Adventure Travel with Jack Fleckney - Legend Expeditions | Tanzania

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Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Big World Made Small podcast for the Adventure Traveler.
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So happy to have each and every one of you back today.
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I'm also very excited.
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We've got a great guest today.
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He's really the adventure guy that, you know, kind of goes along with Big World Made Small Adventure Travel Podcast.
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And his name is Jack, Jack Fleckney.
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He is the founder of Legend Expeditions.
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Jack, it's a real pleasure to have you here.
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Thanks for joining us.
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Thank you very much, Jason.
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Good to chat with you.
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So the first thing people are going to notice is your accent, and they're going to just maybe make assumptions of where you might be at in the world.
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We're going to discuss how you got to where you are, but let's at least let them know where you are, and then we're going to uh talk a little bit about what Legend Expeditions is.
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Of course.
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Yeah.
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So it's 9 p.m.
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here.
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Sat in Moshi, which is a uh a town uh basically on the foothills of Kilimanjaro.
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So it's where our small home and office is located from the front garden.
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We can see the top of the mountain.
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Um so I'm sat here this evening in Tanzania, although I share time between here and the UK.
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Very cool.
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Well, and one of the things you mentioned was obviously it's later in the later in the day there.
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So you've got a little less light than I do here in Colombia at the moment.
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But also you said, you know, we're a small town, Tanzania.
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Who knows about the internet?
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So we're gonna see how if we can make it make it through here.
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Yeah, no, that's okay.
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I get that.
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I've I've lived in a lot of different places and I've had those similar experiences.
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So let's let's tell our listeners not how you started Legend Expeditions, but what is Legend Expeditions?
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Who do you serve and what is kind of your bread and butter?
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Yeah, Legend Expeditions is a company based in Tanzania, and we specialize in Kilimanjaro climbs.
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And our our speciality is is well, it started off as having as high summit success as possible.
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So we wanted everyone that comes out to give them the best chance of reaching the summit of Kilimanjaro, just because historically, you know, the summit successes sits in between around 70 to 80%, depending on what route you're doing on the mountain.
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We were trying to increase those numbers.
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And the result of that is we've become a little bit more luxury.
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So we talk about sleeping setups, the things we take up on the mountain, the way we look after the team that works with you.
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And alongside that, we also do safaris.
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We didn't start off doing safaris, but that evolved as more customers travel with us and then wanted to go out into the bush and see the Serengeti or just see particular wildlife.
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And then I started guiding and leading some of those trips as well.
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Okay, very cool.
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I heard you say we kind of started out or initially it was about getting the success rate up as high as possible.
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And then I heard you say it kind of shifted into a lot more luxury and and kind of how we do it.
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So I'm curious, did the initial goal of increasing the summit rates change?
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Or does or is the way you're doing it with the luxury and the care you're taking, does that increase this the summit rate, success rate?
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I don't know.
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I'm just curious what the connection is there.
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No, you've nailed it, Jason.
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When so so I'm ex-military, and when we started working on the mountain, we looked at like every single detail of the climb that we could improve and do a little bit better, and in result, give people the better chance of reaching the summit.
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So normally people don't reach the summit because of acclimatization.
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So the first thing we looked at was roots on the mountain.
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We looked how many days they have to acclimatize the altitude profile when they're climbing on the mountain and started creating the best option there.
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And then we were like, well, people need to sleep really well, hydrate really well, eat really well to acclimatize better.
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So the sleeping then was well, let's not lay on the floor in a tent.
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Let's bring in stand-up tents, let's bring in beds, let's bring in some thick mattresses for them to sleep on, pillows, hot water bottles have introduced, you know, all the things that are going to make people sleep as best as possible.
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And then uh I suppose the other side to it was hygiene.
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So again, you know, you're climbing a mountain for potentially eight days, sometimes more, and it's very easy to get poorly on the mountain because it's it's it's a little bit unhygienic.
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So we're like, well, how do we improve that?
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So we started off by doing hand washing stations where they have dinner.
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So every time they're on top of that, and they've got public toilets up on the mountain, but they are like they're squatting toilets that are just huge holes, really.
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Like so big, you can fall into them, Jason, right?
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So uh and they're not very hygienic at all.
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So we were like, well, let's bring up our own toilets.
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So we so we bring toilets up on the mountain with us, and they're like flushable toilets that we clean and empty out.
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And I suppose the final addition is which we we kind of introduced as we've been growing the business, which was showers.
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Um, we had these in the military, we had these showers that you could just transport alongside with you, heat some water up, fill it up, and then just have a shower.
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So we we a bit like solar showers.
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I'm sure lots of your listeners know about solar showers.
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So we we introduced that now as well.
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So it's just another way that people can stay clean on the mountain.
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But I suppose that's just like the customer-facing side on our side, we've done lots in terms of medical safety, auction cylinders, all sorts to try and look after people and give them a better chance of making it to the top.
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Okay.
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So what I got out of what you just said is if they stay hygienic, so clean, not not getting sick, well-fed, well-rested, feeling good about life, the chances of them getting to the top are higher.
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That's basically what I boiled down.
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Yeah.
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What you said.
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Is that how much the the deal is?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, exactly.
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We're gonna get into your background, but since you mentioned already being, you know, a military guy, probably I was in the military as well.
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I was I was in the army, I was an infantry paratrooper guy, and so we slept on the ground a lot and we didn't always have tents and stuff like that.
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So I'm curious, was that a challenge for you to kind of get your well, here's an example.
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When I got out of the military, I went the first job I had out was managing a fast food restaurant.
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And I was, you know, an NCO in the army.
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And if you didn't show up on time, you did push-ups.
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If you showed up without shaving, you got sent, you know, you're in trouble.
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So I remember dealing with these guys, most of my employees were still in high school or college, and here I'm showing up, like, oh, you need to go home and shave or get that air ring out, or, you know, do push-ups, and it just did it didn't work very well.
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So when I hear you say, Oh, we were figuring out the routes and how to climb and get to the top and all this stuff, I can imagine that some of these comfort stuff were probably a secondary thing for you.
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So, was that a challenge?
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Where I'm going with this is was that a challenge for you to get your head around that not everybody is comfortable sleeping in the dirt and waking up in the morning and eating that eating a meal out of a can?
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Yeah, you Jason, I was very lucky actually, because I left the military and I think there's two differences.
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I think the UK military is probably a little bit more relaxed with with I've worked with the American military.
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I used to work with the US Marines and the SEALs a lot in um uh out in the California, the Mojave Desert, I think it was called.
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And um uh and yeah, I I yeah, oh there you go.
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You know it well, Jason.
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So so I saw the difference in the way you do those things.
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But the lucky thing for me is I left and I learned those lessons before I set the business up because I left the military and um yeah, yeah, I I left the military and I was really into training, so I I set up a gym.
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But the first session I ever took was for like a PT session for a lady who actually raced motorbikes.
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She started, I mean we did like a 500-meter row and she started crying in the middle of it because it was too hard.
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And I remember still standing there and thinking, what do I do?
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What do I do with this situation?
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Do I shower?
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Just tell her to carry on going.
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So um, so I had I had a number of years before setting up this company.
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So I kind of we call it Civi Street.
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I don't know what you would say, Jason.
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We used to call it Civi Street in the as in like you leave the military and go into Civi Street, civilian life.
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And yeah, it was a big mental shift for me.
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Even I remember the first staff um appraisal that I did with a staff member that joined our business, and I was just so way too direct and just way too honest, which did not go down well.
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So yeah, I've learned those lessons through many mistakes.
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I I I get it completely.
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That's like, oh yeah.
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And I've got enough time now where I look back and I think, wow, I was so young, dumb, and just uh full of stuff, and it was uh yeah, it was a challenge.
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Um, all right, we're gonna we're definitely gonna get into that.
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I do have a couple questions.
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I've had a few conversations with people about Kilimanjaro, but don't really know that much about it.
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I know that it takes some time to acclimate.
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I've heard that correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that the summit of Kilimanjaro is similar to base camp at Everest, but the difference is that people going to base camp take longer to get there, or I I don't know what the deal is.
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But the the altitude is is a real thing.
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So just let's talk about that a little bit for people that aren't that don't know what we're talking about.
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Yeah, of course.
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Also, I'm extremely passionate about the mountain and the area around it.
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So Kinmanjar is based in Tanzania and it's just on the border below Kenya.
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Um so up in northern Tanzania.
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And actually, you know, the first people that that came across it were actually German explorers.
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And they were, they were, um, they, you know, they were trying to spread Christianity, but they also doubled up as explorers and would go back writing stories about different things they'd seed throughout, you know, animals, tribes, different things they'd see as they're travelling through East Africa.
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And um, you know, people, if you think about there's a Scottish guy called David Livingston, who's very famous.
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They all came across number one looking for the source of the Nile, and number two, looking for different tribes and wildlife.
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And one German explorer came across Kilimanjaro, which was about mid-1850s, obviously spent months travelling back home to tell everyone and said, Look, I've seen this mountain in Africa and it's got snow on it, and no one believed him.
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And it wasn't for another 20 odd years until when they sent another trip out where they actually came across it and went, okay, no, this is real.
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And it wasn't, it was Germans that were the first to properly climb to the summit in the 1880s.
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So that you're you're right that the mountain is very, very high.
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So it's it in meters, it's um just below 6,000 metres.
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In feet, I think that's around 90.
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So it's a very, very high mountain.
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So there is huge consideration for acclimatization.
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And if you look at most reasons why people don't make it to the top, it's just because they don't acclimatise correctly.
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So that might mean they've either gone up too high, it might just mean their body's not very good at altitude.
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Uh, it might mean, you know, a lot of different factors that affect how people are climatised to go to the mountain.
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And there is thousands of companies that offer Kilimanjaro climbs, and all of them are slightly different, but there definitely is a like a setway that you climb the mountain, and there is four main routes.
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I suppose the most popular route currently is one called the Machame route, which goes up from the south of the mountain and you climb it over six or seven days.
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That summit success is in around 80 percent, 80 to 85 percent.
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And then you've got one called the Marangu route, which uh is famous because it's lower days, so it's five to six days, but you actually sleep in huts on the way up.
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That route has the lowest summit success.
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So the true summit success of that is is probably 65 to about 72%.
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And you've got one called the La Mosho, which is kind of what we have as our bread and butter up from the west side of the mountain, where the summit success, which you climb over seven or eight days, is up over 90%.
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Uh, and then there's one final one that's that's well known called the Ronguy route, which climbs for the north, which is a little bit quieter.
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Summit success again is in the high 80s.
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So most people when they go to when they go to book, they look at these routes and go, right, which one do I fancy doing for what reason?
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And a lot of the consideration for most people is days off work.
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What can I afford to have days off work to come out and climb and come and go up the mountain?
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So I see there's a little bit of a dilemma for some people.
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If time is an issue, you're thinking, well, I need to do it in as few days as possible.
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If actually somebody is the priority, maybe you need to do it a little slower.
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Because basically what I heard is slower is better.
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And I also I had spent a little bit of time working with a client where I was put uh working out some itineraries on a couple of those routes.
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And what I recall is that there's days where you, you know, climb up but then you come back down.
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So there are climate acclimatization.
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What's the word?
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Climatization?
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Acclimatism.
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Well, we we should acclimation.
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Yeah, you say acclimation, I say acclimatization.
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That's because it's too hard to say acclimatization.
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That's got too many syllables.
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But anyway, that there's days where you might actually, you know, stay in camp and get up in the morning and hike up and then actually come back down.
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Is that right?
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Is that pretty consistent across all the routes?
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That there's some at least one day like that.
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That isn't consistent.
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It depends on what route you're doing.
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I suppose the the route that has the most opportunities to do that is the uh is the Lamosho route.
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So what you do on that route is you know, they've got a number of days where you're going higher than where you're sleeping.
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And what that does is it kind of tricks the body because you go up to that height, your body starts to acclimatise like you're a hat at that height, but you actually drop down.
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So what we tend to see on our climbs is there's there's one point where you go do a trek up to Lava Tower on the fourth day of your of your trip as you're climbing the mountain.
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That lava tower day, they're gonna they go from 4,000 metres up to 4,600 and then drop back down to 4,000 again.
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And if people get through that day, they only get stronger for the next 48 hours before they go from the summit.
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So it's a really good, really good opportunity to kind of trick the body, acclimatize a bit quicker.
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Um, and I suppose you know you're you are still climbing the mountain, what we call alpine style.
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So you're going up to the base camp, which is at 4650, 4'7, and then you go from the summit and come straight back down again.
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So we're acclimatising as best as possible without having to spend too long on the mountain.
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And just going back to what you said with Everest Base Camp, you're so right.
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So Everest Base Camp is a little bit lower.
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I think it's maybe four or five hundred meters lower than than Kilimanjaro, and it's it's a you know a trek through the valleys up to up to Everest Base Camp, and then you return back again.
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They they are two very different, but they have similar heights, but the the whole dynamic of how you do the trek is very different.
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Okay, I got it.
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I'm just being honest with you.
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What comes to my mind, or what I the question I really want to ask you is okay, so I grew up in the mountains and you know, spent time in the military, and I don't know if I'm lazy, but I think it was my dad taught me never go up unless you need to go up because you're gonna waste energy.
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So the first thing I think is like if you tell me, okay, we're gonna walk up today, nine, you know, 900 meters or whatever, and then we're gonna come back down, and then the next day we're gonna get up and go back again.
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I'd I think I'd give some pushback.
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So I'm curious, do do clients, do some clients have a little bit of a why are we doing that?
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That's dumb.
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I've if I make it up there, I don't want to come back down and have to go up again, or are people pretty good about accepting that, okay, this is just the way we do it?
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And it's overall it's advantageous for me.
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Yeah, that's that's a really good point.
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Um, and remind me not to get you on our trips then, Jason, if I see your name booking him for one.
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But uh yeah, the so you know you're you're very true.
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I think we're very lucky with the nature of the mountain on Kilimanjaro that it's a continuous route that you happen to go via these points that go up and down.
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So it's not uh up and back to the same point, say on that Lamosho route, it's a journey around the mountain.
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You feel like there's purpose to why you're doing it because you're trying to get to the next camp.
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And in order to get there, you get through some of these points.
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So that does cycloidally change it.
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But you know, you you look at there is there's a route called the Marangu route where you sleep, the ones you sleep in the huts.
00:15:47.259 --> 00:15:50.059
If you want to spend more time acclimatizing, that is what they do.
00:15:50.139 --> 00:15:58.220
They send you up on it, you you trek up and actually come back down to the same hut you were sleeping at the night before, and the whole purpose of it is just trying to speed up the acclimatization.
00:15:58.379 --> 00:15:59.659
When when do we not do it?
00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:14.779
We've only done it on a very small amount of times, and it might be say, for instance, we've got a customer that's climbing with us that they've not reacted very well to the altitude quite early on, and just often that is usually it's something genetic, it could be they've all they've got like a they've got an illness already that they didn't know of.
00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:19.340
You know, sometimes you can be a slightly ill, like or like a start of a flu that starts to happen.
00:16:19.419 --> 00:16:29.100
You can we can see the difference of that when they're at altitude, and if we spot that, we might skip doing one of those climb high, sleep do sleep low days if we can.
00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:36.139
And the only reason being is not just to put too much pressure on their body, just to try and make sure they can be a bit more gradual and we'll try and look after them a bit more.
00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:40.939
But majority of the time, if they can, we'll get them up to that height and then back down again.
00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:47.899
That lava tower day that you do on Kilimanjaro, that so many people know of if they've if they've climbed before, listen about it.
00:16:48.139 --> 00:16:53.580
When you climb up to that 4,600 meter point, you get there and have some lunch at the top, and it's really tiring.
00:16:53.659 --> 00:16:55.340
Like a lot of people want to fall asleep.
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:00.939
A lot of people feel it, they might have a slight headache, and then they descend down to 4,000, they actually feel much better again.
00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:06.860
And what by doing that, when you get to the final camp before you go from the summit, you've got rid of that issue.
00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:13.820
So you're not getting to the final camp before you go to the summit and feeling that tiredness, feeling that headache or whatever, you know, feeling those symptoms you might be feeling.
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.700
You feel okay.
00:17:14.779 --> 00:17:26.380
You're used to it, your body's acclimatized to it, and then mentally you're ready to go for the summit, which you know, the whole trip very much is like a holiday until the summit day, and then you have to, you know, then you have to earn the summit, as I as we say to the clients.
00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:27.019
Okay.
00:17:27.099 --> 00:17:31.579
Uh it's interesting that you said that because the next question I wanted to ask you was you you mentioned holiday.
00:17:31.820 --> 00:17:42.139
I guess the question is, do people like if I was at the bottom and people are coming down, they just finish summiting and they're coming down and we say to them, Wow, was that fun?
