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- Welcome to CET talks, the
International Accreditors
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for Continuing Education
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and Training's podcast,
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where we convene thought leaders
in the continuing education
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and training ecosystem to share ideas,
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research best practices,
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and experiences that promote the creation
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of a world that learns better.
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Enjoy the episode.
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- Hello and welcome to CET talks.
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My name is Randy Bowman,
IACET's president and CEO,
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and I'm here with my co-host, Mike Veny
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a certified corporate wellness specialist
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and CEO of an IACET accredited provider.
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Hey, Mike, great to see you again.
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- Hi, Randy.
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Before we get started with today's guest,
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I have a question for you.
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I should have probably asked
you this before we hit record,
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but I'm conflicted on something.
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Okay. We, we have a system
here for doing these podcasts,
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but I, I think we might
wanna change things up
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and like, I don't know,
maybe I do the intro
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or I don't know, the two
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of us have a argument in
the intro or something.
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I don't know. Like what, what
are your thoughts on all that
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- Change?
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Scares me. I like nice
structured black lines,
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but, you know, oh,
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I can be flexible if I need to be.
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- Well, I'm just, I'm,
I'm trying to be creative.
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I'm trying to be creative
and that's what's on my mind.
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- And, and you know, Mike,
that's why we work well together.
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I bring the nice
structure and organization
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and you bring the fun and spirit
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and the ability to say, to
knock me out of that routine so
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that things can be engaging.
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And so, yeah, luckily we have a person
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with us today who's gonna talk
to us a little bit about how
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to create creativity.
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- Yes, we do. Aaron
Wolowiec is the founder
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and president of Event Guard,
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a serial learner and entrepreneur.
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Aaron has combed his craft
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and now designs engaging
multi-sensory experiences
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for a diverse range of learners.
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I wanna understand more about that.
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And Aaron is nationally recognized
for his learning meetings
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and facilitation work
with boards, volunteers,
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members and staff.
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Aaron, welcome to the show.
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- Thank you so much for having me.
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- Hey, we're glad you're here.
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So to kick us off, okay, I-
I- I just said it, I tend
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to be a business guy
head down, no nonsense.
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Creativity to me is, can
just be fluffy, right?
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Hey, it's just getting in the way.
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So te- tell me why I am wrong
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and what does that
creativity actually and,
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and how does it impact engagement?
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- Well, as I was thinking about
this for today's recording,
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I thought maybe I would start
with what creativity is not
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and maybe why it's a problem
when we're not creative.
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When I think about creativity,
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I'm not necessarily talking
about like arts and crafts
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and paint and finger painting
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and all of those things that
maybe feel at the opposite end
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of this extreme
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or spectrum, Randy, to what you
were speaking about earlier.
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But when I think about what
creativity is, definitely not,
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I find this to be the case with my clients
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and in the facilitations that
I sometimes find myself in,
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where we walk into the
same conference room
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where every meeting is
always held the table
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and the chairs are
arranged in the same way
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that they always are.
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Every single person
who attends that weekly
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or monthly meeting sits
in the exact same seat.
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We wouldn't wanna upset
the apple cart after all.
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And we go through sort
of the same motions.
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And what happens when we bind ourselves in
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that routine is that
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although it is comfortable,
our brain takes shortcuts
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and the shortcuts that
our brain takes is saying,
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I know what this is.
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I know what participation looks like.
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I know what's expected of me.
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I can check out, maybe I will be listening
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for my name if I'm caught off guard.
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And I will check in at that
moment and maybe respond, but
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otherwise this is
familiar, this feels safe,
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this feels like business as usual.
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And unfortunately when we
do what we've always done,
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we're gonna get what we've always got.
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And so when we think
about creativity, I want
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to think about the act of generating new
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and original ideas,
thinking outside of sort
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of our conventional thinking
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and boundaries, combining
different ideas from different
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stakeholders or different perspectives
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and producing something
that is not just innovative
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but is really useful in moving us forward.
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And creativity is one
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of the means in which we
can identify in our training
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and facilitation work
really different, unique,
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innovative ideas to challenges
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that have been plaguing
us for a very long time.
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- I just wrote so much
down there on my notepad
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and I have so many questions,
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but I'm gonna get right
to an important one.
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In your journey, what common
challenges have you encountered
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when trying to design
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and implement creative environments
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for learning and facilitation?
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I'm sure people are very resistant
to this sometimes, right?
