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I've been building workshops for the
better part of a decade, which is a
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skill all in itself to learn how to
build a workshop and facilitate it
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and get everybody in the room to feel
safe and show up and really engage
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and have a great time while also
making important business decisions.
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You're listening to Brainwork
Framework, a business and marketing
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podcast brought to you by focus- biz.
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com.
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Chris Troka: Welcome
back to another episode.
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With us today is the founder
of Profit Ladder, Jay Malone.
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He is the productized services guy.
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He's going to share his story about
scaling a business without spending
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all this free time marketing and
selling to the point of burnout.
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Jay, so excited to have you here.
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Welcome on.
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How are you today?
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Jay Melone: Hey, Chris, good to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Chris Troka: Absolutely.
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We always like to ask our guests
about their entrepreneurial journey.
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What were you doing before
and how did that bring you
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into what you're doing today?
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Jay Melone: All right.
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I've been at the entrepreneurial grind
for 15 years now and even before that,
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I grew up as an entrepreneur's kid.
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Both my parents own their own business.
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My grandfather was a shoe cobbler that had
a little shoe store in Verona, New Jersey.
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So I guess I've been surround
indoctrinated but I started
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my first business which was
different than profit ladder.
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It was called new haircut.
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We were a web design studio.
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We started building websites and mobile
apps and platforms and eventually
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we got into product strategy and
innovation and as we sort of evolved,
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we went from working with little
startups to larger companies and
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eventually working with big companies
like Google and Home Depot and Ford,
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great companies, really exciting work.
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We got to create products
that we were super proud of.
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So that business actually started
in 2010 it actually still exists.
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I've just sort of shoved it in the
background because I'm all excited
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about profit ladder these days,
which I started October of 23 but
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that experience with new haircut,
building that over those 14 years is
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exactly what led me to profit ladder.
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So when I started the business,
no one really gave me the cookbook
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to say, Hey, by the way, when you
open a business you're also going
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to be the person in charge of
marketing and selling all your stuff.
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I just thought like, you hang
the shingle excited about the work
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that you do and people are going
to come kicking down your door.
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It's not exactly how it worked and so
what happened was the most surprising
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was that I, at first I was spending
about half my time just beating the
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drum, trying to get people signed up.
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Even when we were first getting going
with working with startups and selling
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super affordable stuff, even doing
things at no cost or free, just to try
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to get business in the door, still had
to convince and persuade and pitch.
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And when we got into selling to
enterprise, That just got more
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complicated, longer, more of a
cycle, more grueling had to talk
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to more people in the organization.
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Most of my sales cycles
were 18 months long or so.
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So I was selling to VPs and executives
in these massive companies, I had to get
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to know them, had to build relationships
with them, earn their trust, earn the
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trust of their Sort of like 2nd and 3rd in
command and eventually just be remaining
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top of mind through my newsletter through
social content through email check ins
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through other things that I was less proud
of, like, spammy techniques just to like
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get back into there in front of them.
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Eventually, if I got lucky, an
opportunity would cross sort of like
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cross paths and I'd be able to begin
the process of pitching what I did
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so then began the additional rounds
of proposals and pitch meetings and
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getting buy in from up and up in the
organization and I'm doing all that work.
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And meanwhile, I did have a team at a
point where 35 people, they're doing
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all this work and they're sort of
waiting for me to sign additional work.
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And so we would go through these like
crazy periods of feast or famine.
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I started a business to do the
work with the team, not to be
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the guy out selling the work.
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So I constantly had FOMO, I wanted
to be in the projects with the team.
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So I would dip in, I would come
and I would work with the clients
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but then kick me to the curb.
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They'd be like, all right, you gotta
go find the next client so that we
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can all eat for the next six months
or so and then on top of it, our
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contracts were 3 or 6 months long.
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So, needless to say, that was a
sort of a hamster wheel that I sat
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on for 10, 11, 12 years and around
year 11 or 12 burnout started to
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creep in and it got to the point
where I now started to almost resent.
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The market that I was selling to because
when you get ghosted often enough by
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people that you've spent two weeks
creating a proposal for and they don't get
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back to you, you start to build up your
scales and your armor starts to go up.
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So around the year 20, end of 2019, I
started to ask myself, what would it look
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like if selling was easier to my customer?
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And that question is basically, Where
profit ladder began, I wound up like
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creating a bunch of ways to package
what I did as a service inside new
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haircut, package them in ways that
I could give them out to people.
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I could sell them to prospective
clients and it would sort of
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like, bring them into my funnel.
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So by the time we got into a sales
meeting, they were fully aware of the
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problems that I solved, how I solved them
if I was an expert and if they thought
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that I was The person and with my team
that we could solve their problems, which
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was grossly different in lots of good
ways than just showing up to a pitch
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meeting and starting the conversation.
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So that whole journey and me figuring
out a great way to solve it that
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didn't look like burnout and overwhelm
and like doubling my hours is what
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led me to start profit ladder.
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Chris Troka: That is quite the
journey, but I hear very similar
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stories from many other entrepreneurs.
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Maybe they're doing one thing for a while.
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They think there has
to be something easier.
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They're starting to burn out.
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They're just trying to find easier ways.
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The path of least resistance.
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Some don't find it or it takes
them so long to find but I'm
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happy that you were able to kind
of crack that code earlier on.
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So that way you're like, this
is what I need to focus on and
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grow which is really important.
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What is the productizing of services?
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Because I think creating that offer
and wrapping it up in a way that
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communicates it well to the intended
audience can be a challenge for many.
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How do you like to handle that?
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Jay Melone: So the way I think
about is, I basically just built
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my framework that I use today in
ProfitLadder based on my experience.
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So I had a lot of services that were
very active, high touch, Very intense
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services that often look like 3 to 6
month long engagements with coaching,
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consulting, training, a mixture of the
3 and again, that question was, what
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would it look like if this were easier
to sell from my side and easier to buy
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on my customer side because buying a 6
month long contract where you're going
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to innovate and you're going to hire a
team that you don't know and you're going
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to make sure they're right fit and find
an opportunity that they can solve and
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then work through it and the research.
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It's a lot.
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There's a lot of steps in there.
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So that's not an easy thing to buy and
so we just kept asking ourselves, what
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would it look like to make this easier?
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And so we just basically stepped
backward from our intensive high
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touch services and the first thing we
did is we package that into training.
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So we said, well, we get a lot
of questions about a couple of
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the frameworks that we used.
