Existential Therapy: Breaking Through Apathy and Grieving the Past

WEBVTT
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:11.039
This is a podcast called Breaking Down, where we dive into specific therapy styles or theories you may or may not have heard of.
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:12.240
There's three parts.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.800
You'll learn theory, hear a demonstration, and we break it all down in the end.
00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:21.039
Today we're learning about existential humanistic therapy.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.800
Welcome to Breaking Down.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:29.519
My name is Dr.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:30.640
Lindsey Lerner.
00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:33.759
I'm a clinical psychologist and psilocybin facilitator.
00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:38.240
My co-host is Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.
00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:43.359
And we are here with Bob Edelstein, and I'm a licensed marriage family therapist.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:44.560
Well, thank you for being here.
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:45.039
Yeah.
00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:46.000
Thank you for inviting me.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:47.439
We're very excited you're here.
00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:48.000
Thank you.
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:48.640
All right.
00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:50.719
Well, do we want to just dive in?
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:51.920
Dive into it.
00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:52.799
Okay.
00:00:53.039 --> 00:01:00.719
So do you want to say a little bit about what your approach and theory is and maybe how you would explain this to someone who'd never heard of it before?
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:01.520
Sure.
00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:06.879
It's uh I'm an existential humanistic psychotherapist.
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:10.400
And uh it really is the root words.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:27.359
I'm interested in uh the existential is um how people exist and make meaning and purpose out of their lives, because the the outlook is that what's universal is we're born, we're embodied, and we die.
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:44.719
But how we live our lives, where it can be different theories or approaches, and each one can say my way is the right way, that ultimately it's individually for us to say what is our meeting and purpose through our lives, and that can change through our lives, you know, of of it's it's it can be static.
00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:52.480
And if one's living an engaged, dynamic life, uh it's usually going to change uh subtly, maybe dramatically.
00:01:52.719 --> 00:02:10.240
Um and so and also that's the and also in the existential part is um is that it's focused on limits of uh the limits of being human, different limits.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:16.879
So for instance, uh uh life and death, we all are dealing with that universally.
00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:26.240
Um and freedom and responsibility and meaning and meaninglessness and relationship and aloneness.
00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:27.840
Those are four universals.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:46.479
And um so basically, and again that we're embodied as a limit, and and so basically um it's acknowledging the limits and not denying them, and simultaneously um then the other part of it is how do we use our agency?
00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:49.439
How do we use our how do we choose our lives?
00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:53.680
And and there's many different ways to do that.
00:02:53.919 --> 00:03:07.680
Uh you know, Victor Frankel and Nelson Mandela are great examples of someone who had uh, you know, terrible circumstances, and someone could have just given up or withered or died or whatever.
00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:16.159
And they maintained however they maintained their stance towards life and ended up obviously having a really powerful effect on the world.
00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:32.800
And when I say this, I'm not attempting to be derogatory to the people who might give up, because it's honoring kind of how we are as human beings, not making it better or worse, and having compassion for those who who have trouble, you know.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.360
That's part of clients who come in and and what they're struggling with.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:45.039
Um and so agency and choice are really big things on the existential part.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:54.319
And it's neutrally value-based in that uh one can one can um choose good or evil in a sense, you know.
00:03:54.719 --> 00:04:04.400
Now the humanistic part, that's why it's existential hyphen humanistic, is uh the belief that human beings move towards health and wholeness.
00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:05.599
You know?
00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:11.199
And to be truthful, I think one can uh uh basically people are are good at the core.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:18.240
And you know, I can feel vulnerable in that when we're in a place like we are today in our political situation.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:32.399
But that um but the belief is the way one moves towards health and wholeness in terms of the humanistic psychotherapy is that we all have protections in terms of how we keep how we keep ourselves safe.
00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:43.600
And we could have the best of parents and for whatever reasons in our world and our uh um that basically uh as a child you're not empowered, and so you need to keep safe.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:56.480
And then what happens is that in uh uh com uh continues in terms of adulthood or can, or it does in some ways with everyone, um, and even through one's life, this is an app isn't an absolute thing.
00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.399
But basically uh one isn't even aware of it, or one just feels I'm not able to change it.
00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:16.319
So basically, uh as a side as a uh uh uh existential uh humanist, I'm mentioning the humanistic part, is I'm helping the client be aware of how they're protecting themselves in the here and now.
00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:30.079
And um and then as they trust themselves and trust me, pale it back and seeing what's below it, and then there's wounds, because we all wounded on some level, just like we're all um have great stuff on some level.
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:41.360
And so uh and then the health and wholeness believes if a person leans into the wounds are gonna come out to the other side, and who we are naturally again moves to health and wholeness.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.079
So that would be the humanistic part.
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.519
And uh and that is positively value-based.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:47.920
Yeah.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.680
So to back up a little bit, have you personally struggled with seeing the good in everybody?
00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:59.439
And is that something that just like helps you connect and empathize with like any client that comes in?
00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.040
Um it's a good question.
00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:10.000
It's interesting that which is interesting is with clients in my career, it's been like 50 years really.
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:22.720
Um but there's been I can think of uh I would say like two and a half, but I'm gonna get rid of I'm gonna get rid of the half.
00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:30.480
But there's there's two people that uh one was just uh scared me actually.
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.519
And the other uh was just I had trouble finding any good qualities in the person.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:38.399
Um but that's a pretty small sample.
00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:43.199
And and that basically I've seen, you know, I don't know, probably thousands of clients.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:07:03.279
And and there's something about connecting with the person if they stay in therapy, because some people may not stay in therapy, but if you know, if I think about it, like on a societal level, um there's this thing called experiential democracy that Kirk Schneider, who's the number one existential person in the United States, and he'll be here actually on October 4th.
00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:03.839
Oh wow.
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.639
Um and a a close friend of mine.
