Transcription complète de A Forensic Architect

00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:29.199 Today we'll ask Jorge McCormack what it's like to be a forensic architect. 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:34.240 We'll talk about how he uses sound to diagnose a building's problems. 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:44.280 How opposing attorneys try to trip him up when he's testifying, and what happens when you discover that a building's support beams are crumbling? 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:45.719 Stay with us. 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:56.520 When something goes badly wrong with a building, people start pointing fingers. 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:58.360 Then they call lawyers. 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:01.000 And the lawyers call Jorge. 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:05.759 His job is to figure out what went wrong with the building and why. 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:18.780 You know, whether it's a design issue, whether the engineer didn't do the correct calculations, whether the architect didn't design per code, whether he did not meet the standard of care, whether a contractor, you know, did not follow the plans. 00:03:18.780 --> 00:03:21.979 You know, there's a lot of investigating that has to happen. 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:23.659 And sometimes it's no one's fault. 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:26.460 Sometimes it's what we call an act of God. 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:36.919 About 80% of the time Jorge is hired by the defendant in a lawsuit, usually a contractor or subcontractor being sued by a building owner. 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:39.000 The rest of the time he's on the other side. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:40.520 So here's an example. 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:43.639 In one case there was a building owner who hired Jorge. 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:57.659 There had been some issues with the interior finishes in a building, and there was a lawsuit brewing, because the owner thought maybe the contractors didn't build it properly, so Jorge came out to look around. 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:02.379 And I was walking the exterior, I noticed that there was a lot of cracking on the stucco. 00:04:02.379 --> 00:04:03.819 And I'm like, huh, that's interesting. 00:04:03.819 --> 00:04:06.460 It's so, you know, stucco is like a cementitious finish. 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:07.979 It's kind of like a concrete. 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:08.520 Mm-hmm. 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:17.319 But it always cracks, you know, especially if it's on a wood substrate, because you know, wood and concrete are two unlike materials that expand and contract at different rates, right? 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.480 So stucco is always gonna crack. 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:23.480 But there's certain amounts of cracking that's allowable, tolerable, and and normal. 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:24.759 This is cracking way more. 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.399 So I tell the client, like, hey, let's go test the stucco. 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:28.519 Let's let's take some probes. 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:36.019 You know, let's just cut out a little section on the wall and measure the thickness to see if it was installed per for the ASDM standard. 00:04:36.019 --> 00:04:40.899 We get out there, we open a hole in the wall, we look behind the wall. 00:04:40.899 --> 00:04:44.100 The structural columns are gone. 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:49.199 The structural column like like the columns that are holding up the building basically. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:49.839 The building. 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:52.480 The holding up balconies holding up buildings. 00:04:52.620 --> 00:04:57.418 have deteriorated to the point where it is no longer structurally viable. 00:04:57.740 --> 00:04:58.300 Oh man. 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:00.459 And so w what does that actually look like? 00:05:00.459 --> 00:05:04.139 Does it look like rotted wood or what did you see? 00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:07.339 You can stick your finger through it and it just disintegrates. 00:05:07.339 --> 00:05:08.379 Oh man. 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:08.779 Yeah. 00:05:09.019 --> 00:05:10.060 That's terrifying. 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:13.339 So how come the building had not collapsed? 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:18.500 You know, because there's still a lot of redundancy, especially when it comes to wood frame buildings, right? 00:05:18.500 --> 00:05:18.978 Okay. 00:05:18.978 --> 00:05:31.379 The load path goes through a lot of different areas, but what happened is there was a design and construction issue that wasn't followed, and those wall cavities were basically acting like gutters. 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:33.160 And that was another clue because I wanted... 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:36.920 usually when we take probes, we take like little uh circular cores. 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:45.959 We come with with a bit, we drill in, we come out, and then we measure the different thicknesses of the stucco, the the OSB, the the the sheathing. 00:05:45.259 --> 00:05:46.139 What's OSB? 00:05:46.379 --> 00:05:48.379 OSB is oriented strand board. 00:05:48.379 --> 00:05:49.980 You know, people call it particle board. 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:50.459 Oh okay. 00:05:50.459 --> 00:05:55.660 I'm not a big fan of it because it doesn't if it ever gets moisture, it just turns into oatmeal. 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.600 It loses a lot of his structural uh ability. 