Two Legends, One Table: Tom Richter & Sother Teague on their legacy Behind the Bar (Part 1)

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Hi, I'm a turn and this.
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And I'm Nuri Robit.
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And this is Bar Talking Talking Bar.
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You're accessed to the heartbeat of New York City's bar and hospitality team.
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Host this from the City of the Nervous Leaf.
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We sit down with bartenders, brands and ambassadors, hospitality pros and cocktail lovers.
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Whether it's the art of bartending, the hustle behind hospitality, or the wildest bartels, expect raw conversations and listen to the people or your favorite cocktails and keep the NILA alive.
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If you love bars, it's great and the stories that bring them to life.
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New episodes weekly.
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Welcome back to another episode of the Favorite Podcast.
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Today we want to acknowledge everyone who has been listening to our show week by week.
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But without further ado, Nori, why don't you help me introduce our guest today?
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Of course.
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Of course.
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We're very excited.
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Obviously, I'm uh I'm a very fun fan of you, so I'm like a groupie.
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Everywhere we go.
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But whoever doesn't is not watching it and journalism and every platform, we have two ladies, two audience, all audience.
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We have some rector here.
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Thank you so much for coming.
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Annaly, it is an honor for us, uh, for you taking time of your day, you know, uh being here with us and talk to other audience uh about yourself, your story, uh, your history, uh what you have been doing throughout the years.
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Uh we've known you because we've seen you in in the industry for a while, and you know, uh like us, I know that there are a lot of people looking up to you in in so many ways, uh respectfully.
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Uh but yeah, without further ado, would you wanna start by asking them a question?
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Of course.
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But you know, the the the reason I'm and we are inviting you to guys is because definitely we know that you're friends.
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Yeah.
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You're part of this industry and uh I peers, and obviously you have a lot of information that many new like bartenders they don't have.
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And obviously, um this industry has been like for me one of the best industries that I've been working in.
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And New York City is one of the best places to to be part of it.
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And you're part of it.
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And what is like the most, you know, besides being honor and everything, it I think it's educational, it's uh inspirational, and also it has a purpose that some people uh after the pandemic lose a little bit of the touch of like what is New York City hospitality, especially bartending.
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Uh but before that, we're gonna know a little bit about you guys, like where you're coming from, how well I think you know, um there's probably I'm glad you have us both on together.
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We are pals, but there's probably you know too much show for just one of us, right?
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I I don't think we have enough to say separately.
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But together we'll we'll hopefully round those shows.
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I can challenge that, but yeah.
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I mean, uh, you know, I don't want to I don't know how far back in my CV you want to go.
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Um my dad owned a bar when I was a kid.
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I grew up on the beach in Florida.
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Um I would hustle you know beers from the cooler out to the bar for quarters that I would then turn around and put in the you know the video games that he had at the bar.
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So he got the money right back.
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Great business model.
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Um I left my hometown in Florida at age 17.
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I've lived in 12 states before arriving here in New York, and all of them I was a cook and a chef, and I taught at a culinary school.
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Um I worked on the show Goodies with Alton Brown as the uh you know um research and technical chef there.
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Uh but when I got to New York, I had never been here.
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I rented an apartment over the phone.
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Um, you know, I and when I got to my so I didn't even know if my apartment was in the right neighborhood.
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Uh luckily I negotiated a six-month lease with this woman.
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She was very nice.
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Um and I grabbed a Zagat guide.
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Ooh, and the and the MTA map.
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And I thought, well, I'm just gonna look through this guide and see places that have like a high enough, you know, uh average price point and maybe that are busy, and I'm gonna apply as a waiter while I figure out if I'm living in the right apartment, while I look for a job as a chef, while I get, you know, get my ground all.
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So I work for six months with flexible income, flexible time, and that will like be my establishment here in New York.
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So I put dots on the map of all these restaurants, and I thought, well, I'll go tomorrow to the furthest one away and I will apply my way back home.
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Either way, I gotta come back home, right?
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The very first one that I walked into on 77th and 3rd, the Atlantic Grill doesn't exist anymore.
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Uh the maid or D there was a guy named Alex Cochone.
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Alex had worked at Herb Saint in New Orleans when I was the sous chef for Susan Spicer at Bayona.
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So he recognized my name and he said, um, I told him that.
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I didn't know you were sous chef at Bayona.
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That's fucking awesome, man.
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Wow.
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Uh so I told him um, yeah, and at Cobalt, right, which was Susan's signature restaurant, which is now Luke.
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Um but so he recognized my name and he said, um, he literally leaned over the podium and he said, I don't think you don't want to cook here, do you?
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And I was like, no, no, no, no.
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You know, it's like, listen, this was a great place.
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They had quality food, but they weren't, you know, they weren't doing anything pushing boundaries.
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You know, they were like, What do you think if we put peanut butter with jelly?
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I don't know, man.
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What if we put milk on the side?
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Salt.
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You know, they're like they, you know, their I think their most like known dish was uh uh wasabi crusted nori wrapped tuna.
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Uh, you know, like it was and there was no like surprises, everything goes together.
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My brother were at Atlantic for like like six years, but it was like back into the thousands, I think so.
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But I was always like impressed of like, I don't know how was before that, but the anime year it was with like Well Neil Bodenheimer worked there too.
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That's where I met Neil.
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Oh, okay, who now owns, of course, the cure and is the he's uh uh uh you know one of the foundation members at the Tales of the Cocktail.
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But um yeah, uh so he leans over and he goes, You don't want to work in a kitchen here, dude.
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And I was like, No, I want to be a waiter for six months where I can you know do what I said.
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I'll I won't I won't screw you over.
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Six months is a fair term for a waiter.
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I'll you know, I'll be better than your average waiter on day one.
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Like I'll I'll do this thing.
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And he said, Can you bartend?
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I said, Alex, I've spent my entire career making beautiful food and putting it on a plate.
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I think I can make a beautiful drink and put it on a glass.
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And he said, Wear all black, show up tomorrow.
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I told him I'd do it for six months.
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I was behind that bar for three years.
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Wow.
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And that changed the course of my life.
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And you now it's if you're out there, you change my life.
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Thank you, Alex.
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Wow, and then that's what one of the things that we always say, you know, we always have to be thankful of people who's like who gave us the opportunity without even thinking about it.
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You know, like you look at like naid now and you're like, wow, this person gave me, gave, gave me this chance or gave me actually the job, right?
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But you know, it's a turning point for us.
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And and what about you, Tom?
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Yeah.
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Break out your stone table.
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Well, it's a little more convoluted.
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Like you at least southern, you're much more focused in this side.
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And when were you at Beyond It?
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What year?
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Uh I left New Orleans in 90, I want to say seven.
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Okay, because I ate there in 2000.
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I just wanted to know that you'd have been there.
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That's what I'm looking for.
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Um I grew up on a on a small farm, a hobby farm in in Minnesota.
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My father was a chiropractor.
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And uh hobby farms are only 25 acres because you just you know have horses and sheep and stuff like that.
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You don't live on it, you know.
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Um went to college at the University of Minnesota.
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Um I got accepted at MIT, but I wanted to go to the U of M because I wanted to be in the marching band.
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What instrument do you play?
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Uh I'm a sax player.
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In the marching band?
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Yeah.
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So my first year and a half I was in the saxophone line, but I was a serious musician at that time, so I didn't want to ruin my ambassador, so I got into the drum line and I played cymbals.
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All right.
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And that was probably the best, most important experience of my life was being in the marching band.
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Wow.
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I I wasn't abandoned too when I was younger.
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It was it was just, yeah, I'm probably gonna tear up when I'm talking about it.
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But it's like it it had it was, you know, when you're marching around on the field, you're a little dot that it's so important you're in the right place because you're one part of one big hunk of stuff.
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And when you're out of place, it doesn't look right.
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And we were doing like crazy uh musical uh adaptations of various songs.
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Like we had this amazing band director, his name is O'Neill Sanford, and he did a lot of Earth, Wind, and Fire.
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Amazing.
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So to this day, when in the Stone plays, I know my cymbal part, yeah, and I always cry.
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Anyway, so I was at the University of Minnesota, and my my my uh my saxophone uh rank lieutenant was in the theater department, and he urged me to audition for a show, and I did, and that was the winter musical of No No Nanette, and I got into the ensemble, and from that point forward I was always in a show.
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And I kept changing my degree from aerospace engineering to pre-med to music, then to theater.
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And uh so that's what I did.
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Then I started moving around the country.
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I got I supported myself as an actor for the first half of my life, and I started living all over the place.
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Uh and I would always work in restaurants or bars to supplement.
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Uh found myself in California at the Zuni Cafe in 1987.
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Eighty-seven to the beginning of '89.
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The year I graduated high school.
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I wasn't entering to elementary school.
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Okay.
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And we were making Zuni margarita, is still, whenever I put uh uh a margarita on menu, it is the one because we would just cut a big bowl of limes and have them right there for us.