00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:26.160
But basically, um he started this experiential democracy to get people who are like are polarized and have them talk to each other person to person, and often it can be a shift, not even if there's a change in values, but at least a respect for each other, and sometimes there's subtle changes in values, because the whole idea isn't to convince the other person out of their values, but to really listen.
00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:39.839
And I could bring that to just the individual or couple psychotherapy session, that there's something if a person chooses to come in week to week, and they get that I'm uh that they get that I'm open to what they're saying.
00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.639
So I'm gonna bracket my judgments in the back of my mind and just say, who is this human being in front of me?
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:50.319
And at times those judgments may come come up as part of the dialogue, but it's not out of disrespect.
00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:52.720
It's out of saying, you know, whatever.
00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:01.519
And so um uh and so you get to know a person human to human.
00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:01.839
Right.
00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:02.240
You know?
00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:03.680
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.879
I'll say one other thing on that because this is Carl Rogers uh is he's like my psychological grandfather.
00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:12.399
He's all of ours.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:15.839
I actually have a personal letter from Wow.
00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:18.000
Maybe more.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.000
My Mickey Mantle card.
00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:20.160
Yeah.
00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:29.600
But at any rate, um and this is what turned me on to the field in the first place, reading a book.
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.600
It was called uh Freedom to Learn.
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:32.960
I was an economics major.
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.840
My folks thought that was practical in undergraduate school.
00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:43.200
And so for an elective course, which I thought was going to be a lock, my senior, I read Freedom to Learn by Carl Rogers.
00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:55.759
And basically, he said, you know, that congruence and empathy and unconditional positive regard are the core to uh an effective relationship and a path to healthy living, regardless of what else you do.
00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:07.120
And congruence is the experience of as best as I can having a sense of what's going on with me in the moment, you know, and trusting that, including what I'm gonna say or not say.
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:23.759
Um and uh empathy is um being able to get a sense of where the c other person is at, and being able to, even if you disagree, kind of the person feels, oh, I'm understood, I'm seen, I'm heard.
00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:27.440
And then the third thing is unconditional positive regard.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:35.519
And this isn't always easy, um but uh especially that like I said, the two cases that man that was more difficult.
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:40.320
Um, but it's a sense of no matter who you are, you're doing the best you can.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:41.919
I'm gonna value you as a human being.
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.440
And if that gets across again, it supports a person to be more authentic.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:56.000
And the belief is the more a person gets into the deeper levels of authenticity, again, they know more who they are, they move towards health and wholeness, and they have more choices in their life.
00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.240
So that would be another way to say it.
00:09:58.639 --> 00:09:58.960
Sure.
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:04.799
What kind of like problems or challenges do you feel like this approach is best suited for?
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:06.879
Uh two different things.
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:08.960
One at least two different things.
00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:21.840
Um one is um well, actually, you know, it it's suited for everything because basically it's about process, not content.
00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:34.320
So it's a being present, being available, being uh uh uh with whatever the person's bringing in and then trusting that process, as I just shared before, internally, interpersonally.
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:45.919
Um and also moving into and having the um and which is having looking at my job isn't to fix anyone, you know.
00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:50.559
Um that that have the trust that they can fix, quote unquote, themselves.
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:55.519
But you know, but but my job is to hold that container and support and challenge.
00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.000
So basically, in some ways it fits everyone.
00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:04.639
But basically the two and I I could say what ones that would be hard to deal with.
00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:14.639
But in terms of on one level it fits anyone, at least initially, but I would say the ones it's best suited for is what I call people in an existential crisis.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:23.360
People who's really in a crisis in their existence and really don't know what to do, aren't centered, aren't grounded, have a sense of desperation.
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:41.679
And uh they need to be held and have a sense of, hey, you're safe in here, you're okay, and and that kind of faith and trust, even though and I I think maybe they and sometimes it is, sometimes part of the existential humanistic is it's inclusive, not amputating.
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:46.639
So sometimes the person may need a cognitive behavioral technique or whatever, so that's not against that.
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:54.159
But basically, so crisis-oriented uh material can often be good for an existential humanistic orientation.
00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:01.360
And the other is almost the opposite, that people who really clearly constantly come in, there's something not quite right about my life.
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.200
They're not in crisis, but they say there's something missing, you know?
00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:11.279
Um in emptiness or uh or whatever, and they're looking for purpose and meaning in their life.
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:17.679
And since that's the bottom line of you know, of the existential part, that that's a a good client too.
00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.559
I feel like you basically just described everybody.
00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:27.759
People are either in horrible existential crisis or they're sort of like the meaning of everything, right?
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.200
Is this the first time that somebody has said it's good for everybody?
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:31.679
No.
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:32.080
No.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:32.399
Okay.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.759
No, IFS was the only one that said it's good for everybody.
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:36.720
That makes sense.
00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:37.200
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.600
But existential music is better than IFS.
00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:41.840
Oh wow, you heard you heard it here first.
00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:49.440
It's actually two things in that, because they tell you where it would be difficult clients to work with.
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.480
So it's not, in that sense, I could say it's not for everyone.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:57.759
And also to be controversial, one of the things I like about existential music is the inclusiveness of it.
00:12:57.840 --> 00:12:58.000
Yeah.
00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.200
So to me, it includes internal family systems.
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:06.000
So I'm not going around thinking, no, internal family systems have their own theory, which is great.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:06.240
Yeah.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:12.879
But in existential humanistic, I'm being pulled to, oh, this is something internal family systems could do right now with my client.
00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.399
Let me have why don't you talk to parts of yourself or whatever it would be.
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:18.080
Um so that's a difference.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:18.320
Yeah.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:26.720
But in terms of clients, um, you know, uh a client that's two different types of clients.
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.320
One is a client that's totally unmotivated.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.639
Maybe they're being forced to come into therapy.
00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:38.559
And I could attempt to get them, but sometimes I wouldn't be successful in getting them to be open to therapy.