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:02.360 So I you know, I I tend to say, you know, if you're gonna build out a wood, build out a plywood. 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:02.680 Yeah. 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:08.439 But OSB, you know, a lot of developers like it because it meets minimum standard and uh it's cheap. 00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:08.459 Okay. 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:10.620 But if it gets moisture, it just disintegrates. 00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:13.418 Like you can just grab it and pull it apart, right? 00:06:13.418 --> 00:06:19.500 So I I noticed that there was a peculiar issue with with some of the balcony details and some of the terraces. 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:26.060 And And I said, you know, let's instead of doing the cores, let's open up a a larger hole because I want to look behind there. 00:06:26.060 --> 00:06:32.939 And

that probably saved a lot of lives in the future because we had to come in and put emergency shoring on all the balconies. 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:38.759 And this all started out from the initial investigation was some interior finishes that were not right. 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:39.399 Oh man. 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:47.560 So you thought it was almost like a cosmetic story in a way and it turns out to be this building is gonna fall down unless we do something. 00:06:47.060 --> 00:06:50.500 Yeah, we had to scramble and and get everything uh shored up. 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.939 So we had to open up all all the walls and all the buildings. 00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:56.500 And yeah, it's it's still ongoing. 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:05.720 When you're hired by somebody, is your job to help the side that hired you, or are you supposed to be neutral? 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:07.839 We're supposed to be neutral. 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.720 So you're only as good as your reputation, right? 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:17.839 You know, and sometimes you have to deliver clients bad news, and especially attorneys, because attorneys have to figure out how they're going about their case. 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:25.918 And if you just give 'em something that they want to hear, you know, they may not have the leverage or they may have a lot more exposure than what they originally thought. 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:33.639 But nobody wants to pay you guys a bunch of money for a report and then have it favor the person they're up against in court. 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.279 Like how do they mitigate that risk? 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.720 Sometimes we will just do a verbal opinion. 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:45.680 So if if they don't want a full report, which you know takes time, it takes billable hours, we can just do our site investigation. 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:47.199 And a lot of times I'll start out with that. 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.879 And you say like, hey, do you wanna me to start out with the verbal report? 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:52.839 And a verbal report just it's just a phone call. 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:53.319 Okay. 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:55.720 And say like, hey, I think you have a lot of exposure here. 00:07:55.720 --> 00:08:00.519 I think your your client messed up here or your client oh, your client is free and clear. 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.920 Do you want us to rebut the report and go move forward? 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:06.879 So We we have these steps, you know, to kind of mitigate the cost. 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:07.759 Oh, okay. 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:16.639 So they can kinda get a a sidebar in advance before, you know, they pay you a huge fee and th they don't they don't want to be surprised at the end of that, in other words. 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.920 So there's ways that you can kind of signal how you're feeling about the situation. 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:21.639 Yeah. 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:27.000 And a lot of times like the attorneys will

just tell us from straight up like, hey, how big is our exposure here? 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.839 Or how little how good is our case or how bad is our case? 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:31.120 Should we just settle? 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:38.240 And you know, there's been times where I'll I'll tell the attorney I'll see something on site that uh another side missed. 00:08:38.139 --> 00:08:43.740 And I'm like, oh, hey, you might want to settle because you have a lot of exposure here. 00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:49.440 So it sounds like in your role the report is like a key piece of work product. 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.120 Like you're frequently filing official reports with clients, yeah? 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:53.600 Yeah. 00:08:54.259 --> 00:08:58.259 That's basically my new construction drawing, you know, my new rendering, right? 00:08:58.339 --> 00:08:59.860 My new beautiful product, right? 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:03.379 Which is funny because I went to architecture school because I don't like to read and write. 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:05.860 And now I'm in a profession that's where, that's all I do. 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:07.379 So read and write. 00:09:08.179 --> 00:09:10.659 And what does a report look like? 00:09:10.659 --> 00:09:12.500 I mean, is it is it five pages? 00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:13.620 Is it fifty pages? 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:14.820 Is it a thousand pages? 