really understand why they I I like I just don't understand any like I don't understand any of this. I I I we run into this every time we look at the passion list. I just don't understand what they're thinking. Yeah, yeah, I don't
CaptainCoach (01:43:26.961)
yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:43:36.697)
Frustrating. He's still be he's he's still like S plus in my opinion. Like I don't think this really does much. But
Coach Mills (01:43:42.7)
Yeah. okay, let's let's talk about some strategists real quick. so okay, so first this is a simple one we can get through quickly. Adam, his cosmic cluster, when it hits enemies, you're gonna reduce the cooldown on his E, his his little heal. from point four eight seconds to point six seconds. It's a pretty small buff, but it is noticeable. What do you what do you think, imp? Any any anything? you do?
Nerfpool (01:43:47.553)
Yo.
imperator (01:44:08.449)
I mean I I play with I play with only legs on my MRC team, so yeah. This they just keep buffing Adam. Like the last buff as well was like for his right click to give his healing charge. They might as well just like give make it so like you cast your right click, if it hits someone, you reset your heal. Because like this is like going down that path, okay? Like you you're gonna send Adam to a flank, this guy's gonna be literally immortal. This guy's literally gonna be immortal.
Coach Mills (01:44:11.426)
you do? Wait, no, I watched that shit. I watched a little bit of that shit. man, he's at yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:44:11.567)
Mm-hmm.
CaptainCoach (01:44:27.001)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:44:27.648)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:44:32.687)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:44:32.833)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
imperator (01:44:34.217)
Send Adam with whatever flanker you have, they're gonna be immortal. If he just has his has his right click ready.
CaptainCoach (01:44:38.571)
I yeah, I mean I was watching Mike the other day who spawn camping people and wanna bubble an at him, first week support player. I'm like, what are we doing? Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:44:41.529)
No, he he's actually the most broken one v wonner in the game because if if he has soulbond, he can't die. It's also kind of funny how like there's like these there's like a group of characters that are like they're all fighting for like best in slot triple support character. and it's like when one's bad, another one's good. It's like, you know, it's Ultra on this this patch, no, now it's Adam. no, now it's Loki, this now it's you know, it's always just like I mean w yeah.
Nerfpool (01:44:47.627)
Yes.
CaptainCoach (01:45:09.935)
And that's gotta be their reasoning for buffing him because nothing else makes sense. Nothing else like because he's all the healers are S tier, like I swear, like they're all so good, but it just doesn't seem that way because you have to have like a certain number of them on your team. You can't just have all healers, but you definitely need them. And I think their reasoning for Adam is like he gets picked in incorrect comps so frequently that they're probably just using the wrong data to justify buffing him.
Coach Mills (01:45:12.311)
Yeah.
imperator (01:45:15.093)
Ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:45:31.609)
That's actually a great point that like his win rate is probably fucking massive in triple support. Like it's probably insane. But like every fucking random atom that I get on my team is just a DPS player LARPing. Like that's like they're they're not they did they're just the yeah. I like I swear it's it's it's like Jesus. okay. all right, cloak and dagger.
CaptainCoach (01:45:41.416)
it's probably obnoxious.
CaptainCoach (01:45:48.463)
I hate I hate Adams so much. I hate them. I dude I I don't think there's a player I dislike more than Adams.
Nerfpool (01:45:48.77)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:46:01.665)
So, TLDR of the changes to Cloak and Dagger. If you hit someone with your primary and you hit them directly, it does this exact same thing as before, but the AoE of your primary, because yes, there is AoE on your primary heal, it does more to people nearby. So that's the first part of the change. And I think that lowers the skill floor of this character, but also just buffs the character straight up, more heals. and then there's also a heal like a boot boost ratio of the healing from the wall the wall.
From fi fifteen percent to twenty percent. I knew they were gonna fucking buff this character. Like dad like they th there's no way that they yeah, they were definitely gonna buff this fucking character. what do you think, Nerfpool? How do you feel about Cloak and Dagger being ev even stronger and easier to play?
CaptainCoach (01:46:36.911)
It's pretty obvious. Yeah. It's pretty obvious.
