Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. As always, I am your host to Dr. Alexandra E. Hughes, and welcome back to the show. This week's episode has been the or will be the much anticipated, if you will, recording from our 2021 annual conference. There were a lot of emails and DMs and messages and text messages that I received regarding a particular interview that was one of the featured speakers from the conference, and it was a particular session that was titled uncomfortable conversations, a black student conduct officer and their white supervisor.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It was with myself and Dr. Douglas Stoves. A lot of people have been reaching out to hear the recording, and to be quite honest, I think that, unfortunately, the conversation itself is yet again, extremely timely. If you were at the conference, you heard this, and I believe it's actually on the ASCA Tovuti platform, the video recording. However, if you weren't there and you don't have access, then I wanted to make sure that I could put it in an accessible space, because I think it's something that can be shown in how to have conversations.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
If I'm asking people to pause and reflect and being willing to engage in difficult conversations, this was one small attempt of modeling one of many, many ways of how to have these tough conversations with two people from different backgrounds, but have the same goal, the same mission, the same desire, and the same outcome for life and for their students that they work with, but how to have this conversation in an intimate way. I have to take a deep breath. But before we get into that, there's something that needs to be addressed.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
As everyone knows, I am a strong, strong advocate of saying the things that need to be said and having these difficult conversations, and we need to address the fact that last week, six Asian, seven women, and eight people overall lost their lives due to racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and hatred. Anti-Asian violence discrimination and other hateful acts have actually increased, reported 150% in 2020. This statistic makes the events that took place last week in Atlanta, which is my hometown, particularly disgusting. It's cruel. It's unnerving.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Sadly, racist incidents and the oppression of Asian Pacific Islander and Desi American communities are nothing new. What is happening recently just represents additional examples of the racist history of the United States from the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II to insidious and pervasive stereotypes. The thing is this escalation of ongoing violence and trauma to this community increased more than a year ago when politicians in this country wrongly blamed this community for COVID-19.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
To be clear, the systemic and racism and misogyny towards the APIDA community has had a really long history, but it just reached a new level during this pandemic. Everyone knows that I'm a huge advocate of having uncomfortable conversations and difficult dialogues and all of that. I know one of those things wasn't having a conversation, hearing all sides of the story and being willing to engage and doing that. You're right, it is, but let me be clear, this, there's no place for hatred in a conversation.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
A conversation is a process that is reciprocal in nature. It's where people are willing to listen intently, willing to have conversations where they are trying to seek to understand. There is no understanding in violence based on disinformation and racism. As leaders within the Association for Student Conduct Administration, we must, and we will continue to fight for the equity and inclusion within our profession and in our own communities. As educators, we all have a part in changing this world for the better, to ensure that the next generation does not experience these same injustices.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
We must, and we will hold accountable the individuals who perpetrate these injustices, and we must and we will speak up against white supremacy, acts of bigotry and hatred in our communities and on our own individual distinct campuses. We have to challenge the leaders to continue to develop spaces for the work of equity and inclusion. Now, if you would like to speak further about what I've shared today or what I've said, or if you need resources, or even need help with how to start having these conversations, like the one that you were about to hear today, please feel free to reach out. All of the contact information for me and for the podcast is in the show notes. With that, I will leave you with all of my love. Please continue to be safe. I hope to connect with you on the interwebs soon. Thank you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
We're alive. Hello. How are you?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
I'm doing good. How are you?
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I'm good, Dr. Stoves?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yes, Dr. Hughes.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I know, this is so fun. Okay, so let me go ahead and just introduce you for people, because I think they need to understand a little bit of your background and who you are. I'm actually going to read just a small kind of excerpt from your bio, because I want people to kind of know. So, you are Dr. Douglas Stoves and you are senior associate Dean of students at UTRGV, and so you've been here in this particular capacity since 2015, and prior to that, you served the Rio Grande Valley community, because that's where we are at UTRGV, for over 15 years through your roles at the University of Texas Brownsville.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You were the director of residential life, you were the Dean of students. You do lots of many things like right now, and I can attest to that from, I mean, you obviously oversee our office, the office of student rights and responsibilities, the university chess team, the student food pantry, a foster liaison. You do lots of stuff. I can speak to you doing lots of stuff because not only do you do lots of stuff, but you're my current supervisor, and I've been with you for like five years now.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, how was that? That was my bio of you that I remixed on the spot.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Wow, but thank you very much. I do appreciate it. Yeah. I've really enjoyed serving the folks down here. Being here in South Texas working with the students here, and it's been enjoyable the entire time. Every job has its ups and downs, but more ups than downs. Certainly the last five years have been an interesting evolution of ... As we've worked through changes in policy and things like that, it's certainly been interesting.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I feel like the interesting part is because I've been here for five years [crosstalk 00:09:17].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
There's a strong possibility there's a correlation there.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Strong possibility there's a correlation. Well, I think the other reason why I really wanted to talk to you and have this conversation, the reality is this, we have about 30 minutes to chat and to talk. One of the things that we're looking to do at ASCA is really bring forward these large conversations to a big audience of people. As everyone knows, I host our ASCA Viewpoints podcast. Now, I feel like, after the conference, people will probably be like, oh, I didn't even know. Like, I hear her all over the place. But the reality is we have a lot of kind of hard conversations even on the podcast itself. There was a lot that happened last year when you want to talk about uncomfortable conversations that I think that we're trying to figure out essentially how to work through those.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
With that, I think we're all aware, the killing of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, a lot of issues came up last year just around like race, and what does that mean? And what does that look like and how do we navigate through that? For me, it was interesting when I was thinking about, when I was asked to kind of bring this conversation forward, just to kind of get people thinking about it, it was interesting as I sat there and I thought about, what would be a good conversation? How do we have it? How does that work? I realized the best thing to do would really be to just show an authentic relationship between you and I, because you are my supervisor, I am a black woman, in case people didn't know. In case [inaudible 00:10:55], and you're a white man.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I mean, you can't get more, and I think authentic or perfect than this, because this is the real thing. So, I am a black woman who is working on your staff, actually the only black woman. We're also at a Hispanic serving institution, and so, even in our, I think division, I am the, I want to say like our area, I'm the only one. Actually, if I sit there and think about it, in our whole kind of like area. Part of it is like regionally where we're just located, but truthfully, you got me. So, I think that's really why I wanted to bring this conversation forward when I had to figure out like, who I would want to talk to, it was you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Because we have these conversations all of the time, and so that I thought was pretty amazing. That's why you're here.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, I have some questions for you. Are you ready?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay. I'm ready.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It seems as though I just said that I am the black woman that's on your staff, what is it like to have the only black woman on your team in light of the things that happened last year, from your perspective?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, certainly, I mean, I think going back to how you opened this segment, I think it goes back to a genuineness of caring. That happens just as a natural part of the relationship that we've developed over time, certainly I can say the relationship that we established from the very beginning. So, we know that, as we evolve with time, certainly there's going to be some comfort that happens there. I recognize that there's things that are going on in the world, and I depend on asking you some blunt and open questions because I care about what's happening. I can approach the experience that you're having.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