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:16.339 What should we envision? 00:09:16.259 --> 00:09:17.778 Oh, it depends on the case. 00:09:18.100 --> 00:09:28.578 You know, some are very simple, straightforward, and you know, if it's a big building with a lot of different issues, you know, if there's, you know, different disciplines, if there's a cost component to it. 00:09:28.458 --> 00:09:40.299 You know, we we have cost estimations to have a number to ask for or to rebut someone else's number if they're saying, like, hey, you you owe us X amount of money for all of the construction defects. 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:45.120 We can, you know, do our own analysis and say, no, we disagree with that number. 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:46.639 This is what the number is. 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.799 But the thing about the reports... 00:09:48.958 --> 00:09:55.519 Architects on the design side tend to be very romantic about our use of language when we talk about buildings. 00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:05.679 You know, we we use a lot of poetic language, you know, like uh creating a moment, creating you know, creating space that, you know you know, generates a feeling. 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:06.480 Mm-hmm. 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.799 Forensic architecture is the complete opposite. 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:10.639 It's almost like you're divorcing somebody. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.399 You're not courting anybody. 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:14.480 You're divorcing somebody, right? 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:15.039 Because you... 00:10:15.339 --> 00:10:16.458 And you have to be careful. 00:10:16.458 --> 00:10:19.419 You have to write in a certain way where you're not using, you know, absolutes. 00:10:19.419 --> 00:10:21.740 You know, you're not using flowery language. 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:33.339 You're not saying, like, for example, "This was an egregious violation of the building code." Well what make something "egregious" or what is a "minor" violation of the building code? 00:10:33.339 --> 00:10:34.860 It's either yes or no. 00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:38.120 It's either violating the building code or not violating the building code. 00:10:38.278 --> 00:10:40.759 So it's very factual, very simple. 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:48.198 It it's almost like when you see police officers testify on like TV uh uh crime dramas, like it's the facts. 00:10:48.198 --> 00:10:50.039 No embellishment, no nothing. 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:51.559 Just stick to the facts. 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:52.480 Yeah, exactly. 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.360 And you basically have to go out of your way to prove what you know. 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:04.860 So for example, I had a case where there was a building that the storm runoff was running on a neighboring property. 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:10.860 And I was writing in my report, the neighboring building, the roof is sloped from north to south. 00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:12.980 And I was and I was getting it QA/QC-ed, I'm like, well 00:11:13.539 --> 00:11:13.620 QA/QC? 00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:19.639 Quality Assurance/Quality Control. Before we send it out someone else peer reviews your report, right? 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.000 They're just nitpicking every aspect of what you've written basically. 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:23.799 Exactly. 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:28.440 So they were saying like how do you know that it's you know... Did you go up there and measure? 00:11:28.458 --> 00:11:31.179 No, I didn't go up there and measure 'cause it's obvious. 00:11:31.179 --> 00:11:31.740 No. 00:11:31.740 --> 00:11:32.778 It's not obvious. 00:11:32.778 --> 00:11:34.299 It's not obvious to the lay person. 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:39.339 It's not obvious to somebody reading this report how it is that you know that their roof was sloped because it's a low sloped roof. 00:11:39.339 --> 00:11:42.620 It's you know, it's only sloping at a quarter inch per foot. 00:11:42.620 --> 00:11:47.179 So I instinctually know that is sloped because there of course there's the gutters. 00:11:47.179 --> 00:11:50.139 But I had to go up there with a level and measure it. 00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:51.440 Okay Okay. 00:11:51.440 --> 00:12:01.440 But this seems like I mean I imagine it's very annoying, but it also seems encouraging somehow that there are mechanisms to make sure these things are as accurate as possible. 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:07.179 Yeah, because you you basically want to shut down every avenue for the opposing counsel to question on how you know something. 00:12:07.179 --> 00:12:09.980 You know, I know something because X, Y, and Z. 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:11.840 You know, I looked up

property records. 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.919 You know, according to the property records, this building was built X, Y, and Z. 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.360 It has this type of foundation, it has this type of windows. 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:20.960 This is how I know. 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:32.580 So if an opposing counsel is taking a crack at you, is that usually happening in the courtroom or like in a deposition or in a mediation or all the above? 00:12:33.059 --> 00:12:37.139 Depositions now, like most of my depositions have been on Zoom. 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:37.860 Oh. 00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:39.139 Usually in my office. 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:41.460 That's gotta take some of the stress out of it, right? 