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- Yeah, I think that's funny.
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I wrote down a couple of things
in, in sort of preparation
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for this question and the
very first one on my list is
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that resistance to change.
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The fear of the unknown, sort
of having the way we like
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to do things the way we've
done and seen them before.
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Sometimes because of that we
don't see the value in trying
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or doing something new.
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In other instances it's
just lack of resources.
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Like we don't invest the money into
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what it means to be creative.
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I'm not suggesting that
creativity is super expensive,
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but I do think that it
does take an investment.
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I was actually just for a course
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that I regularly train over
two days we put little fidget
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toys on the table and
over period of months
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and years of teaching the course,
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sometimes those fidget
toys either break down
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or they walk away.
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And there is some small
investment in replacing those
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and kind of keeping them
current and up to date.
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But also just thinking about the time
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or the investment in time,
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like thinking about actually
sitting down to say,
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if I were going to do this differently
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or if I were to do this
more creatively, what would
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that look like?
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And sometimes that fear of
failure, that fear of risk,
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the fear of not knowing a different way
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or not sort of leaning
into a different strategy
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and not having sort of buy-in
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and support from your other
team members or from leadership.
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These are all sort of things
that can stand in the way
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of us being creative.
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- No, I, I understand that.
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And one thing I wanted to
ask, I'm gonna just in defense
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of my co-host and friend Randy here,
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and what IACET teaches systems
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and processes are important for business
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and Randy is looking at me like he
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was just thinking that, right? And and
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- I,
- Yes,
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I was actually getting forming my
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question right around this.
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- So you're, oh my gosh.
And so the question that,
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that I have for you is we need systems
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and processes for predictability
to run a business,
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but we also need creativity.
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I get it. I'm an artist by
trade, so I'm totally with you.
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So where's the line here?
Where, where's this line?
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- Yeah, I think that's where we have
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to like lean into the
specific conversation
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or training or facilitation
that we're having
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and to identify along
that continuum of maybe
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not diametrically opposed,
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but on one end sort of
system and structure.
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And on the other end sort of creativity
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and innovation, a sliding
scale of usefulness of
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what are the objectives
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or outcomes that we're trying
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to achieve in whatever conversation we're
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trying to lead or have.
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And determine where the
process and structure
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and systems are needed.
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But also where are the
places that in order
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to garner different perspectives
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and insights from our learners
or different approaches
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or considerations, if we're in
a facilitation, what is going
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to get the most out of
that particular experience?
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And using certainly a
combination of the two to produce
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that outcome or achieve the
outcome that you're looking for.
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And so I don't know that
there's a prescribed percentage
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or balance, but I think it
is about, as always, starting
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with the end in mind,
thinking about those outcomes
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and then designing an intentional strategy
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and plan to help get you there.
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And if there is an opportunity to sort
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of balance like co-facilitators
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or co-train where you do have a mix
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and balance of those skill sets
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and comfort level in
those leading the session,
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what an even more brilliant
outcome to be achieved
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for your learners and participants
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where they're getting a good mix
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of those skill sets and knowledge.
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- So that's maybe to follow along with
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how do we measure
creativity, how do we monitor
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if we're incorporating in
the right amount there,
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how do we do that? What do you look for?
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- You know, at my core as a trainer,
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as a facilitator, one of
the most fundamental things
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that I'm looking for in
groups that I lead, engage,
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and facilitate is participation.
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I'm not looking
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and I'm what I, I think what
I'm about to say is going
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to feel or sound extreme and
I'll certainly back it up,
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but I think that when we're training,
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when we're facilitating,
at least in my work,
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I'm never looking for 25 or 50 or 75%
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or even 90% participation engagement.
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I'm really looking for 100% engagement.
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And as long as we think about
what we mean by engagement,
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I think it is achievable.
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When I think about engagement,
I think about the different
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ways that people can engage.
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I don't necessarily always
mean like raising our hand
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and speaking out loud, but
thinking about if we're really
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designing, engaging, learning
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and facilitation experiences,
opportunity for self thinking
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and reflection time, opportunity
to work maybe in pairs
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or small groups opportunity
to work in large groups
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and developing a design
plan that really helps us
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to achieve some sort of
engagement for everyone,
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although it may not look the same.
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I think your ability to stand
outside of that engagement
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to say, you know, I think
everyone did engage in some sort
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of way, I think is one really
big measuring stick that,
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that I would like us to
think about and consider.