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So what if we taught
our customer and others?
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We didn't know who others were but if
there's interest in it, maybe we could
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just teach them our frameworks and
maybe they'll do it themselves and so
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we took a 6 month long thing frameworks
that we did and we packaged it into 2
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day training and we got a lot of people
that were super interested in it.
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It was pre COVID.
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So it was in person.
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The first one that we ran was in Berlin.
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It was two days.
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We had over 30 people attend and we
made over 50 grand from that and that
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was the kind of money that we made.
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Within like a three or six month contract
with several people doing that service.
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So we're like, Whoa, what's going on here?
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Our profits like skyrocketed.
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It was super easy for
the customers to buy.
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Very easy to facilitate two days at first
for four people running that training.
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Eventually it was one or two
people running the training.
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So the profit margins
just kept growing on it.
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And then that was kind of like, that
was our entry point into productizing,
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even though it was not a product.
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It was a package that you could buy.
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It was very easy.
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You're going to learn X, Y, and Z. It's
two days and it costs 1500 bucks to come.
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So super easy, that's a
clarif, a really clear offer.
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So you asked, what is
productizing look like?
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We just kept following that path.
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The next question we asked was, if we
want to sell more of the training, what
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if we took one of the frameworks and
we taught it in like a virtual setting?
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Because in the training, people would
ask us, could we have the slides?
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Could we have these
worksheets on the table?
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Could we have that template
that's on the projector behind us?
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And I used to say no.
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That's our IP.
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You can't have it.
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That's not part of the training
and eventually I said, well, what
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if we just started to say yes.
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So we took the training and we condensed
it into a do it yourself version which
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we called a toolkit sold that for 250.
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And that was even easier to buy
than the training but then people
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would use the toolkit and want
the full access to the training.
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So they'd sign up for the training and
then some people in the training would
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want us to come and just do it for them.
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So that sort of reverse flywheel if
our goal was to sell like our premium
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flagship offer, we just kept working our
way backward to create smaller, easier
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to buy offers that like super high value
but easier to buy less risk, less time
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investment for us and our customers.
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Eventually, work your way all the way up
to the top of the funnel where you're.
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Writing blog posts and newsletters and
social content and whatnot and that's
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sort of like Phil's top of the funnel
and then people just depending on
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where they are in their journey, they
sort of navigate to the right offer.
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Chris Troka: That is amazing.
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That time you focus on the how
do we make it easier to buy?
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How do we make it easier to sell?
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You took that 18 month cycle and
shortened it and now it becomes a two
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day event instead of a three to six month
commitment, plus that's incredible.
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I think it's a Testament to removing
friction from the buyer's journey.
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The more difficult you make
it, why is it this big process?
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You don't like it.
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They don't like it.
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Can't we just make this easier?
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How do I get your money easier?
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How do you get my product easier?
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You didn't change your service.
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It was just the way you
delivered the exact same
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framework, which was really cool.
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I'm sure you did some adjustments
to be more tuned to that.
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But I think just recrafting
that offer was brilliant.
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I think that's what
people need to focus on.
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So we just kind of take step backwards.
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So we can kind of figure
out what we need to do.
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Are there any other tactics that
have been super successful for you?
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That you kind of teach
through profit ladder?
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You want other people to know?
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Jay Melone: Yeah.
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So most of the time it's rare that you're
going to have one offer and it's going
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to be a grand slam and you're going to
get people like kicking down the door
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and thousands of people but because
most of your clients or customers are
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at different stages in their journey
and finding sort of like the right entry
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point for them, that's something that
I call a wedge offer, like the sweet
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spot between providing enough value.
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Easy enough to buy or even sometimes
even free that communicates trust to
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that person but is a natural progression
where they come to the thing or they
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use the thing or they buy the thing.
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And it's very easy for them to take that
mental leap to say, this is the guy or the
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woman that I want to work with and there's
a natural progression to the work that you
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do, the premium sort of like consulting,
coaching, training that you do.
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And that's hard to do because when
I first thought about this and a lot
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of the people that I work with they
will say something like, my program
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is six months and I'll be working with
them to identify a one week offer.
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So I'm like, let's find a thing
that you can deliver in 1 week.
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It's 2500 bucks.
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I know that you charge 100, 000 or
10, 000 for this thing that you do.
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I want you to find something that's
a thousand dollars, whatever 1 week.
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Super easy.
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It does 3 things.
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It takes.
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Three sessions and at the end
you get this important artifact
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or transformation or strategy.
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And that leap is super hard for people
to do and a lot of the time it requires
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somebody outside of our own brains
to sort of pull that apart for you.
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The expression I always use in love
is it's hard to read the label from
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inside the jar so that wedge offer
has been like this spark that
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people get really excited about.
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What I've actually found is that,
I'm actually doing this myself.
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I'm dog fooding this myself.
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I'm doing a two day training which
should be several hundred dollars.
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And it's really uncomfortable but I
make it free, but I have like this
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heavy screening process to make sure
it's high energy, high character.
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People are coming into it and I
basically open up my playbook and
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teach them a huge chunk of the system
that I would use to work with them.
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1 on 1.
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Not crappy, teach you the what without
the how, like we actually get into it.
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You implement it.
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You're in a group of people with others.
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So finding that offer, whether it's a
training event, whether it's a course,
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whether it's a do it yourself piece
of content or guide that they can
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implement that wedge offer tends to
be the kickstart that really kind of
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ignites your flywheel and that's the
thing that I love finding with people.
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Chris Troka: That's huge.
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I think a lot of business owners
who are struggling in the beginning,
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you can't give it away for free
enough and you can't get them in.
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They're just struggling but to pull
it a piece of your current offer,
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what's that logical first step
that they're going to receive value
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in versus easy enough to deliver,
then that's your foot in the door.
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And as you mentioned, it's just building
trust over time that they are saying, Hey,
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this is the person I like to work with
and can see myself working with together.
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Jay Melone: It's kind of like that
expression that I just rattled off the
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inside the jar or reading the label.
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A lot of the time when I start
working with someone, they're like,
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I need to invent something completely
new to like fresh, something
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new and fresh and like novel.
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And I'm like, well, tell me about
the work that you're doing today.
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I'm doing this stuff.
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How many times have you sold
that 20 times this year?
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Okay.
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How much money have you made?
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A couple hundred thousand.
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Okay.
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So why don't we figure out a way to
repackage that into a smaller chunk
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version that is just easier to buy.
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And I get tripped up on that too.