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:42.740 Not all of it, I'm sure, but... 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:44.000 Yeah. 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.919 Um, you know, like but trials are usually in the courtroom sometimes. 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:49.519 Sometimes they allow you to video. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:55.679 It really depends on, you know, if it's a federal case or if it's state court or municipal court. 00:12:55.620 --> 00:13:01.458 But what you know what what they say is that the the witness stand is a very lonely place because no one's gonna come to defend you. 00:13:01.458 --> 00:13:05.299 Even your own attorney that's on your side, they don't stop the line of questioning. 00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:07.458 They may object to the line of questioning. 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:12.460 But you still have to answer because you're under oath and some attorneys can be ruthless. 00:13:12.460 --> 00:13:16.779 You know, they start attacking your your credibility, they start attacking you personally. 00:13:16.779 --> 00:13:22.039 And you know, as long as you understand that it's it's not personal You know, it's just part of the game. 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:23.720 You know, it's just part of the business. 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:29.559 And you understand if you're not taking those shots personally and don't let 'em get onto your skin because a lot of times that's what they're trying to do. 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:31.720 It's they're trying to get you riled up. 00:13:31.299 --> 00:13:39.139 To get you to make a mistake, to make you say something that you shouldn't have said so they can, you know, go down that line of uh questioning. 00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:50.080 That seems like an easy thing to understand intellectually, "Don't let them rile you up, it's not personal." But it seems like it'd be a very hard thing not to feel in the moment when they're coming at you. 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.240 Like how how did you learn to show patience in those situations? 00:13:54.839 --> 00:14:02.120 It's not easy, but you just sometimes you just just think of it as a game or just think of it as if they're not really talking about you personally. 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.198 They're they're talking about a fictional person named Jorge McCormack, you know. 00:14:05.958 --> 00:14:09.559

And you just kinda have this third party experience where it's they're not attacking you. 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:12.839 And y and you know when they start to do that, they don't have a case. 00:14:12.839 --> 00:14:16.360 Oh, so it it's almost like a sign of weakness, yeah. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:16.559 Huh. 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:25.600 Yeah, yeah, because if if the facts are on the side, they you argue the facts, but if the facts are not on the side, they'll try to discredit you as an expert witness. 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:31.600 And so what are the kind of tactics that you've seen other attorneys use to try to rattle you? 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:37.019 So Sometimes they'll they'll go into your past, they'll look at your work history. 00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:39.019 Oh, why why did you leave design? 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:40.299 Why did you come to this field? 00:14:40.299 --> 00:14:42.059 Is it because they pay you more money? 00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:45.419 Is it because you couldn't cut it as a design architect? 00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:46.539 Wait, are you serious? 00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:50.620 That that is such a like just generic bully kind of question. 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:51.659 Like they know nothing. 00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:52.539 They have no information. 00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:55.659 They're just kind of hoping you'll dangle something that's juicy 00:14:55.659 --> 00:15:00.460 Yeah, you you know, for you say like, yeah, you know, I I make a lot more money doing this than I ever didn't design. 00:15:00.460 --> 00:15:03.100 Like, oh so you're basically a mercenary. 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:04.379 You're just doing this for no money. 00:15:04.379 --> 00:15:06.220 You don't really care, do you? 00:15:05.958 --> 00:15:13.080 You know, according to the AIA code of ethics, you know that it's imp you know, you can get kicked out of the organization for lying. 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:14.360 Are you lying right now? 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.679 They'll they'll do little things like that. 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:18.639 That is so infuriating. 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:19.120 Yeah. 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.159 And you gotta remember, you are under oath. 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:23.360 They are not. 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.399 So you have to be truthful and you have to be dead honest. 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:38.960 And they'll try to get you to agree to things that are not necessarily engineering or architecture or technical, you know, questions they'll, you know, say like was this design safe, for example? 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:40.679 Well what is safe? 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:42.519 What does safe mean? 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:48.440 You design things to engineering and architectural standards, right? 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:57.198 So for example, a road is designed per engineering standards, but you still have accidents on roads all the time. 00:15:57.198 --> 00:15:59.440 People die in car accidents all the time. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:01.759 Does that mean