But I certainly want to understand what's the impact and how can I make a change? How can I make things better for you? How can I really examine what's going on from my perspective? Because I have to make it obtainable. The last thing I want to do is assume how it's impacting you and assume this must be how you're feeling. I know that we can have these conversations because we've established the norm that we can have these conversations, and I'm proud to say the conversations go both ways. I have you on my staff, and it's important to me to let you know how much you are valued, how much you are cared for, and how much I want to make sure that you're okay, given what I can't understand.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That's why I think these conversations are so important, and that they have to be genuine. There's no other way about it. It has to be a genuine question. Having you as a black woman on staff is of ... Obviously the work ethic you bring and everything else like that. I mean, that's what I ... But it's also just to help me understand and help me navigate some of those, and then mutually, help you, as you work through and navigate these things that are happening and the impact they're having on you here. And also recognizing that there's a certain sense of isolation too that I want to make sure that we're engaged in those conversations so that you feel comfortable having those conversations, and can express yourself. Because the last thing we want is for there not to be any outlet to have somebody to have a genuine conversation with.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Right. I think part of it goes back to, and one of the things that I was thinking about, even when thinking about our dynamic is the fact that I have been here for five years. I think back to the reality of five years ago to now, obviously, and I'm very fortunate to have ... Obviously we have a good relationship, and I know that not every supervisory relationship has that because there are a lot of dynamics. I think back to five years ago, and I've wondered, I said, if everything that would have happened last year happened when I first got here, I don't necessarily think that I would have been as open or as just trusting with you because I didn't have that dynamic. Actually I can ...
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You know what? Let me take that back. The year that I got here was the year that Philando Castile died, and so actually, I can actually guarantee that now, since I sit back, because I think that it had happened relatively recent to me moving here, or maybe it was some months. It was somewhere around that time. I can't exactly remember, and it was, you weren't the office that day or anything, but I remember waking up that morning. I don't even know if I've told you this, I remember waking up that morning. I remember it was this video of Philando Castile who was killed in his car by a police officer.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I remember there was a little girl in the back seat, and it was the girlfriend of him, and I remember all this happened in the car and she was telling her mom, she was like, it was a little girl, and she was like, it's okay. It's okay, everything's going to be okay. Like, the innocence of her. I remember bawling, and I remember my dad actually called me and I was just bawling. I remember driving to work bawling. I remember just like, oh my goodness, where am I? What am I doing? Kind of all that that's going on.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You weren't on campus. I remember. You specifically were on campus. I remember just getting through that day, probably really closed off. I'm sure, if people in the office think back to it. I don't even know if like ... My eyes were puffy and everything else, but I remember I was relatively new, so I actually can speak to that. And it goes from that's the honest, just feeling .. I was thinking about it, and I said, I don't think I ever told you that, but to go from there and to have that happen and then of course, I think the trust and building of our relationship, which has led me to this past year, I was literally just on Zoom with you like we are now like, look, I'm not here.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I cannot do this. I don't have it within me. I can't do it. And being able to have that open conversation with you, I know is because over the years, we've had that. There have been times where there was some incidents that have happened that had some racial components to it in which you very much sure supported me and had my back, and that I think spoke wonders. Then the fact that you have allowed me to engage in these conversations and also do this work in our office, I think was just big.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It's something that I'm obviously passionate about and you've always given me the space to be able to do that. Then, just like you said, the learning back and forth from one another, I think has been incredibly helpful.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Right. It would be a mistake to think that it's only a one-way street. You know what I mean? This is not just me giving you space. You also give me space. I can think back of a few epiphanies that we've had over time, where I was like, Alex, I need to talk to you about this, as we've talked about privilege, and as we've talked about ... I can remember a very serious conversation that lasted hours that we were talking about, why can't white people talk about race? There's some of that that is just ... It's not a matter of just me granting space. It's the mutual fact that you're willing to work with me and my ignorance and coming to grips with where I'm situated in the world, to understand that this is really more of a symbiosis than it is anything else like that.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
It's that continually learning and perspective gaining, and as the world continues to evolve and awareness has become more present, of really understanding where that is. It's one of those that are really ... It has to come from a neutral place and it has to be genuine because if it's not genuine, we're going to ... I've been witness to that too, with that moment where it's like, wow, that we can really tell this is just window dressing. Again, I appreciate that, because it's one of those things that I understand there's things I have to come to terms and grips with too as we're engaged in this work to really gain perspective.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Okay. So, here's a question because you brought up privilege, and I think this is a good thing. What is it like to constantly hear from everyone in the news and the media since last year, this term, what is it like to constantly hear that you're white privileged?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, I mean, when you hear words like privilege, when you hear words like white supremacy, right? You automatically go to this place of white hood, all this other stuff like that. That's not me. That's not me. I can argue strenuously that, that's not me, but then understanding what the perspective of that, of what it means. Just the fact that different sense of comfort when walking into a room, just not being concerned at all that I'm going to be judged based on the color of my skin exclusively. You know what I mean? And what do I bring to the table? So, some of those things that, and I'm citing the things just ... And recall of the questions that we, or the conversations that we've had.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Part of it is understanding, so it puts me on the defensive, so then asking myself the question, well, why am I defensive about it? What about it is it? It's this, that whole idea of there's, when we look at it from a sense of just a simple dichotomy, you know what I mean? That now it becomes a good or bad conversation versus saying, okay, look, where does this mean I'm situated in the world conversation? That's part of where I've appreciated your patience as we've been working through some of those issues on my behalf, you becoming my therapist, of ... But just-
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
[crosstalk 00:23:00] problem.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
So, but it-
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You didn't [crosstalk 00:23:08] five years.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yeah. It's one of those things that it's ... I understand it's part of the evolution, part of my realization and coming to terms with, and really trying to ... Anytime I run into a conflict or things like that, I automatically reflect on, what role did I play in developing this? Part of that is coming to terms with that. This is my role within that, and how do I then change that and change that trajectory so that I don't further that cause? It's one of those things, it can be difficult, and it can ... I would be lying to say that it hasn't put me on my heels on more than one occasion, but then, at the same time, it is having the discussions, having the conversation, coming to terms with it, asking you the question outright.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That's been one of the things that I understand that comes with creating a trusting relationship to that willingness to be born honorable. And being okay with saying, I'm not understanding this, or this is my realization. Again, I can think of some of the conversations that we've had, where you're just like, there you go. It's one of those that ... I also understand, I'm not done yet, but then again, understanding I do have privilege, so how do I leverage that in furtherance of examining this work?
