Breakfast... with DJ Josh

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Welcome to Breakfast in Hell. This week, I'm joined by Josh.
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Josh spent his childhood in the Evangelical church, studied at
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the largest evangelical university in the world, Liberty University, and
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then became a Christian radio DJ, so to say he
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was intrenched in an evangelical culture would be an understatement.
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Routinely I hear people within the evangelical circles have a
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disdain for talking politics. We want to keep politics out
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of religion. They don't want it to be a part
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of a faith discussion. And personally, I think that's because
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it makes them uncomfortable. It brings in things outside of
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a nice, little controlled bubble. The problem is whether we
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want to broach the subject or not. Politics is a
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massive part of our faith. Most everyone that I've had
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on this podcast, regardless of comfort level, talking about politics,
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admits that the alignment of the Evangelical Christianity movement with
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specific political ideologies was and has been, at the very
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least eye opening for them. That's the case for Josh,
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a super smart guy that begins aligning what he knows
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about the Bible to much of what he hears at
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Liberty Chapel Services known as convocations. He surgically articulates the
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gaping chasm between the mercy, compassion, and grace and the
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Bible to the Christian nationalism he experienced regularly while attending
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Liberty University. The other thing you need to know about
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Josh is that he's an active member of an evangelical
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church currently here in South Carolina. He hates Christian nationalism
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and was definitely influenced by his time at Liberty, but
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he still holds to the core beliefs of Christianity and
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his journey should be encouraging to you, regardless of where
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you stand. So here's my combo with Josh. I hope
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you enjoyed. So, Josh, I know your brother better than
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I know you, although I know you pretty well, I
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feel like, yeah, I know that he lived in Maine,
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sum in Florida.
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You grew up mainly in Florida.
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I mean we grew up the same, same exact family.
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I mean, he's pretty. He's like six or seven years younger.
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So I don't know if you guys were him, he's
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five years younger.
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Okay, I said six. It's one different Josh.
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He's aid six or seven, which is significant when you're
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getting close to your mid life.
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So for you, that one year different to me.
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He was born in Florida when I like literally four
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days before I turned.
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Five, okay, so exactly five years.
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Yeah. So, and I was born in Japan on a
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Navy base and was there for a few years. So
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I was in Florida a couple of years before him.
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But as far as my memory, yeah, it's pretty.
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But so what's wild is is like your brother doesn't
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really remember much about the navy days.
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Do you remember the Navy days much?
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I remember the Navy days, Yeah, good time. I don't
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remember Japan, but remember when, yeah, we were in Orlando,
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my dad was doing the navy thing.
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You're the direct middle kid though, yeah.
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Oh yeah, you're the middle of five in every way,
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in every possible way.
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Yeah, or where.
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He's pretty slow to change change, uh, in life.
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I mean I just I was I adjusted, all right,
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you know, I think I'm more just like you know,
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by the middle kid, they're burnt out a little bit.
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I was a little bit different.
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Did you feel forgotten?
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Did you feel like, you know, older kids and younger
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kids got stuff going on.
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I didn't feel forgotten, but you know, my sister was
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the only girl, and she's the oldest and ended up
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being the most challenging for my parents. So that was
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a lot of attention right there. And then my older
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brother just had a lot of similarities with my dad.
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So I was just like, you know, the one who
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was weirdly into TV.
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I got you, and yeah, I hear you. I feel
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that church every Sunday.
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Oh yeah, Wednesday church every Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday night service Sunday.
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That's a big time.
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I was obviously pastors kid a Sunday morning, Sunday night,
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Wednesday night, occasional prayer meeting during the week. Guy as well,
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which is that's the big time for uh, for us kids.
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You Southern Baptist.
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Southern Baptist. Yeah, the good stuff, Yeah, really good.
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Do you like how early?
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This is a question I ask other Southern Matist people.
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Did your parents transition you from children's church to the
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big the big show on Sunday morning?
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I think I said, in children's church until I was
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like until the cutoff.
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Really oh yeah, Oh I was in big church at four.
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Oh wow, I was in big church at four.
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Uh.
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And remember distinctly my mom carrying me out of children
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of big church because I wouldn't stay quiet at four
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and I'm like, looking back, I'm like.
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That's not on me.
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Yeah, yeah, I can't get in trouble for this. Yes, crazy,
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I would never even attend that.
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Yeah yeah, yeah.
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From from the time I was for no nursery, no
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children's church, and we would have like some times where
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we do children's church occasionally, like kids would go somewhere else,
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but I was in the big I was in the
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big show. Do you like, do you have pretty fond
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memories of growing up in the Southern Baptist Church.
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Yeah, I mean it was fine. I mean both the
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church that we went to in Florida and then one
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went to when we moved to Maine had pretty like
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like cool children's puppets. Yeah, come on, I mean it
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was They had like a whole set built with puppets,
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So like, what what do you want? It was care
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Way Street for the younger kids, awesome avenue for the
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older come.
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On, awesome, can't help it's awesome avenue.
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Yeah. So I I really enjoyed that far. Once I
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started going into the bigger service. I can't remember what
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age I was, but I do remember not loving it.
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In fact, there was like a few weeks stretch where
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I just would like lay down and nap on the view.
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And then my parents were like, you're too old. No
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no one, no one else doing this.
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It's boring, man.
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These are long sermons. Yeah, yeah we did.
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It wasn't an hour service. It was longer than an
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hour it was.
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It was longer. It was just like a one service
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church where I just remember, I remember the pastor was
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a bigger dude, face turned red every week, and the
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most famous or like often quoted servant in our house
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was him screaming he was getting mad about how excited
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we get about football and sports and it's time to
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get excited about Jesus face.
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Oh my god.
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We would just quote that all the time.
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Do you Was he a fire and brimstone guy?
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A little bit? Yeah, I mean I didn't, not to
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the point where I knew at the time, but a little.
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Bit alter call, alter call every Sunday. Yeah, that's good
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Southern Baptist. Do did you go up front? When did
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you go up front?
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When was that? When was that?
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I don't really remember going up here. Yeah, you know,
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I prayed the prayer at home. I did. Yeah, you
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didn't go up front. Oh Josh, no, I did not
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go up.
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They get back right there.
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I mean, that's why we're having all these thoughts as
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you you didn't go up front.
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You did get baptized, but you didn't go up front.
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What about that that verse that I would hear all
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the time, if you acknowledge me before or whatever, then
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you acknowledged me before you're heavenly fathered.
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Do you know what I'm talking about?
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Ye?
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That burst that Baptist used to like make you feel
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bad about not going up front? H Do you know
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what I'm talking about it at all?
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Yeah?
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I do. I don't know what you're talking about. I
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don't know. I just never the church I went to
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in high school in Florida a little less fire and
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brimstone as far as like the vibe of it, but
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like there was a lot of like you need to
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be sure that you're really saved. So I just remember
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there are other kidsney youth group. I mean they got
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saved once. Yeah, that was that.
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That was the thing I always thought was ridiculous, And
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then occasionally it would hit me. So like I go
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to the summer camps and like everybody would go down front,
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and I would be like, this is crazy. There's ninety
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percent of the crowd is up front. But then sometimes
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they'd be like, wait a minute, am I really the
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real deal was that you were you were you in
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that doubt doubt circle.
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I can't say for sure. I never went down. I
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don't remember doing it. I I think I just like
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what there was. I remember one like I don't think
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it was even a youth pastor. You just like filled
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in for a few months. And he's like, you know,
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one thing I do is anytime they're praying, the pair
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them upfront. I just prayed along with him, just like
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just just be sure, to be sure. And so I
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did have that mindset for a while, and I'm like,
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this is crazy. I don't think God is trying to
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trick us to this extent, Like once more with feeling please,
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it's just a little fire and just.
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A little yes, just I call it hearing the hell
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out of you. It was just like this like constant
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barrage of like, wow, pray just.
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Which is so funny because I mean that's a very
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common expression in the church, is like this is not
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just about fire and just about you know. But then
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it very much about with the way.
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It's like, you got to be here's a big motivator, man,
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Like the church is like a lot of it. Like
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if you see when churches go wrong, almost all of
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it starts with, well I didn't.
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Want to be in this boat.
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Yeah, And so there is something to be said of that,
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and that is I think that's part of why we're
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here right now, why our generation is here right now.
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Like did you were you scared of the rapture?
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I don't know if I was scared. I mean I
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did think it could happen any second. Did you get
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to watch any of those movies, those fun I did?
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I mean I love the Left Behind books. I mean,
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of course, dude, they were.
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So that's wheelhouse for you because I remember being like
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junior senior in high school and you're like three years younger,
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four years older.
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That's wheelhouse. Yes, oh yeah, And I was. I was
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a bold Christian because when we did the class book
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report presentation in front of I chose.
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Oh no at a big public school, right, oh yeah
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you yeah.
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It's like at the time I didn't decipher what my
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teacher's face was, but now I know, Now I know
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exactly I got to let these.
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I think that's one of the biggest moments in my
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like deconstruction process, is realizing that the Rapture like was fabricate,
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Like it's not like regardless of what you believe about it, Yes,
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you have to do a lot of the legwork to
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get to rapture is real.
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Yes.
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And and once you realize that, that starts to unravel
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a lot of your childhood trauma. You know, not the
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Bible being real or not, but like of where a
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lot of that, you know, the seed of the fear
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comes from.
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Yes, And like even if if you know, if there's
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someone who still thinks the Rapture is real, like you
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have to at least say, well, it's because of this,
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this and this, and I put this together and I
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think it asked this, which is not how it was presented. No, no,
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And that was a big thing for me. It was like, oh,
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they're selling their interpretation, which is exactly what they say
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they would not do. We're Bible believe in Christians is
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you know, you know, and it's like, wow, they're really
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doing this with something as monumental as the rapture, big deal,
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such a foundation of like huge deal everything they were
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saying huge deal. So, yeah, that was that shook me
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a little bit.
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One thing that I yeah, it shook me a lot
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in my I was probably in my late twenties, and
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I was just like, wait a minute, I do think
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one of the things that's interesting about you and I
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both clearly grew up in this literal interpretation of the Bible,
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bit where it's like we have to believe in six
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seven or seven six days twenty four hour days of
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creation that Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale. But
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I think another thing for me was I started to
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realize like what you just said, which is, if you
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do believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, you
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really can't get to the rapture from here. And so
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it's it's crazy to think that growing up we were
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taught that this was uniform, everyone was just in this boat,
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and then come to realize we were in a very
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specific sect cult almost of of that, Like that's not
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a normal acceptance sur rendering, you know.
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Right, And I mean I've dabbled in a lot of
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denominations since, and everyone has their thing. It's it's this
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need to be organized and tribal and have these motivators
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and you know, I'm sure we'll get to it later
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as we talk about deconstructing, but I mean, I see
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it now people that left the church, like the levels,
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everyone's at a different place and they're trying to come together.
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It's like, well, now this is our new mantra, this
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is our you know, roles. And I mean it's probably
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most dangerous when you are using the Bible in God
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to scare people, but I think it's like very human nature.
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Well yeah, there's movies made about it.
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Like just so much of our pop culture is like
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what happens when the person in power tries to use
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you know, it's happening right now. So like it's pretty normal.
