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You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Darius podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shapes your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.
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I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez.
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Today's episode is sponsored by Powered Body Care That Actually Works.
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Today's guest is Adriana, a narcissist abuse recovery coach and the voice behind Let's Get Your Shift Together.
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Adriana helps survivors stop second-guessing themselves, understand what actually happened to them, and rebuild a life that finally feels like their own.
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Her journey started with years of confusion, people pleasing, and chronic pain that no one can explain until she uncovered the connection between trauma, the body, and narcissistic abuse.
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Adriana, thank you so much for joining me today.
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I absolutely love the work that you're doing on your um on Instagram.
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It's um tell me what it is because I don't want to, because I always read it as Let Shit.
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And it cracks me up.
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So tell our, you know, our listeners what your Instagram is.
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Totally.
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Hey Noelani, thanks so much for having me.
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So excited to have you to be here.
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Um my Instagram is let's get your shift together.
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All one word, shift with an F.
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With an F, not without it.
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All right.
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Well, tell me, well, and tell our listeners who may not be not know your work or may be new to it.
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Can you um share what originally called you into supporting survivors of narcissistic abuse?
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Yeah, so this is gonna sound really random, but chronic pain.
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Interesting.
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No, that that's not random because we've been talking about this and um and how pain or how your nervous system deregulation, or how um autoimmune disorders, all those things are affected or caused by narcissistic abuse.
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So tell me a little bit more.
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How did you find this out?
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Totally.
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So in 2015, I got my wisdom teeth removed, basic routine thing.
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And then it was just like a downward spiral of hell.
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So I ended up with yeah, it was crazy.
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I ended up with migraines, TMJ dysfunction, I got carpal tunnel syndrome, I had to get surgery on one hand.
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Oh my goodness.
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Probably see my little scar somewhere.
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Yeah, yeah, I see it, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It was wild.
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And this was like before age 30.
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And then, yeah.
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And then like I was in physio doing acupuncture, like Botox for migraines, medical marijuana, all the things.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then in 2018, at the ripe old age of 30, I get shingles in my mouth.
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Oh my god, it's like you're like talking about okay, we'll talk about mine, but we'll okay, so you get shingles in your mouth.
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Oh my god.
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I'm sorry that happened to you too, apparently.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, I had shingles like all over my chest, but we'll talk about it.
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Yeah, totally.
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Totally.
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And this was actually my second time getting shingles.
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I got it when I was like 23 on like my lower back.
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Oh my gosh.
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Okay, like in my mouth.
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Oh my god, it was just like a whole show.
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It was it was the worst, yeah.
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And then I was doing this like stupid jaw treatment to like realign my face and maybe I didn't have migraines anymore.
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Right.
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It was it was bullshit, which we'll get to that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And um, yeah, basically I ended up with something called trigeminal neuralgia from the mouth shingles.
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It's nicknamed suicide disease because that's how my call it is.
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Yeah, okay.
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So I'm 30 at the time.
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I'm telling my husband, look, like I'm gonna give you another 10 years before you're probably gonna have to call yourself your a widower because if 30, is this bad?
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I am terrified of the age it has in store, right?
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Like it's it's gonna be a disaster.
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And like I'm already like in agony every single day.
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Like I can't, I don't know how much longer I can do this for.
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Right.
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And um, yeah, so then it was January of 2019.
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I'm you know, doom scrolling on Facebook, minding my own business, and the algorithm had just started getting kind of creepy at that point for like new things.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I think this, yeah, and I get this ad for an app called Curable, and it's marketed for people with chronic pain.
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And it says, like, this app can take away your pain.
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I'm completely desperate because I've tried absolutely everything.
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Yep.
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I'm assuming this app is maybe gonna like hypnotize me into thinking I'm not in pain or like something, something stupid like that.
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Yeah, and uh impulsively I buy a one-year subscription for it.
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I open it up and immediately I'm pissed off because it's telling me about how chronic pain is because of repressed emotions from childhood trauma.
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Yes, and I'm like, okay, well, I know my mom's a narcissist, but I don't have childhood trauma.
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I don't have repressed emotions.
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Right.
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I don't have emotions.
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Right.
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So I like completely rejected this right away.
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And then, you know, I'm pissed off for 24 hours, right?
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But I'm still in pain.
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So at that point, the next day, I'm like, Right.
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Let's see.
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Yeah.
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Let's see what happens.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Right.
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So I start using the app, it's like, you know, actually helping me.
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Um in my first two weeks of using it, I um had like a 20% reduction in my overall pain.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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And I'll never forget this.
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Yeah, I'll never forget this.
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I was with my husband, we're at our old place in our kitchen, and I had my first five minutes of no pain, and I was literally like, Am I gonna look down and see my dead body?
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Like, did I die?
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Right, right, right, right.
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What's going on?
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Like, I've never had this like no pain.
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Right.
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And it was just the weirdest thing.
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And um, of course, the came the pain came back a few minutes later, but I was okay, like let's keep going.
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So I'm uncovering all this stuff about, you know, how this was actually childhood trauma, and I had to repress my emotions to stay safe from my now late narcissistic mother.
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And uh, it just all made sense.
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And then within four months, I was pain free.
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And yeah, and I was basically that's amazing.
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Yeah.
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And I was pretty much like, I have to tell the world about like, you know, chronic pain and repressed emotions are a thing.
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And then I started Let's Get Your Shift Together in April of 2019.
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And then the more I started opening up, yeah, the more I started opening up about like having a narcissistic mother and how that caused me to repress my emotions and all that.
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Um, I here we are, right?
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Like, so it's narcissistic abuse recovery, but right do cover the mind-body connection in the work that I do with my clients.
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So, because it's all connected.
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Well, and that's a really interesting thing.
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My husband and I were talking about that because you know, their chronic stress causes so many things.
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And so many studies have been done in regards to like people of color, the way that you know, their ACES, their adverse early childhood experiences reduce their living, like their lifespan.
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And then if we throw in a narcissistic mom, I mean, I I always think about what it was like and how miserable I was before I stopped talking to my mom.
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And I know I say I our listeners are probably gonna be like tired of me saying this, but my husband really did save my life.
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He gave me the the ability to say, no, fuck you.
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I don't mean to do this.
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Like, and that is a really, really big thing.
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And we were talking, you know, briefly about just the world kind of is in this whole like uh feeling that we've felt for a really long time in regards to narcissistic abuse.
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And what we're seeing is it's the conversation is becoming more popular to have it, um, that it is people understanding this trauma-informed workspace or trauma-informed therapy or trauma-informed coaching, and that's a really big thing because I think on the other side of it, which I hope is sooner rather than later, but on the other side of it, we're gonna be a like better society if we can just get through this.
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Hopefully, fingers crossed, you know, from from from lips.
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Right, exactly.
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Um, why do you believe that narcissistic abuse, especially from a parent, feels so uniquely destabilizing compared to any other form of trauma?
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Totally, because your parents are supposed to be like your source of safety, right?
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So it's like this is how you learn how to human, you know, this is where you learn about the world and all that.
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And so when you're learning that from someone who's like just such a psycho hose beast for lack of a better term, yeah, this okay, yes, that's a the best term, yes.
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Totally it's that's what it is, exactly.
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And like you just learn like that, you're awful, there's something fundamentally wrong with you, and like you know, no one's gonna ever love you or put up with your bullshit or whatever, and you know, you kind of when you're a kid, you have no choice, right?
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Like you have to trust your parents, right?
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And you know, it's you're a you're vulnerable, yeah.
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You're a sponge, you're absorbing the world, and so this is the foundation that you get in life, and then you go out into the world and you think, like, okay, like so this is what love is because you literally don't know yes, anything different.
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Anything different.
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Well, and you know, the really interesting thing is you were talking about how um when you first read about this intense, you know, trauma that you experienced as a child, that you were like, whatever.
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I mean, I had the conversation yesterday with my husband.
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I was like, I don't remember a lot of my childhood.
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Same.
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And I was like, as I started reading about this information, what I realized was my childhood probably was really, really messed up.
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Like I remember, I remember my daughter being born, and that's pretty much like when my life began, because that was when I started the low contact with my mom, because it was like, I don't think that you're safe around to have my kid.
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Yeah.
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And then, right, and then no contact came pretty quickly.
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Well, it took me a little while, but no contact in the last 11 years, and I have to say, my like my life has been better as a result of it.
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It'll be 11 years in April.
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Um, thank you.
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Um, can you and one of the things that I really went through was, and I went through it alone because nobody was really talking about it, right?
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And you have right, you have idiots like um Mel Robbins and Oprah saying, Hey, and yes, I did call them idiots, saying, Hey, stop being a spoiled brat and talk to your mom.
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I'm like, okay, yeah, get your head out of your ass.
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Yeah, about reality.
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Right, exactly.
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And so, why is it so common for survivors to feel that intense shame when they need that boundary from their from their parent or the uh and for us for our moms?
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Yeah, because of idiots in the world like that, right?
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Because it's right, you know, it's the way I see it is like if someone is that ignorant that they can't conceive of like not everyone had the same childhood and the same mother.
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Right, right.
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You're either like an absolute moron, right, or you're an abuser yourself.
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Yes, a hundred percent.
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And the jury's still out, considering all the files haven't been released.
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So I won't make any assumptions, I won't make any accusations or anything, but I will say that, you know, um, in one of our episodes uh with a friend of mine, Victoria, we were talking about Harlow's monkeys.
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And with Harlow's monkeys, there's like this whole psychological experience, our experiment where they give a wire monkey with food and a wire monkey that has a terry cloth on it.
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And baby monkeys cling to that mother that has a terry cloth.
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And we've seen it like with Punch the Monkey, everyone's losing their mind because you know, punch is I said Punch's mom's an arc, like she's a narcissist, let you know, let him go.
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And but what we see is uh in a human form, yeah, is that we as human beings rather like cling to um that cold wire monkey are like our moms who like have no nurturing abilities, none of that stuff, just so that we can survive.
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Yeah.
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So how do you see that like showing up?
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Um, I don't have any brothers or sisters, and I thank God every day for that because they didn't have to deal with it.
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And I didn't have to compete against a golden child or be triangulated or any of that stuff.
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But when narcissism comes in the family system, how do you see this type of thing show up?
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This like clinging to the person who's the nurturing one because that attachment is for survival, right?
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Well, it's like it's conditioning, right?
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It's hardwired into you.
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That trust is built in between a mother and a child.
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So they there's literally, like I said before, there's no choice on the child's end, right?
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It's literally all they know.
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And so no matter how much logic you kind of throw at the situation as an adult, and you know, you can see it's once you like really understand narcissism, it's pretty black and white.