00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:44.139
Would they say yes, it was fun?
00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:46.539
Or is is like, no, it wasn't fun.
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:48.940
It sucked, but I did it, I feel good about myself.
00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:53.179
So I'm curious, is that does it depend on the person or does it suck for everybody?
00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:55.099
No, it does depend on the person.
00:17:55.179 --> 00:17:58.380
I think it depends how good your knees are when you're coming downhill.
00:17:59.179 --> 00:18:10.300
I think, yeah, I think it I think um I think for most people on that descent, they're obviously very tired because you've hit the summit, you start to descend off the mountain over over a period of about 36 hours, you descend off the mountain.
00:18:11.260 --> 00:18:19.019
Um a lot of people are very fatigued and tired um coming down the coming down the powerful the track back down to the very bottom gate before you get picked up.
00:18:19.659 --> 00:18:24.059
I think most people are really looking forward to getting a beer or a Coca-Cola when they get down to that last gate.
00:18:24.139 --> 00:18:33.420
But usually what happens is once they've done that and they've got back to the hotel and settled in and unpacked their bags and got sorted, then they're very much like, wow, what like what an experience.
00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:40.300
And then they look back on it, and you know, we've got WhatsApp groups that we have to keep open from like three years ago because uh people still chime up and talk about it.
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:46.139
We have one today, one of the groups go, we're chatting away from they climb with us in February and they're they're still chatting away in the groups.
00:18:46.300 --> 00:18:54.219
Yeah, but I do think it depends on the person, you know, because you if you're gonna be spending eight days on a mountain camping, you have got to, you know, you've got to enjoy it to some capacity.
00:18:54.539 --> 00:19:01.260
But some people go there because they see it as a bucket list opportunity to go and climb a mountain that high that requires no technical skills.
00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:07.579
And by the end of it, they're like, I'm very much looking forward to you know, not being in a tent or you know, having some privacy again.
00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:08.460
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:08.539 --> 00:19:12.860
I I I can I've spent enough time in the mountains and the military to to appreciate that.
00:19:13.099 --> 00:19:20.460
I remember, especially in the military, just times you're, you know, when there wasn't much happening and you're just sitting around with your buddies talking about what you're gonna eat when you get back.
00:19:20.619 --> 00:19:23.340
You know, that's remaining three more weeks, wouldn't it, Jason?
00:19:23.739 --> 00:19:23.980
Yeah.
00:19:24.219 --> 00:19:27.179
You just sit there and talk about pizza for three hours.
00:19:27.420 --> 00:19:29.980
Like, what kind of what kind of pizza are you gonna get?
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:31.820
You know, it's like, okay, well, interesting.
00:19:31.900 --> 00:19:34.699
But my one was um my one was always Burger King.
00:19:34.780 --> 00:19:35.340
I don't know why.
00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:40.619
It was it whenever I was away somewhere, especially in the military on my own expeditions, you'd be craving something, wouldn't you?
00:19:40.699 --> 00:19:41.340
You'd be thinking about it.
00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:42.940
Always it'd be a conversation piece.
00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:47.179
And for some reason, it's always like a greasy burger from Burger King.
00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:49.019
So I have no idea why.
00:19:49.179 --> 00:19:54.619
Um, not not you know, not not for any nice fresh food, anything like when you're eating ration, it's like, give me a Burger King.
00:19:54.860 --> 00:19:55.579
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:55.900 --> 00:19:56.539
And I get that.
00:19:56.619 --> 00:20:01.659
It's it's funny that you specifically said Burger King because I remember my my wife at the time.
00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:04.539
Actually, she wasn't my wife at the time, she was my fiance at the time.
00:20:04.699 --> 00:20:08.539
Her and I managed a lodge off the coast of Belize, a fishing and diving resort.
00:20:08.699 --> 00:20:11.900
And it was I won, you know, it was 30 miles offshore.
00:20:12.219 --> 00:20:16.940
If every once in a while we'd go into Belize City, there was a subway restaurant in Belize City.
00:20:17.019 --> 00:20:24.619
That was like we always we'd go to Subway just because it was the most um I it's like comfort food in a sense, but not r not great comfort food.
00:20:24.699 --> 00:20:28.460
But I remember she went back on to uh for a week to visit family or something.
00:20:28.539 --> 00:20:34.539
And I asked her, I said, when you before you leave the airport in Houston, would you go to the Burger King and get me a double whopper with cheese?
00:20:34.699 --> 00:20:37.739
So she got a double whopper with cheese, brought it in her carry-on bag.
00:20:37.820 --> 00:20:40.940
Of course, by the time I got it, it was three, four hours later, but it was amazing.
00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:41.739
It was so good.
00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:47.179
Because I'd been on the island probably for five months, and you know, it was like Burger King.
00:20:47.340 --> 00:20:49.420
It's uh it's weird what we th what we miss.
00:20:49.579 --> 00:20:53.739
But anyway, do our guess I I I do want to ask the well, a couple things.
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:58.460
You mentioned it's really not that technical, but help our listeners understand what technical is.
00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:08.139
So I guess the question is can I get all the way up the mountain without ever putting my hands on a rock, or can I just walk, or do I need to actually, are there spots where I need to climb over stuff?
00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:09.820
Yeah, that's a really good question.
00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:13.579
So then there are there are routes that you can do that just require you to trek all the way up.
00:21:13.739 --> 00:21:23.900
And there is one section for for some of the routes which is called the Branco Wall, which which, you know, you still walk up it, but there's one or two sections of the Branco wall that you have to use your hands on some rocks.
00:21:23.980 --> 00:21:32.300
There's one section called a kissing rock, you try to edge around a rock and have to put your hands on the rock, and there's one section where you kind of have to use your hands to get up over and over the top.
00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:37.340
Um, so that's probably where some people say they're slightly scared of heights or scared about that that that side.
00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:41.659
We have to make sure we've got people next to them throughout the whole time they go through the Branco wall.
00:21:41.820 --> 00:21:52.460
It takes, you know, you walk in most of it, it takes like maybe about an hour to get over the Branco Wall with those two or three what we call choke points, where kind of there's just a one way to get through and you have to use your hands a bit.
00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:55.980
But the rest of it is a walk, especially on the summit night, it's a walk all the way up to the top.
00:21:56.059 --> 00:22:01.739
You kind of zigzag your way up a uh scree slope, and it's kind of like a set path through the scree slope all the way to the top.
00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:05.980
So um, you know, when we say technical, we think, you know, no need to use ropes.
00:22:06.219 --> 00:22:08.780
There's no need for you to have any previous skills at all.
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:16.460
So we get I'd say actually majority of our customers that come to us have probably never been up a mountain before, and this is their first real experience of doing it.
00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.019
So um that kind of tells you all you need to know.
00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:19.579
Okay.
00:22:19.739 --> 00:22:21.659
Yeah, no, that that absolutely does.
00:22:21.980 --> 00:22:31.500
Because it sounds like even if you don't have, you know, because some people might think climbing, they worry about upper body strength or, you know, stuff like that, but it sounds like uh that's not too much of a shoot.
00:22:31.739 --> 00:22:31.900
Okay.
00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:36.619
But I know that some of your past guests are gonna listen to this, some of your future guests are gonna listen to this.
00:22:36.860 --> 00:22:42.219
But I'm curious, are there people that just like kind of physically maybe they can do it?
00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:52.059
You know, they don't get injured, they don't get sick, but just they kind of bit off a little bit more than they can chew and get to day three, day four, day five and say, you know what?
00:22:52.219 --> 00:22:59.420
Either straight out I don't want to keep going, or I was gonna say develop some sort of mysterious injury that that they can't keep going.
00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:03.019
So just share whatever you're willing to share about that.
00:23:03.099 --> 00:23:08.780
Is that is that even a thing or because you know uh because again both you and I were in the military.
00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:15.820
We we had mysterious injuries that would pop up sometimes when people just I don't know, I'm not gonna say it, needed a break.
00:23:16.059 --> 00:23:16.300
No.
00:23:16.860 --> 00:23:18.460
No, I know you I know what you're getting to.
00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:19.500
I know what you're getting to.
00:23:20.300 --> 00:23:23.820
Actually I I was just trying to think then in my head have we have we had any that have gone through that.
00:23:23.980 --> 00:23:32.780
No, we we haven't personally it's very rare because actually the mount that that that trek that you do throughout on Kilimanjaro is actually really really engaging.
00:23:32.860 --> 00:23:34.219
So every day is very different.
00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:49.340
You get some people that'll miss home a little bit especially children that'll come up on the climb but we'll try and facilitate look after them by finding them signals so they can speak to home and it's very rare on those lead up days that you get that where people are just like wanting to tap out and be like no this ain't for me.
00:23:49.500 --> 00:24:00.380
Because like day one the climb you're going through the rainforest you see some different species of monkey like the blue monkey black and white collabus monkey as you're going up then you go through the mourn zone and then you go into this alpine desert.
00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:07.980
So every day feels so different and very engaging and you know you've got chefs making your food you've got like you know hot drinks on tap.
00:24:08.219 --> 00:24:13.260
I say to people I literally live on Milo and tea on the on the way up the Killerman shower every time I climb.
00:24:14.699 --> 00:24:17.980
So you know I don't think that but you do get on Summit night.
00:24:18.059 --> 00:25:11.579
On Summit night you do get some people and we've made the mistake previously before probably not being um uh what do I say honest enough or probably brutal enough probably brutal enough probably be a bit too nice where people are a bit like oh I don't want to carry on going now or you know there's a there's there's a section called Stellar Point which is the top of the crater so you get up to you you basically spend all night through the darkness going up to get to the summit and you get on top of the crater and we try and plan you for you to get there for sunrise like literally at sunrise and you get there and you feel like you're at the top but actually you've got like another hour around the edge of the crater to get to the the the the actual highest point um which you call it huru when people get to Stella sometimes we know we've had it in the past where they get there and like no I don't want to carry on I'm so tired I can't carry on where you know we know they're okay we know their O2 stats have been okay we know from watching them trek throughout that night and how they're reacting and talking they're okay.
00:25:11.739 --> 00:25:23.980
But we've been a bit too nice and be like okay if you don't want to carry on whereas we've learned our lesson now and sometimes because we know they'll get back down off the mountain regret not doing that 45 minutes hour extra of trekking to get to that next point.
00:25:24.219 --> 00:25:40.219
So you know literally we had a briefing with a team about it a few weeks ago about actually you know recognise whether it's a medical issue and we have to turn them around but actually recognise if it's just a mental issue and we can push them a bit silly things like literally just holding their hand and being like no come on we're gonna carry on going and just holding their hand they'll keep going with you.
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:44.699
Or you know we we we take the bags off them and try and get them there.
00:25:44.780 --> 00:26:04.940
But we have in the past had people you know on that summit night where they they start going up and it's and it is scary in the middle of the night going up to the highest freestanding mountain in the world trying to get up onto the summit and it's cold I'm I'm talking in in degrees here but minus 15 minus 10 degrees you know it can be for people who have never done anything like that before it's extremely scary.
00:26:05.260 --> 00:26:14.539
Yeah we have had one or two people that might have not had the fitness levels or the mental capacity to go up they've been like no turn round and go back down again but you know majority of the time people are are pretty good.
00:26:14.619 --> 00:26:15.500
They're pretty impressive.
00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:19.659
Most people impress me on summit night with that that grit and determination just to keep moving.
00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:20.460
That's very cool.
00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:30.380
And I I like what you're saying about finding that balancing act between encouraging someone to push themselves and achieve something, but at the same time they paid you a bunch of money to be there.
00:26:31.340 --> 00:26:32.460
You're working for them.
00:26:32.699 --> 00:26:35.500
So I'm curious have you do you do this?
00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:59.659
Do you think it's or is it something that maybe came out of your meeting recently is maybe have that conversation with guests before they even start or at the first night maybe about kind of what to expect so that when you say one more mile, they like they expected you to say one more mile and they've already had some time to think about it as opposed to just, oh wow, I'm much tired than I thought I I feel like I'm gonna die.
00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:05.659
But then Jack you come over and say remember when I told you three nights ago that at some point you're gonna feel like you're gonna die?
00:27:05.820 --> 00:27:06.460
That's normal.
00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:09.099
Everybody does and we're gonna go one more mile.
00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:28.460
Just curious does that yeah we were yeah we do we've tried different methods and I suppose the one we found works really well on Kilimanjaro is is you know if I just tell a bit of a story of this people you know they come on the plane and they look out the window and they often the the flight route into Kilimanjaro airport you go past the mountain in between Kilimanjaro and Mount Meru.
00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:44.619
So you go between the mountains you can look out and see them and a lot of people look at it go am I allowed to swear on this I don't know what's the rules Jason are you allowed to swear yeah I just I have to just check the explicit box when I upload okay well I'll only say it then but people look at it and go, people look at it and go, oh my God.
00:27:44.780 --> 00:27:48.300
And and you know they suddenly because it's it's just this massive mountain out of nowhere.
00:27:48.380 --> 00:27:57.420
It's not connected to any of the mountains it's on its own and so people start to get nervous and they start stressing when they when they get to the hotel and see it and it's a pretty like a wow factor.
00:27:57.579 --> 00:28:24.380
So when we do our briefing we we're really transparent we talk through you know dealing with altitude what the camp looks like introduction to guides they get they're going to be climbing with um you know all the different routines they see on the mountain but even before that we actually send them things out so we send them emails with all their information right down to like some Swahili words they can learn to speak to some of the team and um and then we do a video call like like this one but we do it before they arrive in Tanzania to go through those.
00:28:24.619 --> 00:28:31.659
We I tell them a little bit about the summit night but I the main thing I say is look, you know the summit night is the biggest challenge you're gonna have on the whole climb.
00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:52.300
We don't tell them too much about it until we get there because otherwise people start to overthink it and stress and actually I've found in the past people stressing actually result in having more issues with altitude with illness with worry and not eating properly and all those things that you know it's like a uh it's like anxiety isn't it if you have a bit of anxiety if you let it grow and grow and grow it just spirals out of control.
00:28:52.699 --> 00:28:58.460
Yeah because if you tell if you tell somebody on Monday Saturday's really gonna suck.
00:28:58.780 --> 00:29:04.619
Yeah you get ready for Saturday it's gonna suck then by Wednesday you're totally psyched out.
00:29:04.699 --> 00:29:07.340
You're like oh my gosh what am I doing here issues.
00:29:07.579 --> 00:29:26.619
I also imagined you guys I don't know if you know uh the name Tony Robbins there's probably a few names but Tony Robbins yeah they kind of call him a motivational speaker or whatever but I can imagine you guys playing a Tony Tony Robbins soundtrack or something that night before you start going or you know there's some sort of motivational you can do it you could do it but anyway.
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:32.380
Well the weirdest thing about that is like you know we we've done that before we've like played some music or do like have a quick chat with them.
00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:42.300
But it's quite comical because obviously you walk up Kilwanjaro very slowly like you know you say poly poly in Swaini which means slowly and you know you give that big motivational speech and you're like right let's go.
00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:46.139
They just set off at like this one mile hour pace for hours through the night.
00:29:46.219 --> 00:29:48.219
So it kind of like wears off very quickly.
00:29:48.780 --> 00:29:56.219
So what we what we do on that sub what we say to people on that summit night is we're like you know we try and make sure that they um they understand what they're gonna go through.
00:29:56.380 --> 00:30:02.380
They don't worry too much if things happen and we're very lucky we have a big team that go up on the on up on the summit with them.
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:14.699
So let's say Jason you're climbing with 14 other people and as it says 15 of you there's in our team there's probably going to be around 18 people climbing in our team with you alongside you.
00:30:15.099 --> 00:30:28.780
So that's going to be a mixture mainly guides uh of which majority of the guides that that are in our business have summited I think our average summits over 150 times and then the other people that are helping will be aspirational guides.
00:30:28.940 --> 00:30:33.980
So people that are porters currently that are usually younger and they have this aspiration to become guides in the future.
00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:46.300
So what we do is we say well look if you want to climb to summit we'll pay you extra so you can build your experience and you know for those people that come up on the summit and help help clients as well they've always summited more than 10 to 15 times.
00:30:46.539 --> 00:30:54.380
So we've got a super experienced team that go up with them and that that what that allows is say you feel fantastic and you're like Jack's walking way too slow for me.
00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:57.980
I need to keep moving it because I'm starting to feel cold you can you go off at your pace.
00:30:58.059 --> 00:31:02.860
And then we just communicate on radios throughout the night as you're you know as we're climbing at that up to the top.
00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:11.900
But yeah, you know we try and we we prepare people as best as possible but then we have to kind of in the moment really look after them and just make them feel as safe as possible just to keep taking one step at a time.