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Yeah, it's interesting, since we talked about that, and this literally just came out. I believe it was representative Phillips, and so don't like ... No one quote me wrong if I'm ... Okay, before people get on me, but I'm pretty sure it was representative Phillips, and this was in Congress, and he is a white man who basically came out, and it's all over, this video went viral, and he said that he did not truly understand the concept of privilege until the situation at the Capitol, not too long ago.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Basically what he said was, and I think everyone should look this up if you haven't seen it, he was basically giving his speech, or whatever it was, I guess a couple of days ago, and made a comment about how, when that whole situation happened, he, the first thing he thought was, everyone let's just go over to the Republican chambers, because if we go over there, then everyone's going to assume that we're most likely senators or whatever on the Republican side, and so these people coming in won't come after us and we'll be safe. We'll just blend in.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
He said, it was in that moment that I recognized that, for my colleagues of color, they could not just blend in, whereas I could go over and I would be safe because I am a white man. He actually says that, he said," I never understood that until like that space or that moment when I realized that they could not blend in, and so now what do you do?" It's interesting to me, and he actually talked about it kind of the same thing. He's like, it wasn't until that ... Like, I understood it, but it wasn't until that moment. Again, this example of how you can choose a particular identity in a particular space, whereas some of his colleagues couldn't.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I thought that was just really relevant and interesting when it comes to even what you just said. Okay, so you had a question for me that I know you want it to ask me, and so I was like, all right, [crosstalk 00:26:46] put me on the spot. This is going to be an uncomfortable conversation. Let's do it. So, ask me your question.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay. As you know, our office receives a wide variety of complaints, concerns violations of policy, things that we will routinely have to investigate and look into. We know one of the areas that will come up, it has come up, will come up, and continue to come up, are cases dealing with race. It's one of those that, as I'm looking, as we get these cases in, I have to figure out who gets what assignment and who's going to be the primary investigator on a case and things of that sort. As a white supervisor, how do I ask you to take on a case dealing with race without it appearing to be an insult or a cast type of thing? Like the conversation we were just having earlier, that it makes it seem as though, based exclusively on the fact that you're a black woman that's why you must know about race.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
No, I think that, that's good. I think there's a lot, right? Of course, we talk about ... Neither one of us can speak for everyone. You can't speak for all white people. I can't speak for all black people. I think that's important, but what I do know, and I think part of it, the fact that you even think about that, I think is really the honest answer. The fact that you even question and say, look, how do I make sure that I'm not just giving this to you because you're black and this is about race, and the fact that I am respecting you, I think honestly, is the answer itself.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
The reality is I have a job to do. You've hired me as the assistant director of student rights and responsibilities. My job in that role, based off of all the cases that come in during that are a particular type, student conduct, those types of cases, it is my responsibility as per my job description to meet with those students, adjudicate those cases, etc. I think that first part, like the honest answer. It's my job to do it. Now, the next part comes from, I think, what you said earlier was a place of genuine caring.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
One, you also know that, as a black woman, I actually love doing this work. I've talked to you about this, even when you don't want to talk about it. Everyone in my life gets to hear me talk about diversity and equity and inclusion and what that means, and gender, and this, and just everything else. One is the fact that I actually enjoy doing this. I talk about it. I speak about it, I teach about it, I present about it. So, I think that's kind of where in one place, in our relationship, it works out, because it's something that I love and I'm passionate about doing.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I do know, and I've talked about this before, just because somebody is black or of any identity or marginalization doesn't mean that they have the capacity to teach about it and do it in the way that I do. I think that's the first part to understand about that particular individual. There are people who are like, I live this and I don't have ... This is not my passion. This is not what I love talking about. This is not any of that. I think it's important to just recognize that. You just happen to get me, and I'm like, oh, let's go. Let's do this.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I think part of it is understanding my role. I think the next part of it is literally you doing what you just said, and as cases come in, one of the things that I appreciate about you is you will, a lot of times, like, for example, if it's a complaint and you handle those, you're already on top of it, you handle the complaints and you're like, oh yeah, I did it. You didn't have to do it. If it's a student conduct case and it's coming to me, I appreciate the fact that you, the same way you talk to me about any case, you talk to me about those cases as well.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Then you even checked in with me and asked me, and genuinely just asked me, do you want to do this? Are you okay with doing it? How does it impact you? I think also, one of the things that's helped with our relationship and I can speak to is the fact that, right after certain incidents have happened and we've gotten some pretty egregious things that have come into our office, I've had the space and I'm very lucky, and I know not everyone has this, to literally go get on zoom with you, like I am right now, and say, so I cannot do this. It will not be a productive conversation with that student.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You need to take it. I need you to give it to somebody else or give me time. We're here to teach people and I'm really good at doing that, but this conversation isn't going to be productive. I think that's really where it comes down to, listening to the person on your team to say, to really assess if they can really handle it or if they can't. If it's only one of you in the office or two of you in the office, then it's harder. We have a team of amazing people and professionals that I'm very fortunate that we work with and there's a lot of us.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, with that, that helps the fact that, if there's something that I can't handle, someone else can handle it, and then if there's something they can't handle, I can handle it too. I think, to answer your question, it's the fact that you just think about it, and you're willing to think about it and engage in it, that I think would go so much further and so many instances of colleagues that I've talked to in the field who don't have a supervisor that's even willing to engage them in this uncomfortable conversation.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Because the reality is, it's there, and we're watching to see how our supervisors respond. We're watching to see if you just act like it's any other day. You know what I mean? That really is we are, whether we feel that we're comfortable enough saying it or not, we do. Our level of knowing what that looks like, our safety within an office is really based upon how we're watching the people around us. I think that speaks to a lot of different marginalizations, privileges, identities, not just race in situations like this.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