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These people are safe.
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But when you're in that bubble and you're the one who's been abused for that long, emotion overrides logic.
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Yep, all every time, and that's a thing, right?
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Because we talk about teenagers, teenagers are little emotion bubbles, right?
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Everywhere we have we have two of them right now, and then our older kids, and so we're they're they're they're fantastic.
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I love them.
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They're they crack me up, and so you know, we know that teenagers are kind of ruled by that emotion, and we uh we when we see that emotion, especially come up, and I think this is how our moms manipulated us.
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Well, me, I know for sure, and others that are listening, is they show like that little bit of emotion.
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It's like, here, here's a tiny little breadcrumb.
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And you're like, Well, they gave me a breadcrumb 25 years ago, they're probably gonna do it again, right?
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And that maddening is the other thing that drives you crazy, right?
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You're just waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting for that.
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And you know, we are humans, so we can hold two complex feelings at once.
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And like for me, I always say, I love my mom because she had me, but my mom's a piece of shit because she, you know, did all the things she did to me, and that's us being a human.
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Um, can you explain maybe why survivors still crave that connection from that abusive parent?
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Even when, like intellectually we know that it's unsafe.
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So, you know, maybe we've pulled away, we've got no contact, low contact.
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Why do we go back um as a result of that?
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Yeah, um, in my opinion, it's repressed grief, right?
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Because we're clinging onto this false hope that they're gonna change, they're gonna have this coming to God moment, they're gonna finally take accountability.
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We got that one little breadcrumb 25 years ago.
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Yeah.
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And that's, you know, that's what we cling on to because we're not, you know, we don't know, or we refuse to because it it's not safe to feel your emotions because that's what you learned your whole life.
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Right.
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So you're not doing the grieving that you need to do about the mother that you never had, the mother that you wish you had, the mother that you deserved, the childhood you missed out on.
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And, you know, people don't do that inner work or don't even know that you can.
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And so it's in my opinion, it's because that inner work isn't hasn't been done fully yet.
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And so you're still gonna cling on to that little piece of false hope because you haven't properly grieved the situation.
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And yeah, you do have to grieve someone who's still alive if the parent's still alive.
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Well, and that and that I think is a really important thing that you still have to grieve them because I think that you can't get to the other side of who your mom really is.
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And grief is, you know, there's a five-stage of grief that we talk about that Elizabeth Elizabeth Kubler talked about, and they're not linear.
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So you can't, you're gonna go through denial, which is like, I can't believe this is happening.
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Why is my mom such a piece of shit?
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You're gonna get really angry, which is why is my mom such a piece of shit?
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This isn't fair.
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Um, you're gonna bargain.
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Well, if my mom does this, or if she does this, then I'll be it'll be okay.
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I can get through it.
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Um, you're gonna go through a stent of depression and then you're gonna go through that acceptance.
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And they don't happen in a linear fashion, they go back and forth.
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And I think one of the things that's really important to me is to say that you're not broken if you're going through that.
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Exactly.
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Like it's totally normal.
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Yeah, you're a human.
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It means you're alive.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:24.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.839
I think that's I think that's a really important thing to say.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.480
Now, you indicated earlier that it was chronic pain.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.160
I talked about like for me, stress, like shingles.
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.119
Like I've never, you're the first person that I've met that has gotten shingles under 50.
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.400
Well, like where, and and I remember my doctor saying, You're stressed out.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:47.839
This is because of stress.
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.680
And it wasn't because uh my mom was even, I wasn't even talking to her.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:56.559
It was just she was leaving messages and leaving messages and leaving messages, and I was going through it.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:05.519
So I think that narcissism, I think that any trauma really kind of reshapes your nervous system long term.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:13.519
So for us it showed up in certain ways, but how would someone kind of see that as they're like thinking about is my mom a narcissist?
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:15.759
Am I in a narcissistic relationship?
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:22.720
How can you are how can you tell us how this can really reshape your nervous system long term?
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.119
Yeah, I mean, if you're walking on eggshells, right, your nervous system's activated, right?
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:34.720
So it's you know, like if you with normal people, you're not even questioning anything.
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:35.279
Right.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:36.960
Because it's just it's normal.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.480
Like you, you're not like googling behavior, you're not right, right.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:46.720
You're not in that state of hypervigilance, you're not always questioning yourself and stuff like that, right?
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:54.400
And I tell people all the time that like if you're not a hundred percent sure if someone's a narcissist, don't worry about that.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.480
Stop looking at the signs, go inwards to your emotions.
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.200
Do you feel guilt, shame, or fear?
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:08.079
I tell my clients all the time, these are the three musketeers, and add on to that confusion, sense of obligation.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:14.319
If you feel any of those things around this person, whatever you want to call them, it doesn't matter, they're bad news.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.720
Right.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:29.680
Well, and that's really good, like to help people understand that those three things, and then adding those things on, because it is like right now, there's the whole like, oh, they're anarch, oh, they're toxic, uh, like it's commonplace.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.960
And it does take a special diagnosis, which narcissists are so rarely diagnosed.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:35.359
Exactly.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.799
They don't go to therapy.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:37.599
Yeah.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:43.200
So, but in the DSM, um, there is, you know, certain traits that they have to have.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:53.279
So even if they have narcissistic trend tendencies, or even if they're an asshole, like anything that makes you feel any of those things kind of spike.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:08.079
And and for abuse like survivors, sometimes that like we bury those things down, of course, are you know, whether or not we are gonna do certain things or feel certain things.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.960
And I think for uh for me personally, it's always in my stomach.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:22.720
So if I start like if we're talking about a stressful situation, if I'm in a stressful situation, my stomach always starts to hurt like instantly.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:30.000
So there are like physiological clues for you to like uh and we've learned to ignore them.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:30.799
Like that's the thing.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.119
Right what the narcissist wanted, right?
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:34.240
That's what she wanted.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.519
You know, your heart rate.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.960
Oh, you're just running around.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.400
No, you're being a freak.
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.519
Like, this is too much.
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.440
Like, why are you being like this?
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:47.920
Um, all of those things I think are really like important for you to like come back to as you're healing.
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.880
I think understanding and trusting your body.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.839
Yes, your body's always talking to you, right?
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.400
And it could be heart palpitations, it could be, you know, you start to sweat.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.640
Mine is my stomach, my is it's always my guide for me.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:12.720
How do you, when you're dealing with your your clients that either op like operate in that hypervigilance?
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.640
I my hypervigilance comes out whenever there's conflict.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.319
So like I will start cleaning the house, like cleaning the counters like one spot over and over again.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.880
I'll focus or ruminate on things.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:36.480
Um, or if I've had like a long day of a lot of clients, because I tend to absorb a lot of things, I will like lie on the couch and fawn and I'll just doom scroll right now.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.880
Now that we have that, that's what I do.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.880
How do you help your clients understand that these things, right?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:52.640
Whether it's the fawning, doom scrolling, their hypervigilance, the people pleasing are adaptations and not character flaws for them.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:53.440
Yeah.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:58.640
So, you know, I I always bring it back to repressed emotions because that's what it is, right?
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Like if you're fawning.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.319
You're doing that for a reason because you're repressing guilt, shame, or fear.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:04.799
Right.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:08.960
You're trying to prove yourself to the narcissist in your life.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:09.359
Why?
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:09.680
Right.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:17.039
So it's like you have to, I tell my clients, you have to get curious about your behavior, about what you're feeling.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.799
Because any of that behavior, right?
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:27.119
The fawning, the freezing, the fight or flight, the perfectionism, the overachieving, the doom scrolling, the go, go, go all the time.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:33.279
Whatever you're doing to distract whatever you're doing, it is to distract yourself from a difficult emotion.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.359
And you were taught at a young age that it's not safe to have these emotions.
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.799
So you have to repress them.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.640
So you have to keep reminding yourself that it is safe to feel my emotions.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:50.240
And when you catch yourself, even if you catch yourself the next day, it's still a win because we've been decades not even knowing any of this stuff.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:50.799
Yes.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:51.200
Right.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.759
So never ever beat yourself up if, like, you know, it's like, oh my God, that's what I was doing last week when I was ruminating.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:58.160
Right.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.400
Right.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.759
That was distracting me from the emotion of like fear or whatever.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:06.000
Because I was scared that, you know, my mom was going to yell at me or whatever it is.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:06.960
Yeah.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.720
At least you figured it out.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:16.640
And the more that you kind of reflect on those moments, you start recognizing which emotion was scared was repressed and why.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.799
You start creating, you start rewiring your own brain.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:21.200
Right.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:21.599
Yes.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:21.839
Right.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:27.039
Because it's like you're teaching your brain that it's I'm not going to die from feeling this emotion.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:27.599
Yes.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:28.000
Yes.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.920
And you know the consequences of not feeling that emotion, right?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:47.839
Like it's, it's really, you kind of, you know, my I hate to put it this way, but like my clients or anyone wanting to heal, you kind of have to be in like a state of desperation to like not waste any more time on this bullshit in order for it to really stick, right?
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.400
So it's like you have to recognize you only live once, you only have so much time on this planet.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.319
Just do the freaking work.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:07.440
You know, it's so funny because we my husband and I were just having this conversation, just like talking about, well, what can you do to like prolong your life once you realize that you've done this and that like this?
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.640
The longer that you can say, okay, I'm gonna protect my peace, and this is what I'm gonna do.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.119
And just and you don't, if you're not ready to look over mom, that's fine.
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:23.599
I get it, but like but be ready for the consequences of that, right?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:24.799
Exact exactly.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.279
And for me, I was like, uh, it is a life or death, which is why I got so mad when Oprah was like, What's the big deal?
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:32.960
I was like, fuck you, it's life or death.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:42.640
Like, you don't understand my nervous system is collapsing on top of itself, and and I and I'm thinking that everything is a danger, yeah.
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:55.680
That and I think that's the big thing because maybe you you say to yourself, okay, well, my mom's not that bad, but it is not just the abuse that she's like giving you at this moment, it is the effects of that.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.240
So everything is that is danger, right?
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:10.559
And for me now, one of the really funny things is because we moved a lot as a result of you know, my mom being bad with money, my dad being bad with money when they got a divorce.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:18.160
Anytime my husband moves furniture in the house, like like let's just say we're we're just re like changing things around, we want to change it up.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.599
I like start to panic.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:26.720
And he doesn't do it that often, but I would like I start to panic, and I I realized that that was the click for me.
