Transcription complète de Why Mattering Really Matters: A Conversation with Zach Mercurio (Part One)

this story of these people he had just 69 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:32.490 picked up. who were just flying here into DC for 70 00:03:32.509 --> 00:03:34.500 the first time into the U S and he said, 71 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:38.280 I'm people's, uh, I'm the people's first experience with this country. 72 00:03:38.300 --> 00:03:39.919 I'm their friends. They don't talk to, I get to 73 00:03:40.379 --> 00:03:42.460 be their parents. They miss if I have a college 74 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:44.710 student in the cab and he was just lighting up 75 00:03:44.750 --> 00:03:47.590 talking about all these stories and he, and he left 76 00:03:47.669 --> 00:03:49.050 and he got his cabs like, see ya. 77 00:03:49.129 --> 00:03:49.650 And he left. 78 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:51.590 And then I remember I was thought like, Oh my gosh, 79 00:03:51.610 --> 00:03:54.509 I want to be a cab driver. But it wasn't 80 00:03:54.569 --> 00:03:57.319 really that, you know, it was that, uh, I realized 81 00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.379 that he found joy because he didn't talk about what 82 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.199 he did. He didn't talk about what he did. He 83 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:04.319 talked about who he did it for. And he talked 84 00:04:04.370 --> 00:04:06.210 about why he did it. And I sort of did 85 00:04:06.250 --> 00:04:09.090 a mini experiment at that time around DC. I talked 86 00:04:09.110 --> 00:04:13.250 to bookstore clerks and bus drivers and people who just 87 00:04:13.289 --> 00:04:17.209 exuded joy. And I kept seeing that. People who really 88 00:04:17.250 --> 00:04:20.110 had a sense of joy, they knew exactly how they mattered. 89 00:04:20.410 --> 00:04:23.290 And I ended up quitting my job based on that 90 00:04:23.329 --> 00:04:25.329 conversation with a cab driver because I wanted to know 91 00:04:25.430 --> 00:04:29.029 as much as possible at how you develop that perspective 92 00:04:29.050 --> 00:04:31.800 and how you create it in others. And that sent 93 00:04:31.810 --> 00:04:33.420 me on this journey that I'm on today, you know, 94 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:37.300 which is researching the experience of meaningfulness, of mattering and work, 95 00:04:37.779 --> 00:04:41.560 of what makes not only work, but life worth doing. 96 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:44.509 And that's what's led us here today. So that's just 97 00:04:44.550 --> 00:04:46.529 a small part of the origin story, but it's that 98 00:04:46.670 --> 00:04:49.629 pivotal moment, you know, that sort of changed everything. 99 00:04:50.500 --> 00:04:52.319 I wasn't sure where we were going with a seedy 100 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:55.250 park outside of Washington, but it's okay. It all worked out. 101 00:04:56.379 --> 00:04:59.569 It did. I mean, and that perspective has held, you know, 102 00:04:59.610 --> 00:05:02.209 in our research that people who tend to be the 103 00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:04.750 most motivated, tend to have the most energy, tend to 104 00:05:04.790 --> 00:05:08.709 experience the

greatest well-being, also tend to see exactly not 105 00:05:08.769 --> 00:05:11.689 only how they add value, but they feel valued by 106 00:05:11.730 --> 00:05:15.730 those around them. And they focus more on their contribution 107 00:05:15.750 --> 00:05:16.769 than they do their achievements. 108 00:05:18.209 --> 00:05:20.129 You know, it's interesting what we'll talk about different stories 109 00:05:20.170 --> 00:05:22.589 in the book. And you started off with the cab 110 00:05:22.610 --> 00:05:27.009 driver who impacted your journey. And there's a lot of 111 00:05:27.389 --> 00:05:30.810 conversations you have in the book around people that clean 112 00:05:30.829 --> 00:05:33.689 and custodians. In fact, as you opened the book, you 113 00:05:33.709 --> 00:05:36.800 introduced us to Jane, who's a custodian at a university 114 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:39.259 and the impact that a supervisor had on her self-worth. 115 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:40.439 Can you talk a little bit about that one? 116 00:05:40.980 --> 00:05:43.000 Yeah. And I think it's helpful to give a little 117 00:05:43.019 --> 00:05:46.079 backstory of why I was interested in that. Because one 118 00:05:46.139 --> 00:05:48.829 of the I had been doing my PhD and I 119 00:05:48.829 --> 00:05:50.750 was struggling to find a research interest. And I was 120 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:52.949 in these academic buildings and I had gone to a 121 00:05:53.529 --> 00:05:56.920 free personal professional development training that the university had put on. 122 00:05:56.939 --> 00:05:58.899 And I was coming back and I saw one of 123 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.540 the janitors I see all the time there. And she 124 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:03.060 asked me where I was. And I said, Oh, is 125 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.759 this free personal professional development training? Like, you know, and 126 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.519 she said, how did you hear about that? I said, well, 127 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:11.350 I got an email and she looked at me and 128 00:06:11.370 --> 00:06:14.209 like shoulders fell. And she said, you know, I've been 129 00:06:14.230 --> 00:06:16.730 here for 12 years. No one, no one's ever, showed 130 00:06:16.750 --> 00:06:22.310 me how to access my email. And this struck me 131 00:06:22.370 --> 00:06:26.629 that 80% of the labor force does not have an office. 132 00:06:26.629 --> 00:06:29.910 80% of our labor force is frontline wage earning workers. 133 00:06:30.089 --> 00:06:32.470 So when we talk about work, we got to think 134 00:06:32.490 --> 00:06:34.430 about what we're really talking about. And I realized that 135 00:06:34.449 --> 00:06:37.329 there are so many people that do the small things 136 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.600 that make everything else possible. And I don't mean small 137 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:43.259 like small, I mean the the details, the logistics, the cleaning, 138 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.079 the transportation, the waste removal that make everything else possible. 139 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:49.970 And I wanted to know in those types of positions, 140 00:06:50.550 --> 00:06:53.769 how people come to experience meaningfulness. And so we spent 141 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:56.189 a year and a half with a group of janitors, cleaners, 142 00:06:56.430 --> 00:06:59.470 trying to understand what made work meaningful. And yet Jane, 143 00:07:00.069 --> 00:07:02.199 Jane was at the university for over 30 years, one 144 00:07:02.220 --> 00:07:05.600 of the most sought after cleaners, building proctors would fight 145 00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:08.839 over her, her efficiency scores were through the roof. And 146 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:10.899 I asked her, and she would talk about her work 147 00:07:10.939 --> 00:07:13.170 in the interview. She was telling me all about all 148 00:07:13.189 --> 00:07:15.050 the projects she worked on, the people she worked with. 149 00:07:15.569 --> 00:07:18.009 And I said, you know, how did you develop this 150 00:07:18.089 --> 00:07:21.310 approach to this work? And she said to me, Zach, 151 00:07:21.370 --> 00:07:23.350 it was in my first couple months on the job, 152 00:07:23.389 --> 00:07:27.389 I was miserable. In fact, 15 jobs rejected me, except 153 00:07:27.410 --> 00:07:29.709 for this one. My friends kept saying, Jane, why didn't 154 00:07:29.730 --> 00:07:31.560 you do something different with your life? Why are you 155 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:34.639 just a janitor? She said that she would clock in, 156 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:36.759 clocked out. She quote, unquote, told me that she was 157 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:39.850 the worst employee ever. And like, how do you go 158 00:07:39.889 --> 00:07:41.670 from that to I've been here for 30 years? Well, 159 00:07:41.709 --> 00:07:45.649 she said it was this one supervisor who noticed that 160 00:07:45.689 --> 00:07:48.350 she was struggling, noticed that she wasn't in it, that 161 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:51.689 she didn't have the energy and that she wasn't emotionally invested, 162 00:07:51.829 --> 00:07:53.829 noticed that she was struggling, brought her into a break room, 163 00:07:54.089 --> 00:07:56.889 opened a dictionary in front of her to the word 164 00:07:57.009 --> 00:08:00.699 custodian and circled it. And now custodian in this dictionary 165 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:02.959 was defined as a person responsible for a building and 166 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.639 everyone in it. And he had her read that out loud. 167 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:08.040 And he said, no, Jane, read it again. And she 168 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:10.740 recounts that he then brought her out into this dormitory 169 00:08:10.779 --> 00:08:13.579 that she was cleaning and said, hey, look at these students. 170 00:08:14.060 --> 00:08:16.899 These are someone's precious child. Just like your kids, someone's 171 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:20.480 entrusting you with this space. And she started crying in 172 00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:22.139 this interview.