Nerfpool (01:46:43.98)
Sick of her. She's she is the character the support in lower Elo. And it's I just gotta say this with my whole chest. It's not you against the world. It's the world against you, bitch. I hate this character. I'm so I'm so PTSD'd from just me trying to do anything. It's us against the world. I hate this character. Why would you reduce the skill ceiling on a frickin' auto aim? It's just get rid of her. Give Adam more stuff.
Coach Mills (01:46:52.865)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:46:58.067)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:46:59.724)
Ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:47:11.455)
Yeah, they they actually did it. Like, why did they do that? They they literally made this easy character easier, by the way. Like that's what they did.
Nerfpool (01:47:14.552)
What are you doing? No.
CaptainCoach (01:47:16.127)
Mm.
Nerfpool (01:47:18.828)
Yeah, great. Awesome. Hey, maybe maybe give you know, I don't know, I don't like this. Just nerfer and changer. I'm just sick of the same team comp there. No, no, in the beginning of the of the game, people were complaining a lot about Luna Loki and seeing the same stuff all over again. That's cloak and dagger in Lower Elo. I wanna see more variety in the supports. C Cap is completely right. They're all broken, but Lower Elo doesn't know how to use that to their advantage. And I wanna see more variety there, like use more of them.
Enough of this one.
Coach Mills (01:47:50.745)
What do you think imp? What do you think about Cloak and Dagger genderbuff? Gunhurt?
imperator (01:47:52.439)
Gun her down. Stab her and gun her down.
Nerfpool (01:47:56.385)
Hell yeah.
imperator (01:47:58.198)
Like death death death to Cloak. Like I I this this hero doesn't deserve to be meta anymore. Like I don't know about it making her easier to play as well. Like she's already like brain dead, headless chicken piloted. Like my like could literally like I could Adam res my grandma, she could pilot cloak within two days. This this hero doesn't deserve any meta anymore. Like we've had four seasons of cloak. We've had four seasons of cloak. I don't want another cloak season.
Coach Mills (01:48:00.152)
That the cloak.
Nerfpool (01:48:01.28)
And dagger.
Coach Mills (01:48:08.577)
Okay.
Coach Mills (01:48:16.097)
Alright. I'm bringing on Kaji. Where's Kaji at? I need him. I need I need Kaji. No like Yeah, what I a hundred percent agree. Like I wish that Netti's agreed. Like if a character is good for too long, make them bad. Like it's fine. Like a character doesn't need to be meta for fucking the entire life cycle of a game. I
CaptainCoach (01:48:26.937)
She's gotta be one of their most popular characters.
CaptainCoach (01:48:39.843)
I mean, I have a theory. Yeah, yeah. Listen, this is a great time.
imperator (01:48:41.441)
She sells the most skins, bro. She sells the most skins. What can we do? What can we do?
Coach Mills (01:48:43.033)
Hey, hey, hey, hey. There's there's bikini skins of of Cloak and Dagger coming out, by the way. There are. Bikini skids. Yeah. And Dar Daredevil was also getting skids, by the way.
Nerfpool (01:48:43.127)
That's that's exactly what it is. You saw the guner stuff.
imperator (01:48:50.197)
Yes, yes, they need to buff any every character gets a Bo they have it they have I'm telling you, they have a highly advanced Chinese psychological team studying the skin saying, Okay, this skin is gonna make so much fucking money. Jiong buff this hero so vi the people are gonna buy the skins and then when people bought the skins, nerfed the hero the season after. It's so fucking annoying.
CaptainCoach (01:48:52.153)
No guys
This is actually something
Coach Mills (01:49:08.579)
Yeah, well y
Coach Mills (01:49:12.887)
All I'm say So so what you're saying is in nine point Like th this this this will tell me if they do or don't. I if if
Nerfpool (01:49:14.657)
Make them goonier, make sure they bend over in really interesting ways.
imperator (01:49:18.773)
No nine but they're close to getting nerfed. Any any big skins that are coming out and heroes are getting buffed now, next season they gotta get nerfed.
Coach Mills (01:49:25.027)
Well I'm I I think if in nine point they have hella buffs, I'll I'll I'll believe it. I'll believe it 'cause they're they're coming out with a hello bikini skin. If if if in nine point they have hella buffs, I'll be like I'll be like, all right, y'all might be right.
imperator (01:49:34.497)
They yeah, nine but those gonna have elabors. It is gonna have elabors, I guarantee you.