00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:40.480
And I would think that would be any therapy at all.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:41.919
But that would be one client.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:43.840
The other client's a little bit different.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:48.000
Someone who really does want help, but really wants to get the answers.
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:48.320
Yeah.
00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:54.080
And basically how I do it, they no, no, this isn't for me.
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.000
I uh I don't want to process anything.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:58.320
I don't I'm here for you to give me the answers.
00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:04.960
So they would need, and this isn't a criticism of it, but they would need to someone say who's a cognitive behavioral therapist and says, Oh, you do this or you do that.
00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:05.360
Yep.
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:14.480
So those are uh those would be the two type of clients that there may be more too, but those would be two types of clients that EH wouldn't be effective with.
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:14.960
Right.
00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:15.919
Okay.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.399
What drew you to this theory?
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:20.000
You got an hour?
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.480
The quick and dirty.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:31.440
Well, uh I grew up in Long Island in uh a middle-class Jewish achievement oriented family.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:43.440
And I don't even know why I say Jewish, because we were, it wasn't like we were this orthodox, but it certainly was, you know, uh it had an impact and uh even culturally.
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:56.480
And uh in my family, uh among other things, achievement and intellect were were uh were valued, and one's inner feelings, inner life wasn't discarded, but was definitely second place.
00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:05.039
So I grew up in in uh and my childhood was good in a lot of ways because I achieved a lot and I was pretty smart.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:11.440
And then I went to college, I went to the University of Pennsylvania, and uh it was the same milieu that I grew up in.
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:18.320
And basically uh I would go through depressions dur at different times during that and quite know what it was about.
00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:25.200
And I was still fairly other directed, you know, like having an economics major because my folks thought that was practical.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.440
And and uh I was saying that before, uh, wasn't I?
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:43.759
But I read Freedom to Learn in my senior and it changed my life because it said two things that just so resonated deeply to me that said uh I was the author of my own life, and that seemed kind of radical.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:51.200
Now, someone out there is you know being other directed instead of interdirected and interpersonally directed, but still going back to what's true for me.
00:15:51.679 --> 00:16:02.399
Um and the other is the way to get there is to move to one's inner experience and trust that and go from the inside out rather than outside in.
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:19.519
So then it's going from authenticity to actualization and in terms of actualization being uh what I want to manifest in the world that feels true to me and how I go about doing it, and then it's a constant interchange between the two because I could say, well, this feels right, but I'm still having trouble actualizing.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.080
So what do I pro need to process more in that?
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:30.399
Or I could be actualized and and then realize at some point, no, but this isn't really true to what I want at some point.
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.919
Or um yeah, things like that.
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:42.320
So so though, and those are two meta-gu what I look at meta-levels of existentialistic psychotherapy, regardless of what a person comes in with.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:42.720
Right.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.679
What do you feel like is the most misunderstood aspect of your theory?
00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:58.799
Yeah, the most misunderstood I would say would be um it's often, this is especially on the existential side, but it's it's often looked at dark and pessimistic.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:16:59.200
Yeah.
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:00.879
That's not accurate?
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:02.240
It's not accurate now.
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:13.519
It's not accurate because that's what I'm saying, in the even in the uh existential side, um that uh well I'll say shadow side on the humanistic side too.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:23.359
But on an existential side, yeah, it could be in terms of how people make choices and and um it could be uh dark, no doubt about it.
00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:28.000
But the thing is there's uh f freedom to choose.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:33.759
And so basically, like uh to be specific, like I know I'm gonna die.
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:39.200
So, oh God, you're dealing with life, death, that's so pessimistic, or that's so negative, you know.
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:40.799
When really it's not.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:46.480
It doesn't have to be, because it could be like, okay, that's the reality, it can be scary or whatever.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:54.319
Um, but that, hey, that really makes me mobilized to live the life I want to live right now, and to keep on evaluating that through my life.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.279
So that's really to me very positive and optimistic.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:02.480
But it could be like that, oh, that's such so that's be a shadow side of the uh existential.
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:14.640
A shadow side of the humanistic would be, because people go towards health and wholeness, would be almost like a fairy tale, like, oh, everything's good right from the beginning, everybody's good, you know.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:27.119
And so it doesn't move into even uh it doesn't move into, yeah, but they can be it's on a continuum and it can be a process to get to the good parts of who you are.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:35.839
That's maybe that and so um it can be a little bit kind of in the air, you know, like not grounded, you know.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:42.160
Um and rather than there's a process in the times of struggle to move towards the goodness of who you are.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:42.960
Right.
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:43.599
Okay.
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:44.559
That sounds nice.
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:45.519
I like that.
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:46.559
Yeah.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:47.039
Uh-huh.
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:52.480
How about are there any criticisms of the theory that maybe you actually agree with?
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.720
And it's okay if there's not instead of curiosity.
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:55.359
It's perfect.
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:15.039
Is uh I think uh especially it doesn't have to be, but especially in the writing of it, and especially philosophically, I this is ironically, because the whole point is to move to an experiential, to move experientially into what's going on.
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:28.480
And the literature, philosophically, I mean Heidegger especially, but Heidegger and Sartre, and also some of the psychotherapists in their writing, um, it can be fairly it I experienced is fairly heady.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:28.799
Yeah.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.960
You know, like what are they talking about?
00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:31.680
You know?
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:38.319
Um and the other, and I don't know how many well no, I think some of this is culturally, but some of it I think is existentially, wherever it is.
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.240
It can be too individualistic.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:53.200
You know, where uh what like they can be to me sometimes not enough in terms of what is the group consciousness and how do you deal with that.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:07.680
And and so that would be too c and I think there can be a growing edge on that in the field of more of a conscious kind of reflection on that um in existential humanistic terms.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:08.000
Yeah.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:10.960
And so, and I think that is real important, actually.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:18.079
Yeah, I think especially if you're thinking about someone making an individual choice, that's a that's a very American value, right?