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And I'm sure i'll say it in the intro, which
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I'm not recorded yet, but like you're starting to kind
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of go back to church a little bit. Yes, Okay,
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So that's where we're headed. If you just skip the
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intro altogether, that's where we're headed, which is great because
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I think that that's part of you know, a deconstruction
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is only deconstruction if we don't try to rebuild the
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pieces of what we think. So you're in youth group,
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you're buying it pretty much all hook, clone and sinker.
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You didn't really question a lot of what you were being.
285
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Yeah, I mean I was pretty I mean there was
286
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a period of time so when we lived in Maine,
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and this was like third through seventh grade, okay, very
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different than the Bible bell that was the only.
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Kid formative years for May.
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Yeah, yeah, formative years. I was the only kid in
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school that went to church like that I knew of wow,
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and my parents were like, if anyone else went to church,
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they weren't like my parents were about it, that's for sure,
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you know. And so I there was a lot going on.
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That was the brokest. My dad basically he left the
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Navy early before retirement too, moved to main closer to
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family because that was gonna fix everything with you know,
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certain issues. It did not.
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Narrator, it didn't.
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It did not. But we were very five kids and
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working like just barely about minimum wave jobs. My mom
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was always work from home or stay at home mom.
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So we yeah, so we were broke. So I was
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wearing the you know, not fashionable cool clothes at the
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age is when people started to care because and the
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way the school it was like combined all the way
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through eighth grade. So I do feel like we were
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in these class with these younger kids that were more
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aware of that stuff than we were. So we became
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aware early on, like oh, I'm not wearing the right
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brand of this. So I was already teased for that.
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And then it's like, oh, and you're like a super
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Christian like so I was. By the time I loved there,
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I was like, I want nothing to do with it. Really,
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Oh yeah, I.
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But you were that guy that we all were taught
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like I was in Christian school, Christian Church. Everyone was
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like me, we're taught you're going to get out in
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the world. Yeah, you know, yeah, and everybody's gonna hate you.
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You were kind of living that.
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I was living. It's the only case so often we
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see like somebody is just being a terrible person, they're
323
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being a jerk, and all they're like, yeah, they hate
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they hate me because they hated Jesus. Was like, well, oh,
325
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it's a problem, but yeah, maybe I only say I
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was truly persecuted. One of the most harrowin persuasion stories
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of myself made fun of Maine was so cool. Sixth
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grade class.
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That's right, didn't have the right clothes on. No, I
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get it.
331
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It was rough. But yeah, when we moved back to Florida,
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I came back around eventually.
333
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:27.960
Yeah, well everybody was doing it.
334
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Everyone was doing it. It still it still took some time.
335
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.399
Dude. You were a radio DJ for a long time.
336
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Yeah, very long.
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And you've got a voice for it. I mean, come on,
338
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and but Christian music that shaped you. Just just some
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heavy hitters in middle and high school.
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Like, so that was the big thing. And I you know,
341
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I was at the point where it's like I would
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say things. I mean I wouldn't even I wouldn't even
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quote them now because I've at least mildly I'm still
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in it.
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I'm not.
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I'm not deconcerted any one that I can say. F
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the Lord again. But I did say that as as
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a sixth grader.
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Yeah, yeah, you used to full the full full the
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full one.
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Yeah, as a sixth grade I would have never I'll
352
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I'll say it now the time. But as a sixth grader,
353
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I thought I would have gone straight to hill.
354
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Right, And if you add the Lord to it, that's it. Yeah.
355
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So I was really I was really in it. But yeah,
356
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by I don't really so my wife and I we
357
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have a similar story. We got married to I. You know, yes,
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women that were girls, but I like girls. I was like, well, now,
359
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we were very young when we got together, and her
360
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family was very religious as well, and in fact, much
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stricter in mind than many many ways, and like we
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you know, we couldn't stand her mom for many years,
363
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how strict she was. But at the same time, there
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was like my house was very like kind of rigid
365
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and emotionless and like rigids is a little rough. But
366
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just like we were white people, is what I was,
367
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and we are white, whereas they were charismatic Trinidadians.
368
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A different type of concerns.
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So I just remember like the energy in the house
370
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and her faith and then I and like, you know,
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she passed away a long time ago, but if if
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we could talk today, I don't think we would be
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on the same place for everything. But it was something
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different and something that like did didn't impact me. It
375
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was like, okay, these are people that actually it did
376
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seem alive, yeah, in a different way. And you know,
377
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:37.120
I really liked this girls. So it's like she kind
378
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of liked that I was like a rebel, but also
379
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like I needed to be.
380
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A rebel as long as we stay with.
381
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It right, right right. So by the end, by the
382
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.600
end of high school, I was all in. I had
383
00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:53.559
gotten into relyant k obviously, I mean, but there was
384
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.799
a lot of I mean, Blindside was blind.
385
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:04.480
I saw a cornerstone. Bleach was Bleach Amberlyn. Yeah. So dude,
386
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.839
you you loved that music so much that you is
387
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.559
that why you wanted to become a radio like a radio.
388
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.960
Yeah, I was. So. There was a small station in
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00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:17.279
my town where like it was, I mean, they would
390
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.640
play ancient music. I mean it was just like.
391
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:20.720
That was a big deal growing up.
392
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.160
Was Christian radio wouldn't play what I wanted them to play,
393
00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.720
Like I was getting into all of the Christian punkin Scots, yeah,
394
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.799
like nineties and the Christian radio like wouldn't dare It
395
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.640
was like Avalon and Philip Kin and Michael Smith.
396
00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.680
Yeah. Well, the big station in Orlando was Z eighty
397
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.720
eight point three, all just the stut of contemporary Christian music,
398
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:43.279
which now like all those stations have gone to modern worship,
399
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:46.119
whereas like now you kind of like, well I kind
400
00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:47.799
of wish you just would play old newsboys like at
401
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:52.640
least something. But yeah, I remember hating that station. And
402
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.039
then so there was a station, other station, much smaller,
403
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:57.640
and it played old hymns and preaching and all that stuff.
404
00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:59.559
But on Friday nights they had a like a Christian
405
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.319
rock show by teenagers, and then it disappeared, and I
406
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.599
was like, Okay. Basically through connections, I found out that
407
00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:09.680
they would be open to doing that again. So I
408
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:13.119
started that show on with no experience, went on.
409
00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:15.200
So you were radio DJ at fifteen.
410
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.160
Radio DJ at fifteen, and I was all in. I
411
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.599
was like find going on the band's websites and finding
412
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.759
there's their manager's email address, like, hey, let's go Ky Reliant,
413
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.240
Ky's coming town. Can I interview them?
414
00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.559
And dude, you got to interview with all your favorite
415
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:27.240
bands at fifteen.
416
00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.039
Yeah, for the most part. Yeah, dude, that's awesome. Who
417
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.920
were you seeing live? Like, what's your favorite Christian live
418
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.200
show from your childhood era?
419
00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.759
I mean, I really do think Blindsie during that time
420
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.039
was incredible, unbelievable. Yeah, I mean I loved Amberlin Amberlin
421
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.559
or Relian Kay I've both seen. I knew the number
422
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.599
off the top of my head at one point, but
423
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.960
it's around twenty for each of them.
424
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.960
Like I've seen Reliant k probably a dozen times. I
425
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.799
am for some reason, I saw the Newsboys. They never
426
00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:52.759
were my favorite band. I feel like I saw the
427
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.240
Newsboys at least fifteen times.
428
00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.319
They're just everywhere I saw Newsboys. I saw Toby Max
429
00:18:57.319 --> 00:18:58.240
so much, Oh my god.
430
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.240
But like the Newsboys that I there was a little
431
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.839
bit of a transition. You're just young enough to where
432
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.440
like for me, the Newsboys ended when John James left
433
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.119
and they did Entertaining Angels a fine song, but like
434
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.279
for me, all of the take Me to Your Leader
435
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:17.960
going public, like these albums were John James who turned
436
00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.680
out he was on cocaine the whole time. Like the
437
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:23.400
shows they were putting on were amazing though, like amazing.
438
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:25.039
I'm not here to say yes or no to cocaine.
439
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.480
I'm just telling you the shows were amazing.
440
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.240
Yeah, and so like I just remember seeing them and
441
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:33.599
it was just mind blowing how what they would do
442
00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.519
to put on the show, Like it was fantastic.
443
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.759
Yeah, So I loved him and it really I mean,
444
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.079
when you think about Michael Tate taking over Peter F.
445
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:43.680
Peter Furler was he still did a pretty solid job.
446
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.880
Peter was amazing and he was singing songs when John
447
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.839
James was there, So people didn't know John James existed,
448
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.319
right because he was bald and like would sing and
449
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.039
it was Australian and they were like, no, that's just
450
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:53.920
Peter Furler.
451
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:54.519
Right exactly.
452
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.799
I'd explained that to your brother one day. Yeah, yeah
453
00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:58.200
it is.
454
00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:00.799
I did see Newsboys you years down the line, and
455
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.480
John James just came out to share his testimony of
456
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:09.160
about he got He still wasn't singing yet, that wasn't
457
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:09.640
quite ready.
458
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:10.920
Just kids, if you if you don't know what I'm
459
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.599
talking about, you know, Newsboys, go look up like Shine
460
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.240
performed at the Douve Awards and you'll see exactly there's
461
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.839
a guy who doesn't have an instrument and he's a
462
00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:24.319
full metallic silver suit that's like a disco ball, and
463
00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:27.599
he is moving at the speed of sound. He's moving
464
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.000
so fast and it was that for two straight hours.
465
00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:32.559
It was it was. It was a fun time.
466
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.200
Yeah, you know, there was a lot of like actual
467
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:39.359
good performances during that time, and Christian music was a
468
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.559
little more daring. And it's funny because you have Once
469
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.079
Michael Tate took over News Voice, it became a much more.
470
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.680
It's still a show as well produced, but it's just
471
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:52.240
like not the same. And I feel like that happened
472
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.319
with Skillett even before the Christian nationalism, and it was
473
00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.559
it was like once they reached a certain level, they
474
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.359
could afford to put on this huge show, but it
475
00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.200
lost all of the charm, at least for me. I mean,
476
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:07.440
don't worry, the Christian kids still love it. I mean,
477
00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.480
you have a Christian festival that doesn't book them as
478
00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.200
a headliner, has to weighe through a billion comments of.
479
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:14.880
Complaints and you and I should have started a Christian
480
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:16.720
music podcast where we can do this more, because I
481
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.680
could do this all day. But there's something that there's
482
00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:24.880
something about that late nineties, very early two thousands where
483
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.640
I don't think Christian music had figured out the way
484
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.839
to capitalize and monetize. And so instead of having bands
485
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.240
that were just this is the Christian version of Britney Spears,
486
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.480
this is the Christian version of blah blah blah. They
487
00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.759
were bands that were unique, like what DC Talk was doing.
488
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.000
They weren't like, what if we make music like this
489
00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.200
secular band? They just were made They were like Jesus
490
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.920
Freak that album holds up musically like it's unbelievable, or
491
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:53.960
like even like you know the stuff, but you know,
492
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:57.279
like Reliant K or MxPx or the Supertones, like they
493
00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.359
weren't going out and copying something.