And she said, that was the first time 173 00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:26.120 in my life that someone made me feel worthy. And 174 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:29.399 she said it was three minutes where she saw, someone 175 00:08:29.939 --> 00:08:33.620 didn't just tell her that she mattered. Someone showed her 176 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:38.129 exactly how she mattered. And she saw that while the 177 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:41.129 meaning of the job for her was a paycheck, the 178 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:43.690 meaning in the job was she was keeping this place 179 00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:48.090 clean for these people. And she said that moment changed 180 00:08:48.129 --> 00:08:52.340 her belief systems about herself and her job, you know, 181 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:55.360 led to a 30-year career at the university. And that's 182 00:08:55.379 --> 00:08:58.080 what I always say is that, you know, when people 183 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:04.000 feel value, they add value. And knowing that she mattered, 184 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.860 was key in helping her develop the belief in the 185 00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:09.419 energy to act as if she mattered. 186 00:09:11.259 --> 00:09:13.200 There's another similar story I was going to talk about later, 187 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.009 but now is probably a good time to bring it up. 188 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.779 And there's another one where you talk about a lady 189 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.490 who's cleaning the bathroom at a college football game and 190 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:24.809 she's having to clean, unfortunately, vomit off the floor. And 191 00:09:24.850 --> 00:09:28.210 yet she does– I won't say joy baby is not 192 00:09:28.230 --> 00:09:31.389 the right word, but she said it makes her feel 193 00:09:31.549 --> 00:09:33.259 worthy because of the way people treat her. 194 00:09:33.769 --> 00:09:36.129 Absolutely, yes. So I asked her, what's the most meaningful 195 00:09:36.169 --> 00:09:38.450 part of your job? She had been at the university 196 00:09:38.470 --> 00:09:42.190 for 13 years. She picked this moment, college football stadium, 197 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:47.610 imagine this, packed. Someone, it's probably an intoxicated student, threw 198 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:51.529 up outside this bathroom and she had cleaned it up. 199 00:09:51.789 --> 00:09:53.389 And as she walked by, there was a line of 200 00:09:53.409 --> 00:09:56.929 people clapping for her and thanking her. And she said, 201 00:09:56.950 --> 00:09:58.929 it was the most meaningful part of my career because 202 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:01.620 the first time I saw how many people appreciated what 203 00:10:01.659 --> 00:10:05.759 I did. And she goes, that kept me going. And 204 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:07.909 I remember her, she said, I said to myself after that, 205 00:10:08.009 --> 00:10:12.190 I can keep doing this. And it's this motivational force 206 00:10:12.309 --> 00:10:15.090 of mattering, of seeing the evidence of our significance in 207 00:10:15.149 --> 00:10:18.399 our environment, getting that reflected back by other people. That 208 00:10:18.419 --> 00:10:22.990 we find time after time is immensely powerful in pulling 209 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.269 people forward in their lives and in their work. I'm 210 00:10:26.289 --> 00:10:28.230 glad you brought that one up because a lot of 211 00:10:28.250 --> 00:10:32.990 people don't because of the nature of the story. But 212 00:10:33.009 --> 00:10:36.570 I think you also mentioned that what's interesting is that 213 00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:42.379 what's purposeful isn't always pleasurable. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So 214 00:10:42.620 --> 00:10:44.639 we often look for like, how do we make sure 215 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:47.100 people experience pleasure in their jobs or people go to 216 00:10:47.139 --> 00:10:49.360 work and they try to find pleasure that it makes 217 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.710 them feel good. But you know, if you've ever been 218 00:10:51.730 --> 00:10:54.110 a parent or a caretaker, you know, the most purposeful 219 00:10:54.149 --> 00:10:59.330 things are not particularly pleasurable, right? Contribution is rarely convenient. 220 00:11:01.269 --> 00:11:04.409 And so, but the only way we can believe that 221 00:11:04.450 --> 00:11:06.450 we matter on our own, but the only way some 222 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:09.509 of these tasks become tasks that matter is when others 223 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.350 show us how we matter. And that's the key is 224 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:16.269 getting that reflected back. So it's a great example that 225 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:16.809 you pulled out. 226 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:19.629 Well, let's go ahead and get some semantics out of 227 00:11:19.669 --> 00:11:22.490 the way. So we're talking about mattering. What is your 228 00:11:22.529 --> 00:11:23.590 definition of mattering? 229 00:11:24.610 --> 00:11:26.789 Yeah, mattering is the belief that we're significant to the 230 00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:32.039 people around us. That comes from two primary experiences psychologists find. 231 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:37.080 Feeling valued and then knowing how we add value. So 232 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:38.379 mattering is feeling significant. 233 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:40.879 And that's what really, that's the key is both of 234 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:43.899 those things, right? It's feeling valued by people and then 235 00:11:43.940 --> 00:11:45.120 also adding value to the. 236 00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:45.740 People around us. 237 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:46.440 Yes. 238 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:49.100 And then the more we see how we're adding value, 239 00:11:49.179 --> 00:11:50.940 we see the evidence of our significance, the more we 240 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:54.000 actually feel valued. And then this is the upward spiral 241 00:11:54.019 --> 00:11:59.779 that creates things like increased motivation, engagement, well-being. I mean, 242 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:02.019 if I were to