That's my really long answer, but I think that, that creative ... I mean, that kind of encompasses it when we're looking at it. Yeah, so how did that go? How did you ... Does that answer your question?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That does, and actually I appreciate that from the standpoint again, I know that, in our office, we go through ... Part of it is recognizing that more to really serve our students well, I have to make sure that the folks who are adjudicating those cases and investigating those cases are in a good place to do that, because then just like you mentioned, it ends up not being of any value to either side of that conversation and recognizing that even during ... You might be okay at the outset, but as you're going through the case, there may be a change that causes that to happen. So, it really is about optimizing it.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
I wouldn't even say it's really protecting people. It's more from a standpoint of respecting the fact that there's going to be those moments in time where you're just like, you know what? I can't carry this right now, and that's okay that you can't, and just trying to check in, and you do the same thing with our team as well, and understanding as you're directing those cases that come to your attention and things like that. Making sure it's going to the staff member that has the capacity to deal with it and work with those students at that particular time.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Because we know that this work is hard and we have to constantly monitor to make sure that we're supporting our staff and in many different ways.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It's hard. I think I have one last question for you, [crosstalk 00:35:24].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
But I think I just want to ask it. How have you either improved or changed the way that you've showed up for me when there is more news every day, of another, whether it's a killing of a black person? I don't know. How have you done it for me? Because I think that would give people some ideas.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Right. Well again, it has to come from a point of genuineness. It can't be something that is just surface mounted. I actually have to care about you as a person and care about how you are doing and navigating what's in the news. I also know that I have a lot to learn, and I'm also continuing to learn as well and trying to understand perspective. It is actually continuing to learn about it and continuing to learn what the impact is, not just of the news, but the fact that, why is this ... I know I've asked myself several times, how can we in 2021 or how can we in 2020 still be doing the exact same thing, even though we know it's an issue? Part of it is trying to change my perspective and change my view, understanding that there's been ... That where I'm grounded in my views of the world.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Part of it is just that is that evolution. I think it is really having the genuine conversations with you, having the willingness to be equally vulnerable, because I'd like to stand up and say, oh, I'm going to be strong for you. But I'm trying to come to terms with it too. Sometimes it's falling against each other to create the understanding of how do I need to when do I need to step in front, when do I need to stand behind? When do I need to stand shoulder to shoulder? It's really trying to understand that perspective to say, this is the moment in which I need to stand in front and take the hits and let you have the space to come to terms with what's going on.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Here's the way I can fight and using my privilege and position to improve this particular viewpoint or this policy at the institution. When do I just say, turn you loose? It's one of those things that it really is ... I depend a lot on what you say, where you say you are at that moment, because I understand that, that is not a fixed place. I know of several conversations that we've had in this past year, where I'm finding myself wishing I could do more for you, but understanding that you have to come to terms with what you come to terms with, and I can just be there to let you know that it's okay what's happening and what's going on, and where can I then stand that is going to be of support and help to you.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
And not preach at you, not force a view, not do any of that. Just say, okay, this is your time for you to repair, rejuvenate, come to terms, and then you can tell me how I can best position myself to help you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Oh, that was so good. Okay. Well, we only have like 30 minutes, so I want to say thank you more than anything. Thank you for having this conversation in a very public way. I know this was like a big thing, but I think it's important for people to see that this right here is a real thing that happens that we're all learning. None of us are perfect. We're all trying to figure this out, and we all have like, hopefully, the intentions of making sure that we can create spaces in which these conversations and these uncomfortable conversations that are very important can happen and can occur.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, thank you for coming on here. I don't know if you really had a choice because I was like, we have to do [crosstalk 00:40:11]. Thank you. I appreciate you very much because I want to give space to that, because even this conversation, I know for a lot of people, probably would have been like, oh my God, I can't do this. And you did, and you never shy away from it, and so thank you, and I want to publicly thank you for that.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, and I thank you for your willingness to continue to engage and educate me. I understand that the conversation equally is not easy, and so I appreciate that and your willingness to be open to hear me and be there for me as much as I am for you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Well, with that, we will end it here for sake of time and the conference, and now we have another session to get into. With that, I will end it there. If anyone wants to reach out to you, can I give them, not your personal, your professional email? [crosstalk 00:41:16].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Absolutely.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Our university, it's douglas.stoves@utrgv.edu. So, if anyone was like, hey, I need to check in with you to see how it is that you were able to have this conversation with your [inaudible 00:41:28] never know. So, we're here to learn. I love it. With that, we'll end it. Just thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
No, thank you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
This episode was produced, edited, and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com, or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us, we talk back.