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We would squeeze half a lime into the drink, one ounce of cointreau, two ounces of uh blanco uh tequila, and that was it.
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Half salt at the rim.
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You never asked somebody if they wanted salt or not.
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Um to this day, that is my go-to margarita.
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Um foundational in your career and in your tastes.
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Absolutely, because uh listen, I appreciate the ones that have added sweetener to them.
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Your initial uh experience is like, oh my god, that's really great.
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If it's a little drier, it's like, oh, that's really good.
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I want another one.
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Oh, yeah, I want another one.
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That's sweeter margaritas are delicious, but the repeat order is lower because the the sugar starts making you feel anyway.
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So then uh I moved, uh I lived in Aspen for a minute and I moved to Chicago and did theater and worked in nightclubs and you know, got in, you know, it's like I always say to young bar folk, work in a shitty bar before you do this snotty stuff that we do.
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Because it really if you do this first, it's hard to go backwards.
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And as long as you keep progressing.
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And luckily I kept doing that because I was in theater, so I was always working bars and restaurants on the side.
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And worked in nightclubs and shit in Chicago, um, moved to New York, uh, got into the National Tour of Greece, uh Broadway tour, uh, did that for a year.
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I was sunny.
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I was sunny and like Deborah Gibson is a still a good friend.
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Deb, whenever I hear your songs on the radio, I tear up.
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I love hearing your voice, just saying.
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Um, you know, I worked with Lucy Lawless, Xena Warrior Princess.
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Of course, yeah.
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Wow.
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Mackenzie Phillips.
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I mean, Sally Struthers is one of the sweetest people on the planet.
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She's days with us when she's in town.
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Amazing.
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My wife is also still a working actor and has worked with Sally a number of times, so it's been great.
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Um, got to New York, uh, was in and out of theater, then I was let's see, what happened?
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I was working at a restaurant in New Jersey, David Drake's, one of the best restaurants I've ever worked at in my life.
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And he was opening another place in New Brunswick, and there is where I developed a tonic syrup that people kept saying, you should bottle this stuff.
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It's great.
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I'm like, yeah, it's too much work.
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And a year later, I incorporated and started making and bottling Tomer's tonic.
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And Freeman's was my first.
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I I Lynette Morrero is a dear friend of mine.
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She's like a sister.
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We had a life in the theater together before either of us run this.
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Right.
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So she and I were doing uh we met first on a thing called But I'm a Cheerleader, which is a brilliant musical.
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Someday we'll come to Broadway.
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And she was like, Tom, she goes, I've got this friend you should take your resume to.
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You'd really good at his new place.
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His name is Sasha.
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I'm like, cool.
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And it was Sasha Petroski.
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He was working at the Lambs Club at one time, and I came in with an envelope with my resume.
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Lamb's Club?
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Well, it's on a Rowler.
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Knowing what I know now, he didn't take resumes.
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He only took recommendations.
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So I'm sure he just threw that away.
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But he said, I don't have something right now, but I'm going to be opening something soon.
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And that was the John Doy Oyster Bar at the Ace Hotel.
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So I worked with Sasha there.
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Really had it was life-changing.
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It was it was like, oh, why didn't I think of that?
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That's kind of what that training is like.
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Met uh Dan Greenbaum and then went to the Beagle with him and ran the Beagle for three years.
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RIP the Beagle.
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Love that place.
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It was great.
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And it's funny because I I I work at the John Dory.
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And uh one of the reasons I I went and worked there is because of Sasha.
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And I think I'm I what what year was you were where you work?
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Uh opening for the first year.
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So we opened it in the first year.
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So I was uh we opened Gosh in 2010 and then we opened the Beagle in 2011.
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No, I I got there in like around 2015.
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It was summerish.
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And because the Moor opened in March.
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May I think it was like Oh, 2011?
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That's when the Moor opened.
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I want to say May, maybe.
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Yeah.
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So two months later.
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Yeah.
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Crazy.
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Wow.
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And it I mean now that they mentioned that was it.
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Wow.
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No, but now that they mentioned those places are iconic.
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Yep, and the Beagle happened, and then the Beagle lived for three years, and then Megan Dorman wanted me to help her open the the uh the Deer Irving.
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It got postponed.
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So in that meantime, I was uh subbing at Ataboyan milk and honey and enough to work all the time.
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And um Julie Reiner opened the bar 54 on the top of Hyatt Times Square and hired me to be her opening head bartender.
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So I did that for might have been two months and hotel nope.
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Uh and then we opened Deer Irving, and then I worked there for three years.
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Cut off my thumb.
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Dear Irving?
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I was making muddlers as gifts for my team.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.840
Oh in your house, because I I hear that story.
00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.519
Yeah, that's some space.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.360
It was free handing on a table saw.
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:03.679
I popped it out of my hand and I touched the blade and I went, Oh my god, that's gonna be bad.
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.000
And was looking at the back of my thumbnail from this side.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:07.120
I'm like, fuck.
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:21.039
Anyway, so I stopped bartending for a little while, but Megan Angel, who is like another sister to me, uh had me managing or doring all of her other properties.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:27.679
So it was the two Rains Law Rooms, uh Dear Irving, and then um we had the Bennett.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.360
So I was working nonstop.
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:34.159
And then I got back to work, was missing about an inch on this hand.
00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.840
I could still, you know, do things, but I would drop a little bit every once in a while.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.000
I'm like, damn, it was just uncomfortable.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:48.480
And that's when a friend of mine was working for a distributor and he said, Hey Tom, we need somebody who's really educated on spirits, very well connected, and could manage a spirits portfolio.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.200
And I'm like, sure, I'd be interested.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:17:05.279
So I took over uh the spirits portfolio management job for David Bowler uh Wine and Spirits, did that for two and a half years, and then moved to another small company that is very similar to what I do now.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:11.039
Uh we have had a spirits portfolio called the Kraft Spirits Cooperative, they're based out of California.
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:20.640
Um they had they are the people who owned Kapuro Pisco and the distiller of Kapuro Pisco, and I had that in my portfolio.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.400
And when I left Bowler, she was like, We're gonna come with you wherever you go.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:25.440
I'm like, cool.
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:32.720
And they called me back two days later and just said, Hey, we'd like to open an office in New York if you do it.
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:34.160
So I'm like, okay.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.000
So I was their office in New York.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:44.880
Uh all of my product we I got to New York on uh March 10th, 2020.
00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:47.920
Yep.
00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.720
Five days uh prior to the end.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:59.599
But hey, I helped them uh expand their uh footprint by four times during the pandemic.
00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:11.920
And then uh I work for Gallo Now in the same type of thing, but at a much bigger um uh scope, and they poached me from this other company, and uh so I work for Gallo Now doing spirits.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.400
Do you enjoy doing that stuff or do you miss bartending?
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.200
Uh I miss bartending for the first four hours.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:20.319
And that's true.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:21.519
I mean, that's where that came from.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:22.559
You know, that's where that came from.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:32.079
It's like so I've done a I've done a pop-up at uh a bar recently uh that we called it the first four hours with Tom Richter because yeah, I'll work from five to nine.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:32.319
Yeah.
00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:32.960
No problem.
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.160
And then and then uh I'll do something else.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:37.119
Sit at sit at the moment.
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:38.319
No, that that doesn't drink.
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.279
Or I'll go home.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:40.880
I don't, you know, whatever.
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.799
Uh so that's like you know, probably five.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:55.519
I mean, it's you're like I don't know, 20 more than you know, it's your experience, but it's so impressive because obviously we're gonna have more questions, but you can edit some of that out of there too.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:56.400
No, no, no.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:58.799
No, you want to know at all.
00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:17.119
That's that's so cool because working, uh I mean moving from Minnesota to and going on these trips, you know, like uh performing and getting gigs and jobs, and then moving to New York, the experience going coming to New York is very different from what I've heard from other folks and myself as well.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:18.960
Uh, because it's very different.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.640
The pace of life in other states is a lot slower.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.920
Uh the drive is very strong as well, but it's so different.
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:30.559
Because comparing New York, it's like it's fast-paced, people's moving, you have a lot of options.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:38.319
Uh on every corner, uh bars, restaurants, cafes, uh anything you really want, or or feel like having that day.
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:43.359
It doesn't necessarily have to be a cocktail, but like food-wise, there's so many options.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:45.519
Uh, and moving to New York, that's the thing, right?
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.200
Like, if you get a job at a restaurant or a bar, uh it could be also a different kind of restaurant.
00:19:51.359 --> 00:20:00.160
You're mentioning uh different kind of bar where you start, uh and then move move building your way up is eventually, you know.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.680
Yeah, it it's so different from our my perspective as well, you know.
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:05.039
And what about you?
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.119
Uh uh like you said you're coming from Florida and then working here.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.279
Florida is such a distinct memory, though.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:12.559
I I I hated it there.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.519
And so I left there literally four days after I graduated high school.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.119
I've never been back to my hometown, not once.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.160
I hated it.
00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:23.200
Um but you know, my career behind the bar started in New York in earnest.