00:31:12.139 --> 00:31:23.739
So basically what I heard there is you've got enough staff and guides and people that have summited that pretty much every guest could potentially have somebody to walk with them and encourage them and is that did I get that math right?
00:31:23.820 --> 00:31:43.420
So yeah yeah something we introduced quite early on when we're operating because you know the biggest outlay for us as a business is staff and that's where you one of our biggest challenges our company if I talk about like you know for me looking at the business side is our price point is a little bit is a little bit more than the average and that's because we're how much we pay the staff and also how many staff members climb with us.
00:31:51.099 --> 00:31:53.739
So it might be staff numbers or it'd definitely be staff pay.
00:31:53.900 --> 00:31:57.340
So for us you know on the mountain that's something that is really important.
00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:27.980
You don't want to be climbing with a small amount of support team because if certain individuals have to turn around and go back down again you're only making that support team smaller and smaller and you know we've we've noticed so many situations on the mountain with other other teams we've had to step in and support them whether it be with oxygen with medical support because they just weren't prepared for that you know then they've got these group of clients with with a just a number of support teams so that's why we've introduced it and I suppose the other reason we introduced it was just for pacing because some people are great altitude and want to walk at a normal pace and not get too cold.
00:32:28.139 --> 00:32:35.099
Other people need to walk really slowly you know I think the slowest the average from the base camp to the summit is usually probably about seven and a half hours.
00:32:35.260 --> 00:32:37.579
I think the slowest I've had is 14 hours.
00:32:37.739 --> 00:32:42.059
So that gives you gives you you know perception of what we can see there in terms of time range.
00:32:42.139 --> 00:32:46.059
Now that is a bit of an anomaly but we can we can often go up to about 10 hours.
00:32:46.219 --> 00:32:52.619
So we just need to be we we try and make sure we do everything we can to get that person to the top as long as it's safe.
00:32:53.420 --> 00:33:04.860
I I'm happy that that came up because it reminds me of some conversations I've had recently with operators that do you know other type of tracking or actually I just spoke with someone that does swimming medications.
00:33:05.019 --> 00:33:16.460
And the the common thread is when people sign up to go on a group trip that has some physical challenges, I think a very common concern is I don't want to slow everybody else down.
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:18.300
I don't want to be the slowest one.
00:33:18.460 --> 00:33:31.420
I don't want to be the one who's you know waiting for me because if you've ever climbed anything with other people there's always that person that moves fast and they get to the top and or not to the top they get a third of the way up but they stop and they wait for you.
00:33:31.579 --> 00:33:36.780
And then when you finally catch up with them, they're like, okay, let's go wait a minute I need a break.
00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:47.420
So so do you do you see that with uh your inquiries as well do you get people that are like hey I'm a little concerned I don't want to be the slowest one and it sounds like you figured that out by having enough staff.
00:33:47.739 --> 00:33:54.780
Yeah yeah we do we we you know we don't get a lot like a lot of people that tend to want to come and do this relatively like have quite quite a lot of self-confidence.
00:33:55.099 --> 00:34:07.340
But yeah we do get a handful of clients who come to us and that that is a big concern for them is they want to join a group trip but also don't want to feel that they're going to be the the weight dragging them dragging them back, you know so yes, yeah we do we do.
00:34:07.420 --> 00:34:13.739
And I suppose you know what we try and do there is give them a lot of support beforehand, give them training programs to help them get physically prepared for it.
00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:23.019
But most of the time as you probably know it's in your head more than anything so yeah we are lucky with Kilimanjaro because the whole thing built round is poly poly.
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:28.059
You know people literally have it on their t-shirts and it's like go slow, go slow to acclimatize.
00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:33.980
So our team are often setting the pace to you know to to make sure that you are acclimatizer.
00:34:34.059 --> 00:34:51.659
You know actually a lot of the people that we see have issues on the mountain the ones that try and speed off too fast and probably push their bodies a little bit too much early on in the climb and then then have to either really slow down because they're getting so tired or the attitude just starts to you know slowly chip away at them a little bit and they they've been pushing their bodies too hard.
00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:57.179
So I usually say actually it's better to go slower you know the slower you go the the the better you're gonna acclimatize on the way up.
00:34:57.579 --> 00:35:08.219
Curious if if I were to poll, maybe I should a week after so they've they've come back down, they've had their beer they did whatever they they sat in the swimming pool at the lodge or whatever.
00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:14.300
Maybe a few days later and then I were to go poll everybody and the only question I asked them is what was your favorite part?
00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:16.460
Is there a consistent answer?
00:35:16.619 --> 00:35:19.500
Like most people it's not the summit.
00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:20.539
Yeah it's not the summit.
00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:37.740
I had a feeling it wasn't gonna be that's why I think yeah yeah it's not you know there's some people that do and we we do say to people when they get onto the summit because often you're so tired you've been awake all night you've been awake you know and not slept whatsoever and you've been trekking for nine ten hours and you are really and you're at high altitude so just slightly walking gets you out of breath.
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:51.019
So you know up on the summit we do tell people as long as they're medically okay and we don't need to turn them around and bring them straight down again we do tell people literally get away from the sign away from everyone go and sit down over there and just take these views in for 10 minutes because you will forget them.
00:35:51.180 --> 00:36:06.940
If you don't you'll get down and be like it's such a blur but um I think you know I think for a lot of people uh if you know if you if you ask people what the favourite bits are it's often even things small things like the time in the mess tent in the evenings we've got those dome we have those dome based camp mess tents that we bring up the mountain with us.
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:15.980
So it's the time in the evenings having drinks and playing cards and chatting and laughing and then getting to meet other people I actually think one of the ones that people really love is the views.
00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:27.500
The beauty of Kilamanjara is because you have the rainforest that surrounds it the cloud level is often lower than you are a lot of the views that you are spend on the mountain is you're you're above the clouds looking down on them.
00:36:27.740 --> 00:36:34.700
And most people haven't experienced that before because I suppose the only time you might do is if you've experienced cloud inversion in lower lower in the lower hills.
00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:46.380
So I think that's the other one a lot of people go look wake up in the morning and looking at your tendency and that is is there is there some of their favourite moments and I suppose one more which resonates with me as well is the lack of signal.
00:36:46.539 --> 00:37:04.780
So people can really disconnect from life from their phones and everything and I suppose just go back I say go back to how it was when you didn't have your phone buzzing off every few minutes, you know, and distracting you and you know you can really just switch off there and just take all in and go back to having normal conversations and which I think is often you know is it's changed quite a lot in in our lifetime.
00:37:05.019 --> 00:37:19.180
I a little bit earlier I had a question pop into my head it drifted away and then it just came back in and I it's we're gonna backtrack a little bit to when we were talking about you know use the word I don't know discovered the German team that discovered the mountain.
00:37:19.340 --> 00:37:32.140
And of course if we look at this from a global cultural conversation somebody could say what do you mean they discovered it there were people there already weren't there so maybe we could say the discovered by Western explorers or whatever.
00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:36.460
But obviously there were people in that area long before the Germans ever got there.
00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:39.019
So and I'm not questioning your use of the word discover.
00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:40.059
I don't I know what you mean.
00:37:40.140 --> 00:37:40.619
I get it.
00:37:40.780 --> 00:37:49.579
And do you do you know enough about the the history like can you imagine that maybe locals used to climb the mountain for some reason?
00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:51.099
Is there any way to know that?
00:37:51.420 --> 00:38:19.180
It's like because we tend to talk about who's the first person to summit it and it's usually a German a Swiss guy an English guy you know that type of thing but I'm curious is there any reason to believe that perhaps other people climbed it before the white man showed up yeah there is so I suppose there's there's there's no evidence of it whatsoever and I suppose if I go back and talk about a history of the mountain there's um the main tribe in and around this region was the and still is now is the Chaga tribe.
00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:23.099
So there's about a hundred there's just over 140 tribes all throughout Tanzania.
00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:33.180
Obviously at that time there wasn't there wasn't really a Tanzania there was all it was weird lines draw drawn on maps and there's tribal sections so it was a Chaga tribe that were located at the bottom of the mountain.
00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:53.820
Chaga tribe are very very famous for being very entrepreneurial um now 100% they were going up onto the mountains so they were hunting in the rainforest um for the you know monkeys for food so blue monkeys for food collabus monkeys were used for witchcraft their tails were used for those things but then also they did farm up on the higher flatlands of what you call the Shira Plateau.
00:38:54.059 --> 00:39:39.180
So you you have that tribe so they were going up onto Shira Plateau now the you know there's still speculation where the name comes from Kalima in Swahili means mountain so that's where the Kalima they think the mountain comes from Jaro you know has kind of historic elements in Chaga and Swahili of of meaning like whiteness the mountain of whiteness so that's where they think the name comes from but a lot of the Chaga tribe used to think that the mountain was like cursed so wouldn't really want to go and wouldn't climb up up high high on the mountain so I think that's probably one reason why they might not have done in the past but I definitely know 100% that they were up on the mountain exploring um that Shira plateau they used to farm their cows there and actually an interesting story.
00:39:39.260 --> 00:40:10.059
The reason it's called Shira an old word meaning war is because the the Maasai which is a very famous tribe I'm sure you know Maasai they they you know they they come from Ethiopia and came south and the Maasai tribe are very very famous for looking after um well well basically cows mainly so um they do do goats and things they have cows and their main belief is that you know their other tribes would not have should not have cows and if they come across other tribes with tribes with cows they would kill them and take the cows.
00:40:10.220 --> 00:40:21.900
And there that there was a big war on the Shira plateau between the Chaga and the Maasai because of the the Maasai came from Kenya over onto the plateau and came across these Chaga tribe with cows and then decided well let's go to war.
00:40:22.059 --> 00:40:44.700
So there was definitely activity on the mountain 100% yeah you're you're totally you are totally totally right I think there's a really important element there of understanding what the local tribes and local you know I suppose there are local tribes in the area how they lived on the mountain what they explored I suppose you know when um as you said earlier when we say discovered we mean um mut that that that this mountain's knowledge was passed up into the into the Western world.
00:40:44.940 --> 00:41:08.940
So yes It's interesting how we look at things in in in life sometimes I I get what you're saying yeah but what I hear you saying is you you don't think or your best guess is that probably none of the locals at the time would actually summit the mountain for any particular reason and that maybe they might actually resist the whatever desire because of spiritual or or other other reasons.
00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:09.660
Is that right?
00:41:09.980 --> 00:41:35.900
Yeah that's that's correct although when they did climb um they they did climb with local teams so it wasn't just them that summited and actually there's a even still now there's like a there's a family line so the first um we say Tanzanian now the first Tanzanian to summit his family line there is still now one guy that operates on the mountain which I think is like the great great grandson of the person that guided the guide on the mountain going up.
00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:50.300
So um you know so yes there and and also there was like multiple failed attempts of climbing Kilimanjaro before it was actually achieved that again also tells you where there's no previous knowledge of of how the mountain was climbed I I you know I haven't got a clue.
00:41:51.900 --> 00:42:02.860
I'd like to think that's probably a pretty cool story if someone going you know what lived on the foothills were like I'm just gonna go up that this over the next over the next week or two and just see if I make it to top and did it pretty cool story.
00:42:03.820 --> 00:42:16.860
You gotta wonder because there's obviously a lot of people in the world now and for at least the last hundred years or so that looked at mountains and said we should climb that for no reason other than we should climb it.
00:42:17.019 --> 00:42:27.099
So is it maybe a little bit strange for us to think that people couldn't have had that same thought 500 years ago maybe I don't know that's so true so true.
00:42:27.500 --> 00:42:29.820
Who are who are we to you know who are we to guess?
00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:35.579
Yeah I think the um the I suppose the only counterargument I have there is just the cultural differences.
00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:53.740
So for us for instance you know if you look at the Western world it's very exploratory in terms of they want to you know you want to go out and find these different places and find new areas explore try and climb these mountains you come across what would I say is the the the culture here is like complete contentness.
00:42:53.980 --> 00:43:07.980
So they they are so content with life and actually the the what what they they they call what we would call white people coming into Tanzania or throughout certain areas of Africa the word is mzungul or wazungul for multiple.
00:43:08.220 --> 00:43:12.140
And mzung means direct translation is like a wanderer of no purpose.
00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:19.180
So so um so so so uh it's it's like a really funny translation which is actually quite quite true.
00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:20.780
You know they're just like what are they doing?
00:43:20.860 --> 00:43:22.380
Like why are they going up that mountain?
00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:37.420
Honestly you know I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk a little bit about I'd like to talk a little bit about our team one amazing people that are the kindest people and um extremely strong and then they you know they are just so content like so so content.
00:43:37.579 --> 00:43:52.539
And I often think it's a real contrast for me traveling between the UK and here where you go to the UK and it's like go go go more more better cars, better bigger house all thing you go here, you get you you're here in in moshy Tanzania and it's so different.
00:43:52.619 --> 00:43:53.660
They're just so content.
00:43:53.820 --> 00:44:02.460
If they've got food and they've got friends they're they're they're happy you know they'll be happy to sit under a tree and they're just so content with life and I think there's actually something to be learned from that as well.
00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:09.340
For me I'm trying not to you know when you're trying to build a business you have to keep working but there is an element of actually just enjoy your time whilst you're there.
00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:18.300
I've had a few conversations with people that are from outside of Africa that moved to Africa, started businesses and yeah I I see some common threads.
00:44:18.380 --> 00:44:26.860
I've spent a little bit of time in Africa and yeah it's but the same thing that you know you can love about a culture can also be the same thing that's very frustrating.
00:44:27.180 --> 00:44:40.059
I know even even here in Latin America even here in Latin America I love that the family you know is so important that people just they just spend a lot of time together and they move slow and they like to talk and all this stuff.
00:44:40.220 --> 00:44:41.500
And I love that about them.
00:44:41.579 --> 00:44:55.340
But then when I'm on a sidewalk behind a family of eight that are all covered, you know, completely filling the sidewalk walking as slow as humanly possible and just rambling on about this and that or their kids rolling around on the sidewalk and I just got to get around them.
00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:59.740
And I have to remind myself I'm like, but this is what I love about them.
00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:08.140
So I suspect there's a the same you let's go yeah you can relate Let's uh if if you're ready now, let's take let's discuss your team a little bit.
00:45:08.300 --> 00:45:16.380
Because I still want to get into your personal history, but I want to make sure that we kind of, you know, not not finish where we're at on this, but I want to talk a little bit about your team.
00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:18.300
Seems like a good opportunity to do that.
00:45:18.460 --> 00:45:23.500
And then we're gonna go back to your childhood and dig into your traumas and figure out why you've done all these things you've done.
00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:24.140
How does that sound?
00:45:24.460 --> 00:45:24.780
Sounds great.
00:45:24.860 --> 00:45:25.579
We haven't got long belt.
00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:26.539
Sounds great, doesn't it?
00:45:26.860 --> 00:45:27.260
That sounds fun.
00:45:27.579 --> 00:45:28.700
Where'd you want to start, Jason?
00:45:29.180 --> 00:45:30.220
Shall I talk a little bit about the team?
00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:31.420
And uh Yeah, yeah.
00:45:31.500 --> 00:45:38.140
I'd love to know kind of how how you built the team, what are some of the things um that you that you learned along the way?
00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:43.019
And uh yeah, just whatever you want to share about your team because I know that you can't do it without them.
00:45:43.340 --> 00:45:44.460
Yes, yeah, exactly that.
00:45:44.539 --> 00:45:46.780
Yeah, I mean it's probably a real passionate point for me.
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:49.660
And actually for me, now it's a big driver for growing the business.
00:45:49.740 --> 00:45:59.340
I suppose when you set a business up, there's usually a purpose for you doing it, which is you know that what why you're trying to build it, but there's also a selfish fact factor, which is you've got to build it for yourself as well.
00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:05.980
So I started like that with a company and then it kind of changed pretty dramatically once you got to know the team and build relationships out here.
00:46:06.140 --> 00:46:18.539
I built the company here with a fellow Tanzanian, and um and you know, we started off a very, very small team because we only had small bookings and we could operate with a small team and a limited amount of a kit and equipment.
00:46:18.700 --> 00:46:21.420
And obviously, as it's grown, we've been building a team as we go.
00:46:21.660 --> 00:46:27.820
So I suppose the story for most people in the area and actually throughout Tanzania, some of our team are from like western Tanzania.
00:46:28.140 --> 00:46:37.340
Um so they're traveling like you know, they're traveling 10 hours to come and do work on a bus and to come and work on a mountain and travel back again um back towards Lake Victoria.
00:46:38.220 --> 00:46:52.700
It's a big work opportunity in Tanzania, and Tanzania has I'll probably say a bizarre economy in the sense of you know, there is it is it's you know, the economy is relatively strong, but actually there is not a huge amount of job opportunities for the growth in the population.