CaptainCoach (01:49:38.445)
This is a a theory l that I've been actively working on. I'm I'm so glad we're talking about it right now because I was going to unveil it today. This whole phenomenon you described, Imp, it's called goon creep. Okay. We for it's not power creep, it's goon creep. Cloak and dagger gets buffed because of skins. And and it it's been it's real, it's been and it's been happening since the start, and it's premeditated. And until we do something about it and and stand up.
Coach Mills (01:49:51.619)
Coon creep Coon Creep
Nerfpool (01:49:52.889)
Goon creep I picked the wrong name.
CaptainCoach (01:50:05.743)
'Cause obviously cloak and dagger's popular says most skins. You the nail on the head. we're gonna keep experiencing Goon Creep like this. Getting heroes getting
imperator (01:50:10.753)
We we can't, we can't, we can't kill Gooners. They came from Overwatch, they they were shunned out of the Overwatch community, they came to rivals and they've multiplied and multiplied and we have too much Gooners. We have more goon we have more Gooner infested godless people than than than normal people in the in in this community. So we're every time I remember it so fucking clearly. Invisible woman. She was meta and then her fucking wedding skin with fantastic release. She got another buff. She got another buff for no reason because of her wedding skin released.
Coach Mills (01:50:13.965)
Yeah. It's
Coach Mills (01:50:28.707)
Hey hey.
imperator (01:50:38.857)
Everyone bought that fucking wedding skin and the next season she got nerfed. It just it's so annoying.
Coach Mills (01:50:40.153)
Hey here here's here's here's the fucking strat, guys. You just need to main hot fucking characters. That's it. If you just main those characters, you'll always play the best characters in the game. That's it. Yeah, well yeah. Welcome to D tier, buddy. Get fucked. I'm right there with you. We're both playing the
Nerfpool (01:50:41.657)
But it's getting to it's getting it's
Nerfpool (01:50:54.073)
That's true.
CaptainCoach (01:50:54.207)
Not ready to take that leap yet.
CaptainCoach (01:50:59.555)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:50:59.683)
But it's arrivals is getting to a point where I feel embarrassed of what's on my screen. Like sometimes people walk in and I'm like, No, no, no, I'm not playing some weird game. It's okay. That that's a new thing. That wasn't there before. It's just getting a little creepy.
Coach Mills (01:51:09.454)
Never never be in never be in a never be embarrassed, bro. Never be embarrassed.
CaptainCoach (01:51:12.865)
I can't wait to tell my real life friends that I play a character with big breasts to get high rank in a video game. Can't wait.
Coach Mills (01:51:17.623)
That's it. That's it. Tell Tell There it is. Yeah. okay. So we gotta talk about Deadpool Strategist. So his bouncing bobblehead, which is this like little spinny top that heals. the spell field dam the spellfield healing got upped from forty second to fifty second for the standard. Upgraded is from fifty to fifty five. it's a pretty small buff to a character, but I do think that Sutpool ha is actually good already. what do you think?
CaptainCoach (01:51:21.465)
Hulk has big breasts actually, technically. Pecks. Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:51:23.065)
That's true. He's packing.
Coach Mills (01:51:47.523)
about this character. Seems kinda weird. Weird time to buff this character, but
CaptainCoach (01:51:48.611)
Doesn't need this.
CaptainCoach (01:51:53.123)
Doesn't need it.
А
Coach Mills (01:51:57.239)
What's what's up, it go on?
imperator (01:51:59.6)
wait I'm gonna close finish.
CaptainCoach (01:52:01.311)
yeah, I just the fact that this hero doesn't have a like a support alt support alt or support y support alt is he's always gonna like have bad win rate and he's always gonna be super OP in the higher ranks. And if they buff him like that, like I I think people are still figuring him out too. Like I think he's like kind of complex and hard. So I I just I just don't think he needs this. But yeah, go ahead and
imperator (01:52:19.313)
we have Necros actually plays support pool in our MRC team. We have played against Ignite teams from EU, some Ignite teams, and we have played against all MRC teams in EU. We haven't lost a single block. That's that's what I'm gonna say. We haven't lost a single block with support pool, triple support or even double support sometimes. This hero is the most broken support in the game. You enable everything, you have ult, you can have ult in as few as two, three seconds.