summarize some of this research, it's 243 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:04.279 very hard for anything to matter to someone who doesn't 244 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:08.960 first believe that they matter. Yeah. You could probably summarize... 245 00:12:09.539 --> 00:12:13.419 every work motivation book out there. It's very hard for 246 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:15.340 anything to matter to someone who doesn't believe that they matter. 247 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.350 But when people feel that they matter, they act like 248 00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:20.870 they matter. And I think it's also important that mattering 249 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:25.029 is significant too. It's being significant to other people. And 250 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:30.730 it's different from other concepts like belonging or inclusion. Belonging 251 00:12:31.049 --> 00:12:34.330 is feeling part of and connected to a group. So 252 00:12:34.370 --> 00:12:38.340 belonging is part of. Inclusion is being invited in. It's 253 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:40.980 being able to take an equitable role in a group. 254 00:12:41.220 --> 00:12:43.600 But mattering is feeling that that group wouldn't be complete 255 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:47.659 without you. It's feeling important to. So I think that's 256 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.539 really important because belonging is feeling part of. That's a 257 00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:54.250 core human need. Inclusion is being invited in. But mattering 258 00:12:54.289 --> 00:12:58.470 is feeling important to the people around you. And it's 259 00:12:58.509 --> 00:13:00.429 a big difference because I can feel that I belong 260 00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:03.870 on a team. I can feel welcomed, accepted, part of 261 00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:06.779 the team. I can feel included, that I'm represented, my 262 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:09.200 voice is able to be shared. But I could have 263 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.799 no one notice that I'm a caretaker for a parent. 264 00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:14.740 I could have no one be able to name my 265 00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:18.059 unique gifts or strengths relative to other people. I could 266 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:20.580 have no one ever show me what's missed when I'm gone. 267 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:22.440 So we can feel that we belong. We can feel 268 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.220 that we're included and not feel that we matter. And 269 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.240 I think many people are experiencing that feeling today where 270 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.919 we feel like we're in a room full of people, 271 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:30.889 maybe even friends, but nobody really knows us. 272 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:33.740 Yeah, I'm glad you brought that one up because I 273 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:36.600 was going to ask you later about, to me, belonging 274 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.759 and significance were kind of two sides of the same coin. 275 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:41.870 But it's a really good distinction you made there. 276 00:13:42.379 --> 00:13:45.649 Yeah, I liken it like a three-legged stool. Belonging, inclusion, mattering. 277 00:13:46.110 --> 00:13:49.830 If one of those is missing, it's wobbly. You know, 278 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:52.710 like the culture isn't fully healthy. And I think that, 279 00:13:52.889 --> 00:13:56.309 and I mean team culture, family culture, community culture, organizational culture. 280 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.929 I think that's what's happened is that we've over-indexed on 281 00:13:59.970 --> 00:14:02.809 things like belonging, making sure people are part of a group, inclusion, 282 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:05.970 making sure people have a voice. But we've actually under-indexed 283 00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:10.250 on the everyday interactions that facilitate mattering. What's unique about 284 00:14:10.370 --> 00:14:14.350 mattering is that it's interactional. So you can have a 285 00:14:14.389 --> 00:14:18.070 program or an initiative that facilitates belonging, an onboarding program, 286 00:14:18.289 --> 00:14:20.950 socialization program, whatever it is. You can have a program 287 00:14:20.970 --> 00:14:24.730 that facilitates inclusion, making sure there's representation. But you can 288 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:28.809 only foster mattering through an interaction. And it's that interactional 289 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.960 level of leadership and culture that research has shown has 290 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.080 decayed pretty much over the last 25 years. 291 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:40.399 You say in the book that that starts early, right? 292 00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:43.720 Because you talk about the story with your then-newborn son 293 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.429 and how when you first held him, he reached out 294 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:48.929 and tried to grab your finger or grabbed your finger, 295 00:14:49.009 --> 00:14:51.929 which is, I guess, called the grass reflex. So it 296 00:14:51.970 --> 00:14:55.169 seems like this quest for significance starts pretty early in life. 297 00:14:57.509 --> 00:15:01.940 We wouldn't be alive if we did not matter enough 298 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:03.940 to someone else at some point in our life so 299 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.559 that person would keep us alive. I mean, think about that. 300 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:08.960 Oh, yeah. 301 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:16.529 A child's survival depends on mattering to somebody. So to matter, 302 00:15:16.809 --> 00:15:20.029 to procure that is a survival instinct. In fact, that 303 00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:22.409 grass reflex, yeah, it's the first thing we do. Like 304 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:25.700 everybody who's listening right now or watching this podcast, The 305 00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:27.779 first thing you did as a human being, researchers find, 306 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:29.679 is you reached out your arms in a hugging motion 307 00:15:30.220 --> 00:15:33.480 to find somebody that you would matter enough to so 308 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.840 that person

would keep you alive. So some people say 309 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:38.600 to me, Zach, this is like the soft stuff. This 310 00:15:38.659 --> 00:15:42.419 is about as soft as feeding someone who's hungry. Yeah. Right. 311 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:45.860 And so in that need to matter, it doesn't just 312 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.299 switch off because we grow up, because we go to 313 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.600 school or go to work, right? It's just like, oh, 314 00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:53.039 people don't need to sleep because they are adults now. 315 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:56.759 That's not how it works. Yeah. all survival instincts turn 316 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.419 into psychological needs. So the survival instinct to matter turns 317 00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:05.639 into the fundamental motivation to feel seen, heard, valued, and 318 00:16:05.659 --> 00:16:09.490 needed by those around us. Now, when that experience is met, 319 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:12.429 when we do feel those things, we experience that concept 320 00:16:12.490 --> 00:16:16.250 I just defined, which is called mattering. And it's also not, 321 00:16:16.990 --> 00:16:20.549 it's not a preference. It's not a generational preference. So 322 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:23.710 some people say to me, Zach, well, you know, the 323 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:27.519 younger generations, they want more mattering than others. I mean, no, 324 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:30.519 we all need to feel important. Like if I'm in 325 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:33.860 a room full of people, baby boomers, Gen Xers, and 326 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:35.620 I do this a lot, and I say, raise your 327 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:38.879 hand if you'd prefer to feel unimportant. There's no one. 328 00:16:39.379 --> 00:16:41.070 No one raises their hand and says, oh, yeah, I'm 329 00:16:41.110 --> 00:16:44.549 an engineer, baby boomer. You know, I'd prefer to feel unseen, unheard. 