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:35.440
I was like, okay, and now I just get frustrated, and so now I'm trying to get past the frustration to be like, no, this is our home, you know.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:42.799
He this is where we live, and as a result of that, we're we can make it, we can have things however we want to.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:43.039
Yeah.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:50.079
So that that I think for a lot of people who are going through this work is there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.640
You might feel like you're on fire or you're burning.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:59.039
Like I I constantly always like conflict makes me feel like I'm on fire, like I want to tamp it down.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:05.440
Um, you will get to the other side um either by no contact, that's number one, right?
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:11.440
Your mom's not around and you're like, okay, I I I didn't I'm alive, I'm good, or perimenopause.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.440
And I say that because you like, you're like, whatever, I don't care, right?
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.440
Um, and the the the blessing is if they happen together.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.079
So if we can get them together, that's a huge thing.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:34.240
Um, you know, what do you believe is um some early and gentle steps that someone can take when they're just beginning this journey?
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.880
Let's say they're just starting, maybe they've gotten no contact for, you know, a month.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.960
How can they be gentle with themselves?
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:49.759
Yeah, I mean, just really kind of connecting with your inner child and recognizing that you had no shot in hell, right?
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.759
Like none of this was your fault.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:57.759
There was nothing you needed to figure out as a kid in order to prevent anything, right?
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:07.039
Like you were duped, you were dealt a shitty hand, and you know, like it's okay to let it suck.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:08.400
Right?
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:13.279
Let yourself be upset about it, let yourself feel exactly how you feel about it.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.119
Maybe don't tell a lot of people because not that many people are gonna understand.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:28.480
And, you know, that's 99% of people in most cases that and that's again not a character flaw on your end, right?
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.599
No, not at all.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:42.480
A lot of the times it's like, you know, if you're lucky enough to find, you know, a coach or like a group or like a community or something that gets it, great, but not everyone has that or has access to that.
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.519
And so you have to kind of become your own best friend.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:45.920
Yeah.
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:55.200
It can be a little intimidating, but at the end of the day, like one day at a time, one baby step, one emotion at a time, and just focus on now.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.559
Like, don't look at the whole staircase, just look at the next step.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:27:59.039
Right.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.720
Yeah, and I would say that, like, I, you know, I'll say it again.
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:08.160
My husband saved my life because he understood the abuse, like he understood the the narc abuse.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.960
The the his narc abuse was not from his mom or his dad, who I loved death.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.160
Like they are fantastic, they're amazing, chosen family.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:17.839
I am incredibly blessed.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.920
His experience was somewhere else, but he was like, Your mom's anarch.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:23.279
And I was like, What?
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:24.319
What are you talking about?
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.519
He's like, She's anarch, and what she's doing to you is not okay.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.759
I was like, Oh, okay.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.920
And that permission was a big thing, and not many people understand that.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:40.640
When I say things like, I don't talk to my entire family, people like really question that.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.279
Yep.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.440
And they're like, Well, why?
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.480
I don't understand.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.160
And I'm like, My mom's a narcissist.
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.319
My, you know, my dad's out of the family is racist because I'm biracial.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:53.279
They don't understand.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.359
They were flying monkeys for my mom.
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:01.200
I can sit and talk to you for a really long time about it, or we can just like be friends and that's cool.
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:01.440
Yeah.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:01.759
Right.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.480
And they don't even bother to question like what did your family do to make you want to talk to them, right?
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:07.119
Like it's why.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.200
Well, and that's a that's always to me the the interesting thing.
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:19.839
And like, I just had this really great conversation with my daughter because we were talking about, you know, family politics, just the way families run and whatnot.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:26.880
And I said, you know, I haven't done a good job of like teaching you that because I'm like, okay, if you're gonna be on my mom's side, peace out.
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:27.440
Right.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:35.119
And so that effect does affect her, and it's something that we are learning together because we just have each other, and that's okay.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.359
And we talked about it, and she's like, okay, I totally understand it.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.559
Cause from an intellectual standpoint, she's like, Okay, I get it.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.319
I totally understand.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:53.519
What always this was the this was the excuse that my grandparents and I love my grandfather, um, his like soul rest in peace.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.079
But what they he and my grandmother did was, oh, she's just an immigrant, she doesn't know.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:29:59.519
I'm like, no.
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:00.720
Yep.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.200
Everyone knows how to love their kid.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.079
Like, so like let me make this clear.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:12.240
Like, um, everyone knows how to love their kid, no matter what the language doesn't matter, no matter where they come from.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.559
That excuse is not an okay excuse.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:17.119
Exactly.
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:18.720
It's just not, it's not okay.
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.400
Like, I can't express that enough.
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:29.839
So, any person who is experiencing this, and maybe their mom is an immigrant, and maybe that's totally okay.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.400
And she knows how to love.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.039
Exactly.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:39.119
My mom was an immigrant too, and that excuse was used so much until I realized oh me nuts.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:39.920
Doesn't matter.
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:41.359
Yeah, it doesn't matter where you're from.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.599
Yeah, fans know how to love their kids.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.160
Yes, that's and it's so crazy to me.
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:57.359
Like it is an innate, like very basic foundation animal experience, which is why, you know, I called Punches Mom anarc because, like, who does that to their kid?
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:57.920
Yeah, right.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.000
Like, that's yeah, exactly.
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:09.039
So, why do you think like going low contact or non-contact or no contact is really such a long and painful process for people?
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.160
Yeah, um, because that conditioning runs deep, right?
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:28.640
It's not until decades of your life has passed that you even realize that your mom's a narcissist or your dad or whoever, and you're undoing however old you are, years worth of that conditioning.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.759
So a lot of people, you know, they'll go back and forth.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:32.880
I did that too.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.359
Like, you know, I would break no contact a lot with my late narcissistic mother.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:37.599
Yeah.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:48.000
Um I would go low contact, try to, you know, put myself into a pretzel to kind of like tolerate her in certain situations.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:50.319
Like it it was not worth it in hindsight.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.519
Obviously, she's been dead for like six years now, and it's right, right.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:54.640
So freeing.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.000
I know, I know, I know.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:56.880
Great.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.200
So like so terrible to say, but in this context, I know whatever.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:01.680
Right.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.279
Well, and that's actually a really good, that's a good question.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:21.599
And I know like we hadn't discussed this, but one of the things, like for me, what I see in the group that I support is like women having um like issues because a lot of their moms are older, so maybe care for their mom or whatever.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.000
And I'm like, fuck it, I'm not caring for my mom.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:28.400
She's gonna have to figure that shit out exactly when when she goes through all this stuff.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.200
And I hate to say that because it makes me seem like let me be very clear.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:37.200
I'm probably one of the most loving people that I know, and fuck her.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:38.880
Like, I can't express that enough.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:48.000
Absolutely, um, absolutely, and like it's it's so entitled for a parent to come with this idea that oh, I'm gonna have a kid just for elder care.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.240
Yes, yeah, exactly.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.480
Yeah, well, and you know, I'm gonna take care of my dad because my dad, I love him to death.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:02.160
It's just when I think about my mom, like somebody, the only reason why I know my mom hasn't died yet is because she has contact with my daughter.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:08.559
And my daughter is like, I have to say, she is 30, she's super good at like this is my boundary.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.519
She does it with me too.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:15.119
What if I'm like asking a little bit too much about dating or anything, she's like, mom, and I'm like, okay, got it.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:15.599
Right.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:22.880
So she she's really good at drawing that boundary for her and her grandmother.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:30.720
Now I've seen her cross other boundaries, and then I have a conversation with her, and then she comes back usually and says, Oh my god, you're totally right.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:38.000
Um, and I remember this one time um I was away for a business trip and my mom had watched her, and my daughter was really young.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:42.960
She was uh seven or eight, and she called me and she was in tears, and my mom was watching her.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:55.200
I was gonna be gone for like three or four days, and she's like, Mom, all grandma is doing is talking about how horrible you are and what a horrible person you are, and how much you like, what a bad mom you are.
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:59.440
Can you please, please, please call your best friend to come pick me up?
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:00.240
Please.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:01.839
And I was like, Oh my gosh.
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.279
So I called my best friend at the time who secretly also was a narcissist, but I didn't quite know that.
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.360
I called her and I was like, Hey, do you mind picking up my daughter?
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:18.239
So, you know, she's got school, but my you she knew that my mom was crazy too, probably because she was like, Oh, she's like me.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:23.280
Um, so she picked her up, and then you know, I was back in a day or so.
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.000
And my daughter still remembers that.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.440
She's like, so she has like a different shield for her.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:36.719
As soon as she starts to talk about me in any fashion, she's like, Nope, that's you and my mom.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:41.599
If you want a relationship with me, we talk about me stuff, but I'm not talking about my mom.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.039
And it's it's I'm actually like really impressed.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:52.000
And I'm gonna tell her to listen to this podcast so that she could hear me talk about and um hear how I gassed her up and how awesome she is.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:57.519
Because that's a really like it's a tool that I never learned and she's learned on her own.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:08.960
Um, how do you support your clients through the grief that often comes through accepting that their mother is a piece of shit and I'm just gonna go there and say it and who she's never gonna be.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:09.679
Yeah.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.760
Um, you know, a lot of it is just telling them what they need to hear.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.519
Like I'm sure you've observed in my content, I do not sugarcoat things.
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.280
So no, I love it and I love it.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:19.920
I love it.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:22.480
So people come to me for that.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:23.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.079
Don't work with me if you want things sugarcoated.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:44.800
Yeah, but you know, basically like just the hard truths and radical acceptance of those hard truths, and just making space for how you feel about it and letting yourself feel exactly how you feel, like letting it suck, letting it just be like such bullshit that this is the hand you were dealt.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.400
Yeah, yeah, it is bullshit.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:56.559
Yeah, right, because no one's gonna give you that permission to let it suck because we live in a society of toxic positivity of like, oh, just be positive or stop being a brat and call your mother.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.400
Fuck you guys, fuck you guys.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:35:59.679
That's all I have to say about that.
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:09.280
You know, it's so funny because I do um well in our other work, my husband and I own a consulting firm and we do a lot of work with like trauma-informed organizations.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:18.559
And one of the things we talk about is okay, like I understand that you have learned that you can just shit all over everyone.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:20.000
Like, that's what I'm gonna do.
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:21.760
I'm just gonna shit all over everyone.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.239
And that's not this organization.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:32.480
And I had a question from someone say, and they said, Well, do we place intent forward or do we place impact forward?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.639
And I was like, it's impact.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:39.519
Like you the impact of your word is huge, and we see that all the time.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:44.320
We see it in art, we see the what stays with us is the impact.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:52.639
If I if an artist says, My intent for this art is for you to feel this way, you're like, eh, fuck you, that's not the way that I feel.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:37:01.920
The impact is this, and I think that's a really, really important thing because oftentimes our moms will say, Well, that's not what I intended when I called you fat.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.880
I was like, um, hello, impact, right?
