How Do You Know When It’s Time to Blow Up Your Book?

Have you ever looked at a project you’ve poured years of your life into and realized… it’s fine? Not catastrophic. Not terrible. Just fine.

No one wants to read a book that’s fine — and I am certain you don’t want to write one.

The first step in making sure you do better than fine is to catch yourself when you know you’ve hit a wall — which is way easier said than done.

We get so used to plowing ahead, getting the words down, prioritizing FINISHING that we often forget to stop and make sure we are writing what we really want to be writing. Think of that pause like checking in with your gut or your heart: do you love this?

Because if you don’t love it, your readers aren’t going to love it, either.

In this Write Big episode, KJ and I sit down for an honest, behind-the-scenes look at what happens when you hit a wall—and decide to set off a stick of dynamite instead of trying to climb over it. Both of us recently threw out huge portions of our current projects (my Write Big book, and KJ’s novel) to start fresh from page zero.

I share the story of my 12-hour wrestling match with ChatGPT over the books subtitle (yeah — 12 hours on the subtitle), the “tough love” reality check I got from #amwriting recurring guest therapist Dr. Diana Hill, and how answering one simple question—are you actually centering your reader?—changed everything about my book’s tone, structure, and voice.

Meanwhile, KJ opens up about why she threw out her protagonist, embraced a dual-timeline structure, and ignored the well-meaning advice of friends who told her NOT to keep starting over.

We talk about:

* How to recognize when a book is polite or timid instead of alive.

* The difference between an echo chamber (which AI can sometimes be) and a true truth-teller.

* A method for salvaging the gold from an abandoned draft without getting bogged down by old words.

* Why starting over isn’t “falling behind”—it’s standing up for your conviction.

If you’re feeling stuck, lost, or secretely suspecting your current draft needs a radical pivot, we encourage you stop playing it safe and build something alive.

Let’s get back to work and finish work we LOVE.

#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Books Mentioned

* Austin Kleon’s Steal Like an Artist

* John Wooden’s books on coaching basketball

* Serena Bowen’s novel: Big Stick Energy

* Virginia A. Evans’s The Correspondent

Transcript

Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big episode, where I bring you short conversations, this one might not be so short, about the mindset shifts that shape the work, and today I’m talking to KJ.

Jennie: Hi, KJ.

KJ: I’m so excited to be here. This is... Uh, you know. I’ll be here lots. This is great. Uh, the, the behind-the-scenes stuff- Is the behind the scenes stuff? KJ

Jennie: often-

KJ: And here we are just to like, you know, having a nice normal, um, a podcast, so

Jennie: yeah. I know. I’m so excited to talk to you and to share this conversation with our listeners, and we’re talking about

Jennie: So we’re talking about the mindset shifts that shape the work. That’s what Write Big is all about, and [00:01:00] oof, some big ones just happened for us both. Yep. Um, if you’ve been listening for a while, you know we’re both working on projects. They’re very different projects. Um, KJ’s is a novel, mine is a nonfiction book, and I just m- literally dropped a bomb on mine and totally blew it up and started in a new direction, and this is years into it, and you recently did that too, and you- I did

KJ: something very similar

Jennie: you were shy about sharing it with me, which I thought was funny. Um- Oh. ‘Cause you were like- Yeah ... “She’s not in the book anymore.” I was asking her about

KJ: something. That’s right. You’re like, “Oh, and this could be s- “ I, I mentioned something, and I was like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah,

Jennie: I just mentioned changes. That was when we were in person.

Jennie: We, KJ and I were in person, and you know what? We didn’t take a picture.

KJ: Oh my God, we didn’t. You’re right. Oh, well.

Jennie: We both tra- We have a

KJ: lot of things. Travel It just means we have to do it again [00:02:00] soon.

Jennie: We both traveled great distances in order to have lunch and go shopping and talk about books, and we were walking and chatting about KJ’s book, and, and that’s when I learned she had blown everything up.

Jennie: So how are

KJ: you- We both blew things up. So I got questions. I’m sure you have questions. I have. My first question- Yeah ... you just did this, so how did you know you had to do this?

Jennie: Yeah, I did it yesterday.

KJ: I think that’s ... I know. I think that’s the thing that people wanna know, like, “How did you, how did you know?”

KJ: Okay. “Was it gradual? Was it sudden?” Just-

Jennie: Yeah ...

KJ: you know, j- tell, tell us how we should know if we should do the same thing, which I already did, and I have an answer to this too, so.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah.

KJ: How did

Jennie: you know? So I was ... I had a finished manuscript, and I asked two people to read it for very particular reasons, these beta reas- readers, and they, neither of them were people that I would call

Jennie: They’re not the kinda typical people that I would go to. [00:03:00] They were, they were more, um, regular readers, if that makes sense. They’re, they’re not insidery people like you. I mean, you and I- Me ... have a lot of insidery, inside the industry people. These were not those people. So I had a full manuscript. I took it out to both of them.