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:27.039
So you wouldn't want to say that to someone whose family and culture, like they're very that their opinion is very important to they're interdependent with each other.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:28.559
So Right, exactly.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.960
And and to really move in that.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:39.039
And there is a part of it that actually I think this is from Heidegger, but we're beings in the world, being hyphen in hyphen the hyphen world.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.480
So we're always all interconnected, just like we're all always alone.
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:56.319
But the part of the being in the world can get really lost because again, so some of it's cultural, and some of it I think is can tend to be existential in in a weighing towards the individual type of uh bias.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:56.799
Yeah.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.359
If you were gonna rebrand it, how would you rebrand it?
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.839
And I don't get me wrong, I like because existential is existence and humanistic is being human.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.119
So what's better than that?
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:16.799
But I was thinking of it in terms of something that really is true to it, and yeah, the first word existential and second word humanistic, and that people could relate to would be choice and hope.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:17.599
Yeah.
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:19.519
Yeah.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:22.240
Yeah, maybe that makes it feel more approachable.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:22.640
Yeah.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:23.200
No, that's true.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:28.000
Would you like to do choice and hope therapy?
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:29.759
That would draw a lot of people.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:30.319
Yeah.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:31.359
I like that a lot.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:32.240
I would too.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:33.920
Good one.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.119
So uh close your eyes.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.279
I close my eyes too, so you don't need to be self-conscious, and take a breath.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:53.599
And then breathe normally and allow yourself to go inward and be aware of your breathing and your bodily and energy sensations.
00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.359
Where do you feel good in your body and where do you feel tension?
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:06.319
And be aware of any imagery or dreams or visions that bubble up in your consciousness.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.039
And be aware of your feeling and emotional state.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.680
What feeling or feelings are predominant.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:33.119
And be aware of your present thoughts, memories, intentions, attitudes, deeper awarenesses, or any other mental associations traveling through your mind body right now.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:46.799
And as you're with yourself inwardly, allow yourself to open up to what matters, what is of most concern or of concern, and what what is most present.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.400
As you're with yourself living in your life right now.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.880
And allow this to unfold from inside of yourself.
00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:05.839
And as you discover and connect, you can explore it with me in whatever way it comes out.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.599
And then you're welcome to open your eyes or keep them closed.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.319
Okay.
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:12.000
I'll try opening them.
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:12.720
That's fine.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:14.319
Yeah, that was interesting.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:20.079
And the reason I did it, and the reason I do it in general, is so there's a couple of ways I could handle it.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.279
But one is a person will come in, well, what should I talk about?
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:23.759
Yeah.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:27.920
So I could just say, well, take your time and see what you want to talk about.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.920
And sometimes the focus is just a way to kind of, okay, what is there right now?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:36.960
So when I think about it, I'm maybe I shouldn't I'm attempting to be efficient.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.480
No matter which way we did it, I think it's never gonna come out.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.200
Yeah.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:49.680
Yeah, I I didn't I didn't love that very much.
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:57.359
Um just there's like a lot of anxiety when I'm like actually looking at this thing that's like right here.
00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:59.920
So I was very aware of my like heart rate.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:08.000
Now that I'm looking at you, it's better, but um when I was just sort of like inside with myself, there was I could like feel my heart beating.
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.319
I had sort of like a wave of nausea come up.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:10.799
Wow.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:21.119
Um, because there's this thing I've been working through that like I've tried really hard to just keep it nice and nice and neat and tucked away.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:21.599
Right.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:24.640
Lately it's just been coming out.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:33.759
So it sounds like there's a struggle then between the you that wants to come out with this and the you that wants to know that doesn't want to.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:34.400
Yeah.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:36.559
So how is that for you, that struggle?
00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.960
Um it's not a winning battle right now.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:48.160
I yeah, I almost feel like whether I want to work on it or not, I like I'm at a place in my life where I almost have to.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.319
So you're talking about the you that doesn't want to face it isn't winning?
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:52.799
Yeah.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:53.279
Okay.
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:54.960
I think for good reason though.
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:55.359
Yeah.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:57.039
I think it's what what needs to happen.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:57.680
Yeah.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:57.920
Yeah.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:24:59.440
You're not sure?
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:01.599
No, I know what needs to happen.
00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:17.279
I think the hard part is that I am trying to um change the way that I'm in relationship to other people that I am no longer in actual relationship with, people that I've cut off.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:22.880
Um I'm I'm sort of like sitting here grappling with, you know.
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.920
Uh and you you laugh as you say that.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.200
I'm curious what goes on below the laugh and a smile.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:30.720
Rude.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:34.960
Um yeah, it's very painful.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:40.400
Um yeah, I've been in a lot of pain lately as I deal with it.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:45.519
Um uh I've rested very comfortably and like apathy.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.599
I almost turn into like a bratty teenager or something.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.920
Like, I don't care about anybody.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:56.240
Um, but when I move past that, I I care tremendously.
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:09.279
And um, I have a lot of unprocessed grief and sadness and um uh a lot of care that I've had to push aside in order to survive my life.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:10.960
Uh sorry to hear that.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:11.440
Yeah.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:11.920
Yeah.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.240
Some some feelings coming up right now.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:14.960
Yeah.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:17.519
So see if you can stay with it, those feelings.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.880
Yeah.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.880
Yeah, I'm even noticing where like I'm like trying to swallow it down or something.
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:39.519
Yeah.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:40.880
And good awareness.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:41.519
Yeah.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:47.920
Um yeah, I feel like there's all these like protective forces like, no, don't care.
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.119
Um and also like your life is good.
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.319
You don't need to like, uh you've made a great life for yourself.
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:58.079
Why do you need to like deal with these things that are right here?
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.880
Um but yeah.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:14.000
Um and it's there's like a lot of fear might not be the right word, but there's a lot of parts of myself that are showing themselves that like they're sort of like my shadow, I guess, is how people would probably understand it.