00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:37.039
But it because I had had such a career as a chef, you know, teaching at a culinary school, uh being uh on the Goodyeats program on the food network, um, you know, all my work in the back of the house and in all these places, I was drawn to restaurant bartending.
00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.079
So that first place I stood behind the bar for three years, that was the Atlantic Grill.
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.400
But then I worked for John Frazier at Dovetail.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:47.119
You know, we we got a three-star rating from uh Frank Bruni in the first three months we were open.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.160
Which was around 2008, right?
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:51.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.279
Because I work at 8081.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.160
Yeah in Dovetail when they opened, it was like the competitions.
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:56.480
Yeah.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:57.039
I find that.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:57.839
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:02.079
Yeah, I remember that because I work at a lot of places.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:03.279
Yeah, me too.
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.440
I worked at Dovetail, then I worked for uh Grey Coons at Cafe Uh Gray and Grays.
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:13.200
Um, and then I also, like inadvertently, frankly, was doing what Tom was talking about.
00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:19.279
I also worked at like some, you know, pretty uh lower tier divy kind of bars, some that don't even exist anymore.
00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.680
I pulled some shifts at uh Bush at Country Club, I um pulled some shifts at Dram.
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.480
Not that that was a lower one, but like Dram was red.
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:26.880
Yeah.
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.079
Um, you know, the occasional shift over to extra fancy or whatever.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:34.000
Then I got a job uh at a restaurant called Rye, which was almost like Oh, that was great.
00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.440
The one that uh in in Brooklyn?
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:35.839
Uh-huh.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:36.559
Oh, I love that place.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.079
I remember that bar was amazing, right?
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.880
Yeah, that was great.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.839
22 feet of solid mahogany built in the the uh late 1800s by the Brunswick Company.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.839
You guys were using my tonic for a while there.
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.480
You were, yeah, yeah.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.839
I was uh an early adopter of tonics.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:50.559
Yeah.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.519
Uh yeah, you would come in and hand me there.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:08.880
Um that's how we how we Um well I think also my my perspective as a former chef, or whatever, you're still like if you're always a chef or whatever, but um, you know, I you even said it to me.
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:13.279
I can remember early days, you'd be like, Well, your your customer base is gonna have questions about why it's brown.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:14.720
And I was like, I don't give a shit.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.119
I can explain to them it's brown because it's that's how it should be.
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.200
What you're used to your whole life is what it shouldn't be.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:19.599
Right.
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:20.000
Right?
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:24.559
Like we can see that this is more sort of like how it how it's naturally made.
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:33.440
Um and then uh you know, a few different weird things happened and Amori Margot became a reality in 2011, uh same time as the Beagle, right, in March of 2011.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.000
And and how did this uh uh idea came together?
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:37.359
It was on the U.S.
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.839
No, no, so there was uh there were four of us in the early days.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:50.960
It was Avery and Janet Glasser, who the owner who were the owners of Bitterman's Bitters, a guy named Meyer Savaro, who's uh a lawyer and a cocktail nerd, uh, and myself, uh, and we it was a pop-up.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.319
You know, the space, if you've been, it's 240 square feet.
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:54.720
It's tiny.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:55.200
Tiny.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:56.079
Yeah, we've been.
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:56.559
Yeah.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:01.759
Um and uh it was the it was the dry storage of the bar and restaurant that's out front.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:03.119
It just happened to have its own entry.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.400
Which was it was uh like a Latin place, right?
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.400
It was called El Cobre, way back in the beginning.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:08.880
Yeah.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:14.799
It's been El Cobre, then it became Jim Palace, then it became uh uh um forgetting one.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:15.519
Mother of Pearl.
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:16.079
Mother of Pearl.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.039
Oh, Mother of Pearl, right?
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:17.440
I remember that.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:20.559
Of course, the Mori Margot moved in there for a while and now it's Soda Club.
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:29.039
Um, but so uh, you know, uh there was this tiny little room that had their dry storage, and and we were there for I can't remember exactly what, but we saw the basement.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:30.000
The basement was huge.
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:36.480
And we're like, well, why don't you guys put all your flour and rice and everything down that basement and we'll pay you for this room every month?
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.759
Uh but for six months, we said we'd do it for six months as a pop-up.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.319
And uh after six months, they said, Hey, it went really well.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:43.519
You want to go another three months?
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:44.880
And said, Okay, sure.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:47.279
And then after nine months, they said, Do you want to go another three months?
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.559
And we said, All right, but then like Avery and Janet had to leave because they started making potables and you can't make a potable and owner bar.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.160
My Earl was like, I gotta go back to being a lawyer, so now I'm hiring new people.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:02.480
Um, and then at the year mark, like now partner, Robbie, he said, uh, it's been a year.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:03.440
Do you want to go another three months?
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:05.119
And I was like, Look, man, you understand this is a pop-up.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:05.920
I have a full-time job.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.240
I've been the head bar tender at Rye, you know.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.880
Uh meaning I haven't had a day off in a year.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:13.039
On my nights off, I'm here.
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:20.400
Okay, and he I said, if we're gonna do this, we're we need to go full into it and do it, or it's over and I'm going back to my job.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:21.759
And he said, quit your job.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:23.759
It sounds like it like a breakup.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.720
Well, he said, No, no, yeah, totally.
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.039
Like, you know, you know, it's like let's commit or not commit.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:29.359
Yeah.
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:35.920
I mean, I think as a partner, you have it's better to say it right in there before you move, take the next step, especially if you commit into the next three years.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:37.759
You commit already committed to a year.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:38.079
Right.
00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.680
And then the next three years is gonna be uh a hard one.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:46.480
Because not because of the time of the place or the people, it's just because they're making the decision.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:55.839
And I'm sure uh getting permits and getting everything that you need to get, uh, it requires more time of do you already put in seven days, yeah, a week in there.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:56.160
Yeah.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:58.960
Yeah, I mean the the uh we learned a valuable lesson there though.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.039
And you know, my company now is called Overthrow Hospitality.
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.960
We have several locations, uh, all in the East Village, we're opening one in Colorado soon.
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:20.880
Um, but uh the lesson that we learned is if you have the means and wherewithal, and I think there's now kind of a common knowledge, but like it was not common in 2011 to say, try your your concept out, but don't commit to any timeline.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:22.000
Be a pop-up.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:23.599
And if it succeeds, stick with it.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:28.799
And it wasn't a pop-up, but if it doesn't succeed, you already have the space, flip it into something else, and that's a pop-up.
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.640
So for instance, you just asked what was out front, it was El Cobra, and I listed what's been there.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:40.480
But then upstairs, which we also have control over, was when I started there, it was Cienfuegos, then it was honey, then it was Honeybees, then it was Cafe de Lonfer, and now it's Avant Garden.
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:46.319
Amori Margo itself, because of the pandemic, became Amor, spritz by a more uh Logia by Amor.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:51.519
So the building itself, in the 15 years we've been there, has had 13 different concepts.
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:51.920
Wow.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:52.160
Right.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.079
With Amor being there almost the entire time.
00:25:54.720 --> 00:26:06.640
But but you know, I think like unplanned, obviously, but moving into a thing and being nimble and being flexible is powerfully important to long-term success.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:07.119
Yeah.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:13.599
Um so when was the time that you were like like knowing each other?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.559
Um it was it came very shortly after the Beagle.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:19.359
Well, like I said, I think that we knew each other from Rye.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:20.799
And tan gently, like, yeah.
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.960
Oh, he's this is this this is this dude who has the tonic.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:23.359
Yeah.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.519
And then I think it was the Beagle where I was the Beagle.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.160
He's he's now over here at the Beagle in my neighborhood because the Beagle is just a few blocks from Mori Margot.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:41.039
And we were starting to establish, I mean, those two bars all of a sudden, you know, it was it was that time when you we were at the best bars in the best city to be in those bars at that best time.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.480
That was that little window that was just amazing.
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.559
And we knew everybody in the cocktail bars because there were maybe ten.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:49.200
Yeah.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:57.680
But I would also say, like, it was pretty cool that the Beagle had this real uh focus on sherry and fortified wines.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.640
And Amore, of course, is very focused on Amaro.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.160
So and we were just a couple blocks away.
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:02.319
Yeah.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.160
So it's unique to say, like, oh, there's another cool place that opened up that's focused.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:06.559
Yeah.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:11.519
You know, I I've never been excited really to go to bars that are too broad stroke.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.480
Like I wouldn't go to a restaurant, you know, it's like going to a diner.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.559
I can get uh waffles or eggs.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:17.759
Uh like a bulk.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.720
I can get a steak, yeah, baked clams, I can get matzo soup, but none of them are gonna be that great.
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:22.960
Yeah.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:27.200
But if they're like, we just do matzo ball soup and eggs, I'd be like, man, let's go check this out, right?