Jennie: I got feedback from both of them, and the, the first, the first person’s feedback was- Fine? It was, it was fine. It was like, “This is fine. I want more of this or that.” And it was, it was kind of like, not-

KJ: Fine, huh? Great ...

Jennie: not what anybody wants. Fine. I either want my reader to be like, “Oh, hell yes,” or, “I co- totally don’t get it.”

Jennie: Like, I want, I don’t want fine. So that was the first thing, and then the second reader [00:04:00] said, “I ha- I got some tough love for you.” And this was happened after I was really struggling. I was trying to rewrite while they were doing the beta read, and, you know, f- with my own critique and my own next steps and my own thing, and I found myself unable to go forward because of the title.

Jennie: I kept changing my mind on the title. Like, what really is this? And what, it’s particularly the subtitle. What, what am I doing? Like, after all this time, after all this time, after a million blueprints, a million conversations, a whole manuscript, I’m still asking myself, “What is the point? Who is this for?

Jennie: What am I doing?” And I, when I say that I was wrestling with that, I felt that I couldn’t revise until I got it right because I, the revision now is very [00:05:00] specific. It’s not let’s just get some words down.

KJ: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And so I think I spent, I mean, I’m not even exaggerating- 12 hours? I’m not kidding. Playing- No,

KJ: I, I believe-

Jennie: Playing with my title.

Jennie: And-

KJ: And you kept sending me things, and I’d be like, “Eh.”

Jennie: Yeah, you were like, “Meh.” I was playing in Chat GPT- I was super helpful ... and the reason that I spent so much time was it was really fun. It was, it was like, “Well, what about this? Well, what about the other? I don’t like that word.” Like I was fighting with the machine, which I sort of enjoyed, and, and it was, it was

Jennie: It says, you know, it says ridiculous things all the time. “This is your most original idea.” I’m like, “Blah.” You know? Yeah. Just I was kind of wanting to- Yeah, you,

KJ: you, you can’t listen to it. No. You can only listen to what it’s making you say.

Jennie: I was wrestling with my own mind. Yeah. That’s what I was doing.

Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and I would land on something, and I would think this, and I would start [00:06:00] to revise, and I’d think, “Yeah,” and then I’d send it to you. And you’d be, yeah, you’d be like, “I don’t like it,” or, “I don’t get it,” or, “Meh,” or, “No,” or whatever. And I was getting mad, not at you, but at my own self. Like, what is the matter here?

Jennie: And if you’ve listened to the podcast, you heard some big revelation episodes with Andrew Perella, who’s working on his novel, where you have to step back from the wrestling to say, “Why am I wrestling so much with this? There’s something else going on here,” right? Mm-hmm. So that was kind of what was happening, and then the second beta reader- Uh, who is, has been on the podcast several times as well and, and will be in the future.

Jennie: It’s therapist Diana. So therapist Diana often comes on to help us with some psychological things around writing. And- And

KJ: she has a book.

Jennie: She does. She has actually three. So she was the one [00:07:00] who said, “I got some tough love for you.” And she said, “Why don’t you come over, and we’ll sit down, and I’ll, I’ll tell it to you.”

Jennie: And so part of me was doing that thing that you do is, where it was like, “Oh, crap, I still have so much work to do, and, and I’m tired of this, and I don’t wanna.” And, you know, so I went into it with that sort of whiny, resistant attitude. And for, like, the first hour when she was talking to me, I had that really defensive thing of like, “You don’t get me.

Jennie: You don’t get, you don’t get what I’m doing. You don’t, you’re not, you’re not in my world.” Like, I was really resistant. And then she did the coolest thing because she’s a, a therapist and a writer and all the things. She used my own system on me, and she was like, [00:08:00] “Okay, step one is why are you doing this?” And she said, “I want...

Jennie: I’m gonna ask you,” I think she said, “15 times, ‘Why are you doing this?’” And we, we were walking, and so she was just go saying, “Why are you doing this?” And I was just spouting out all the things. And I got to about, I don’t know, eight, nine, and she goes, “Okay.” None of these are about the reader. These are all about you and what you want.

Jennie: And, and none of these are about what you’re actually making. Is this book... Are you trying to help your readers with what you’re trying to do with this book? Like, are they in the same place you are? And I s- I had this really strong reaction, and I said, “No. What I’m struggling with around this book is, is a different problem from, from my r- my [00:09:00] reader.

Jennie: I want to meet them here.” And I, and I said where I want to meet them, and what I want, how I wanted to help them, and why it was so hard to deliver that. And she was taking notes on her phone while we were walking, and then, uh, she read them back to me, and, and it was like, oh yeah, that’s the book I want to write.