494
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.599
They were just jars of clay. It's crazy that big
495
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:04.119
as they did, because if you listen to those albums,
496
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:05.759
it's like weird, yeah, weird.
497
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.440
And then I don't know what happened because I was
498
00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:10.039
I just thought it was I was getting older and
499
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:11.880
I was over it. But in the like two thousand
500
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.440
and three four, it felt like we started to turn
501
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.160
to Okay, how do we make the most money possible
502
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.559
off of this by capturing just they can only say,
503
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:23.880
you know, Rhese Roper from Fiber and Friends. It would
504
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:26.240
always be like we would have rather played just bars.
505
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.000
But by the end of the nineteen nineties we were
506
00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:31.720
making so much money playing Christian concerts. We did that
507
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:36.880
to subsidize our bar touring habits. And I think there's
508
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.240
somes to be said of that, Like you want to
509
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.559
know why all the kids that age are now questioning
510
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:43.640
their faith. I think I don't know. I think there's
511
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:44.440
a connection.
512
00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:49.039
There personally, like everything became less authentical yeah, yeah, yeah.
513
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.839
Yeah, Like it just became how do we take this
514
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.920
message that isn't it's more about making money? Yeah, and
515
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.799
put it to the you know, right now, what sixty
516
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.920
eight eight seventy percent of people in this country claim
517
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:03.599
to be a Christian of some sort and it used
518
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.079
to be probably closer to eighty five or ninety. Like,
519
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:10.920
how do we pitch this to the biggest swath, you know,
520
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.720
Southern Baptist is the biggest evangelical denomination in the United States? Like,
521
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.720
how do we you know, how do we January Jam
522
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:19.240
this or whatever it's called, you know, like, how do
523
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:20.400
we get new song out there?
524
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.880
And ten dollars love love offering at the.
525
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:25.839
Door age, I mean like whatever it's.
526
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:27.559
Called Winter Jam. I don't know it's called Yeah, like
527
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:28.000
it like.
528
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:31.559
That, we are starting a rival festival called January Jam.
529
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:32.240
Now it needs that.
530
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:42.759
January Gym is going to be awesome. So you get
531
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:43.519
you go.
532
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.920
To a you go you went to Liberty, right, I went, yes,
533
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:48.079
I did you know?
534
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:48.759
You're proud of that?
535
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.279
So proud proud of that degree? Oh yeah, it's I
536
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.400
put it in like a very large bold font at
537
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.160
the top of a roast.
538
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.480
Yeah, you're still paying student loans on that bad boy.
539
00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.079
I mean my great Gret, Gret great great grand kids.
540
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:04.319
It loves. Yeah. Yeah, And to be honest, I'm not
541
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.119
super motivated. It's like, no, I'm sorry, you gave that
542
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.240
much money to an eighteen year old. That sounds like
543
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:10.680
a you problem problem.
544
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:11.200
That's right.
545
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.680
You did not do the mask on that secured debt
546
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:15.640
that is not secured by anything.
547
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:17.039
I'm not secure, you're not.
548
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:20.279
So I could get a radio degree from a Liberty university.
549
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:21.480
What do you think was gonna happen?
550
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:23.440
Well, you didn't do any man, there was no spreadsheet
551
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.880
that said radio DJs in the Christian music space.
552
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:27.839
I mean, it was a very stupid decision on my part,
553
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:29.720
but I was you were eighteen. I was eighteen.
554
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:30.200
That's right.
555
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.119
Yeah, that's predatory lending, folks, is what that's called. So
556
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:35.079
you get out and you get a job to a
557
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.119
Christian DJ. So you're still very steeped in this. You're
558
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:38.359
not questioning anything at this point.
559
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:41.279
Yeah. Well, liberty is actually a kind of an important
560
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.039
time because it does. I didn't realize it at the
561
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:46.160
time because at that point, like that was probably me
562
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.480
at my most holy because you're in it. I mean,
563
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:52.640
it's like you are living at church camp. Yeah, twenty
564
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:54.880
four to seven. I did one year of it at CiU,
565
00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:57.160
and I hated it. Yeah, I hated it. I loved it, man,
566
00:24:57.240 --> 00:24:59.839
I love it, But yeah, I got I was did
567
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:01.480
israaded the whole time I was there. They have their
568
00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.279
campus station. But you know the thing about liberty famously
569
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.279
is just as political as it is Christians, I know. Yeah,
570
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.319
And so during my time there, we would have the
571
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:17.000
convocation three times a week, and I would say probably
572
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.000
half of those close to half at least were politicians
573
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:23.599
or people there to speak about political or like social
574
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:28.440
issues from perspective, And I really had never questioned a thing.
575
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.559
I mean, I remember arguing in favor of the Iraq
576
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.279
War because because that's what you like in high school.
577
00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:36.759
I'm you know, like I was all. I was like,
578
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.720
how green day? How dare you American? But you don't
579
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:43.480
even know what it means to wear the red, white
580
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:47.559
and blue. And we can disagree with but not my
581
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:53.359
president respect the office. So I was all in on that.
582
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:55.599
You know. But I defended the Confederate flag on top
583
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.519
of the state House in South Carolina in college.
584
00:25:58.119 --> 00:25:58.839
True story.
585
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:01.319
I mean so I feel great about it's just a
586
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:02.880
beautiful flag heritage.
587
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.920
Man. Yeah. So but while at Liberty and this is
588
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.799
really I am proud that I had this moment because
589
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:11.759
it was very organic. It was it was not in
590
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:14.279
me at all. I'm just listening to this these Republican
591
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.799
talking points and then I'm like studying the Bible NonStop,
592
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:19.079
and it's like, oh, they're trying to make these things
593
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.960
parallel and they're not at all. They contradict I mean
594
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.039
almost across the board. Yeah, I mean just I would
595
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.599
say the mindset. Sometimes at the conclusion, maybe you can
596
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.559
make a few, like on a very very few you
597
00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:33.319
might say, oh maybe you arrived at the right place,
598
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:35.960
but not really that often.
599
00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:36.880
Just because you're a smart guy.
600
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.359
I think a lot of people at the convocation probably
601
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:40.640
weren't making those connections.
602
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.440
Yeah. And I mean it's weird because everyone there, the students,
603
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.039
we didn't talk politics, like very rarely. We were all
604
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.000
about the spiritual side of things. Yeah, and I was.
605
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.680
I got involved in the Spiritual Life team in my
606
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.400
hall because like you have to have a prayer leader
607
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.720
and all this kind of stuff, and you have to
608
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.799
meet in these groups every week. And now my praier leader.
609
00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:06.960
My freshman year was insufferable, So I became a praier
610
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.680
leader so I would never be at another Is.
611
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.799
There somebody out there right now saying my prayer leader
612
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:13.759
when I was at Liberty was insufferable.
613
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:16.599
Were the only people who didn't like me were like
614
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:19.440
the older conservative people because I would and at that
615
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:23.039
time I was pretty conservative. Still, I was all anything controversial.
616
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:26.400
Two thousand and five in Liberty, you were you were liberal.
617
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.000
Yeah. I made a few jokes I did, like because
618
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.960
there was a campus pastor who would do the servant
619
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.720
about lessons we can learn from animals and he would
620
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.000
like character less and it was like such a stretch
621
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.039
and I so I picked these like very bizarre animals
622
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:41.759
and then I did like I did like a parody
623
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.519
lesson time. And yes, the horny toad was on the
624
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.440
on that list self control because.
625
00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:52.400
But he does a lot of othermselves. Yeah, that's of course,
626
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:55.000
it's not his whole identity. So that was a little
627
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:58.400
bit that was edgy, pretty borderline blasphemy.
628
00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:00.599
But other than that, I was pretty straight nearrow, just
629
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:04.119
kind of internally. So by the time the Obama McCain
630
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.839
election happened, while I was at that school and I
631
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:09.880
was finally old enough to vote, and of course I'm
632
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.079
not going to vote for a Democrat.
633
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:12.920
The anti Christ.
634
00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.440
Yeah, but I couldn't vote for a public I just
635
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.119
didn't vote, which I know is blasphemy to some yo,
636
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.160
But at that point, I still am proud. I'm proud
637
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:23.559
that I came to the point where it's like, I
638
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.160
know it is morally wrong to vote for a Republican,
639
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:27.480
I can't do a Democrat yet, but.
640
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.400
Yeah, yeah, I feel that. And also like there was
641
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.880
something about that election. I was older, but I had
642
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.480
zero money, and I was in Saint Louis, Missouri, and
643
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.000
there was something about that election that very much. I
644
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.119
remember them being on with Rick Warren, so like Obama
645
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:46.759
and John McCain worth, do you remember.
646
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:47.200
This, I do remember that.
647
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.599
Yeah, And Obama when they asked about his personal relationship
648
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:53.240
with Jesus Christ, which is a big deal to me
649
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.839
as a twenty five year old Christian, he was eloquent
650
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.440
and like I've been redeemed and all of the things
651
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:01.039
that you're supposed to say, like I'm in need of
652
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:04.160
a save. And then we got to John McCain and
653
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.200
he was like I was in a Vietnam prison camp
654
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:09.640
and the sun came up and it made this thing
655
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:11.079
in the shape of a cross, and I knew I
656
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:13.680
was gonna be okay. And I was like, what the
657
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:16.960
hell is that? That's not the thing that you were
658
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.559
asked at all. That's not And like I remember going,
659
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.359
maybe I've got it all. Like it wasn't a defining moment,
660
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:26.440
but it wasn't moment. I still remember this day very
661
00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:27.119
viscerally to.
662
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.880
Go, yeah, what's going on here? Yeah, what's happening?
663
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:33.039
But you were five years younger, like you were whatever
664
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:35.359
you were at that point, you were twenty what twenty one,
665
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:35.880
twenty two?
666
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:40.720
Yeah, yeah, somewhere around there, yeah, probably twenty twenty. Yeah.
667
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:42.400
I pulled the trigger and voted for Obama. That's what
668
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:44.440
I did in twenty five. Well, I know, right, I know,
669
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.240
I know, I know it was big, big time.
670
00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:47.039
Did you feel guilty?
671
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.400
No, I will say.
672
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.200
You know, at that point in my life, my wife
673
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.079
and I were on our own in Saint Louis, Missouri.
674
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.279
I think we made twelve thousand dollars that entire year.
675
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.160
I was working four jobs eight I got laid off
676
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.359
of three of them because of the financial collapse, and
677
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:06.079
I was like, we were going to church occasionally, and
678
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.279
I wasn't even feeling guilty about that. I just was
679
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:11.559
like trying to make ends meet. I was getting up
680
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.119
at two in the morning to work at ups and
681
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:15.359
I just felt like, you know, it was kind of
682
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.200
the first time that I was like, you know, starting
683
00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:20.759
to question on some of it, but not.
684
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:21.440
Not any of the major structures.
685
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:23.079
Which is where I want to go next with you,
686
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.839
which is so you clearly, you know, are someone that's
687
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.400
going to question as a as a human, it's in
688
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:34.000
your nature. Yeah, where do we jump from hey, these conservatives?