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.319
Um so I think that there was a little sympatico there.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:35.599
And the timing was crazy because like 2012-2013 was was was nutty years.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:42.319
I I happened to win a sherry cocktail competition, Steve Olson took me to Jerez.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.640
I went to visit 14 bodegas in a week, and it was great.
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:48.079
Steve and I are still friends.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:57.200
That same year, I or the year before that, actually, I won the Bulls Geneva cocktail thing, so I was in Europe doing that.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:01.839
And that summer, we were both American finalists for DiAgio World Class.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:02.880
Oh, that's right, yeah.
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.640
And that's kind of And that was and that was the first world class in America.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.039
Yeah.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:07.440
Yeah.
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:19.920
And I feel like we were that was like, oh, you and I think from that, I mean, we knew each other a little bit, but then going through that sitch really kind of hooked us together and we've been pretty tight friends ever since then.
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:27.440
Which is a uh for me, that's the the best thing in in the hospital industry, the bar, the bar world.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:34.559
Because I always said, like, if you're a barback, probably you are doing, you know, you're just learning and you're doing something else.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.319
You just go work and go home.
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:37.759
Server is the same.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:42.720
It's like, you know, we're too tired, or we're just gonna have some something to eat and let's go home.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.559
Well, bartenders, they don't do that.
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:52.480
They usually go and it's like, let's have a beer to, you know, to decompress, and then you start having these conversations after, like, you know.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:00.000
Also complaining about the the shift, which is the best thing ever, you know, because it's like benting and it's like the best thing ever.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:00.880
Download.
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:02.400
Yeah, download, yeah.
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:16.400
But then you become friends with someone, and it's it's kind of hard in New York City to have a friend because obviously everybody's busy, the schedules are always like different, and uh even dating is also horrible.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:26.720
You know, and I think bartenders, even in to this day for me, is very interesting that you work your whole shift, you want to hang out about a little bit.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:32.319
And then your day off also, sometimes you go and do an RD, and oh, let's try these different things.
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:32.799
Oh, yeah.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:38.640
I mean, uh the advice that I've given to younger bartenders, and like uh, you know, I was uh I was asked and I didn't do it.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:44.559
Uh I'll do it next time they ask me, but you know that thing they do uh letters to a young bartender or a letter to your young self or whatever it tails.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.720
I was I was too busy, so I couldn't do it.
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:57.680
But like the advice that I do give to the younger bartenders is when I was starting out in New York at the Atlantic Grill and whatever other places I worked, uh I was a day bartender at the Atlantic Grill, so I had all my nights free.
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, but I would on my two nights a week off, I would go to three different bars on each of those nights.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:10.240
I wouldn't stay long, I would have one drink, maybe an appetizer or whatever, so I could have a little bit of snacks throughout the evening.
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:16.720
But I would shake hands with the bartender, say my name, say where I worked, and you know, over the course of a year now I've got hundreds of names.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:18.160
Maybe they've handed me the cards.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:26.079
Like it was the most um like really rewarding way to network and get my name and face in front of people.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:26.799
You know what I mean?
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.240
Yeah, like established myself by doing that as a as a young, I wasn't young, but like as a young bartender.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:32.400
Yeah.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:46.400
That was my, you know, which is I you know, I've I've I'm on record in other places as saying things like, you know, there's no other business like ours where I could be like, oh, you know, I'm you know, whatever, even like mechanics, I don't know.
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:53.359
Uh I'm I'm watching you on YouTube do something mechanical that I don't know how to do, and then I can just jump into your DMs and be like, hey, I got a mechanic shop too.
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:54.079
Can you tell me how you did that?
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:55.680
And you're like, figure it out yourself, man.
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:56.720
This is my business.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:56.960
Yeah.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.279
Right?
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:03.200
But meanwhile, in the bar world, like I see someone in Imbibe magazine who lives in Portland, Oregon, and they're doing this cool thing.
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:04.960
I'm like, hey man, how'd you do that?
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:06.319
And they're like, Oh, I did it like this.
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:06.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:08.400
You know, so like we're very willing to share.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.759
We're open source, you know, we're not really gatekeepers of information.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:18.079
We're um, you know, we understand that the high tide raises all boats and you can't copyright recipes anyway, so you may as well give them away to establish provenance.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.319
So like I think um that that propelled me.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:31.839
And again, coming into this career late as a second career, I needed to have something to sort of accelerate my acceptance into the fold.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.880
And um just a quick question.
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:42.559
So you know, like usually also there's a like this stereotype of like this is not a career.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:50.240
Like you guys did it like you're like technically like a profession, like being a chef or like actor coming from college.
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.200
How do you feel now that it's like it is a career?
00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:06.880
Well, it it is, and and you know, I I think that especially people who have been in theater going into the restaurant world are very reluctant and very like, oh, I'm not gonna quit doing what I'm doing, kind of thing.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.680
But you have much more control.
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:13.119
Like theater is difficult.
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:17.440
I I do miss it, but not not enough to really want to do out again.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:27.279
Um it's when you when you approach it, like I remember it was in 2005 when I think I just went, not this is what I'm gonna do.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:31.599
And I I turned down some acting jobs, and my wife was like, Really?
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:32.799
I'm like, yeah.
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.079
And it was kind of the best choice.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:42.400
You know, it's like we back in the I think at that time too, there were a lot more educational events.
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:43.359
We went to all of them.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:44.319
There really were, yeah.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:45.839
We went to every single one.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.200
And I I feel like we're missing that right now.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:56.880
And it wasn't it wasn't like I'm promoting my brand of me, the bartender.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:57.359
Nope.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.480
It was you're a bartender.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.799
You know, we're we're here for you, not for me.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:06.079
You know what I mean?
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.839
So that's changed a little bit, I think.
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:14.559
You know, I'm not really sure I I'm happy about words changed too.
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:21.440
I mean, Jim Meean is a good friend, and he I will always credit him with this quote that I use all the time.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.279
Mixologists serve drinks, bartenders serve people.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:25.599
Yeah.
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:27.039
I'm a bartender.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.759
So mixology is about me.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:30.480
Nope.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:31.839
Bartending is about you.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:34.720
So that's my that was always my approach.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.279
And Sasha was very much that person as well, too.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.200
So Yeah, I think also, you know, to your question of like, is it a career?
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:45.759
You know, again, my dad owned a bar when I was a kid grinding, he, you know, he got rid of it by the time I was maybe 15.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:54.240
But uh hospitality employs, we're the it's the largest employment sector in the United States and has been kind of forever, you know.
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:56.000
Um, just because we're not all linked together.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:59.759
You know, I always say as as like bartenders, you know, we used to send boomerangs to one another.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:01.200
I call that the inner office memo.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:05.440
Like we're all working for the same big corporation, we're just at different branch offices, you know.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:11.199
Um so like you know, and again, I was I was a chef, it wasn't that big a leap.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:12.400
Is the chef a real career?
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.320
I mean, yeah, so why isn't bartending?
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:14.719
Yeah, right?
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:19.280
It's the same building, it's the same output, it's the same bottom line and PL.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:40.159
Like, why is one, you know, and and also I would say over and over when I train people at my bars and restaurants, when I've visited other bars and restaurants, or when I give advice to the younger bartenders or even older bartenders, I say to them, how many times in any given week, because I know it happens at least once a week, how many times in a week as a bartender does someone sitting at your bar ask you if you're the owner?
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:40.719
Yeah.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:42.960
How many times does that happen to the service staff?
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:43.440
Yep.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:44.239
Zero.
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:44.719
Yep.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:53.039
You are already in a point of prestige, you're in a point of trust, you're in a point of like um, you know, uh a sort of honor, right?
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:56.800
Like the bartender, nothing uh, you know, nothing beats the bartender.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.119
But you know, when you're there, you do own the black.
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.360
I mean, it's like that's how I I approach it.
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:03.119
It's like this is my place.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:04.079
So yeah.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:06.239
Of course you're gonna ask me if I'm the owner.
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.239
I'm like, well, tonight I am.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.280
Yeah, you know.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:15.199
So I'm running the bar, I'm making sure everybody gets uh the same uh attention, you know?
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:15.440
Yeah.
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:17.039
I mean, if it's at a table.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:24.400
And if even if it's not sitting in front of you, are the attention might mean to as a partner is make making the same cocktail for that person when they hit the table.
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:33.199
You know, you can probably be on the second floor, but the same cocktail uh for a person sitting right in front of you and to the person that is sitting on the second floor without even connecting.
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.639
Uh what were you about to say?
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.800
Uh no, I was gonna go back to the same question.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:44.239
Like, so when you mentioned like you you to wreck every educational part of the business, right?
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:56.320
But there is something I think for for me now that I see like a lot of events, parties, pop-ups, and everything, it's about you know going there, knowing the brand.
00:35:56.480 --> 00:36:00.559
Uh sometimes they have masterclasses, uh, as they call it now.
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.400
But what was the part that you were like taking that you don't see here anymore?