00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:15.359
Like, what do you mean?
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:28.400
Um parts of myself that I'm like too embarrassed to share with anybody else, ways of thinking about people, ways of dealing with things that are some like sort of mean.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:29.279
They're what?
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:30.240
They're sort of mean.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:35.920
Or like yeah, um, ways that I've maybe tried to maintain control.
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:36.960
And yeah.
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:38.559
Yeah, thanks for sharing it.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:39.279
Yeah.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:47.200
It would be, and again, I appreciate this is a podcast, but that did you want to share any of an example of that?
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.440
Yeah, well, the oh, see, there's that like nausea again.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:01.599
Um the biggest thing is um with my there's a lot of relationships, but how it's showing it right now is with my ex-husband, who's the father of my child.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:07.279
Um and uh I recently took a trip to Los Angeles.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:12.000
It was the first time I'd been there since we had lived there together before we had our daughter.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:15.599
And um I had all these feelings come up.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.039
Like I was like, oh yeah, we used to really love each other.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:24.720
And we used to go do fun things together, and we had like a really cute little life together.
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:28.240
And um, I really loved this person.
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:32.000
And um we don't talk anymore.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:40.160
He um we've been through like many other many, many iterations of cutting each other off or cutting contact.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:46.799
And um I don't know, maybe it's been two years since we've really like sat down and talked.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:59.039
And um maybe that's for the best, but um, I also when I'm actually true like with my emotions about it, I I would really like a relationship with him.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:04.000
And not a romantic one, but one where we can send pictures of our daughter back and forth.
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.559
Or I can say, Hey, did you hear this album?
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.839
It was it's so good.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:13.920
Or um remember that time that we did this thing, or yeah, and I yeah, I'm emotional, I know.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:14.960
Stay with it.
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:15.680
Yeah.
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.839
I've been pretty like mean.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:33.039
I don't know, but I just um he couldn't be who I needed him to be.
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.319
And um I was really mad about it.
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.000
And I wasn't able to see his pain, too.
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:46.640
So I got to live in this version of my story where he was the one hurting me.
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:54.559
And I was the like righteous one, the like therapist, and the one doing all the things that I I said, the things that we were gonna do together.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:57.039
And look at me, I'm doing all of those things without you.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:01.759
And look at me with the like shiny, amazing husband, which he is.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:05.599
My new husband is amazing, but you know, like, look at me, I'm fine without you.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:11.759
And um randomly I read a quote, I don't remember where, when it was like the opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.680
And I realized like how much apathy I treated him with.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.440
He would try to share his traumas and his pain, and I'd be like, okay.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:26.079
Um, and now that I'm like sitting with it, I'm just I feel so sorry.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:28.960
And um, I think I've pushed it.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.279
I mean, he has was his part too, of course.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:39.440
But like I've pushed it past the point of where we can actually like have this conversation.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:40.240
Yeah.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:46.880
I'm hearing two things, and I'm curious how much of it resonates or not, but there's a deep sadness issue with it right now.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:47.200
Yeah.
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:50.480
Uh in terms of what you really would like the relationship to be.
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.200
Uh and I'm just imagining for your daughter too.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:53.599
Yeah.
00:30:54.319 --> 00:31:01.920
Um and uh and then the other is and I'm not saying it's not true.
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:18.720
I you know, you're being honest with yourself, but it it sounds like uh more than regret, it sounds like you're ashamed of yourself or angry at yourself in terms of what did I why did I treat him like that, or just that you did treat him like that in the past.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:20.079
But I'm checking it out.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:24.400
Yeah, I don't I don't know that I I have a lot of compassion for myself.
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:24.880
Good.
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.319
Um but I I really did have some hard circumstances.
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:39.440
Like um, he's a recovering heroin addict, so that was a huge part of this too, and why I had to make a decision to cut things off to begin with, because he couldn't get his shit together.
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:39.839
Right.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:47.519
And me cutting things off got him, he I think he's got like 10 years sober at this point, and he's a counselor helping other people in recovery, you know.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.640
So there is a lot of good that came out of that.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:04.319
Um so and I was a very poor single mom trying to finish school and trying to work, and I was on food stamps, and like I just like I really like crawled my way to to where I am today.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:09.440
Um so I do understand and have compassion um for that part of myself.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:15.200
Um but I think that like we're both different people now.
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:22.079
And there's part of me that wants to like convince him that like I'm better now, I won't treat you like that, I'll hear you now.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:25.599
Yeah, and I just don't know that we're ever gonna be there.
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:30.960
And I I keep trying to like I don't know, put out the olive branch and it's like shot down.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.279
Yeah, and I almost have fun with it, right?
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.160
But but but you have fun with it, but also it's painful.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.279
It's painful, and so the sadness is what's really more dominant.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:40.720
Yeah, yes, yeah.
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:45.519
I think now, and I this is the first time I've let myself feel truly like sadness.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:46.880
Oh, I'm glad to hear about it.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:49.039
I mean, because it's real, it's real, yeah.
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:55.599
And for me to admit like how much I actually loved him and how much I still I still love him.
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:56.960
I still want him to have a good life.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:04.880
Um, even if I hear that someone's not treating him well or something like that, there's still part of me that's like, no, that's not okay.
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:10.480
Um like part of me wants him to know this, this version of me.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.319
And he won't.
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:13.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:14.480
He doesn't want to.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:15.440
Sure.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:24.400
And both regrets that this has happened and also sounds like some hope that maybe it it can happen, although you're not really believing it so much.
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.960
But it sounds like you haven't given up hope completely, or I'm not really sure.
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.839
Yeah, I see.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.119
Um we the this weird thing happened um when we got back from Los Angeles.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:42.160
We went to pick up my daughter, and he lives in an apartment building downtown, and and he almost never brings her to the car.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:50.559
And he walked her down to my husband, was like away so that I was like not anywhere near him so that we wouldn't, you know, connect.