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I'm going to go create like an assessment
or a calculator or write a guide.
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That's like an entirely new set of
ideas and now you talked about friction.
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Now I'm creating friction for that person
to take what they learned from this and
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apply it to working with me one on one.
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So a lot of the time, it's
right under your nose.
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It's like, start with your high ticket
offer and ask yourself the same question.
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What would it look like if I made
this easier for me to deliver
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and for my customer to buy?
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Chris Troka: Yes, absolutely.
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And since you've been in business
for 15 plus years already I'm sure
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you've done every bit of marketing and
sales tactic that is available over
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the past one and a half decades.
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What have you realized is the most
essential vehicle or communication
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piece for building those relationships?
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What really moves the needle?
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Jay Melone: So I know the right
answer is, It's never one thing
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but I do think there are things
that we're more comfortable doing.
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Ways that we like to buy tend to be
good ways to sell what you're offering.
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So if you like being cold called,
then Maybe cold calling is your thing.
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I don't like to be cold called and so
I don't like to do cold calling but I
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have learned that doesn't mean that I
can't hire someone that is great at maybe
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it's not cold calling but being a little
bit more outbound, whereas my sort of
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mode of business building is inbound.
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In general, I like to create things
that people love that draw them
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to me and just the same other
people are the exact opposite.
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They're like, I want to find the person
and dig through their problems one by one
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and then I'll sell them the thing I have.
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So I do think it is a combination
of the two that tend to work best.
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I think they sort of amplify each other.
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I have found like in my experience,
most entrepreneurs are one or the other.
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They're really good at one
and less great at the other.
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So finding someone that
you can partner with.
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I think overall, if I had to do
one thing, it would be having a
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captive audience of people that
are like looking for what you do.
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And so like, guest podcasting is a
great thing to do because if you don't
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yet have a platform showing up on other
people's platforms who have a shared
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audience that you're building is a great
way to be in front of other people.
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Webinars, but like good webinars
not hour long sales pitches
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because It's so powerful.
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I come from a product background.
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So research is sort of like groomed
into me in terms of like finding
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great offers, sitting on a webinar,
giving all all you've got in terms
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00:16:57,036 --> 00:17:00,606
of value and then asking people,
why is this going to be hard?
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Where are you going to go next with this?
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What's a question that you
have that's coming up for you?
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Why is it like hearing their objections
to it and where they're getting stuck
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is one of the most powerful things that
you can give to yourself and there's so
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much more to be in a conversation with
people that you just gave a ton of value
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to, because they're going to open up.
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They're not going to feel like
it's trickery or marketing and
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it's so much more to hear it
live than sending out a survey.
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So I love being in front of an active
audience that is looking for my work.
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So there's different formats
to do that but yeah, that live
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and in person is tough to beat.
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Chris Troka: I don't think a lot
of business owners realize the
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valuable feedback that we'll get
from our leads and prospects and our
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customers and our promoters as well.
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A lot of those business relationships.
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If you ask them, what
do you think about this?
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You have to ask those questions.
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Some are will be willing to share with
you but you want to use that insight so
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you can give a better experience going
forward, what pain points to address,
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what problems you're trying to solve.
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So you can just have a better
understanding of that bigger picture
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of what does my audience want
and how do I give that to them?
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And I think webinars are a great
way to don't make it that hour long
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sales pitch, I despise those two.
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And those were so popular for the past
decade or so but thankfully people are
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more focused on the inbound strategy
which is the providing value through
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webinars, the newsletters, the content
you're putting out there is building
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that relationship, establishing trust
and eventually that creates your
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customer base, which is incredible.
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Throughout the years, I'm sure
you're a lifelong learner.
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Have there been really good either YouTube
series, podcasts, books authors you
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might recommend for other entrepreneurs?
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Jay Melone: Yeah.
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00:18:42,066 --> 00:18:45,976
So I've been listening on and off to
Alex Hormozy for a couple of years now.
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He gets to be intense after a
while just like Gary V, like I can
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take them in doses and then I need
to check out for a little while.
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00:18:52,386 --> 00:18:56,486
I'm an auditory learner, so I love
to go to the gym or I just took
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my son to a soccer tournament.
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So I listened to a bunch
of podcasts and books.
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My attention span also sort of drifts
like I think that's a superpower of
356
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being an entrepreneur also a curse.
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So I tend to like the shorter form
podcasts like those What's another
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one that I've been listening to?
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I can't think of her name.
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00:19:11,436 --> 00:19:15,916
I actually just attended a virtual
training by a guy named Adam
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Flores and it gave me the sort of
clarity again right under my nose.
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I've been building workshops for the
better part of a decade which is a
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skill all in itself to learn how to
like build a workshop and facilitate
364
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it and get everybody in the room
to feel safe and show up and really
365
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engage and have a great time while also
making important business decisions.
366
00:19:36,846 --> 00:19:37,876
That is a superpower.
367
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If you figured that out.
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And I had been running webinars but it
was more like presentation style with a
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little bit of Q and a, and it felt off and
I listened to a training of his and his
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whole thing, his sort of like wedge offer
is doing a 2 day training event and I
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00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:58,276
was like, of course, that's what I need to
be doing and I needed to hear him say it.
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00:19:58,286 --> 00:20:02,376
He has a totally different offer but
I needed to hear him and I attended it
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like he showed me and everybody else
in there that number one, not only
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can you do something that is takes a
ton of your time that you can do for
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free and there's a way to gate it.
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00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:15,706
So he has a sort of a 1 on 1
check in process to make sure
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everyone that joins is a good fit.
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00:20:17,816 --> 00:20:21,846
But there's just a natural
progression at the back offer of
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that is to join his mastermind.
380
00:20:24,606 --> 00:20:29,756
But he's given so much value in that two
day training that wasn't even a pitch
381
00:20:29,866 --> 00:20:35,336
but I could definitely see when I do X,
Y, and Z after coming to this training.
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Of course, Adam's going to be
the guy that I want to talk with
383
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about building my own mastermind.
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You can Google Adam Flores.
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He has smart business, something
or other, it's a training that
386
00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:46,286
you can sign up for two days.
387
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You have to meet with him
and his team one on one.
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And if he accepts you, you get in and if
you like being in front of an audience
389
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and you have an offer then he could
help you find that sort of like training
390
00:20:57,746 --> 00:20:59,606
event that you get people excited.
391
00:20:59,616 --> 00:21:03,126
You teach them a thing and then they'd
be interested in your premium upsell.