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:14.880
I think well so there's a moment where I was the president of the USB G United States Bartoners Guild chapter of New York City, the largest chapter there is or was or whatever.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:20.320
Um and when I took it over, I see so we have monthly meeting, at least one monthly meeting.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:29.280
We had uh over 600 um members at the time, but a meeting, uh the monthly meeting would usually garner around 150, 120 people would show up because scheduling and everything else.
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.079
But um still that's a huge number of people show up.
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.519
And so brands wanted to get to be a part of it, and they were a part of it, and that's great.
00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.199
They helped fund USB G.
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:47.920
Um, but I immediately took on the role of saying, like, okay, you know, if you're gonna bring your brand in here or whatever, let's say Lisa Laird is gonna come in and do a a talk about Laird's Apple Brandy.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.960
I would say you've got uh you know 45 minutes to talk to us.
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:53.920
You can talk about Laird's for 15 minutes.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:58.559
I need 30 minutes about apple brandy, about brandy, about fruit brandy.
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:02.000
I need you to educate these people and then sell your product.
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:04.000
This isn't a 45-minute commercial for you.
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:05.920
So I tried to like bend that.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:10.800
Um, and then like what you're saying, you know, USBG was a was a huge part of my life for a while.
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:15.360
It's kind of it hasn't disbanded by any means, but it's sort of fallen off its mantle.
00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:19.679
Um, you know, the brands pop up and do educational events.
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:23.280
Like, but I think now it's more about doing a party than an educational.
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:23.920
Yeah.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:33.119
I think when we were coming up, any one of these parties that you see now had a moment at the top of it or in the middle where they would stop and talk about like what we're doing here.
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:34.880
Then we'd have our little party or what have you.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:41.199
It was like usually like a three o'clock start, and you'd get the education, and then that would uh morph into a happy hour.
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.280
I mean it's like I remember the Tank 10 release.
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:50.639
I remember every single Delmagay thing that I went to because I became obsessed with uh Mescal.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:51.920
I remember every Sherry.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:56.320
Misty would come down all the time from Boston and talk to us about you know up and Delma Gay.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.960
Yeah, and even as you mentioned, Steve Olson was always there.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:07.280
Steve Olson and and you know, the Aquavit thing with Linnea Aquavit, and it's like, oh my God, I'm learning all this stuff.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.639
And that just becomes part of your bag of tricks.
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.440
And you know, eventually, did you have you done bar five day?
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:14.320
Oh god, no.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:15.519
So I would.
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.800
I actually I honestly would.
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.679
It's just too damn expensive.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:18.079
It is.
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:26.800
I was lucky enough to be able to do that in 2010, and that was probably one of the best educational situations I've ever had in my life.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.199
And that's the one thing I was trying to do.
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:33.760
I I was trying to last yeah, I think we we we tried to do it like I think like West Council.
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:39.360
But high barrier for entry for me and for a lot of people, obviously, you can get sponsorship for it or what have you.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:44.800
Um, but I also have been involved for years because uh, you know, I I taught for two years at a culinary school.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:50.639
So I went to culinary school a long time ago, and then more recently, even though it's also a long time ago, I was an instructor at a culinary school.
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.480
That was kind of the end of my cooking career.
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:54.880
It's the last job I had before I moved to New York.
00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:00.079
Um so I've always had like and again during that my career, I was at the research and technical chef.
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:01.840
Like I'm sitting around with a bunch of books and research.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:05.039
Like I'm I'm a thinker, at least I'm a pretty good teacher.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:08.960
Um, so I've taught for years on and off at things like Bar Methods.
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:11.039
Uh I've done seminars at Tales of the Cocktail.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:13.920
I think there's a little bit lower barrier of entry there for both of those.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:15.920
Um now maybe that's changing with tails.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:21.280
But um, and then for years I I taught at um uh Portland Cocktail Week, which is free.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:29.920
Uh you get yourself there and they put you up, they cover the uh your um hotel and uh um and all your food, and then all the seminars are free.
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:32.079
So I've never been like a gatekeeper.
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:34.239
I don't want to hold back information.
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:38.400
I want it to be as free-flowing as possible, but at the same time, it needs to be quality, right?
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.840
So like there's there's some manipulation that has to be done there.
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:48.239
But I yeah, I think it's a watchword for me to never gatekeep information from from my teams or from anyone, frankly.
00:39:48.400 --> 00:40:05.280
And in fact, there was a time at Outfront on Mother Pearl where we would do our own my own kind of version of the USPG monthly meeting where I would invite, of course, all my bartenders from all my spots, but then I would reach out to all the local bars as well and say, come and join us for this.
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:11.840
So we would have, you know, again, brands come in and talk about their category and then talk about their product.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:13.039
I think that's important.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:21.920
I mean, as a bartender, uh, as a season bartender, I think that's important because you don't only want to get, like you say, a commercial of what can I buy, how can I promote it, how can I sell it.
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:33.039
What I want to know more is about what are the variations or the process, uh, why did this came about, like the whole story about the uh spirit itself, not about all the brands.
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:38.880
Because I think that's one of the things that we want, like we know as Martiners, you know, we know brands and we know a little bit of the spiel.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:46.800
But honestly, uh I think it's it's easier for us to connect with the customer and with the guest when you talk a little bit about the story, you know.
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:56.159
Like you tell them a little bit what the what is a potato vodka, what is a grape vodka, what is it uh rye vodka, you know, like semolina, I don't know, whatever kind of grain that they use for vodka.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.360
But I think that's very important.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.840
And if you don't know, he's talking about vodka with me.
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:00.239
Yeah.
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.000
And you don't even have more, right?
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:12.800
No, no, but we know four bars that we've worked at that don't carry it.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:13.760
Yeah, but that's all right.
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:18.960
It's good for cleaning a mirror or if you cut vodka's water with consequences.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:24.639
Yeah, but but that's the whole thing, though.
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:26.639
We all want to know like more about it.
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:34.320
Like you have to give and you have to really not be nerdy about it, but you just have to like have 15 minutes, 45 minutes a day to learn this.
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:39.199
Like it doesn't matter if you like tequila, vodka, whiskey, scotch, anything really.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:40.880
Like just learn a little bit the process.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.239
And I think it's easy for you to understand the other brand, that the side of the brand.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:45.360
I think that's what I'm trying to say.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:45.920
Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:46.400
100%.
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:50.960
And when you like if somebody comes into your bar and they're you're the one that they're gonna ask the questions to.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:52.639
So you need to know stuff.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:54.800
Oh, I I you know, you have to.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:56.880
I don't want to look foolish in front of my guests.
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:57.199
No.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:08.320
So, like, for instance, when we get anything new at a Mori Margot that we haven't seen, we get I get four bottles and then I put it under the bar, not on the back bar, no guest can see it.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.079
And there's a notebook under there.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.599
And we as a team, because we don't work together, there's only one of us five nights a week and two of us on the weekends, right?
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.880
As a team, we sip through the bottles and we write our notes down.
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:20.800
And at first we start just tasting it.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:22.880
Then we say, okay, now I'll put it on ice.
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:27.199
Now I'll add seltzer water, now I'll think about what I might mix this with, right?
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:32.239
Because the the sort of undertone is I can't I can't make chicken soup if I've never eaten chicken.
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:35.920
So we're gonna eat this chicken first and talk about what we think it would go with.
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.360
And then I'll order more and we'll put a bottle on the back bar.
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:48.000
Because you understand, even though that tiny little bar has hundreds of bottles on it, the minute I put a new bottle up, the first guy who walks in goes, what's that?
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.320
And if I don't have an answer, what's that and how do I drink it and what do I have it with?
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.800
If I don't have an answer, I look foolish.
00:42:54.960 --> 00:43:00.800
And so, in an effort to distance myself from that anxiety, we go through this process.
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:01.119
Right?
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:04.400
That's that's the best process ever.
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:14.320
So talking about like, you know, back in the day, there is something that you don't see anymore in New York City in the bars?
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:19.920
Yeah, I can't wait for it.
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:27.360
I can't wait to sit down at a bar and have an a bartender actually make a drink in front of me instead of pouring out of a pre-batch.
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:28.639
I I miss that.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:37.199
And I I think versions of that will circle back into the normal vernacular.
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:38.400
I hope.
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:39.920
What am I using?
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:41.280
Yeah, I'm thinking.
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:44.880
Um besides the ashtrays.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:46.320
I don't miss them.
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:48.880
I'm just saying what's you said, what don't you see anymore?
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:54.320
Uh yeah, I remember sitting in uh uh you know holidays smoking cigarettes in there late at night all the time.
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:54.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.599
Um what's what what do I not see in the bars that I wish I did?
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.400
Uh engagement.
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:08.079
I impress upon my teams that we have to be intimate and engaging because my bar is so tiny.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.440
So like if you're not, it's like standing in an elevator with someone without saying anything to them.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:11.760
It's weird.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:12.320
You know what?
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:13.039
That's a good analogy.
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:17.039
So you gotta be really in my bar, you gotta engage with people or it's awkward.