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I think that post session, there
are a lot of other examples
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of typical questions we
can include on surveys.
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I wrote down a couple of them like
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how would you rate the novelty
of the ideas you generated
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during this experience?
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Describe a moment during the
learning experience when you
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felt most creative and what
factors contributed to that
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or what to
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what extent did the learning
environment support risk taking
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and experimentation?
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How did collaboration
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with peers affect your
creative process and outcomes?
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And lastly, like what changes,
if any, would you suggest
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to enhance the creative aspects
of this learning experience?
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I mean, they're all going
to be qualitative responses.
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I think that it's often
difficult on a quantitative scale
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to, to judge creativity.
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'cause everyone's relationship
to creativity will differ
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as an artist I would
suspect Mike, like you're,
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you would look for a a
high level of creativity
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or maybe you would be less
impressed by some things
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that maybe would push Randy a little bit
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outside of his comfort zone.
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It's- so I think these
qualitative responses are really
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helpful to identify if the design,
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if the engagement really
supported creative thinking
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and certainly outcomes.
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- Those are fantastic questions.
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And to those of you listening
out there, if you didn't
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listen to those questions or,
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or write them down, I
encourage you to rewind this
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and go back and listen.
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Now, just to give you some context here,
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I facilitate interactive
drumming workshops,
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so I do this all the time.
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So I'm asking you like facilitator,
two facilitator there is
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that one person in the group
that is just resistant to it
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or maybe you, you're
working with an organization
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where everyone else is on board with you,
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but the, the CEO, how do you
navigate that in real time?
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In, in, in the moment?
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- I think two things sort
of really stand out to me.
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One is I think teeing
up the session at the
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outset to to share or to set the tone
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and context for your intentionality
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around creativity is important.
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So even sharing a week in advance
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or a couple of days in
advance, like our intention
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during the session is to
maybe push you outside
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of your comfort zone a little bit
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and to lean into creativity
for X, Y, and Z reasons.
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I think giving people
some time to sit with that
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and think about it and
process it is always great.
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I hate springing that
on someone at the onset
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of a session when they
don't necessarily know
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what they're getting themselves into.
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I think a second thing
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that I was really thinking
about is we typically start our
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trainings and facilitations
with community agreements.
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So some sort of norm
setting where we identify
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the expectations for how
people will engage with
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that particular session, what's acceptable
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and unacceptable in terms of
behavior, not only interacting
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with the facilitator, but
also with one another.
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And so setting this
context for the environment
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and how people are going to
engage I think is helpful.
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I think one more, as I
was just speaking that
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that really made me think
a little bit more is
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that not everyone is
going to kind of accept
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and take on this creative mindset 100%.
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And also that's okay.
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Like people don't have to
all engage in the same way.
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00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:06,550
They don't all have to be
super excited and onboard
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00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:08,650
and sometimes people kind
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of observing creativity
at work will get their
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mind thinking
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and maybe later down the
road, the next session,
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the next opportunity, maybe
they'll be brave enough
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to try on just even a little bit more.
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And so not forcing sort of a
square peg into a round hole
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and recognizing that as adult learners,
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00:14:28,630 --> 00:14:32,050
like we also have the choice
to like not participate
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and not engage in the
same way as everyone else.
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And that's okay too.
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00:14:36,010 --> 00:14:38,350
- Aaron, this has been
an incredible discussion
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00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:41,170
and I can't believe it's going by so fast.
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So one of our things that
we like to do is, is we like
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00:14:44,830 --> 00:14:48,610
to ask every single one of
our guests, what does a world
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00:14:48,610 --> 00:14:50,830
that learns better look like to you?
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00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:54,560
- So many things, so many things.
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The first thing though that
really comes to my mind is
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the sort of eagerness
and openness to learn.
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I think that when we
stop craving learning,
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00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:06,860
we ourselves atrophy.
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00:15:06,860 --> 00:15:08,420
And I think that the organizations
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00:15:08,420 --> 00:15:12,380
and the industries that we're
involved in also do the same.
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00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:15,680
And I think that, you know,
that resides within each of us
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00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,280
as individuals, but also as
trainers and facilitators.
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00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,550
That responsibility also
lies within each of us.
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00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:26,600
Like we need to be open
to learning and refining
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00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,050
and honing our craft to
experimenting with creativity
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and innovation and new systems and methods
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00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,460
and approaches that just
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00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:37,310
because you're at a certain
point in your career
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00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:40,610
to say like, I've, I know
it all, I've learned it all
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00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:43,760
and I'm just gonna do it
the way I've been doing it.