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:52.720
And I guess there was a rave going on downstairs.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:58.480
You know what a rave is like a bit of a um and it it looked like he was walking right towards me.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:33:58.960
Uh-huh.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.160
And I he could see that I was like, What's going on?
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:03.680
You could have talked to me.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:09.679
And he sort of said, like, hey, and it looked like he was doing a hand motion, like, come with me.
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:11.440
He's like, There's a rave downtown.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:14.639
And I thought that he was like waving me over.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.960
And literally in that moment, I was ready to like leave my family to go dance at a rave with this person who's talking to me for two years.
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:23.199
Yeah.
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.440
And it was just like the weirdest thing.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:26.000
Yeah.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.800
And what he was saying is like, I'm not walking towards you.
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.960
I'm just like, don't mind me.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.320
Um, but I was like, oh wow, there's there's a lot.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:34.639
Yeah.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:36.000
There's a lot here going on.
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:37.119
A yearning for me.
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:37.760
A yearning.
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.079
Yeah.
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:38.480
Yeah.
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:38.880
Yeah.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.360
Yeah.
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:39.840
Yeah.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.719
You know, I'm I want to share something else that's going on inside me.
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:50.639
And that, you know, this is uh the third time we've met, and it's not like we know each other really well, although I've uh always liked you and your energy.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:59.679
But that um but that what I'm aware as you talk, it seems you're like that like I'm impressed by what I'm experiencing your resilience.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:00.639
You know.
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:01.599
Yeah.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:03.440
I get tired of being resilient.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:05.199
Yeah, I appreciate that too.
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:05.679
Yeah.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:06.079
Yeah.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:06.480
Yeah.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:12.480
I am very resilient, and like sometimes I just want things to be a little nicer.
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:13.599
Yeah, I I totally.
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:15.519
Yeah.
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:26.079
So yeah, and I did we used to talk about in our relationship, you know, if we ever split up, we're gonna be one of those couples that's like best friends and like it's gonna be the easiest thing.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.079
And so I think I was operating under that assumption too.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:35.599
And um, we're not, we're the opposite of that.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:41.280
And um I don't know, and it it feels really like loneliness.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:45.840
I'm like, am I the only one who's like I feel like he did this like a long time ago.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.840
He did this process a long time ago, and he's like fine now, and I'm over here all of a sudden, like what 10 years later, just like devastated all of a sudden.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:36:08.719
So um, and like and he also I don't think he even knows that I'm processing any of this stuff because I've played that like apathetic bratty teenager.
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.599
I don't even know.
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.400
I don't even know how I'm viewed, but and below that there's there's some heartache.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.039
I am very brokenhearted.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:23.519
Yeah, um, and yeah, that that came up a lot in my my actual therapy too.
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.639
Just this like not being chosen by him was very painful.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:33.519
Um so what's that?
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.440
It's that like wave of ick.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.239
It's so hard to even like get those words out.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:44.639
Um how do you feel that you got the words out?
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.280
Um, because I am chosen in other ways.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.639
Um I have chosen myself.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:37:08.800
Um I was telling my therapist too that like um anytime I have like a little breakdown at home, uh my husband and my daughter just like drop everything they're doing and come on either side of me and just like it's so beautiful.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.320
I wish I could just like show it to you.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:14.239
Like they know exactly how to, they're not trying to talk me out of it.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:19.840
They're not trying to, they just put their hands on me and like hold me and let me know they love me no matter what.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:29.360
And um and you know, I have amazing there's so many amazing people in my life that have like chosen me time and time again.
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.159
Yeah, um even at my ugliest.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.800
So um, but he really mattered to me and he still does.
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:57.679
So um, and he's like continuing to not choose to have this thing where I don't know, I have these like amazing visions of him like us all like having picnics or them coming over on Christmas or like just this thing where we're in each other's lives, and um it that feels like a big loss to not not have that.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.079
Yeah, not really struggling with it, dealing with it right now.
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:06.079
It sounds like you've been keeping this experience away from yourself for a while.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:06.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.719
Yeah, I that's sort of like what I have to do to survive.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.760
It's sort of like the laughing on top of the like most painful thing.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:14.239
Right.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:22.800
Um well, good for you for having the readiness and courage to face this very genuine part of yourself.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:28.800
Yeah, and like I said, it's just sort of like showing itself anyway.
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:37.280
So um, I do feel like I'm at a place in my life where I'm like able to sit with a lot more pain and discomfort.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:45.360
Um it's I think the hard part is just knowing maybe it's a little bit too late if I actually want to work on this with him.
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:45.840
Yeah.
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:48.719
So um that again is sad.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:49.280
Yeah.
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:49.679
Yeah.
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:50.000
Yeah.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:50.400
Yeah.
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:51.599
Maybe frustrating too.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.000
I don't know.
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.119
But maybe mostly sad.
00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:02.079
But I do think it will like um have a positive effect if I work on it, even if I never talk to him again.
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.599
Like it'll have a positive energetic effect on me.
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.440
It will affect my parenting.
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.400
It will um I don't know.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.440
Let's just it's just better energy to put.
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.519
And I believe that too, because you'll be coming to terms with yourself in a different way.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:17.840
Yeah.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.920
With what's happened, even though, yeah.
00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.039
It is oh, I think we just got a minute or two left or something.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:28.320
So to see if there's anything else you want to say.
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.360
Uh well, let me start out with that.
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.079
Anything else you want to say that you're aware of right now?
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:46.639
Um it's sort of like this overwhelming sense of like forgiveness.
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:48.159
Yeah.
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:49.360
Towards yourself.
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:50.480
Towards everybody.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:51.280
Towards everybody.
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:52.079
Towards everybody.
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:53.920
We're all like imperfect.
