Transcription complète de Introducing: Psychoanalyzing the Patient

thought was interesting was just like 60 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:49.680 his kind of quiet life right Like he's flossing his teeth. He seems like 61 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.879 it does a good job flossing his teeth and you know, making himself food 62 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:01.720 and cutting up his fruit and putting like foot cream on like like that's kind 63 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.920 of I don't know. I was just wondering about that, Like, what 64 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:12.319 did you think about that, Lindsay. I mean, it definitely reinforces the 65 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:18.319 part where he is alone and lonely, and definitely seems like in a way 66 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:25.920 he has kind of retreated from himself a little bit. He seems definitely like 67 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:32.560 his entire demeanor feels very heavy, as if he is really holding a lot 68 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:41.040 of stuff in about himself, and he doesn't seem to be at ease with 69 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.240 anything. He's just looks like he's kind of going through the motions a little 70 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.199 bit. I have one other thing to add because I was telling talking to 71 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.439 my friend Stephie. Here's a shout out to my friend Stephie. I watch 72 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:56.879 all these shows with anyway. She sent me a text yesterday that said something 73 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.720 like I kind of hate it when they make the serial killer kind of attractive. 74 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.519 And I just like burst out laughing when I read that, Like, 75 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:14.319 Okay, like, I guess we're not supposed to be attracted to the serial 76 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.959 killer, but um, you know, and and I and I texted you 77 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.879 yesterday and I said, wait, this Dominal Gleason is you know, played 78 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:27.480 one of the Weasley Twins in all the Harry Potter films, and um, 79 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:31.199 he's Brendan Gleason's son, so he's really, you know, um, quite 80 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.920 well known. Of course Steve Carrell is um so well known. Um, 81 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:42.120 so it's gonna be a great show. Yeah, you wouldn't know that he 82 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:46.680 wasn't American from the show, right, He's got no trace of his Irish 83 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:51.399 accent at all, none at all nothing. So what do you think is 84 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:56.480 going to happen next? I mean, we know we watched the second episode 85 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.240 right away, but where do you think it's gonna go. Do you think 86 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:03.480 he's gonna cure him? I don't know. I mean, I don't know, 87 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.319 can you cure him? What does it cure? Mean? What is 88 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:11.000 that? What is that? I don't even know there's I mean, on 89 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.720 the one hand, you're like kind of rooting for Steve Garrel just to get 90 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:17.680 free, but then you're like, what happens if he guests free? Like 91 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:23.160 how do we get out of this? So yeah, I don't know. 92 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:27.279 I have to say I'm really worried for him. Yeah, I think that's 93 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:31.439 a good question, because like how can this possibly end? You know, 94 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.120 like, he's not gonna I'm gonna tell you right now, he's not going 95 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:41.879 to cure him in ten sessions, and so someone has to die. That's 96 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.759 my prediction. Someone has to die, and it's either going to be Alan 97 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.240 or Sam. All right, well, it sounds like we need an expert 98 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:53.279 here, Stacy, who is our guest this week? Doctor Frank Summers is 99 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:59.120 a training and supervising analyst at the Chicago Institute for Psychoanalysis. He has authored 100 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:03.839 several books and has published widely in psychoanalytic journals. He holds several honors and 101 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:11.879 distinctions for numerous distinguished professional organizations around the country, including the Professor of Clinical 102 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:18.639 Psychiatry and the Behavioral Sciences at Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University, where 103 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.680 he was my clinical supervisor. One of the things I'm going to say that 104 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.519 I do want to say, just to kind of lead in here, is 105 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:33.279 because I know that you know that you were my supervisor in graduate school. 106 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.679 And I don't know if you know this, you probably do, but you 107 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.799 know you were a little intimidating back then, you know, a few years 108 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:48.000 ago that was Do you know that that you were a little intimidating back then? 109 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.840 Frank I have heard that, said, yes, have you heard that? 110 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.200 Okay, I never experienced myself that way, never quite believed it. 111 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.720 But you're not the first person to tell me that. So yeah, okay, 112 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.200 well, but I'm so glad that you know, um, we're on 113 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.159 the other side of that now and I we can just be colleagues. So 114 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.240 so I'm just gonna say, welcome, Frank, how are you. I'm 115 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.600 just fine, thank you, and thank you so much for having me in 116 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.279 the show and inviting me. I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks for 117 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.600 being here. I'm totally not intimidated by you. There's no reason to be. 118 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:26.519 Okay, good, my children aren't. I

don't know anyone else, 119 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:35.159 shit be I have a similar relationship with my children. So I thought of 120 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:41.360 you, Frank when UM we came up with this idea to UM do a 121 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.120 podcast on this show, because I thought, who what, what psychologist? 122 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.320 What I most want to talk to about? How how the psychologist is you 123 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:56.440 know, UM played here and the patient and the whole process. So so 124 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.200 I'm really excited and I'm just gonna say, like, what do you think 125 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.679 of the show? So are you watched the first episode? Yeah? I 126 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.840 did. It was actually I watched the first two as I was the second 127 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:11.240 one also but sneak the head. But I really liked it. I thought 128 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.799 it was very creative. The idea is very creative. I think there are 129 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.039 some, as you'll see, I think some flaws in it, but I 130 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.600 think that a concept is creative. I think it's very dramatic. I think 131 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.960 it's fascinating the interaction between the two characters. Whoever thought of the idea I 132 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.399 think deserves a lot of credit for coming up with a real thoughtful, creative 133 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.759 way to kind of get two people to interact Tom in ways that they would 134 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:41.159 not ever have been able to do in any other context. I don't think 135 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.639 you know so um so I like to show it to kind of show that 136 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.360 potenty in and I probably will watch all the episodes. Oh good, good, 137 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:54.159 thank you. How it comes out, I have to say, watching 138 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.559 it right away, the first thing that really occurred to me was just like 139 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.000 what a daily life of a therapist is like that? Like that when they 140 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:09.080 it's flashes back to his life at the big you know, before before the 141 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.559 scenario begins, and you're sort of seeing this sort of like collage of patience, 142 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:18.360 this montage of patients, that go by. And this is probably because 143 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.960 um, I'm not a therapist at all, and I only understand therapy from 144 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:26.320 being a patient, which is basically, I walk into the office and I 145 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.879 talk all about myself and then I leave and I think, wow, that 146 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.279 must have been really interesting for the person who had to sit there with me. 147 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.600 But that actually it is like this sort of montage of people who are 148 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:41.159 coming in with their their things. Does it feel like that when you're a 149 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.600 therapist? Does it feel like you're just like in a wash of people and 150 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:48.519 there and their problems