392
00:21:03,636 --> 00:21:04,366
Chris Troka: Yes, absolutely.
393
00:21:04,366 --> 00:21:08,626
We always love more resources and
just thoughts on different authors and
394
00:21:08,966 --> 00:21:12,816
people with knowledge and experts in
their field and I think this is a prime
395
00:21:12,816 --> 00:21:17,436
example that you love that service, that
product so much from that gentleman that
396
00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:20,276
you're happy to share his information,
how you led through the process.
397
00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:20,741
And you're like, this is great.
398
00:21:20,891 --> 00:21:25,361
I know I was being sold to but I was
happy to buy because that connection
399
00:21:25,361 --> 00:21:27,351
and the trust that was built from that.
400
00:21:27,621 --> 00:21:30,511
For everyone interested in
learning more about Jay.
401
00:21:30,741 --> 00:21:32,021
Where can they find you online?
402
00:21:32,021 --> 00:21:34,071
Get connected, find out
more about your offer.
403
00:21:34,591 --> 00:21:34,901
Jay Melone: Yep.
404
00:21:35,101 --> 00:21:36,051
So profit ladder.
405
00:21:36,211 --> 00:21:36,491
net.
406
00:21:37,341 --> 00:21:40,986
Currently that is just free
newsletter issues that I write
407
00:21:41,016 --> 00:21:45,186
about entrepreneurship, productizing
services, reverse flywheels is the
408
00:21:45,186 --> 00:21:48,656
system you'll hear me talk about
and I'm always on LinkedIn, so
409
00:21:48,656 --> 00:21:50,896
that's my most active social media.
410
00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:52,036
You can find me there.
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00:21:52,526 --> 00:21:53,016
Chris Troka: Very nice.
412
00:21:53,016 --> 00:21:55,836
We'll have links available down in
the description and show notes for
413
00:21:55,836 --> 00:21:56,926
those who want to get connected.
414
00:21:57,186 --> 00:22:01,126
Jay, what's on the agenda for 2025?
415
00:22:01,126 --> 00:22:03,606
It's December and 24 right now.
416
00:22:03,901 --> 00:22:05,861
What are you building and
working towards right now?
417
00:22:05,861 --> 00:22:07,691
It seems like you're really
ramping up and you're kind of
418
00:22:07,691 --> 00:22:09,751
like ready to hit that next level.
419
00:22:09,761 --> 00:22:10,801
What's coming next for you?
420
00:22:11,091 --> 00:22:13,431
Jay Melone: Yeah, also, I'm
really excited about this two
421
00:22:13,431 --> 00:22:14,581
day training that I'm doing.
422
00:22:14,631 --> 00:22:17,211
Like I said, it's that healthy
mix of feeling uncomfortable.
423
00:22:17,211 --> 00:22:19,861
All the time I'm putting into building
it and what people are going to get
424
00:22:19,861 --> 00:22:21,301
out of it and the fact that it's free?
425
00:22:21,791 --> 00:22:22,821
But I'm excited about it.
426
00:22:22,821 --> 00:22:24,131
And on the back end of that.
427
00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:27,676
I have a program called the
Profit Accelerator, and I
428
00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:28,856
work with people one on one.
429
00:22:29,186 --> 00:22:33,186
They have a consulting or coaching
service and I help them find that wedge
430
00:22:33,186 --> 00:22:34,926
offer that starts to spin their flywheel.
431
00:22:34,926 --> 00:22:35,436
Chris Troka: Very nice.
432
00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:36,306
That is fantastic.
433
00:22:36,326 --> 00:22:40,796
Any last parting words of wisdom for our
audience out there for the marketers, the
434
00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,596
business owners, entrepreneurs, you've
been through it, you've gone through
435
00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,506
the struggle, you go through it, you
have the wins, you have the losses.
436
00:22:46,776 --> 00:22:50,736
It's tough being a business owner, wearing
so many hats but we feel more connected
437
00:22:50,736 --> 00:22:52,106
with other business owners as well.
438
00:22:52,246 --> 00:22:55,056
So we'd just like to share
that opportunity for everybody.
439
00:22:55,056 --> 00:22:56,686
Jay Melone: I just
posted about this today.
440
00:22:56,736 --> 00:23:02,616
I changed topics and I used to only talk
about impact, only talk about the mission
441
00:23:02,616 --> 00:23:07,266
that I was on and serving people and I
gave away everything and I was afraid to
442
00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:09,406
really ask to charge what I was worth.
443
00:23:10,056 --> 00:23:15,096
And that cost me a whole bunch of
burnout and very few customers and so
444
00:23:15,096 --> 00:23:17,626
when I switch topics and change company.
445
00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:20,796
And the name of my company is profit
ladder, a lot of the people that had been
446
00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:25,806
following me for years told me that that
switch made them uncomfortable that I
447
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:27,636
talk about money and I prioritize money.
448
00:23:28,026 --> 00:23:30,976
So what I would stress to the
entrepreneur that's listening.
449
00:23:31,491 --> 00:23:35,011
Is that, there's a false dichotomy
between impact and income.
450
00:23:35,021 --> 00:23:36,031
You can have both.
451
00:23:36,061 --> 00:23:39,951
And I think if you treat money
as fuel, then you can see it as
452
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a tool that will only grow the
impact that you're able to have.
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So don't like get rid of all of
the sort of toxic relationships
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that we have around money.
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It is a tool and you can use it.
456
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Chris Troka: Absolutely.
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Very well said Jay.
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00:23:52,421 --> 00:23:53,241
We appreciate it.
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00:23:53,441 --> 00:23:56,291
Thank you again for coming on the
podcast to highlight your journey
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00:23:56,301 --> 00:23:58,241
and give us some tips and tricks.
461
00:23:58,241 --> 00:23:59,291
We appreciate it so much.
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00:23:59,291 --> 00:23:59,771
Thank you.
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00:24:00,191 --> 00:24:00,781
Jay Melone: Got it, Chris.
00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:04,119
I've been building workshops for the
better part of a decade, which is a
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00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,979
skill all in itself to learn how to
build a workshop and facilitate it
3
00:00:07,980 --> 00:00:11,270
and get everybody in the room to feel
safe and show up and really engage
4
00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:15,829
and have a great time while also
making important business decisions.
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00:00:18,866 --> 00:00:21,646
You're listening to Brainwork
Framework, a business and marketing
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00:00:21,646 --> 00:00:23,536
podcast brought to you by focus- biz.