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00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,490
I think is a real failure to the people
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that we have the opportunity
to impart knowledge
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and information and wisdom upon.
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00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:54,620
And so as if we continue
to dedicate ourselves
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to lifelong learning,
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00:15:55,850 --> 00:15:59,030
then I think we will be even
better educators for others.
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00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:05,690
- Aaron, thank you so much for sharing all
347
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:07,670
of this with us today.
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00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:12,530
I got so much outta today's
interview, it just flew by
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00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:15,830
and, and Randy, I usually, I
have one main thing that I got,
350
00:16:15,830 --> 00:16:18,830
but for this one I've
got a few, actually one,
351
00:16:18,830 --> 00:16:23,330
those questions for measuring
are so important, the idea
352
00:16:23,330 --> 00:16:26,930
of a community agreement
in in different situations.
353
00:16:26,930 --> 00:16:30,170
But for those of you out
there that might be skeptical,
354
00:16:30,170 --> 00:16:34,610
this idea that just observing
creativity might be all
355
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:36,110
that you need
356
00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:38,840
to get the benefits from
it. What about you, Randy?
357
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,200
- So I picked up two that
just really stuck with me,
358
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,510
and one was from the very beginning
359
00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:49,310
that there are part people
like me who like things
360
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,790
to always be in place and they
like to know what to expect.
361
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:55,310
And so that, so that I can check out
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00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:57,140
because I'm comfortable.
363
00:16:57,140 --> 00:16:59,090
And that really resonated with me
364
00:16:59,090 --> 00:17:01,910
as maybe a reason why I'm
somewhat resistant is I
365
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:03,470
like being comfortable.
366
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:07,310
And then at the end, it
almost plays into that
367
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:09,260
where Aaron talked about the importance
368
00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:11,450
of setting expectations
369
00:17:11,450 --> 00:17:13,910
because that really
speaks to me as a person
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00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:15,680
who wants to be comfortable.
371
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,180
Oh wait, if you give me a
warning, if I know what to expect,
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00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:23,330
I'm definitely gonna
come in being more open
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00:17:23,330 --> 00:17:26,630
to a different experience,
a creative experience,
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an innovative experience.
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00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,820
- Wow. I absolutely agree with you.
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00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:34,910
I wrote down those same things as well.
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00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:37,370
As we wrap up today's discussion on
378
00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:39,530
creativity, we'd love to hear from you.
379
00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:43,460
What changes can you make
to your learning experiences
380
00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:46,400
and environments that might
inspire your learners,
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00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,510
participants, trainers,
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00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:50,760
and facilitators to be
more creative in their
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00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,350
learning journey.
384
00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:53,850
Please share your experiences
385
00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:56,130
and insights on our LinkedIn page.
386
00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:58,680
Your stories can provide
invaluable lessons
387
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,220
and inspiration for others
navigating similar paths.
388
00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:05,010
And don't forget, you can
submit topic ideas, suggestions
389
00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:08,730
for guests and other feedback
on the CET talks podcast page
390
00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:11,640
of the IACET.org website.
391
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,470
We certainly hope you'll subscribe
392
00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:16,680
to this podcast on your
favorite podcast platform
393
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,450
so you don't miss any episodes.
394
00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:20,760
Thank you so much for joining us today.
395
00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:25,680
- You've been listening to CET Talks,
396
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,570
the official podcast of IACET.
397
00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:30,180
Don't forget to subscribe
to the podcast on Spotify,
398
00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:32,880
Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to podcast.
399
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,030
To learn more about IACET visit IACET.org,
400
00:18:36,030 --> 00:18:38,700
that's I-A-C-E-T.org.
401
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:40,740
Thanks for listening
and we'll be back soon
402
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:41,580
with the new episode.
00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:09,270
- Welcome to CET talks, the
International Accreditors
2
00:00:09,270 --> 00:00:10,650
for Continuing Education
3
00:00:10,650 --> 00:00:12,120
and Training's podcast,
4
00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:14,700
where we convene thought leaders
in the continuing education
5
00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:17,130
and training ecosystem to share ideas,
6
00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:18,540
research best practices,
7
00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:21,120
and experiences that promote the creation
8
00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,040
of a world that learns better.
9
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:24,240
Enjoy the episode.