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast. As always, I am your host to Dr. Alexandra E. Hughes, and welcome back to the show. This week's episode has been the or will be the much anticipated, if you will, recording from our 2021 annual conference. There were a lot of emails and DMs and messages and text messages that I received regarding a particular interview that was one of the featured speakers from the conference, and it was a particular session that was titled uncomfortable conversations, a black student conduct officer and their white supervisor.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It was with myself and Dr. Douglas Stoves. A lot of people have been reaching out to hear the recording, and to be quite honest, I think that, unfortunately, the conversation itself is yet again, extremely timely. If you were at the conference, you heard this, and I believe it's actually on the ASCA Tovuti platform, the video recording. However, if you weren't there and you don't have access, then I wanted to make sure that I could put it in an accessible space, because I think it's something that can be shown in how to have conversations.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
If I'm asking people to pause and reflect and being willing to engage in difficult conversations, this was one small attempt of modeling one of many, many ways of how to have these tough conversations with two people from different backgrounds, but have the same goal, the same mission, the same desire, and the same outcome for life and for their students that they work with, but how to have this conversation in an intimate way. I have to take a deep breath. But before we get into that, there's something that needs to be addressed.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
As everyone knows, I am a strong, strong advocate of saying the things that need to be said and having these difficult conversations, and we need to address the fact that last week, six Asian, seven women, and eight people overall lost their lives due to racism, xenophobia, misogyny, and hatred. Anti-Asian violence discrimination and other hateful acts have actually increased, reported 150% in 2020. This statistic makes the events that took place last week in Atlanta, which is my hometown, particularly disgusting. It's cruel. It's unnerving.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Sadly, racist incidents and the oppression of Asian Pacific Islander and Desi American communities are nothing new. What is happening recently just represents additional examples of the racist history of the United States from the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II to insidious and pervasive stereotypes. The thing is this escalation of ongoing violence and trauma to this community increased more than a year ago when politicians in this country wrongly blamed this community for COVID-19.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
To be clear, the systemic and racism and misogyny towards the APIDA community has had a really long history, but it just reached a new level during this pandemic. Everyone knows that I'm a huge advocate of having uncomfortable conversations and difficult dialogues and all of that. I know one of those things wasn't having a conversation, hearing all sides of the story and being willing to engage and doing that. You're right, it is, but let me be clear, this, there's no place for hatred in a conversation.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
A conversation is a process that is reciprocal in nature. It's where people are willing to listen intently, willing to have conversations where they are trying to seek to understand. There is no understanding in violence based on disinformation and racism. As leaders within the Association for Student Conduct Administration, we must, and we will continue to fight for the equity and inclusion within our profession and in our own communities. As educators, we all have a part in changing this world for the better, to ensure that the next generation does not experience these same injustices.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
We must, and we will hold accountable the individuals who perpetrate these injustices, and we must and we will speak up against white supremacy, acts of bigotry and hatred in our communities and on our own individual distinct campuses. We have to challenge the leaders to continue to develop spaces for the work of equity and inclusion. Now, if you would like to speak further about what I've shared today or what I've said, or if you need resources, or even need help with how to start having these conversations, like the one that you were about to hear today, please feel free to reach out. All of the contact information for me and for the podcast is in the show notes. With that, I will leave you with all of my love. Please continue to be safe. I hope to connect with you on the interwebs soon. Thank you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
We're alive. Hello. How are you?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
I'm doing good. How are you?
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I'm good, Dr. Stoves?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yes, Dr. Hughes.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I know, this is so fun. Okay, so let me go ahead and just introduce you for people, because I think they need to understand a little bit of your background and who you are. I'm actually going to read just a small kind of excerpt from your bio, because I want people to kind of know. So, you are Dr. Douglas Stoves and you are senior associate Dean of students at UTRGV, and so you've been here in this particular capacity since 2015, and prior to that, you served the Rio Grande Valley community, because that's where we are at UTRGV, for over 15 years through your roles at the University of Texas Brownsville.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You were the director of residential life, you were the Dean of students. You do lots of many things like right now, and I can attest to that from, I mean, you obviously oversee our office, the office of student rights and responsibilities, the university chess team, the student food pantry, a foster liaison. You do lots of stuff. I can speak to you doing lots of stuff because not only do you do lots of stuff, but you're my current supervisor, and I've been with you for like five years now.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, how was that? That was my bio of you that I remixed on the spot.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Wow, but thank you very much. I do appreciate it. Yeah. I've really enjoyed serving the folks down here. Being here in South Texas working with the students here, and it's been enjoyable the entire time. Every job has its ups and downs, but more ups than downs. Certainly the last five years have been an interesting evolution of ... As we've worked through changes in policy and things like that, it's certainly been interesting.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I feel like the interesting part is because I've been here for five years [crosstalk 00:09:17].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
There's a strong possibility there's a correlation there.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Strong possibility there's a correlation. Well, I think the other reason why I really wanted to talk to you and have this conversation, the reality is this, we have about 30 minutes to chat and to talk. One of the things that we're looking to do at ASCA is really bring forward these large conversations to a big audience of people. As everyone knows, I host our ASCA Viewpoints podcast. Now, I feel like, after the conference, people will probably be like, oh, I didn't even know. Like, I hear her all over the place. But the reality is we have a lot of kind of hard conversations even on the podcast itself. There was a lot that happened last year when you want to talk about uncomfortable conversations that I think that we're trying to figure out essentially how to work through those.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
With that, I think we're all aware, the killing of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, a lot of issues came up last year just around like race, and what does that mean? And what does that look like and how do we navigate through that? For me, it was interesting when I was thinking about, when I was asked to kind of bring this conversation forward, just to kind of get people thinking about it, it was interesting as I sat there and I thought about, what would be a good conversation? How do we have it? How does that work? I realized the best thing to do would really be to just show an authentic relationship between you and I, because you are my supervisor, I am a black woman, in case people didn't know. In case [inaudible 00:10:55], and you're a white man.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I mean, you can't get more, and I think authentic or perfect than this, because this is the real thing. So, I am a black woman who is working on your staff, actually the only black woman. We're also at a Hispanic serving institution, and so, even in our, I think division, I am the, I want to say like our area, I'm the only one. Actually, if I sit there and think about it, in our whole kind of like area. Part of it is like regionally where we're just located, but truthfully, you got me. So, I think that's really why I wanted to bring this conversation forward when I had to figure out like, who I would want to talk to, it was you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Because we have these conversations all of the time, and so that I thought was pretty amazing. That's why you're here.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, I have some questions for you. Are you ready?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay. I'm ready.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It seems as though I just said that I am the black woman that's on your staff, what is it like to have the only black woman on your team in light of the things that happened last year, from your perspective?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, certainly, I mean, I think going back to how you opened this segment, I think it goes back to a genuineness of caring. That happens just as a natural part of the relationship that we've developed over time, certainly I can say the relationship that we established from the very beginning. So, we know that, as we evolve with time, certainly there's going to be some comfort that happens there. I recognize that there's things that are going on in the world, and I depend on asking you some blunt and open questions because I care about what's happening. I can approach the experience that you're having.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