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:26.159
Uh what I've noticed, uh, mostly post-pandemic, is that we have a lot of younger people behind the bar because a lot of like older dudes like tongue.
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:28.719
Um a lot of older dudes have left bartending.
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:30.480
You're in the field, but you're not behind the bar anymore.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.360
Um so like we've suddenly got a shortfall of mentors and leaders.
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:43.920
But what we do have, of course, then is tons of information that's available online at the Ready, YouTube, TikTok, you know, Instagram, etc.
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:49.599
So we have all these people who are a little bit younger, so they're not super accustomed to being engaging yet.
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:52.239
Uh, you know, the gift of gab is is something you have to cultivate.
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.400
And if you're too young, you haven't cultivated it yet.
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:56.639
But they have the technical information.
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:02.239
So you can say, I'll have a whatever, a last word, and they will make you a pretty technically proficient last word.
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:04.880
But then they sit it down and they ignore you.
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:06.159
They look back at their phone.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:16.400
They're also not in tune with making sure the lighting is the right heat for what time of day or evening it is, making sure the music is the right beats per minute or volume for how many people are in the room.
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:20.639
Um, you know, just making you feel comfortable seen, heard, and welcome.
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.880
I think that everything's a pendulum.
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:28.800
I think we've swung wide widely outside of that, and now the guest is demanding it again, so it's coming back.
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:34.000
Um, but I think that that's what's been a missing category for me for a while is like intimacy with uh with the guest.
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:34.639
You know what?
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:36.639
Now that I mention that, I think I want to add to this.
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:44.639
Um I had a conversation with a guest one day, and she said that one reason like I hear that a lot of people is not drinking, they're not going to bar, this is this and that.
00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:54.320
And that's one of the reasons because when they go to a bar and they sit at a bar, they sp they have a drink, and then the bartender turns around, ignores them per se, or he is distracted.
00:45:55.119 --> 00:46:00.719
You don't really have to have a long conversation with guests because you know you can't really have that because you have to attend other people.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:06.159
But at least when somebody's sitting right in front of you have a small conversation, hey, or whatever, break the eyes.
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:08.559
Exactly, something or I don't know, the weather, right?
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:10.239
Yeah, I like his pants, those are cool.
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:13.360
Yeah, like engage with them, exactly intimate with them in some quick way.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:22.320
And then frankly, I think another lost, and you know, I don't want to be old man shakes fist at Sky here, but another thing that's lost is um the ability to, yeah, I I I I am busy.
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.519
I do have to kind of ignore you.
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.960
But have you met Tom?
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.400
Yeah, you guys are drinking the same whiskey, you probably enjoy each other's conversation.
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:32.079
Yeah, you guys uh chat, you know, and and you you you are a connector.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:32.559
Exactly.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.920
I can't tell you over my time behind the bar, I'm sure yours as well.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.440
I know for a fact I have introduced people who are now married with children.
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:40.480
I absolutely know that.
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:41.440
That's a no-brainer.
00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:46.480
I also know that I have been the guy who was the connector for multi-million dollar deals.
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:46.960
Yeah.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:47.440
Right?
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:50.480
Uh I also know I've made people become very good friends.
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.880
I also know that I personally have many, many of my best friends in life are people who sat at my bar.
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:55.519
Right?
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.840
So there's there's a way to connect people to yourself or to the people around them.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:01.760
You know, you're walking the length of the bar.
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.760
You know, we go we call it the lion in the cage, right?
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:04.559
We're just pacing.
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:05.119
Right?
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:06.559
You're walking the length of the bar.
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:13.599
And you might pick up on a conversation that Tom's having on one end of the bar and go to the other end, and Nuri's having a conversation, you're like, man, they're not sitting next to each other, but these guys gotta know each other.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.039
These guys need to know each other.
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:18.079
So I might say, hey, uh I'm gonna hey, let me carry your wine down here.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:19.119
I'm gonna set you next to Tom.
00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:20.159
Open sea.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.239
I think you guys have something you're gonna discuss.
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:22.400
Yeah.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:23.599
And you just connect people.
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.559
And I think that that is um it's not the easiest thing to do.
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.920
But it is uh and and that's why I think it's missing.
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:34.400
And but but but where did it where where did I get it?
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:35.840
I got it from the guy who taught me.
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:36.079
Yeah.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.320
I don't think there's that guy teaching people right now.
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:40.880
The mentor is a vacuum right now.
00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:50.960
Yeah, I um one of the things that I was reading is like which it was very impressive for me that uh the C generation, right?
00:47:51.039 --> 00:48:03.760
The G is like the face that they put when someone says something, they they don't have any response because they don't feel like they want or they owe you a response for anything.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:10.239
And for me it's also kind of like losing that community or society as humans that we're socials, right?
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:17.519
And this thing with the uh pandemic and the Instagram thing, and like everybody's in their own bubble.
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:23.840
Uh working in this industry for me is like coming with the idea of like you're gonna be part of the community.
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:36.639
And when I see you know, bartenders or like servers or whoever is in the on the phone, for me it's not just disrespectful, but also it's like, dude, you have to be present because if something happened, you know, you're on your phone and you don't know what is going on.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:50.320
And at the end of the day, it's like something that I learned is like if you have an emergency, you can give that the the restaurant phone number to your family and they can call because it's an emergency.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:56.800
Other than that, your family or friends or whoever, they should know you're working and they shouldn't text you at all.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:03.599
And sometimes this kind of conversation feels like, oh, you're very like uptight, strong and everything.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:07.760
But for me, it has to have ethic work to be a part of something.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:19.360
Yeah, I I mean I I there's uh there's a big part of me that wants to agree with you, but there's also a small part of me that understands that like I hate that we're all cogs in this capitalist machine that we didn't choose to be and we have to be.
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:25.760
And I totally understand when the I don't know, the clerk at the checkout at my grocery store doesn't want to say hello to me.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:26.719
I don't care, she doesn't care.
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:28.239
She has to poke buttons and take my money.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:28.960
That's her job.
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.239
No, nowhere in her job descriptions does it say she has to care for me.
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:36.480
Um, but in our field, there's there's a wider birth of that, right?
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:38.320
It is kind of in your job description.
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:39.599
It is the job, right?
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:43.360
We we serve again, you just said it great, like we serve people, not drinks.
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:47.199
Um but I I I I empathize with the worker.
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:47.840
Of course.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:52.719
Uh, you know, if they just want to set the drink down and go back to scrolling, hey, listen, what who am I?
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.440
Um but at the same time, uh that's not what I want.
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:56.719
That's not what I want in my place.
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.679
That's what I try and impress upon my team, like engage with people.
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.360
But I do it in a in another way.
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:10.239
I try and show them I don't need to convince them, I need to show them that the more engaged you are with your guest, the more money you make.
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:13.840
And again, if we're gonna be trapped in this capitalist machine, let's exercise it.
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:16.079
You know, let's put it to its paces.
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:16.960
Take advantage.
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:28.400
And on that though, it's like when when when when what the first thing out of Sasha's mouth when he was training us, the very first thing was that your first job is you're the protector of the room, period.
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:28.800
Yeah.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:32.800
And you're protecting people from each other, but from themselves as well.
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:36.000
Oh man, bartender protect me from myself is a mantra of mine.
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:36.559
Yeah.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:46.559
So it's like, so and that that is also what engages exactly what what Souther was saying is like when you're behind the bar and you're doing the line in a cage pace.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:52.239
When I go to bars, even now, you forget that you're only two feet away from the bartender.
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.960
So every conversation you have, they can hear.
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:59.360
Second thing he said is discretion is your most most important thing.
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.880
So it's like you don't you don't repeat anything you hear unless you're connecting people.
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:05.679
You're all right.
00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:08.559
You don't even repeat anything, you connect people.
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:08.880
Yeah.
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:21.119
And we always had this thing, you know, it was Tinder Tuesdays at at Ur at Deer Irving, and we were there to save people from bad people too.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:21.760
Yeah.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:29.360
You know, so it's like, you know, it is as you were saying, how many people you've connected, there's been a lot of people that I've been helped escape as well.
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:33.920
So it's the it's it gets really complicated.
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:40.320
And like Southern was saying, there's nobody instilling that or training that anymore.
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.480
I mean, there are sure.
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:53.840
Like I have people that I go to their bars all the time and they ask me questions, but it's not like I'm doing it for them to watch me do it, you know.
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:59.760
So it's and and the at the level of engagement, which is also uh involved in it.
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:06.639
It's like when I'd be training bartenders, I would say, so what's the first thing you ask somebody when they sit down?
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:10.239
What what what booze do you want in your drink?
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:12.639
Or what's your favorite liquor, or what's your favorite flavor?
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:14.480
I'm like, no, none of those are right.
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:20.800
So you first ask how their day was, and then what flavors they hate.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.000
And then are you allergic to anything?
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:25.679
Nothing beyond that.
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:32.159
You know, and if you make them a drink that they hate, you know exactly the right drink to make the next time.
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:35.679
And that was a hundred percent accurate.