689
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:37.359
Which is and I'm talking a lot at this point,
690
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:39.319
but like one of the things that I kind of
691
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.799
realize and like what I tried to get like people
692
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.119
who are still very much invested in in you know,
693
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.319
evangelical Christianity, that I would love to for them to
694
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.079
hear is like your interpretation is wrong. I'm not saying
695
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.759
that's my opinion. I'm saying everyone's interpretation is wrong. No
696
00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:00.519
one knows how the earth started, no one knows the act,
697
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.240
no one knows. You have a hope, you have a faith,
698
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:06.279
you have a desire for there to be something bigger
699
00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:11.000
than yourselves. But literally the most you know, knowledgeable textual
700
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:14.720
criticist in the world would say, we don't know. And
701
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.680
so it's hard to extricate yourself from living an entire
702
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.119
life where you thought you knew.
703
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.119
Yeah, you know.
704
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:24.279
So when does that transition kind of start to take
705
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:26.119
place for you in your like in your twenties, are
706
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:28.319
you starting to question everything or just the political side
707
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:28.599
of it.
708
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:31.279
It's definitely just the political side of it, okay, And really,
709
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:37.000
I I mean it probably spills into like, oh, you know,
710
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.160
the rapture, like the rapture thing I had that was
711
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:41.559
my realization probably still also in college, so there's different
712
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.480
things why I'm realizing. Okay. People are presenting this as
713
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.039
like decided fact, like there's no wiggle room, and it's
714
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.240
very clearly an interpretation. Yeah, because you know, I would
715
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:56.039
say I deconstructed in the sense that I have taken
716
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.240
apart things that I was one hundred percent sure of
717
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.720
growing up and now I'm like, Okay, there's a wiggle
718
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:03.240
room there or on on the other side of it.
719
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:05.799
But I never deconstructed this since that to the point
720
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.759
where I left my faith. So I'm one of those
721
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.880
I'm still in it, and you've never been fully out
722
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:11.160
of it.
723
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.720
But what's the furthest point away you?
724
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.240
Like, when I say away, I hate that it sounds
725
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:21.279
like a illustration, like the prodigal Son. I'm talking like,
726
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.160
what's the what's the most radical version of you compared
727
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.400
to eighteen year old job? Like if eighteen year old
728
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:33.599
Josh could have seen, you know, eighteen to thirty eight
729
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.680
year old Josh, what's the most radical point in that
730
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.920
furthest away from eighteen year old Josh that we.
731
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:45.799
Got voting for a Democrat? Probably, But I think it's
732
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:48.200
now like there's a lot that I'm still kind of
733
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.720
figuring out how to verbalize and even how I stand
734
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.839
on it. But I think like for me to say, well,
735
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.319
the Bible isn't an error and it's not you know,
736
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.880
like I don't even know if I would say it
737
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.680
like that feels very niversal even to this day. Really,
738
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:04.480
But where I'm at is I'm kind of chill about
739
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:06.039
a lot of stuff. It's like it had to be
740
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.839
a six day creation, rest on the seventh day, and
741
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.920
you know, I've read both sides pretty extensibly, and I'm like, Okay,
742
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.359
here's the thing. You don't care I don't care. Yeah,
743
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.400
I do have a little bit of magical thinking in
744
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:20.519
the sense that like all the stuff that I think
745
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.640
has become like something to go to war on on
746
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.920
the right and something that has disillusioned a lot of
747
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:28.559
people on the I'm not really the left with the
748
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.920
people that have this is a word and become like
749
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:35.680
very hard to reconcilese like this part doesn't make this right.
750
00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:38.079
I don't. It doesn't bother me as much. I'm like,
751
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:42.000
I think either we're getting it wrong, we're not understanding
752
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.480
it because we're human, or some common you know, like yeah,
753
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:47.960
I just think who Like it just doesn't to me
754
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.000
what I've what I've really become is like I'm trying
755
00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.519
to like, we have what we have about Jesus' life
756
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.480
and what he said, what he did, that's the most
757
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:58.240
important thing. The rest of the Bible. I'm not saying
758
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.000
it's not important.
759
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.519
That's a very kind way of saying the Bible has errors.
760
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.079
What you're like, right, Like what you're saying is like
761
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.640
it just doesn't matter. Guys, like you're you're just you're
762
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:10.360
you're here in the weeds with six twenty four hour days.
763
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:13.880
Maybe yeah, maybe not. I don't whatever, Like I don't
764
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.840
like who cares?
765
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:17.400
Well? The thing is like, you know, the argument again
766
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:19.199
for people that would say, well, it's not a Young
767
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.239
Earth creation is kids not Like even you know Christians
768
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.519
who take this viewpoint is they're like, this is not
769
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.559
supposed to be taken literally, and they'll have their whole
770
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.760
defense and you know, yeah, and the other side is
771
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.719
like it has to be taken literally. How do we know?
772
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:33.280
We don't know.
773
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:34.039
How do we know?
774
00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:34.559
I don't know.
775
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.280
And the argument they make for why should be digging literally,
776
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:38.960
it's like, well, we don't know that either, like they
777
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:40.920
I've read all this stuff, you know, and I just
778
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:46.320
don't understand making that like the cornerstone of what you're about.
779
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:48.480
So that, I mean, that is a drastic change. It's
780
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:50.360
not as like but what I mean I told you
781
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:51.920
when you were talking about me doing this, I don't
782
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:54.320
feel like I'm I feel like kind of like I
783
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.559
have deconstructed, but when I look at other people deconstructed,
784
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.039
like I'm not at that point.
785
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.079
But everything you just said eighteen year old, you would
786
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:08.000
have been like you're a heathen. But I think that's important,
787
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:10.760
Like it's important for people our age. I don't want
788
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:12.320
to make you older than you are, but our age
789
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.000
to hear that every different phase of this is okay.
790
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.199
It's because it's where you are, because like you don't
791
00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:26.119
like for me, everything about thinking the Bible's literal, like
792
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:29.519
all of that. I long for a day where it
793
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:32.840
was just so easy, that that that's true and it's
794
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.840
just easy. But knowing that that's not that we don't know.
795
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.800
Knowing that we don't know makes me really frustrated in
796
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:42.760
a lot of people from my childhood, not my parents,
797
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.559
who were really grace based and never were like God
798
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:47.519
said it, I believe it. That settles it. That's not
799
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.199
who they were. My parents are very nuanced and wonderful.
800
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.639
But does it not make you frustrated it how many
801
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:57.679
times you were told Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night
802
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:03.559
things that were just snipulative, blatantly faulse or not biblical
803
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:03.920
at all.
804
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:06.840
Yes, I would say. The two things that really kind
805
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:12.119
of define where I'm at now is that I recognize
806
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:16.079
there is no universal truth in the sense that we
807
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:16.719
can grasp it.
808
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:17.480
That's right, we don't know.
809
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:20.920
I probably still believe there is a universal truth. I
810
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:22.519
don't think we can grasp it, and I don't think
811
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.119
the Bible gives us the tools to do it, or
812
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:29.360
that's even what it's there for. So I think recognizing
813
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.639
that the things that were presented that way were people's interpretation,
814
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.119
and like, oh, there was ten other interpretations that are
815
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.159
happening right now, and then there's a bunch throughout history,
816
00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:40.599
and then there's a bunch more to come, and there's
817
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:44.119
so much coloring how you got there. That's outside of
818
00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:47.760
the Bible and that's your culture, your back whatever, and
819
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:49.880
so it's like that, actually, to me is a cool
820
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:53.239
thing that we are finding God together, but it's not
821
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:55.159
how people want to approach things because it is it's
822
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.519
also inconvenient. I mean, I'll get that. I'll give you that.
823
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.000
It's inconvenient because it's very nice to just have here,
824
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.440
there's our guardrails, you know, here's our the steps we take.
825
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:05.159
And then I don't think the Bible was written that way.
826
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.559
I don't think we can handle it that way. So
827
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:08.719
that was a big one for me.
828
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.519
How does that affect how you parent when you know
829
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.360
you just said, at least right now, like, hey, we
830
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:18.480
don't most of this, Like I can talk about God
831
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:19.639
and Jesus with my kids.
832
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:21.480
You have two wonderful kids.
833
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:25.480
Yeah, but you're you clearly aren't going to be someone
834
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:28.280
that's like, well, then the rapture's gonna happen, and then
835
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:29.840
like sit down here, wonder.
836
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:31.239
Let me tell you about how the rap, how the
837
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:31.840
blah blah.
838
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:35.000
Blah, Like yeah, I think it's I mean, it's definitely.
839
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:38.039
I think it's a harder way to parents harder, and
840
00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:40.639
there's a lot and it's it has to be. People
841
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.360
feel differently about this. I'll see some parents approaching things
842
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:47.000
when I'm like, I think they're too young to introduce
843
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.400
all that nuance to them. Also, I don't need to,
844
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.920
Like I have not mentioned Hell or the devil or
845
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:58.960
any of those ideas to my children. No, yes, which
846
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:01.119
I mean, I don't remember a time I didn't know
847
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:01.960
about those things.
848
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:06.000
Oh no kidding, I know about Hell early. Oh yeah,
849
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:06.920
yeah for sure.
850
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.440
And even just like some of the harder things to
851
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:11.360
grasp in the Bible like that, I don't think we
852
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.719
need to rush into that. And so I think I'm
853
00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:18.159
going to present what we believe. And I think our
854
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:21.320
home is already a place kind of across the board
855
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.760
where we are not afraid of questions. We are not
856
00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:26.599
afraid to disagree. We all like that's will present that
857
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.199
a lot, you know, because kids, it's easy for them
858
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:31.840
to become rigid too. Yeah, and it's like, well this
859
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:33.519
is not fair, this is not this, and then we
860
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:36.440
can well they you know, we explain different perspectives to them.
861
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.360
And so I feel like we're already doing that in
862
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:41.639
non spiritual ways and hopefully we can find a way
863
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:43.280
to do it. It's hard. I mean, I don't think
864
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.360
we have it figured out for sure.
865
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:45.960
No, I think it's I don't think you ever do.
866
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:47.039
I certainly don't.
867
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:50.320
But is in the in the construct of what that
868
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.800
means day to day for you and your wife? Does
869
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.760
that mean honoring the the version of the Bible we
870
00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:00.199
have as God's holy words start to finish you? Is
871
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:02.480
that a part of like like when you talk to
872
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.760
your kids or what you are, like you take them
873
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.199
to church or whatever. Is the Bible put up on
874
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.039
that pedestal or is just Jesus put up on that pedestal?
875
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:12.199
Because it sounds like you're a big red letter guy,
876
00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:16.400
like red letter Christian. So you know that's the big
877
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:17.480
rub is you've you've.
878
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:17.840
Kind of said.
879
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.480
The rest of it, I don't know, And and you know,
880
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:24.519
Paul's got some stuff happening, and the Old Testament God's
881
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:27.239
got some stuff happening, and I don't really know. So,
882
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.960
you know, I just know for me and probably for you,
883
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:32.039
growing up, the Bible was the end all be all.
884
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:34.239
It wasn't Jesus. It was the Bible, the whole thing.
885
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:36.199
I could pick out any verse to tell you why
886
00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:37.559
you were wrong and I was right, and that was
887
00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:38.360
a big deal for me.