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00:00:23,536 --> 00:00:24,906
com.
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00:00:24,906 --> 00:00:26,286
Chris Troka: Welcome
back to another episode.
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00:00:26,296 --> 00:00:28,996
With us today is the founder
of Profit Ladder, Jay Malone.
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00:00:29,216 --> 00:00:31,426
He is the productized services guy.
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00:00:31,436 --> 00:00:33,906
He's going to share his story about
scaling a business without spending
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all this free time marketing and
selling to the point of burnout.
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Jay, so excited to have you here.
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Welcome on.
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How are you today?
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Jay Melone: Hey, Chris, good to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Chris Troka: Absolutely.
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We always like to ask our guests
about their entrepreneurial journey.
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What were you doing before
and how did that bring you
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into what you're doing today?
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Jay Melone: All right.
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I've been at the entrepreneurial grind
for 15 years now and even before that,
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I grew up as an entrepreneur's kid.
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Both my parents own their own business.
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My grandfather was a shoe cobbler that had
a little shoe store in Verona, New Jersey.
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So I guess I've been surround
indoctrinated but I started
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my first business which was
different than profit ladder.
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It was called new haircut.
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We were a web design studio.
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We started building websites and mobile
apps and platforms and eventually
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we got into product strategy and
innovation and as we sort of evolved,
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we went from working with little
startups to larger companies and
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eventually working with big companies
like Google and Home Depot and Ford,
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great companies, really exciting work.
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We got to create products
that we were super proud of.
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So that business actually started
in 2010 it actually still exists.
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I've just sort of shoved it in the
background because I'm all excited
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about profit ladder these days,
which I started October of 23 but
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that experience with new haircut,
building that over those 14 years is
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exactly what led me to profit ladder.
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So when I started the business,
no one really gave me the cookbook
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to say, Hey, by the way, when you
open a business you're also going
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to be the person in charge of
marketing and selling all your stuff.
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I just thought like, you hang
the shingle excited about the work
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that you do and people are going
to come kicking down your door.
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It's not exactly how it worked and so
what happened was the most surprising
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was that I, at first I was spending
about half my time just beating the
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drum, trying to get people signed up.
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Even when we were first getting going
with working with startups and selling
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super affordable stuff, even doing
things at no cost or free, just to try
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to get business in the door, still had
to convince and persuade and pitch.
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And when we got into selling to
enterprise, That just got more
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complicated, longer, more of a
cycle, more grueling had to talk
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to more people in the organization.
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Most of my sales cycles
were 18 months long or so.
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So I was selling to VPs and executives
in these massive companies, I had to get
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to know them, had to build relationships
with them, earn their trust, earn the
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trust of their Sort of like 2nd and 3rd in
command and eventually just be remaining
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top of mind through my newsletter through
social content through email check ins
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through other things that I was less proud
of, like, spammy techniques just to like
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get back into there in front of them.
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Eventually, if I got lucky, an
opportunity would cross sort of like
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cross paths and I'd be able to begin
the process of pitching what I did
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so then began the additional rounds
of proposals and pitch meetings and
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getting buy in from up and up in the
organization and I'm doing all that work.
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And meanwhile, I did have a team at a
point where 35 people, they're doing
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all this work and they're sort of
waiting for me to sign additional work.
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And so we would go through these like
crazy periods of feast or famine.
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I started a business to do the
work with the team, not to be
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the guy out selling the work.
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So I constantly had FOMO, I wanted
to be in the projects with the team.
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So I would dip in, I would come
and I would work with the clients
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but then kick me to the curb.
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They'd be like, all right, you gotta
go find the next client so that we
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can all eat for the next six months
or so and then on top of it, our
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contracts were 3 or 6 months long.
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So, needless to say, that was a
sort of a hamster wheel that I sat
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on for 10, 11, 12 years and around
year 11 or 12 burnout started to
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creep in and it got to the point
where I now started to almost resent.
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The market that I was selling to because
when you get ghosted often enough by
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people that you've spent two weeks
creating a proposal for and they don't get
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back to you, you start to build up your
scales and your armor starts to go up.
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So around the year 20, end of 2019, I
started to ask myself, what would it look
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like if selling was easier to my customer?
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And that question is basically, Where
profit ladder began, I wound up like
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creating a bunch of ways to package
what I did as a service inside new
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haircut, package them in ways that
I could give them out to people.
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I could sell them to prospective
clients and it would sort of
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like, bring them into my funnel.
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So by the time we got into a sales
meeting, they were fully aware of the
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problems that I solved, how I solved them
if I was an expert and if they thought
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that I was The person and with my team
that we could solve their problems, which
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was grossly different in lots of good
ways than just showing up to a pitch
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meeting and starting the conversation.
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So that whole journey and me figuring
out a great way to solve it that
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00:05:36,376 --> 00:05:40,386
didn't look like burnout and overwhelm
and like doubling my hours is what
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led me to start profit ladder.
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Chris Troka: That is quite the
journey, but I hear very similar
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stories from many other entrepreneurs.
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Maybe they're doing one thing for a while.
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They think there has
to be something easier.
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They're starting to burn out.
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They're just trying to find easier ways.
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The path of least resistance.
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Some don't find it or it takes
them so long to find but I'm
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happy that you were able to kind
of crack that code earlier on.
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So that way you're like, this
is what I need to focus on and
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grow which is really important.
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What is the productizing of services?
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Because I think creating that offer
and wrapping it up in a way that
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communicates it well to the intended
audience can be a challenge for many.
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How do you like to handle that?
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Jay Melone: So the way I think
about is, I basically just built
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my framework that I use today in
ProfitLadder based on my experience.
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So I had a lot of services that were
very active, high touch, Very intense
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services that often look like 3 to 6
month long engagements with coaching,
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consulting, training, a mixture of the
3 and again, that question was, what
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would it look like if this were easier
to sell from my side and easier to buy
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on my customer side because buying a 6
month long contract where you're going
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to innovate and you're going to hire a
team that you don't know and you're going
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to make sure they're right fit and find
an opportunity that they can solve and
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then work through it and the research.
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It's a lot.
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There's a lot of steps in there.
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So that's not an easy thing to buy and
so we just kept asking ourselves, what
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would it look like to make this easier?
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And so we just basically stepped
backward from our intensive high
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touch services and the first thing we
did is we package that into training.
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So we said, well, we get a lot
of questions about a couple of
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the frameworks that we used.
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So what if we taught
our customer and others?