Jennie: That, that’s the book I want to write. Like, I, I knew it, I just wasn’t doing it. And it was, um, a whole different structure, a whole different attitude, a whole different voice and tone. And, and it really required a page zero start. So I... This was what was really cool. I, um, did not use ChatGPT. I wrote a new subtitle.

Jennie: I guess I did use it, ‘cause I was wrestling with one word. I guess I did use it for this one [00:10:00] word. Um-

KJ: It’s, it can be a really great thesaurus.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah. And, and I sent it to you, and you said, I’m gonna keep this text for the rest of my life. You said, “I’ve already pre-ordered it.”

KJ: Yeah.

Jennie: I mean- You

KJ: got it

Jennie: It actually-

KJ: I mean, you know, you might change a word or something, but, but no, that one was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

KJ: Okay.

Jennie: Yeah. It made me wanna cry. Aw. And then I re- I wrote a new intro, totally new from scratch, which is where I had been stuck before, just like even what is this? And I, I wrote it in, like, 15 minutes, and I sent it to Diana, therapist Diana, and, um, she said, her text reply was, “F*****g awesome.”

KJ: Yay.

Jennie: And I was like, okay, okay.

Jennie: [00:11:00] Like, two people I trust.

KJ: She didn’t say, “Fine.”

Jennie: Right? Two people I trust had that reaction, and when I... I wish I could find the text. Maybe I can find the text. Because when I sent it to her, this was what was so great. I do wanna find this. I’m scrolling through my texts now while we’re talking, because I said, um- New intro, just three pages.

Jennie: Will you read? This is it, period. I hardly even need to ask you because I know it’s it. Like, I, it wasn’t looking for confirmation or validation. I kind of just wanted her to see. But I, I felt it was it. I knew it was it. And then I started... I can’t stop writing now. Like, I’d been so stuck, and I can’t stop writing.

Jennie: I’m so fired up. I’m so excited. It feels alive and amazing. Um, it feels like butter on toast. Like, it’s just [00:12:00] smooth and easy, and I get it, and I, I, I’ve clicked in, and it, and it... This has come after, like, I tried to sell this book. You know? I mean, I went through that whole process and, and it didn’t. And now I’m so delighted that it didn’t sell, that I’m not writing that other book, that, that I get to write- Yes

Jennie: this book. And it’s, like, such a pain in the butt really because, you know, I wanted it to be done, and I wanted it to be over- ... and I wanted to be close. And I thought I was there. Um, I had all these plans, you know, for launching and making it happen and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, oh gosh, now I’m like six months or a year behind.

Jennie: I’m using air quotes. Like, behind what? I don’t know. I mean, if I’m perfectly honest, there, there’s a colleague who has a book coming out in 2027 that I’m [00:13:00] twitchy about, and I sort of wanted to beat it. And- ... it was never gonna happen. And also, like, what is that even? What is that even? So I, yeah, I feel amazing.

KJ: This is great.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel amazing.

KJ: That’s, that’s fantastic. Yeah.

Jennie: I, I just love it. I’m so grateful for, um, you know, the people that I have who are truth tellers, which is, you’re one of them. And you

KJ: know- It is hard to find a truth teller. And I pick up so many books now, some of them by, you know, very well-known authors, and I’m like, there, there was no truth teller- Right

KJ: for this person. And- I mean, I, I, yeah. You know, sometimes it’s just like, “Well, this could’ve been better,” but the- I’ve had a couple where I was like, “Wow, damn.” Like, I would’ve, I would... [00:14:00] Even though I don’t know you very well, if you’d given this to me in time, I would’ve stopped you, but-

Jennie: Well, I think sometimes the more famous people get, the, the less often- I think so

Jennie: people will tell them the truth, and- Mm-hmm ... you have to seek that o- out your own self. And, y- you know, I’m so lucky that I have s- have, I mean, so lucky. You know, you, you’re not gonna let me get away with crap, and I don’t wanna put crap out there. Like, what I had was fine. It

KJ: wasn’t crap. It was fine. It

Jennie: was fine.

KJ: Mm-hmm. But- And some of it was great, was, like, inspirational, really. Helped me, and had lot... But you couldn’t, you just couldn’t nail that the subtitle was the point.

Jennie: Yep. It’s so true. Yeah,

KJ: and you just couldn’t, you just kept sending me, like, “Ugh.”

Jennie: I know.

KJ: You know? Like, like, “Oh, this is a book about...” You know, I was like, eh, just like, you know-

Jennie: This is a writing book

KJ: boring thing, boring thing, colon, [00:15:00] boring thing. And it was- I know ... or, you know, like, like, “Meh thing, unexciting, dash-” “... probably okay.” I don’t know. It’s, it’s-

Jennie: I know, and it, you know, this is in fact the whole write big process. I am going through the very thing I am teaching people to do. And- Mm-hmm When I, what I really understood finally is the reason

Jennie: So one of the things, um, when Diana asked me, when she stopped me from saying all the reasons why I wanted to write this book and, and said none of these are about the reader, she understands about me that my whole career is about the reader. I, I train book coaches. I’m a book coach. I- it’s what I do. And, and so she was e- then asked me to really define.