888
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.840
Yeah, I understand that perspective to a sense, because if
889
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.599
we say it's all about Jesus, well, we know we
890
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:47.559
could we get to all tell some stories about what
891
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.960
people have been hearing from Jesus, you know. So it
892
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:53.199
is nice to have something to go back to. And
893
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:57.760
I do think, I don't know. I'm definitely not going
894
00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:59.440
to present it in the way that I was presented
895
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.280
to me. I think the Bible. I still think it's important.
896
00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:04.599
I still am. I just don't approach it the way
897
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:08.599
I did before. I think, you know, we talked about
898
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:12.639
it some a few weeks back off air, off air,
899
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:15.519
just you know, like how the Bible was assembled and
900
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:18.000
different things about history. They're kind of controversial about the
901
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.400
Bible we have today, but it's the Bible we have today.
902
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:23.000
This is more like back to what I guess is
903
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.039
magical thing. It's like, you know what, I think God
904
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.400
preserved what he wanted to tell us.
905
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.159
I really I so you do give give more credence
906
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:34.000
to the sixty six books we have.
907
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.000
Sure, I'm not I'm not saying that there weren't political
908
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:39.920
reasons that other books were thrown. Did we get it
909
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.199
all right? I don't know, but this is what we have.
910
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:47.840
And even that feels like I am terrified to say it,
911
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:52.840
but I just have to be I had to be
912
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.079
realistic about it. I understand there was a lot of
913
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:57.519
and I don't feel like we address those like whenever
914
00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:59.039
those things are kind of brought up, it's just kind
915
00:40:59.039 --> 00:40:59.880
of like, well, you.
916
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.840
Know, you know what are the Galatians is on the
917
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.719
JV team. It's just we don't look we got it.
918
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:07.559
It's pretty sure, Prow wish you be here. I don't
919
00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:09.239
know though, for sure.
920
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.280
I mean the the whole the verse about everything in
921
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.320
scriptures being God reading this and Timothy is Timothy written
922
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:17.880
by Paul at a time where he did not he
923
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:19.599
was not like I'm writing the Bible right now.
924
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:20.440
That's exactly right.
925
00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:22.239
But I think that's the thing is is if we
926
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:27.079
really would do literal like you know, when and who
927
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.239
are being written to and when it's being written is
928
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:33.239
super important. And I don't think we I don't think
929
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:35.760
people really want a history lesson like they they should
930
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:38.519
want about how a lot of this stuff happens is
931
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:41.159
written to three hundred years afterwards and it was passed
932
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.320
down through oral tradition, right right, you know.
933
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:45.360
I mean I think there are some people that day
934
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.639
and and there are like I like a pastor who's
935
00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:50.199
going to give some historical context. Some will do it,
936
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:52.440
but there's a there's a limit. I mean, you know,
937
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:55.719
yeah we got time, you know, well exactly.
938
00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:56.840
Yeah. You don't want to be in one of those
939
00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:00.360
church services, you know where they you know what the
940
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.159
last straw for me in church was when we started
941
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:04.639
singing all the songs at the end. That was it
942
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:06.320
had nothing to do with my believe about the Bible.
943
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:08.679
It's like the sermons finished and I got five songs too.
944
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:10.519
There's no way I can't my mind.
945
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.960
Can see that's where we I love oh man, yeah,
946
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:17.400
I'm in it only like so we we have gotten
947
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:20.400
back to church and my only complaint is the worship show.
948
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.559
Well, how first of all, I do want to talk
949
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.400
about that because for me, that was like the place
950
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:26.719
where I noticed hypocrites the most, or like in my head,
951
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.199
like I was so cynical about it. Yes that I
952
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:31.840
hated it so much, But when did you stop going
953
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:32.239
to church?
954
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:38.119
Really just I think right before COVID and so we
955
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:40.079
did not make the decision to stop going to church.
956
00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:42.719
We have always found a church that we liked enough.
957
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.760
So I mean to really summarize, we know what's happened
958
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:48.559
in politics in the last few years, that there were
959
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.599
things that we can now look at our childhood and
960
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:53.360
upbringing and the you know, things that are happening that
961
00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:57.880
were clearly Christian nationalism, clearly mixing politics in church. I
962
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:00.679
just didn't have the awareness. And then like the mag
963
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.800
of it all, you can't you can't not have the
964
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:04.440
awareness of what's happening. You can't ignore it.
965
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.280
Six seems a pretty big cornerstone for a lot of us.
966
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:09.079
I think, yeah, And I think, mean, here's the thing.
967
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:12.519
You meet people at church that are great people as
968
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.559
far as in one on one what they will do
969
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:19.880
they're they're very giving and generous in those situations. Yea,
970
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.199
even even to the people that they're going to go
971
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.639
say terrible stuff about on Facebook. It's I mean, it
972
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:28.360
blows my mind. And that was the problem is I
973
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.159
would meet these people, I would see I'm like, they're
974
00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:32.079
a better Christian than I am. And then you get them,
975
00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:33.679
you see them on Facebook, it's like, oh, but they
976
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:37.480
are very hateful and they're doing in the name of Jesus. Yes, yes,
977
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:40.800
So that that was the big thing for me, is
978
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:44.239
we are all supposedly following the same Jesus. We're all
979
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:47.360
supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit at the
980
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.039
very you know, foundation of How are we so different?
981
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.639
First of all, but also you were like, it's so
982
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.199
clear to me that that's so clear I think to
983
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:57.800
most of us, a lot of us, that this Trump
984
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:02.559
movement is the exact opposite of everything Jesus it was about.
985
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:04.880
And the fact that they're not seeing it, I mean
986
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.400
it showed me a lot. So we like, we literally
987
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:10.760
we had our daughter in January twenty twenty. We weren't
988
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:13.239
rushing back to church at that point. And then afterwards
989
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.199
the COVID started and we were just like, Okay, it
990
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.679
feels like time for a break. I also, we don't
991
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:19.760
need to get into everything that about Christian radio. But
992
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:23.960
by the end, I was very jaded, very disillusioned, treated
993
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.679
kind of badly because I wasn't I think it was
994
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:28.960
partly that I wasn't following Trump.
995
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.400
The political stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, no, that's tough.
996
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.119
But do you do you think that's changed or you've
997
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:36.079
just gotten over it and decided you found a church
998
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:36.840
that doesn't.
999
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.199
Have that has changed and it still bothers me.
1000
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:42.000
Does the church you go to now have those bones
1001
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:42.199
in it?
1002
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.119
Like have that struck Like that's I'm just I'm maybe
1003
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:48.599
I'm imprinting a little like for me everything you said,
1004
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.079
I was like, preach yeah, And you know, my wife
1005
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.920
and I started looking at different churches and then I
1006
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:55.840
finally was like, what am I trying to do here?
1007
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.119
I feel like I'm square peg round holding this thing.
1008
00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:02.960
There is just all of these the structure. If I
1009
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:05.079
go back and look at the structure of this church,
1010
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:07.960
it's just like that other one that it's just not
1011
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.679
as loud, And it drove me nuts. So are you
1012
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.599
just like you know what the people are? The problem?
1013
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.199
The gospel is still great. I don't care about this,
1014
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.000
you know, ancillary stuff. I'm just back in because it's
1015
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:20.840
where I should be. Or if you found a one
1016
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:22.280
that you don't feel like, is that way.
1017
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.519
Uh well, still to be determined. So far, so good.
1018
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:29.440
It's definitely not political on the surface, which I like.
1019
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:33.159
I think that, Yeah, I when we never made the
1020
00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:34.920
decision to leave church. It just happened and we weren't
1021
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.519
super motivated to get back. It's still something that we
1022
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.079
want in our lives. But we're both very cautious. We're
1023
00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:43.119
both very like, we're both very I mean, I'm the
1024
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:45.239
most cynical out of the two of us, but we're
1025
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:49.119
both pretty jaded by what's happened. But for me, so
1026
00:45:49.239 --> 00:45:51.599
I guess I'm just like I can't control all that.
1027
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:53.639
I'm not going to compromise. I'm not going to go
1028
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:57.960
along with things I don't agree with. But if like
1029
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:01.119
I do think I benefits in our family, benefits from
1030
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.280
like pausing to worship and and the way this church
1031
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:06.559
is is more just like we go one book at
1032
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:09.000
a time, and I kind of like that more topical,
1033
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.599
not that there's not a single pastor and I would
1034
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:13.960
do the same thing if I was, I did the
1035
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.760
same thing. You're going to add your opinions. You're gonna
1036
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:20.599
like I certainly had a lot of confines on what
1037
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:22.760
I could say on the radio, but you know, I
1038
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:24.679
knew what I was doing. Sometimes I was making a
1039
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:28.400
point so that there's no way to get around it,
1040
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:30.679
and I think I just accept that this is this
1041
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:35.639
pastor's viewpoint in perspective, I think pausing to study scripture
1042
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:37.960
and worship together like I do it something.
1043
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:40.079
Do you think that should be like, like when you
1044
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:42.280
do that, it should be for that reason because it's
1045
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:44.800
like it's almost like meditation, and it's just a it's
1046
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.000
a net neutral. So they shouldn't be saying anything I
1047
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:50.639
disagree with, But they also shouldn't be saying anything that's
1048
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.199
political that I agree with that could rock the boat.
1049
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:55.159
I'm a little torn on it.
1050
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:55.360
You know.
1051
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.079
I would love a church that does speak out on
1052
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:03.440
certain issues. But it's it's very hard because I've already
1053
00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:06.760
like I've already, like I mentioned earlier, on the left
1054
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:09.199
side of things, I don't I don't want to be
1055
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.960
a partisan person. I will probably never vote for a
1056
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.800
Republican unless something truly crazy happens, But as it stands out,
1057
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:19.400
you know, but you know, there were there are things
1058
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.920
that Biden did and that Kamalo was saying that certainly
1059
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.039
I did not agree with, of course, and the way
1060
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:29.480
it became very like we must support Blue no matter
1061
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:32.199
who we must, you know, like there were compromises being
1062
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.280
made by Christians and that respect that, of course. And
1063
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:37.800
so I think once you get to where I'm going
1064
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:39.480
to speak to every political thing in this thing, you
1065
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:41.280
get in the culture wars and it's become you get
1066
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.960
really distracted. I do think the best version of ourselves
1067
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.119
as Christians comes when we're like, we're a community. We
1068
00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:52.280
take care of each other. Hopefully that spills over to
1069
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:55.639
other people. We study the Bible, we worship together and
1070
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.519
then and don't spend so much time thinking about what
1071
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.480
we're mad about, even if we're mad about the things.
1072
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.440
Yeah fair and I because hopefully it changes is enough
1073
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.480
as people that you know, I.
1074
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.280
Would and this is not an argument podcast, I would,
1075
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:12.880
you know. For me, I do think that there are
1076
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.320
some things, some truths that are universal, and I don't
1077
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.000
think it's what in the same way that I was
1078
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.239
taught as a kid about absolute truths and moral relativism.