and it starts to all blend together like that? Is 151 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:54.279 that? Is that how it is? And well everything I would say yes 152 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.480 up until when you say they blend together, And to me, people don't 153 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.559 blod together so much. But the montage of people coming in, that's what's 154 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.120 fascinating about it. That's what I love about it. Everybody's different. One 155 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:09.360 thing you learn right away as a psychotherapist, and I think I conveyed this 156 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.399 to Stacy would Choose my student alone many years ago, is that you first 157 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.759 you realize that everybody's different, and everybody assumes the way they are is the 158 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.919 way the world is. Everyone assumes, well, of course this is how 159 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.120 it is, because that's how they were brought up. That's all they know, 160 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.120 right. But it's totally different from the next person who walks in, 161 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.279 who says, well, of course this is how it is, and it's 162 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:33.679 totally different, right, because whatever your experience was, that's how you just 163 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.360 think the world is. That's how you think a family is. If you 164 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.480 were beaten up, you think every kid gets beaten up. If you were 165 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:46.120 treated with kid gloves and in a sensitivity, you assume that that's how all 166 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.879 parents are. And so that's one of the fascinating things about it. My 167 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:56.399 impression, Frank from this the therapy that Alan is doing. It looks to 168 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.879 me like he's doing some psychodynamic psycho therapy, so he's not doing analysis. 169 00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:07.759 But um, I loved the comment he makes to who he thinks is Gene 170 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:15.480 at the time about Gene not opening up and how he feels a little frustrated, 171 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.279 and so he wonders if Gene feels that way too. He was using 172 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:24.759 his counter transference to get, you know, to make a like an interpretation 173 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:28.840 and get Gene to kind of open up. What did you think about that? 174 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:31.879 That's interesting because I had a different take on it. I didn't like 175 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:37.240 it, really, I, oh, you didn't like it. I didn't 176 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.759 like it because I felt he was angling to get rid of the guy. 177 00:13:39.879

--> 00:13:43.440 That's how it sounded to me. Like he was saying, Wow, you 178 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.279 know, look, let's face it, this isn't working. You know, 179 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:50.919 you're not opening up. This is not working. I feel frustrated. You 180 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:56.399 feel frustrated. You know. Now the patient didn't let it get there, 181 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.000 But I thought the next thing I expected out of his mouth was saying, 182 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:01.440 you know, maybe this just asn't working. That's how it sounded to me. 183 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.000 But what I didn't like about it is that to me, it sounded 184 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.399 too much like blaming the patient. You know, it's like we're not getting 185 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.879 anywhere and it's your fault because you're not opening up, And that I don't 186 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.480 think is helpful to people. What I would have said, and I wouldn't 187 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.919 have said all that at one time like you did, because I don't believe 188 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.720 you should talk that much at one time because the patient is too much to 189 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:28.120 respond to. But I could see myself saying to this guy something like, 190 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.559 you know, I noticed that every time we start to get to something that 191 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:37.200 feels that all emotional, you deflect if you notice that yourself, you know, 192 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.120 this is in the context of moving the process forward, not that you're 193 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.679 frustrating me or you make it difficulty, you know, because if you were 194 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.279 not getting anywhere, it's like, have you noticed that, because that's part 195 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.080 of the process. I have never had a patient who didn't defend against their 196 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:58.279 feelings ever, Ever, salthiest the sickett You know, everybody wants to get 197 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.000 better, but nobody wants to change, right, Well, I do think 198 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:05.159 that. Actually Jean didn't take it well, and you know, says something 199 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.240 like, well, maybe I'm not cut out for this, and then basically 200 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:13.759 kidnaps the therapist, so well, maybe they'll work better here, So you 201 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.559 you know, it's I think you're right about the whole thing. So when 202 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.679 he said, you know, maybe I'm that could out for this, this 203 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.519 is the kind of thing you would expect commentation when most patients would say something 204 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:26.200 like that. So you're telling me I'm let a good candidate for psychotherapy. 205 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:30.960 You're telling me I can't be helped. That's how post patients would react to 206 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.159 it. And you can sort of tell that he's agitated, even though you 207 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.960 can't necessarily understand why he's agitated like that that clearly hasn't been there. And 208 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.799 I guess this is probably my number one question as a non therapist, which 209 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:50.759 is probably an incredibly stupid question. But what is the difference? Can you 210 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:58.039 assess the difference between a person who has actual difficulties versus a person that's just 211 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.840 really annoyed? You know what I mean? Like, this is just like 212 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:07.240 an annoying person versus like a person who actually is is struggling with something like 213 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:15.600 that, they have a personality that is um aggressive or is is difficult versus 214 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.559 Okay, I can see they're actually they're actually dealing with something. How do 215 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.120 you how do you assess that? Well, tell me what you mean by 216 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:27.159 annoying person? I mean, what's just an annoying person? Like a person 217 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:34.360 who is just let's say, naturally defensive or naturally um uh, just not 218 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.399 terribly outgoing. They're not very they don't like to share their feelings. There 219 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:47.159 that their personality is such that they um, they are not it's not a 220 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:51.240 natural conversation. You feel like you have to drag information out of them U 221 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.240 Versus a person who you can tell is reticent because they are hesitant to share. 222 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.720 In this case, they're hesitant to share that in fact, they have 223 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:06.279 a compulsion to kill people. But I'm assuming that's not usually how it always 224 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:10.880 goes that, But that people that you feel like they're you're sort of looking 225 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.920 for the secret of that person, and you're trying to determine whether that person's 226 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:19.359 holding out because they're afflicted in some way or just they don't want to share 227 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.519 it with you. Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean. Well, 228 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:29.799 the person you're calling just annoying person is basically you're what you're describing as 229 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.559 a defensive structure. Okay, they're characterologically defensive, is what you're saying. 230 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.960 That There isn't there isn't such a clear distinction between those two as you think 231 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:45.440 there is. Okay, somebody who's just like you say, they're characterologically overaggressive, 232 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:51.039 or they're they ascend people or whatever. They're