00:46:52.780 --> 00:46:54.940
So a lot of people are quite entrepreneurial.
00:46:55.099 --> 00:47:06.619
They will be trying to buy and sell things on the street, they'll be setting up stands on the streets, try and sell things in markets, and any way they can they'll try and find a way of making a little bit of money to you know to be self-sufficient.
00:47:07.099 --> 00:47:11.340
What the mountain has done is offered a massive opportunity for work, you know.
00:47:11.420 --> 00:47:14.539
So when you first climbed Kilimanjaro back in the day, you could just rock up.
00:47:14.619 --> 00:47:18.059
We could rock up with backpacks and go and climb it, get your permits, go and climb.
00:47:18.220 --> 00:47:21.500
Whereas now there is a there is a rule where you have to climb with a local company.
00:47:21.740 --> 00:47:32.300
When we when we were, you know, I suppose looking at that, that's the best thing about the opportunity is it means it gives, you know, when you come if you're paying to come and climb Kilimanjaro, it's not just a selfish factor of I'm gonna go and climb the mountain.
00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:33.980
You're also giving a lot of people work.
00:47:34.140 --> 00:47:40.059
And for me, building the company now and offering more and more climbs, the more we can offer, more work we can give the team.
00:47:40.140 --> 00:47:42.619
So it's a it's a it's a real win-win for us.
00:47:42.940 --> 00:47:47.180
So um the team's responsibility on the mountain is you've you've got different levels.
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:48.619
So you've got guides.
00:47:48.940 --> 00:48:03.500
Guides 99.99% of the time start as porters and they work as porters, they maybe start to learn English, then they go to guide school, then they start to get employment as a guide until they're a really well-established guide with experience.
00:48:03.740 --> 00:48:07.180
So that's the kind of pathway they've gone through to become that guide.
00:48:07.340 --> 00:48:09.500
And they're they're really usually experienced.
00:48:09.579 --> 00:48:12.300
So, like I said, a lot of our team are over 150 summits.
00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:19.340
I think we've got one or two team members that are over 250 in our team, which is you know pretty incredible if you think about it, especially when they're not even that old.
00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:21.820
So they've been on the mountain a lot and climbed a lot.
00:48:22.059 --> 00:48:26.059
And then you've got Jack, Jack, can I ask you a question about the guides?
00:48:26.140 --> 00:48:30.780
And maybe this is a more general question about just the people that work on the mountain, which we're gonna discuss.
00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:44.460
But so, like in the US, at the point in time when I decided that I wanted to be a guide, it was like, I want to be a guide because it sounds fun, it sounds, it's sexy, it's like cool, and I won't make very much money, but I don't care.
00:48:44.619 --> 00:48:50.300
So, like when I told my family I'm gonna go be a guide, they're like, Well, how the heck are you gonna make a living out of that?
00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:51.180
What's wrong with you?
00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:51.900
Da-da-da.
00:48:52.220 --> 00:48:53.900
You're so smart, you could go do other things.
00:48:54.220 --> 00:48:56.220
It's just what I heard, okay, from my family.
00:48:56.380 --> 00:49:04.220
And and I'm imagining that maybe in Tanzania, it's like just like when you just say the word porter, that just sounds like a hard job, right?
00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:09.660
But you're saying it's good, you know, there's not a lot of other great jobs and it's a good opportunity.
00:49:09.820 --> 00:49:12.460
It's a it's a it's a boom for them and their families.
00:49:12.619 --> 00:49:18.220
So I'm imagining a family with a bunch of kids and one of them says, I got a job as a porter on the mountain.
00:49:18.380 --> 00:49:19.420
It's like that's awesome.
00:49:19.579 --> 00:49:21.260
And the guy's like, Yeah, I'm gonna make money.
00:49:21.340 --> 00:49:22.059
I've got money.
00:49:22.300 --> 00:49:25.740
My job is really hard because I got to carry stuff up a mountain.
00:49:25.900 --> 00:49:28.380
Um, so it's so those seem like a contrast.
00:49:28.539 --> 00:49:33.579
Is that really is what I'm saying kind of is it relevant to this conversation?
00:49:34.059 --> 00:49:35.340
Yeah, no, it definitely does.
00:49:35.420 --> 00:49:35.980
It definitely does.
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:46.140
So we with guides, what you tend to see is people want to become guides often because it's a better financial opportunity because the pay scales are higher for you doing a guide versus being a chef or a porter.
00:49:46.539 --> 00:49:57.500
So naturally, they'll you know, if you if you think you have the capacity to go to guide and learn English and speak and look after clients at that higher level, yeah, people are like, you know, that's the big aspiration for people.
00:49:57.660 --> 00:50:03.579
The biggest, the biggest like I suppose, roadblock for them getting to that point though is being able to afford guide school.
00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:07.740
So um paying for paying to go to guide school is very expensive.
00:50:08.059 --> 00:50:12.460
So the porter wage doesn't quite translate well to guide school.
00:50:12.539 --> 00:50:18.300
So often they'll need a sponsor or they've need they're gonna have to save very well, which you know is more and more challenging to do.
00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:23.740
So you know, that's that's the biggest step and issue that you see with people becoming guides.
00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:34.780
Uh, and then obviously once you become a guide, it's getting your foot in the door of a company to actually be able to guide consistently, otherwise, you might have to go back to working as a porch on the side as well as doing guide jobs.
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:46.539
You you mentioned because you mentioned earlier that the people there tend to be very kind of content so and don't seem to be worried as worried about like status and and things like that.
00:50:46.700 --> 00:50:53.900
So I'm curious the the typical mountain guide that is well employed, you know, he's he's doing fine as far as financially.
00:50:53.980 --> 00:51:02.220
And if you go to them and say, okay, would you rather be a mountain guide or would you rather be trip San Arusha and you make the same amount of money?
00:51:02.380 --> 00:51:06.380
What do you what kind of response would I expect to get from the typical guide?
00:51:06.700 --> 00:51:08.300
Because I say that question.
00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:13.260
I say that because like fly fishing guides are like, I'm a fly fishing guide, you know.
00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:18.700
Some mountain guides from the in the US would be like, I'm a you know, senior mountain guide, da-da-da.
00:51:18.940 --> 00:51:22.380
I'm a, you know, I I get to go to the bar and people ask me what I do.
00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:23.260
I'm a guide.
00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:32.860
I I take people up that big ass mountain back there, and they it's it's almost an ego-driven thing, which maybe, you know, you and I can relate to people like that, maybe even a real little like that.
00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:33.340
I don't know.
00:51:33.500 --> 00:51:37.019
But do you get that same type of thing in Kansas?
00:51:37.980 --> 00:51:41.180
You don't tend to get the ego-driven side of things.
00:51:41.260 --> 00:51:46.140
You get the um, you know, the comparison there of what kind of trips you want to deliver as a guide.
00:51:46.300 --> 00:51:50.780
So, for instance, safari guiding is quite well sought after, but it's a lot harder to get into.
00:51:50.860 --> 00:51:57.660
Um, if you go through, you know, the proper safari guiding school, it's three years, and then you've got to somehow try and find a vehicle to guide out of.
00:51:57.740 --> 00:51:59.500
So those stages are much more difficult.
00:51:59.740 --> 00:52:09.900
So you've got that, but then with the mountain, I would say, you know, if I asked our team, would you rather be doing the one-day trips in Arusha or in Moshi, or would you rather be on the mountain?
00:52:10.059 --> 00:52:11.260
They would say the mountain.
00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:14.860
And they genuinely love being on the mountain and working on there.
00:52:15.019 --> 00:52:20.619
Uh, and I think they're very proud of being guides as well, and and but not in the ego sense-driven word.
00:52:20.700 --> 00:52:24.059
It's like, you know, they're proud because of what they've accomplished or what they do on the mountain.
00:52:24.220 --> 00:52:27.260
A lot of them are very proud of the history of the mountain and their tribe.
00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:35.420
But you know, the the I can't I suppose a bit like the honour it gives them and their families when they, you know, uh, you know, one of some of our guides, one called Nelson.
00:52:35.500 --> 00:52:45.260
I know that he's really proud because he's got three children, he's got a son and two daughters, and he he can, you know, he can show them that he's working hard and prove to them that they can they can accomplish something as well.
00:52:45.500 --> 00:52:50.460
So uh I would probably say you tend to fit into your need that people like to do.
00:52:50.619 --> 00:53:03.420
So if you if you're doing your one-day trips in Arusha or Moshi elsewhere, you tend to probably be very good at English and you're happy to dot around and do the odd one here, then there, but then people I think if you work on a mountain, you usually are pretty much set on the mountain.
00:53:03.500 --> 00:53:13.740
Um, unless you know, like you know, your knees start to go and then they might move down to the bottom of the mountain and be taking some more day trips rather than being you know six, seven, eight days up there.
00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:14.380
Yeah.
00:53:14.619 --> 00:53:15.260
Okay, cool.
00:53:15.340 --> 00:53:16.539
I appreciate I appreciate that.
00:53:16.780 --> 00:53:20.780
So in and let's discuss so we've talked uh a fair amount about the guides.
00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:33.820
I don't know if there's something specific or somebody specific else you want to discuss, but also you were starting to talk about, you know, the the I don't know if you call them chefs or cooks or or whatever, but the other type the other people on your team, um, I'd love to learn a little bit more about more about that.
00:53:34.140 --> 00:53:34.539
Yeah.
00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:43.180
Yes, you you you get the chefs and they tend to be again, often people that are porters, but then they've built their their cookery, cookery skills to then be able to operate and work on the mountain.
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:47.820
So we've got like one, we've got one staff member that we've been building up towards being a a head chef.
00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:51.019
So he's basically as a I think you call it a sous chef, don't you?
00:53:51.099 --> 00:53:56.380
And in but the you know, being a second-in-charge chef of supporting their the the head chef as they're climbing.
00:53:56.539 --> 00:53:58.220
So that's usually the pathway you go there.
00:53:58.300 --> 00:54:08.940
And again, if you're gonna do that job, you've got to have a real big passion in cooking and be very, very skilled at it because it's not like you've got a full kitchen set up to be cooking good food, especially because we're like, you know, yeah.
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:16.059
I keep I keep complaining because you know, as as I discussed earlier, I I do the digital nomad thing, so I'm in Airbnbs.
00:54:16.220 --> 00:54:25.820
And my like biggest complaint is these Airbnbs, they only have two pots, two pans, maybe two forks, and maybe a spoon, and I and I talk all this stuff, but you know what?
00:54:25.900 --> 00:54:32.940
I don't have to carry it in I don't have to carry any of it up uh any of it up a mountain running water to work with.
00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:35.340
So yeah, I can imagine that's that's a skill set.
00:54:35.500 --> 00:54:35.820
Yeah.
00:54:36.140 --> 00:54:37.019
Oh no, totally.
00:54:37.099 --> 00:54:44.940
So we um, you know, uh they they have a gas cylinder, which I didn't obviously basically have a cooking pan over the top of it where they can boil water or they can fry.
00:54:45.099 --> 00:54:57.099
And you know, we we we really worked on the food on the mountain because we wanted to try and make sure it was it was food that when climbers are coming out, and a lot of our climbers are from the US and from the UK, they have food that they're used to, so it's not too different for them.
00:54:57.180 --> 00:55:00.059
Again, everything's trying we're trying to build everything around them to sum it.
00:55:00.380 --> 00:55:11.340
So, like, you know, we we had a meeting a few days ago with all the chefs to this to build a bit more of a set menu for the climbs, and uh we were discussing that actually one of the big things we wanted is during that summit push.
00:55:11.500 --> 00:55:18.619
So the day before and the day of the summit push, we give them food that's like you know, they're really, really gonna want to eat and they're excited to eat.
00:55:18.700 --> 00:55:24.619
So, like chicken and chips, the teammate that they like you know, Kennedy, our head chef, he makes pizza on the mountain.
00:55:24.700 --> 00:55:27.260
He actually makes pizza with just a gadsolina, you know.
00:55:27.340 --> 00:55:29.099
So really, really impressive.
00:55:30.220 --> 00:55:32.220
Kennedy's very famous for his soups, you know.
00:55:32.619 --> 00:55:41.420
We they have soups on the mountain, which which we we implement each day for lunch and dinner, which is extra hydration, it's basically a secret way to get the more fluids on board.
00:55:41.740 --> 00:55:44.059
So the chefs are a really, really pivotal part.
00:55:44.140 --> 00:55:47.740
And if you can't get a chef right, it doesn't really help make a big difference on the climb.
00:55:47.900 --> 00:56:10.860
And then I suppose then you have the porters, and amongst the porters, there's lots of different job roles they can do, and they're usually um either previous experience in those individual roles or they offer up to do it because we offer, you know, I suppose the lowest, what we say the lowest level entry job is to be a porter where your job is to carry your gear to the camp, drop the gear, and then you can go and lay down and chill out for the rest of the day.
00:56:10.940 --> 00:56:14.619
And then on top of that, you get porters that want to do extra to earn extra money.
00:56:14.780 --> 00:56:29.420
So there's like extra jobs they can volunteer to come and do, and they're from all sorts, from basically looking after the tents to, you know, looking sorting the toilets out to building the showers and managing the showers and to literally, you know, waiting and looking after the clients when they arrive in camp.
00:56:29.579 --> 00:56:34.220
Often there'll be future aspirational guides because they want to have face-to-face time with the clients.
00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:44.220
So we've got a camp manager called Pascali, and his job is basically to make sure that no kit gets left on the mountain, no rubbish gets left on the mountain, it all gets transported off.
00:56:44.300 --> 00:56:48.940
And he's a logistical manager basically with all the porters that they get to the next camp safely.
00:56:49.099 --> 00:56:50.059
We even have a runner.
00:56:50.220 --> 00:56:55.740
So we have a runner, Jason, which is like someone that leaves 24 hours before the rest of the team leave for the next camp.
00:56:55.900 --> 00:57:01.579
And they carry lightweight, they don't carry very much, just enough for themselves to have food and dinner and everything when they get to that camp.
00:57:01.660 --> 00:57:07.900
And their job is to claim what we would call is the best area on camp at the particular campsite.
00:57:07.980 --> 00:57:17.820
And the main reason being is because we've got a footprint in terms of big tents, mess tent, toilet, showers that we have to make sure we've got a nice area that they can have all their camps set up in, it's nice and flat.
00:57:17.980 --> 00:57:21.099
So, you know, all these different jobs are kind of pre-planned in our team.
00:57:21.180 --> 00:57:26.700
I've got a whiteboard behind the screen here, and it we we plan everything out to a T of what we require from the team.
00:57:26.860 --> 00:57:30.940
So, because of all those different things we do, there's a six, we have a six to one ratio.
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:38.539
So if there's 10 people climbing, we're gonna have probably 60 to 65 staff members going up the mountain with them to get them to the top of the mountain.
00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:49.260
So, you know, yeah, that's that's that's really good because it's giving more work opportunities for the team, as well as increasing the service that people are getting when they're climbing.
00:57:49.579 --> 00:57:52.619
I have a couple logistics questions just because I'm curious.
00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:59.900
So when I hear you say we're gonna send somebody ahead of time 24 hours to basically stake out a spot so that we've got it when we get there.
00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:03.180
And then I'm imagining there's other operators kind of doing the same.
00:58:03.420 --> 00:58:05.420
Does it get confrontational?
00:58:05.820 --> 00:58:15.260
Because I imagine the scenarios where, okay, we've got our runner now going three days ahead of time, and he's gonna sit there for three days to guard a spot before we get there.
00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:18.220
And and I could see where that could just kind of get out of control.
00:58:18.300 --> 00:58:22.940
Do they have the rules and regulations that that keep you guys from fighting over that stuff?
00:58:23.260 --> 00:58:25.180
Yeah, they do every year they do reviews actually.
00:58:25.340 --> 00:58:34.220
Tanapa, um, which is like the the the organization that manages the Kilimanjara National Park, they do do meetings and they come up with different ideas to improve the services or what we do.
00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:38.059
And so there are things like that, but no, you don't tend to see any confrontations whatsoever.
00:58:38.140 --> 00:58:41.099
You know, uh, and I suppose some operators do it, you know.
00:58:41.180 --> 00:58:44.140
Um I space I'd probably say a small amount of operators do it.
00:58:44.300 --> 00:58:44.860
Most don't.
00:58:44.940 --> 00:58:50.780
They'll just rely on their the whoever's their fastest porter that day will get to camp and choose, choose where camp is that day.
00:58:50.940 --> 00:58:52.780
But you know, there is enough space on the camps.
00:58:52.860 --> 00:59:00.860
I suppose it's probably a little bit more important for us, just so just so we don't have to break the camp up in different areas of these different camps, just everyone's all together.