the road is unsafe? 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:03.940 No, the road is not unsafe. 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:06.820 The road is designed per engineering standards. 00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:12.659 Coming up a part of the job that's even worse than being grilled by opposing attorneys? 00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:13.860 Stay with us. 00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:25.980 I'm Reema Krais, and on This Is Uncomfortable, we talk about the emotional side of money, what it does to our relationships, our sense of self, and the choices we make. 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:31.360 Each week I talk with real people and experts about the parts of money we usually keep to ourselves. 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:36.840 Tune in every Thursday to hear conversations and stories about life and how money messes with it. 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:41.000 Listen to This Is Uncomfortable on your favorite podcast app. 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.639 Has AI changed your job or the way you do it? 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:50.078 Not yet. 00:16:50.078 --> 00:16:53.360 AI can help a lot when it comes to... 00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:00.559 You know, sometimes you'll you'll get a a a set of documents and a lot of times I I know lawyers do this intentionally. 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:08.558 They'll save everything as a PDF, whether it's an email, whether it's a photo, whether it's a pay application, whether they're drawings, right? 00:17:08.259 --> 00:17:12.578 And they'll just take a raw database file where they remove all the file names. 00:17:12.578 --> 00:17:17.298 And you know, I have one case where they gave me 41,000 files. 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:19.299 None of them had names. 00:17:19.299 --> 00:17:20.660 They were all disorganized. 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:21.940 And they're like, here you go. 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:23.380 Here's our case file. 00:17:23.380 --> 00:17:24.338 Right, right. 00:17:24.338 --> 00:17:27.619 So how do I know what to look for? 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:34.380 Luckily we have AI tools that can sift through a lot of the documents and say, hey, find me the uh pay applications. 00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:35.660 How much did this cost? 00:17:35.660 --> 00:17:37.579 Find me all the RFIs. 00:17:37.619 --> 00:17:39.779 And you know, it can it can kind of sort that. 00:17:39.779 --> 00:17:48.660 You still have to read everything because, you know, this is your name on your report, but it could save a bunch of time just by going through all of those documents. 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.038 God, that's a great use case. 00:17:50.038 --> 00:17:59.319 So does that mean that the file dump we always see on like legal shows you know where one side hazes another by sending over, you know, a U-Haul truck full of documents? 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.000 Is AI gonna fix that trick, you think? 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.278 That's a digital version of that. 00:18:03.278 --> 00:18:09.839 And a lot of times they'll what they'll do is they'll rasterize their PDFs so you can't do a control F. 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.440 And

they just dump it on you. 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:17.079 And then like you're looking through photos and you know you're trying to see their photos and they're all saved as PDFs. 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:22.519 Like, oh man, I know they do this intentionally because they're trying to like drive up the cost on billiable hours. 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:26.420 What's the absolute worst part of your job? 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:28.099 Being away from my kids. 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:31.059 Because a lot of times you can't really plan around... 00:18:31.059 --> 00:18:34.500 Like for example, I just got back from being out of state. 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:41.798 I missed my son's Cub Scout meeting it was the first Cub Scout meeting of the year where we were gonna sell popcorn and he wanted me to be there. 00:18:41.798 --> 00:18:51.000 But you know, there's an emergency and you know, I just got a call now again to I have to be down in South Florida next week for a few days. 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:57.640 And so this is part of the job that when duty calls, it's not predictable, but when you get the call, like you have to go. 00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:01.859 You have to go and a lot of times you buy tickets one way 'cause you don't know when you're coming back. 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:06.659 Especially during what we call the cat season, um, which is catastrophic events. 00:19:06.659 --> 00:19:08.898 You know, like the the earthquake in Colombia. 00:19:08.898 --> 00:19:12.579 You know, I'm still waiting on the call for us to go down there. 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.079 So how long might you be gone? 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.679 It it could be a day or two days or a week. You just don't know. 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:20.720 And that's tough. 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:37.339 And and my son, especially when he came to our our headquarters we have photos of, you know, sometimes we do facade inspections and we have to rappel down buildings or hang off a swing stage, which you know, when it's when it's windy and it's hot, it's it's not fun, but it's part of the job. 00:19:37.419 --> 00:19:39.740 You have to rappel down buildings. 00:19:39.740 --> 00:19:43.099 I I had no idea there was like a daredevil part of this job. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:43.759 Yeah. 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:44.160 Yeah. 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:45.359 I haven't done it yet. 