330 00:16:45.590 --> 00:16:49.110 It's only those Gen Zers that want things like purpose 331 00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:52.389 in life. What's wrong with them? Sounds silly. We're laughing 332 00:16:52.429 --> 00:16:56.730 because despite what divides us, this is what unites us. 333 00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:00.090 We all want to feel important to other people. 334 00:17:01.490 --> 00:17:02.929 As a boomer engineer, I don't want to come to 335 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.220 your stupid meetings, but I'm happy to, you know, I 336 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:06.579 want to feel important. Now, hold on. 337 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.019 Yeah, I know. But I say that because a lot 338 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.059 of people say to me, Zach, well, in this industry, like, 339 00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:16.390 we don't like this touchy-feely stuff. And this is not, 340 00:17:16.450 --> 00:17:18.789 there's no one out there that doesn't want to feel noticed. 341 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.059 that doesn't want to feel like their strengths and their 342 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:24.549 gifts and their skills are making some difference, that don't 343 00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:27.150 want to feel that someone else relies on them. And 344 00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:31.230 we all have this need. And I think that when 345 00:17:31.269 --> 00:17:34.769 we meet this need in interactions, that is one of 346 00:17:34.789 --> 00:17:36.730 the things that can solve a lot of our bigger 347 00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:38.910 problems as a society and organizations. 348 00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:40.470 Yeah. 349 00:17:40.589 --> 00:17:42.339 Oh, I mean, look, as an engineer, I still care 350 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.220 about people. I was talking to somebody at Warner Brothers 351 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.640 Pictures years ago about trying to hire services. And I 352 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:51.549 was telling him about the people side of managing projects. 353 00:17:51.589 --> 00:17:53.009 And he said, wait a minute, I thought you're an engineer. 354 00:17:53.049 --> 00:17:56.019 What is all this touchy feely people stuff? Well, people 355 00:17:56.059 --> 00:17:58.119 do projects. And if you don't treat people well and 356 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:00.380 don't care about them, you won't be successful. 357 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:03.319 And I bring that up in a, in a, in 358 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.500 a way to say that I think that actually some 359 00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:07.119 of the engineers I've worked with that have a great 360 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.440 systems thinking brain, they can actually see this when you 361 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:13.420 reveal it to them. That, I mean, every input that 362 00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:16.059 you put out there, especially as a leader or project manager, 363 00:18:16.099 --> 00:18:18.349 you're putting an input into the system. I mean, the 364 00:18:18.369 --> 00:18:22.119 most fundamental unit of the human system is the interaction. Yeah. 365 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:27.460 And so all those other things, profit, productivity, efficiency, performance, 366 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:31.160 those are all lagging indicators of human energy. Like there's 367 00:18:31.299 --> 00:18:35.460 no metric that is not a lagging indicator of how 368 00:18:35.529 --> 00:18:36.180 someone feels. 369 00:18:37.910 --> 00:18:38.089 Yeah. 370 00:18:38.410 --> 00:18:41.109 And if you've ever been a teacher or anything like that, 371 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:43.630 you know, like I do a lot of instruction and 372 00:18:43.829 --> 00:18:46.170 I was in India a few years ago and it 373 00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:49.410 was a pretty brutal trip we were doing. Two-day classes. 374 00:18:49.589 --> 00:18:51.630 We did five in a row. And we were doing 375 00:18:51.690 --> 00:18:54.269 pre-sessions with people who weren't going to attend the class. 376 00:18:54.430 --> 00:18:56.789 And we went until 10 o'clock at night every night 377 00:18:56.809 --> 00:18:59.369 because English is not as a first language. And I 378 00:19:00.190 -->

00:19:01.769 still feel a little bit insulted by this. But the 379 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:03.630 lady looked at me. It was about 9.30. She goes, 380 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.690 you're kind of older. How do you have this energy? 381 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.279 I get it from you. I mean, it's a fixed 382 00:19:10.339 --> 00:19:12.339 loop here where if you feed me the energy, I'll 383 00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:13.920 take it and consume it and feed it back to you. 384 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:16.809 Absolutely. I think one of the problems that we're seeing 385 00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:20.049 in workplaces and on teams today is that we have 386 00:19:20.130 --> 00:19:24.650 high performance expectations in an environment that doesn't regenerate the 387 00:19:24.710 --> 00:19:29.500 energy needed to perform. So we over-index on challenge and 388 00:19:29.619 --> 00:19:34.220 under-index on support and relationships and interactions. And you see 389 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.619 it all the time with how much rigor we approach 390 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.400 achieving and measuring a KPI. And then you compare that 391 00:19:40.420 --> 00:19:43.069 with how much rigor we approach making sure leaders have 392 00:19:43.089 --> 00:19:45.299 the skills to see, hear, value, and show people that 393 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.940 they're needed. And you'll see. 394 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:48.640 That's HR's problem. 395 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.559 Yeah, that's HR's problem or, you know, that's just a 396 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.279 culture initiative stuff. But that's the very stuff. I mean. 397 00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:55.859 It is. 398 00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:59.269 You know, we wouldn't have done much of anything today, 399 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:03.289 gotten up, had coffee, but on this podcast, if at 400 00:20:03.329 --> 00:20:05.630 some small level we didn't believe that our lives were 401 00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:09.890 worthy of expending this energy. Right, so. I mean, to 402 00:20:09.970 --> 00:20:14.009 matter really animates all human behavior. I mean, human behavior 403 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:17.019 is nearly impossible if you don't believe that your life 404 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.240 is worthy of your energy in some small way. 405 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:24.119 Yeah, if you don't believe that, then you're in a 406 00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:24.880 downward spiral. 407 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:27.079 Yeah, so that's why I always call it like it's 408 00:20:27.099 --> 00:20:30.200 like the meta need. It's the meta need that sort 409 00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:32.440 of feeds all of these other needs, especially at work. 410 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.420 So is that kind of like the mattering deficit you 411 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:37.200 talk about in the book? 412 00:20:38.140 --> 00:20:39.579 Yeah, I mean, a lot of the things that we're 413 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.200 seeing today, and this is one of the reasons why 414 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.869 we wrote this book, is because, you know, we were 415 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.890 seeing these symptoms that were missed, and I'll say, like, 416 00:20:47.269 --> 00:20:51.529 not branded well, in the sense of, like, you see disengagement, right? 