10
00:00:29,460 --> 00:00:31,890
- Hello and welcome to CET talks.
11
00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:35,340
My name is Randy Bowman,
IACET's president and CEO,
12
00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:38,130
and I'm here with my co-host, Mike Veny
13
00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:40,500
a certified corporate wellness specialist
14
00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,830
and CEO of an IACET accredited provider.
15
00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:46,110
Hey, Mike, great to see you again.
16
00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:47,400
- Hi, Randy.
17
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,910
Before we get started with today's guest,
18
00:00:50,910 --> 00:00:52,020
I have a question for you.
19
00:00:52,020 --> 00:00:55,200
I should have probably asked
you this before we hit record,
20
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,950
but I'm conflicted on something.
21
00:00:58,950 --> 00:01:01,950
Okay. We, we have a system
here for doing these podcasts,
22
00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:04,050
but I, I think we might
wanna change things up
23
00:01:04,050 --> 00:01:06,060
and like, I don't know,
maybe I do the intro
24
00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:07,560
or I don't know, the two
25
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,350
of us have a argument in
the intro or something.
26
00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:12,000
I don't know. Like what, what
are your thoughts on all that
27
00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:14,320
- Change?
28
00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:17,010
Scares me. I like nice
structured black lines,
29
00:01:17,010 --> 00:01:19,170
but, you know, oh,
30
00:01:20,730 --> 00:01:22,320
I can be flexible if I need to be.
31
00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:25,200
- Well, I'm just, I'm,
I'm trying to be creative.
32
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,810
I'm trying to be creative
and that's what's on my mind.
33
00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:30,330
- And, and you know, Mike,
that's why we work well together.
34
00:01:30,330 --> 00:01:33,090
I bring the nice
structure and organization
35
00:01:33,090 --> 00:01:35,220
and you bring the fun and spirit
36
00:01:35,220 --> 00:01:39,150
and the ability to say, to
knock me out of that routine so
37
00:01:39,150 --> 00:01:41,730
that things can be engaging.
38
00:01:41,730 --> 00:01:45,270
And so, yeah, luckily we have a person
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00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:48,330
with us today who's gonna talk
to us a little bit about how
40
00:01:48,330 --> 00:01:50,220
to create creativity.
41
00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:53,340
- Yes, we do. Aaron
Wolowiec is the founder
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00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:55,680
and president of Event Guard,
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00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,690
a serial learner and entrepreneur.
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00:01:57,690 --> 00:01:59,670
Aaron has combed his craft
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00:01:59,670 --> 00:02:03,870
and now designs engaging
multi-sensory experiences
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00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:06,030
for a diverse range of learners.
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00:02:06,030 --> 00:02:07,620
I wanna understand more about that.
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00:02:07,620 --> 00:02:10,650
And Aaron is nationally recognized
for his learning meetings
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00:02:10,650 --> 00:02:14,160
and facilitation work
with boards, volunteers,
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00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:15,600
members and staff.
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00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,550
Aaron, welcome to the show.
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00:02:17,550 --> 00:02:18,720
- Thank you so much for having me.
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- Hey, we're glad you're here.
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00:02:21,270 --> 00:02:25,350
So to kick us off, okay, I-
I- I just said it, I tend
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00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:28,710
to be a business guy
head down, no nonsense.
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Creativity to me is, can
just be fluffy, right?
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Hey, it's just getting in the way.
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So te- tell me why I am wrong
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and what does that
creativity actually and,
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and how does it impact engagement?
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- Well, as I was thinking about
this for today's recording,
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I thought maybe I would start
with what creativity is not
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and maybe why it's a problem
when we're not creative.
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When I think about creativity,
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I'm not necessarily talking
about like arts and crafts
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and paint and finger painting
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and all of those things that
maybe feel at the opposite end
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of this extreme
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or spectrum, Randy, to what you
were speaking about earlier.
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But when I think about what
creativity is, definitely not,
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I find this to be the case with my clients
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and in the facilitations that
I sometimes find myself in,
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where we walk into the
same conference room
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where every meeting is
always held the table
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and the chairs are
arranged in the same way
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that they always are.
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Every single person
who attends that weekly
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or monthly meeting sits
in the exact same seat.
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We wouldn't wanna upset
the apple cart after all.
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And we go through sort
of the same motions.
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And what happens when we bind ourselves in
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that routine is that
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00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:49,870
although it is comfortable,
our brain takes shortcuts
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and the shortcuts that
our brain takes is saying,
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I know what this is.