defensive, but their defenses 233 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:55.200 are much more difficult to do with because they're characterologically defending. Okay. The 234 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:57.759 other kind of person also uses their defenses, but they use them in a 235 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:03.440 more circumscribed way. Okay, that's what you're talking about to protect themselves against 236 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:04.400 something then, and want of other people to know about it, or they're 237 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.559 afraid about it themselves. The other person is too, but it's just characterological. 238 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:14.200 It's what they do. What they're defending against is basically a weakness in 239 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.400 the sense of self. Okay, so the difference between the two isn't that 240 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.000 one is just annoying the differences. They're both defensive, they're both pathological, 241 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:29.279 but one is characterologically passed pathological and takes a lot longer to do with and 242 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.880 sometimes it is very difficult to do. The usually is very difficult to do. 243 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:37.160 That's actually really helpful. Thank you that that really illuminates that for me. 244 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.519 Yeah, I had another question about this show that I found really sort 245 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:49.119 of unusual, which is that in the practice of Alan Steverell's character, he 246 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:59.039 appears to be seeing patients in his home and that seems I mean, obviously 247 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.119 in this show it illustrates why that might be a bad idea, which is 248 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.000 that patients can come back and find you at home. But is that something 249 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.759 that happens that often? And is that actually a good idea? Like, 250 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.160 it doesn't seem like it's a good idea. That's a really really good question. 251 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:18.319 It's nothing I would ever do, but some people do do it. 252 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:23.400 It does happen. It's realistic, especially in New York. It is geographically, 253 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.519 it's a geographical question. Chicago, I don't know that. I know 254 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:33.359 a few people who have an office, a regular office downtown and then they 255 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.519 have a part of their home that's sectioned off with a private entrance. Okay, 256 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.440 and so yeah, it's their house, but the person never sees their 257 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.440 house. They know where they live, but the consulting room is separated off 258 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.200 it as a private entrance and exit, so they really aren't part of the 259 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:55.200 living space. I don't like it. It's not something I would ever be 260 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.400 comfortable with. Okay, I've never done that. I've always kept it too 261 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:06.119 completely be separate in New York, and this is something I've never seen in 262 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:11.599 Chicago. I have colleagues and good college smart people who use their living room 263 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.319 as their consoling room. I mean, people just come in and you know 264 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.079 it's because New York. If you know what New York rental prices are, 265 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.799 like, they save themselves a lot of money. I mean, it's ridiculous. 266 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.920 People pay thousands of dollars for these little closet spaces, you know, 267 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:33.480 to see patients. So this is what people do, but I could never 268 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.240 feel comfortable that way because I feel like it's too much of a boundary blurring 269 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:42.079 between my private life and my professional life. And I really believe in keeping 270 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:49.279 those two things separate. I think that the most professional way to help to 271 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.559 deal with patients is to have a separate space, separate place. They don't 272 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.359 know where I live. They can find out, maybe, but I'm not 273 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:00.799 going to tell them, you know, and to keep them things separate so 274 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.599 that it's very clear what we're about. We're about helping them. We're about 275 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:11.200 a professional relationship or professional contract. We're not about forming a personal relationship. 276 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:18.799 Although ironically, if you really works well, sometimes the relationship that develops with 277 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:25.079 compatient and analysts is about as close a relationship as you can have because it's 278 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.759 so intimate the material that you discuss and who you're telling it to. And 279 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:33.519 very frequently patients tell me things or any therapist, things that they never tell 280 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.440 anybody else, often not even their spouts, okay, and so in that 281 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.839 way, it's very intimate. But for that very reason, it's important that 282 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.160 it be kept separate from my private life. Okay, they can tell me 283 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.880 that because they know it's progly on a professional basis, okay, and they 284 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.440 know I'm not going to anything they tell me stays within our relationship. I 285 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.400 know no one else is going to find out. And people will ask. 286 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.240 I'll often say, now, what if I tell you this? If I 287 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.359 tell you that you know? And I've had some people who you know, 288

00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.839 are public figures, you know, and they're particularly concerned about their privacy, 289 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.839 you know, And it's important that they trust me to know that no one 290 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.119 will ever know that they see me. I mean, you know, an 291 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.559 occasion I get the phone calls, people will say, um, I just 292 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.799 want to talk to you about my friend. I think it's important important information. 293 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.519 First thing I say is anything you tell me, I will tell the 294 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.839 patient. Don't tell me anything you don't want me to tell them, okay, 295 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.039 And that usually shortens the conversation a great deal, you know. But 296 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:40.279 it's important that my patient know that anything I hear from anybody else, they 297 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.440 will hear, and I will only listen. I'm not going to tell them. 298 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.799 Have either of you ever googled a patient? Like? Do you ever 299 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.279 do that? In reverse? Where you're like, you get a new person 300 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.279 and you think, oh, I should learn more about them I've never done 301 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.440 that, and I never would to do that, And I'll tell you why. 302 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.960 I don't even like to get information. Like sometimes I get a referral 303 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.440 and someone says, well, let me tell you about the patient. I 304 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:06.279 said, just tell me who it is, tell me what they're looking for. 305 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:07.839 That's all I want to know, because I want to hear it from 306 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.119 the patient. I don't want to get it on Google. I don't want 307 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.960 to hear it from their relatives. I don't want to hear from another therapist 308 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.400 anything. I want everything as much as possible that I know about the patient 309 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.559 to come from the patient, and I want to be able to respond to 310 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.160 it as though it's coming from the patient. They start getting things from external 311 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.000 sources, what am I going to do with it? If I bring it 312 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.480 in, I'm bringing in something that patient didn't bring into me, right, 313 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:36.799 I'm introducing into their analysis or therapy, which something I don't ever right to 314 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:38.440 do, right. And if I don't bring it in, I'm sitting at 315 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.000 it. I'm holding the secret from the patient. I don't keep secrets from 316 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.880 my patients, right, So I don't want to hear stuff, you know, 317 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.599 And I'm never with Google anybody you know, I can imagine the circumstance 318 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.559 who I might look at. I was really concerned that somebody was a serial 319 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.400 killer or something like that. Maybe then you know where I think there's a 320 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.640 crime that could be committed for something, but fortunately that hasn't happened. It's 321 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:07.000 like I've done it. It's actually like an ethical it's an ethical violation, 322 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:15.119 you know to do that. So oh okay, yeah, um, I 323 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.160 also wanted to ask. Okay, So at the end of the episode, 324 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.799 we learn that, um, that Geane whose real name is sam Um, 325 00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:30.759 that he has a compulsion to kill people and he's he's interested in stopping and 326 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:40.839 obviously that's a major revelation. And um, when you're in a therapy session 327 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:48.880 where something massive like that is sort of dropped in the session, is that 328 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:55.200 a place where you're like, Okay, I need to I need to completely 329 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.119 rethink how I've been dealing with this person up to this point, or is 330 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.480 it like you is it usually is there sometimes when you're in a session and 331 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.519 suddenly, like a big piece of information will just be revealed and suddenly it's 332 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.759 like, Okay, I've got to completely start over because what I thought was 333 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:15.319 going on is not what's going on at all? Here. You have a 334 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.960 way of asking the best questions, you know. I really loved the righteous 335 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:25.559 one of the most interesting parts about the therapy and analysis. Yes there are 336 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:29.079 cases. I haven't had it too often, but I've had on occasion. 