But I certainly want to understand what's the impact and how can I make a change? How can I make things better for you? How can I really examine what's going on from my perspective? Because I have to make it obtainable. The last thing I want to do is assume how it's impacting you and assume this must be how you're feeling. I know that we can have these conversations because we've established the norm that we can have these conversations, and I'm proud to say the conversations go both ways. I have you on my staff, and it's important to me to let you know how much you are valued, how much you are cared for, and how much I want to make sure that you're okay, given what I can't understand.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That's why I think these conversations are so important, and that they have to be genuine. There's no other way about it. It has to be a genuine question. Having you as a black woman on staff is of ... Obviously the work ethic you bring and everything else like that. I mean, that's what I ... But it's also just to help me understand and help me navigate some of those, and then mutually, help you, as you work through and navigate these things that are happening and the impact they're having on you here. And also recognizing that there's a certain sense of isolation too that I want to make sure that we're engaged in those conversations so that you feel comfortable having those conversations, and can express yourself. Because the last thing we want is for there not to be any outlet to have somebody to have a genuine conversation with.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Right. I think part of it goes back to, and one of the things that I was thinking about, even when thinking about our dynamic is the fact that I have been here for five years. I think back to the reality of five years ago to now, obviously, and I'm very fortunate to have ... Obviously we have a good relationship, and I know that not every supervisory relationship has that because there are a lot of dynamics. I think back to five years ago, and I've wondered, I said, if everything that would have happened last year happened when I first got here, I don't necessarily think that I would have been as open or as just trusting with you because I didn't have that dynamic. Actually I can ...
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You know what? Let me take that back. The year that I got here was the year that Philando Castile died, and so actually, I can actually guarantee that now, since I sit back, because I think that it had happened relatively recent to me moving here, or maybe it was some months. It was somewhere around that time. I can't exactly remember, and it was, you weren't the office that day or anything, but I remember waking up that morning. I don't even know if I've told you this, I remember waking up that morning. I remember it was this video of Philando Castile who was killed in his car by a police officer.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I remember there was a little girl in the back seat, and it was the girlfriend of him, and I remember all this happened in the car and she was telling her mom, she was like, it was a little girl, and she was like, it's okay. It's okay, everything's going to be okay. Like, the innocence of her. I remember bawling, and I remember my dad actually called me and I was just bawling. I remember driving to work bawling. I remember just like, oh my goodness, where am I? What am I doing? Kind of all that that's going on.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You weren't on campus. I remember. You specifically were on campus. I remember just getting through that day, probably really closed off. I'm sure, if people in the office think back to it. I don't even know if like ... My eyes were puffy and everything else, but I remember I was relatively new, so I actually can speak to that. And it goes from that's the honest, just feeling .. I was thinking about it, and I said, I don't think I ever told you that, but to go from there and to have that happen and then of course, I think the trust and building of our relationship, which has led me to this past year, I was literally just on Zoom with you like we are now like, look, I'm not here.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I cannot do this. I don't have it within me. I can't do it. And being able to have that open conversation with you, I know is because over the years, we've had that. There have been times where there was some incidents that have happened that had some racial components to it in which you very much sure supported me and had my back, and that I think spoke wonders. Then the fact that you have allowed me to engage in these conversations and also do this work in our office, I think was just big.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It's something that I'm obviously passionate about and you've always given me the space to be able to do that. Then, just like you said, the learning back and forth from one another, I think has been incredibly helpful.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Right. It would be a mistake to think that it's only a one-way street. You know what I mean? This is not just me giving you space. You also give me space. I can think back of a few epiphanies that we've had over time, where I was like, Alex, I need to talk to you about this, as we've talked about privilege, and as we've talked about ... I can remember a very serious conversation that lasted hours that we were talking about, why can't white people talk about race? There's some of that that is just ... It's not a matter of just me granting space. It's the mutual fact that you're willing to work with me and my ignorance and coming to grips with where I'm situated in the world, to understand that this is really more of a symbiosis than it is anything else like that.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
It's that continually learning and perspective gaining, and as the world continues to evolve and awareness has become more present, of really understanding where that is. It's one of those that are really ... It has to come from a neutral place and it has to be genuine because if it's not genuine, we're going to ... I've been witness to that too, with that moment where it's like, wow, that we can really tell this is just window dressing. Again, I appreciate that, because it's one of those things that I understand there's things I have to come to terms and grips with too as we're engaged in this work to really gain perspective.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Okay. So, here's a question because you brought up privilege, and I think this is a good thing. What is it like to constantly hear from everyone in the news and the media since last year, this term, what is it like to constantly hear that you're white privileged?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, I mean, when you hear words like privilege, when you hear words like white supremacy, right? You automatically go to this place of white hood, all this other stuff like that. That's not me. That's not me. I can argue strenuously that, that's not me, but then understanding what the perspective of that, of what it means. Just the fact that different sense of comfort when walking into a room, just not being concerned at all that I'm going to be judged based on the color of my skin exclusively. You know what I mean? And what do I bring to the table? So, some of those things that, and I'm citing the things just ... And recall of the questions that we, or the conversations that we've had.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Part of it is understanding, so it puts me on the defensive, so then asking myself the question, well, why am I defensive about it? What about it is it? It's this, that whole idea of there's, when we look at it from a sense of just a simple dichotomy, you know what I mean? That now it becomes a good or bad conversation versus saying, okay, look, where does this mean I'm situated in the world conversation? That's part of where I've appreciated your patience as we've been working through some of those issues on my behalf, you becoming my therapist, of ... But just-
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
[crosstalk 00:23:00] problem.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
So, but it-
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You didn't [crosstalk 00:23:08] five years.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Yeah. It's one of those things that it's ... I understand it's part of the evolution, part of my realization and coming to terms with, and really trying to ... Anytime I run into a conflict or things like that, I automatically reflect on, what role did I play in developing this? Part of that is coming to terms with that. This is my role within that, and how do I then change that and change that trajectory so that I don't further that cause? It's one of those things, it can be difficult, and it can ... I would be lying to say that it hasn't put me on my heels on more than one occasion, but then, at the same time, it is having the discussions, having the conversation, coming to terms with it, asking you the question outright.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That's been one of the things that I understand that comes with creating a trusting relationship to that willingness to be born honorable. And being okay with saying, I'm not understanding this, or this is my realization. Again, I can think of some of the conversations that we've had, where you're just like, there you go. It's one of those that ... I also understand, I'm not done yet, but then again, understanding I do have privilege, so how do I leverage that in furtherance of examining this work?