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I know what participation looks like.
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I know what's expected of me.
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I can check out, maybe I will be listening
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00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:03,070
for my name if I'm caught off guard.
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00:04:03,070 --> 00:04:06,100
And I will check in at that
moment and maybe respond, but
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00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:08,770
otherwise this is
familiar, this feels safe,
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00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:11,650
this feels like business as usual.
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And unfortunately when we
do what we've always done,
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we're gonna get what we've always got.
95
00:04:17,380 --> 00:04:19,000
And so when we think
about creativity, I want
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00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,080
to think about the act of generating new
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and original ideas,
thinking outside of sort
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00:04:26,410 --> 00:04:27,880
of our conventional thinking
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and boundaries, combining
different ideas from different
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stakeholders or different perspectives
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00:04:34,630 --> 00:04:37,510
and producing something
that is not just innovative
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but is really useful in moving us forward.
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And creativity is one
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of the means in which we
can identify in our training
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and facilitation work
really different, unique,
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innovative ideas to challenges
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that have been plaguing
us for a very long time.
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- I just wrote so much
down there on my notepad
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and I have so many questions,
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but I'm gonna get right
to an important one.
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In your journey, what common
challenges have you encountered
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when trying to design
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and implement creative environments
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for learning and facilitation?
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I'm sure people are very resistant
to this sometimes, right?
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- Yeah, I think that's funny.
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I wrote down a couple of things
in, in sort of preparation
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for this question and the
very first one on my list is
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that resistance to change.
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The fear of the unknown, sort
of having the way we like
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to do things the way we've
done and seen them before.
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Sometimes because of that we
don't see the value in trying
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or doing something new.
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In other instances it's
just lack of resources.
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Like we don't invest the money into
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what it means to be creative.
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I'm not suggesting that
creativity is super expensive,
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but I do think that it
does take an investment.
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I was actually just for a course
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that I regularly train over
two days we put little fidget
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toys on the table and
over period of months
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and years of teaching the course,
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sometimes those fidget
toys either break down
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or they walk away.
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And there is some small
investment in replacing those
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and kind of keeping them
current and up to date.
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But also just thinking about the time
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or the investment in time,
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like thinking about actually
sitting down to say,
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if I were going to do this differently
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or if I were to do this
more creatively, what would
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that look like?
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And sometimes that fear of
failure, that fear of risk,
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the fear of not knowing a different way
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or not sort of leaning
into a different strategy
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and not having sort of buy-in
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and support from your other
team members or from leadership.
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These are all sort of things
that can stand in the way
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of us being creative.
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- No, I, I understand that.
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And one thing I wanted to
ask, I'm gonna just in defense
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of my co-host and friend Randy here,
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and what IACET teaches systems
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and processes are important for business
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and Randy is looking at me like he
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was just thinking that, right? And and
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- I,
- Yes,
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I was actually getting forming my
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question right around this.
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- So you're, oh my gosh.
And so the question that,
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that I have for you is we need systems
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and processes for predictability
to run a business,
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but we also need creativity.
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I get it. I'm an artist by
trade, so I'm totally with you.
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So where's the line here?
Where, where's this line?
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- Yeah, I think that's where we have
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to like lean into the
specific conversation
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or training or facilitation
that we're having
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and to identify along
that continuum of maybe
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not diametrically opposed,
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but on one end sort of
system and structure.
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And on the other end sort of creativity
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and innovation, a sliding
scale of usefulness of
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what are the objectives
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or outcomes that we're trying
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to achieve in whatever conversation we're
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trying to lead or have.
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And determine where the
process and structure
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and systems are needed.
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But also where are the
places that in order
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to garner different perspectives
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and insights from our learners
or different approaches
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or considerations, if we're in
a facilitation, what is going
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to get the most out of
that particular experience?
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And using certainly a
combination of the two to produce
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that outcome or achieve the
outcome that you're looking for.
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And so I don't know that
there's a prescribed percentage
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or balance, but I think it
is about, as always, starting
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with the end in mind,
thinking about those outcomes
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and then designing an intentional strategy
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and plan to help get you there.
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And if there is an opportunity to sort
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of balance like co-facilitators
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or co-train where you do have a mix
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and balance of those skill sets
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and comfort level in
those leading the session,
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what an even more brilliant
outcome to be achieved
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for your learners and participants
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where they're getting a good mix
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of those skill sets and knowledge.