Jennie: She was like, “When you’re coaching someone and it’s magic and it [00:16:00] just works and it’s awesome, what are you doing?” And, and it was like, I’m not pulling any punches. I’m not, you know, a- and I, and I described to her an incident that just happened, and I can’t say very much about it. But a very, very well-known performer was sent to me by an agent, somebody we would all know, with a book proposal that needed help.

Jennie: And, and I read the proposal, and the word that was just like a neon sign flashing in my mind was timid. It just felt timid.

KJ: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And everybody does this. Everybody shrinks to a certain extent from the thing that they know they can write, and it was like, wow, s- super famous performer who is connected to all the famous people, don’t write a timid book.

Jennie: Like, we don’t, we don’t want you to write a timid book. No. You don’t want to write a timid book. And in what I do, so I, I got on the Zoom with them, and I said, [00:17:00] “This is timid. This is a timid book. You’re shrinking from your authority.” And, you know, they were obviously taken aback. Um, but also then they ... It landed.

Jennie: Like- Yes ... I, I see that. And that’s what I do when I’m coaching someone. So, so why is that not in the book? Yeah. So the book has gotten much more confrontational, much more tough love, much, much less equivocating. It just feels- Much

KJ: less how to not do something.

Jennie: Ugh. Like. It’s so much more me, and I- Yeah

Jennie: sometimes pretend like I’m a, a polite and kind and whatever, patient person. But the people that know me, you know, know I’m not actually like that, so. Anyway.

KJ: And that would not be a helpful, I mean, that’s not a helpful book coach.

Jennie: That’s right.

KJ: You know, people may need that, but- For some people, give somebody

KJ: I don’t, yeah. I mean, yeah. Some, sometimes. But by and large, if you give somebody [00:18:00] something and they’re like, “This is great”-

Jennie: Yeah.

KJ: I, I mean, and maybe it’s great. Yeah. It’s probably not.

Jennie: Yeah.

KJ: You know, 99% of the time it’s almost, or it’s not even close, or it’s ...

Jennie: Yeah.

KJ: Yeah.

Jennie: So I’ve pulled off of my shelf some different books for inspiration than the ones I was using before.

Jennie: Um, Austin Kleon has a really cool thing in his new book. Why can’t I remember the title of his new book? It’s quite hard to remember.

KJ: I don’t know. What does he want you to steal now?

Jennie: I mean, steal, Steal Like an Artist is so memorable, and I can’t remember the new, the new one. It’s a good book, but he has this really cool image where he says, “Books are made of books,” and, and he has the cover of his new book with these inputs and the cover of, like, I don’t know, maybe six or eight books that went into his [00:19:00] book.

Jennie: You know, like the, that went through his mind to create his book, and it’s really beautiful. Like

KJ: real books?

Jennie: Yes.

KJ: Like his cover is like if you put, I don’t know, I’m look- reading titles from the back of you- you- you’re behind ... Deep Work and Dare to Lead and Made to Stick, and, and you like- Yep ... fed them into a brain- Yep

KJ: and then it spat out your book?

Jennie: Yep.

KJ: Wow. Huh.

Jennie: It’s really

KJ: cool. That’s a, that’s an interesting ...

Jennie: Yeah, it’s

KJ: bold.

Jennie: That’s really- It is bold, and it, but I do think it’s, I do think it’s real. And, and I had some books that were sort of ... What’s weird is I wasn’t reading them or studying them. I was almost like I would almost just touch them.

Jennie: Like, these are the books I want my book to sit next to, to be like. And I’ve changed out the books that are, are that. I’ve pulled ... Like, I have this book that I love that is, um, by John Wooden, the basketball coach, about coaching basketball, and you know, it’s about [00:20:00] coaching, and, and I’ve always loved that book, and I’ve loved how he was revered as a coach.

Jennie: And you know, that, that book is now one that’s informing me more. It would never be a comp title. This is a very different concept than a comp title, right? But, um, yeah, I just feel, I feel great. And, um- And folks who have been listening have heard me share some things where I’ve not been feeling great, and I’ve been feeling lost and confused, and, you know, shouldn’t I know better?

Jennie: I’m the coach of the coaches, and shouldn’t I know better? This is my 13th book, and shouldn’t I know better? And it’s like, no, you always have to do the work. You just do.

KJ: Well, and that’s what I hope, you know, people who’ve been listening along to us for the years we’ve spent on these projects now take is, I mean, there are people who write great books really quickly.

KJ: Typically, they are also people who are able to, uh, you [00:21:00] know, process and keep pots on the stove. And, you know, like Serena writes three to four books a year, and that’s, uh, you know, a really hard person to have next to you at all times- Yeah, no kidding ... as I pretty much do. But I also can see that she’s got pots boiling at all the time.