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.920 There's a couple of people in our in our company that do do that. 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.079 I do go off swing stages and booms. 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:51.759 What's a swing stage? 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:54.059 It's basically a like a suspended platform. 00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:54.539 Okay. 00:19:54.539 --> 00:20:03.900 You know, sometimes they use it for clean cleaning windows, but you know, when we're doing facade inspections, we'll we'll go off of that from the top of the building, sometimes like a forty story building. 00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:06.859 In New York City we we do a lot of the rappelling stuff. 00:20:06.859 --> 00:20:07.339 Okay. 00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:17.819 But, anyway, so he thinks my son, he's seven, he thinks that's what I'm doing every time I go to work, so he cries and cries he because he thinks I'm gonna get killed. 00:20:18.298 --> 00:20:21.099 He thinks I'm I'm gonna uh an accident's gonna happen. 00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:22.380 Oh poor thing. 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.579 You need to show him the report writing part of your job. 00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:35.940 Well, he he does see that, but he also he'll also see that, you know, like for example in Alabama was I was eighty feet in the air on a boom that was moving a lot, let's just say. 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:37.779 Uh looking at that facade. 00:20:37.779 --> 00:20:40.579 And I took a selfie when I was up there and sent it to my wife. 00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:43.460 And I'm like, hey, make sure Jorge knows I'm not doing this. 00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:45.380 You know, my son knows I'm not doing this. 00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:51.500 This is a fun job to hear about because it has so many seemingly disconnected parts. 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:56.859 You have the kind of holistic designish vision of the architect. 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:04.200 And you have the like hands-on, you know, eyeballs and hands-on a stucco finish detective work. 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:18.359 And then you have like the analytical work of compiling reports and formatting them And then you have this kind of full combat, you know, facing down an opposing attorney, which is performative and verbal. 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.000 Like it's just a really weird mix of skills that you need to be good at this. 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:29.380 It's a lot of different things and that's why I fell in love with the profession because it's not sitting in front of a computer all day. 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:32.019 A lot of it's being out in the field, you know. 00:21:32.019 --> 00:21:39.200 You get to play with a lot of cool tools, you know, you get to fly with the drone or you get to use these fancy moisture meters. 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:45.920 And you have to build a story because, you know, you you really have to think outside the box, like what could be causing this? 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:50.900 So, Jorge, we always end our episodes with a quick lightning round of questions. 00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:52.099 Here we go. 00:21:52.099 --> 00:21:56.740 What is a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know? 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:57.779 And what does it mean? 00:21:58.299 --> 00:21:59.420 Envelope. 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:01.339 The building envelope. 00:22:01.339 --> 00:22:02.220 Envelope. 00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:02.700 Yes. 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:06.700 The building envelope is the thing that encapsulates the building. 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:10.619 The exterior walls, the windows, the doors, the roof. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:12.799 That's all part of the envelope, right? 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:13.279

Okay. 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.200 And fenestration, which is another fancy word of saying doors and windows. 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.640 I only know that from the word defenestration. 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.799 But I never thought about what fenestration means. 00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:25.500 Yeah. 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:30.778 What's the most insulting thing you could say about a forensic architect's work? 00:22:30.778 --> 00:22:33.579 Oh, I I mean about forensic architect. 00:22:33.579 --> 00:22:46.339 Well the the most insulting thing I hear about architects is that all we do is make pretty pictures One anecdote I heard is that an architect was not smart enough to be an engineer, but not creative enough to be an interior designer, so we're somewhere in the middle. 00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:48.099 That's not the case. 00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:52.819 The amount of knowledge that you have to have in order to become a licensed architect. 00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:58.740 It takes an average of ten years for someone who starts out architecture school to become a licensed architect, right? 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:04.599 You know, there's a lot of all-nighters, you know, there's a plethora of knowledge that you have to digest. 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.880 At least in my day, it was seven day-long exams. 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:08.440 Whoa. 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.599 And in some states like California, they require an additional exam. 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:16.700 So it's a lot of examination, a lot of school and architecture school is not cheap. 