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- So that's maybe to follow along with
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how do we measure
creativity, how do we monitor
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if we're incorporating in
the right amount there,
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how do we do that? What do you look for?
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- You know, at my core as a trainer,
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as a facilitator, one of
the most fundamental things
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that I'm looking for in
groups that I lead, engage,
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and facilitate is participation.
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I'm not looking
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and I'm what I, I think what
I'm about to say is going
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to feel or sound extreme and
I'll certainly back it up,
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but I think that when we're training,
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when we're facilitating,
at least in my work,
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I'm never looking for 25 or 50 or 75%
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or even 90% participation engagement.
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I'm really looking for 100% engagement.
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And as long as we think about
what we mean by engagement,
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I think it is achievable.
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When I think about engagement,
I think about the different
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ways that people can engage.
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I don't necessarily always
mean like raising our hand
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and speaking out loud, but
thinking about if we're really
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designing, engaging, learning
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and facilitation experiences,
opportunity for self thinking
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and reflection time, opportunity
to work maybe in pairs
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or small groups opportunity
to work in large groups
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and developing a design
plan that really helps us
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to achieve some sort of
engagement for everyone,
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although it may not look the same.
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I think your ability to stand
outside of that engagement
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to say, you know, I think
everyone did engage in some sort
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of way, I think is one really
big measuring stick that,
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that I would like us to
think about and consider.
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I think that post session, there
are a lot of other examples
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of typical questions we
can include on surveys.
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I wrote down a couple of them like
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how would you rate the novelty
of the ideas you generated
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during this experience?
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Describe a moment during the
learning experience when you
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felt most creative and what
factors contributed to that
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or what to
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what extent did the learning
environment support risk taking
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and experimentation?
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How did collaboration
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with peers affect your
creative process and outcomes?
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And lastly, like what changes,
if any, would you suggest
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to enhance the creative aspects
of this learning experience?
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I mean, they're all going
to be qualitative responses.
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I think that it's often
difficult on a quantitative scale
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to, to judge creativity.
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'cause everyone's relationship
to creativity will differ
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as an artist I would
suspect Mike, like you're,
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you would look for a a
high level of creativity
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or maybe you would be less
impressed by some things
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that maybe would push Randy a little bit
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outside of his comfort zone.
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It's- so I think these
qualitative responses are really
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helpful to identify if the design,
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if the engagement really
supported creative thinking
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and certainly outcomes.
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- Those are fantastic questions.
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And to those of you listening
out there, if you didn't
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listen to those questions or,
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or write them down, I
encourage you to rewind this
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and go back and listen.
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Now, just to give you some context here,
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I facilitate interactive
drumming workshops,
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so I do this all the time.
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So I'm asking you like facilitator,
two facilitator there is
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that one person in the group
that is just resistant to it
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or maybe you, you're
working with an organization
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where everyone else is on board with you,
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but the, the CEO, how do you
navigate that in real time?
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In, in, in the moment?
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- I think two things sort
of really stand out to me.
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One is I think teeing
up the session at the
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outset to to share or to set the tone
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and context for your intentionality
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around creativity is important.
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So even sharing a week in advance
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or a couple of days in
advance, like our intention
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during the session is to
maybe push you outside
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of your comfort zone a little bit
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and to lean into creativity
for X, Y, and Z reasons.
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I think giving people
some time to sit with that
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and think about it and
process it is always great.
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I hate springing that
on someone at the onset
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of a session when they
don't necessarily know
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what they're getting themselves into.
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I think a second thing
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that I was really thinking
about is we typically start our
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trainings and facilitations
with community agreements.
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So some sort of norm
setting where we identify
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the expectations for how
people will engage with
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that particular session, what's acceptable
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and unacceptable in terms of
behavior, not only interacting
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with the facilitator, but
also with one another.
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And so setting this
context for the environment
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and how people are going to
engage I think is helpful.
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I think one more, as I
was just speaking that
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that really made me think
a little bit more is
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that not everyone is
going to kind of accept
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and take on this creative mindset 100%.
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And also that's okay.
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Like people don't have to
all engage in the same way.
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They don't all have to be
super excited and onboard
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and sometimes people kind
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of observing creativity
at work will get their
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mind thinking
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and maybe later down the
road, the next session,
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the next opportunity, maybe
they'll be brave enough
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to try on just even a little bit more.