KJ: She doesn’t, you know, wake up on March 1st and say, “Okay, I wanna have a book by July 31st. What should it be about?” And, and that’s not how it works for her. And, and so even though she is absolutely faster at producing quality work than, than I am, it’s still, it’s not that. You know, it’s more like, “Okay, here’s this thing that I set up before, and here’s this thing that I spent, you know, a week plotting, and here’s...

KJ: And I’m gonna pull this, this toge- together,” and, you know, she gets stuck, but she, and she also, you know, she’s full time all the time- Eh, not [00:22:00] doing, you know, that’s what she does. That and promoting them. And incidentally, she had a book come out today. Uh-oh, you’ve gone silent for me.

Jennie: Sorry, I was raving and saying she did.

Jennie: Um, it was, it’s called Big Stick Energy.

KJ: Yeah.

Jennie: And when this podcast airs, it will not have just come out today. It’ll be-

KJ: No, but, you know, as we talk ...

Jennie: a few weeks ago. But yeah, yay Serena. Okay. Yeah. So do you have more questions for me?

KJ: It was more that I just wanted to express that I, uh, felt similarly, but minus all the other people.

KJ: Mm. It was a very, like I was really stewing in like, “I just can’t- You know, I wanted to have, um, a, a, something that I was thinking about the whole time as I write. You know, I really wanted to know the, what the theme was and what the point was, and I just wanted to know why. Why was I doing this? And every day I would like sort of wake up [00:23:00] and, and stew more on that, and like put some more things in that.

KJ: And it was like a, a 40-page Google Doc of, you know, me ranting and trying to get there. And then, then I was, I was putting words on the page, and I had 35,000 words, but I would sit down and I found the protagonist boring. She just ... The other people around her were more interesting.

Jennie: That’s

KJ: not a

Jennie: good- And- That’s not a good- No

Jennie: feeling.

KJ: No, it was bad. And I just kept sort of poking at this, and, and it was always so ... I’d say it’s, it’s, um, I would call it, I would call it domestic suspense except that it, it’s more of an outdoorsy book, so, you know, I don’t know, campground suspense. I don’t know. But, um, it’s, it’s not exactly a thriller.

KJ: It’s definitely a, a suspense novel. And it all came down to like, well, why did this [00:24:00] happen, and why and why and why? And I realized that all of it was in the past. The more interesting story was in the past, and the more interesting people were the ones who had had that past experience, and were still here in this book.

KJ: And it didn’t mean that, that I didn’t need a second generation of people, but they needed to have been, um, honestly fed by the trauma of the thing that happened in the past, and it ... So I, at some point, I was looking for the text while we were talking, but I can’t find it. I texted, um, Serena and Jess, and I was like, “Ugh, I think I gotta

KJ: The, I gotta, I gotta have a second, I gotta have a dual timeline. I gotta ...” A- and Serena was like, “Stop doing this. You keep stop, you keep blowing this bo- book up. You know, just write what you’re writing. Just write.” And I was like, “No, no, no, no. I really, I, I do. I do.” And, “Why?” She said, “Why?” I said, “Because that’s where the interesting stuff is.”

KJ: And she said, “Okay, fine.”

Outro: Okay, but you said- And then she made me explain it

KJ: when

Outro: we had a, a walk,

KJ: but,

Jennie: um- You said it didn’t involve people, but that’s people. [00:25:00]

KJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But the people were saying, “No, no.” And, and she’s right to do that. I’m very prone- Oh, I see. They were not- I’m a little prone to blowing, blowing things up

Jennie: they were not egging you on. They were saying-

KJ: No. Yeah. Uh, it was, it was, you know, “Can, can you stop rethinking this book and, and write this book?” And yes, yes I can, but it needed the, the rethinking. It’s, this is, it’s, it’s much more interesting. And, you know, it was at a point where things would kinda like, I’d come up with something and be like, “Oh, yeah, that locks into this, and this locks into this, and this locks into this,” but- The method of telling it wasn’t working.

KJ: It’s not really a different story. The method of telling it wasn’t, wasn’t, wasn’t working. But it really is kind of like it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and it bugs you, and finally you just give in to it.

Jennie: Well, yeah. I mean, it’s a really interesting question of how do you know when you’re hiding from something, or avoiding something, [00:26:00] or telling yourself a story about your story, and how do you know when you need to make a move?

Jennie: I, I feel like it’s very, very hard to do that in isolation. You know, even with your situation where your people were saying, “No, KJ,” that’s a mirror that somebody’s holding up to you where you get to decide how you feel about them saying no. Like, the point- Right ... really honest, good feedback is not that you take it all the time, it’s that does this resonate with something in you or not?