00:59:01.019 --> 00:59:02.700
Yeah, confrontation, very rare.
00:59:02.780 --> 00:59:05.260
You know, everyone's pretty much like one team on the mountain.
00:59:05.660 --> 00:59:11.820
We have a policy on decline that if we come across other porters that are struggling, we don't leave them, even if they're not in our not in our company.
00:59:11.980 --> 00:59:12.780
We'll we'll help them.
00:59:12.860 --> 00:59:17.579
So we'll either ship move their gear for them to help them get to that next camp, or just we'll just help them.
00:59:17.660 --> 00:59:34.619
Just because, you know, uh I think we we we started doing it because my one of my first experience climbing, I came across a lady called Mary who she was a mum, she was about fifty, I think she was early feet, never climbed the mountain before, but she'd kind of been pulled off the street for uh offering a job to Porter, and she was just like, Yeah, I'll do it because she wanted the money.
00:59:34.780 --> 00:59:38.460
And she was given a 20 kilo gas canister to climb up the mountain with.
00:59:38.700 --> 00:59:42.380
So on the first day I came across her and she was really struggling.
00:59:42.460 --> 00:59:44.460
We're only maybe 10-15 minutes into the trek.
00:59:44.539 --> 00:59:45.900
So I said, Look, I'll I'll take it.
00:59:45.980 --> 00:59:52.860
And I was she walked with me and we got chatting and told me about our family and things, and then the next day she went off ahead, she was gone already.
00:59:52.940 --> 00:59:56.059
She obviously with another company, and we we came across her again.
00:59:56.140 --> 01:00:00.940
I helped her, and then um I said to her, you know, I was with some clients that were walking quite slowly.
01:00:01.019 --> 01:00:05.340
So I said, Look, you go off back, go to camp, and then when I get to camp, you can come and grab your gear.
01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:09.500
And um, she came and grab it, and it was a running joke because she came to grab it and she says, Thank you.
01:00:09.579 --> 01:00:11.260
And saw in Swahili said, Thank you.
01:00:11.340 --> 01:00:12.220
I'll see you tomorrow.
01:00:12.460 --> 01:00:14.860
Because I think she was happy with the rides she was getting.
01:00:15.180 --> 01:00:15.740
This was great.
01:00:15.900 --> 01:00:19.340
She was getting she was getting paid, she and something else was good in the start.
01:00:19.579 --> 01:00:19.900
And she was lovely.
01:00:21.019 --> 01:00:22.700
Exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly.
01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:24.140
She and she was a lovely lady.
01:00:24.220 --> 01:00:33.579
And see, I but I remember seeing her and just thinking, literally, like my mum is the same age as her, and I couldn't imagine my mum you know on the mountain trying to drag that up there.
01:00:33.740 --> 01:00:36.539
So, just to try, I suppose, spin a bit of a positive on that.
01:00:36.780 --> 01:00:44.460
I've actually come across Mary a number of times on the mountain now, and obviously now she's a bit more experienced, and I think hopefully she's getting looked after a bit better as well.
01:00:44.619 --> 01:00:47.740
Because um, and she's now doing really well and working on the mountain.
01:00:47.820 --> 01:00:49.420
So it's a real it's a positive, you know.
01:00:49.579 --> 01:00:54.300
When we have new porters join the team, whether it be male or female, we don't give them as much weight to carry.
01:00:54.460 --> 01:00:55.900
We try and help them build up.
01:00:56.059 --> 01:01:09.820
Uh, so we give them tend to be given half the weight that everyone else has to carry, and we make sure they stay with some of our team, they're not on their own going to the mountain, uh, purely for that reason because um, you know, number one, you've got to deal the altitude for them as well, not just the clients.
01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:11.980
And uh you want to make sure they're safe as well.
01:01:12.059 --> 01:01:16.059
So yeah, the the the the team are the heartbeat, Jason, of the whole climb.
01:01:16.220 --> 01:01:17.579
I don't need to be on the mountain.
01:01:17.660 --> 01:01:23.900
Like the team, the team are so affected and so strong, you know, very inspirational, actually.
01:01:23.980 --> 01:01:28.380
I'm I'm I I feel very, very lucky to work with the team that we have uh and how good they are.
01:01:28.539 --> 01:01:34.940
We've got a team that summited this morning, actually, with with Nelson, a guy that I talked about earlier, they've just summited this morning.
01:01:35.019 --> 01:01:37.500
And then, you know, I didn't even have to worry about them.
01:01:37.579 --> 01:01:43.579
I knew they were going to be so well looked after going up onto that summit, and you know, they'll be off the mountain tomorrow morning.
01:01:43.660 --> 01:01:48.619
Um, so I'll drive over to go meet them at the gate and probably have a few kilomanjaro beers ready for them.
01:01:48.700 --> 01:01:51.340
I think there's they're very much looking forward to a few when they come off.
01:01:51.660 --> 01:01:52.940
I'm sure they I'm sure they are.
01:01:53.099 --> 01:02:00.780
Hey, what it so the person that's never been to Tanzania, maybe has never even been to Africa, they have no real idea of what the personalities are like.
01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:04.780
We talked about content, we talked about strong, we talked about entrepreneurial.
01:02:05.019 --> 01:02:18.059
But as far as if I'm a client that wants to go spend six, seven, eight, nine days with um Tanzanian guides and porters and chefs and all that stuff, I have no idea what to expect as far as personality.
01:02:18.220 --> 01:02:24.140
There's some countries in the world that people claim were very friendly, but it's hard to really connect with them.
01:02:24.300 --> 01:02:28.619
They will say our whole culture is about hospitality, yet they won't smile at you.
01:02:30.380 --> 01:02:32.539
Come on then, what countries are these Jason?
01:02:33.180 --> 01:02:36.300
Well, I'm not mentioning any names, but I've traveled around a little bit.
01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:46.300
And and then I've, you know, and then okay, well, once they invite you into your house, then yes, they'll put all kinds of food in front of you, they'll take great care of you, but they just generally don't smile very much.
01:02:46.460 --> 01:02:48.300
So I'm just using that as an example.
01:02:48.539 --> 01:02:53.980
So what sh what would you like to people to know about Tanzanians in general when it comes to that stuff?
01:02:54.140 --> 01:02:59.900
Or uh another way to put that is what what surprises people the most when they show up there and they've never been there?
01:02:59.980 --> 01:03:00.780
About that.
01:03:01.900 --> 01:03:08.460
Yeah, I think um you know when you think of Africa, for a lot of people that have never been out before, they've got that stereotypical view of what it's like.
01:03:08.619 --> 01:03:15.660
Um when they when people first come out, they're often very nervous about integrating with with local cultures and sit meeting people.
01:03:16.380 --> 01:03:32.860
And uh I think because of that, it's created this thing where Tanzanians are quite shy when they first meet people, but very quickly, probably less than 24 hours later, they're your best friend, and they're literally, you know, they're the kindest people in the world.
01:03:33.019 --> 01:03:35.180
So um, so I'd probably describe it like that.
01:03:35.260 --> 01:03:41.180
And you see this journey through the mounting, actually, when people first meet the guides and the team, they get on the bus to head over to the mountain.
01:03:41.260 --> 01:03:47.900
You know, to be fair, you know, our team are pretty outgoing now, they're a lot more confident, but they'll be quite quiet and they'll say a few words and chat.
01:03:47.980 --> 01:04:04.460
Obviously, you've got to remember English is in their first language, but then the following morning after they've climbed for the first day, they know their names, they're like, hey, you know, you you you you know, they'll be saying jumbo and shouting at people and saying a shouting a kuna matata, giving people high fives, and all of a sudden it you kind of evolved into this whole thing.
01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:08.300
And we see at the end of the mountain that people are really emotional saying goodbye to the team.
01:04:08.940 --> 01:04:16.300
Yeah, I I'm you know, we we we book a restaurant at the end of the climb for the all the team to have lunch with with the with the clients.
01:04:16.460 --> 01:04:27.579
So often you've got like 70 people all having lunch together, and the reason is we do a quick team picture, but it's a chance for them to say goodbye to everybody, and it's usually pretty emotional for a lot of people because you build these bonds on the mountain.
01:04:27.740 --> 01:04:34.380
Um, but Tanzanians are uh super friendly, you know, very chilled out people, but really, really kind hearts.
01:04:34.539 --> 01:04:37.420
I'd probably say that's the the the best way of describing them.
01:04:37.740 --> 01:04:42.380
Yeah, I don't, as I probably mentioned earlier, I don't know Tanzania yet.
01:04:42.539 --> 01:04:46.380
I've been to what Zambia, South Africa, Namibia.
01:04:46.539 --> 01:04:49.980
And every time people ask me, well, what was your favorite part of Africa?
01:04:50.140 --> 01:04:51.180
It's always the people.
01:04:51.340 --> 01:04:53.019
I saw some amazing animals.
01:04:53.180 --> 01:04:58.619
I mean, the the the wildlife, the nature is incredible, but it's immediately it's the people.
01:04:58.780 --> 01:05:04.220
And I know Africa is a big continent, so I'm not saying that people in Namibia must be exactly like people in Tanzania.
01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:12.059
I'm not saying that, but in my experience, the the few places I've been in Africa is just they were so warm and gracious and just fun.
01:05:12.220 --> 01:05:20.940
They were just like, I don't want to say funny because I don't want in in any diminutive way, but they've got kind of a funny sense of humor that sometimes comes out when you least expect it.
01:05:21.019 --> 01:05:22.300
And I just I don't know.
01:05:22.380 --> 01:05:24.860
I just I've I've so I can imagine that.
01:05:24.940 --> 01:05:26.140
And that's why I wanted to mention that.
01:05:26.220 --> 01:05:30.220
So anybody that hasn't been to Tanzania, I suspected you were gonna say something like that.
01:05:30.300 --> 01:05:37.180
So all right, that's yeah, it's nice that you've experienced that because um I'd probably say Zambian culture is very similar to Tanzanian.
01:05:37.500 --> 01:05:39.579
Very like individual tribes, you know.
01:05:39.660 --> 01:05:42.700
In Zambia, I think it's 74 different languages are spoken.
01:05:42.860 --> 01:05:48.940
So it's very English is the is the now the main language in Zambia, but it's very similar to Tanzania.
01:05:49.180 --> 01:05:57.420
I suppose ta Tanzania culturally has gone a little bit more Arabic because a small Arabic mix because on that coastal plain there, but it's very, very similar.
01:05:57.500 --> 01:06:03.740
So what you probably experience there in Zimbabwe is is not far off what Tanzania is as well, in terms of the people.
01:06:03.820 --> 01:06:07.099
And I've I've traveled through all those countries, and I think I'd probably say it's very, very simple.
01:06:07.340 --> 01:06:14.300
Let's discuss if you're ready to we've been going on and on and on about a lot of really, really cool stuff, and we haven't even touched on it how the heck you got there.
01:06:14.539 --> 01:06:16.300
So let's go look at childhood traumas.
01:06:16.539 --> 01:06:25.340
We don't and I say that j kind of jokingly, but at the same time, I know enough of your history to think, wow, there's some reason that caused you to go do all this interesting stuff.
01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:29.579
But let's go back to let's let's go back to when you were 10 or 12 or so.
01:06:29.740 --> 01:06:31.420
What was going on in your life?
01:06:31.579 --> 01:06:33.180
Where did you grow up and what was that like?
01:06:33.420 --> 01:06:36.460
Yeah, I I grew up, I had a really good um upbringing actually.
01:06:36.539 --> 01:06:40.539
So I I grew up in a place called Northamptonshire, which is in the very middle of England.
01:06:40.619 --> 01:06:45.340
So it's um probably it's very far away from any hills or mountains and also from the seaside.
01:06:45.500 --> 01:06:53.740
So um it's very is you know, it's probably say well known for farming and very used to be very, very famous for shoemaking until it obviously all got exported out to to China.
01:06:53.900 --> 01:06:56.059
So that was what Northamptonshire was famous for.
01:06:56.140 --> 01:06:59.980
I I grew up with both my parents until I was about, I think, about seven years old.
01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:01.660
And my mum and dad split up.
01:07:01.740 --> 01:07:04.140
Um, and then I grew up with my mum and my stepdad moved into.
01:07:04.539 --> 01:07:07.500
the family and introduced me to a sport called rugby.
01:07:08.059 --> 01:07:10.619
I kind of I suppose I did I quickly fall in love with it.
01:07:10.700 --> 01:07:19.500
I suppose I just enjoyed until I enjoyed and just enjoyed it to begin with and then kind of built these goals and aspirations to try and become a professional professional rugby player.
01:07:19.820 --> 01:07:23.099
And yeah then kind of dedicated a lot of my childhood to that.
01:07:23.740 --> 01:07:30.780
Let me ask you this because a lot of people that grow like maybe the area of the United States that would be similar would be kind of the Midwest.
01:07:30.940 --> 01:07:32.460
I don't know something like that.
01:07:32.619 --> 01:07:36.619
And those places in the US are pretty good at producing football players.
01:07:36.780 --> 01:07:39.660
And a lot of it has to do with I want to get the F out of here.
01:07:39.820 --> 01:07:47.740
I want to be a professional athlete, a singer, a something so I can move on to get closer to mountains or or the ocean or something like that.
01:07:47.900 --> 01:07:51.260
Do you think that had anything to do with your desire to be a professional rugby player?
01:07:51.420 --> 01:07:55.099
Well actually where I'm from is probably m quite well known for rugby.
01:07:55.180 --> 01:08:13.420
So um so I think I think yeah yeah so I think in the UK and England specifically football is the most popular sport or what would we you know you'd say soccer in the US so because of that where I live um football wasn't the dominating sport probably rugby was because a local team Northampton Saints is a very good team.
01:08:13.579 --> 01:08:17.260
They in fact they won the won the top league the premiership they won this year.
01:08:17.340 --> 01:08:22.220
So kind of you know that that was definitely more rugby team opportunities for me to go and play and join.
01:08:22.380 --> 01:08:26.380
I think a lot of it for me was complete luck as well just because my stepdad was into rugby.
01:08:26.460 --> 01:08:30.059
I never heard of it and he took me up to the local rugby club and started playing it.
01:08:30.619 --> 01:08:37.579
It's probably the first thing that I was actually any good at so I think that's probably why I was suddenly like right I'm going to try and become a fashion rugby player and start doing that.
01:08:37.899 --> 01:09:14.140
And yeah I I I actually really enjoyed it and I did have the opportunity to play at a high level I did go and play um for a for a team called London Wasps moved down to London and played there on a contract for two years and they're in the premiership as well but I was in there like youth setup I was still I think I was 15 and tiny I remember I joined and they were they they they were like right you've got to put on 20 kilos over the next two years if you even want to think about uh moving up into the first team so I was drinking protein powders like literally three or four times a day and uh and then was this a was this a scenario was this a scenario you where you went and lived in London while you were part of this program?
01:09:14.779 --> 01:10:03.819
Yeah it was yeah so I um got given a trial to go down there to to you know to I think I think I'd written a letter I think so I I'd gone and done what we call representational rugby so for different levels and was doing relatively well but I hadn't broken into doing the highest level which is like the England age groups and I was kind of slightly in there with Northampton Saints the team local to me but not quite and um I suppose you know for a number of reasons I think probably number one not being good enough sometimes with rugby in the in the in England a lot of it's built around the private school system which is paid for schooling uh and I didn't go to a paid for school so you wouldn't get as many eyes on you and obviously I didn't play rugby out of school I only played for my local club and then um and then I saw this opportunity at WASP they were trying to look basically recruit players into their team from all around the world.
01:10:04.140 --> 01:10:28.380
So I wrote a letter in and I got invited in down to the trial and I got I remember going down to the trial and there was you know I was fifth I think I was 15 and I walked into a room all these other well I'd say kids but some of them had beards and facial hair and I couldn't grow a thing on my face and I hadn't even hit puberty yet and uh and there was like there was like guys from New Zealand that had tattoos and like you know down their arms and I was looking around thinking gee and I didn't have a muscle on me.
01:10:28.619 --> 01:10:44.220
And and I yeah over that and there was 60 of us I remember we sat in a room and they went right we're looking to select three and I was like well that's my chance is gone then I've got no chance and then I and then somehow they you know I did I was one of the lucky few that got picked and I and then I went and then yeah that it did me moving down to London.
01:10:44.300 --> 01:11:11.900
So my parents obviously financially propped that whole situation up and what I did was I I live I had a room with a family so a family basically rented out their room and I lived in the room there and the family would cook dinner and I would have their dinners and things with them and and then I would obviously spend most of my day at the club or at school I'd be switching between school and club throughout the day um training and and trying to do some education which didn't go that well and then I was going to ask about that.