CaptainCoach (01:52:35.107)
There you go.
Coach Mills (01:52:35.5)
Yeah.
imperator (01:52:49.301)
You can have your ult use it and then hold your jackpot until seven seconds later and then boom have double or triple the healing. You have so much momentum you can get. I don't know why it's not being played as much. Like I I think the pros are like slow. Even though pros are supposed to like the best people at the game, I think they're slow when it comes to like adapting to meta. because this hero is insane. And the fact that they're buffing in in gun form, like the spell field and like the healing, any healing buff means Deadpool's gonna get levels faster, healer pool.
Coach Mills (01:53:02.615)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:53:03.711)
It
imperator (01:53:18.391)
Helipo's gonna get his he's his he's gonna get XP, he's gonna get more XP, he's gonna get upgrades faster, he's gonna be able to enable fights way faster, way quicker. So the fact that his hero got buffed after already being in a very strong position is crazy to me.
CaptainCoach (01:53:29.879)
Yeah. I'm glad you're saying this.
Coach Mills (01:53:30.841)
He has he has so much fucking damage. Like it's actually crazy. It the thing is, strategist pool gets to have none of the downsides that a pool would normally have, which is like the the the downside of like tank pool and especially D PS pool is like there's this big amount of downtime where you're underpowered early in the game. Because healing is just so much value early in the game and it helps you level in a passive way. You don't have to take risks. You're just you just become cracked so fast. Like like I I don't know. It's it it's
Yeah, I mean I don't I don't understand the buffs. Like I don't I don't just get it.
CaptainCoach (01:54:02.147)
How much does Necros how much is he is in is he in sword form like diving versus kinda like play him further back? Is it just when he has his cooldowns basically?
imperator (01:54:11.659)
We we're we we we just wait. We he has his he has his ult ready, like either him or Jimbo, like we he we we just go in. Like we pop our ult, we start moving forward, like when you pop the ult you can start moving forward. Cause then you're like not gonna take enough damage to die because the your supports healing and the healer pool like base healing from the ult is gonna be enough to like push forward. And then when like the
CaptainCoach (01:54:30.925)
You don't spread those out and do like one then the other and then like do like a longer fight, or is it just all at once just like full commit?
imperator (01:54:37.325)
What what do you mean? The the supports or
CaptainCoach (01:54:38.905)
Doesn't he have two he Deadpool has two heel pool has two AOE heals, right? Or am I am I
imperator (01:54:43.463)
you you can use the whatever I'm talking about I'm talking about the base ult. Like you can move forward with this base ult and it it it'll heal you. And then you can move forward. they can either react with cooldowns or react with another support ult, and we can hold that with other cooldowns, and then three, four seconds after their support ult, we can use our jackpot. And then we have eight seconds of like Luna ult healing levels. Like the the the healer pole, like we
CaptainCoach (01:55:05.358)
Right.
Coach Mills (01:55:05.933)
Yeah, and then and then he'll still have all of his cooldowns right afterwards too. Like he'll have his E and then yeah.
imperator (01:55:09.043)
Yeah, and we have still all coins right after. We have more swords and E up again. Like it's just so much healing, so much output, so much stalling. Like you can really like outplay the enemy backline with this. Like you have in it's an insane dive hero. It's the best hero to play with dive. Like you have you enable it so good. Damage boost, you damage boost you as well. Like I just forgot to mention that as well.
Nerfpool (01:55:10.157)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:55:15.684)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:55:23.713)
Yeah. No, I'm I'm glad you're saying this. This this info needs to get out. Like I'm telling you, this hero's broken.
Coach Mills (01:55:28.845)
Yeah, yeah yeah. Ner nerf pool, you need to pick up you need to pick up subpool 'cause it like it matches you, you know y your your brand, you know? It's perfect.
Nerfpool (01:55:30.659)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (01:55:36.939)
I think so. I thought about it too. And but it's I yeah, I think there's so many other characters that could have gotten a nerf for I don't know why they spent any dev power on making this change. Like I don't know what the point is. Like ev even low rank has that figured out for the most part. You know what I mean? Okay, maybe they can't aim and sometimes it's the healing is a little inconsistent, but it's okay. I don't get it.