Jennie: And with me it was like, oh, yeah, my fine manuscript, and then, and then this tough love. I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it needs to change.” And you hearing that, you’re like, “No. No. This...” Like, it, it was all, it all goes back to your conviction, but it’s- It,

KJ: it’s just like the way you were using ChatGPT. ChatGPT wrote nothing, said [00:27:00] nothing, con- added nothing because he is...

KJ: He. I don’t, uh... You know, it is not an anything. It is a echo. It is- Yeah ... a reflection. It is an echo and a reflection of all of our work combined into, you know, a, a, a stolen creation. But e- and therefore, as far as I’m concerned, we have a right to use it however we want. But- It’s not capable of producing anything original, but it is capable of reflecting

Jennie: That’s right

KJ: And that’s what you were using it for, and I think that’s really

Jennie: It’s really helpful when you’re strategizing- Mm-hmm

Jennie: and sorting out your thoughts, and this is what I think I wanna do, and this is why I wanna do it, and this is why that word isn’t right for that. And for me, that was just the-

KJ: And the peril of it kind of is that it refuses to stop

Jennie: So that’s what’s so interesting you say that, because I... When I... So I said 12 hours.

Jennie: I spent a whole lot of time on airplanes the last month, and this [00:28:00] is kind of what I would do on an airplane, is I was on airplanes that now have super fast, like that satellite hotspot- Mm-hmm ... WiFi. It’s super fast. And so it was kind of fun to get to do this stuff on an airplane. And you know, I can... I love to work on airplanes, but I can’t do deep work.

Jennie: So I would sort of tap into this, and I was just playing, playing, playing, playing, pushing, pushing. And I did have the thought at one point: There is no friend that I have on the planet or anybody that I could pay that would stick with this as long as I’m doing it. And-

KJ: That is true ...

Jennie: and that was in, on some, some ways I was like thank goodness that this thing will stick with my brain, saying, “No.

Jennie: No, not that word. Let’s find 47 other words to think about right

KJ: now.” But you’re the one saying, “No, no, no.”

Jennie: Yes. Yes.

KJ: Yeah.

Jennie: And no human

KJ: would do that. But I do find that a peril of it, like, [00:29:00] like I was trying to use it to, to find a, a stand-up paddleboard today. This is a fine use to... And, and you know, it kept... It just keeps saying, “Well, if you’ll tell me this, I could do this.

KJ: And if you’ll tell me this, I could...” Like, it never... It doesn’t want... You know, it’s not a thing, so it wants to keep you there like all things of its sort. So it’s a, it’s a little bit of, um It, it’s, it’s just something to be aware of. Like, it’s, it is keeping ... Its job is to keep you in that conversation.

Jennie: Yeah.

Jennie: And it

KJ: wa- But it is not a conversation because it is not a, it is not something that you can converse with. But so, so to use it for as far as you can get, and then as you did, to go, “Uh, and now, you know, uh, my thoughts have, have churned enough to have, have, have ... And, and you have to sort of, uh, you know, leave it going, “But wait, if you’ll sugg- you know, tell, [00:30:00] I, tell

KJ: Right. It- “I can still think of 452 more words for, for,” you know.

Jennie: And it, and yeah. No. It’s relentlessly helpful- It’s relentless ... in suggesting things.

KJ: Yeah,

Jennie: yeah. And it’s ... So on the one hand, that was lovely, and on the other hand it was like, “Just stop.” Like, the writer’s job is to have an opinion or a point of view.

Jennie: And-

KJ: It could have any point of view ...

Jennie: it will never have a point of view- No. Yeah ... or opinion that is based on anything. And so, like, your reaction to your, your longtime people who know you and know your writing, know your process, and know your goals, and know all that, y- you know, that reflection allowed you to tap back into your point of view, which is, “No, I have to have two timelines.

Jennie: I have to blow this up. I have to do it differently. It’s ... My protagonist is boring.”

KJ: Yeah. Don’t worry, future readers of this book. She’s gone. [00:31:00]

Jennie: But new protagonist is not boring.

KJ: New protagonist is not one bit boring. It was funny ‘cause there were just some things that I, that had come from the point of view of non-protagonist characters that I was just like, “This is so much better than

KJ: Like, this is the, this is ... Like, I wanna be with this person. I don’t wanna be with this person I’m ... This person just threw themselves into this,” whereas, you know, the person I was imagining and creating and, uh- Anyway, it- it’s okay. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.

Jennie: Um, I mean, I know you’ve had that thing I’ve had, which is I’m gonna have a draft by X, and you’ve had that- Yeah

Jennie: for many, many months.

KJ: The number of times I’ve said I’m gonna have a draft by on- Yeah ... this particular manuscript are- Really embarrassing. They’re not embarrassing, it’s just, you know, it, it, [00:32:00] it just, it just is. I’m trying to do something different, and doing something different takes time, and you are trying to do something big-

Jennie: Yeah

KJ: and something that has a big shadow and a big resonance, and you can’t ... You’re not gonna ... That’s not gonna be that way in the first or the second or the fourth or the fifth draft.