01:11:12.140 --> 01:11:28.940
Was there were you doing school because you because that's kind of you kind of have to at a certain age or was there anything in school that you're interested in or another way of saying that is what was your plan B if if rugby didn't work out where were you going to go before I didn't I didn't I I didn't have a plan there was no plan B.
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:51.260
I was uh yeah yeah what did you say young Delmond yeah I was like yeah so I was just like yeah I'm just gonna become a rugby player so you know I um yeah my chat literally just I was very I'm I'm pretty gung ho still now I'm very much like tunnel vision right we're going for something to go and do it so I was like with rugby it wasn't until towards the end when I kind of you knew I got towards the end of my contract and I knew I was just like I'm not I'm not just quite good enough here.
01:11:51.420 --> 01:11:55.180
So you know so I kind of had to make a decision of what I was going to do.
01:11:55.420 --> 01:12:09.900
I've got my A levels and so the next step was either to go to university but as you said there like I had no idea what I wanted to do and I didn't really know what I wanted to study if I was going to go off to university and also probably the educational system probably wasn't quite right for me.
01:12:09.980 --> 01:12:19.420
I didn't I always found school hard and difficult even no matter how hard I tried so then I'd been reading some Andy McNabb Andy McNabb books have you heard of Andy McNabb?
01:12:19.819 --> 01:13:09.260
He's like ex-Soldier he was quite famous back in the day and he'd written a load of like books about his stories he'd done I've been reading a lot of those books um and I was really interested my stepfather was also ex-military was in the Navy so it's kind of small linked there as well and uh yeah I was a bit like well you know what maybe I can join the military so I had my final meeting with the with the rugby team where they were just like look you know we're not quite good enough to to continue on we're not going to give you another contract and I remember that afternoon I went straight into uh to the careers office and I was I was actually looking at joining the paratroopers so probably a very similar job role to what you did as you said at the start uh got the paperwork but then I and then I went to I walked past the Navy careers office and I saw this big poster and it was a Royal Marines commando poster and the poster literally said 99.9% need not apply.
01:13:09.579 --> 01:13:38.060
Need yeah yeah yeah it was a it apparently uh apparently it was a terrible uh a terrible advertising campaign for them because their the recruitment dropped but for me it was uh that sounds pretty cool I remember got the paperwork and you know didn't really know too much about it but signed up and you know said I'll go through selection and you go through like a you know go through select to go and join do you remember the first conversation you had with your mom after you signed after you did you well let me back up.
01:13:38.220 --> 01:13:44.940
Did you make a commitment did you sign something that was kind of got the ball rolling before you discussed this with your mom?
01:13:45.900 --> 01:13:51.659
Well I think I had to get them involved because I was under 18 when I was going through that process I think I was 17.
01:13:51.819 --> 01:14:25.739
So I think that they had to be involved with it I think so yeah I my memory's not too good and I often say that's because I got knocked out too many times playing rugby but um yeah I I think no to be fair I involved them and I think um they were they were they they were fully supportive of of doing it I suppose probably my when I started to deploy away that got a little bit more difficult because it was obviously horrible for my mother to have to you know worry about me when I'm away so yes and uh and then yeah I I signed all the paperwork and then and then started started selection which was nine months long to to try and become a commando.
01:14:26.140 --> 01:14:33.180
So you I I think there could be a whole episode about you know the the selection and the training of being a a commando.
01:14:33.340 --> 01:15:06.859
So it's Royal Marine Commando is that the official title yeah Royal Marines Commando yeah so um so yes yeah as an organization that was was you know nowadays is designed for probably more modern combat in terms of raids um you know you basically do work in smaller teams and do things very fast so you're part of the um rapid reaction force in the UK so if we we were basically on cool so if anything happened around the world we had to be there in under 24 hours so so that was kind of our main job role but if we are an offshoot of the navy so there is still a nautical element to what we did.
01:15:07.020 --> 01:15:35.100
So there'd be boats you know we would do elements all sorts of elements where it'd be parachuting in boats you know the one of the sayings the Latin saying it was by by air I think it was by land, sea and air I might have got that the wrong way around but um that was the the job role so a very very broad job role but very very interesting as well like you know I was very lucky to go and go and do lots when I was in and and experience that and it was fantastic for me because how old were you Jason when you when you joined the military?
01:15:35.340 --> 01:15:36.779
Jeez 19?
01:15:37.100 --> 01:15:41.980
Yeah I think I went in probably about 19 did about five or six years myself.
01:15:42.220 --> 01:16:01.100
So a Royal Marines commando with that for it's basically the equivalent it sounds like the equivalent of the Navy SEALs is that and I don't want to put labels I don't want to start a debate about anything about who's I think it's yeah it's difficult to do that because um because you you'll get no matter what you'll say you'll get someone say it wrong.
01:16:01.260 --> 01:16:06.300
I'll probably say similar to a um the Marine Corps appear Navy SEALs.
01:16:07.100 --> 01:16:48.300
But you're yeah you're part of the Navy um specialized rapid reactionary type of stuff selection process yeah I mean it kind of sounds similarities as far as yeah yeah yeah we didn't we didn't have a have to hold boats over our head doing that what was it called it was it was a hell week you have to do in the seals I've watched the videos of it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah proper I I had a I had a buddy when I was I was in the 101st Pathfinder company uh so we did just Pathfinder stuff that that's irrelevant but I had a friend who had left the Royal Marines at some point I think Royal Marines Commander I don't know exactly I don't want but he had come over and joined the no he met his wife and Diego Garcia and she was in the U.S.
01:16:48.300 --> 01:17:15.739
Air Force yeah okay so they they got married he became a US citizen and then went joined the army and was in my unit and so he used to share some stories about his time in the the Royal Marines and yeah so anyway yeah he well he would have done exactly the same as me then and he and he if he was in Diego Garcia and then one because that was a base the Marines used to go to and that that deployment if you got give if you got sent to Diego Garcia was a very cushy role because you got to be on the beach and in the sunshine you know all day long.
01:17:15.819 --> 01:17:25.980
So it's very if we used to be very jealous of everyone you know they'd be like right Tony you're going Diego Garcia David you're going Scotland and it's like oh for God's sake.
01:17:26.940 --> 01:17:45.340
Well that's funny because I remember many most of our training was in Kentucky and Tennessee and the summer was hot and muggy and the winter is just cold and miserable and I remember so many missions training missions we'd go out we'd be out for two or three days just the two of us because that's kind of the way we operated and it'd be he and I cuddled up in a poncha liner together.
01:17:45.500 --> 01:17:51.739
So now that you just now that you just described what Diego Garcia was like I'm sure he was second guessing some of his life choices.
01:17:51.980 --> 01:18:02.300
Yeah he said what have I done anyway so after after the train how long did you stay day active duty and then kind of walk us forward to help us understand?
01:18:02.380 --> 01:18:02.699
What's that?
01:18:02.859 --> 01:18:04.699
Yeah I did five I did I did about five years.
01:18:04.779 --> 01:18:05.980
So I did very similar to yourself.
01:18:06.060 --> 01:18:07.420
So I did about a five year stint.
01:18:07.739 --> 01:18:24.460
I did two deployments so I deployed deployed out to what my first seven deployment was very early on when I joined and it was when the whole civil war was happening in Libya and we got deployed out in the med on like a on our what you call an RAF RFA ship ready to basically go in and get nationals out if it really got worse.
01:18:24.619 --> 01:18:34.060
That kind of calmed down and then we went through the Suez Canal and did some anti-piracy work and some training elements with different forces the Saudi special forces and Omani forces up in the hills there.
01:18:34.140 --> 01:18:41.020
So we that was my first deployment and then I did an Afghanistan deployment which was later on during what you call Operation Herrick.
01:18:41.100 --> 01:18:51.180
And you know I suppose our role there was really kind of kind of command control of the area but also hand it back to the Afghan army and Afghan police to try and like take over the area themselves.
01:18:51.420 --> 01:19:04.859
So you know I did those two deployments and actually came back from the Afghan deployment I was still playing sport in the military so I was playing the what you call the army navy rugby matches and some other other representational sports.
01:19:05.100 --> 01:19:16.940
And then I um yeah I came back and I think I was I I'd kind of done what I wanted to do to be honest I'm not sure what it was like for you Jason when you decided to leave but I'd done what I wanted to do and was like I'm looking for something a little bit different now.
01:19:17.260 --> 01:19:26.699
Yeah and you know I you know but I'll tell you what though Jack your your five your five years was probably a little bit more intense than my five years.
01:19:27.020 --> 01:19:27.420
Really?
01:19:27.500 --> 01:19:41.260
Because you know I was always so shocked Jason with the with the US military of how long you'd be deployed away from home even if you were in the US how far I could not believe it I'd meet people in the in and it'd be like I haven't been home for nine months and I'd be like so different from being in the UK military.
01:19:41.819 --> 01:19:43.420
But I think it was just the timing.
01:19:43.579 --> 01:20:03.100
I went in right after desert storm the first desert storm okay be you know because I watched all that and I was like okay fine I'm gonna go do my thing and and then there was a slowdown not really too much happened I so and then by the time I was out it was before the you know before Afghanistan and all that stuff.
01:20:03.180 --> 01:20:08.380
So but it so anyway I understand you got to the point where you're like okay what did what did you think you wanted to go do?
01:20:08.539 --> 01:20:10.060
Did you have a plan at this point?
01:20:10.220 --> 01:20:12.539
Or just I just didn't want to do this anymore.
01:20:13.260 --> 01:20:14.539
Yeah I had a small plan.
01:20:16.140 --> 01:20:21.500
I I got I got really into competing at CrossFit whilst I was in the military because in the military it was quite prolific.
01:20:21.579 --> 01:20:24.859
It was growing quite quickly so it spread from the US military.
01:20:25.020 --> 01:20:27.900
I was actually working with some Navy SEALs who introduced it to me.
01:20:27.980 --> 01:20:34.060
I was in Afghanistan working with them and um they that you know they introduced me to CrossFit.
01:20:34.140 --> 01:20:37.819
I tried it and was like Jesus it's very difficult and I just got a bit of a bug for it.
01:20:38.060 --> 01:20:45.500
Started to compete and got quite good at it I suppose I was probably maybe top 10 in the UK and maybe top 40 in in Europe.
01:20:45.739 --> 01:21:02.619
So and I just really loved it and then I started to I started really getting into it and was like well maybe I can leave and set a gym up and then I handed my notice in and then you know I had to work a year's notice and during that year I spent a lot of my time most of the time trying to think what I was going to call the gym and then I realized I haven't actually done any of the business planning.
01:21:02.779 --> 01:21:19.020
And but if we fast forward through that I did I ended up leaving and set set a gym up through a number of different hardships but set a set a gym up and then just slowly grew that you know I I set it up because I was really into training myself and then really kind of saw this whole thing of we can make a big difference in people's lives here.
01:21:19.180 --> 01:21:24.220
So I decided to kind of take a back step back from my training and really concentrate on building the business.
01:21:24.380 --> 01:21:43.579
And then we built up to having I think we have five sites um five different sites dotted around England um before I suppose I think the biggest learning I took away from that business was I probably grew the business to a I put myself into a role as a business grew into it into something I wasn't very passionate about in terms of running that business.
01:21:43.819 --> 01:21:48.699
My passion was in training and it wasn't and in coaching it wasn't in building a gym business.
01:21:48.859 --> 01:21:52.220
So I got to the end of it and I was a bit like I'm actually a bit bored doing this.
01:21:52.300 --> 01:21:54.220
I don't wake up and feel the buzz anymore.
01:21:54.460 --> 01:21:58.699
I decided to sell the business and then was like right what the hell am I going to do now?
01:21:58.779 --> 01:22:02.699
So that's that's a very quick fast forward through those four years doing the business.
01:22:03.020 --> 01:22:16.140
But you you did you've done some I don't know if you call them athletic endeavors I don't know but I know you did a few things that I think our listeners I know our listeners would be interested in knowing about but I don't I don't want to say the wrong thing or plant the wrong seat.
01:22:16.220 --> 01:22:21.420
But I'm curious where those fit in something about the Atlantic Ocean something about North Africa.
01:22:21.579 --> 01:22:25.900
Is that stuff that you were doing while you were running the gym or did that come after the gym?
01:22:26.220 --> 01:22:28.940
It was uh a few of them were before whilst I was running the gym.
01:22:29.020 --> 01:22:47.500
So the first one was it started off by just doing some stupid challenges just because I wanted you know you you notice like Jason when you're in the military you get pushed all the time and like physically mentally and you know you and you end up like wanting that adrenaline that adrenaline of that push and and I was looking for that and I couldn't get it from just running the business.
01:22:47.659 --> 01:22:49.739
So I started to do some charity challenges.
01:22:49.819 --> 01:23:04.300
So it started off I did I did like 24 hours on uh what we call an assault bike which is where you cycle and the arms go at the same time and then um and then I did like I don't know did like 2,000 burpees for charity and just as quick as possible and did a load of different things.
01:23:04.699 --> 01:23:26.699
But then I suppose the one that got recognition was a 24 hours on a ski erg where you know I actually properly went for it and tried to get the world record which I did get the world record I did um I did like 283 kilometers or thousand metres in the 24 hours and uh and that was the one that really kind of like made you know that got a bit more recognition on social media and on news and stuff.
01:23:27.020 --> 01:23:45.420
That hack is a it's called a ski erg is that right yes a ski erg so you know like the con well you know the concept two the best way to describe it the concept two rowers you know like everyone I think most people know what those rowers are the rowing machines it's like one of them but it stood up against the wall and you and you've got the two handles and you basically are simulating cross country skiing.
01:23:47.260 --> 01:23:58.699
It was during lockdown during COVID so we'd given all the equipment out I was actually supposed to sell the gym and COVID hit and then there was a big delay to me selling the business and I had to run it through COVID before I could pass it over.
01:23:59.020 --> 01:24:07.180
So um you know I was running it would rent it out every single yeah so I'd I had time in my hands because we could actually run a gym so it was like empty.
01:24:07.260 --> 01:24:34.699
So I'd rented all the equipment out to every all the members they would obviously keep paying their membership and keep the doors running all the not doors open but the business running with staff but the only piece of kit we had left was a skier because it was bolted down into the wall and the floor so um so that's why we only had it and then at the time I was supporting some different charity things and that we were doing in in um in and around the local area and that's where the idea came from I thought you know if you want to get donations someone knows 24 hours is pretty tough if you're gonna be doing that for that duration.
01:24:35.260 --> 01:24:39.180
Yes did that um and that was really cool and like I I enjoyed doing that.
01:24:39.260 --> 01:24:48.779
I actually really enjoyed the training for them because you kind of start off knowing not knowing how you're gonna evolve to get to the point of doing 24 hours but then over months you kind of you suddenly see it.
01:24:48.859 --> 01:24:53.180
And um yeah so I did I've done a few others I did like 24 hours of pull ups or chin-ups.
01:24:53.579 --> 01:25:32.460
That was horrendous that was actually a lot harder than I thought it was going to be and then I I at the same time whilst I was selling that business I I'd already stepped back from it I started to do things that I wanted to do which was going back to what I did in the military the expeditions so that was you know like you said there I did um I did a race across the Sahara which is like 270 kilometers across the Sahara like self-sufficient just carrying all your gear to survive and then did my own trip pretty much following what you where you've been so I went through uh crossed through um Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana but doing like some particular different challenges in each country raising money for some different causes there.
01:25:32.539 --> 01:26:18.539
So I suppose the most recognizable one was the Yokavango Delta um quite the length of the Okavango Delta um from from top to bottom which was uh I can tell you now was the closest I've been to dying way clo way closer than being out in Afghanistan I can tell you that mainly because I was chasing yeah I was gonna ask is that because of wildlife weather when you tell us more about that yeah so yeah so wildlife I was I was very naive getting into it and it was the end of this big project where I've been away for like three months on an expedition I think it was three months maybe two months on expedition uh yeah the I I'd had a friend of mine called Mark who lives in Maund which is in the south is is the main town next to the Delta so anyone that goes in safari in the Delta lands in Maund and goes off.
01:26:18.859 --> 01:26:51.659
He'd always said to me about wanting to do it so uh so I said well look I can meet you on the way three or six and we'll go and do it and I was so naive I hadn't really done much kayaking so you know and what I had done was very leisurely down some rivers back at home so I uh I got there and we we drove up this like 10 hour drive up off road to get to the start point and it was just getting to the evening and we said and and Mark you know he's actually an experienced kayaker he was like let's jump in the kayak and just practice together to get our timing right and we got on the kayak and started to get the time right and it was one of those thin kayaks that very easily tips over.
01:26:51.900 --> 01:27:01.100
And I'm not joking we literally got like 30 seconds in his kayak and this croc comes out of the reeds and starts chasing after us and we had to like sprint to get away from it.