337 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:32.960 I've had times not as dramatic as somebody telling me they're a serial killer, 338 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.359 but revelations because they wanted to wait, you know, until they really trusted 339 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.680 me, although I didn't know this until they reveal something. Often it's that 340 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.920 they're gay. Okay. Some people will hide that, you know, for 341 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.279 a long time. Not as frequently now, but over the years I've definitely 342 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.720 had that, you know, and after a year they'll say, yeah, 343 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.000 actually, the real reason I came was because I was afraid I was gay. 344 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.799 They never said before. Okay, wow, and um, you know, 345 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:03.160 now I start thinking everything differently. I started thinking about, oh, 346 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.039

that's the reason they came, so the presumed reason was which not the reason? 347 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.599 So I have to rethink that, you know, that was just a 348 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:15.680 camouflage, right, and why are they so fearful of acknowledging that their case? 349 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:21.400 So that happens. I had one um a really interesting case which actually 350 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.839 wrote up in a paper, a professional paper that was published. Um, 351 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:30.240 it's a woman who was its waspy looking as you'll ever find, you know, 352 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.920 blonde, very skin you know, very nice, sweet young lady. 353 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:41.079 And she said that her parents were from Argentina, but she was born here 354 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:45.680 Okay, and every summer they would go to Argentina for summer vacation, and 355 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.519 that was a certain part of her life was involved in that. Now, 356 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.799 I've been Argentina a couple of times, I happened to love when society. 357 00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.240 In fact, my wife and I actually expect thought about retiring there when point. 358 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.079 So it's not going to happen. And so when she said Argentina, 359 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.160 I heard Buena side, so I just assumed that every summer she had been 360 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.720 to Buenoscaids. So somehow we have we had obsession in which I said something 361 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:17.759 about Buenocieds and she said, oh, I've never been to Buenacidees. And 362 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:23.240 it completely changed the whole case because where they had one was this remote rural 363 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:29.079 area, Okay. And the remote rural area was where her parents were from 364 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.920 and where she had spent her summers, and it was a completely different culture 365 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.119 from the one I assumed that she had been exposed to and Buenosiees and explained 366 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.720 a lot of things to me about her okay, and unexplained things that I 367 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.559 was wrong about. Okay. So I had to rethink a lot of things 368 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:51.960 because the culture of Buenciedes is so different from where she was. Was like 369 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.000 two different countries, okay, And so what you've been exposed to, the 370 00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.440 influences on her were totally different. And I felt totally embarrassed, you know, 371 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.680 that had made this assumption, okay, Um, and I had as 372 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.839 I sat there and she's telling you this, I'm rethinking the whole therapy and 373 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:14.119 her whole background and what influences were hunter and it quite frankly was embarrassing, 374 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:18.160 but um very revealing. So yeah, sometimes that that happens, and that's 375 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.079 exactly what you have to do. You have to rethink the whole kids somebody 376 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.400 told me they were a serial killer, I would rethink everything I heard from 377 00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:33.880 this person, everything, Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Um. I 378 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.599 work in theater, so uh when I write music for theater and for film, 379 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.839 and so when I go see a movie or I watch a play, 380 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:48.200 I sit around and I think about I just I automatically without even trying. 381 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.079 I judge, I judge the music in the movie, or I judge the 382 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:53.920 music in the play. Let chants the thing I do? Do you do? 383 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.440 Either of you do a thing? I know. I know you're watching 384 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.319 a show about a therapist, and we can we can talk about that in 385 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.920 a second, because I'm sure each of you have opinions about like, ah, 386 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.079 I would have done that differently, you know what I mean, because 387 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.680 you're watching another person do your job. But like, are you ever out 388 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.119 in public and you see people and you're like, oh, you know that 389 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.000 person needs a therapist, or like I bet their therapist isn't that good because 390 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.640 of the way they're behaving, Like are you are you ever judging people based 391 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.720 around how they would react in your therapy? In the interests of authenticity and 392 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.160 self revelation, I do do some of it. I have to admit, 393 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.599 and I don't feel I feel guilty that I do that because you don't know 394 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.599 the whole story. You feel guilty because you don't know the whole story. 395 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:42.799 You don't know what really happened in their therapy, And how who am I 396 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.000 to judged how good your therapist is, your how or what they're about, 397 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.240 you know, from just some little incident on the street. Right, you 398 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.079 don't really know, and I have to remind myself of that. I really 399 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.200 try not to do that. Okay, first of all, not to judge 400 00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:59.400 whether someone needs a therapist or not. Just for one thing. I'm seeing 401 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.960 patients all day long, Okay, ten or twelve patients a day. Enough 402 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.279 is enough? Right when I go out or I see a movie, I 403 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.200 don't want to be assessing people, you know, That's what I do for 404 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:11.640 a living, you know. I want

to be able to go to people 405 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.319 in a completely different way. So I don't do it. I try not 406 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:18.079 to do it for that reason, and for the reason that I think it's 407 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:22.559 very cheap to judge things. You can't judge from some of my patients. 