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.599
You know, that's that I think is really important.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:18.880
And if anyone takes that away, is for you to be able to say, okay, I intend to do this and let me think about what my impact is gonna be.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.719
And that's not an easy thing.
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:25.280
Like, by at the end of the day, if you're thinking like that, you're gonna be exhausted.
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:26.079
And that's good.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:30.320
That's a good exhaustion to think about what your impact is gonna bring.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.840
Like, I'm sure there's a thousand people that I want to be like, hey, don't drive like an asshole.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:43.039
Like, I could be screaming that out the window, but if I smile as they drive by, that impact's different, and maybe they might change their mind.
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.280
That I think that's really big.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:53.199
Um, what do you say to people who feel selfish are are being told that they're selfish for choosing that distance?
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.320
So that is that's not your selfishness to feel, right?
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:08.480
Your narcissistic parent was the selfish one choosing to bring you in this world or adopt you or however they acquired you wasn't had no choice in the matter.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:09.280
Right, right.
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.719
Right to you don't choose to come to this shithole.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:14.639
That one, yeah, that one.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:15.440
I want that one.
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:16.000
Exactly.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:17.280
I want that to be my mom.
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.639
It does not work that way.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:19.440
Yeah, exactly.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:35.599
They were selfish for however they acquired you and choosing to abuse you, choosing to have a role for you, choosing to have you as the extension of themselves, as a little mini-me, as like a little puppet that they could manipulate.
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:36.000
Right.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:49.519
And so instead of you know, them reflecting on that like a normal person would, they projected that selfishness onto you and made you believe that anything you do for yourself, including distancing yourself, is is selfish.
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:59.519
And at the end of the day, what people have to understand is adults are allowed to decide which other adults they want to associate with or not, relatives included.
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:00.079
Right.
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.079
We have agency, we have agency.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:02.880
That's the big thing.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.480
And no one has no one's entitled to accessing you.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.559
No, and you know, that's a really big thing.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.760
I think that you know, um, I don't know if you have kids.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:20.960
I I often I love my four kids, I love them to death, and you know, it's just so expensive and all those things, right?
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:27.280
But I know for me, I could have chosen to go down the same path.
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:29.679
I could have hurt because I hurt.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:40.800
And I I have confessed that I definitely was a yeller with my daughter when I when she was younger, but for me, that was just immaturity.
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:46.000
I didn't know how to express those feelings with a frustration or whatever was going on.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.960
And once I did, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that I was yelling at you all the time.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:40:17.440
And we've had real good discussions about that because you know, the process to be able to process information, and quite frankly, I think that my mom probably created these bombs in my head to then create another child that was gonna be exactly like that and then be subservient to her and the the whole thing, which thank goodness that she's not, but I think that you know it's never too late to change your mind.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.239
That's number one.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:23.599
I always say that, I say that all the time, and it's never too late to say I'm sorry, exactly.
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:32.480
And I'm gonna tell our listener the hint when you say I'm sorry, it's just I'm sorry, exactly, nothing else, exactly.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.400
Narcissists continue it on with body, blah blah blah blah blah.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:40.719
If they if you can even write I'm sorry out of them, yeah yes, exactly.
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:53.039
And anybody who says more than I'm sorry is not saying I'm sorry because they hurt you, they're saying I'm sorry because they feel some kind of way because they hurt you, exactly.
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.760
And and that's not the way to do it, you know.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:09.039
How do you think that healing from a narcissistic abusive relationship can change the way people show up in relationships or at work or like in parenting, like we were just talking about?
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:12.239
Yeah, I mean, it it changes you for the better, right?
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:17.840
Like you're not as trusting of people, which can sound like a bad thing, but no one's entitled to your trust.
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:19.280
It's something that's earned, right?
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:25.119
And I feel like a lot of us that were raised by narcissists, we just willy-nilly here you go to the wind.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:25.440
Yeah.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.639
You know, I trust you with everything.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.960
And it backfires.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:43.039
So you know, you you show up with more discernment and more presence, and you're, you know, you're not like hoping, you know, oh my god, we're gonna be best friends or whatever.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:50.639
It's more sort of like in that observer mode and right, you know, like in the less of a codependent kind of way, if that makes sense.
00:41:51.119 --> 00:42:10.719
Absolutely makes sense, you know, and one of the things that that I've really come to terms with, and you've probably seen a lot of your clients come to terms with, I've I've seen our our clients do the same, is what do you think becomes possible when someone truly internalizes that it wasn't their fault?
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.280
Anything, yeah.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:33.360
Yeah, yeah, you can, you know, like they just get so many opportunities in life because you're not gonna feel like you don't deserve anything good in life, you're gonna go for better opportunities, you're not gonna be wasting time with people that are just draining you and sabotaging any success that you could have.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.960
That and that's a huge thing.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:46.480
I think a lot for a lot of narcissistic abuse survivors, no matter where they are in their surviving or their healing, there is so much time that's wasted.
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:48.159
Yes, because of that.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:49.920
And that was what your mom wanted.
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.360
Like, I can't express that.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:58.400
That's because she wanted you to come back to her, she wanted you to waste time, she wanted you to suffer, whatever it was, she wanted that.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:02.639
And that's the that I think is the really interesting thing.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:13.840
Um as we like wrap up and you think about your the survivors that you've helped, or you think about people who you might be able to help.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.639
Um, what gives you the most hope when working with any survivors?
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.400
The fact that they even reach out for help to begin with, right?
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:28.320
Like if you're not open to the help to begin with, there's no hope, right?
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:40.800
But if you're actually showing up for yourself, that tells me that there's at least a little bit of you that loves yourself enough to know that like something's not right here, and I need to do something for myself.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:49.440
And that's the biggest gift you can give yourself is just getting the right support from you know whoever the right person is, not necessarily me in every case, right?
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:57.760
I'm not for everyone, but like just getting that support is a huge gift to yourself and learning how to be your own healer basically.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.840
Because you have all the answers at the end of the day.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:11.599
Well, and that's one of the things I I find really interesting about the healing community is like just like a therapist or a doctor or whatever, you're gonna need someone who you feel comfortable with.
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.840
That I'm not always gonna be that person.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.440
And that, and I'm okay with that.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:16.880
Like I don't get hurt about that.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:24.639
Like I'm like, okay, here's like 10 other people that we've either had on the podcast or that I'm you know connected to in Instagram.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:25.920
Go to someone there.
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:36.639
That like all I care about is that healing part because ultimately, like if you're healing, then you know the world, every healing person, the world becomes a better place.
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:37.440
Exactly.
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:44.960
What's one thing that you want people to remember or think about when they think about like this podcast or what we are saying?
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.400
Like, what's one piece of information that you want them to leave with?
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:50.239
It wasn't your fault.
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:51.920
Right?
00:44:52.079 --> 00:45:02.960
You had no choice, you were forced into this situation, you had no idea what was going on, and the fact that you found out, right?
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:08.719
And like I don't care how old you are, you figured it out in this lifetime, right?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.320
And that's all that matters.
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:11.679
That's huge.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:24.000
Um, that I think is a really beautiful thing, and I think for any person who's experiencing narcissistic abuse, whether it's familial or romantic or whatever it is, it was it isn't your fault.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:26.159
And it doesn't matter when you find out.
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:34.880
If you find out, you know, there's one person who I had on the podcast who's a friend, she 33 years into marriage, she figured it out.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.039
Yeah, and she was like, All right, peace out.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:38.559
Yeah, she figured it out.
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:44.480
You know, we're gonna put in the show notes how to get a hold of you, how to connect with you on Instagram, how to get your work.
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:50.480
But I just want to say thank you for being my, you know, one of my sisters in healing and breaking the cycle.
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.880
I can't thank you enough for being here.
00:45:53.199 --> 00:46:00.480
I've absolutely loved getting to know you and would love to have you back on because narcissism is never gonna end.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.719
So we're we have tons of stuff to talk about.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:03.360
So thank you.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:04.639
I'd love to come back.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:05.920
Thanks so much for having me.
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:12.960
Yeah, thank you so much for being here with me today and for naming things so clearly in our community.
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:19.360
The way you talk about rebuilding self-trust and showing up with discernment, it really matters more than you know.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:26.320
If this episode resonated with you, make sure that you follow the podcast so you don't miss what's coming up next.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:31.519
And if you know someone who is still trying to make sense of what they went through, send this to them.
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.559
It might be the thing that finally helps them.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:41.039
Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.360
You're not broken, you adapted.
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:48.960
Healing from a narcissistic mother is real, possible, and you never have to do it with shame.
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:55.119
I'm your host, Nalani Pearl Hernandez, and until next time, take gentle care of yourself.
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.800
Your skin is a part of your nervous system, and taking care of it is essential to overall balance.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:09.519
Our products are specifically formulated to nourish your skin and bring you closer to homeostasis with every use.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.599
Start feeling better in your body today with the Happy Cannabust.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:12.400
You're listening to the Beyond Mommy Darius podcast, where we talk about growing up with narcissistic moms, how it shapes your nervous system, your relationships, and your sense of self, and how to heal without shame.
00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.960
I'm your host, Nelani Pearl Hernandez.
00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:20.320
Today's episode is sponsored by Powered Body Care That Actually Works.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:28.559
Today's guest is Adriana, a narcissist abuse recovery coach and the voice behind Let's Get Your Shift Together.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:37.439
Adriana helps survivors stop second-guessing themselves, understand what actually happened to them, and rebuild a life that finally feels like their own.
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:49.280
Her journey started with years of confusion, people pleasing, and chronic pain that no one can explain until she uncovered the connection between trauma, the body, and narcissistic abuse.
00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.960
Adriana, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:58.799
I absolutely love the work that you're doing on your um on Instagram.
00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:04.719
It's um tell me what it is because I don't want to, because I always read it as Let Shit.
00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:07.439
And it cracks me up.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.400
So tell our, you know, our listeners what your Instagram is.
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:13.040
Totally.
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.120
Hey Noelani, thanks so much for having me.
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.599
So excited to have you to be here.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.959
Um my Instagram is let's get your shift together.
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:23.359
All one word, shift with an F.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.239
With an F, not without it.
00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:26.719
All right.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:33.519
Well, tell me, well, and tell our listeners who may not be not know your work or may be new to it.
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:39.200
Can you um share what originally called you into supporting survivors of narcissistic abuse?
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:42.959
Yeah, so this is gonna sound really random, but chronic pain.
00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:43.920
Interesting.