417 00:20:51.650 --> 00:20:53.930 And you say, oh, it's a disengagement crisis. But you 418 00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:56.890 have to look really deep into the data. Engagement is 419 00:20:56.970 --> 00:21:00.200 really just about care, right? It's about caring about something, 420 00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:04.500 caring for something, your work, being emotionally invested. It's very 421 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.200 hard to expect people to care if they don't feel 422 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.170 cared for. And so when you look into the data 423 00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:13.730 on engagement, you'll see in January 2025, engagement was at 424 00:21:13.769 --> 00:21:16.589 its lowest rate in a decade. So this is despite 425 00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:22.319 all of the things, benefits culture, pet care benefits, perks culture, 426 00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:31.839 DEI programs, well-being programs, work from home, hybrid work models, 427 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:35.880 and people are more disengaged than ever. In spite of 428 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.660 wages even increasing about 40% in eight years, in the 429 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:42.099 context of inflation, it's not awful. People are more disengaged 430 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.640 than ever. So why is that? Well, we're doing all 431 00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:46.839 of the things, but there's a couple of data points 432 00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:50.509 that are important. One, just 39% of people in the 433 00:21:50.509 --> 00:21:52.710 2025 sample, and this was after I wrote the book 434 00:21:52.789 --> 00:21:55.750 or this got published, 39% of people could strongly agree 435 00:21:55.789 --> 00:21:57.369 that someone at work cared for them as a person. 436 00:21:58.950 --> 00:22:02.609 That's down 12% since 2020. It's one of the ones 437 00:22:02.630 --> 00:22:05.220 that has had the most precipitous drop. The next one 438 00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:07.400 is just 30% of people could strongly agree that someone 439 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.119 saw and invested in their unique potential. That one was 440 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.690 down 10 or 11 percentage points from 2020. So you 441 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:16.589 can't solve that through a program, an initiative, doing another 442 00:22:16.630 --> 00:22:21.029 Gallup assessment. You can only solve that through an interaction. 443 00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:25.059 So it's really not an engagement crisis. It's a mattering deficit. 444 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:29.059 Other things like the loneliness epidemic. One in five people 445 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:31.859 are chronically lonely. So one of the things we've gotten 446 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:34.490 wrong about loneliness and all the books we've written about 447 00:22:34.529

--> 00:22:38.569 loneliness is that you need to connect more. Join a 448 00:22:38.589 --> 00:22:42.789 community organization, find a hobby, right? For organizations, it was 449 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:46.380 let's have more meetings. The average adult now spends three 450 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:50.319 times more of their time in meetings than they did pre-COVID. Okay, 451 00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:52.700 so we saw a loneliness epidemic and we're like, let's 452 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.259 connect more or let's purchase a recognition platform or use Slack. 453 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.660 So the average adult right now says 30 to 40 454 00:22:59.660 --> 00:23:03.670 text-based messages to peers a day at work. There's 38 455 00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:06.849 million people right now on Slack. We're more connected than ever. 456 00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:12.829 We're lonelier than ever. Okay, so why? It's this paradox that... 457 00:23:13.250 --> 00:23:15.309 In fact, there's some research that shows that as your 458 00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:18.880 meeting time goes up, your loneliness goes up. And I 459 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.059 think this exhibits the point really well because it's not 460 00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:25.299 about the quantity of interactions. It's about the quality of interactions. 461 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:31.009 So Alexander Danvers, a brilliant researcher, finds that the opposite 462 00:23:31.029 --> 00:23:34.609 of loneliness... is not more social contact. The opposite of 463 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.470 loneliness is more perceived social value. So to put it 464 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:42.089 in the terms of this podcast right now, the opposite 465 00:23:42.109 --> 00:23:44.230 of loneliness isn't having more people around you, it's feeling 466 00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:47.230 that you matter to the people around you. So again, 467 00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:51.279 the quality of our interactions have decayed. The result is 468 00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:53.660 this loneliness epidemic, but that's just a symptom of a 469 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:57.339 mattering deficit. And I'm not even going to get into 470 00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:00.660 it right now, but we can layer on artificial intelligence. 471 00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:04.980 We probably should. We should probably mention that because it's important. 472 00:24:05.539 --> 00:24:07.359 But when I first read this, I thought this is 473 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:09.480 almost counterintuitive. How can I be in more meetings and 474 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:11.839 yet feel more lonely? But then I said, if I 475 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:14.220 walk into a mall where I know no one and 476 00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:16.700 no one clearly cares about me, I could be surrounded 477 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.359 by people, but it doesn't make me feel better. In fact, 478 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.460 I might feel more isolated because look how many people 479 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.900 around me who don't care about me or know me. 480 00:24:24.500 --> 00:24:24.680 Yeah. 481 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:28.460 And those quality interactions, what makes a quality interaction? Well, 482 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:33.619 researchers find it's one where we experience attention. time, uh, 483 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:38.779 where somebody, uh, remembers details about us, where we experience compassion. 484 00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:41.299 If we're struggling, someone offers to help. Those are the 485 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:43.920 things that actually reduce loneliness. Those are also happen to 486 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:47.509 be the things that help people feel that they matter. Yeah. 487 00:24:47.549 --> 00:24:51.190 You have a, give me great segues here. Cause I'm 488 00:24:51.710 --> 00:24:53.190 thinking about things I was going to ask later, but 489 00:24:53.210 --> 00:24:55.150 now they come to mind. You mentioned somebody who has 490 00:24:55.190 --> 00:24:58.369 like a moleskin note, a notebook. And the way they 491 00:24:58.410 --> 00:25:01.539 solved that was by taking notes about people and remind, well, 492 00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:03.559 I won't tell your story, but they use this to 493 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.900 remind themselves to ask questions later. So tie that in 494 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:07.160 for us. 495 00:25:07.859 --> 00:25:10.220 Yeah. I mean, you can't pay, you can't care for 496 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:13.619 someone that you don't pay attention to because you can't 497 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:15.980 care for something you don't understand. You can't care for 498 00:25:16.059 --> 00:25:19.359 a person you do not understand. You can't lead someone 499 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.519 you don't understand. Understanding takes time. It takes intention. And 500 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.650 then it takes attention. And, you know, Gloria Marks, the 501 00:25:25.690 --> 00:25:28.789 American psychologist, finds that our attention spans have dwindled. Not 502 00:25:28.829 --> 00:25:31.369 our capacity for attention, but our environments make it harder 503 00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:34.950 for us to pay attention. Ten years ago, the average 504 00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:36.730 amount of time that we were able to pay attention 505 00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:39.470 to one thing without getting distracted was over a minute. 