408 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.079 What they might tell somebody else about me and what they've done is not going 409 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.039 to reflect what happens between me and them, right, And I could see 410 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:30.759 someone else thinking what the hell is this guy doing, you know, just 411 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:36.400 from what he's hurt, you know. So for that reason, I really 412 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:40.079 try not to do that. But it's impossible to stay away from that completely, 413 00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:42.160 at least for me. You know, there's always the sense of what 414 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:45.799 is going on with this guy, what's going on in his therapy? You 415 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.319 know, but he may have been much worse before he wasn't there. I 416 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:55.279 mean, what's funny about that question is I don't know if this probably happens 417 00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.680 to you, Frank. When people meet me and find out what I do, 418 00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:00.960 they go, oh, you're probably sack analyzing me right now. And 419 00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.000 I actually like hate that comment because I'm like, in that moment, I'm 420 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.000 not doing therapy. I'm like, you know, at working out or at 421 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:15.759 the you know, with out with friends or something like that. So I'm 422 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:22.599 trying not to psychoanalyze people when I'm not working, so I don't psychoan with 423 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.440 people. And I agree, I get that all the time, almost universal 424 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.440 when I tell people I'm an oh no, now I gotta watch myself or 425 00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.960 oh my god, yeah, you know, yeah, and how it works 426 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.599 anyway, right, Like that that makes it sound like you guys have X 427 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.039 ray vision or something, but you like that's what people think. They kind 428 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.279 of think of it that way, like, oh, yeah, I don't 429 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.599 watch myself because you're gonna see inside my mind somehow like a like a like 430 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.279 an X ray like some sort of vision. Right, It doesn't work that 431 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.319 way, but people don't know that, you know, they get immediately intimidated. 432 00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:00.359 And you know when people say, oh, you're probably psychoanalyzing me right 433 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.240 now, I say I am probably not, because I do that all day 434 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.839 long. And the last thing in the world I want to do is psychoanalize 435 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.240 somebody at a party, you know or anywhere. Yeah, you know, 436 00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:15.079 it's awesome. Yeah you don't want to necessarily say I could not care less 437 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:22.240 about you, but probably you really couldn't, but I probably do. I 438 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:27.400 did look at the ways in which you know, this therapist and the show 439 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.720 responded to things and thought about how I might respond in those situations, Like 440 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:37.920 there was one thing that that he said, um, although that might have 441 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.039 been in the second episode, but m I mean, I did think about, 442 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.599 like, well, what would I do because like he's he's chained up, 443 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:52.599 right, and and gen Sam comes in and Steve Carrell tries all these 444 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.440 different methods to get him to, you know, let him go, Like 445 00:32:55.480 --> 00:33:00.160 he says, unlock this right now, you know, so he tried us 446 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:01.799 to tell him, you know, in a very like you know, assertive 447 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:05.160 way, unlocked this right now. And then he says, come on, 448 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:07.480 this isn't going to work here. We have to do it at my office. 449 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.680 He tries all these different ways that don't work right, And so I 450 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.160 did think about, like like what would I do? Would I would I 451 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.839 panic? What I scream? What I cry? Would I you know? 452 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.839 What? What methods would I try? So? And not that I came 453 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:28.240 up with anything better. I mean I think I think this is you know, 454 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.519 and I probably would say something like there was that moment he goes, 455 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:36.119 I loved this line. Oh you're gonna give me the silent treatment? Now 456 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.759 that sounds that sounds pretty immature for a therapist. And Steve carrell answers, 457 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.839 well, I'm no longer your therapist. I'm now your prisoner. Like I 458 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.119 might have said something like that, you know, I might have gotten a 459 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:52.599 little passive aggressive also, So yeah, what do you think, Frank? 460 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:57.400 Do you think you would have responded similarly? Um? You know, it's 461 00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:00.400 how do we know how we really respond if we really got changed up by 462 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.200 a patient? You know, it's such an horrifying kind of experience. But 463 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:14.320 what I do think is that the notion that what trust patient doesn't notice, 464 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:19.480 but to chain somebody up

and say you have to cure me, okay, 465 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.679 is an impossibility. Okay, it's it's an oxymoron. It's a contradiction in 466 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:29.920 terms you cannot. I always say. I always say to my patients, 467 00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:31.480 you know, or I say to my students, you know, we have 468 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:37.119 a our technical piece of equipment. Is they door with a one way lock. 469 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.400 Okay, nobody can get in, but you can always get out, 470 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.480 okay, because the patient has to be free to come and go. So 471 00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:47.440 none of what's what I'm saying to them is that everything I do here is 472 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:52.519 based on the premise that you come here at your own free will. Okay. 473 00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:54.360 You want to be here, okay, for some reasons. Up to 474 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:59.119 me maybe to figure out what reason, But I'm basing everything on Matt okay, 475 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.639 and everything I do trying to figure that out now. I never thought 476 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.960 of it from the other point of view the therapist who can't get out, 477 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.559 right, But the same applies. I mean, the therapist has to be 478 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:16.480 free to operate in whatever way he feels as best for the patient. When 479 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:21.760 you're chained up, no matter who you are, you can't possibly be operated 480 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.199 the way you would if you were free. Okay. And furthermore, when 481 00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:29.519 it comes to the point of he's saying, well, you know, I'm 482 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.639 not going to be your therapist, and he says, well, then where 483 00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:36.159 does that leave us? You know, and then he decides he better be 484 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.880 the therapist, right, especially Gene. Yeah, he had no choice. 485 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:45.679 Jean says, you know, I'm going to do it again. So therefore 486 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:50.039 he would he would have to turn him in, right. So now he's 487 00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:53.719 stuck. What does he do? Right, But it's an impossibility because he's 488 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.800 now operating under the pressure that literally, right, you cure me or else 489 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:05.199 it's life or death. Okay, you can't operate as the therapist that way. 490 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.440 You've got to be free, to be able to think and feel whatever 491 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:12.280 you do, and to have that the ultimate pressure of life and death on 492 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:16.199 you doesn't work. I don't even believe in. You know, sometimes companies 493 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:22.119 will hire a therapist to you know, work with their clients, and I 494 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.840 think all they can do is do an assessment for them out. You can't 495 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:29.000 do real therapy that way because the therapist is an agent of the company and 496 00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:30.440 not on the side of the patients. They're on the side of the company. 497 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:36.599 Well, this is an even more extreme version of that situation, right, 498 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:40.000 And so I would. I know at one point I would have said 499 00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.280 to him, this is impossible. You can't work. I can't do your 500 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.360 therapist. Well, I'm chained up. You know. Therapy is based on 501 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.559 the premise that we are both here of our own free will, and yeah, 502 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.840 here we're not, you know. But you know what's kind of interesting 503 00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:58.519 though, is okay, Like, yes, absolutely, I want to make 504 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.559 it clear that you should never kidnap your therapist and chain them up in order 505 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:07.079 to force therapy, right, like, I want to make we haven't made 506 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.480 that disclaimer already. I want to take a moment now to make sure that 507 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:15.079 everyone understands that's what we're all a favor of here. But at the same 508 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:22.679 time, the way that Dom Hall Gleason plays Sam, he does seem to 509 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.840 have a logical point of view, which is like, I've got a problem. 510 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.159 It's really serious. And he even says the line which is I've got 511 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.519 bigger problems than most of your other patients. And so he is he is 512 00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:42.800 taking action, decisive, definitive action to really address his problems. Now, 513 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:47.000 it's definitely not the way to do it, but he unlike other places, 514 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:55.000 other television shows and films where serial killers are sort of seeing as these monsters 515 00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:04.239 who are somehow soulless or are somehow like you know, on autopilot. He 516 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.119 seems to have a solid case as to why he would do the things he 517 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.440 did, and um doesn't want to say, I don't want to say they 518 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.360 sound reasonable, but they're close. Well, he has a solid basis for 519 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.239 saying, we've got to do something different here. Okay, that's fine. 520 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.599 He doesn't have a solid basis for saying I have to chain you up because 521 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:30.559 it's actually in the real world, that's totally counterproductive. That's not going to 522 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.920 get him his goal of getting cured. It's quite the opposite. But he 523 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.559 could say, you know, I've got worse problems than your patients. What 524