Jennie: Well, you said to me ... I, I’ve always had a vision of this book I’m writing as, as being small. I have a couple of-

KJ: Small physically, like thin.

Jennie: Both. Small in length and small in trim size. Uh, uh, spare, I guess, is maybe- Yeah ... a word I, I would think of. And there’s several books I have that do that, that I admire, and it’s a thing I want. And you’ve been always saying to me, “It’s really hard to write a book like that.” It’s n- you don’t just ... [00:33:00] Just ‘cause it’s little and short doesn’t mean it’s easy

KJ: It’s hard to write short.

Jennie: Yeah. And, and you’ve been warning me about that, and I think I really encountered that buzzsaw here. Uh, I’m like, “Ugh.” Um, so.

KJ: Well, you’re just trying to channel ... I think you’re also trying to channel a part of yourself that mostly comes out in reaction to others.

Jennie: Mm, yeah.

KJ: And that’s hard, because you don’t have anything to react against.

KJ: Yeah. You’re reacting against an imaginary version. You’re reacting against everyone that you’ve ever had to go, “That’s timid.”

Jennie: Yep. “

KJ: That’s, you know, that’s not what you meant to do.” Okay, great, but I didn’t ... Like, uh, this is, is, is fine writing, but why? Where does it fit? Right. What is this? What the hell are you doing?

KJ: What- Right ... you know? And you’re trying to write for all of those people, but as an abstraction.

Jennie: That’s super astute. That’s super astute. And I,

KJ: I’m gonna- Maybe, [00:34:00] maybe, maybe you, you address this book to, to the, this, um, unknown celebrity.

Outro: Well, I actually did write that

KJ: story. Dear Taylor Swift, this is how you-

Outro: Oh, gosh.

Outro: Can you

KJ: imagine? Don’t write a ... Don’t- Uh ... don’t write a, a, you know- Uh ...

Jennie: a

KJ: timid book. And I know it wasn’t Taylor. Well, I don’t actually know that it wasn’t Taylor. No. But it wasn’t Taylor Swift, guys. It wasn’t Taylor

Jennie: Swift. Oh, my gosh. Um, the ... Yeah, that is a really helpful thing for me to think about, actually, because I need to keep specific people in mind at specific points, and that’s gonna help me.

Jennie: And that’s the reason why I love book coaching, is I love the back-and-forthing. Interactive nature that is

KJ: very- Well, and you said to me the last time we talked about my book, I wrote it down, hold on, ‘cause it’s very, [00:35:00] “What can I say that’s not being said? What can I say that’s offensive? How can I make people mad?”

KJ: Here, do that. I’m shaking the page at Jennie. Jennie, what can you say that’s not being said about writing? Why, how can you offend people? How can you hurt their feelings and make them go away and go, “That’s worse. I’m not either doing that. You’re so

KJ: mean”?

Jennie: Well, the reason I said that is because we were talking about what books ... I mean, so far listeners, Kate is obviously at a level many of us will never get to, and in her career. She is at a very high level with- She

KJ: does not feel that way.

Jennie: I know. But, you know, with really big goals and, uh, big possibilities in front of her.

Jennie: And so the, when we talk about it, it’s like, “What will make people pick this book for their book club?” And, and that’s a question anybody could ask, and should [00:36:00] ask, if that’s what their goal is, to write such a book. And, you know, that’s why I was saying write something offensive, because you want some book clubs to be like, “That is a book we will not touch,” because- Yep

Jennie: that that means there are other book clubs that are gonna be like, “This is our next book, no question.” Yeah. You know?

KJ: Yeah. Like, if you- And we say it all the time, you write for everyone, you write for no one, but also it’s just hard to-

Jennie: Well, and I have

KJ: been- Hard not to like pull your punches and back up a little and be like, “Uh, I can’t mention that.

KJ: I can’t, I can’t-” Or, “I

Jennie: can’t be that person.” And you, as a human, I mean, I am so fortunate to be your friend, because you as a human will often say things that other people will, will maybe not say, or, you know, are maybe not super popular. And I go to you to hear those things, you know? And, and you, you say them with conviction, and I love [00:37:00] that about you.

Jennie: And that should be in your book, you know?

KJ: Well, I’m trying. I think it’s closer. Amazing. I think it’s a lot closer.

Jennie: Well, if folks are getting tired of hearing us talk about this, the endless struggle and challenge and up and down and whatever, you’re probably not in the right business. Because-

KJ: Yeah ...

Jennie: this is- I

KJ: would hope this would be reassuring

Jennie: this is how it goes.

KJ: I always wanna hear. That is part of the problem with the, the standard podcast model of talk to author whose book has just come out, because that is an author whose book has just come out. They have just, they’ve, they’ve done all this, and, and I’m not... I mean, by all means, you know, listen to podcasts about authors and then go buy their books.