Coach Mills (01:55:54.232)
Yeah I don't understand the buff, but okay. So we have three more changes to really quickly talk about. So Okay, we gotta talk about Gambit. So they his ultimate now the bonus damage multiplier goes down from twenty five to twenty percent. and the movement goes down from forty percent to thirty percent. I'm gonna I'm gonna go first here. this doesn't fucking make this character not
Just pick or ban. Like this character is still pick or ban. It doesn't really matter what they do to these numbers. They're always gonna be pick or ban because the character still gives you movement speed, gives you jump, gives you extra ult charge, cleanses, heals, i increases damage still, still has speed boost thirty percent. Like this care this it's it's fucking ridiculous that we've gotten this long and this character just constantly gets fucking tickled by the devs. Like he doesn't get any like real changes. And I mean
This is once again, he's still gonna be perma banned. It's not gonna change anything.
CaptainCoach (01:56:53.231)
And the
CaptainCoach (01:56:56.717)
And the damage amp one was another one that we were talking about that got reverted. It was twenty, then it got buffed to twenty five when they I forget what else they did and then that now they're putting it back down.
Coach Mills (01:57:05.049)
Yeah, 'cause they compensated this character that needed zero compensation. let's fucking kill. W
CaptainCoach (01:57:12.599)
Yeah. It's not enough. It it sh everything should just go down to like ten percent and then keep one thing high, like the movement speed maybe. I think would be like one that'd be cool. That I I like to jump too. Some people don't like the jump. I th I I think things like that are good, but
Coach Mills (01:57:26.101)
yeah. I'm I'm gonna keep re repeating the same idea that we brought up like, you know, a million podcasts ago, which is just having two sides, two modes, defensive and offensive. It would make this character it increases the skill expression, it would make this character not broken, because the broken part is the fact that it does everything. It's an ultimate that is good at any stage of the game, whether you're behind, you're you're behind almost dead in a Groot ult. Okay, it's still good to use. Or you're on the front foot, you're
Closing on the enemy team, you want to chase them down and kill them, it's good there too. Like it's literally always good whether you're about to lose, about to win, it can be comboed with a bazillion different characters, like like yeah. What what do you think, Imp? What what's your what's your thoughts on on on these changes?
imperator (01:58:09.953)
Gambit It's always gonna be meta. I I've given up. I since since two seasons ago, I've given up. Cause this guy this this this hero will never get nerfed properly. Every every time he's a slap on the wrist or a placebo nerf, he's never gonna nerf properly. You wanna nerf him properly? Since the star just and cut his ult in half. Make his ult cost like two thousand more, cut the movement speed in half, remove the damage amplifier, because the move having movement speed already is insanely disgusting. And being able to jump higher.
Coach Mills (01:58:21.305)
Yeah.
imperator (01:58:39.563)
They just don't know what to target. They're just scared. They're just scared of having a gambit be shit for one season. God forbid gambit be shit for one season. Because then people won't buy the rogue gambit matching skins. the E-daters won't be able to buy the rogue matching Gambit skins. They can't release they can't release the half naked hooded gambit skins with the rogue matching emotes and make a million dollars off a gambit. They can't unnerf Gambit. Cause cause people can't pay rogue.
Coach Mills (01:58:44.281)
Why?
CaptainCoach (01:58:50.223)
It's good creep. Good creep.
Coach Mills (01:58:50.561)
No no
Nerfpool (01:58:51.31)
There you go. I know it was coming. Yep. Goon creep.
Coach Mills (01:58:57.825)
CaptainCoach (01:59:03.161)
That's why Gambit's been OP is cause of Gooners.
Coach Mills (01:59:06.155)
Yeah, but ha my my my No So I'm I'm I'm coming around to y'all's goo the Guna Creep idea, but like I I I honestly think that this is still against No but but this is this is against the best interest though. No one can fucking play the character. Why am I gonna buy a gambit skin if I can never play the fucking character because he's banned every goddamn game? Like my g like like like l like
imperator (01:59:07.489)
People can't play fucking rogue. They're too ta they're too handless to play rogue, so they all have to rely on Gambit being the skin seller.