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:21.660 What is a tool specific to your profession that you really like using? 00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:23.500 Oh, this is my favorite one. 00:23:23.500 --> 00:23:26.220 It is called the Tramex RWS. 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.940 It is a pinless moisture meter. 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:30.220 Pinless moisture? 00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:32.539 What does the pinless part mean? 00:23:32.500 --> 00:23:39.859 So a lot of moisture meters have these two electrical probes that will measure the resistance, the electrical impedance between one pin and the other. 00:23:39.859 --> 00:23:40.339 Oh, I see. 00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:44.579 And you know, if it's more conductive, it could be a sign that there's some moisture in in that wall 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:44.799 Yeah. 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:55.519 What I like about the the Tramex is that not only is it pinless, so you don't have to destroy anything, you have to poke anything, but it can actually measure moisture on up to four inches into any type of wall assembly. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:01.980 So it sends like an electromagnetic pulse from a sender to the receiver and it sees, you know, the difference. 00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:07.740 It's a very expensive, very high tech piece of equipment that looks like it's straight out of the seventies, right? 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:10.259 It looks like an old fashioned tape recorder. 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:13.299 Or out of

Star Wars, like the original Star Wars movie. 00:24:13.299 --> 00:24:13.779 Yeah. 00:24:13.779 --> 00:24:28.480 It has these like big buttons, but it's a very high-tech piece of equipment and what's great about it is that it can guide you as to where you need to potentially open something up or where you where you need to investigate further without actually having to rip up the whole building. 00:24:28.919 --> 00:24:33.640 What phrase or sentence strikes fear in the heart of a forensic architect? 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:35.798 The Daubert motion. 00:24:35.798 --> 00:24:36.119 Oh. 00:24:36.859 --> 00:24:46.220 The Daubert motion is something that an opposing attorney can um issue and basically it's undermining your credibility. 00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:53.500 So if they're saying that you are not a credible witness, they can get you thrown off a case as an expert witness, it's a Daubert motion. 00:24:53.500 --> 00:25:06.799 You know, they'll go to the judge and say, hey, this person is not credible because of X, Y, and Z, or they dig up something in your past or they find something in your report that is not credible or is incorrect, they can file a Daubert motion and get you removed from a case. 00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:15.059 Now is this the kind of thing that they try a Hail Mary every case just to see if it'll work, or is it like really reserved for weird, rare instances? 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:23.200 No, sometimes they'll they'll threaten it in a in a case but you know, i they can file it, but if it's not accepted, you know, i it doesn't go anywhere. 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:34.119 But yeah, if that does happen that stays on your record forever as an expert witness and that could be the death knell for for you as an expert witness because it it undermines your credibility, especially if it's if it's accepted. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.960 Because now from them on, every opposing attorney is like, "Isn't it true that you were Dauberted?" Or whatever the verb is. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:46.240 Yeah, you got removed from a case, you know, a Daubert motion was filed against you and you got removed from a case. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.880 I mean, have you known anybody that that happened to? 00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:54.259 Personally, no, I've heard people have had it threatened against them, but they never follow through with it. 00:25:54.259 --> 00:25:58.180 Um, because it's it's kind of a high standard to get yourself thrown off a case. 00:25:58.259 --> 00:26:00.339 Um and it usually has to be something egregious. 00:26:00.339 --> 00:26:11.538 You lied on your resume about your uh your past or you know, there there was one case where an expert witness used AI to write his report and he used a free version of Chat GPT. 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:12.460 Oh man. 00:26:12.460 --> 00:26:13.500 And it was a big case. 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:19.339 And her prompt was like, hey, write me an expert report where our client has zero culpability. 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:20.140 Come on. 00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.339 That does not put the profession in a good light, does it? 00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:23.740 No. 00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:29.159 What is a sound specific to your profession that you're likely to hear? 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.839 The hollow sounding of stucco or concrete. 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:44.220 So a lot of times when water gets behind a you know a wall cavity uh or gets behind stucco There's this metal lav that they use to uh adhere stucco to. 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:46.700 That's just like a small chicken wire mesh 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:46.859 Okay. 00:26:46.859 --> 00:26:51.819 If water gets in there it starts to rust and when things start to rust they expand, right? 00:26:51.819 --> 00:26:55.819 So it starts to delaminate from the stucco assembly, right? 00:26:55.819 --> 00:27:00.859 So you you sometimes you take a hammer and you do a tap test and you can hear, you know, like a hard sound like... 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:05.660 it starts to change. 