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Yeah, it's interesting, since we talked about that, and this literally just came out. I believe it was representative Phillips, and so don't like ... No one quote me wrong if I'm ... Okay, before people get on me, but I'm pretty sure it was representative Phillips, and this was in Congress, and he is a white man who basically came out, and it's all over, this video went viral, and he said that he did not truly understand the concept of privilege until the situation at the Capitol, not too long ago.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Basically what he said was, and I think everyone should look this up if you haven't seen it, he was basically giving his speech, or whatever it was, I guess a couple of days ago, and made a comment about how, when that whole situation happened, he, the first thing he thought was, everyone let's just go over to the Republican chambers, because if we go over there, then everyone's going to assume that we're most likely senators or whatever on the Republican side, and so these people coming in won't come after us and we'll be safe. We'll just blend in.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
He said, it was in that moment that I recognized that, for my colleagues of color, they could not just blend in, whereas I could go over and I would be safe because I am a white man. He actually says that, he said," I never understood that until like that space or that moment when I realized that they could not blend in, and so now what do you do?" It's interesting to me, and he actually talked about it kind of the same thing. He's like, it wasn't until that ... Like, I understood it, but it wasn't until that moment. Again, this example of how you can choose a particular identity in a particular space, whereas some of his colleagues couldn't.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I thought that was just really relevant and interesting when it comes to even what you just said. Okay, so you had a question for me that I know you want it to ask me, and so I was like, all right, [crosstalk 00:26:46] put me on the spot. This is going to be an uncomfortable conversation. Let's do it. So, ask me your question.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay. As you know, our office receives a wide variety of complaints, concerns violations of policy, things that we will routinely have to investigate and look into. We know one of the areas that will come up, it has come up, will come up, and continue to come up, are cases dealing with race. It's one of those that, as I'm looking, as we get these cases in, I have to figure out who gets what assignment and who's going to be the primary investigator on a case and things of that sort. As a white supervisor, how do I ask you to take on a case dealing with race without it appearing to be an insult or a cast type of thing? Like the conversation we were just having earlier, that it makes it seem as though, based exclusively on the fact that you're a black woman that's why you must know about race.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
No, I think that, that's good. I think there's a lot, right? Of course, we talk about ... Neither one of us can speak for everyone. You can't speak for all white people. I can't speak for all black people. I think that's important, but what I do know, and I think part of it, the fact that you even think about that, I think is really the honest answer. The fact that you even question and say, look, how do I make sure that I'm not just giving this to you because you're black and this is about race, and the fact that I am respecting you, I think honestly, is the answer itself.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
The reality is I have a job to do. You've hired me as the assistant director of student rights and responsibilities. My job in that role, based off of all the cases that come in during that are a particular type, student conduct, those types of cases, it is my responsibility as per my job description to meet with those students, adjudicate those cases, etc. I think that first part, like the honest answer. It's my job to do it. Now, the next part comes from, I think, what you said earlier was a place of genuine caring.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
One, you also know that, as a black woman, I actually love doing this work. I've talked to you about this, even when you don't want to talk about it. Everyone in my life gets to hear me talk about diversity and equity and inclusion and what that means, and gender, and this, and just everything else. One is the fact that I actually enjoy doing this. I talk about it. I speak about it, I teach about it, I present about it. So, I think that's kind of where in one place, in our relationship, it works out, because it's something that I love and I'm passionate about doing.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I do know, and I've talked about this before, just because somebody is black or of any identity or marginalization doesn't mean that they have the capacity to teach about it and do it in the way that I do. I think that's the first part to understand about that particular individual. There are people who are like, I live this and I don't have ... This is not my passion. This is not what I love talking about. This is not any of that. I think it's important to just recognize that. You just happen to get me, and I'm like, oh, let's go. Let's do this.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
I think part of it is understanding my role. I think the next part of it is literally you doing what you just said, and as cases come in, one of the things that I appreciate about you is you will, a lot of times, like, for example, if it's a complaint and you handle those, you're already on top of it, you handle the complaints and you're like, oh yeah, I did it. You didn't have to do it. If it's a student conduct case and it's coming to me, I appreciate the fact that you, the same way you talk to me about any case, you talk to me about those cases as well.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Then you even checked in with me and asked me, and genuinely just asked me, do you want to do this? Are you okay with doing it? How does it impact you? I think also, one of the things that's helped with our relationship and I can speak to is the fact that, right after certain incidents have happened and we've gotten some pretty egregious things that have come into our office, I've had the space and I'm very lucky, and I know not everyone has this, to literally go get on zoom with you, like I am right now, and say, so I cannot do this. It will not be a productive conversation with that student.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
You need to take it. I need you to give it to somebody else or give me time. We're here to teach people and I'm really good at doing that, but this conversation isn't going to be productive. I think that's really where it comes down to, listening to the person on your team to say, to really assess if they can really handle it or if they can't. If it's only one of you in the office or two of you in the office, then it's harder. We have a team of amazing people and professionals that I'm very fortunate that we work with and there's a lot of us.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, with that, that helps the fact that, if there's something that I can't handle, someone else can handle it, and then if there's something they can't handle, I can handle it too. I think, to answer your question, it's the fact that you just think about it, and you're willing to think about it and engage in it, that I think would go so much further and so many instances of colleagues that I've talked to in the field who don't have a supervisor that's even willing to engage them in this uncomfortable conversation.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Because the reality is, it's there, and we're watching to see how our supervisors respond. We're watching to see if you just act like it's any other day. You know what I mean? That really is we are, whether we feel that we're comfortable enough saying it or not, we do. Our level of knowing what that looks like, our safety within an office is really based upon how we're watching the people around us. I think that speaks to a lot of different marginalizations, privileges, identities, not just race in situations like this.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
That's my really long answer, but I think that, that creative ... I mean, that kind of encompasses it when we're looking at it. Yeah, so how did that go? How did you ... Does that answer your question?