1079
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:25.199
I think the universal truths is are things like mercy
1080
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:28.480
and compassion and caring for the least of these. And
1081
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:33.119
so for me, the bar for a church isn't that
1082
00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:35.960
we don't say all of the partisan nonsense. It's that
1083
00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:39.840
you have to say those things you have like as
1084
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:43.320
someone who you know isn't where you are by any stretch,
1085
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.679
but likes to think that they have faith in something
1086
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.159
greater and there's something bigger out there. For me, you
1087
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:57.280
have to regularly be shouting the things that are universal
1088
00:48:57.320 --> 00:48:59.519
to people that maybe have not even read the Bible.
1089
00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:02.599
You have to you have to be weeping with those
1090
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:05.559
who weep. You have to be.
1091
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:12.960
Exhorting your parishioners to show mercy and grace to not
1092
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.639
to the person sitting next to them, to the person
1093
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:20.159
that would never sit next to them. And that's a
1094
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.599
very high bar for a church in South Carolina. I
1095
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:24.840
think it's a very high bar for any evangelical church.
1096
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:26.320
And so that's my hold up.
1097
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:28.840
I'm just telling you personally, like not forget the fact
1098
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:30.559
that I felt such a sense of peace about not
1099
00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:33.400
going to church. I haven't missed at one iota. It's
1100
00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:37.199
the fact that I don't think. I think the best
1101
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:38.880
we can hope for right now is a church where
1102
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:44.000
people love each other and they they don't get sidetracked
1103
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:49.119
with things that are very clearly national Christian national, and
1104
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:50.800
that's the best we can hope for. And I just
1105
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:52.559
I long for something much more than that.
1106
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:58.199
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think there are so
1107
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:01.039
many things that, you know, my pastor has said over
1108
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:02.519
the past several weeks where it's like, if you're a
1109
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.400
Trump voter in here, I don't understand how you don't,
1110
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:08.239
you know, which is exactly what I'm trying not to
1111
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:10.119
do in church. I'm trying to like reflect on myself,
1112
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:11.280
and I was doing.
1113
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:16.199
Very comfortable in church a nationalist.
1114
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.599
I think. So, Yeah, I mean, there are just there
1115
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.480
are just things that are so on the nose or
1116
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.599
it's like I don't understand, you know. But I think
1117
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:26.840
even if you go to a church represents this way
1118
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:29.559
and does not get in anything political, if you leave
1119
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.039
and you listen to cable news all week and you, oh,
1120
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.519
you're getting yeah, And so I think that's kind of
1121
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:37.800
the biggest problem. And they've there's been a lot of
1122
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:41.119
surveys to show it. There are still a lot of pastors,
1123
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:43.920
not the majority by any means, but there are a
1124
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:46.400
lot of pastors that are falling more on the right
1125
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:48.880
side than not on some of these issues. But they
1126
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.599
don't want to lose job. They don't know what, they
1127
00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:55.159
don't know how to fear again. You know, we of
1128
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.000
course were talking taught our whole lives about, you know,
1129
00:50:58.039 --> 00:50:59.760
not to be corrupted by the world. And what they
1130
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:02.320
meant was like, don't watch a movie with a gay person,
1131
00:51:02.760 --> 00:51:06.320
clearless than anything, was swearing they have been corrupted by
1132
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:09.280
the world's exactly. I mean, yes, And I've had this
1133
00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:12.920
conversation with many people close to me that are Republicans,
1134
00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:17.119
and it's like the Christians walk around like they run
1135
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.400
the Republican Party. The Republican Party runs them. They replica,
1136
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.400
Republican Party has influenced Christians way more than the other
1137
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:25.800
era correct and to the point they didn't even know it.
1138
00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:29.880
And there was JD. Vance talking about not so long
1139
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:32.800
ago about why I think it was like his argument
1140
00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:36.000
by why we can treat illegal immigran undocumented immigrants as
1141
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:38.039
crap pretty much and just saying like you take care
1142
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:42.199
of your own family first, and and and like and
1143
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:45.079
like very quickly you know, there was I've read a
1144
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:46.599
piece kind of responding to that, and it's like you
1145
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:49.440
was sermon on the mountain. It's like, who cares? If
1146
00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:51.719
you care about your family and the people, like the
1147
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:54.280
Pagans like you, you don't have to have any moral
1148
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.280
center to be kind to the people. You do your
1149
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:01.199
own fans exactly. So, I you know, I think that
1150
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:04.800
in a perfect world we would challenge each other. Like
1151
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.239
I think that sometimes because I believe, I mean, I've
1152
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:10.199
really have fallen. This is more of a policy thing
1153
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:12.400
than a moral thing. I do think the government at
1154
00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.000
this point America is so big. We need the government
1155
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.360
to make sure certain people are taken care of something
1156
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:20.679
and every place. Things like that. At the same time,
1157
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:23.000
you don't want to waste a bunch of money. That's
1158
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:26.159
where it's not being effective. So, like, I see what
1159
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:26.679
you're saying.
1160
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:28.840
But I think that there's a weird thing we do
1161
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:33.119
where we equate the one or two verses in the
1162
00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:35.840
Bible about being a financial steward with the.
1163
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:38.360
Thousands of verses.
1164
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.639
No, no, don't get me wrong. At the end of the day,
1165
00:52:41.719 --> 00:52:44.159
I don't really care about it. I care about it
1166
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.679
more selfishly as a taxpayer when you see about this
1167
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:48.679
many millions of dollars we used to this and that
1168
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.920
really it had minimal effect. Like there are times when
1169
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:55.320
that happens, fine, and let's figure it out. But yeah,
1170
00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:58.440
like this idea of dehumanizing people and talking about about
1171
00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:01.039
people just because you don't want the government take care,
1172
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:03.320
I just I don't understand how you.
1173
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.360
Or do your job as a church. Yes, do your
1174
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:06.960
job as a church.
1175
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:08.360
But even if you do your job as a church,
1176
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:10.880
it's still too big of a problem.
1177
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:14.000
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I agree. I agree that is
1178
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:17.039
a policy thing. But I do think that that harkens
1179
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.360
back to the idea that you don't have to be
1180
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.679
of a certain religion for us to all look at
1181
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:25.000
each other and go, we should be taking like we
1182
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.559
should be showing compassion to those who need it, and
1183
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:29.639
we should be showing merger. And you know what if
1184
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:32.519
if I show compassion to ten people and two of
1185
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:34.360
them were lying to me because they didn't want to
1186
00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.480
do the if they actually secretly had money or they
1187
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.119
secretly had means, and I but I show compassion to
1188
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.199
ten and two or three of them, or eight of
1189
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.400
them or nine of them were lying to me. I'm
1190
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:46.639
still thankful that I did.
1191
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:49.519
That's the exact kind of thing I'm talking about about
1192
00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:53.599
what Republican viewpoints have infiltrated church, because it's like it
1193
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.639
would not be controversial for a lot of pastors to
1194
00:53:55.679 --> 00:53:59.119
talk about, you know, we can't let anyone take welfare
1195
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:02.840
that doesn't asserve. We should be far more concerned about
1196
00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:04.920
somebody not getting help if they need it than somebody
1197
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:07.840
geening the system. Exactly if we know the genus system right,
1198
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:11.559
boot them. But if some slip through the cracks, as
1199
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:14.440
long as the people who need it have it, yeah,
1200
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:15.639
the people.
1201
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:16.159
That need the thing.
1202
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:18.679
What if someone gets grazed and they don't deserve it, well.
1203
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:22.199
Oh my gosh, Heaven forbid that happens, you know.
1204
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:24.440
So it just those are the kind of things that
1205
00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:27.280
have reshaped how I think. But I'm still trying.
1206
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:29.719
To And so your emphasis then is just like control
1207
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.400
what I can control, love everybody around me, and that
1208
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:34.880
means for me, like my family's better when we go
1209
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:35.280
to church.
1210
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:38.840
Yeah, now I'm going to small group. Yet I'm not
1211
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:41.480
going to any conferences right now. I'm not you know,
1212
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.679
I'm still on the sidelines.
1213
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.519
Are you still like pretty mainline in your beliefs.
1214
00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:58.159
So like Holy Trinity, One Savior, Jesus dying on the crossfield,
1215
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:00.800
there's no other way to like, that's it. Jesus was
1216
00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:03.159
very much man, He very much died and very much
1217
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:04.840
rose again, and.
1218
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.039
Such a got your question that I would expect.
1219
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:11.199
Now there we're fifty three minutes in, Josh, Now I'm
1220
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:11.920
breaking up the.
1221
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:14.119
Big glance like Joeloste used to when he would be
1222
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:16.400
just like, I just think the best choice for you.
1223
00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:20.320
I think it's the best choice for our lives. I mean, yeah,
1224
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:23.920
a journal like to me, that's Jesus did say no
1225
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:25.400
one gets through the bother except for me. So I
1226
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:26.800
was like, Okay, well at least he said it, and
1227
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:31.239
it wasn't all that's on him. I mean, but there's
1228
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.400
a lot of stuff that I will just say based
1229
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:35.039
on that, And that's really how I would answer that
1230
00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:37.719
question based on that. That is what I believe. If
1231
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:40.280
somebody lands at a certain place, I'm not gonna like,
1232
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:42.320
I'm not going to spend my life fighting with him
1233
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:44.760
about it. And I think that's also that was I
1234
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:47.000
think I said there was two things that a change
1235
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.360
about how approachings. That is the other thing you know,
1236
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:53.559
is that I really just respect that there are there
1237
00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:55.280
are people that are going to look through the Bible
1238
00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:57.320
try to find what they want to support whatever those
1239
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:00.840
they're predetermined conclusions. But I think there are a lot
1240
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:03.079
of people that are in good faith searching and trying
1241
00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:05.639
to figure out what God is trying to tell us,
1242
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:08.880
and we might arrive on different different places and and
1243
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:11.239
like you know, some of it is like I don't know,
1244
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:15.000
and it doesn't affect me at all. So so I'm
1245
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.559
not going to torment somebody.
1246
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:19.960
Fair And since we're doing gotcha questions and you said torment,
1247
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.360
like yeah, you believe in eternal tournament torment or like
1248
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.480
like the I like, because then it does affect like
1249
00:56:25.880 --> 00:56:27.679
all these things are going this doesn't affect me. Well,
1250
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:33.159
if if if there's an absolute belief in when I die,
1251
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:36.960
I'm either I'm going to be siphoned off as eternally
1252
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:38.880
punished or eternally blessed.
1253
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:40.920
Then it does matter very much, right now.
1254
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:45.760
Yeah, that is the ultimate apologetic of Christianity, right which is, yeah, listen,
1255
00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:50.519
when you die, there is a hard and fast cut here, Yes,
1256
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:54.079
this way separated forever together forever.
1257
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:57.679
And if that's true, then the rest of this does
1258
00:56:58.039 --> 00:56:58.880
really matter.