00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:39.199 you're doing here isn't working. You know, we got to do something different. 525 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:42.760 He could say that, right, which would be fine because that was 526 00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.039 really good things going. And that's where I go back to the comment that 527 00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:49.599 the therapists made, which I think was that, in my view, a 528 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:52.800 blunder to say you know, um, well, you know you you're avoiding 529 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.800 everything. That's why we're not getting anywhere, you know. I think if 530 00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:00.000 the therapist had handled that differently in the real world, the patient wouldn't have 531 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.960 locked him up. The patient would have felt like, maybe you need to 532 00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.519 get somewhere. Okay, Wow, this guy is addressing me, okay, 533 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.719 not dismissing me. Okay. He wants to understand me. He doesn't want 534 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:14.960 to dismiss me because I can't do it. But I can't doing it is 535 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.400 all part of the process, okay, and we deal We'll deal with that. 536 00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.760 So if Alan hadn't confronted him, he might not have been locked up. 537 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:25.199 I don't think so. I don't think you would have. I think 538 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:30.119 I think the guy would respond it differently if the analyst had said, you 539 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:32.840 know, I can see that you're hiding something here, and I think that's 540 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:37.719 really important that you're avoiding stealings, and so there's got to be something here 541 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:39.679 that you're really troubling, you know. I wonder if you could give me 542 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:43.960 an indication of what that might be, or have you thought about that yourself? 543 00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:46.000 You know, have you thought about it yourself? Might be better, 544 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:50.679 you know, and engage the process of reflection of what that's going on. 545 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.039 And of course the patient knows exactly what because he's a serial killing, you 546 00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:57.559 know, And I think that that would have gone out in that way. 547 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.199 I'm not going to disagree with you, Frank, but I am going to 548 00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:08.599 say that I think it was inevitable that at some point he would have done 549 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:13.320 this. I mean not only because it's a television show, but because I 550 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:20.719 think this guy is a narcissist and it's all about him. And so Steve 551 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.639 Carrell or his therapist could have said anything that he would have turned around and 552 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:30.639 made it about him, because his solution in the end is, you know,

553 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.599 for him to say, well, I wasn't able to open up in 554 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:36.960 your office, Like that's bologny, you know, like you don't need to 555 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.960 be like you don't have your therapist locked in the basement to have him, 556 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:43.920 you know, open up to you. So I kind of think so I 557 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.360 agree that, you know, like Steve Carrell probably could have been a little 558 00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:52.559 more delicate, but I kind of think that it was inevitable that it might 559 00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:58.840 have happened this way anyway, because that's the way that's the patient's pathology. 560 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:05.079 Yeah, yeah, isn't it Isn't it possible that the reason why he's locked 561 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:12.360 the therapist up is in order to have control? Yes? And that also 562 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:17.840 like serial killers, I feel like also maybe kill people for that sense of 563 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:24.559 control as well. Right, So it's it's kind of logically follows. Well, 564 00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:30.400 you certainly that that would be it to achieve control. But you see, 565 00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.880 there are better and worse ways of handling the patients avoidance, right, 566 00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.599 And I think if it had been handled differently, who can say? I 567 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.079 mean, it's fiction, you know, the writer can write anything they want, 568 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:44.519 right, but a patient like that had seen in the real world. 569 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:49.639 I think if you engage them in showing your interested in understanding you know what 570 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.159 is so troubling to them that they're avoiding it that very frequently people will open 571 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:59.159 up to you and they'll need to Patients like that always need to be in 572 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:00.719 control. As had a lot of patients who need to be in control. 573 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.440 Luckily so find none of them locked me up. But you know, you 574 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:09.639 talk about that, you talk about them need to be in control, they'll 575 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:14.079 control the therapy. They'll say, this is what we're going to talk about, 576 00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:16.079 and this is how we're going to do it, you know, and 577 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:20.679 talk about that. You know, it seems like it's important that you call 578 00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.679 the shots here, you know, and we talked about it, you know, 579 00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:28.559 um and this guy as much as he as he has killed people, 580 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:32.039 he's also said he wants to do it again. There's this guy he's obsessed 581 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.719 with, but he goes to therapy instead, and that's an open that means 582 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:43.880 he's not totally acting out everything they feel. I love that you just said 583 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:49.079 so far no one has locked me up as if there's still is still a 584 00:42:49.119 --> 00:43:00.920 shot at that. UM. I have a question, Um, so what 585 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.719 did you think about this idea that? Um he that the patient wanted to 586 00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:15.199 pick a Jewish therapist, that thinking that Jewish accountant. It's like, I 587 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.679 know this is whole Jewish thing. Yeah, I guess you think that's just 588 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:22.840 simply it. I don't know. I thought it was fascinating, but it 589 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.960 never We didn't get any more material than that. He just said, I 590 00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.760 picked out three Jewish therapists, and I picked out the best one. I 591 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.599 was Jewish. It would me I would have think, why only Jewish doctors 592 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:40.119 Jewish? Yeah? Um, that was a fascinating, uh little vignette. 593 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.199 And I didn't know what to make of it other than he wants the best 594 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:46.760 anythings, Jews are the best. That made me wonder is the patient jewish? 595 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:53.719 You know? He didn't look. Yeah, yeah, Um, you 596 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:59.440 know many people feel like I feel like Jewish doctors are the best. I 597 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:01.719 always or the growing up the desk because I'm Jewish and every one of my 598 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:07.480 relatives were Jewish, and now said the Jewish doctors. Um, And you 599 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:13.039 know he wanted the best and his concept the Jews, Jews were the best, 600 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:16.480 are the best. WHI is a fascinating thing for someone to say. 601 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:20.119 I've never had a patience say to me, I was just looking for a 602 00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:24.320 Jewish therapist. Yeah, yeah, of course, most I've had people. 603 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.360 Yeah, no, I've had people say ask me about my you know, 604 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:34.159 in more recent years, my political views and and have that be part of 605 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:38.360 you know, why they would choose me or not. But yeah, So, 606 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.079 Frank, was there anything in particular else about the episode that you wanted 607 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:49.360 to be sure to um talk about? Um. That's a good question. 608 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:58.000 Um, the I guess the main thing was the um the dramatic situation. 609 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:04.159 He quits the therapist skin by saying, UM, you know you've got to 610 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:09.719 cure me before I let you go, and the therapist saying and saying, 611 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:13.079 well, you know, you got to let me go before I can hear 612 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:16.360 you, which is true okay, And then