506 00:25:39.609 --> 00:25:43.670 And now it's about 47 seconds. And it's very hard 507 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:45.339 to show someone that they matter when you're in a 508 00:25:45.380 --> 00:25:47.599 hurry and you can't pay attention to them. So one 509 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:50.440 of the things that we found is that to feel 510 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.160 that we matter, we have to feel noticed by others. 511 00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:56.279 So there are three major practices that we can get 512 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.640 into later. But the first is we have to feel noticed. 513 00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:01.220 The second is we have to feel

affirmed. We have 514 00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:03.240 to know how our strengths make a difference and then 515 00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:06.519 we have to feel needed. But noticing is different than 516 00:26:06.579 --> 00:26:09.400 knowing somebody. You know, you can know your best friend 517 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.500 but not notice that they're suffering or struggling. You can 518 00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:15.519 know your colleagues or your team but not notice that 519 00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:18.160 someone's feeling left out of discussions. So noticing is this 520 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.789 deliberate act of Paying attention to the details of people's 521 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:23.970 lives and work and then offering them an action to 522 00:26:24.009 --> 00:26:26.269 show them that you're paying attention. Now, I went to 523 00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:29.769 this big manufacturing facility. They scored really low on their 524 00:26:29.809 --> 00:26:31.789 employee engagement surveys. And they were asking me to come 525 00:26:31.849 --> 00:26:34.369 in and see what was going on. And I always 526 00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:36.990 go for the outliers. There was one team that scored 527 00:26:37.410 --> 00:26:39.170 much higher than the others. And I asked them, oh, 528 00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:41.809 I said, well, what do you do differently on this team? 529 00:26:42.369 --> 00:26:44.490 And they all said, oh, it's our leader. It's the supervisor. 530 00:26:44.769 --> 00:26:46.769 She just gets us. We do anything for her. And 531 00:26:46.789 --> 00:26:50.000 they were just effusively talking about the supervisor. So I 532 00:26:50.019 --> 00:26:51.660 went to the supervisor and I was like, what is 533 00:26:51.700 --> 00:26:53.920 going on? Like, what do you do? She goes, oh, 534 00:26:53.980 --> 00:26:57.799 it's really simple. I have 29 team members. I have 535 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:00.640 trouble keeping track of when they tell me equipment gets 536 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.240 broken and then they need it fixed or if they're 537 00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:05.319 going on vacation or if they're feeling sick or if 538 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.200 they're struggling with a coworker. So I realized that I 539 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.849 cannot keep track of everything. So I have to write 540 00:27:09.890 --> 00:27:12.230 it down. So on Friday, I write down each of 541 00:27:12.250 --> 00:27:14.630 their names and I write down one thing I wanted 542 00:27:14.670 --> 00:27:18.019 to remember about them from the week before. And then 543 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:20.039 on Monday morning with my coffee, I look at that 544 00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.859 list and then I just schedule a three minute check-in 545 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:25.460 with them on my calendar, on my phone. I'll say 546 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:29.230 things like, hey, Clint, I remembered last week that that 547 00:27:29.269 --> 00:27:31.210 piece of equipment was giving you problems. We said we'd 548 00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:33.829 get it fixed. Did we get that fixed? She said, 549 00:27:33.990 --> 00:27:36.490 when she does that, people's just non-verbals just relax. Like, 550 00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:39.130 oh my gosh, someone remembers me. And she said to me, 551 00:27:39.170 --> 00:27:41.869 she goes, Zach, there's magic in being remembered. And we've 552 00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:46.109 come to call this her noticing notebook. And my point is, 553 00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:49.099 is that You know, everything in the book, we learned 554 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:51.940 from a leader doing it, like observed a leader doing this. 555 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:53.759 It's really, I would never have come up with that. 556 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:57.339 But my question is, what is your noticing notebook? Like, 557 00:27:57.380 --> 00:28:00.140 what is your deliberate practice to not leave your attention 558 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:04.190 up to chance? And we ended up giving a notebook 559 00:28:04.210 --> 00:28:06.569 to everybody at the facility, half used it, half didn't. 560 00:28:07.009 --> 00:28:08.589 That wasn't the point. The point was to have something 561 00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:11.450 in their environment that triggered them to remember people and 562 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:11.789 check in. 563 00:28:13.069 --> 00:28:15.890 And you gave another example later in the book of 564 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:17.579 a lady who was at the airport in charge of 565 00:28:17.619 --> 00:28:20.119 all the cleaners. Although they didn't work for her, she 566 00:28:20.180 --> 00:28:23.420 kind of led that team. And you were, I guess, 567 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.220 accompanying her through the airport. And she remembered people's names. 568 00:28:26.299 --> 00:28:29.059 And so she didn't need the notebook necessarily. But the 569 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.990 point is the same, right? She noticed, recalled, and was 570 00:28:32.069 --> 00:28:33.410 able to engage with these folks. 571 00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:36.750 Yeah. I mean, that was as I was finishing the book. 572 00:28:37.329 --> 00:28:39.660 One of my clients is an airliner. One of the 573 00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:43.970 highest performing units in terms of turnaround time for that 574 00:28:44.029 --> 00:28:47.309 airline was near where I live in Denver. And they 575 00:28:48.109 --> 00:28:51.029 have this big crew. It's called the Global Cleanliness Crew. 576 00:28:51.049 --> 00:28:52.470 If you've ever been on an airplane, these are the 577 00:28:52.509 --> 00:28:55.720 people that come on and clean while you're getting off. Now, 578 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.819 to give you some insight into that, you want to 579 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:01.859 talk about a performance-based business? Turnaround time is everything, everything 580 00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:05.140 for an airline. These people, when an airline comes to 581 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:09.829 the gate, they have this control center. in the airport.