1259
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:05.519
I mean it does, but I mean, look, I mean
1260
00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:08.239
I've read both. I do think and I know all
1261
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:10.840
the arguments about why that's not a literal hell. I
1262
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:14.639
mean I I've definitely entertained the idea. I I do
1263
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.119
think there's more to back it up than not, but
1264
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:19.360
not to the extent that we were brought up in
1265
00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:22.800
the game, you know. But yeah, I do kind of
1266
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:24.480
land on that. But at the end of the day,
1267
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:30.440
if somebody feels differently, I'm not gonna you're it is
1268
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:33.199
is important, like if there really is a hell, then
1269
00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:35.599
it's important that if someone believes the right way. But
1270
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:37.800
that's not even what we're spending our time as churches
1271
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:41.079
or as American Christians fighting about. We're not trying to
1272
00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:43.760
get people say, we're trying to get people to, you know,
1273
00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:47.840
to not teach evolution and to vote for Republican take
1274
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:51.960
care of immigrants, come on. So you know, I and
1275
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:53.679
I think if somebody, at the end of the day
1276
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:59.000
rejects Christianity, as I understand it, I when you read
1277
00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:01.840
how the disciples were responding to Jesus when he said
1278
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:04.039
he was going to die, they had spent a lot
1279
00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:05.639
of time with him at this point, and they're still
1280
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:07.280
all telling him he was wrong.
1281
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:07.719
You're not.
1282
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:13.159
That's not what's happening. So I am not going to
1283
00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:14.960
say I understand exactly how it's all going to go
1284
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.800
down based on what we have. I wouldn't play. I
1285
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:23.400
would get. I get I think there's a lot. I
1286
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:25.760
think there is a stronger case for help if we're
1287
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:27.239
just going on the Bible then not.
1288
00:58:27.400 --> 00:58:31.199
But I think that's the rub though, is like it's
1289
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:34.039
easier to be nonchalant about anything that isn't love your
1290
00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:38.400
neighbor if you're not worried about if you you know,
1291
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:40.840
at the end of the day, does God heal more
1292
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:42.639
than he hates?
1293
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:45.400
You know what I mean? Does he is at the
1294
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:45.880
end of the day?
1295
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:48.760
Is our all loving, all knowing, all powerful God at
1296
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:51.159
the end of the day is the final decision one
1297
00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:56.559
of healing anger and healing darkness? And what are you
1298
00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:58.639
gonna call it? Or is it one of I can't
1299
00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:03.079
look I hate it forever. I think that's a big one,
1300
00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:05.159
because you know, that's a tough one. That's a hard
1301
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:05.519
one there.
1302
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.079
It is a hard one. But again, if if you
1303
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:11.880
are just going from the Bible, it's fair. You have
1304
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.159
the God the New Old Testament, you have Jesus. They
1305
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.639
seem very much odds with one another. It's I mean,
1306
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:19.239
it's I wouldn't say I have a comfortable answer. Of course,
1307
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:24.719
that makes anyone feel good, makes I I am always
1308
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:27.360
trying to find understand it better. But I think we're
1309
00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:31.880
never going to understand sin and holiness and wrath and
1310
00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:34.639
perfect love and all those things we might like. To me,
1311
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:36.800
it's like, there's no way you can send people hell
1312
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:39.639
because that is a very hateful thing to do, right, That's.
1313
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:42.920
A very it's a very the most it feels very haple.
1314
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:44.800
It feels like a lot, you know.
1315
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:48.760
But and I know this is a very old school Baptist, like,
1316
00:59:49.239 --> 00:59:51.159
you know, he is a god of love, but he's
1317
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:52.199
a god of justice, right.
1318
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:52.519
Yeah.
1319
00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:59.840
However, it is like there's a case being made from
1320
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:01.639
that based on a lot of stuff that we see
1321
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:06.239
God doing throughout the Old Testament, and if if you
1322
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:09.360
believe the Old you know, kind of the traditional idea
1323
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:11.480
of Jesus was sinned as our way out, well, if
1324
01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:13.960
you didn't choose the way out. So I understand it,
1325
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:15.760
and I think there's a case to be made but
1326
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:20.519
I mean I don't dismiss the opportunity or the possibility
1327
01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:23.639
that at the end of the day, Yeah, I think
1328
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.719
the love of Jesus I don't comprehend it. And I
1329
01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:31.159
also think I probably don't comprehend the weight of sin
1330
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:34.079
and the weight of ye, and so all of it
1331
01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:36.119
is like I don't know.
1332
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.719
No, I think we all should be a place where
1333
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:40.000
we don't know.
1334
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:41.719
I think a very legalistic person would be like, well,
1335
01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:43.800
if you believe there's a hell, you should be yelling
1336
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.440
at people on the street corner all the time. And
1337
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:48.039
it's like, well, I don't think it's effective. I think
1338
01:00:48.039 --> 01:00:50.239
at the end of the day, most people in America
1339
01:00:50.360 --> 01:00:54.559
know who Jesus is, but they know a misrepresentation because
1340
01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:57.320
of you. The best conversations I have is just like
1341
01:00:57.519 --> 01:00:59.599
I'm just people know who I am, they know what
1342
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:01.400
I don't stand with, and then sometimes we have some
1343
01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:01.840
good talks.
1344
01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:06.599
There's a danger in taking both paths. I think I
1345
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:08.239
think you know, I don't think you're sitting there going
1346
01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:11.320
I'm not taking either. I think you're you're very much
1347
01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:13.320
or going like I'm just comfortable in the discomfort of
1348
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:15.599
you know, this is either a hard truth or it's
1349
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:17.960
something I'm learning right now, or it it it may
1350
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:20.159
be something different for somebody else in my experience is
1351
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:22.199
different than others. I mean, that's kind of what I'm hearing,
1352
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:26.199
because I think there is a there's a very we
1353
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:29.599
see the danger of literalism like we see we see it.
1354
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.400
I mean, it's pretty pervasive in our lives, I think.
1355
01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:35.880
But there's also a danger in just going none of
1356
01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:38.679
it matters and not The danger isn't hell in my opinion,
1357
01:01:38.679 --> 01:01:44.400
the danger is not understanding, not educating yourself, not communicating
1358
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:47.039
and loving people well if you think none of it matters,
1359
01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:50.519
Like sometimes the hardest people for me to love are
1360
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:54.960
people that are big literalists in church. Is so hard
1361
01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:58.079
for me, Yeah, because I because it's very close to
1362
01:01:58.119 --> 01:01:59.840
me and a part of my past.
1363
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:01.679
I just want to scream at them.
1364
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.440
Yeah, And that's a dangerous place to be it because
1365
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:07.880
I shouldn't be screaming at anybody in that regard. I
1366
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.559
should be loving them and showing compassion, just like I'm
1367
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:12.320
telling them to do to people outside the church.
1368
01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:14.119
And so yeah, I think there's.
1369
01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:16.000
A danger that you said you read like any any
1370
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:18.440
specific things you're reading or listening to that you.
1371
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.679
You like, you know about this topic or.
1372
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:22.400
Not at the top of my head, No, I I
1373
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.480
will like, I know you love to read it a
1374
01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:28.679
good nonfiction book. It's you're a fiction I'm a fiction guy.
1375
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:30.800
I love a good long article, I love it. I
1376
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:36.639
love a good indefinite I love a transcript of a podcasts,
1377
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:39.800
you know. And then you know, at the end of
1378
01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:41.400
the day, I do kind of just stand on that.
1379
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:45.440
It's like what we have the Bible, we have meditation, prayer,
1380
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.000
Like I really am more focused on me, and maybe
1381
01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:52.000
that is wrong, if from some people's perspective, but it's
1382
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:53.840
like what am I doing to help people in the world,
1383
01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:58.360
you know, I think that there I have I've spent
1384
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:00.559
the last five years. I love church, and I've just
1385
01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:02.159
been thinking about all the things I'm mad about, and
1386
01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:04.960
it's like, Okay, well, here here's the reasons why I
1387
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:06.920
didn't want to leave and why this still matters to
1388
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:09.559
me at least faith a faith part of it. I
1389
01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:11.519
do think I would love community too. And I think
1390
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:16.559
any anytime you're you know, anytime you have a connection
1391
01:03:16.639 --> 01:03:18.599
of something, it's nice to connect with others. And I think,
1392
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:21.960
you know, spiritually, there's importance to that. But you know,
1393
01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:24.960
it's tough. It's tough because I don't trust anyone, so
1394
01:03:25.079 --> 01:03:25.960
I'm doing what I can.
1395
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:30.639
The anger's gone, but the distrusting is still very much
1396
01:03:30.679 --> 01:03:33.599
there because you've got a lifetime of right of liberty
1397
01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:34.920
and church and yeah, oh.
1398
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:36.840
Yeah, you know, the anger is not gone, but it's
1399
01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:40.719
I'm not I'm I I'm like, I'm not going to
1400
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:43.679
miss out on what I still feel like I benefit
1401
01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:45.119
from you.
1402
01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:48.880
Do you remember like just a ridiculous point in your child,
1403
01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:52.360
like a ridiculous apologetic argument that you were taught, or
1404
01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:56.159
a ridiculous song, or like something that now strikes you
1405
01:03:56.199 --> 01:03:59.199
as just hysterical from your two Maybe this is just
1406
01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:01.639
me that does this looks back at everything.
1407
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:05.079
Like, man, why did I Why did I not catch
1408
01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:06.840
it at that moment? Do you know what I mean?
1409
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:09.719
Yeah, no, I it all seemed pretty normal.
1410
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:10.880
It always does.
1411
01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:13.320
It's like I'm listening to f F H Big Fish
1412
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:14.280
and it's just normal.
1413
01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:16.320
It's just normal. It's a normal thing that I would do.
1414
01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:18.559
It's like, yeah, maybe I'm sitting in the belly of
1415
01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:20.440
the world gone man, you know.
1416
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.760
Yeah, I'm trying to think if there is I mean, no,
1417
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:29.119
I mean like old newsways boycott Hell. It was more
1418
01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.119
not like it wasn't necessarily outside the ordinary of what
1419
01:04:32.199 --> 01:04:33.079
was said already.
1420
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:35.320
But we got to it, doesn't he say we got
1421
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:36.039
to unionize.
1422
01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:36.639
We gotta u.
1423
01:04:37.760 --> 01:04:38.000
Yeah.
1424
01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:41.320
And then before DC Talk went rock and they had
1425
01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:44.239
their rap albums, which are great, Free Last New Thing. Yeah,
1426
01:04:44.280 --> 01:04:46.400
but do you remember I don't want your sex for now?
1427
01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:48.559
I don't want your sex for that, absolutely, I don't
1428
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:49.679
want it. That's from Free at Last.
1429
01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:53.159
Man, I remember Wheelhouse for me nine years old, blasting
1430
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:53.760
that time.
1431
01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:57.280
Don't want I don't want it?
1432
01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.679
Oh, man, come on, I would give anything to see
1433
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:00.480
them before again.
1434
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:02.840
I take my money right now.
1435
01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:06.119
One song show, especially with the recent news about Michael Tate,
1436
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:09.360
which is right, Kevin Max, Michael Tate, Toby Max sharing
1437
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:11.079
the stage for just I don't want it?
1438
01:05:11.239 --> 01:05:13.719
Yes, yeah, oh my god.