the patient says, well, 613 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.199 but then you turn me in. You have to turn me in, and 614 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.079 that therapist says, only if you say you're going to do it again. 615 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:27.599 So immediately he says, I'm going to do it again, you know. 616 00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.800 So that traps the situation, that traps the therapist. So I thought it 617 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.639 was a blunder on the therapist part, but obviously a difficult one to see 618 00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.719 at the moment. Right, But if you could think of that, you 619 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:43.159 know what, the therapist should have said, everything's better to see in hindsight. 620 00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.840 You should have said, um, listen, I don't have to turn 621 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:51.400 you in, you know, Um, you know, there's nothing you know, 622 00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:54.920 and and and just leave it at that. Um. Yeah, But 623 00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.280 the gains of the patient and opening and therefore got trapped and to a situation 624 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:07.880 that's basically impossible, you know. It's he's got to try to cure somebody 625 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.000 in a situation where it's impossible to cure them. And serial killers are notoriously 626 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.719 hired to cure anyway, right, but especially that by the way, I 627 00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.679 like, can you curious the earlier killer? And like, how long does 628 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.360 that take? I feel like longer than ten episodes? Yeah, yeah, 629 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:27.199 right. I've I've never heard of a case in which a serial killer was 630 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:31.800 actually cured by therapy or anything else for that matter. You know, maybe 631 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:36.960 there are cases, but I've never heard of one, because you know, 632 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.039 what they're doing is they're they're enacting, you know, whatever it is that's 633 00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:45.599 bothering them. It gets enacted by killing somebody, right and so um. 634 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:52.239 And to take them into therapy, you'd have to get them into a situation 635 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.960 where they'd be willing to deal with whatever it's bothering them that leads them to 636 00:46:55.079 --> 00:47:00.440 do the shooting without doing the shooting. And maybe that's theoretically possible, but 637 00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:07.480 in practical terms, i'd seen a lot of you know, I haven't seen 638 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.199 myself stre of killers, but I've read about them, and I've seen portrayals 639 00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.519 and documentaries and so on, and none of them seem to me to be 640 00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:22.480 at all amenable, you know, anything like that, because they're so narcissistically 641 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.480 vulnerable that they have to kill, you know, that's the only way they 642 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.400 can resolve it. I remember hearing seeing this one case in a documentary for 643 00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:32.679 this guy was asked why he killed his bus drik and he said, well, 644 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:37.119 I got on the bus and the guy said you needed token, he 645 00:47:37.159 --> 00:47:39.599 needed something and I said, no, I don't have him or something, 646 00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:42.679 and he said, well, you have to get off the bus. He 647 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:45.840 said he didn't know. That's when he got executed. He didn't know who 648 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:46.960 he was dealing with, and he shot him. He killed him. You 649 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:53.519 know, now, somebody like that is not curable, okay, because anything 650 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:58.079 that said, oh, indicative that there's anything that he has to do or 651 00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.000 someone else tells them what to do. He's to kill me, right right, 652 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:07.519 That's just not a curable situation, you know, and serial killers of 653 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.400 that. You know. So if you were Alan, if you personally were 654 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.840 Alan and you were in the basement chained up to a bed and Sam said 655 00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:20.840 to you, I'm not letting you leave this basement until you cure me of 656 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.480 being a serial killer, your first thought is probably I'm never leaving this basement, 657 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.559 that's right. And I would probably say that to him. I would 658 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.000 say, that's an impossibility. I can't kill you what I'm locked up. 659 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:43.159 It can't happen, So you'll kill you. But you know, well, 660 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:49.800 and your comment earlier, Frank, Yeah, your comment earlier about everyone wants 661 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.519 to be better, but no one wants to change. Is really relevant here 662 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:57.039 because every time Steve Carrell is going to say to him, you have to 663 00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.719 do maybe try it this way. You know, he's gonna you know, 664 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.719 he wouldn't take his sunglasses off in the beginning. He's certainly not unlocking him. 665 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.760 He says, promise me, you're not going to do it. And 666 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.119 the best thing he can say as well, I'll try. You know. 667 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:15.360 Um, he's going to have a hard time taking any of the suggestions. 668 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:20.280 In fact, I found myself wondering if he just hadn't already killed someone. 669 00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:24.639 I don't know, but he's killed several people apparently. Oh, I mean 670 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:31.320 even since starting to see him that promise. Yeah, it would take an 671 00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:38.440 absolutely heroic effort,

okay, a piece of therapeutic history for somebody to gain 672 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.079 enough trust in somebody like that, and they have they have enough trust in 673 00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:47.280 you that you could actually help them think about what they're doing rather than kill 674 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:52.320 somebody and understand what's wrong about it and not do it again. That would 675 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.960 be heroic. I would never say it's impossible, but it would be a 676 00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.000 heroic effort. Would make history. Wow, all right, well, I 677 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.559 think that sets us up really well. For the rest of the series then, 678 00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:08.480 because yeah, we still have nine episodes ago at least, right right, 679 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.800 right right, could be interesting. Yeah, well, Frank, thank 680 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.039 you so much for coming on. That was really that was really a fun 681 00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:22.480 discussion and about a very dark topic. Um and it was fun to kind 682 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:28.039 of, you know, because you were my teacher, to just trade ideas 683 00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:32.239 about the way the way it could be done or should be done or might 684 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:37.400 have been done. Um. So, yeah, that was really great. 685 00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.079 It was This was a lot of fun. Thank you both so much. 686 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.039 I appreciate the invitation. I thank you for it. And it's wonderful to 687 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.440 see my former student doing so well. It's so gratifying to me to see 688 00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:55.320 her being so successful, you know, aren't you sweet? Thank you Lee. 689 00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:01.599 Yeah, that's what they're talking about. Celia Killers could be so gratified. 