KJ: Um, but you know, as a writer, you just hear that and you’re like, “Oh, look, they’re finished. Look, that,” you know, they, they, they... And they, they’ll say, “Well, there was this really low moment where, you know, the, my book pre- before [00:38:00] this got turned down,” or whatever. But they’re, they’re past that and, and you’re just like, “Well, yeah, but that was probably really short.

KJ: That was probably a blip. You probably didn’t feel that the way I would’ve felt it.” And I,

Jennie: yeah, so- Right? You hear Virginia A. Evans say she was rejected and rejected and rejected, and she finally just said, “Screw it, I’m gonna write this weird story in my head,” that turned out to be The Correspondent, you know?

Jennie: And, and she tells that in three minutes on a podcast,

KJ: and- Right ... I- And you’re like, “Well, that, that, that was short. That can’t have been very painful.”

Jennie: Right? And look at what it got her, and she’s fine now. But- Mm-hmm ... yeah, I’m mostly interested in talking to people when they’re making the decisions that lead to whatever, whatever they’re gonna make, ‘cause it’s the process, man.

Jennie: You gotta like the process. Yeah. Even on the days when it sucks and- Ooh ... oof, there are days when it does. They really-

KJ: There, there are, [00:39:00] there are indeed Yeah. Well, but this is pretty g- like we’re, we’re back. We’re back, kids. We’re, we’re- We’re, we’re back ... we’re writing. We’re, we’re, we’re here. We’re doing it.

KJ: We did. Yeah. We blew some stuff up, but now we’re

KJ: building it back. Hopefully a year from now you won’t be listening to the exact same podcast. We’ll be like, “Here’s what we said a year ago. Here’s how we’re blowing up our books today.” At some point everyone should be like, “You know they’re never gonna finish these books.” When is that point?

Outro: 2029.

KJ: If we’re still doing this in 2029

Jennie: and talking about the same books, you can, you can all just turn off. No, I’m on fire now. I’m on fire. I am too,

KJ: I swear.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah.

KJ: This is it.

Jennie: And there’s a thing that I’m doing that we could talk briefly about, ‘cause I know you’re doing too, which is when you blow something up, there are parts of what you made that you can keep.

Jennie: And what’s part of the fun is discerning that. Yeah. And for me, I’m [00:40:00] going through the manuscript and, and saving a story here, a page there. I would say like one out of 10 maybe. One-

KJ: That is not how I do it.

Jennie: Mm.

KJ: I start a new thing and then I will go back. Whenever I run into something that I know is in the other thing, I pull it in.

Jennie: Mm. Yeah, I’ve been

KJ: mining- It’s kind of my rule. I’m allowed, allowed to be in the other thing.

Jennie: Interesting. Interesting. It’s

KJ: only I have to take it ... And sometimes I don’t even drop it right into the Scrivener. I’ll like put it somewhere else- Yes ... and then play with it somewhere else-

Outro: Interesting ...

KJ: so that

KJ: Yeah, ‘cause I, I, I don’t wanna Sometimes, and sometimes I will realize that revising something that I already did, even though it’s good, to make it fit is actually harder than just rewriting it.

Jennie: Yeah. I just really like the physical act. I, I do this physical thing. I go in and [00:41:00] I literally strike out what I’m not gonna use.

Jennie: Mm. And it, it feels really satisfying. Just like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope”- Yeah ... nope. And then I’ll encounter a thing I am gonna use, and I’ll highlight it gray. That means it was used. And-

KJ: Nice ...

Jennie: it just ... I like the physicality of there are parts of this that are useful, and there’s a lot of this that is not, and, and I’m making that decision.

Jennie: It’s gone from-

KJ: Right ...

Jennie: well, it’s not really, it’s struck out, but- Yeah ... that physical, um- Yeah.

KJ: That was, that was what ... I forget the phrase that Serena used, but when I said I was doing this and I was gonna start it, and she said, “Okay, save past draft.” Like, she said something very clear. It was just, like, three words that were just like, you know, like, “Okay, but don’t, don’t throw it away.”

KJ: That’s so funny.

Jennie: Which I,

KJ: I wasn’t going to, but yeah.

Jennie: Do you feel 100% committed to the forward path now? [00:42:00]

KJ: I feel 100% committed to the forward path. Thanks. This is so much more alive.

Jennie: Yay. Same. That’s what we’re looking for, alive. Alive.

KJ: Yes.

Jennie: Yeah, I love it. All right. Well, um, so fun to chat with you, KJ, and we will continue the conversation.

Jennie: Um, also you have some stuff up your sleeve that, um, folks will get to listen to coming up. And for everyone tuning in, so glad you could join me to talk to KJ. Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.

Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were [00:43:00] paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work