582 00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:13.329 And the cleaners, it's a countdown. So not only is 583 00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:15.190 there a countdown that they have, they have to get 584 00:29:15.230 --> 00:29:17.410 the crew out there clean. They also have someone that 585 00:29:17.450 --> 00:29:19.869 goes in and does an audit score. So they have 586 00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:24.369 automatic performance audit scores and then time. This team had 587 00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:28.470 the highest turnaround times, fastest turnaround times, best audit scores. 588 00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:30.609 And so I went and I got to observe them 589 00:29:30.809 --> 00:29:33.829 for a day. And I followed the supervisor around and 590 00:29:33.869 --> 00:29:35.839 I figured it out very quickly. I mean, as we 591 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:39.099 were going through TSA, She was asking them about this 592 00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.049 guy who was buying a new house. She was asking 593 00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:44.079 this TSA agent about that, the new house and how 594 00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:46.579 his kids were doing. Uh, I remember as we were 595 00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:51.099 going down into the, um, the below the airport where every, 596 00:29:51.180 --> 00:29:53.720 all these teams got together, looked at these metrics, she 597 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.500 saw this worker and she said, Hey, would you, would 598 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:58.039 you show me a picture? Show us a picture of 599 00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:00.950 your daughter. And this was a worker who was a 600 00:30:00.970 --> 00:30:05.710 contract worker from Ghana. He was working to send money home. 601 00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:09.640 And he showed her this picture and she goes, good, good, good. 602 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:14.339 I wanted to remember why I'm here today. The supervisor. 603 00:30:14.819 --> 00:30:16.720 She went into this break room and she went around 604 00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:18.359 and was hugging everybody and saying, what do you need 605 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:20.380 from me? And then, boom, we got our vests on. 606 00:30:21.130 --> 00:30:24.900 Gate docked at the, plane docked at the gate. Got 607 00:30:24.940 --> 00:30:27.279 our vests on. We went and cleaned the plane. There 608 00:30:27.299 --> 00:30:30.859 was all these performance issues. But people were like just 609 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.069 talking as if they were on the same page. Like 610 00:30:34.089 --> 00:30:38.410 there was something going on here. And then afterward, I 611 00:30:38.490 --> 00:30:40.109 asked her, I said, what do you do? She goes, Zach, 612 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:44.869 relationships are my job. Everything else follows. Everything else. Because 613 00:30:45.589 --> 00:30:49.710 if I deeply know somebody, I deeply notice them, and 614 00:30:49.730 --> 00:30:53.349 then I have to have a difficult conversation, we already 615 00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:57.690 have the relationship. they already know they matter to me 616 00:30:58.190 --> 00:31:00.529 and what they do or don't do at work cannot 617 00:31:01.089 --> 00:31:03.930 threaten whether they matter to me, she told me. And 618 00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:05.750 I said, how did you learn that? She goes, oh, 619 00:31:05.769 --> 00:31:09.309 my supervisor would do anything for me. My supervisor flew 620 00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:11.450 in from Salt Lake City just to have a one-on-one 621 00:31:11.470 --> 00:31:16.650 meeting in person with me. Mattering begets mattering, right? The 622 00:31:16.690 --> 00:31:18.500 more we feel that we matter, the more we show 623 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:20.259 other people that we matter. And I love that she 624 00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:22.420 said relationships were my job. And so I had to 625 00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:25.740 report back to the airline, you know, what was going 626 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.650 on there. And I said, this person sees, hears, values people. 627 00:31:30.690 --> 00:31:32.609 I mean, in everyday interactions, you need to make that 628 00:31:32.630 --> 00:31:35.369 a required skill for that job. Now here's the kicker. 629 00:31:37.009 --> 00:31:38.470 They weren't her direct reports. 630 00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:39.650 Yeah. 631 00:31:40.470 --> 00:31:43.599 It was a contract crew. And I just learned this 632 00:31:43.660 --> 00:31:46.140 as I was leaving. This is a contractor that had 633 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.640 their own supervisor that never showed up. So she was 634 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:52.240 not their supervisor. She made the choice to lead them. 635 00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:53.940 That's amazing. 636 00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:56.609 I mean, that's, we could end there, but. 637 00:31:57.009 --> 00:31:59.009 Like she made the choice to lead, right? And I 638 00:31:59.049 --> 00:32:01.789 think that that's really important. And the choice to lead 639 00:32:02.349 --> 00:32:04.509 starts with the choice for how you show up in 640 00:32:04.529 --> 00:32:08.150 your next interaction. Yeah. Yeah. 641 00:32:08.789 --> 00:32:10.720 I mean, that's the exact opposite of some of the 642 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:12.539 quotes or some of the stats in the book. You know, 643 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.299 as an engineer, I love numbers and stats. And here 644 00:32:15.339 --> 00:32:17.859 are a few that I wrote down. 27% of workers 645 00:32:17.900 --> 00:32:20.779 have felt flat out ignored and over half feel undervalued. 646 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:21.589 Yep. 647 00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:24.329 One in five say they're in a toxic culture. 648 00:32:24.910 --> 00:32:25.069 Yeah. 649 00:32:25.369 --> 00:32:28.730 Consequently, 60% are emotionally detached at work and 20% say 650 00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:29.329 they're miserable. 651 00:32:29.349 --> 00:32:29.869 Yeah. 652 00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:33.009 And yet you could, you contrast that with the two 653 00:32:33.029 --> 00:32:35.230 stories we just told about the difference a person can 654 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:39.880