1439
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:19.960
Dude, that's Free at Last album is sneaky great. Yeah,
1440
01:05:20.119 --> 01:05:24.320
I personally like I saw them on that tour and
1441
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:27.239
the opening act was a little band called Audio Adrenaline
1442
01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:29.119
who had just released Don't Censor Me with a big
1443
01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:30.760
house on it. Nobody knew that that was not a
1444
01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:33.559
household song yet, and that was awesome. That was like
1445
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:37.880
an awesome place to be. Any thing that you would
1446
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:40.599
tell people going through any stage of this, like anything
1447
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:43.119
you would tell them that is just your wisdom, or
1448
01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:46.719
that any encouragement or anything just to if they're listening
1449
01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:48.880
to this and going, I'm really much where Josh is
1450
01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:50.360
because I get the feeling. One of the things about
1451
01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:53.440
this show that will be will permeate every episode as
1452
01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:55.760
a three line is someone's going to identify with the.
1453
01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:58.599
Person that's sitting in your chair, and you know, what
1454
01:05:58.599 --> 01:05:59.000
would you.
1455
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:03.119
Tell I think that at least what has become important
1456
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:06.920
to me is like it is, I'm finding it very hard.
1457
01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:08.920
Didn't you not be part of a group in like
1458
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:12.360
a really neat way? And so I understand why some
1459
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:15.280
people that deconstructed it's become us there's their own sort
1460
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:17.599
of tribalism like yeah, now you can't do this, or
1461
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:21.000
you know, there's no variation in this belief. I think
1462
01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:23.760
we're all figuring out. And if you still want to
1463
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:26.679
make space for you know, some kind of faith or
1464
01:06:26.760 --> 01:06:29.239
Christian practicing in your life, like I think it's so
1465
01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:32.519
worth it, and it's gonna be uncomfortable and you're probably
1466
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:35.000
gonna be just like me, where you're unhappy a lot
1467
01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:38.000
of the time. But I was unhappy. I was even
1468
01:06:38.199 --> 01:06:41.000
more unhappy, Like I felt like I was conceding it
1469
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:44.280
to people that are abusing it, not you know, treating
1470
01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:45.719
it with any kind of reverence. And they think they
1471
01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:48.400
have it all right, but really it's like an abomination
1472
01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:51.679
of what I feel. Like Jesus said for so and
1473
01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:57.719
you know when you drop the abominationation again, yeah, a
1474
01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:01.000
true abomination. So, like I, there are you know, there
1475
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:03.159
are a lot of people I think that you can
1476
01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:07.239
find that feel this way. Unfortunately, they they get burnt down,
1477
01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:09.800
they leave because it's a man, it's a terrible place
1478
01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:12.280
to be in. But I do, I do think that
1479
01:07:12.360 --> 01:07:15.360
there is power and sticking around if if it's if
1480
01:07:15.599 --> 01:07:17.599
like if basically, if you went through the deconstruction, you're like,
1481
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:19.400
you know what, this is all stupid and made up
1482
01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:21.679
and I want nothing to do with it. I understand,
1483
01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:24.039
I really do understand how people arrive there. It's just
1484
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:25.559
not where I was at by the end of it.
1485
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:28.239
And I didn't want to concede the whole thing to
1486
01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:29.159
terrible people.
1487
01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:32.280
So fair I love it, So, Josh, I asked you,
1488
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:35.599
I asked every guest to bring something like just something,
1489
01:07:36.039 --> 01:07:38.880
whether it's a song. I usually think of songs, songs,
1490
01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:41.639
you know, a left behind novel, whatever, it might be,
1491
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:44.679
like something that really you remember from that time period
1492
01:07:44.719 --> 01:07:47.079
in your life that means something to you.
1493
01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:50.599
Josh, it's so hard because the temptation here is to
1494
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:53.480
go with the funny. Like there I was so into.
1495
01:07:53.519 --> 01:07:55.400
Oh my gosh, but Bible Man. Did you get in
1496
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:55.960
a Bible Man?
1497
01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:57.840
And thank God I never in a Bible Man?
1498
01:07:57.880 --> 01:07:58.280
Too young?
1499
01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:03.880
But you know, vegetails is actually decent, Like.
1500
01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:05.920
I was at the tail end, Like silly songs started
1501
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:08.440
becoming ironically funny when I was in high school, so
1502
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:10.519
like where is my hairbrush? I remember seeing that at
1503
01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:13.039
a youth camp and being like, what what is this?
1504
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:15.039
So like I was just too old to really dive
1505
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:17.279
fully into veggietails, but better than most.
1506
01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:19.920
There are so many, like kids Bible things that you
1507
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:21.600
kind of like, oh, maybe the kids will watch this
1508
01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:23.880
and check them out, and vegetails is the only one
1509
01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:26.880
that holds up. Wow. Anyways, but I'm gonna go sincere
1510
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:30.800
we brought up five arm Frenzy, they are like actual,
1511
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:34.079
I mean, not all of them remained Christians. As we said,
1512
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:35.920
it's kind of hard to stay in the space. But
1513
01:08:36.640 --> 01:08:38.800
they were the real deal back then. They were what
1514
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.800
they did in their songs and some things they said
1515
01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:46.800
from stage, like they they were really risking a lot,
1516
01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.159
and yeah, it was there. They were booking the shows
1517
01:08:49.159 --> 01:08:52.840
because they needed the money, but they were they were
1518
01:08:52.880 --> 01:08:53.840
still genuine their faith.
1519
01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.159
And so did you have you heard their latest album?
1520
01:08:56.359 --> 01:08:56.560
I have.
1521
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:00.399
It's one of my favorite albums to date of any kind. Yeah,
1522
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:03.760
it's phenomenal, and it is in a time and a place, in.
1523
01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:04.920
A moment that's very important.
1524
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.680
It talks about gun control, immigration, capitalism, all of these things.
1525
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:11.600
And it's so well written.
1526
01:09:12.239 --> 01:09:14.439
I just wanted to shout that out, like it's until
1527
01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:16.640
this shakes a part is by five Iron Frenzy is
1528
01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:17.640
a phenomenal album.
1529
01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:20.079
I think it's the best they've gotten even more direct
1530
01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:21.479
with it. But if you look at their old albums
1531
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:23.600
they were talking about the stuff back then. It's just crazy.
1532
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:26.800
But really, every new day is the one that I
1533
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:27.159
throw on.
1534
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:28.359
And how many time's you see it?
1535
01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:28.560
A lot?
1536
01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:31.800
I mean, I mean so probably some I didn't see
1537
01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:33.399
them as much as I would have liked, probably six
1538
01:09:33.479 --> 01:09:35.319
or seven, which is still a decent amount. I saw
1539
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:36.279
every time I.
1540
01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:38.279
Saw them perform the song after this album came out,
1541
01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:39.880
with maybe one hundred people in the room, and it
1542
01:09:39.960 --> 01:09:40.640
was still amazing.
1543
01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:44.119
Yeah, because there are so many songs now where it's like, well,
1544
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:45.920
I know about the scandal here, and I know about
1545
01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:48.640
the worship songs that can be kind of tough, yea,
1546
01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:54.119
But this song it is church. But freedom means love
1547
01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:57.399
without condition. That's it. That's that is the line, and
1548
01:09:57.399 --> 01:09:59.079
that is where I'm man.
1549
01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:00.239
That's a good line.
1550
01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:02.479
That has done a lot for me.
1551
01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:04.279
Freedom means love without condition.
1552
01:10:04.399 --> 01:10:07.079
That's a great That's a great way to end it
1553
01:10:07.399 --> 01:10:09.079
because I think we can all agree with that.
1554
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:12.800
We should, we should agree with it, even if we don't.
1555
01:10:13.039 --> 01:10:14.399
That's awesome. Thanks Mane, thank you.
1556
01:10:17.079 --> 01:10:19.199
Thanks so much to Josh for his time here this
1557
01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:22.000
week on Breakfast in Hell. What a fun convo. Josh
1558
01:10:22.039 --> 01:10:24.079
shared a line from Rhyese Roper in the band Five
1559
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:27.279
Iron Frenzy that should stick with you. Freedom means love
1560
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:31.880
without condition. Talk about a powerful but loaded statement. Leaving
1561
01:10:31.880 --> 01:10:34.600
my conversation with Josh, it was clear that he'd found freedom.
1562
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:37.159
I think for some of us, much like Molder and Scully.
1563
01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:40.319
We want to believe in something greater, but the trappings
1564
01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:45.960
of organized religion, particularly Christians here in America, represent boundaries, exclusivity, hatred.
1565
01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:50.159
We see a giant, money making monstrosity labeled as the Church,
1566
01:10:50.239 --> 01:10:52.600
and we see interpretations that leave a lot of people
1567
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:54.960
out in the fold for being who God made them
1568
01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:57.720
to be. In simpler terms, we see love with a
1569
01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:00.840
lot of condition attached, and that's why we leave the church.
1570
01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:04.720
For Josh, I firmly believe that the opposite has been true.
1571
01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:08.560
He knows the problems with evangelical ideology, he knows the
1572
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.680
inherent evil that is Christian nationalism, but his freedom has
1573
01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:14.479
come from not tying any conditions to his love of
1574
01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:17.760
God or his love of others. He successfully removed those
1575
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:20.920
conditions from his process and has found something genuine. It's
1576
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:24.439
encouraging to see what actively thinking, empathizing, and loving others
1577
01:11:24.479 --> 01:11:26.840
can produce. It also reminded me a great deal of
1578
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:29.720
the band Josh quoted Five Iron Frenzy. The band itself
1579
01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:32.399
went through a deconstruction of their own. Their most recent album,
1580
01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:35.520
until This Shakes Apart, is a product of anger at
1581
01:11:35.520 --> 01:11:38.079
things done in the name of Christ. Band members that
1582
01:11:38.119 --> 01:11:41.760
disagree on faith and religion, and a desire to be merciful, gracious,
1583
01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:44.279
and a change in a world that's tough to live in.
1584
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:47.560
I highly recommend it. Whether you found freedom through unconditional
1585
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.840
love within the building of a church or not, or
1586
01:11:49.880 --> 01:11:52.439
even if you're still looking for that freedom, unconditional love's
1587
01:11:52.479 --> 01:11:54.720
a worthy goal. Thanks for joining me this week on
1588
01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:57.920
Breakfast and Hell. Breakfast in Hell is produced by Will count.
1589
01:11:57.920 --> 01:11:59.640
It's written and hosted by Daniel Thompson.
1590
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:00.479
You enjoy the.
1591
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:02.359
Pod, please do us a favor with a rating and
1592
01:12:02.399 --> 01:12:05.039
review on Apple Podcasts and follow us on the socials
1593
01:12:05.079 --> 01:12:08.239
at Breakfast in Hell Pod. If you've got questions, comments,
1594
01:12:08.279 --> 01:12:09.640
or would like to be on the show, dm us
1595
01:12:09.680 --> 01:12:11.720
on Instagram or send us an email to Breakfast in
1596
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:16.720
Hellpod at gmail dot com.
1597
01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:20.720
You're about to hear some ads that helped keep the
1598
01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:22.640
lights on here in the old studio.
1599
01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:26.119
Thanks for listening or don't listen.
1600
01:12:26.279 --> 01:12:28.680
It's really up to you at this point. It is
1601
01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:29.680
at the end of the show.
1602
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:31.199
I mean, you're listening to me.
1603
01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:34.439
Hi, But here they come. I promised our coming. Yep,
1604
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:59.680
here they are. Happy Day.