00:01:44.079 --> 00:02:04.400
No, that that's not random because we've been talking about this and um and how pain or how your nervous system deregulation, or how um autoimmune disorders, all those things are affected or caused by narcissistic abuse.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:05.599
So tell me a little bit more.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:06.879
How did you find this out?
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:07.760
Totally.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:15.039
So in 2015, I got my wisdom teeth removed, basic routine thing.
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.400
And then it was just like a downward spiral of hell.
00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.439
So I ended up with yeah, it was crazy.
00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:27.599
I ended up with migraines, TMJ dysfunction, I got carpal tunnel syndrome, I had to get surgery on one hand.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:28.400
Oh my goodness.
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:30.080
Probably see my little scar somewhere.
00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:31.520
Yeah, yeah, I see it, yeah.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:32.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:33.759
It was wild.
00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:35.840
And this was like before age 30.
00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.680
And then, yeah.
00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:45.120
And then like I was in physio doing acupuncture, like Botox for migraines, medical marijuana, all the things.
00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:46.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:52.639
And then in 2018, at the ripe old age of 30, I get shingles in my mouth.
00:02:52.960 --> 00:03:00.000
Oh my god, it's like you're like talking about okay, we'll talk about mine, but we'll okay, so you get shingles in your mouth.
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:00.719
Oh my god.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:02.719
I'm sorry that happened to you too, apparently.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:03.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:07.039
Well, I had shingles like all over my chest, but we'll talk about it.
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:08.319
Yeah, totally.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:08.879
Totally.
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.039
And this was actually my second time getting shingles.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.680
I got it when I was like 23 on like my lower back.
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:14.080
Oh my gosh.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:15.919
Okay, like in my mouth.
00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.680
Oh my god, it was just like a whole show.
00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:21.439
It was it was the worst, yeah.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:29.120
And then I was doing this like stupid jaw treatment to like realign my face and maybe I didn't have migraines anymore.
00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:29.439
Right.
00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:32.080
It was it was bullshit, which we'll get to that.
00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:33.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:40.159
And um, yeah, basically I ended up with something called trigeminal neuralgia from the mouth shingles.
00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:43.360
It's nicknamed suicide disease because that's how my call it is.
00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:44.080
Yeah, okay.
00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:46.159
So I'm 30 at the time.
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:53.360
I'm telling my husband, look, like I'm gonna give you another 10 years before you're probably gonna have to call yourself your a widower because if 30, is this bad?
00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.240
I am terrified of the age it has in store, right?
00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:58.080
Like it's it's gonna be a disaster.
00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.039
And like I'm already like in agony every single day.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.919
Like I can't, I don't know how much longer I can do this for.
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:04.479
Right.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.159
And um, yeah, so then it was January of 2019.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:16.879
I'm you know, doom scrolling on Facebook, minding my own business, and the algorithm had just started getting kind of creepy at that point for like new things.
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:17.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:24.480
And I think this, yeah, and I get this ad for an app called Curable, and it's marketed for people with chronic pain.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.360
And it says, like, this app can take away your pain.
00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.639
I'm completely desperate because I've tried absolutely everything.
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:31.040
Yep.
00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:38.800
I'm assuming this app is maybe gonna like hypnotize me into thinking I'm not in pain or like something, something stupid like that.
00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:43.360
Yeah, and uh impulsively I buy a one-year subscription for it.
00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:55.439
I open it up and immediately I'm pissed off because it's telling me about how chronic pain is because of repressed emotions from childhood trauma.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:00.240
Yes, and I'm like, okay, well, I know my mom's a narcissist, but I don't have childhood trauma.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:01.920
I don't have repressed emotions.
00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:02.160
Right.
00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:03.759
I don't have emotions.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:04.160
Right.
00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.279
So I like completely rejected this right away.
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.319
And then, you know, I'm pissed off for 24 hours, right?
00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:11.680
But I'm still in pain.
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.120
So at that point, the next day, I'm like, Right.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:16.560
Let's see.
00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:16.720
Yeah.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:17.920
Let's see what happens.
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:19.120
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:19.600
Right.
00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:24.079
So I start using the app, it's like, you know, actually helping me.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:30.480
Um in my first two weeks of using it, I um had like a 20% reduction in my overall pain.
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:30.959
Yeah.
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:31.519
Wow.
00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:33.680
And I'll never forget this.
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.600
Yeah, I'll never forget this.
00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:44.560
I was with my husband, we're at our old place in our kitchen, and I had my first five minutes of no pain, and I was literally like, Am I gonna look down and see my dead body?
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:45.199
Like, did I die?
00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:46.639
Right, right, right, right.
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:47.279
What's going on?
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.040
Like, I've never had this like no pain.
00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:51.360
Right.
00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:53.120
And it was just the weirdest thing.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:59.759
And um, of course, the came the pain came back a few minutes later, but I was okay, like let's keep going.
00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:11.759
So I'm uncovering all this stuff about, you know, how this was actually childhood trauma, and I had to repress my emotions to stay safe from my now late narcissistic mother.
00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:13.920
And uh, it just all made sense.
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.319
And then within four months, I was pain free.
00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.040
And yeah, and I was basically that's amazing.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:19.519
Yeah.
00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:25.600
And I was pretty much like, I have to tell the world about like, you know, chronic pain and repressed emotions are a thing.
00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.600
And then I started Let's Get Your Shift Together in April of 2019.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:37.920
And then the more I started opening up, yeah, the more I started opening up about like having a narcissistic mother and how that caused me to repress my emotions and all that.
00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:39.839
Um, I here we are, right?
00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:45.920
Like, so it's narcissistic abuse recovery, but right do cover the mind-body connection in the work that I do with my clients.
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.279
So, because it's all connected.
00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.120
Well, and that's a really interesting thing.
00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:58.319
My husband and I were talking about that because you know, their chronic stress causes so many things.
00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:11.360
And so many studies have been done in regards to like people of color, the way that you know, their ACES, their adverse early childhood experiences reduce their living, like their lifespan.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:24.399
And then if we throw in a narcissistic mom, I mean, I I always think about what it was like and how miserable I was before I stopped talking to my mom.
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:32.240
And I know I say I our listeners are probably gonna be like tired of me saying this, but my husband really did save my life.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:36.639
He gave me the the ability to say, no, fuck you.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.240
I don't mean to do this.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.199
Like, and that is a really, really big thing.
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:56.720
And we were talking, you know, briefly about just the world kind of is in this whole like uh feeling that we've felt for a really long time in regards to narcissistic abuse.
00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:24.160
And what we're seeing is it's the conversation is becoming more popular to have it, um, that it is people understanding this trauma-informed workspace or trauma-informed therapy or trauma-informed coaching, and that's a really big thing because I think on the other side of it, which I hope is sooner rather than later, but on the other side of it, we're gonna be a like better society if we can just get through this.
00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.319
Hopefully, fingers crossed, you know, from from from lips.
00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:29.920
Right, exactly.
00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:39.440
Um, why do you believe that narcissistic abuse, especially from a parent, feels so uniquely destabilizing compared to any other form of trauma?
00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:45.600
Totally, because your parents are supposed to be like your source of safety, right?
00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:52.000
So it's like this is how you learn how to human, you know, this is where you learn about the world and all that.
00:08:52.399 --> 00:09:03.679
And so when you're learning that from someone who's like just such a psycho hose beast for lack of a better term, yeah, this okay, yes, that's a the best term, yes.
00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.960
Totally it's that's what it is, exactly.
00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:22.720
And like you just learn like that, you're awful, there's something fundamentally wrong with you, and like you know, no one's gonna ever love you or put up with your bullshit or whatever, and you know, you kind of when you're a kid, you have no choice, right?
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.120
Like you have to trust your parents, right?
00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.720
And you know, it's you're a you're vulnerable, yeah.
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:40.480
You're a sponge, you're absorbing the world, and so this is the foundation that you get in life, and then you go out into the world and you think, like, okay, like so this is what love is because you literally don't know yes, anything different.
00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:41.600
Anything different.
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:54.000
Well, and you know, the really interesting thing is you were talking about how um when you first read about this intense, you know, trauma that you experienced as a child, that you were like, whatever.
00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.960
I mean, I had the conversation yesterday with my husband.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.000
I was like, I don't remember a lot of my childhood.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:00.720
Same.
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:10.799
And I was like, as I started reading about this information, what I realized was my childhood probably was really, really messed up.
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:24.399
Like I remember, I remember my daughter being born, and that's pretty much like when my life began, because that was when I started the low contact with my mom, because it was like, I don't think that you're safe around to have my kid.
00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:24.799
Yeah.
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:29.279
And then, right, and then no contact came pretty quickly.
00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:37.279
Well, it took me a little while, but no contact in the last 11 years, and I have to say, my like my life has been better as a result of it.
00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:38.960
It'll be 11 years in April.
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:41.200
Um, thank you.
00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:50.159
Um, can you and one of the things that I really went through was, and I went through it alone because nobody was really talking about it, right?
00:10:50.399 --> 00:11:03.519
And you have right, you have idiots like um Mel Robbins and Oprah saying, Hey, and yes, I did call them idiots, saying, Hey, stop being a spoiled brat and talk to your mom.
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.799
I'm like, okay, yeah, get your head out of your ass.
00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:08.320
Yeah, about reality.
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:09.759
Right, exactly.
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:20.399
And so, why is it so common for survivors to feel that intense shame when they need that boundary from their from their parent or the uh and for us for our moms?
00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:22.879
Yeah, because of idiots in the world like that, right?
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:37.440
Because it's right, you know, it's the way I see it is like if someone is that ignorant that they can't conceive of like not everyone had the same childhood and the same mother.
00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:38.559
Right, right.
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:43.440
You're either like an absolute moron, right, or you're an abuser yourself.
00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.039
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.919
And the jury's still out, considering all the files haven't been released.
00:11:50.159 --> 00:12:03.200
So I won't make any assumptions, I won't make any accusations or anything, but I will say that, you know, um, in one of our episodes uh with a friend of mine, Victoria, we were talking about Harlow's monkeys.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:13.759
And with Harlow's monkeys, there's like this whole psychological experience, our experiment where they give a wire monkey with food and a wire monkey that has a terry cloth on it.
00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:19.360
And baby monkeys cling to that mother that has a terry cloth.
00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:29.919
And we've seen it like with Punch the Monkey, everyone's losing their mind because you know, punch is I said Punch's mom's an arc, like she's a narcissist, let you know, let him go.
00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:54.080
And but what we see is uh in a human form, yeah, is that we as human beings rather like cling to um that cold wire monkey are like our moms who like have no nurturing abilities, none of that stuff, just so that we can survive.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.399
Yeah.