01:27:01.659 --> 01:27:25.340
And then yeah but it we it was the hippos it was the hippos I've got some footage uh somewhere of these hippos chasing us and it was like it was crazy to the point we had to like ditch the kayak at one point and get away run away from them we had a we had a boat that was following us that had an American journalist on the videographer on there as well that was capturing some of the things and their boat got attacked by hipposite properly.
01:27:25.980 --> 01:27:36.699
So they'd have good video for TikTok of the yeah yeah for TikTok and all sorts of Royal Marine Commando getting eat by the hippo yeah they can live stream it and yeah get some views.
01:27:36.779 --> 01:28:09.500
Yeah no um yeah you know uh and I remember the first experience we turned this corner quite early on and it took it it took five days to get but to cover the distance it's about 400 kilometers and we turned this first corner and we saw these hippos and you you just thought this adrenaline going all of a sudden because the river's not that wide and there's loads of hippos and you basically had to try it's like game of Mario Kart you basically had to like try and dodge around them and get through and they will go for you and if you know the river the river is their home so they will they will they're very territorial so be it they'll try to attack you.
01:28:10.140 --> 01:28:20.300
Do they yeah the only tactic sorry do the I was going to ask is yeah is the tactic there to move really slow or is it get there through there as quickly?
01:28:20.380 --> 01:28:27.739
I mean are they attracted by the motion like I what do you do when you're when you've got 14 hippos and you've got to weave your way through them.
01:28:28.220 --> 01:28:31.980
Yeah no so you you you've got to try and keep distance from into the main thing.
01:28:32.460 --> 01:28:42.539
Speed doesn't make too much difference um especially if you're keeping away from them um you know because they because they're territorial that if you're going into their area and their space they're gonna go for you.
01:28:42.699 --> 01:28:55.020
So what would happen is you would sit either see them on the land in front a few hundred meters in front of you and then they would see you and they would then go running into the river and just disappear because they can stay underwater about five minutes.
01:28:55.180 --> 01:29:09.260
So they would just disappear and then your game was well we need to get away they would go to the deeper part of the river so we would have to try and get away from that deep part and try and find out where it But we but we had a few scenarios where because they would just dip into the water to get away from you.
01:29:09.340 --> 01:29:24.060
But we had a few scenarios where, like, you know, one of them was we were trying to get around this pod, didn't realise there was actually a hippo right underneath us, and I was hiking and and I and I went and hit the water and it was solid, and I thought I'd hit a rock and turn around and we'd hit a hippo.
01:29:24.380 --> 01:29:25.659
And it was coming up for us.
01:29:25.819 --> 01:29:31.340
So yeah, we used to joke, we were joking during it because we'd have to find some dry land to camp each night and set a fire up.
01:29:31.420 --> 01:29:39.579
And we were joking saying, Well, the worst thing about being attacked by a hippo is they won't even eat you, they won't even use you for energy, they'll just they'll just kill you and because they eat grass grazers.
01:29:40.140 --> 01:29:44.779
So so so yes, uh that was it was a really incredible, incredible journey.
01:29:44.940 --> 01:29:52.539
There, as I said earlier, sorry, the the support boat, the river is a is a swamp, so it's not very it's not very deep, some sections of it.
01:29:52.699 --> 01:30:07.340
So sections when the support boat was bottoming out, so I would actually have to get out of the kayak and go up to them and try and push the boat through the river or swim up to them and push the boat through, which um which is obviously you look back now and think was pretty stupid, but we had to get them out of that situation.
01:30:07.659 --> 01:30:20.619
The you said about what scares the hippos, all the noise wasn't very good from the engine of the boat, so in the end, we had to tell them to go ahead of us because then we went for an area which the locals called Hippo Alley, you know, a direct translation, hippo alley.
01:30:20.779 --> 01:30:25.900
And it was just I can't tell you how dense it was with hippos, they were just everywhere, like pods of hippos everywhere.
01:30:26.060 --> 01:30:33.980
And um, we told the boat, go ahead of us, go through, get ahead of us, away from us, because we need to be able to go through here quietly and without scaring them.
01:30:34.140 --> 01:30:42.859
And uh they went off ahead and actually, you know, when when they were, they were, they were got off a few kilometres ahead of us, stopped, and then they thought they were completely away from the hippos, which they weren't.
01:30:42.940 --> 01:30:50.300
And one of the hippos came underneath their boat and headbutted the bottom of the boat and uh and then nearly flipped the boat open over.
01:30:50.539 --> 01:30:55.260
And the guy was actually videoing at the times as a shot of the boat being thrown and him dropping the camera.
01:30:55.340 --> 01:31:00.619
Um, and then we came up to them and they were just they were just completely lost their head, they were literally screaming for help.
01:31:00.779 --> 01:31:16.940
Um, so we got them out of the situation and then ended up calling a helicopter in for them to go back, and then we finished off the journey on our own, which was a lot easier because you haven't got, you know, when you do those kind of things, it's really difficult when you're worrying about other people because you need to really concentrate on what you're doing.
01:31:17.340 --> 01:31:28.779
Well, that's that was actually the question that was occurring to me was the support boat really doing you any favors other than just having somebody there to cat to catch footage of you guys getting eaten by a croc or a hippo?
01:31:29.020 --> 01:31:30.539
I mean Yeah, no, no, no, not at all.
01:31:30.619 --> 01:31:37.579
No, it was um you know the journalists, the journalist was writing stories for a number of different pieces out in Africa and wanted to come and join to capture this.
01:31:37.739 --> 01:31:41.420
Um, you know, the Doctor Bangladesh Delta's stunning is super diverse.
01:31:41.659 --> 01:31:43.579
I think they regretted the decision afterwards.
01:31:43.739 --> 01:31:45.020
I don't know, maybe they might look down.
01:31:45.180 --> 01:31:46.699
I'm sure they look bad now and think it's pretty cool.
01:31:46.779 --> 01:31:48.300
There's a lady called Summer Rylander.
01:31:48.859 --> 01:31:54.619
And uh yeah, so you know, uh once they got the helicopter out, they were alright and you know, fine.
01:31:54.779 --> 01:31:57.260
But um it was pretty crazy, pretty crazy.
01:31:57.739 --> 01:32:04.220
It sounds like what you were saying, it sounds like you didn't quite know what you were getting yourself into, and really out very much.
01:32:04.460 --> 01:32:05.739
I think is what I heard you say.
01:32:05.900 --> 01:32:14.060
Your buddy, did he was was did he more I don't know what to say comfortable, but like did he have a better idea what to expect than you did?
01:32:16.140 --> 01:32:16.539
Yeah, okay.
01:32:16.619 --> 01:32:17.100
And yeah, yeah.
01:32:17.180 --> 01:32:20.779
Yeah, yeah, he he was from the area, so he he kind of knew the wild life already.
01:32:20.859 --> 01:32:21.980
He knew kind of what to expect.
01:32:22.060 --> 01:32:24.460
I think he'd attempted it before but didn't finish it.
01:32:24.699 --> 01:32:27.020
So, you know, but but he didn't but he didn't tell me that.
01:32:27.100 --> 01:32:28.859
He generally didn't tell me until afterwards.
01:32:28.940 --> 01:32:35.819
And and actually I want to know what I want to know what I want to know what happened to the other person that attempted it with him the first time.
01:32:35.900 --> 01:32:35.980
Yeah.
01:32:36.140 --> 01:32:39.260
Because you notice that person did not come back and do it with him again.
01:32:39.579 --> 01:32:40.300
Yeah, that's true.
01:32:40.380 --> 01:32:41.340
Yeah, that's that's very true.
01:32:41.500 --> 01:32:47.340
Actually, I didn't I didn't I don't this is why I need you with me to start you know asking these questions the next time I say yes to something.
01:32:47.500 --> 01:32:47.659
Yeah.
01:32:48.140 --> 01:32:50.779
I'm pretty good, I'm pretty good at the what if type thing.
01:32:51.260 --> 01:32:51.659
What if?
01:32:51.739 --> 01:32:52.940
Have you thought about this?
01:32:53.340 --> 01:32:54.779
And then I still do it anyway.
01:32:55.020 --> 01:32:56.220
I but yeah, yeah.
01:32:56.539 --> 01:32:56.859
Yeah, right.
01:32:57.100 --> 01:32:57.340
Exactly.
01:32:57.980 --> 01:32:59.579
That sounded like a big adventure.
01:33:00.140 --> 01:33:01.020
Yeah, yeah, it was.
01:33:03.659 --> 01:33:07.340
But it doesn't sound like something you'd be super excited to go do again, or would you?
01:33:07.819 --> 01:33:11.100
I thought I would do now, although I've got a little boy now that's six months old.
01:33:11.180 --> 01:33:11.980
Yeah, and my decisions are.
01:33:19.260 --> 01:33:19.420
All right.
01:33:19.659 --> 01:33:19.739
Yeah.
01:33:19.980 --> 01:33:23.739
I think uh I definitely Oh sorry, sorry to jump in there.
01:33:23.980 --> 01:33:36.699
There was a bit of a lag then, but I I, you know, definitely seen a mindset shift in the way I look at things now because I often have a craving to go and do more expeditions or more things, but ever since we've had Leo, you do change your mind a little bit.
01:33:36.779 --> 01:33:41.659
I'm a bit like, you know, actually quite happy to be at home and not doing those things so much now.
01:33:42.300 --> 01:33:48.619
You know, it's it's interesting that you brought that up because we talked a little bit about getting to that point where it's time to leave the military.
01:33:48.779 --> 01:33:52.140
I actually remember the day when I when it clicked for me.
01:33:52.220 --> 01:33:58.699
I was stationed in Alaska, and my thing was on the weekends, I was, or pretty much any time I could, I was going fishing.
01:33:58.779 --> 01:34:09.340
And I had a young daughter that was probably six months old or so at the six months to a year old, and I was out fishing, and I saw a guy that looked like a version of me 20 years older.
01:34:10.300 --> 01:34:14.859
And he was fishing, but he was in a wheelchair, so he's very limited as to where he could fish.
01:34:15.020 --> 01:34:19.420
He was in a wheelchair, and his young daughter, which's probably seven or eight, was there with him.
01:34:19.579 --> 01:34:23.819
And I it just kind of clicked this whole jumping out of airplanes type of thing.
01:34:23.980 --> 01:34:32.779
Like I wanted to have that opportunity to fish with my daughter and not be limited to the place that I can, you know, get my wheelchair up to.
01:34:32.940 --> 01:34:36.380
And I remember thinking maybe I should quit jumping out of airplanes.
01:34:36.940 --> 01:34:37.260
Yeah.
01:34:37.420 --> 01:34:39.819
Yeah, because historically it didn't end very well, does it?
01:34:39.900 --> 01:34:40.619
Yeah, that's very true.
01:34:40.940 --> 01:34:43.579
Things things change when you when you when you have a kid.
01:34:43.819 --> 01:34:49.900
So what else did you do bet between that Okvango trip and and getting to to kind of where you're at now?
01:34:49.980 --> 01:34:56.460
Because I I want to touch on, you know, how you met your wife, how that went, and I understand she's now living there with you in Tanzania.
01:34:56.539 --> 01:34:58.220
We discussed that a little bit before I hit record.
01:34:58.380 --> 01:35:01.100
So walk us forward a little bit and help us figure all that out.
01:35:01.420 --> 01:35:11.500
Yeah, well, I um yeah, I did you said that about that other expedition in another one which was rowing across the Atlantic that was leaving from the Canary Islands and rowing across the Caribbean.
01:35:11.659 --> 01:35:13.900
So it was about three, three and a half thousand miles.
01:35:13.980 --> 01:35:19.420
I think we did a bit more than that because the route we had to take, but about three and a half thousand miles, which to be honest with you, that was just pure luck.
01:35:19.500 --> 01:35:23.980
Because then there was um three guys, you know, all very successful businesses.
01:35:24.140 --> 01:35:35.260
They'd bought this ocean rowing boat and wanted to row across, and then they were looking for another team member um to join to kind of, I suppose, head up the team and lead the logistical and the getting across side.
01:35:35.420 --> 01:35:40.380
So they they had someone that knew me, and there was a bit of a link there, and they contacted me and said what I'll be interested.
01:35:40.460 --> 01:35:42.140
And I was like, Well, yeah, definitely.
01:35:42.300 --> 01:35:53.260
Um, I've I've I've got a history of like I read all the old exploring books, and you know, you look back in Vikings and Arab travel as well by boats, and I was always really intrigued by you know how people would just travel across oceans.
01:35:53.340 --> 01:35:57.020
So when they asked, I was just like, Yes, I do and asked about when it was or how it was going to happen.
01:35:57.100 --> 01:35:57.980
I was like, Yeah, I'm in.
01:35:58.220 --> 01:36:02.300
So I um I did that, and that was a that was a really cool experience.
01:36:02.940 --> 01:36:15.659
You know, I suppose the isolation of it and the the challenge of Matt reading and trying to get across successfully um was was was a big challenge physically and mentally, but also look back now and think how awesome it was.
01:36:15.739 --> 01:36:17.980
It was it was such a cool experience.
01:36:18.380 --> 01:36:22.940
How long were you uh it took 39 days to get across in total.
01:36:23.260 --> 01:36:28.619
So you and three guys who you probab presumably met shortly before departure, or did you start?
01:36:29.020 --> 01:36:39.980
Yeah, I actually knew that I'm I knew them a little bit before because we had about nine months, but we we you know we didn't really know each other that well, although we're very good friends now, luckily, because I think it goes one or the other way, right?
01:36:40.060 --> 01:36:43.500
So I've seen store I've heard stories of the complete opposite happening.
01:36:44.140 --> 01:36:51.100
Well, when you talk about I didn't know them that well, but contrasting that to after 39 days on a boat, yeah, I knew them very well.
01:36:52.699 --> 01:36:57.739
Yeah, well I I I used to have to see them taking a poo in a bucket every single day, so I know them very, very well.
01:36:59.819 --> 01:37:01.659
Okay, that's enough of that.
01:37:03.739 --> 01:37:04.619
But I get it.
01:37:04.779 --> 01:37:06.699
I I I get it, I get it completely.
01:37:06.940 --> 01:37:09.340
Alright, and then what was the next step after that?
01:37:09.659 --> 01:37:23.020
Well, no, during during that row, actually, it was the that was the spark for setting this company up because obviously I'd sold the previous business, I'd done a load of charity expeditions and challenges, but I was just watching my bank balance just disappear.
01:37:23.260 --> 01:37:25.900
I say that, I'm still watching it disappear now, to be honest with you.
01:37:26.460 --> 01:37:34.699
You know, the yeah, the um, you know, what I realized was from the sale of the previous company to what I've been doing, I'd lost a bit of confidence in myself.
01:37:34.859 --> 01:37:41.100
And during that row, it gave you so much time to think about things yourself in your own head with no other distractions.
01:37:41.180 --> 01:37:42.060
It was fantastic.
01:37:42.220 --> 01:37:45.100
So, and uh I remember speaking to one of the lads.
01:37:45.180 --> 01:37:47.020
We were we were in a storm, we hit a big storm.
01:37:47.100 --> 01:37:48.619
Well, I say hit the storm hit us.
01:37:49.260 --> 01:37:51.500
We couldn't get out of the way of it, we're too slow.
01:37:51.819 --> 01:37:57.500
And the storm we came, we we we had about 24 hours of being locked in the cabin, like with all our stuff tied down.
01:37:57.739 --> 01:38:05.500
And um, I was chatting to one of the lads uh called Dan, and I was asking about why he wanted to do it, and he his reason was he wanted a different story to tell.
01:38:05.659 --> 01:38:07.500
So he wanted this, you know, this story to tell.
01:38:07.579 --> 01:38:12.539
And I remember just this spark come in, and they were successful business owners and very self-confident.
01:38:12.779 --> 01:38:15.340
And I feel like I learned a lot from being around them as well.
01:38:15.420 --> 01:38:17.260
And I just started to get this idea in the head.
01:38:17.420 --> 01:38:19.340
I was like, well, literally, like I love guiding.
01:38:19.420 --> 01:38:30.380
Like I've been working doing freelance guiding already for other companies, but maybe I could do this myself because every time I guided for another company, there was always something that I was being like, we could do that better, that could be much better.
01:38:30.539 --> 01:38:35.739
And I was like, maybe I could do this self, but I think I've been delaying it because I've been lacking a bit of confidence to try it.
01:38:35.900 --> 01:38:42.619
So when I got back, I literally remember got to Antigua and I got my notepad out and started making some ideas of what I was going to do and how to create it.
01:38:42.779 --> 01:38:46.140
And uh, and then yeah, they obviously got back to the UK and started planning.