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
That does, and actually I appreciate that from the standpoint again, I know that, in our office, we go through ... Part of it is recognizing that more to really serve our students well, I have to make sure that the folks who are adjudicating those cases and investigating those cases are in a good place to do that, because then just like you mentioned, it ends up not being of any value to either side of that conversation and recognizing that even during ... You might be okay at the outset, but as you're going through the case, there may be a change that causes that to happen. So, it really is about optimizing it.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
I wouldn't even say it's really protecting people. It's more from a standpoint of respecting the fact that there's going to be those moments in time where you're just like, you know what? I can't carry this right now, and that's okay that you can't, and just trying to check in, and you do the same thing with our team as well, and understanding as you're directing those cases that come to your attention and things like that. Making sure it's going to the staff member that has the capacity to deal with it and work with those students at that particular time.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Because we know that this work is hard and we have to constantly monitor to make sure that we're supporting our staff and in many different ways.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
It's hard. I think I have one last question for you, [crosstalk 00:35:24].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Okay.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
But I think I just want to ask it. How have you either improved or changed the way that you've showed up for me when there is more news every day, of another, whether it's a killing of a black person? I don't know. How have you done it for me? Because I think that would give people some ideas.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Right. Well again, it has to come from a point of genuineness. It can't be something that is just surface mounted. I actually have to care about you as a person and care about how you are doing and navigating what's in the news. I also know that I have a lot to learn, and I'm also continuing to learn as well and trying to understand perspective. It is actually continuing to learn about it and continuing to learn what the impact is, not just of the news, but the fact that, why is this ... I know I've asked myself several times, how can we in 2021 or how can we in 2020 still be doing the exact same thing, even though we know it's an issue? Part of it is trying to change my perspective and change my view, understanding that there's been ... That where I'm grounded in my views of the world.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Part of it is just that is that evolution. I think it is really having the genuine conversations with you, having the willingness to be equally vulnerable, because I'd like to stand up and say, oh, I'm going to be strong for you. But I'm trying to come to terms with it too. Sometimes it's falling against each other to create the understanding of how do I need to when do I need to step in front, when do I need to stand behind? When do I need to stand shoulder to shoulder? It's really trying to understand that perspective to say, this is the moment in which I need to stand in front and take the hits and let you have the space to come to terms with what's going on.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Here's the way I can fight and using my privilege and position to improve this particular viewpoint or this policy at the institution. When do I just say, turn you loose? It's one of those things that it really is ... I depend a lot on what you say, where you say you are at that moment, because I understand that, that is not a fixed place. I know of several conversations that we've had in this past year, where I'm finding myself wishing I could do more for you, but understanding that you have to come to terms with what you come to terms with, and I can just be there to let you know that it's okay what's happening and what's going on, and where can I then stand that is going to be of support and help to you.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
And not preach at you, not force a view, not do any of that. Just say, okay, this is your time for you to repair, rejuvenate, come to terms, and then you can tell me how I can best position myself to help you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Oh, that was so good. Okay. Well, we only have like 30 minutes, so I want to say thank you more than anything. Thank you for having this conversation in a very public way. I know this was like a big thing, but I think it's important for people to see that this right here is a real thing that happens that we're all learning. None of us are perfect. We're all trying to figure this out, and we all have like, hopefully, the intentions of making sure that we can create spaces in which these conversations and these uncomfortable conversations that are very important can happen and can occur.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
So, thank you for coming on here. I don't know if you really had a choice because I was like, we have to do [crosstalk 00:40:11]. Thank you. I appreciate you very much because I want to give space to that, because even this conversation, I know for a lot of people, probably would have been like, oh my God, I can't do this. And you did, and you never shy away from it, and so thank you, and I want to publicly thank you for that.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Well, and I thank you for your willingness to continue to engage and educate me. I understand that the conversation equally is not easy, and so I appreciate that and your willingness to be open to hear me and be there for me as much as I am for you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Well, with that, we will end it here for sake of time and the conference, and now we have another session to get into. With that, I will end it there. If anyone wants to reach out to you, can I give them, not your personal, your professional email? [crosstalk 00:41:16].
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
Absolutely.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
Our university, it's douglas.stoves@utrgv.edu. So, if anyone was like, hey, I need to check in with you to see how it is that you were able to have this conversation with your [inaudible 00:41:28] never know. So, we're here to learn. I love it. With that, we'll end it. Just thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Douglas Stoves:
No, thank you.
Dr. Alexandra Hughes:
This episode was produced, edited, and hosted by Alexandra Hughes. That's me. If you're enjoying the podcast, we ask that you like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others discover us and become more visible to our podcasting community. If you have suggestions for future guests or would like to be featured on the podcast yourself, feel free to reach out to us by email at ascapodcast@gmail.com, or on Twitter @ascapodcast. If you'd like to connect with me on Twitter, you can find me @alexandrasview. Talk to us, we talk back.