Nerfpool (01:59:07.854)
The V line.
CaptainCoach (01:59:10.319)
That's true. That makes sense.
CaptainCoach (01:59:18.403)
Beyond creep.
imperator (01:59:19.863)
What do you mean idea? The truth.
Nerfpool (01:59:21.37)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (01:59:21.549)
It is the truth.
Nerfpool (01:59:28.954)
Cause he's hot, man.
imperator (01:59:31.149)
'Cause they look at game data and win rate. They look at the game data and win rate. They see his
CaptainCoach (01:59:31.343)
Tanning Chate Channing Tatum.
Coach Mills (01:59:33.633)
Make him shit! Make him shit so I can run down as DPS Gambit in my games. I can't even do that. I can't do anything on this character.
Nerfpool (01:59:33.838)
Yeah.
imperator (01:59:40.056)
But they don't care about it. They care about the win rate and how much like how how hard he's stomping games. They cannot see that. They have they have they have a shit set of data because he's permanently banned. So they ca that's why they they they don't need they they're putting slab of the wrist nerves. If Gambit was actually played and they see how high his win rate actually is, then people will they'll be like, let's ban him hard. But they don't look at that. They don't look they don't look at the ban rate and how people like hate playing against it.
CaptainCoach (01:59:50.905)
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:00:00.975)
They got some higher up telling them that there's a new Gambit movie coming out in like a year or two with Channy Tat Channy Tatum, Coach Mills. Yeah, they're
Coach Mills (02:00:01.572)
But like last
Coach Mills (02:00:07.385)
no. My i the characters also my god, no, no what the what? Calm down, calm down.
Nerfpool (02:00:09.243)
I think it's in his contract.
imperator (02:00:10.155)
Yep. No no no no no. Gambit, fucking Brad Pitt as Gambit and Bonnie fucking blue as rogue. They yes. And sell the fucking Bonnie Blue fucking rogue skin. Sell the Bonnie Blue Rogue skin ASAP.
CaptainCoach (02:00:18.173)
CaptainCoach (02:00:24.185)
Go, go, go, go.
Coach Mills (02:00:28.193)
I I I actually I I I snuck into a high ELO lobby at some point last season. I think so it trust me was actually I I I looked back at this catch coach. I didn't realize it at the time. Trust me, it was in my lobby. like I snuck into a high ELO like last season at some point, and I just like I ended up filling as Gambit because it was a gambit lobby. The way that you had to play Gambit, like optimized Gambit, is boring as fuck. You can't take any risk. You can't be aggressive, you can't play make. Your entire thing is you just stay alive and ult. You're just a you're just an old bot.
If you go and take a risk and you die, you threw the game. So you so so no. Like they like I made one aggressive play, I got a trade, I died they bit they bitched to They're What the fuck are you doing though? Just stay in the back, play passive, conserve your cards, use them only when you're in threat of death and ult. That's your entire fucking purpose. So like they're limiting the design capabilities of this character by refusing to fucking address the ultimate of this character because he's literally just an old bot. That's literally his purpose. but yeah.
imperator (02:00:58.421)
Who
Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:01:25.185)
Yeah, I agree with you, but the hand I use for my mouse, I use it to win games, so it's a winning hand.
Nerfpool (02:01:34.883)
Mm.
Coach Mills (02:01:34.893)
Wait, what the fuck? Okay.
CaptainCoach (02:01:35.695)
I'm
imperator (02:01:36.663)
Gambit gambit was like that in the past though. You could go on off angles, you could go flank as Gambit because you had damage. They took away They took away his damage and they buffed his healing. They made him a heal bolt. They made him a heal bolt. You guys remember you guys remember like the the the the the necro short when Gambit first came out, the crazy combo of one shooting like dash EF dash E F. They took away all of that to give him more healing and less damage.
CaptainCoach (02:01:45.327)
I'm just trolling eyes.
Coach Mills (02:01:45.593)
Okay.
imperator (02:02:04.801)
They made him into a heal bolt. He was fun to play at the start, and then they just made him into a heal bolt. If they just cut his ult in half since the start, nerfed his healing, kept his damage the same, he would have been he would have been a fun mix support to play. But no we have a boring ass, easy to play, front to back ult bolt farming support.