00:39:54.480 --> 00:40:01.920
We all we made some stupid mistakes and we had a really beautiful thing, and we really fucked it up, and um, which is really sad.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:02.400
Yeah.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:09.280
And maybe we fucked it up so bad that we just can't like dance together at the rave anymore.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:10.800
Yeah, right, right.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:18.239
Um, but that's the overwhelming sense, and it feels like I'm pulling on a thread of like deeper healing through it.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:30.400
Um it feels worth the feels worth the pain and discomfort because I do feel like it's going to like uh like you were talking about before, I thought like naturally move towards heal, like greater healing.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:37.760
It's interesting you said that because I didn't feel pulled to say anything at the time earlier when we were talking.
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:47.679
But I was in my mind was I wasn't as I wasn't so I was actually thinking, oh, there needs to be a a process or a path where you can forgive yourself.
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:49.599
So it was nice to hear you say that.
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:52.000
Yeah.
00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:54.400
Um, yeah, I feel like it's happening.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.000
So yeah, it's great.
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:57.280
Congrats on that.
00:40:57.679 --> 00:40:58.480
Thank you.
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:01.679
How are you feeling, Lindsay?
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.320
Um, I feel a lot of things.
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:04.800
Yeah.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:12.719
Um, I don't feel anxious and like uh horrible panic anymore, which is maybe a good shift.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:20.239
Um I'm definitely very aware of like my raw emotional state, but it's not a bad thing.
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:26.880
It's like very tender and it's right here, and I feel like I want to keep keep like chipping away at this.
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:28.880
Yeah, thanks.
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:34.480
I was really vulnerable and honest, and uh felt like a really poignant talk.
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:35.280
Thank you.
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:36.000
Yeah.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:37.679
How are you feeling, Bob?
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.880
I feel good.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:47.119
I I so appreciated your openness, Lindsay, and and and your vulnerability.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:51.360
And uh just enjoyed just being with you through the process.
00:41:51.599 --> 00:42:07.119
I didn't have to, there's I'm being an academic now, there's a rule of thumb that say less when a person's doing their work and say more when they're protecting themselves from their from you know what would be more painful or something like that.
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:12.880
Um and so I was just enjoying just being with what you're saying.
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:24.960
And it's funny because the one thing, what I call protection, in the beginning, I thought it was pretty funny because I said, uh, what's behind a laugh and a smile?
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:25.280
Yeah.
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:27.679
And you know, because that's a protection, as I see it.
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:29.119
And you said, that's rude.
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:30.880
Yeah.
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.360
Well, because we saw right through it.
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:36.320
I I wrote, I that was the first thing that I wrote down.
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.000
I was like, what'd you think about her laugh?
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.559
And then you point it out, and then she's funny again.
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:42.719
She's saying, that's rude, like another joke.
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:42.960
Right.
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:44.800
So she's sort of doubling down on that.
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:46.639
You know what?
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:49.760
I will maybe it was, but I wasn't taking it completely as a joke.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.639
I was taking that to some seriousness in now.
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.199
Like mostly being a sarcastic ass.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:58.719
But um it's interesting too, like in Stimatic.
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:04.320
Uh, you if you notice someone doing that, you'll ask them gently to say the same thing without a smile.
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:04.960
I see.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:09.519
And that's and I was like, oh no, we do that in this kind of therapy too.
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:11.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:16.079
You're you're reflecting what is I mean, I want to reflect what is to the best of my ability.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:16.320
Yeah.
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:20.800
And that's what I mean by process, is the way one's being with themselves and being with me.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:21.199
Yeah.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:21.920
Yeah.
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:37.280
One of the things that I was noting towards the beginning of the session when she was starting to really get into it, is she said something like, Um, I don't think we'll ever have that good relationship that I thought we would be able to have, like after we break up.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.320
And when that was like the first time she said that.
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.880
And you responded in like a, oh, so do you not have any hope?
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.480
Like, is there hope there?
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:48.880
Like you're checking if there was anything there.
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:55.679
And and then you eventually went to, like, she said that again for like a second and a third time a little later.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:59.760
And then you just like went into, well, there's a lot of harsh.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.119
Take there, isn't there?
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:05.280
And you like just started like going into the grief instead of like, is there any hope?
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:06.960
Like being curious about it.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.880
Was that deliberate where you're like, I'm gonna check and see if there's any hope whatsoever?
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:13.199
And if not, then we're gonna lean into the grief.
00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:16.880
Well, that's a long question.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:18.400
No, it's fine.
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.639
But when you say deliberate, it's really interesting.
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:26.719
I I guess you can say intentional, whatever, but that I I and it to me this is part of the perspective.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:28.800
And actually, it's not the perspective.
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.280
Everyone does it in their own individual way.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.400
Um, so it's part of an Edelsteinian perspective.
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:36.400
Um Edelsteini.
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:43.519
But I'm attempting not so much to go one way or the other, but to get pulled with what's going on in me.
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:48.880
And so I would say at that moment, um, I I I like what you said, curious.
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:59.440
I was confused the way that, or thinking the way you were expressing yourself, that and that's why yearning I think was a better word later on when I got in touch with that.
00:44:59.519 --> 00:44:59.679
Yeah.
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:03.360
But that, you know, so I was really curious about what there was hope in.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:05.599
And so that's what I was following.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:12.960
And then after that got clarified to some extent, then it was fairly easy to move to the heartache.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:17.119
Yeah, I was hopeful when you asked that.
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:21.360
I was like, oh well, maybe there could be some sort of, and then I got sad.
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:23.599
I've tried that's a thing.
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:30.320
I've tried multiple times to look for opportunities to go, like, hey, look at me.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.000
I'm soft and healed now.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:34.079
Like I'm amazing.
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:34.880
Let's talk.
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:40.480
And we've gotten close a couple times, and then at the last minute, he's like, I can't, I can't do it.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:41.519
I can't talk to you.
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.800
So that's where that's where I'm like, I don't know.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:49.920
I I don't know how helpful it is for me to like actually hold on to hope here.
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:50.559
Right.