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And so not forcing sort of a
square peg into a round hole
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and recognizing that as adult learners,
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like we also have the choice
to like not participate
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and not engage in the
same way as everyone else.
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And that's okay too.
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- Aaron, this has been
an incredible discussion
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and I can't believe it's going by so fast.
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So one of our things that
we like to do is, is we like
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to ask every single one of
our guests, what does a world
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that learns better look like to you?
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- So many things, so many things.
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The first thing though that
really comes to my mind is
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the sort of eagerness
and openness to learn.
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I think that when we
stop craving learning,
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we ourselves atrophy.
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And I think that the organizations
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and the industries that we're
involved in also do the same.
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And I think that, you know,
that resides within each of us
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as individuals, but also as
trainers and facilitators.
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That responsibility also
lies within each of us.
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Like we need to be open
to learning and refining
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and honing our craft to
experimenting with creativity
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and innovation and new systems and methods
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and approaches that just
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because you're at a certain
point in your career
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to say like, I've, I know
it all, I've learned it all
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and I'm just gonna do it
the way I've been doing it.
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I think is a real failure to the people
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that we have the opportunity
to impart knowledge
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and information and wisdom upon.
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And so as if we continue
to dedicate ourselves
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to lifelong learning,
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then I think we will be even
better educators for others.
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- Aaron, thank you so much for sharing all
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of this with us today.
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I got so much outta today's
interview, it just flew by
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and, and Randy, I usually, I
have one main thing that I got,
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but for this one I've
got a few, actually one,
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those questions for measuring
are so important, the idea
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of a community agreement
in in different situations.
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But for those of you out
there that might be skeptical,
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this idea that just observing
creativity might be all
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that you need
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00:16:36,110 --> 00:16:38,840
to get the benefits from
it. What about you, Randy?
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00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,200
- So I picked up two that
just really stuck with me,
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00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,510
and one was from the very beginning
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00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:49,310
that there are part people
like me who like things
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00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,790
to always be in place and they
like to know what to expect.
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00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:55,310
And so that, so that I can check out
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00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:57,140
because I'm comfortable.
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00:16:57,140 --> 00:16:59,090
And that really resonated with me
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00:16:59,090 --> 00:17:01,910
as maybe a reason why I'm
somewhat resistant is I
365
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:03,470
like being comfortable.
366
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:07,310
And then at the end, it
almost plays into that
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00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:09,260
where Aaron talked about the importance
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00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:11,450
of setting expectations
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00:17:11,450 --> 00:17:13,910
because that really
speaks to me as a person
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00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:15,680
who wants to be comfortable.
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00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,180
Oh wait, if you give me a
warning, if I know what to expect,
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00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:23,330
I'm definitely gonna
come in being more open
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00:17:23,330 --> 00:17:26,630
to a different experience,
a creative experience,
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00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:28,250
an innovative experience.
375
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,820
- Wow. I absolutely agree with you.
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00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:34,910
I wrote down those same things as well.
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00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:37,370
As we wrap up today's discussion on
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00:17:37,370 --> 00:17:39,530
creativity, we'd love to hear from you.
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00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:43,460
What changes can you make
to your learning experiences
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00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:46,400
and environments that might
inspire your learners,
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00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,510
participants, trainers,
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00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:50,760
and facilitators to be
more creative in their
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00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,350
learning journey.
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00:17:52,350 --> 00:17:53,850
Please share your experiences
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00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:56,130
and insights on our LinkedIn page.
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00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:58,680
Your stories can provide
invaluable lessons
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00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,220
and inspiration for others
navigating similar paths.
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00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:05,010
And don't forget, you can
submit topic ideas, suggestions
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00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:08,730
for guests and other feedback
on the CET talks podcast page
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00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:11,640
of the IACET.org website.
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00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,470
We certainly hope you'll subscribe
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00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:16,680
to this podcast on your
favorite podcast platform
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00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,450
so you don't miss any episodes.
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00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:20,760
Thank you so much for joining us today.
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00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:25,680
- You've been listening to CET Talks,
396
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,570
the official podcast of IACET.
397
00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:30,180
Don't forget to subscribe
to the podcast on Spotify,
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00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:32,880
Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to podcast.
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00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,030
To learn more about IACET visit IACET.org,
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00:18:36,030 --> 00:18:38,700
that's I-A-C-E-T.org.
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00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:40,740
Thanks for listening
and we'll be back soon
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00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:41,580
with the new episode.