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.440
So how do you see that like showing up?
00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:02.879
Um, I don't have any brothers or sisters, and I thank God every day for that because they didn't have to deal with it.
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:09.360
And I didn't have to compete against a golden child or be triangulated or any of that stuff.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:15.200
But when narcissism comes in the family system, how do you see this type of thing show up?
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:23.360
This like clinging to the person who's the nurturing one because that attachment is for survival, right?
00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.440
Well, it's like it's conditioning, right?
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.279
It's hardwired into you.
00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.799
That trust is built in between a mother and a child.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.519
So they there's literally, like I said before, there's no choice on the child's end, right?
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.039
It's literally all they know.
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:48.000
And so no matter how much logic you kind of throw at the situation as an adult, and you know, you can see it's once you like really understand narcissism, it's pretty black and white.
00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:49.360
These people are safe.
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:56.559
But when you're in that bubble and you're the one who's been abused for that long, emotion overrides logic.
00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:59.600
Yep, all every time, and that's a thing, right?
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:03.840
Because we talk about teenagers, teenagers are little emotion bubbles, right?
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:12.159
Everywhere we have we have two of them right now, and then our older kids, and so we're they're they're they're fantastic.
00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:12.720
I love them.
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:28.559
They're they crack me up, and so you know, we know that teenagers are kind of ruled by that emotion, and we uh we when we see that emotion, especially come up, and I think this is how our moms manipulated us.
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:34.399
Well, me, I know for sure, and others that are listening, is they show like that little bit of emotion.
00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.200
It's like, here, here's a tiny little breadcrumb.
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:44.320
And you're like, Well, they gave me a breadcrumb 25 years ago, they're probably gonna do it again, right?
00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.960
And that maddening is the other thing that drives you crazy, right?
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.519
You're just waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting for that.
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:57.600
And you know, we are humans, so we can hold two complex feelings at once.
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:07.600
And like for me, I always say, I love my mom because she had me, but my mom's a piece of shit because she, you know, did all the things she did to me, and that's us being a human.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:14.799
Um, can you explain maybe why survivors still crave that connection from that abusive parent?
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:19.200
Even when, like intellectually we know that it's unsafe.
00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.840
So, you know, maybe we've pulled away, we've got no contact, low contact.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.120
Why do we go back um as a result of that?
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.039
Yeah, um, in my opinion, it's repressed grief, right?
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:38.799
Because we're clinging onto this false hope that they're gonna change, they're gonna have this coming to God moment, they're gonna finally take accountability.
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.759
We got that one little breadcrumb 25 years ago.
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:42.240
Yeah.
00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:53.519
And that's, you know, that's what we cling on to because we're not, you know, we don't know, or we refuse to because it it's not safe to feel your emotions because that's what you learned your whole life.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:53.919
Right.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:16:03.360
So you're not doing the grieving that you need to do about the mother that you never had, the mother that you wish you had, the mother that you deserved, the childhood you missed out on.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:07.440
And, you know, people don't do that inner work or don't even know that you can.
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:12.960
And so it's in my opinion, it's because that inner work isn't hasn't been done fully yet.
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:19.519
And so you're still gonna cling on to that little piece of false hope because you haven't properly grieved the situation.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.279
And yeah, you do have to grieve someone who's still alive if the parent's still alive.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:34.639
Well, and that and that I think is a really important thing that you still have to grieve them because I think that you can't get to the other side of who your mom really is.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:43.600
And grief is, you know, there's a five-stage of grief that we talk about that Elizabeth Elizabeth Kubler talked about, and they're not linear.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:48.799
So you can't, you're gonna go through denial, which is like, I can't believe this is happening.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:50.720
Why is my mom such a piece of shit?
00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:55.200
You're gonna get really angry, which is why is my mom such a piece of shit?
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:56.399
This isn't fair.
00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:57.919
Um, you're gonna bargain.
00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:02.960
Well, if my mom does this, or if she does this, then I'll be it'll be okay.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.000
I can get through it.
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:09.839
Um, you're gonna go through a stent of depression and then you're gonna go through that acceptance.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.799
And they don't happen in a linear fashion, they go back and forth.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:18.240
And I think one of the things that's really important to me is to say that you're not broken if you're going through that.
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:18.640
Exactly.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:20.480
Like it's totally normal.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:21.359
Yeah, you're a human.
00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:22.960
It means you're alive.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:24.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.839
I think that's I think that's a really important thing to say.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.480
Now, you indicated earlier that it was chronic pain.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.160
I talked about like for me, stress, like shingles.
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:41.119
Like I've never, you're the first person that I've met that has gotten shingles under 50.
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.400
Well, like where, and and I remember my doctor saying, You're stressed out.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:47.839
This is because of stress.
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.680
And it wasn't because uh my mom was even, I wasn't even talking to her.
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:56.559
It was just she was leaving messages and leaving messages and leaving messages, and I was going through it.
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:05.519
So I think that narcissism, I think that any trauma really kind of reshapes your nervous system long term.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:13.519
So for us it showed up in certain ways, but how would someone kind of see that as they're like thinking about is my mom a narcissist?
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:15.759
Am I in a narcissistic relationship?
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:22.720
How can you are how can you tell us how this can really reshape your nervous system long term?
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.119
Yeah, I mean, if you're walking on eggshells, right, your nervous system's activated, right?
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:34.720
So it's you know, like if you with normal people, you're not even questioning anything.
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:35.279
Right.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:36.960
Because it's just it's normal.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.480
Like you, you're not like googling behavior, you're not right, right.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:46.720
You're not in that state of hypervigilance, you're not always questioning yourself and stuff like that, right?
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:54.400
And I tell people all the time that like if you're not a hundred percent sure if someone's a narcissist, don't worry about that.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.480
Stop looking at the signs, go inwards to your emotions.
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.200
Do you feel guilt, shame, or fear?
00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:08.079
I tell my clients all the time, these are the three musketeers, and add on to that confusion, sense of obligation.
00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:14.319
If you feel any of those things around this person, whatever you want to call them, it doesn't matter, they're bad news.
00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:14.720
Right.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:29.680
Well, and that's really good, like to help people understand that those three things, and then adding those things on, because it is like right now, there's the whole like, oh, they're anarch, oh, they're toxic, uh, like it's commonplace.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.960
And it does take a special diagnosis, which narcissists are so rarely diagnosed.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:35.359
Exactly.
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.799
They don't go to therapy.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:37.599
Yeah.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:43.200
So, but in the DSM, um, there is, you know, certain traits that they have to have.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:53.279
So even if they have narcissistic trend tendencies, or even if they're an asshole, like anything that makes you feel any of those things kind of spike.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:08.079
And and for abuse like survivors, sometimes that like we bury those things down, of course, are you know, whether or not we are gonna do certain things or feel certain things.
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.960
And I think for uh for me personally, it's always in my stomach.
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:22.720
So if I start like if we're talking about a stressful situation, if I'm in a stressful situation, my stomach always starts to hurt like instantly.
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:30.000
So there are like physiological clues for you to like uh and we've learned to ignore them.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:30.799
Like that's the thing.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.119
Right what the narcissist wanted, right?
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:34.240
That's what she wanted.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:35.519
You know, your heart rate.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.960
Oh, you're just running around.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:38.400
No, you're being a freak.
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:39.519
Like, this is too much.
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.440
Like, why are you being like this?
00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:47.920
Um, all of those things I think are really like important for you to like come back to as you're healing.
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.880
I think understanding and trusting your body.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.839
Yes, your body's always talking to you, right?
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.400
And it could be heart palpitations, it could be, you know, you start to sweat.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.640
Mine is my stomach, my is it's always my guide for me.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:12.720
How do you, when you're dealing with your your clients that either op like operate in that hypervigilance?
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.640
I my hypervigilance comes out whenever there's conflict.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.319
So like I will start cleaning the house, like cleaning the counters like one spot over and over again.
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.880
I'll focus or ruminate on things.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:36.480
Um, or if I've had like a long day of a lot of clients, because I tend to absorb a lot of things, I will like lie on the couch and fawn and I'll just doom scroll right now.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.880
Now that we have that, that's what I do.
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.880
How do you help your clients understand that these things, right?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:52.640
Whether it's the fawning, doom scrolling, their hypervigilance, the people pleasing are adaptations and not character flaws for them.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:53.440
Yeah.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:58.640
So, you know, I I always bring it back to repressed emotions because that's what it is, right?
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Like if you're fawning.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.319
You're doing that for a reason because you're repressing guilt, shame, or fear.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:04.799
Right.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:08.960
You're trying to prove yourself to the narcissist in your life.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:09.359
Why?
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:09.680
Right.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:17.039
So it's like you have to, I tell my clients, you have to get curious about your behavior, about what you're feeling.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.799
Because any of that behavior, right?
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:27.119
The fawning, the freezing, the fight or flight, the perfectionism, the overachieving, the doom scrolling, the go, go, go all the time.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:33.279
Whatever you're doing to distract whatever you're doing, it is to distract yourself from a difficult emotion.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.359
And you were taught at a young age that it's not safe to have these emotions.
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.799
So you have to repress them.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.640
So you have to keep reminding yourself that it is safe to feel my emotions.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:50.240
And when you catch yourself, even if you catch yourself the next day, it's still a win because we've been decades not even knowing any of this stuff.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:50.799
Yes.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:51.200
Right.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:57.759
So never ever beat yourself up if, like, you know, it's like, oh my God, that's what I was doing last week when I was ruminating.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:58.160
Right.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.400
Right.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.759
That was distracting me from the emotion of like fear or whatever.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:06.000
Because I was scared that, you know, my mom was going to yell at me or whatever it is.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:06.960
Yeah.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.720
At least you figured it out.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:16.640
And the more that you kind of reflect on those moments, you start recognizing which emotion was scared was repressed and why.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.799
You start creating, you start rewiring your own brain.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:21.200
Right.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:21.599
Yes.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:21.839
Right.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:27.039
Because it's like you're teaching your brain that it's I'm not going to die from feeling this emotion.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:27.599
Yes.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:28.000
Yes.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.920
And you know the consequences of not feeling that emotion, right?
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:47.839
Like it's, it's really, you kind of, you know, my I hate to put it this way, but like my clients or anyone wanting to heal, you kind of have to be in like a state of desperation to like not waste any more time on this bullshit in order for it to really stick, right?
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.400
So it's like you have to recognize you only live once, you only have so much time on this planet.
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.319
Just do the freaking work.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:07.440
You know, it's so funny because we my husband and I were just having this conversation, just like talking about, well, what can you do to like prolong your life once you realize that you've done this and that like this?