Nerfpool (02:02:21.669)
This goes back to what you were you it goes back to what you were talking about Black Cat where you design a character with flexibility in mind and then you narrow him down a specific path. And this same thing with Gambit. You design him with certain flexibility in mind and cooldowns and whatever, and you narrow him down to a specific place. And also, this specific thing is another hand wavy again, Neti's, we did a thing, but we're gonna revert like this like three that I caught in this patch specifically, which is kind of getting a little bit like come on, you guys.
CaptainCoach (02:02:21.721)
Shannon Tatum, Coach Mills.
Coach Mills (02:02:24.413)
What were we saying different?
Nerfpool (02:02:50.551)
Make some impact with it.
CaptainCoach (02:02:53.827)
What do you think it is though? Like the PR it do you think it's PR changes nerf? Yeah.
Nerfpool (02:02:56.643)
Yes. Yeah. So yeah. No, a hundred percent. No, it's it first of all, well, two things. It's eight point five, it's not nine that typically do the bigger things in the you know, when it's a brand, brand new season. But I think a lot of this is we gotta we gotta do something. We gotta nerf Phoenix, we gotta do 'cause the streamers have been complaining the same way that they talked about other stuff in a game. So yeah, I think this one specifically, I think just net he's going, give him a little something, and that's it.
CaptainCoach (02:03:15.938)
Right.
CaptainCoach (02:03:23.429)
yeah, and you've been in that Sioux for a while. You you you feeling all right? You need a
Coach Mills (02:03:26.059)
Yeah yeah, you you did alright?
Nerfpool (02:03:27.223)
I feel a little woozy, but you know, I I took the idea. I mean, I'm good. I'm all right. I'm feeling real nice actually, it's getting
Coach Mills (02:03:30.421)
Yeah. We'll have the the first rivals podcast where someone passes the fuck out on
CaptainCoach (02:03:31.807)
Yeah.
Nerfpool (02:03:37.157)
Yeah. Yeah, gotta get those ratings, boy.
Coach Mills (02:03:38.026)
so we have two more characters to talk about and then we'll we'll speed through some of the other talking points real quick. But yeah, let's talk about Ultron. So they're just nerfing Ultron straight up. They were they're nerfing his the drone distance to attach is from thirty five meters down to thirty. The imperative firewall cooldown, which is the activate for the all the all the things that it gives you speed boost, shields, extra bits of damage, it's up to twelve seconds instead of ten.
And then the cost of the ultimate goes from four thousand to forty three hundred. Yeah. Well what do what do you think about the the Ultron changes? Nerf Pool, I'm guessing you don't see a ton of Ultron in really?
Nerfpool (02:04:16.942)
More than you would think, actually. I I'm all I was also surprised. And that's probably because his healing is just the thing that you don't have to worry about. And then you can try it. Yep. So the only thing that's been I'd say problematic has been the ult comes out pretty quick and people don't shoot him. And he's very killable in his ult, but people don't focus him. So that's been my that's been my gripe specifically.
CaptainCoach (02:04:25.069)
He's a popular character too. He's popular. Well.
Coach Mills (02:04:25.122)
Nah.
Okay, mocha.
Nerfpool (02:04:42.414)
I don't know what this is gonna do to him specifically here, but I I do appreciate the alt increase. I think that's gonna make my life a lot easier. But other than that, I think but he's more he's more played in low early than you than you would think. A lot of times he's played in comps than he shouldn't be, but you know, he's there.
Coach Mills (02:05:00.115)
okay, what about you, Imp? How do you feel about it? How do you feel how do you feel about the the Ultron Shapes?
imperator (02:05:03.541)
Amazing. Ultron is one of the annoying protects we see in MRC and sometimes ignite scrims. They would just protect Ultron and protect Mantis, run Ultron Mantis with any other third support that's really annoying to play against. Really boring front to back slope, so I'm happy to see any Ultron or Mantis nerfs. Honestly, like they're great. Like as long as the hero gets picked less, works less, I'm fine with it.
CaptainCoach (02:05:29.645)
Yeah, I'm kinda in the same boat. And and they re there's another one where they reverted a change. Say w thirty to thirty five, then back down to thirty.