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:41.360
I mean, let you know, well, sometimes they wouldn't like it, but the next drink nailed it.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:43.440
But it was all about engagement.
00:52:43.599 --> 00:53:00.880
And, you know, we do use our phones back there, and part of the complicated thing of I'm kind of for having your phone back there is that in those days during that chunk of time, if somebody was at Amor and they came to my bar and they said, Hey, can you make this drink from Amora?
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:13.760
I have this database that this young man named Josh Perez put together that he gathered all of the the uh cocktails from all of the bars at the time and put it in one database.
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:17.360
I feel like it's an extended form of good hospitality.
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.119
So you're you you you go to Amora lot and you come to my bar.
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.920
If I can make that drink, I can make that drink.
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:28.320
If it's some complicated syrup or some clarified whatever, I can't.
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:30.639
And then go to that bar and enjoy it there.
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:37.440
But if I can make a drink for you that is your favorite drink over at the Nomad, and I have the stuff, I'll make it for you.
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:39.199
You know, so right.
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:44.559
I mean, early days for me behind the bar, and I'm sure for you as well, uh, you know, I had, you know, Mr.
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:45.360
Boston guy.
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:45.760
Yeah.
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:46.559
That's the same thing.
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.280
I'm turning around and looking up the Alamaguzalum.
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:50.719
Exactly.
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:52.480
Breaking out my phone and looking back.
00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:53.760
Can I do that?
00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:54.880
Oh yeah, I can make that.
00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:58.800
When I was behind the bar, when I was in the kitchen, I used to carry around, you you may remember these.
00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:05.840
Um Jane Goodall was famous for having she carried a notebook that was bright yellow because she lost it in the grasses with the with the apes.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:07.519
Um easy to spot.
00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:09.679
But it was called Right in the Rain.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:10.800
And they were waterproof.
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:15.599
And that's what we used we used in kitchens because our hands were wet when we were, you know, or whatever.
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:16.000
Right.
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:16.880
Or greasy.
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:19.119
And that's so I used those behind the bar for years.
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:21.920
So I'd have my notebooks and I'd be like, oh, let me look that up real fast.
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:24.159
Like, it's the same, but it's just another tool.
00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:24.639
Yep.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:25.679
Um faster.
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:28.639
So that's what I started using when I started also art, I think.
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:30.000
I thought I put in things on books.
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:32.239
I just paste it with glue and oh yeah.
00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:34.800
They cut in mole scans, you paste in stuff.
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:34.960
Yeah.
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:38.000
Didn't the Right as Rain guys came out with a mole skin side one?
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:39.280
I remember there was a waterproof.
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:41.920
Yeah, a little I had one of those for years.
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:45.760
Mine that I had in the kitchen and then subsequently behind the bar, it had a holster.
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:53.039
So it was always on my hip with a little pin pocket and the pin that I used, of course, was the space pin because you can write underwater.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:55.920
So like if my hands were dripping wet, I could still write stuff down.
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:57.440
Anyway, we just got a funny weird.
00:54:57.679 --> 00:55:00.400
No, no, but no, it's a good weird memory tangent about my own.
00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:05.199
But that's good because those are the tools that you use, you know, like that you had access to also.
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:09.679
Well, I guess what I'm saying is like I don't take it away from people physically or otherwise.
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:12.719
I don't I don't detract from them for having this tool to use.
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:20.239
Sadly, you know, the the the the photos that we always see of like, well, look at this photo from you know the 1930s and everybody's reading the newspaper, they're all disengaged.
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:22.320
I'm like, yeah, the newspaper's pretty finite.
00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:28.159
If everybody's sitting there looking at their smartphone, they could be looking at literally any of human the human condition.
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:30.400
You know, they're not just reading the same paper.
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.400
Um there's you know, you like you can only scroll to the end of the newspaper and then it's over.
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:36.800
You can scroll to you can never scroll to the end of the internet.
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:37.280
Yeah.
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.039
So I get that there's obvious difference, but I I I it's just another tool.
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:42.320
Uh it has to be there.
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:44.400
Don't you know be egregious about it.
00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:49.760
For me, it's like you know, that uh at the end of the day, obviously we turn in different eras.
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:53.280
Like now we have the access to having fun on your hand.
00:55:53.679 --> 00:56:00.880
Like uh when I moved to New York in 2004, I didn't have a like internet available on the on the train, for example, right?
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:07.280
But I think also you know adapting to certain things to use it in your advantage is good.
00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:28.159
But when it distracts you from things that are supposed to be there, that's when it comes from like you know, not having a good bartender, paying attention to things, and uh and the other part is like you know, I feel like with this era of Instagram that everybody is like so anxious of like what they call it FOMO, like fear of missing something.
00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:28.960
I have Jomo.
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:32.000
Joy of missing out.
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:36.880
Yeah.
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:38.559
You're home with your cat.
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:42.079
Join some whiskey in the world state.
00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:42.719
Yep.
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:54.719
But uh but I feel also that you know there are consequences with the pandemic that many people left the industry, they have to hire whoever was available or wanted to work.
00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:04.079
And we have young generations of like they don't even know how to bar back because they just wear like the server that they jump into the bar and learn stuff, which is good.
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:06.639
Uh, you know, in terms of like you have a job.
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:06.960
Yeah.
00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:25.920
But I feel like, you know, having now access to the internet and everything, and having, you know, tutors like you guys, there's also part of like going somewhere and not just go with the same five bars all the time and saying, like, which is your favorite bar?
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:30.159
And they mention the same five bars and then they forget about the other ones.
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:30.719
Yeah.
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.159
You know, it's like it's one of those things too that you shiny, look over here.
00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:47.199
Look, yeah, and and and what you said earlier about the the the pandemic, yes, all of New York went home, the ones that weren't from New York, like super talented bar folk.
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.000
Someone gets to Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:55.679
They find a building that they can buy for the cost of one month's rent in New York.
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:56.000
Yeah.
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:58.880
So they buy that building and they open up bar there.
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:05.039
And now they own the bar, so they know that the bar will always be there instead of 10 years from now, when your lease is up, you're out.
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.400
And we had a big brain drain.
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:18.400
And I think it's great because now everywhere has really good little cocktail bars, which another thing is you've got to be careful what you wish for.
00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:22.400
Because when I was in the cocktail scene, how many 15 years ago?
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:24.639
And you know, people say, Well, what do you hope happens?
00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:33.280
I say, Well, I would like to have kind of a really casual place with wooden tables, great draft system, and be able to get a good drink with maybe a big chunk of ice.
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:34.159
We're there.
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:34.559
Yeah.
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:47.199
And every bar is now a cocktail bar, which should be, but now the cocktail bars are forced to do something even more special, quote, or something.
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:48.159
So that you come to them.
00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:48.480
Yeah.
00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:54.000
So you're seeing a lot of a lot of this stuff is really cool, and I'm really fascinated by it.
00:58:54.079 --> 00:59:06.400
Like you're using, you know, they're making koji and they're doing mirin that's flavored with different kinds of misos, and you're clarifying things, and all of those things are fascinating.
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:10.239
I'm a little thinking it's a way too a little too much right now.
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:13.599
Let's go back to some just cook the meat properly.
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:16.159
I mean, that they used to say on on top chef.
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:16.320
Right.
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:19.119
Just cook it properly, and then the other stuff should fall in.
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:20.000
Fall in line, yeah.
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:20.239
Yeah.
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:22.320
I'm I'm I'm in the same camp as you.
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:24.960
We've again, but I always think it's just everything's a pendulum.
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:27.599
The pendulum has swung in this direction pretty far.
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:35.920
Um, restaurants, sorry, bars have become sort of de facto drinking restaurants, yeah, where every drink is proprietary to the house.
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:44.800
Whereas I think our sort of you know, time was there was a couple of proprietary drinks, but almost all the other drinks could probably be made kind of anywhere.
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:45.199
Yeah.
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:45.599
Right?
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:50.239
Um, there's this sort of like base level of the drinks, and then there's a couple of stars.
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:55.760
Now, entire menus are those quote unquote stars, which you know, I don't know.
00:59:56.079 --> 00:59:57.440
Again, it's pro and a con.
00:59:57.519 --> 00:59:58.159
I don't hate it.
00:59:58.239 --> 00:59:59.840
Everything, I think everything belongs, you know.
00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:05.119
I I've said this to you before, like uh uh for the listener, very famous restaurant here in New York is called La Bernadette.
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.840
It's probably one of the most uh known seafood restaurants in the world.
01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:08.320
Great.
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.360
Uh so I say to you, Tom, let's talk about this tomorrow over fish, right?
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:11.920
At lunch.
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.880
Uh we can go to McDonald's or La Bernadette, they both serve fish.
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:18.320
But what's your expectation of this lunch?
01:00:18.559 --> 01:00:18.800
Right?
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:21.920
So, like, what's your expectation of going out to a bar these days has changed?
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:28.480
And you got shows like Drinkmasters that are really skewing maybe the middle of the country's view of what a cocktail bar is.