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:14.640
The longer that you can say, okay, I'm gonna protect my peace, and this is what I'm gonna do.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.119
And just and you don't, if you're not ready to look over mom, that's fine.
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:23.599
I get it, but like but be ready for the consequences of that, right?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:24.799
Exact exactly.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:31.279
And for me, I was like, uh, it is a life or death, which is why I got so mad when Oprah was like, What's the big deal?
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:32.960
I was like, fuck you, it's life or death.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:42.640
Like, you don't understand my nervous system is collapsing on top of itself, and and I and I'm thinking that everything is a danger, yeah.
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:55.680
That and I think that's the big thing because maybe you you say to yourself, okay, well, my mom's not that bad, but it is not just the abuse that she's like giving you at this moment, it is the effects of that.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.240
So everything is that is danger, right?
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:10.559
And for me now, one of the really funny things is because we moved a lot as a result of you know, my mom being bad with money, my dad being bad with money when they got a divorce.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:18.160
Anytime my husband moves furniture in the house, like like let's just say we're we're just re like changing things around, we want to change it up.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.599
I like start to panic.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:26.720
And he doesn't do it that often, but I would like I start to panic, and I I realized that that was the click for me.
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:35.440
I was like, okay, and now I just get frustrated, and so now I'm trying to get past the frustration to be like, no, this is our home, you know.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:42.799
He this is where we live, and as a result of that, we're we can make it, we can have things however we want to.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:43.039
Yeah.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:50.079
So that that I think for a lot of people who are going through this work is there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.640
You might feel like you're on fire or you're burning.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:59.039
Like I I constantly always like conflict makes me feel like I'm on fire, like I want to tamp it down.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:05.440
Um, you will get to the other side um either by no contact, that's number one, right?
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:11.440
Your mom's not around and you're like, okay, I I I didn't I'm alive, I'm good, or perimenopause.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.440
And I say that because you like, you're like, whatever, I don't care, right?
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:19.440
Um, and the the the blessing is if they happen together.
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.079
So if we can get them together, that's a huge thing.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:34.240
Um, you know, what do you believe is um some early and gentle steps that someone can take when they're just beginning this journey?
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.880
Let's say they're just starting, maybe they've gotten no contact for, you know, a month.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.960
How can they be gentle with themselves?
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:49.759
Yeah, I mean, just really kind of connecting with your inner child and recognizing that you had no shot in hell, right?
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.759
Like none of this was your fault.
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:57.759
There was nothing you needed to figure out as a kid in order to prevent anything, right?
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:07.039
Like you were duped, you were dealt a shitty hand, and you know, like it's okay to let it suck.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:08.400
Right?
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:13.279
Let yourself be upset about it, let yourself feel exactly how you feel about it.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:19.119
Maybe don't tell a lot of people because not that many people are gonna understand.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:28.480
And, you know, that's 99% of people in most cases that and that's again not a character flaw on your end, right?
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.599
No, not at all.
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:42.480
A lot of the times it's like, you know, if you're lucky enough to find, you know, a coach or like a group or like a community or something that gets it, great, but not everyone has that or has access to that.
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:45.519
And so you have to kind of become your own best friend.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:45.920
Yeah.
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:55.200
It can be a little intimidating, but at the end of the day, like one day at a time, one baby step, one emotion at a time, and just focus on now.
00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.559
Like, don't look at the whole staircase, just look at the next step.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:27:59.039
Right.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.720
Yeah, and I would say that, like, I, you know, I'll say it again.
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:08.160
My husband saved my life because he understood the abuse, like he understood the the narc abuse.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.960
The the his narc abuse was not from his mom or his dad, who I loved death.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.160
Like they are fantastic, they're amazing, chosen family.
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:17.839
I am incredibly blessed.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.920
His experience was somewhere else, but he was like, Your mom's anarch.
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:23.279
And I was like, What?
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:24.319
What are you talking about?
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.519
He's like, She's anarch, and what she's doing to you is not okay.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:29.759
I was like, Oh, okay.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.920
And that permission was a big thing, and not many people understand that.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:40.640
When I say things like, I don't talk to my entire family, people like really question that.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:41.279
Yep.
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.440
And they're like, Well, why?
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.480
I don't understand.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.160
And I'm like, My mom's a narcissist.
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.319
My, you know, my dad's out of the family is racist because I'm biracial.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:53.279
They don't understand.
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.359
They were flying monkeys for my mom.
00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:01.200
I can sit and talk to you for a really long time about it, or we can just like be friends and that's cool.
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:01.440
Yeah.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:01.759
Right.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:06.480
And they don't even bother to question like what did your family do to make you want to talk to them, right?
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:07.119
Like it's why.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.200
Well, and that's a that's always to me the the interesting thing.
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:19.839
And like, I just had this really great conversation with my daughter because we were talking about, you know, family politics, just the way families run and whatnot.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:26.880
And I said, you know, I haven't done a good job of like teaching you that because I'm like, okay, if you're gonna be on my mom's side, peace out.
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:27.440
Right.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:35.119
And so that effect does affect her, and it's something that we are learning together because we just have each other, and that's okay.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.359
And we talked about it, and she's like, okay, I totally understand it.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.559
Cause from an intellectual standpoint, she's like, Okay, I get it.
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.319
I totally understand.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:53.519
What always this was the this was the excuse that my grandparents and I love my grandfather, um, his like soul rest in peace.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:58.079
But what they he and my grandmother did was, oh, she's just an immigrant, she doesn't know.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:29:59.519
I'm like, no.
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:00.720
Yep.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.200
Everyone knows how to love their kid.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.079
Like, so like let me make this clear.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:12.240
Like, um, everyone knows how to love their kid, no matter what the language doesn't matter, no matter where they come from.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.559
That excuse is not an okay excuse.
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:17.119
Exactly.
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:18.720
It's just not, it's not okay.
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:20.400
Like, I can't express that enough.
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:29.839
So, any person who is experiencing this, and maybe their mom is an immigrant, and maybe that's totally okay.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.400
And she knows how to love.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.039
Exactly.
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:39.119
My mom was an immigrant too, and that excuse was used so much until I realized oh me nuts.
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:39.920
Doesn't matter.
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:41.359
Yeah, it doesn't matter where you're from.
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.599
Yeah, fans know how to love their kids.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.160
Yes, that's and it's so crazy to me.
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:57.359
Like it is an innate, like very basic foundation animal experience, which is why, you know, I called Punches Mom anarc because, like, who does that to their kid?
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:57.920
Yeah, right.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.000
Like, that's yeah, exactly.
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:09.039
So, why do you think like going low contact or non-contact or no contact is really such a long and painful process for people?
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:12.160
Yeah, um, because that conditioning runs deep, right?
00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:28.640
It's not until decades of your life has passed that you even realize that your mom's a narcissist or your dad or whoever, and you're undoing however old you are, years worth of that conditioning.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.759
So a lot of people, you know, they'll go back and forth.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:32.880
I did that too.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.359
Like, you know, I would break no contact a lot with my late narcissistic mother.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:37.599
Yeah.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:48.000
Um I would go low contact, try to, you know, put myself into a pretzel to kind of like tolerate her in certain situations.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:50.319
Like it it was not worth it in hindsight.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.519
Obviously, she's been dead for like six years now, and it's right, right.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:54.640
So freeing.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.000
I know, I know, I know.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:56.880
Great.
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.200
So like so terrible to say, but in this context, I know whatever.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:01.680
Right.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.279
Well, and that's actually a really good, that's a good question.
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:21.599
And I know like we hadn't discussed this, but one of the things, like for me, what I see in the group that I support is like women having um like issues because a lot of their moms are older, so maybe care for their mom or whatever.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.000
And I'm like, fuck it, I'm not caring for my mom.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:28.400
She's gonna have to figure that shit out exactly when when she goes through all this stuff.
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.200
And I hate to say that because it makes me seem like let me be very clear.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:37.200
I'm probably one of the most loving people that I know, and fuck her.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:38.880
Like, I can't express that enough.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:48.000
Absolutely, um, absolutely, and like it's it's so entitled for a parent to come with this idea that oh, I'm gonna have a kid just for elder care.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.240
Yes, yeah, exactly.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:54.480
Yeah, well, and you know, I'm gonna take care of my dad because my dad, I love him to death.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:02.160
It's just when I think about my mom, like somebody, the only reason why I know my mom hasn't died yet is because she has contact with my daughter.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:08.559
And my daughter is like, I have to say, she is 30, she's super good at like this is my boundary.
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.519
She does it with me too.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:15.119
What if I'm like asking a little bit too much about dating or anything, she's like, mom, and I'm like, okay, got it.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:15.599
Right.
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:22.880
So she she's really good at drawing that boundary for her and her grandmother.
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:30.720
Now I've seen her cross other boundaries, and then I have a conversation with her, and then she comes back usually and says, Oh my god, you're totally right.
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:38.000
Um, and I remember this one time um I was away for a business trip and my mom had watched her, and my daughter was really young.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:42.960
She was uh seven or eight, and she called me and she was in tears, and my mom was watching her.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:55.200
I was gonna be gone for like three or four days, and she's like, Mom, all grandma is doing is talking about how horrible you are and what a horrible person you are, and how much you like, what a bad mom you are.
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:59.440
Can you please, please, please call your best friend to come pick me up?
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:00.240
Please.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:01.839
And I was like, Oh my gosh.
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.279
So I called my best friend at the time who secretly also was a narcissist, but I didn't quite know that.
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.360
I called her and I was like, Hey, do you mind picking up my daughter?
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:18.239
So, you know, she's got school, but my you she knew that my mom was crazy too, probably because she was like, Oh, she's like me.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:23.280
Um, so she picked her up, and then you know, I was back in a day or so.
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.000
And my daughter still remembers that.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.440
She's like, so she has like a different shield for her.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:36.719
As soon as she starts to talk about me in any fashion, she's like, Nope, that's you and my mom.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:41.599
If you want a relationship with me, we talk about me stuff, but I'm not talking about my mom.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.039
And it's it's I'm actually like really impressed.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:52.000
And I'm gonna tell her to listen to this podcast so that she could hear me talk about and um hear how I gassed her up and how awesome she is.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:57.519
Because that's a really like it's a tool that I never learned and she's learned on her own.
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:08.960
Um, how do you support your clients through the grief that often comes through accepting that their mother is a piece of shit and I'm just gonna go there and say it and who she's never gonna be.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:09.679
Yeah.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.760
Um, you know, a lot of it is just telling them what they need to hear.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.519
Like I'm sure you've observed in my content, I do not sugarcoat things.
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.280
So no, I love it and I love it.