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:51.039
Yeah.
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:56.000
And and when you say uh a sadness to me was the evident, most evident.
00:45:56.079 --> 00:46:02.320
And the whole thing is this is listen to what the person's saying, and then uh again, checking out myself.
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:06.559
So this wasn't a big thing, but near the end I said, is there frustration too?
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:08.079
And he said, Nah, it's not really much.
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:11.199
But but the sadness was quite evident.
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:18.559
And uh I don't know if you picked up on this, and it's fine if you didn't.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:32.480
I mean, I feel sad when I'm with you right now and what your sadness, but it was more of uh I felt very honoring of your sadness and felt very serious and holding about it.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.679
You know, I didn't want to do anything with it other than be with it.
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:36.239
Right.
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:36.960
Right.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:45.599
You mentioned, yeah, there's a lot of heartache there, and I think that kind of like was something that brought you even closer to the sadness, to the tears.
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:46.000
Yeah.
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:47.440
Yeah.
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:59.840
Um, yeah, I think that's really helpful because so many times people are like not okay with their own sadness or they're not okay with other people's sadness, and they're so quick to fix it or be like, well, hey, I feel hopeful when you talk about it.
00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:02.159
So you should be hopeful about it.
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:07.119
And think about the good times, or you know, instead of just being like, wow, this feels really hard.
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:08.079
This feels really sad.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.440
Right, right, exactly.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:09.840
Yeah.
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:11.840
And then is it joining?
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:13.280
And that's yeah.
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:19.039
Uh there was also like I think mostly towards the end, maybe the last like five minutes or so.
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:25.920
Um, to me, it felt like Lindsay was like she was almost being her own therapist.
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:31.519
She was saying why she, you know, she was sad and she was like, but this is this is my growth, this is what I have to work on, this is how it's supposed to be.
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:32.320
It's going to be okay.
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:36.559
So like, do you did you notice her like saying those sorts of things?
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:41.679
And do you feel like that's like a pretty common occurrence with this sort of stuff?
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:43.679
Uh no.
00:47:45.519 --> 00:48:04.239
I I mean, I I was uh it seemed pretty again authentic, I go for it seemed to me, uh well, in not that you didn't know it before we talked, but it seemed like a pretty free-flowing thing versus some sort of protection or defense or oh, I need to impress them or whatever.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.199
So I it was I just was felt honoring of it.
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:12.320
And in terms of I like when that happens, but it just depends, you know.
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.519
It's I tend to be a medium to long-term psychotherapist.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:23.840
So I'm also like like I like it when it happens, but it's not like, oh, you need to come to this clarity point.
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:31.760
Did it feel like any protection or defense for you when you were kind of almost like analyzing yourself a little bit?
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:33.599
Um no.
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:34.239
No.
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:34.800
Okay, yeah.
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:35.280
Yeah.
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:36.400
I don't think so.
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:43.760
Um no, it's more like it was more of a statement of just some of the work that I've been doing lately.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.239
Instead of being like, no, I don't like this.
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.039
You know, it's sort of like, oh no, stay with it.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:51.280
It's okay that you're feeling pain.
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:51.920
It's okay.
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:55.599
It's okay if you have a little mental breakdown at home.
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:58.400
Like it's okay to feel the you need to feel these things.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:03.039
You've been pretending you don't feel them for many, many years, and it's it's okay to do that now.
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:07.440
So that's more what it felt like than me like therapizing myself.
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:08.000
Yeah.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:27.440
And I'll share my experience of you right now, and you know, I'd be curious if it fits or not, or how much of it fits, but that because of your openness and also what I did to facilitate, also, but that you uh feel different to me now.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:27.840
Yeah.
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:38.320
There's a kind of a seriousness or a not even so much a seriousness because but a kind of grounding, a kind of like a a sobering in a good way.
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:38.880
Yeah.
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:40.159
Is that your experience?
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:41.280
Uh yeah.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:48.880
And like honestly, these are like even in the last couple weeks, it's the first time I'm actually talking about this stuff in it since the trip to LA, to be honest.
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:55.360
Um, and I feel like every time I actually talk about it, like I feel more like myself, I guess.
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:56.159
Great.
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:56.719
Yeah.
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:57.119
Yeah.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:49:57.519
Yeah.
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:02.559
Did that feel kind of nice when he was like, Do you want to talk about it like specifically?
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:04.960
Or did you want to stay just a little detached from it?
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:05.920
I wasn't sure.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:15.360
I wasn't sure if you were gonna go straight for it or if you want to, you know, or if we were just gonna like talk about it in a roundabout way, which is like sort of like in somatics, you can totally do that.
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.119
You can just be like, let's just talk about the feelings in your body, and we'll never talk about, you know.
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:19.360
Yeah.
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:20.880
Which can be helpful too.
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:27.840
But um, but it was sort of a relief to be like, okay, I can tell the story, a little bit of the story, so you know what the hell I'm talking about.
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:28.239
Yeah.
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:28.480
Yeah.
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:35.599
Did you think about not just being really direct and just like allowing the sort of roundabout way that she was talking to continue?
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:37.679
Uh no.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:38.400
No.
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:56.400
I I mean what it is is uh right, that's kind of uh and it's I wanted to give her the option to be more specific because otherwise I believe then there's more of a connection with the it's it's less isolating.
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:01.199
It's being with me in the relationship, and that's part of the healing process.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:22.559
So no, I mean, so I think that was fairly upfront, pretty close to when she started talking, because it was like, okay, I don't know why I I mean I got that she was in pain, but it yeah, I don't think it was just to me that's important actually, you know, that I want to get the context.
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:26.400
And you know, the context includes content to some extent.
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:36.559
And then yeah, and actually then I look at EH when it's done right, even though it's done verbally, is a a a bodily felt experience.
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:43.679
So in that sense, it's a it's a somatics from the verbal to the somatics, right than the somatics to the verbal.