Coach Mills (02:05:35.117)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just yeah. yeah, yeah, they're in nine point they're gonna buff this character again, you know you know. you know like Yeah, that he he
imperator (02:05:37.527)
It's so boring, bro.
CaptainCoach (02:05:39.671)
So you have to be a little closer.
imperator (02:05:42.957)
No, release a swimsuit. Release a swimsuit Ultron skin.
Nerfpool (02:05:43.132)
Can't give gooner skins though. I'm gonna put bikini on man. I know it.
CaptainCoach (02:05:43.905)
The Ultron wedding skin.
CaptainCoach (02:05:48.867)
Make it Ultron.
imperator (02:05:50.977)
Give him a bulge, let him leak some oil from his chest and like, yeah. yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:05:53.647)
Is AI says says the the most sensual things trained trained in all the human behavior.
Coach Mills (02:05:54.794)
shit.
Nerfpool (02:05:57.372)
Squirtomatic. Very good.
imperator (02:06:00.141)
Yep. And watch the buffs and skin sales go up.
Coach Mills (02:06:02.649)
Fucking yeah, chucking god. yeah.
Nerfpool (02:06:09.284)
I am ready for a Robo Bulge. It will happen.
imperator (02:06:12.13)
Yep.
Coach Mills (02:06:14.521)
Alright, last up s white fox ultimate or white fox now the the charm invincibility spell field radius did get reduced from point eight to point six. It's still fucking easy as hell to hit, but they did nerf it.
imperator (02:06:15.856)
don't even show this one, though it'll piss me off.
Nerfpool (02:06:18.812)
She got a goo in her skin too, by the way. Yeah.
CaptainCoach (02:06:19.458)
yeah, yeah.
imperator (02:06:21.419)
Get this bitch off the screen, like I like aww.
imperator (02:06:36.855)
Can you scroll down? There's more there's more nerfs, right? Can you scroll down? shit, there's nothing else.
CaptainCoach (02:06:37.721)
I don't know if you saw
Coach Mills (02:06:39.233)
Nope, nope, no, no, no, no, no. The character is still busted. I I'm I'm telling you, I'm telling you, okay, this is this is the meta. For those of you who don't know the meta, ch th those of you who are listening, want to know the meta. This is the fucking meta. You ban Gambit and you play White Fox Luna every fucking game. It's a a broken ass backline. It can't be Dove. It wins a two V one against any character in the fucking game. that's it. That's all I got for you.
Nerfpool (02:06:40.22)
No
CaptainCoach (02:06:40.589)
But look at look what I'm doing, Mills. what am I doing?
imperator (02:06:44.823)
Ha ha
CaptainCoach (02:06:47.961)
Slap on the wrist.
CaptainCoach (02:07:01.657)
Gunnar Creek, Coach Mills. Gooner Creek.
Nerfpool (02:07:03.12)
Yep. Yep.
imperator (02:07:03.487)
I mean White Fox is permanently played against us in in scrims. We have to either ban White Fox or Luna because those two cannot exist in the same game. That's how disgusting Whitefix White Fox and her anchor is. The she needs to get legit kneecapped. The hero is the the the I don't they buffed her when she didn't need buffs, and then when they nerf her, they nerf nothing. 0.8 to 0.6. Now the now the p now the fucking paraplegic silver eye white fox player cannot hit his
Coach Mills (02:07:13.261)
No, they can't
Coach Mills (02:07:25.977)
Yeah.
imperator (02:07:32.469)
charms anymore when he's aiming to fucking Yao Ming. Wow what a what a great nerf. What a what a great fucking nerf. No, I this is great. She's gonna be so terrible now.
CaptainCoach (02:07:40.974)
We really do need to get we really do need to get some support players on top. I mean I got I got nothing to add to that. That was perfect.
Coach Mills (02:07:44.395)
Yeah, there's no way
Nerfpool (02:07:45.046)
This is awful. And I'm trying to be a support nive and I'm like, Yep, fuck
Coach Mills (02:07:51.256)
Okay, okay, that was just cinema.
Nerfpool (02:07:53.735)
No, but I actually have a lot of gripes.