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:19.920
I love it.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:22.480
So people come to me for that.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:23.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.079
Don't work with me if you want things sugarcoated.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:44.800
Yeah, but you know, basically like just the hard truths and radical acceptance of those hard truths, and just making space for how you feel about it and letting yourself feel exactly how you feel, like letting it suck, letting it just be like such bullshit that this is the hand you were dealt.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:46.400
Yeah, yeah, it is bullshit.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:56.559
Yeah, right, because no one's gonna give you that permission to let it suck because we live in a society of toxic positivity of like, oh, just be positive or stop being a brat and call your mother.
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:58.400
Fuck you guys, fuck you guys.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:35:59.679
That's all I have to say about that.
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:09.280
You know, it's so funny because I do um well in our other work, my husband and I own a consulting firm and we do a lot of work with like trauma-informed organizations.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:18.559
And one of the things we talk about is okay, like I understand that you have learned that you can just shit all over everyone.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:20.000
Like, that's what I'm gonna do.
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:21.760
I'm just gonna shit all over everyone.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.239
And that's not this organization.
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:32.480
And I had a question from someone say, and they said, Well, do we place intent forward or do we place impact forward?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.639
And I was like, it's impact.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:39.519
Like you the impact of your word is huge, and we see that all the time.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:44.320
We see it in art, we see the what stays with us is the impact.
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:52.639
If I if an artist says, My intent for this art is for you to feel this way, you're like, eh, fuck you, that's not the way that I feel.
00:36:52.880 --> 00:37:01.920
The impact is this, and I think that's a really, really important thing because oftentimes our moms will say, Well, that's not what I intended when I called you fat.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.880
I was like, um, hello, impact, right?
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.599
You know, that's that I think is really important.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:18.880
And if anyone takes that away, is for you to be able to say, okay, I intend to do this and let me think about what my impact is gonna be.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.719
And that's not an easy thing.
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:25.280
Like, by at the end of the day, if you're thinking like that, you're gonna be exhausted.
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:26.079
And that's good.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:30.320
That's a good exhaustion to think about what your impact is gonna bring.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.840
Like, I'm sure there's a thousand people that I want to be like, hey, don't drive like an asshole.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:43.039
Like, I could be screaming that out the window, but if I smile as they drive by, that impact's different, and maybe they might change their mind.
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.280
That I think that's really big.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:53.199
Um, what do you say to people who feel selfish are are being told that they're selfish for choosing that distance?
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.320
So that is that's not your selfishness to feel, right?
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:08.480
Your narcissistic parent was the selfish one choosing to bring you in this world or adopt you or however they acquired you wasn't had no choice in the matter.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:09.280
Right, right.
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.719
Right to you don't choose to come to this shithole.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:14.639
That one, yeah, that one.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:15.440
I want that one.
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:16.000
Exactly.
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:17.280
I want that to be my mom.
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.639
It does not work that way.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:19.440
Yeah, exactly.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:35.599
They were selfish for however they acquired you and choosing to abuse you, choosing to have a role for you, choosing to have you as the extension of themselves, as a little mini-me, as like a little puppet that they could manipulate.
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:36.000
Right.
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:49.519
And so instead of you know, them reflecting on that like a normal person would, they projected that selfishness onto you and made you believe that anything you do for yourself, including distancing yourself, is is selfish.
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:59.519
And at the end of the day, what people have to understand is adults are allowed to decide which other adults they want to associate with or not, relatives included.
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:00.079
Right.
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:02.079
We have agency, we have agency.
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:02.880
That's the big thing.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:06.480
And no one has no one's entitled to accessing you.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.559
No, and you know, that's a really big thing.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.760
I think that you know, um, I don't know if you have kids.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:20.960
I I often I love my four kids, I love them to death, and you know, it's just so expensive and all those things, right?
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:27.280
But I know for me, I could have chosen to go down the same path.
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:29.679
I could have hurt because I hurt.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:40.800
And I I have confessed that I definitely was a yeller with my daughter when I when she was younger, but for me, that was just immaturity.
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:46.000
I didn't know how to express those feelings with a frustration or whatever was going on.
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.960
And once I did, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that I was yelling at you all the time.
00:39:51.119 --> 00:40:17.440
And we've had real good discussions about that because you know, the process to be able to process information, and quite frankly, I think that my mom probably created these bombs in my head to then create another child that was gonna be exactly like that and then be subservient to her and the the whole thing, which thank goodness that she's not, but I think that you know it's never too late to change your mind.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:18.239
That's number one.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:23.599
I always say that, I say that all the time, and it's never too late to say I'm sorry, exactly.
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:32.480
And I'm gonna tell our listener the hint when you say I'm sorry, it's just I'm sorry, exactly, nothing else, exactly.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:36.400
Narcissists continue it on with body, blah blah blah blah blah.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:40.719
If they if you can even write I'm sorry out of them, yeah yes, exactly.
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:53.039
And anybody who says more than I'm sorry is not saying I'm sorry because they hurt you, they're saying I'm sorry because they feel some kind of way because they hurt you, exactly.
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.760
And and that's not the way to do it, you know.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:09.039
How do you think that healing from a narcissistic abusive relationship can change the way people show up in relationships or at work or like in parenting, like we were just talking about?
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:12.239
Yeah, I mean, it it changes you for the better, right?
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:17.840
Like you're not as trusting of people, which can sound like a bad thing, but no one's entitled to your trust.
00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:19.280
It's something that's earned, right?
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:25.119
And I feel like a lot of us that were raised by narcissists, we just willy-nilly here you go to the wind.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:25.440
Yeah.
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.639
You know, I trust you with everything.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.960
And it backfires.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:43.039
So you know, you you show up with more discernment and more presence, and you're, you know, you're not like hoping, you know, oh my god, we're gonna be best friends or whatever.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:50.639
It's more sort of like in that observer mode and right, you know, like in the less of a codependent kind of way, if that makes sense.
00:41:51.119 --> 00:42:10.719
Absolutely makes sense, you know, and one of the things that that I've really come to terms with, and you've probably seen a lot of your clients come to terms with, I've I've seen our our clients do the same, is what do you think becomes possible when someone truly internalizes that it wasn't their fault?
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:13.280
Anything, yeah.
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:33.360
Yeah, yeah, you can, you know, like they just get so many opportunities in life because you're not gonna feel like you don't deserve anything good in life, you're gonna go for better opportunities, you're not gonna be wasting time with people that are just draining you and sabotaging any success that you could have.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.960
That and that's a huge thing.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:46.480
I think a lot for a lot of narcissistic abuse survivors, no matter where they are in their surviving or their healing, there is so much time that's wasted.
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:48.159
Yes, because of that.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:49.920
And that was what your mom wanted.
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.360
Like, I can't express that.
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:58.400
That's because she wanted you to come back to her, she wanted you to waste time, she wanted you to suffer, whatever it was, she wanted that.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:02.639
And that's the that I think is the really interesting thing.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:13.840
Um as we like wrap up and you think about your the survivors that you've helped, or you think about people who you might be able to help.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.639
Um, what gives you the most hope when working with any survivors?
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.400
The fact that they even reach out for help to begin with, right?
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:28.320
Like if you're not open to the help to begin with, there's no hope, right?
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:40.800
But if you're actually showing up for yourself, that tells me that there's at least a little bit of you that loves yourself enough to know that like something's not right here, and I need to do something for myself.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:49.440
And that's the biggest gift you can give yourself is just getting the right support from you know whoever the right person is, not necessarily me in every case, right?
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:57.760
I'm not for everyone, but like just getting that support is a huge gift to yourself and learning how to be your own healer basically.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.840
Because you have all the answers at the end of the day.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:11.599
Well, and that's one of the things I I find really interesting about the healing community is like just like a therapist or a doctor or whatever, you're gonna need someone who you feel comfortable with.
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.840
That I'm not always gonna be that person.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.440
And that, and I'm okay with that.
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:16.880
Like I don't get hurt about that.
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:24.639
Like I'm like, okay, here's like 10 other people that we've either had on the podcast or that I'm you know connected to in Instagram.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:25.920
Go to someone there.
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:36.639
That like all I care about is that healing part because ultimately, like if you're healing, then you know the world, every healing person, the world becomes a better place.
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:37.440
Exactly.
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:44.960
What's one thing that you want people to remember or think about when they think about like this podcast or what we are saying?
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.400
Like, what's one piece of information that you want them to leave with?
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:50.239
It wasn't your fault.
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:51.920
Right?
00:44:52.079 --> 00:45:02.960
You had no choice, you were forced into this situation, you had no idea what was going on, and the fact that you found out, right?
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:08.719
And like I don't care how old you are, you figured it out in this lifetime, right?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.320
And that's all that matters.
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:11.679
That's huge.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:24.000
Um, that I think is a really beautiful thing, and I think for any person who's experiencing narcissistic abuse, whether it's familial or romantic or whatever it is, it was it isn't your fault.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:26.159
And it doesn't matter when you find out.
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:34.880
If you find out, you know, there's one person who I had on the podcast who's a friend, she 33 years into marriage, she figured it out.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.039
Yeah, and she was like, All right, peace out.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:38.559
Yeah, she figured it out.
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:44.480
You know, we're gonna put in the show notes how to get a hold of you, how to connect with you on Instagram, how to get your work.
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:50.480
But I just want to say thank you for being my, you know, one of my sisters in healing and breaking the cycle.
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.880
I can't thank you enough for being here.
00:45:53.199 --> 00:46:00.480
I've absolutely loved getting to know you and would love to have you back on because narcissism is never gonna end.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.719
So we're we have tons of stuff to talk about.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:03.360
So thank you.
00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:04.639
I'd love to come back.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:05.920
Thanks so much for having me.
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:12.960
Yeah, thank you so much for being here with me today and for naming things so clearly in our community.
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:19.360
The way you talk about rebuilding self-trust and showing up with discernment, it really matters more than you know.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:26.320
If this episode resonated with you, make sure that you follow the podcast so you don't miss what's coming up next.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:31.519
And if you know someone who is still trying to make sense of what they went through, send this to them.
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.559
It might be the thing that finally helps them.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:41.039
Thank you for listening to the Beyond Mommy Daris podcast.
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.360
You're not broken, you adapted.
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:48.960
Healing from a narcissistic mother is real, possible, and you never have to do it with shame.
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:55.119
I'm your host, Nalani Pearl Hernandez, and until next time, take gentle care of yourself.
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.800
Your skin is a part of your nervous system, and taking care of it is essential to overall balance.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:09.519
Our products are specifically formulated to nourish your skin and bring you closer to homeostasis with every use.
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