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We didn't know who others were but if
there's interest in it, maybe we could
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just teach them our frameworks and
maybe they'll do it themselves and so
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we took a 6 month long thing frameworks
that we did and we packaged it into 2
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day training and we got a lot of people
that were super interested in it.
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It was pre COVID.
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So it was in person.
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The first one that we ran was in Berlin.
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It was two days.
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We had over 30 people attend and we
made over 50 grand from that and that
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was the kind of money that we made.
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Within like a three or six month contract
with several people doing that service.
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So we're like, Whoa, what's going on here?
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Our profits like skyrocketed.
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It was super easy for
the customers to buy.
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Very easy to facilitate two days at first
for four people running that training.
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Eventually it was one or two
people running the training.
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So the profit margins
just kept growing on it.
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And then that was kind of like, that
was our entry point into productizing,
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even though it was not a product.
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It was a package that you could buy.
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It was very easy.
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You're going to learn X, Y, and Z. It's
two days and it costs 1500 bucks to come.
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So super easy, that's a
clarif, a really clear offer.
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So you asked, what is
productizing look like?
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We just kept following that path.
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The next question we asked was, if we
want to sell more of the training, what
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if we took one of the frameworks and
we taught it in like a virtual setting?
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Because in the training, people would
ask us, could we have the slides?
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Could we have these
worksheets on the table?
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Could we have that template
that's on the projector behind us?
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And I used to say no.
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That's our IP.
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You can't have it.
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That's not part of the training
and eventually I said, well, what
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if we just started to say yes.
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So we took the training and we condensed
it into a do it yourself version which
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we called a toolkit sold that for 250.
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And that was even easier to buy
than the training but then people
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would use the toolkit and want
the full access to the training.
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So they'd sign up for the training and
then some people in the training would
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want us to come and just do it for them.
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So that sort of reverse flywheel if
our goal was to sell like our premium
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flagship offer, we just kept working our
way backward to create smaller, easier
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to buy offers that like super high value
but easier to buy less risk, less time
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investment for us and our customers.
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Eventually, work your way all the way up
to the top of the funnel where you're.
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Writing blog posts and newsletters and
social content and whatnot and that's
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sort of like Phil's top of the funnel
and then people just depending on
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where they are in their journey, they
sort of navigate to the right offer.
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Chris Troka: That is amazing.
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That time you focus on the how
do we make it easier to buy?
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How do we make it easier to sell?
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00:10:04,746 --> 00:10:08,466
You took that 18 month cycle and
shortened it and now it becomes a two
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00:10:08,466 --> 00:10:12,246
day event instead of a three to six month
commitment, plus that's incredible.
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I think it's a Testament to removing
friction from the buyer's journey.
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The more difficult you make
it, why is it this big process?
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You don't like it.
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They don't like it.
191
00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:22,036
Can't we just make this easier?
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How do I get your money easier?
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How do you get my product easier?
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You didn't change your service.
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It was just the way you
delivered the exact same
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framework, which was really cool.
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I'm sure you did some adjustments
to be more tuned to that.
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00:10:32,501 --> 00:10:35,901
But I think just recrafting
that offer was brilliant.
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I think that's what
people need to focus on.
200
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So we just kind of take step backwards.
201
00:10:39,981 --> 00:10:42,141
So we can kind of figure
out what we need to do.
202
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Are there any other tactics that
have been super successful for you?
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That you kind of teach
through profit ladder?
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00:10:48,261 --> 00:10:49,651
You want other people to know?
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Jay Melone: Yeah.
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00:10:50,671 --> 00:10:54,941
So most of the time it's rare that you're
going to have one offer and it's going
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00:10:54,941 --> 00:10:58,231
to be a grand slam and you're going to
get people like kicking down the door
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00:10:58,231 --> 00:11:03,791
and thousands of people but because
most of your clients or customers are
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00:11:03,831 --> 00:11:07,731
at different stages in their journey
and finding sort of like the right entry
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00:11:07,731 --> 00:11:12,051
point for them, that's something that
I call a wedge offer, like the sweet
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00:11:12,051 --> 00:11:14,531
spot between providing enough value.
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00:11:14,976 --> 00:11:20,796
Easy enough to buy or even sometimes
even free that communicates trust to
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00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:25,606
that person but is a natural progression
where they come to the thing or they
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00:11:25,606 --> 00:11:27,266
use the thing or they buy the thing.
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00:11:27,776 --> 00:11:34,276
And it's very easy for them to take that
mental leap to say, this is the guy or the
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woman that I want to work with and there's
a natural progression to the work that you
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do, the premium sort of like consulting,
coaching, training that you do.
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And that's hard to do because when
I first thought about this and a lot
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of the people that I work with they
will say something like, my program
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is six months and I'll be working with
them to identify a one week offer.
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So I'm like, let's find a thing
that you can deliver in 1 week.
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It's 2500 bucks.
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I know that you charge 100, 000 or
10, 000 for this thing that you do.
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I want you to find something that's
a thousand dollars, whatever 1 week.
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Super easy.
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It does 3 things.
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It takes.
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Three sessions and at the end
you get this important artifact
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or transformation or strategy.
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And that leap is super hard for people
to do and a lot of the time it requires
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somebody outside of our own brains
to sort of pull that apart for you.
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The expression I always use in love
is it's hard to read the label from
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inside the jar so that wedge offer
has been like this spark that
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people get really excited about.
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What I've actually found is that,
I'm actually doing this myself.
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I'm dog fooding this myself.
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I'm doing a two day training which
should be several hundred dollars.
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And it's really uncomfortable but I
make it free, but I have like this
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heavy screening process to make sure
it's high energy, high character.
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People are coming into it and I
basically open up my playbook and
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teach them a huge chunk of the system
that I would use to work with them.
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1 on 1.
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Not crappy, teach you the what without
the how, like we actually get into it.
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You implement it.
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You're in a group of people with others.
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So finding that offer, whether it's a
training event, whether it's a course,
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whether it's a do it yourself piece
of content or guide that they can
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implement that wedge offer tends to
be the kickstart that really kind of
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ignites your flywheel and that's the
thing that I love finding with people.
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Chris Troka: That's huge.
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I think a lot of business owners
who are struggling in the beginning,
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you can't give it away for free
enough and you can't get them in.
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They're just struggling but to pull
it a piece of your current offer,
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what's that logical first step
that they're going to receive value
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in versus easy enough to deliver,
then that's your foot in the door.