01:38:46.220 --> 01:38:54.380
And originally the business was going to be all over the world, so I'd already built a few trips and died quite a lot in different places, like Borneo in the jungles there.
01:38:54.539 --> 01:39:04.460
So I've been over to Borneo and then Iceland, did like a crossing of Iceland on big mountain fat mountain bikes, fat tire mountain bikes, and um done stuff in Africa.
01:39:04.539 --> 01:39:07.819
So I was a bit like I want to do trips dotted around everywhere.
01:39:08.060 --> 01:39:27.579
Was what I really well, you know, if we fast track a little bit, I realised that I because we were delivering every aspect of every trip, we couldn't actually compete against these massive organizations that sell trips all over the world because they do everything on they can do everything on such tight margins because they run so many trips and have such a hold on the market.
01:39:27.739 --> 01:39:30.539
So I was a bit like, actually, we need to become specialists here.
01:39:30.699 --> 01:39:39.819
Where that was going to be, I didn't know, but actually had some clients contact me and that I that I knew and guided before, and they said, Would you come and guide Kilimanjaro with us?
01:39:39.980 --> 01:39:42.380
So I just said, Yeah, definitely, like I can do that.
01:39:42.460 --> 01:39:43.980
And then we formulated the team.
01:39:44.140 --> 01:39:48.060
We did the first trip, and I was just like, okay, this is we're onto something here.
01:39:48.220 --> 01:39:51.900
I felt like my passion, you know, you just feel like your heart belongs somewhere.
01:39:51.980 --> 01:39:53.819
I felt that in this area here.
01:39:54.619 --> 01:40:15.579
And then, you know, we've then gone through all that process that we talked about right at the start of the call about how the business was as we've slowly developed it, we've built the team, um, you know, we brought in the guides that we wanted to, and then I suppose, you know, the biggest thing I'm proud of is how we actually look after the team now in terms of pay scales, opportunities for them, you know, outside of work as well that we're trying to fuel.
01:40:15.819 --> 01:40:20.220
Yeah, you know, and then that's probably just a very, very quick overview of how we've got to where we are.
01:40:20.539 --> 01:40:24.380
Out of at what point during all of that did you meet your wife?
01:40:24.940 --> 01:40:29.420
I met Jess actually when I was selling when was I sold the gym?
01:40:29.500 --> 01:40:35.420
I think I'd sold just sold the gym business and I had uh maybe just completed that.
01:40:35.500 --> 01:40:36.619
Well, I say completed it.
01:40:36.699 --> 01:40:50.940
I just scraped myself through the 24-hour chin-up challenge, and then um it was around that time, and we got introduced by a mutual friend, and uh, you know, you just meet someone and it's just like bam, you know, thus you just know that I don't know you do, I just knew straight away, and then here we are now.
01:40:53.659 --> 01:40:55.180
South Africa with our newborns.
01:40:55.340 --> 01:40:58.859
So I'm trying, I'm trying to imagine the conversation.
01:40:58.940 --> 01:41:02.940
You're like, okay, well, I've been a gym owner, you know, prior military.
01:41:03.100 --> 01:41:05.180
I've got this gym, I'm selling the gym.
01:41:05.340 --> 01:41:07.900
And I can just imagine the conversation.
01:41:08.060 --> 01:41:10.380
Probably one of the earlier questions she would ask you.
01:41:10.619 --> 01:41:12.460
So, Jack, what are you gonna do now?
01:41:13.739 --> 01:41:14.940
Do you remember what you told her?
01:41:15.180 --> 01:41:16.940
Yeah, I probably had I I've got no idea.
01:41:17.020 --> 01:41:18.460
It's probably the answer I gave her.
01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:20.380
And she stuck around, okay.
01:41:20.539 --> 01:41:21.739
Yeah, yeah, she stuck around.
01:41:21.819 --> 01:41:23.980
Yeah, no, she's I'll tell you what, I'm very lucky.
01:41:24.060 --> 01:41:24.699
I'll tell you that now.
01:41:24.779 --> 01:41:26.300
I know for a fact I'm very lucky.
01:41:26.940 --> 01:41:28.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:41:28.940 --> 01:41:33.739
I uh I, you know, I I I knew I was gonna go into some form of venture, it was whether I was gonna be guiding.
01:41:33.819 --> 01:41:39.260
I was guiding for other companies at the time, so I was working a little bit, you know, um here and there traveling around.
01:41:39.340 --> 01:41:42.619
But so she's been part of that since since we got together.
01:41:42.699 --> 01:41:44.699
So she knows, I suppose she knows the game.
01:41:44.859 --> 01:41:50.699
What I'm trying to do now with the business, especially now we have Leo, is is not be away too much.
01:41:51.100 --> 01:42:05.340
Um, you know, whereas before often would be away for a few months, now, you know, that's not what I want to do anymore, which is why we've been building this business to, you know, and build and really work on the team to be able to deliver every aspect of what we do on the mountain now for that reason.
01:42:05.659 --> 01:42:08.779
I I've heard you say we, but I also realise you've got other people on the team.
01:42:08.859 --> 01:42:10.940
But I'm curious, is Jess involved in the business?
01:42:11.020 --> 01:42:13.020
Is this something she's excited about as well?
01:42:13.340 --> 01:42:13.739
Yeah, yeah.
01:42:13.900 --> 01:42:15.020
Jess helps actually.
01:42:15.100 --> 01:42:19.659
So um so Jess runs our social media because I'm not very good at that and she's really talented at that.
01:42:19.739 --> 01:42:35.020
So she does our social media and she has had to, she did start to step in and help a bit more more recently because basically we got we were getting too busy and a lot of the work was was coming through me, all the comms and organization, and I was just getting to a point where I was having I was working too much and couldn't keep up.
01:42:35.180 --> 01:42:43.739
So um she stepped in and started to help with some administration, but you know, it's still relatively difficult now because Leo takes up a lot of of her time in the daytime.
01:42:43.900 --> 01:42:47.100
So we've been when I say we, you know, we've got a team, it's not just me.
01:42:47.180 --> 01:42:56.779
So we've got we've got myself, you know, in terms of our headquarters team, we've got myself, we've got Jackson who is kind of like the mountain, he, you know, he's he's spent so much time on the mountain.
01:42:56.940 --> 01:43:01.020
He makes sure that all the mountain delivery goes really well with my input.
01:43:01.180 --> 01:43:14.619
And then we have Happy, who's recently joined the team, who works here at the office, and her role is basically more organization, permits, paperwork, lots of things that would usually take me a lot of time that she stepped in to start taking over that now.
01:43:14.699 --> 01:43:25.500
And then we've obviously got all our mountain team, which at the minute is, you know, we've we we've got about 120, maybe 120 staff members now that are in that working with us.
01:43:25.819 --> 01:43:28.699
Jack, I I have to ask you.
01:43:29.100 --> 01:43:36.619
Okay, so I'm just imagining the conversation between Jess and her parents or family, and it's like, yep, I met this great guy, Jack.
01:43:36.779 --> 01:43:41.100
We're gonna, you know, then she gets pregnant, and now she's in Africa with you.
01:43:41.260 --> 01:43:44.539
And I'm I'm thinking, like, how supportive are her parents?
01:43:44.779 --> 01:43:47.180
What's oh yeah, whatever you're wanting to share?
01:43:47.500 --> 01:43:48.380
They might hear this thing.
01:43:48.539 --> 01:43:50.460
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're incredible.
01:43:50.699 --> 01:43:54.060
Like, I'm actually really, really close with her parents, they've been super supportive.
01:43:54.220 --> 01:43:56.380
You know, they're FaceTime and a lot and speaking.
01:43:56.460 --> 01:44:00.220
And you know, when I say we're out here, we'll we we should we're sharing time between both.
01:44:00.380 --> 01:44:06.140
So this this time round is the first time we've got Leo out with us, so it's very much a trial to see how that's gone.
01:44:06.300 --> 01:44:11.659
So we're still we've got another, I think, four or five weeks out here now before we go back.
01:44:11.819 --> 01:44:17.020
And it's kind of like a building trial to see how Jess finds it and whether we want to share time between the both.
01:44:17.100 --> 01:44:24.859
And you know, I I will be very much dictated on what Jess and and Leo want, and I will follow that path um and uh we'll work that out.
01:44:24.940 --> 01:44:29.420
But again, I'm very I'm actually I'm I feel incredibly lucky because she's super supportive.
01:44:29.579 --> 01:44:34.940
If I just said, right, I'm gonna stop doing this now and gonna go and do something else, she'll be like, Yeah, cool, okay.
01:44:35.020 --> 01:44:36.140
Well, what what do we need to do?
01:44:36.220 --> 01:44:37.739
You know, so I'm very I'm very lucky.
01:44:37.819 --> 01:44:41.900
She's she's my number one supporter, even though I've come up with some terrible ideas.
01:44:42.619 --> 01:44:50.539
If I if I had a dating and relationship podcast, I would want you to come on and and help our listeners figure out how to meet a woman like that.
01:44:52.859 --> 01:44:53.900
I don't know how though.
01:44:53.980 --> 01:44:54.460
That's a problem.
01:44:54.539 --> 01:44:55.340
I don't know how.
01:44:55.980 --> 01:44:58.140
You're you're a very, very lucky man.
01:44:58.460 --> 01:44:59.020
Yeah, I am.
01:44:59.260 --> 01:45:01.340
Jack, we've just we've discussed a bunch of things.
01:45:01.420 --> 01:45:03.739
You've been gracious to share an awful lot of your time.
01:45:03.819 --> 01:45:05.739
I know more time than we probably thought.
01:45:05.819 --> 01:45:09.180
I and I also recognize we could probably keep going for another couple hours.
01:45:09.340 --> 01:45:13.900
But I'm curious, out of everything that maybe I missed, or what do you wish I would have asked you?
01:45:14.060 --> 01:45:23.340
Uh, what do you think, you know, what else do you want our listeners to know about you, about Tanzania, Kilimanjaro, life in general, or anything like that before we wrap up?
01:45:23.659 --> 01:45:35.020
Uh, I probably I probably think, you know, if you're it's probably just for anyone listening that wanting to come out and travel out to East Africa, is, you know, um, there there's massive differences in kind of like what you can come and do out here.
01:45:35.100 --> 01:45:50.300
And I think probably the biggest thing you should all be looking for is how the team are looked after because there's a lot of people that work in the tourist industry in East Africa and all throughout Africa, to be honest with you, that are earning very, very low wages that are enabling these cheaper trips.
01:45:50.380 --> 01:45:58.539
So I think it's probably, you know, when you, you know, if you were going to ask me about what do I think is some of the issues I see in the future for tourism out here, it's definitely that.
01:45:58.619 --> 01:46:01.340
It's pay scales for individuals working out here.
01:46:01.500 --> 01:46:06.779
And then, you know, I suppose the other question, which I love to talk about, is geopolitics for East Africa.
01:46:06.940 --> 01:46:08.539
But we've got we haven't got enough time for that.
01:46:08.619 --> 01:46:11.100
And you're gonna, you know, we would probably save that for another one.
01:46:11.340 --> 01:46:23.900
You know, you did you said something though that I recognize as a consumer, if I'm wanting to book a trip, I can hear what you're saying, you know, work with somebody that pays their staff well and and is res responsible and all this stuff.
01:46:24.140 --> 01:46:29.579
But I also recognize I could call an operator and I could say, geez, why is your trip 20% more expensive?
01:46:29.659 --> 01:46:31.420
And they say, Well, we pay our staff well.
01:46:31.579 --> 01:46:31.819
Okay.
01:46:32.300 --> 01:46:32.539
Really?
01:46:32.619 --> 01:46:32.779
Yeah.
01:46:32.940 --> 01:46:35.020
How do I how do I really know that?
01:46:35.180 --> 01:46:41.420
Because if I was an operator, wanted to make an extra 20% profit and didn't have any scruples, I could say that all day long.
01:46:41.500 --> 01:46:42.380
Our expenses are higher.
01:46:42.940 --> 01:46:43.260
Yeah.
01:46:43.579 --> 01:46:49.500
That's uh that's actually a massive issue in uh in the industry because there's not much auditing for that, any of that.
01:46:49.579 --> 01:47:02.539
We actually had a meeting with someone about that a few days ago here, um, because you got a lot of operators that will just say, you know, yeah, we're doing this and this, but but we know they're not because we we've hired their former staff members that have moved across to us.
01:47:02.779 --> 01:47:07.500
So um, but there there is an organization here on the mountain that's worth spotting, which is called KPAP.
01:47:07.659 --> 01:47:10.460
So the Killer Man Draw of Porters Assistance Program.
01:47:10.779 --> 01:47:17.180
So I would definitely, you know, if you ever want to come and climb the mountain, try and climb with a company that's following those rules and there's part of that badge.
01:47:17.260 --> 01:47:23.100
Actually, you know, we've been we've been getting assessed by them for the last two years, and we're gonna be getting our badge.
01:47:23.180 --> 01:47:23.579
What is it?
01:47:23.659 --> 01:47:25.819
I'm looking at the dates now on the next week.
01:47:25.900 --> 01:47:28.060
We officially get our badge, which I'm really happy about.
01:47:28.539 --> 01:47:38.220
So, you know, that badge will what that means is every climb we go on, we actually have someone that comes and audits us on that climb to make sure that doing really silly things you wouldn't expect.
01:47:38.380 --> 01:47:40.220
So, you know, that you'd expect a normal.
01:47:40.300 --> 01:47:47.180
So, like making sure the team are getting three hot meals a day, making sure their sleeping setup's correct, making sure they're getting paid the highest level of wages.
01:47:47.340 --> 01:47:55.340
So, um, you know, look at I suppose stage one is look at that, like if you know, that's the one audited factor on the mountain is this the KPAP.
01:47:55.579 --> 01:47:59.100
So, yeah, in terms of the Safaris, though, it's very different very, very difficult.
01:47:59.260 --> 01:48:01.819
It's very, very difficult because you said a lot of it's not audited at all.
01:48:02.060 --> 01:48:02.699
I can imagine.
01:48:02.859 --> 01:48:05.659
And I appreciate you mentioning that because that is the challenge.
01:48:05.819 --> 01:48:16.060
People can say I want to work with somebody who's paying their people well, but how do I know how how am I gonna talk to Jackson, your your team guy, you know, and figure out, hey Jackson, or how are they treating you?
01:48:16.140 --> 01:48:16.940
How are they paying you?
01:48:17.020 --> 01:48:18.140
I'm uh you know, yeah.
01:48:18.380 --> 01:48:20.380
Jackson, you know, that's that's impossible.
01:48:20.460 --> 01:48:23.980
So it's good that you've got at least something that you can point out to people.
01:48:24.140 --> 01:48:26.859
So, Jack, this was just super fun conversation.
01:48:27.020 --> 01:48:27.819
I knew it would be.
01:48:27.980 --> 01:48:30.779
I love connecting with a a former service person.
01:48:30.859 --> 01:48:31.900
Thank you for your service.
01:48:32.060 --> 01:48:35.980
And just thank you for showing up and uh sharing so much with our audience today.
01:48:36.060 --> 01:48:37.659
And I'll let you get back to your family.
01:48:37.739 --> 01:48:41.100
I know it's late, they're probably already asleep, but thank you so much for sharing your time.
01:48:41.659 --> 01:48:42.779
It's like 11 p.m.
01:48:42.859 --> 01:48:43.180
now here.
01:48:43.260 --> 01:48:43.420
Yeah.
01:48:43.579 --> 01:48:43.659
Yeah.
01:48:43.900 --> 01:48:44.220
11 p.m.
01:48:44.859 --> 01:48:45.420
11 now.
01:48:45.500 --> 01:48:47.980
So I'll be astraped to bed.
01:48:48.060 --> 01:48:49.260
And what time what time is it for you now?
01:48:49.340 --> 01:48:50.619
It's the afternoon, is it for you?
01:48:50.859 --> 01:48:52.300
It's uh yeah, it's only three.
01:48:52.380 --> 01:48:52.779
I'm good.
01:48:52.859 --> 01:48:56.940
But I've heard you say you can do things for 24 hours straight that are pretty exhausting.
01:48:57.100 --> 01:48:58.140
So we could just keep going.
01:48:58.220 --> 01:49:00.460
But anyway, Jack, thank you so much.
01:49:00.699 --> 01:49:05.260
Great, great pleasure to meet you, and I look forward to uh working out some projects together in the future.
01:49:05.500 --> 01:49:06.060
Amazing.
01:49:06.300 --> 01:49:07.020
Cheers, Jace.
01:49:07.100 --> 01:49:07.500
Thank you so much.
01:49:07.659 --> 01:49:08.220
See you later.
01:49:08.699 --> 01:49:09.020
Thanks.
01:49:09.100 --> 01:49:09.659
Bye bye.