690 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:09.119 This is great. This is bringing us all together. Yea. Yeah, 691 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.079 well, thank you both very much. So thank judging so much. 692 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:21.760 Thank you. So that was doctor Frank Summers, training and supervising analyst at 693 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:27.840 the Chicago Institute for Psychoanalysis. Um Man, I learned a lot from him 694 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:31.719 about this. This was really exciting and interesting. Um and yeah, I 695 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:37.679 don't I'm also feel like I feel like I was here to witness some sort 696 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:42.920 of personal like circle for you personally that you're sort of like able to, 697 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.840 like the student becomes the master kind of. I don't know if that's exactly 698 00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:51.079 the right metaphor here, but you see where I'm going with this. Well, 699 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:52.519 I mean it could have been that, but he, you know, 700 00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:59.079 told me I was wrong in the first ten minutes. But that's okay, 701 00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:01.159 never mind, yeah, no, no, but no, it was great. 702 00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:07.440 It was it was um. It was very cool hearing his his perspective 703 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:12.000 on that. So we were talking about um one of the remarks that Alan 704 00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:17.440 makes to Um Sam about Um him opening up, and I said, well, 705 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.960 I thought that was really interesting. You know that he made that comment. 706 00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:27.119 We used his counter transference to say, I'm I'm feeling a little frustrating. 707 00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:30.199 Maybe you're a little frustrating Frank. Frank was like, I didn't like 708 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.320 that comment at all. I think that's the whole reason why he got kidnapped, 709 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:38.239 basically because he's too fragile and he went in too quick and blamed the 710 00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:43.119 patient. And I was like, oh, okay, But other than that, 711 00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:45.159 was that's the true mark of a teacher, though, right is the 712 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.000 person who's able to stand back and be like, ah, there you go. 713 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:53.280 That was no, don't do it. Don't do it that way, 714 00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:58.599 s Daisy, we gotta go back. Yeah, yeah, I mean I 715 00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:00.519 think there you go. That's a less and for all of you therapists out 716 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:06.199 there is just be aware that if you confront your patient, it's possible you'll 717 00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:10.280 be locked up in basement. I'm grateful to the both of you indulging my 718 00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:20.119 neophyte questions about therapy since I don't understand any of it, and so like, 719 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:24.639 I will try to ask less embarrassing questions as this show goes along if 720 00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:30.920 I can possibly figure it out. Frank loved your questions, lindsay yeah and 721 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.440 worry about it. No, no, don't worry about it at all. 722 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:38.239 And it really kind of gave him the opportunity to talk about, you know, 723 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:42.440 the things that he knows best, you know, like how do you 724 00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:45.880 decide how many sessions a week someone needs? How do you decide any analysis 725 00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:52.320 who doesn't need analysis? But also, um, you know, basically when 726 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.679 when you when you dive in and confront the patient when you don't. But 727 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:01.840 I really appreciated like his comment, it's about you know, people finding us 728 00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:07.280 thing, people finding out things about the therapist. You know that vignette in 729 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.960 the beginning of the episode where the patient goes, I'm really sorry about your 730 00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:16.119 loss

um and and the and the basic premise of the whole show, which 731 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:22.159 is that you really can't. It's it's nearly impossible to do therapy without that 732 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:28.559 trust. And not only does the patient have to trust you, but you 733 00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:31.599 know, you need to be able to trust the trust the patient. You 734 00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:37.639 know that the patients that people like often don't tell you everything, but you 735 00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:43.760 hope that they're you know, being forthright enough that you've got something to work 736 00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:47.400 with. And if you're being impinged in any way, it's it's hard to 737 00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.119 it's hard to be our most present, you know, helpful selves if we're 738 00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:57.519 if we're afraid or angry or you know, locked up in a basement. 739 00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.800 So yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting point, is 740 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.840 that, And it goes back again to my sort of my experience of therapy, 741 00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.280 which is that I come in and everything is about me, But really 742 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:15.480 it's it's equally as important that the therapists feel comfortable and safe in order for 743 00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:22.079 them to be able to make make real progress. Otherwise if they don't, 744 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:28.559 then that affects everything, right, because it's it's a relationship. Therapy is 745 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:34.000 a relationship, and so it might feel or appear like it's a one sided 746 00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:37.599 relationship. And patients say that all the time to me, like, well, 747 00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.239 I've told you everything about me. I don't know anything about you. 748 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:44.440 But people know things about me. And I don't mean like, well they 749 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:49.400 know that you know I like to wear blue. They get to know like 750 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.960 how I'm going to respond to them, They get to know my personality. 751 00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:59.320 They know they know me and they can't they know they can learn to trust 752 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:04.360 how that I'm going to be open to them and what they have to say. 753 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:08.079 So um, and that's a relationship. And as Frank said, it's 754 00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:13.880 one of the most intimate relationships you can have with a person. So yeah, 755 00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.559 that's really true. Yeah, And I mean, like when you are 756 00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:22.760 you ever surprised by how intimate things can get? Are there? Even after 757 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:24.119 all this time of being a therapist, are there times where you're like, 758 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:31.239 WHOA, I wasn't expecting this level of intimacy? No, oh okay, 759 00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:36.760 no, you're going yeah, no, I I I have not been surprised. 760 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:42.760 People tell me all kinds of things, and I'm I'm extremely appreciative, 761 00:56:43.719 --> 00:56:49.599 and I never you know, you know, I don't take it for granted. 762 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:52.960 It's really amazing because I think we don't really think about it or talk 763 00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.960 about it. But it's a huge, it's an it's it's a real sacrifice 764 00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.920 for you, I think, to be able to put yourself in that relationship 765 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:07.039 and really focus so deeply on the other person, and that's something that maybe 766 00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.039 we don't necessarily have in our lives. And so, like, I guess 767 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:13.719 once you do that, once you make the commitment to do that, then 768 00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.440 you're kind of ready for anything. Yeah. Well, and so I'll just 769 00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:21.639 like and I wonder if this will happen at all, but you know, 770 00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:24.639 just to turn the tables for a minute, like therapists and therapy. Frank 771 00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:30.079 made a comment about that. I once went to a support group for a 772 00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:36.320 medical condition that I have, and um, I hated every second of it. 773 00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:42.079 And I had I had you know, we all know, you know 774 00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:45.440 that I have a few control issues, but um I sat in that room 775 00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:52.639 and had not that I'd never considered this before, but had this sudden revelation 776 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.079 like oh, I asked my patience to do this all the time, to 777 00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:02.320 basically like reveal everything there is a themselves to me, and now I don't 778 00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:07.199 feel willing to do that, you know, in this group of people. 779 00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:13.480 So it's a it's a big ask, you know. And then patients give 780 00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:19.079 us this like little delicate flower and we have to really protect it, you 781 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:23.159 know, and hold it and be willing to not stomp on it. So 782 00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:28.480 it's time to wrap up this week's session, but we'll see you next week 783 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:34.760 on the next session of Psychoanalyzing the Patient. Bye bye.