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And as you mentioned, it's just building
trust over time that they are saying, Hey,
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this is the person I like to work with
and can see myself working with together.
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Jay Melone: It's kind of like that
expression that I just rattled off the
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inside the jar or reading the label.
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A lot of the time when I start
working with someone, they're like,
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I need to invent something completely
new to like fresh, something
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new and fresh and like novel.
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And I'm like, well, tell me about
the work that you're doing today.
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I'm doing this stuff.
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How many times have you sold
that 20 times this year?
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Okay.
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How much money have you made?
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A couple hundred thousand.
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Okay.
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So why don't we figure out a way to
repackage that into a smaller chunk
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version that is just easier to buy.
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And I get tripped up on that too.
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I'm going to go create like an assessment
or a calculator or write a guide.
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That's like an entirely new set of
ideas and now you talked about friction.
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Now I'm creating friction for that person
to take what they learned from this and
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apply it to working with me one on one.
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So a lot of the time, it's
right under your nose.
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It's like, start with your high ticket
offer and ask yourself the same question.
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What would it look like if I made
this easier for me to deliver
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and for my customer to buy?
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Chris Troka: Yes, absolutely.
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And since you've been in business
for 15 plus years already I'm sure
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you've done every bit of marketing and
sales tactic that is available over
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the past one and a half decades.
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What have you realized is the most
essential vehicle or communication
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piece for building those relationships?
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What really moves the needle?
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Jay Melone: So I know the right
answer is, It's never one thing
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but I do think there are things
that we're more comfortable doing.
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Ways that we like to buy tend to be
good ways to sell what you're offering.
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So if you like being cold called,
then Maybe cold calling is your thing.
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I don't like to be cold called and so
I don't like to do cold calling but I
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have learned that doesn't mean that I
can't hire someone that is great at maybe
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it's not cold calling but being a little
bit more outbound, whereas my sort of
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mode of business building is inbound.
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In general, I like to create things
that people love that draw them
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to me and just the same other
people are the exact opposite.
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They're like, I want to find the person
and dig through their problems one by one
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and then I'll sell them the thing I have.
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So I do think it is a combination
of the two that tend to work best.
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I think they sort of amplify each other.
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I have found like in my experience,
most entrepreneurs are one or the other.
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They're really good at one
and less great at the other.
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So finding someone that
you can partner with.
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I think overall, if I had to do
one thing, it would be having a
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captive audience of people that
are like looking for what you do.
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And so like, guest podcasting is a
great thing to do because if you don't
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yet have a platform showing up on other
people's platforms who have a shared
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audience that you're building is a great
way to be in front of other people.
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Webinars, but like good webinars
not hour long sales pitches
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because It's so powerful.
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I come from a product background.
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So research is sort of like groomed
into me in terms of like finding
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great offers, sitting on a webinar,
giving all all you've got in terms
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of value and then asking people,
why is this going to be hard?
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Where are you going to go next with this?
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What's a question that you
have that's coming up for you?
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Why is it like hearing their objections
to it and where they're getting stuck
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is one of the most powerful things that
you can give to yourself and there's so
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much more to be in a conversation with
people that you just gave a ton of value
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to, because they're going to open up.
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They're not going to feel like
it's trickery or marketing and
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it's so much more to hear it
live than sending out a survey.
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So I love being in front of an active
audience that is looking for my work.
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So there's different formats
to do that but yeah, that live
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and in person is tough to beat.
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Chris Troka: I don't think a lot
of business owners realize the
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valuable feedback that we'll get
from our leads and prospects and our
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customers and our promoters as well.
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A lot of those business relationships.
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If you ask them, what
do you think about this?
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You have to ask those questions.
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Some are will be willing to share with
you but you want to use that insight so
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you can give a better experience going
forward, what pain points to address,
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what problems you're trying to solve.
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So you can just have a better
understanding of that bigger picture
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of what does my audience want
and how do I give that to them?
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And I think webinars are a great
way to don't make it that hour long
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sales pitch, I despise those two.
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And those were so popular for the past
decade or so but thankfully people are
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more focused on the inbound strategy
which is the providing value through
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webinars, the newsletters, the content
you're putting out there is building
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that relationship, establishing trust
and eventually that creates your
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customer base, which is incredible.
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Throughout the years, I'm sure
you're a lifelong learner.
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Have there been really good either YouTube
series, podcasts, books authors you
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might recommend for other entrepreneurs?
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Jay Melone: Yeah.
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So I've been listening on and off to
Alex Hormozy for a couple of years now.
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He gets to be intense after a
while just like Gary V, like I can
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take them in doses and then I need
to check out for a little while.
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I'm an auditory learner, so I love
to go to the gym or I just took
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my son to a soccer tournament.
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So I listened to a bunch
of podcasts and books.
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My attention span also sort of drifts
like I think that's a superpower of
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being an entrepreneur also a curse.
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So I tend to like the shorter form
podcasts like those What's another
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one that I've been listening to?
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I can't think of her name.
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I actually just attended a virtual
training by a guy named Adam
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Flores and it gave me the sort of
clarity again right under my nose.
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I've been building workshops for the
better part of a decade which is a
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skill all in itself to learn how to
like build a workshop and facilitate
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it and get everybody in the room
to feel safe and show up and really
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engage and have a great time while also
making important business decisions.
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That is a superpower.
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If you figured that out.
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And I had been running webinars but it
was more like presentation style with a
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little bit of Q and a, and it felt off and
I listened to a training of his and his
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whole thing, his sort of like wedge offer
is doing a 2 day training event and I
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was like, of course, that's what I need to
be doing and I needed to hear him say it.
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He has a totally different offer but
I needed to hear him and I attended it
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like he showed me and everybody else
in there that number one, not only
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can you do something that is takes a
ton of your time that you can do for
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free and there's a way to gate it.
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So he has a sort of a 1 on 1
check in process to make sure
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everyone that joins is a good fit.
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But there's just a natural
progression at the back offer of
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that is to join his mastermind.
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But he's given so much value in that two
day training that wasn't even a pitch
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but I could definitely see when I do X,
Y, and Z after coming to this training.
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Of course, Adam's going to be
the guy that I want to talk with
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about building my own mastermind.
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You can Google Adam Flores.
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He has smart business, something
or other, it's a training that
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you can sign up for two days.
387
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You have to meet with him
and his team one on one.
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And if he accepts you, you get in and if
you like being in front of an audience
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and you have an offer then he could
help you find that sort of like training
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00:20:57,746 --> 00:20:59,606
event that you get people excited.