01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:31.039
You know, those aren't that that that's not a cocktail.
01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:34.000
That's a that's a that's a uh literally a show.
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:34.880
That's production.
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:36.320
That's uh yeah.
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:48.000
Um and that can't be done at scale, that can't be done in a in a bar that's moving through volume that you know, and probably frankly can't be done at a bar that isn't moving through volume, you know, they can maybe produce four of those drinks throughout the entire evening.
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:55.760
So like I understand that there's a bit of fear there from our side to not go so far that we can't come back.
01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:58.960
Um but I also don't think that like you know, low-end bars are not going anywhere.
01:00:59.199 --> 01:01:00.239
They're they're always gonna exist.
01:01:00.559 --> 01:01:12.880
No, and the point about the show is I think uh you're right, because if somebody cannot make 20 of those cocktails with like the nitrogen and the flour and whatever, all the ingredients that they have, think about cost as well.
01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:21.039
Because one of those cocktails is gonna be$100 in a bow, probably because of the entire show and the process and the timing.
01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:27.360
Um, but for some of those, uh it's hard to duplicate in cocktail bars that actually have two, three floors.
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:27.679
Yeah.
01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:30.320
So if you go to a nightclub, basically you can't get that.
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:30.639
Right.
01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:35.119
You know, people tend to get bottles, tend to get people tend to get uh bottles and uses.
01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:38.480
Like I'm I've I've seen that because I work at a nightclub a long time ago.
01:01:38.800 --> 01:01:48.880
I think the problem for me from the consumer's point of view is consumers have always had this strange dichotomous split in their minds about what a bar or a restaurant is.
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.079
They go to a restaurant and they know like this is a burger place, I'm getting a burger.
01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:54.239
They're not trying to order sushi at the burger place.
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.639
But they go to a bar, they think a bar is a bar, is a bar.
01:01:56.719 --> 01:01:59.119
And at the last bar I got this, can I get this at this bar?
01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:00.239
Right?
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:12.239
And I think that maybe through some better education from our time behind the bars and from having bars that are focused, you can start to teach people like, oh, I'm I'm at a Mori Mario, I can't get a daiquiri here.
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:13.119
That they don't do that.
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:15.039
They don't have juice, they don't have sugar, they don't shake drinks.
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:16.320
Like, we're way out of bounds here.
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:20.719
But you can look around and see what's going on, and we'll order that because this is where we are, right?
01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:28.960
Um, I think that like it's a real hard, I don't say hardship, but it's a very difficult mind frame.
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:37.280
Because for some reason, I've noticed this is getting less and less, but for years and years, people, you know, you'd you'd know your regulars and you'd be like, oh, here comes Tom.
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:38.559
He's drinking whiskey on the rats.
01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:43.199
You know, uh, here comes Nuri, she's gonna have a mojito, and like you know what people before they sit down here.
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:49.920
But you know when they you've got it sitting down in front of their seat before they've gotten seated, right?
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:52.480
And they feel good about that because you feel they've seen all that.
01:02:52.639 --> 01:03:01.760
But also then that implies that you drink that whether it's 10 degrees or 110 degrees, whether it's your birthday, your anniversary, the day your kid was born, the day your dog died, that's what you drink all the time.
01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:03.119
Who does that with food?
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:04.559
Yeah, nobody.
01:03:04.719 --> 01:03:07.119
And so suddenly we've finally gotten past that, I think.
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:09.840
Now people do drink with a greater variety, yeah.
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:16.000
But now we're showing them you can also drink with great variety and great technique and production value and prep.
01:03:16.159 --> 01:03:18.559
And it's just unsustainable on the grand scale, I think.
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:21.840
And I think that that's unless your entire program is that.
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:25.440
Let's look at Schmuck or Bar Contra, or even when I used to work at Booker and Dax.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:30.719
Like, if the entire program is that, then you're you're a specialty, right?
01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:40.239
Um, but but but we can't I think that it's hard for the consumer to to be like, oh, I was just at Bar Contra and I had a you know a house forced carbonated chartreuse drink.
01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:41.280
Can you make me that?
01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:41.920
No.
01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:49.679
Yeah, and also we think part of this is that it it's this is part of the bonus of living in New York or a curse or whatever.
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:56.400
It's like you can you can there are so many bars that you can be specialized.
01:03:56.559 --> 01:04:01.360
And you know, you like you know, somebody comes into Amore and says, Can I have a vodka?
01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:09.119
So it's like we don't have vodka, so you can literally go down the street and have that, but let me turn you on to something that I can do for you.
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:09.519
Right.
01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:12.239
So it also more conversation.
01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:12.719
Sure.
01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:13.679
You know, some people don't know.
01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:15.199
More conversation, more education.
01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:16.000
And some people don't.
01:04:16.719 --> 01:04:20.320
And you've got to be like, it's okay, somebody else will come in if you leave.
01:04:20.559 --> 01:04:20.719
Yeah.
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.000
And it's not a snotty thing to say, it's just a fact.
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:24.320
Yeah.
01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:34.800
And that's where you can get away with that in New York a little bit better than say you could in Lincoln, Nebraska, which would you you wouldn't be able to afford that conversation.
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:35.039
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:35.440
Right.
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:38.719
You don't have as much uh you're not in such a target-rich environment.
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:44.559
I always joke, you know, like you could literally open up a bar in New York that serves actual rusty nails.
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:45.039
Only.
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:46.239
Not not the drink.
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:48.400
Yeah, actual nails with rust on them.
01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:51.840
And you'd survive long enough to at least get a few months out of it.
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:56.000
There's enough people that would be curious and they would come in and they would try your actual rusty nail.
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.039
Um and people will make it a trend, it'll be viral.
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:02.800
Yeah, it'll be on Instagram, you'll blow up, you'll have a million followers, whatever.
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:07.519
Um it may not last forever, but but we're in such a target-rich environment.
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:12.000
We can get away with being hyper-specific, super focused, crazy obsessive.
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:15.039
You know, there's uh I mean look at Amor, it's all Amaro all the time.
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.840
Look at the cabinet, which is just all agave all the time.
01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:21.440
You know, like there's spots you can go and just get granular.
01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:23.119
But then it's like you I want that.
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:26.400
Like so I want to I want you know to go to Amor tonight.
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:27.519
And then maybe we'll go to this other.
01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:31.920
I mean, it's it creates uh a great environment.
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:35.840
It creates a a progression for a progression for the evening.
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:40.400
You know, it's like you start somewhere and you go to here and you end somewhere else because of how they specialize.
01:05:40.719 --> 01:05:41.039
Oh, sure.
01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:42.559
And I think that's the other thing too, right?
01:05:42.639 --> 01:05:49.840
Like when we do pop-ups all over the country, you know, uh, I realize, holy cow, people are only gonna have two drinks because they have to drive.
01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:50.960
Oh, yeah.
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:51.280
Right?
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:52.400
Not like New York.
01:05:52.639 --> 01:05:57.280
Or I also realize, oh, this person's sitting down and there's they got here at five when we opened and they're still here.
01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:58.000
It's eight o'clock.
01:05:58.079 --> 01:05:59.280
That's not what happens in New York.
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:01.760
People come in for a couple and they move on to the bar next door.
01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:03.840
But there is no bar next door in Lincoln, Nebraska.
01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:06.880
You pick the bar that you're going to tonight and you're there all night.
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:07.360
Yeah.
01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:07.920
You know?
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:08.400
Yeah.
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.079
You know, I say in New York people go out to dinner and they have dinner at a place.
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:14.480
But when they go out for drinks, they go to multiple places.
01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:14.880
Yep.
01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:15.199
Right?
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:16.079
Bar hop.
01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:16.239
Yeah.
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:16.639
Crawl.
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:17.280
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:21.519
You sometimes you sometimes go for a cocktail or two cocktails at a place.
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:25.840
Uh, and um I think us as bartenders are people who work in actually in the service industry.
01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:28.079
We tend to go to different bars, different places.
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:43.840
But the folk who's not uh like into you know going to cocktails and not into restaurants, or the people who just go and and have their birthday, their celebration, you know, uh the wedding anniversary, perhaps the wedding day, uh, that's when they go to our restaurant.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:49.840
And that's what our job is to make them feel good, welcome, uh, make them feel special so they can come back.
01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:50.079
Yeah.
01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:53.679
And we can have that uh same um repetition of folks.
01:06:53.840 --> 01:06:57.440
And I always say a friend is gonna tell 20 friends uh that didn't like it.
01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:00.320
And if they liked it, they're gonna tell three other friends.
01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:02.239
That's that's maybe that's that's the rule, right?
01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:08.800
Maybe maybe you always tell people the worst, and you always uh say the best for the only three people that you might know.
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.440
I don't think I've ever told a story about how smooth my flight was.
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:15.039
But if I'm tarmaced for four and a half hours, you're gonna hear about it.
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:16.559
You know what I mean?
01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:17.199
Right.