00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:12.339 When you start to change, that's another clue that, you know, water has been um or in concrete as well, you know, with with the rebar. 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:13.940 It starts to sound hollow. 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:18.059 Um and then you you can mark that area where you have to open up and investigate further. 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:26.900 Another sound which is really scary is the the case I was mentioning earlier where You stick your finger through a a a wood column and it disintegrates. 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:29.380 It's almost like biting into a rice crispy. 00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:31.380 It just falls apart in your hand. 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.460 Oh man, that's a great analogy. 00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:35.380 I can totally imagine that. 00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:38.740 And I can imagine how terrifying it would be to do that. 00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:41.220 Yeah, especially when you were standing underneath it. 00:27:41.940 --> 00:27:46.099 What is an aspect of your work that you consistently savor? 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:56.900 When you get uh compliments from your attorneys, especially if you have an opposing uh attorney hired you for the next case, but that's more on the business end of things. 00:27:56.900 --> 00:28:06.019 The more spiritual side of things, especially when you're on a plaintiff case, when a client will come and thank you and say how much they appreciate you fixing their building. 00:28:06.019 --> 00:28:11.720 You know, because for a lot of people their buildings are not just a financial investment. 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:13.559 It's where their families live. 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:16.359 It's where their kids play. 00:28:16.339 --> 00:28:25.700 And to find out what's causing an issue and to make a building safe and to see the the appreciation that you you'll get sometimes is that's why I do it, you know. 00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:35.000 That's because a lot of times, you know, uh a client will be put

in a really bad position by buying a really, you know, really poorly designed, poorly constructed building. 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:36.359 And they're living under this. 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:43.960 You know, they're living with with the constant fear of, you know, getting sick from the building or the building collapsing or the building, you know, or whatever number of issues it could have. 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:54.240 But you you coming in and and fixing it and you know making it making it a safe place for people to raise their family, that's always rewarding. 00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:08.539 Jorge McCormack is a forensic architect in Florida. 00:29:09.140 --> 00:29:13.859 So folks, this is the last episode of season one. 00:29:13.859 --> 00:29:17.859 And don't worry, there is a season two coming, more on that next week. 00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:23.380 And yes, for the record, this was a three-year 83 episode season. 00:29:23.740 --> 00:29:29.259 In all that time, we've never had a reflection about AI. 00:29:29.259 --> 00:29:30.940 It's time. 00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:37.660 I believe AI is going to be the single greatest force in our lifetime affecting work. 00:29:37.539 --> 00:29:44.660 And this conversation with Jorge was almost like a trailer for that impact, both the good and bad. 00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:53.799 The bad, well, that guy who got busted for using AI to spin up his report That's the worst case scenario. 00:29:53.799 --> 00:30:04.119 That human beings get so lazy and so dependent that people stop reading and thinking and we just outsource our brains to AI. 00:30:04.679 --> 00:30:16.679 On the other hand, there's promise too, the way Jorge uses AI to sift through 41,000 files dumped on him by the other team, looking for the bits that are important. 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:19.558 That's pretty magical. 00:30:19.558 --> 00:30:22.359 And then there's what's coming. 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:32.660 What if an AI could fly its own drone to a building with a pinless moisture detector hooked up to it, would that be good or bad? 00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:45.180 What if the attorney cross-examining Jorge had an AI agent monitoring his testimony in real time to identify little inconsistencies that the lawyer could use to trip him up? 00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:50.380 The point is not to marvel or recoil at the technology. 00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:57.519 For us on this show, it's to assess its effects on how people experience their jobs. 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:04.700 Because this is a show about what it's like to be people of different professions. 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:10.539 And for better or worse, those professions are changing right now. 00:31:10.539 --> 00:31:12.619 And we'll be a witness to it. 00:31:14.038 --> 00:31:27.480 Listening for hollow spots in stucco, keeping your cool while lawyers try to rattle you, compiling reports full of defensible facts, and diagnosing the flaws and risks in the spaces that people depend on. 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:34.960 Folks, that's what it's like to be a forensic architect. 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:47.839 A shout out To recent Apple Podcast reviewers, we've got Griswold Bookbinder, DonCheetwood, Ob-1, SnowQueen1720, Slimb, looking for comfort, and Nora GSD. 00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:51.579 This episode was produced by Matt Purdy. 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:52.940 I'm Dan Heath. 00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:54.460 See you soon.