391
00:20:59,616 --> 00:21:03,126
You teach them a thing and then they'd
be interested in your premium upsell.
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Chris Troka: Yes, absolutely.
393
00:21:04,366 --> 00:21:08,626
We always love more resources and
just thoughts on different authors and
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00:21:08,966 --> 00:21:12,816
people with knowledge and experts in
their field and I think this is a prime
395
00:21:12,816 --> 00:21:17,436
example that you love that service, that
product so much from that gentleman that
396
00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:20,276
you're happy to share his information,
how you led through the process.
397
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And you're like, this is great.
398
00:21:20,891 --> 00:21:25,361
I know I was being sold to but I was
happy to buy because that connection
399
00:21:25,361 --> 00:21:27,351
and the trust that was built from that.
400
00:21:27,621 --> 00:21:30,511
For everyone interested in
learning more about Jay.
401
00:21:30,741 --> 00:21:32,021
Where can they find you online?
402
00:21:32,021 --> 00:21:34,071
Get connected, find out
more about your offer.
403
00:21:34,591 --> 00:21:34,901
Jay Melone: Yep.
404
00:21:35,101 --> 00:21:36,051
So profit ladder.
405
00:21:36,211 --> 00:21:36,491
net.
406
00:21:37,341 --> 00:21:40,986
Currently that is just free
newsletter issues that I write
407
00:21:41,016 --> 00:21:45,186
about entrepreneurship, productizing
services, reverse flywheels is the
408
00:21:45,186 --> 00:21:48,656
system you'll hear me talk about
and I'm always on LinkedIn, so
409
00:21:48,656 --> 00:21:50,896
that's my most active social media.
410
00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:52,036
You can find me there.
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00:21:52,526 --> 00:21:53,016
Chris Troka: Very nice.
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00:21:53,016 --> 00:21:55,836
We'll have links available down in
the description and show notes for
413
00:21:55,836 --> 00:21:56,926
those who want to get connected.
414
00:21:57,186 --> 00:22:01,126
Jay, what's on the agenda for 2025?
415
00:22:01,126 --> 00:22:03,606
It's December and 24 right now.
416
00:22:03,901 --> 00:22:05,861
What are you building and
working towards right now?
417
00:22:05,861 --> 00:22:07,691
It seems like you're really
ramping up and you're kind of
418
00:22:07,691 --> 00:22:09,751
like ready to hit that next level.
419
00:22:09,761 --> 00:22:10,801
What's coming next for you?
420
00:22:11,091 --> 00:22:13,431
Jay Melone: Yeah, also, I'm
really excited about this two
421
00:22:13,431 --> 00:22:14,581
day training that I'm doing.
422
00:22:14,631 --> 00:22:17,211
Like I said, it's that healthy
mix of feeling uncomfortable.
423
00:22:17,211 --> 00:22:19,861
All the time I'm putting into building
it and what people are going to get
424
00:22:19,861 --> 00:22:21,301
out of it and the fact that it's free?
425
00:22:21,791 --> 00:22:22,821
But I'm excited about it.
426
00:22:22,821 --> 00:22:24,131
And on the back end of that.
427
00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:27,676
I have a program called the
Profit Accelerator, and I
428
00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:28,856
work with people one on one.
429
00:22:29,186 --> 00:22:33,186
They have a consulting or coaching
service and I help them find that wedge
430
00:22:33,186 --> 00:22:34,926
offer that starts to spin their flywheel.
431
00:22:34,926 --> 00:22:35,436
Chris Troka: Very nice.
432
00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:36,306
That is fantastic.
433
00:22:36,326 --> 00:22:40,796
Any last parting words of wisdom for our
audience out there for the marketers, the
434
00:22:40,796 --> 00:22:43,596
business owners, entrepreneurs, you've
been through it, you've gone through
435
00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:46,506
the struggle, you go through it, you
have the wins, you have the losses.
436
00:22:46,776 --> 00:22:50,736
It's tough being a business owner, wearing
so many hats but we feel more connected
437
00:22:50,736 --> 00:22:52,106
with other business owners as well.
438
00:22:52,246 --> 00:22:55,056
So we'd just like to share
that opportunity for everybody.
439
00:22:55,056 --> 00:22:56,686
Jay Melone: I just
posted about this today.
440
00:22:56,736 --> 00:23:02,616
I changed topics and I used to only talk
about impact, only talk about the mission
441
00:23:02,616 --> 00:23:07,266
that I was on and serving people and I
gave away everything and I was afraid to
442
00:23:07,276 --> 00:23:09,406
really ask to charge what I was worth.
443
00:23:10,056 --> 00:23:15,096
And that cost me a whole bunch of
burnout and very few customers and so
444
00:23:15,096 --> 00:23:17,626
when I switch topics and change company.
445
00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:20,796
And the name of my company is profit
ladder, a lot of the people that had been
446
00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:25,806
following me for years told me that that
switch made them uncomfortable that I
447
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:27,636
talk about money and I prioritize money.
448
00:23:28,026 --> 00:23:30,976
So what I would stress to the
entrepreneur that's listening.
449
00:23:31,491 --> 00:23:35,011
Is that, there's a false dichotomy
between impact and income.
450
00:23:35,021 --> 00:23:36,031
You can have both.
451
00:23:36,061 --> 00:23:39,951
And I think if you treat money
as fuel, then you can see it as
452
00:23:39,951 --> 00:23:43,641
a tool that will only grow the
impact that you're able to have.
453
00:23:43,651 --> 00:23:47,691
So don't like get rid of all of
the sort of toxic relationships
454
00:23:47,691 --> 00:23:48,911
that we have around money.
455
00:23:48,911 --> 00:23:50,311
It is a tool and you can use it.
456
00:23:51,101 --> 00:23:51,551
Chris Troka: Absolutely.
457
00:23:51,551 --> 00:23:52,421
Very well said Jay.
458
00:23:52,421 --> 00:23:53,241
We appreciate it.
459
00:23:53,441 --> 00:23:56,291
Thank you again for coming on the
podcast to highlight your journey
460
00:23:56,301 --> 00:23:58,241
and give us some tips and tricks.
461
00:23:58,241 --> 00:23:59,291
We appreciate it so much.
462
00:23:59,291 --> 00:23:59,771
Thank you.
463
00:24:00,191 --> 00:24:00,781
Jay Melone: Got it, Chris.