make when they make somebody feel noticed and cared about. Wow. 655 00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:41.740 They're clearly not in these numbers. 656 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:45.099 And listen, and this is, think about this. You have 657 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.160 many people who are literally, and this is a large, 658 00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:52.150 like a population of people who are working here abroad. 659 00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:57.660 You have high risk, low socioeconomic status, difficult job. I mean, 660 00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.279 if you go on an airplane, nobody pays attention. They're 661 00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:03.500 rendered invisible. They just walk right by the people that 662 00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:09.420 come on the plane. And if you can create engagement, commitment, 663 00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:14.529 motivation in an enterprise like that through relationships, you can 664 00:33:14.549 --> 00:33:15.170 do it anywhere. 665 00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:20.630 Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, you talk, so those two stories 666 00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:23.769 are great representations of You say that you had 1,000 667 00:33:23.769 --> 00:33:26.289 employees in 22 industries that you looked at, and you 668 00:33:26.329 --> 00:33:30.529 found that a leader's behavior accounted for almost 50% of 669 00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:33.589 how they felt about mattering and their meaningfulness at work. 670 00:33:34.329 --> 00:33:37.759 So you just gave two stories that absolutely stamp that. 671 00:33:38.380 --> 00:33:43.359 Yeah, and what that means is that in the data, 672 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.650 leaders doing these particular behaviors that we're talking about here 673 00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:52.480 today accounted for half of of the probability of whether 674 00:33:52.579 --> 00:33:56.220 someone would experience their work and themselves as meaningful and 675 00:33:56.259 --> 00:33:59.140 that they matter. So I'm talking the other half is 676 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.319 all those other things, right? Life, circumstances, money, all that. Half. 677 00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:09.199 If I were to tell an organization that you can 678 00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:12.980 increase something by a 50% probability of something happening, this 679 00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:16.079 outcome happening, let's say like innovation or whatever KPI is, 680 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.219 they would be like, oh my gosh. And I'm telling 681 00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:25.110 you that you can craft meaningfulness mattering this leading indicator 682 00:34:25.130 --> 00:34:27.789 of energy into your culture through these small behaviors. And 683 00:34:27.809 --> 00:34:31.269 the behaviors that we measured were small things. My leader 684 00:34:31.289 --> 00:34:33.769 checks in on my personal life, cares about me. My 685 00:34:34.070 --> 00:34:38.320 leader names my unique strengths relative to other people. My 686 00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:40.960 leader regularly shows me and tells me stories of how 687 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.739 my work made a downstream impact. My leader regularly tells 688 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.980 me and shows me how my work is needed for 689 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:51.809 a bigger whole, right? These are, These are not, you 690 00:34:51.829 --> 00:34:53.550 don't have to buy anything. You don't have to buy 691 00:34:53.590 --> 00:34:58.599 a program. There's no platform to do this. I mean, literally, 692 00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:04.360 it's just about re-emphasizing these skills to do it, making 693 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:11.300 sure people develop them, making sure that we're also approaching 694 00:35:11.780 --> 00:35:14.550 our interactions with intention, and that that's a cultural norm. 695 00:35:16.429 --> 00:35:18.429 Yeah, for people who think that pay is everything, I 696 00:35:18.489 --> 00:35:20.730 have a friend who talks all the time about while 697 00:35:20.769 --> 00:35:22.809 he'd love to make more money for him, pay isn't 698 00:35:22.849 --> 00:35:26.909 his motivation, although he says that paying me poorly is 699 00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:30.690 a disincentive. But there are other aspects of his job 700 00:35:30.710 --> 00:35:33.230 that make it more meaningful to him, and you definitely 701 00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:35.070 found that to be true, where if you have a 702 00:35:35.090 --> 00:35:38.710 culture where people are disrespected, excluded, and valued, they were 703 00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:41.710 10 times more predictive of them leaving than paying their benefits. 704 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:45.980 Right. Yep. And because pay is important, You know, we 705 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:49.510 should be providing people decent work and livable wages. I mean, 706 00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:53.190 that is not, you know, that's not a substitute, right? 707 00:35:53.469 --> 00:35:55.769 Mattering is not a substitute for that. So that's baseline. 708 00:35:55.829 --> 00:36:00.849 But money is just a symbol of value. Like, have 709 00:36:00.869 --> 00:36:06.590 you ever been appreciated by a $ 10 bill, right? Or 710 00:36:06.630 --> 00:36:09.050 a direct deposit? No, like you can't because it's an 711 00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:12.869 inanimate object. An inanimate object cannot value a person. Only 712 00:36:12.929 --> 00:36:15.940 people can value people. An inanimate object like money is 713 00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:18.980 a symbol of value. It's not the experience of feeling valued. 714 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.280 Symbols of value are important. It's like the awards, the recognition, 715 00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:26.619 a promotion. Those are all symbols of value. But there 716 00:36:26.659 --> 00:36:28.889 are no symbols of value that can make up for 717 00:36:28.909 --> 00:36:32.530 the daily experience of feeling unvalued. So a lot of 718 00:36:32.590 --> 00:36:36.610 organizations overemphasize these symbols of value. And then I go 719 00:36:36.650 --> 00:36:39.210 back into my workplace and I'm demeaned and

overlooked by 720 00:36:39.269 --> 00:36:43.730 my supervisor every day. That's your culture. You know, money... 721 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:48.219 in a work context, is compensation. The root word of compensate, 722 00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:51.500 you know what compensate means? It means to make up for. 723 00:36:52.539 --> 00:36:54.679 So all you're doing when you pay somebody is you're 724 00:36:54.750 --> 00:36:59.969 making up for their lost time. So to think that 725 00:37:00.070 --> 00:37:03.949 compensation can value people or motivate people, and this has 726 00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:06.849 been shown in the research, is very short-sighted. I mean, 727 00:37:06.889 --> 00:37:09.489 it's merely making up for people's time and it's merely 728 00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:12.030 a symbol of value. Now, when that exists in the 729 00:37:12.050 --> 00:37:15.090 context of cultures where people feel valued every day, that's 730 00:37:15.110 --> 00:37:17.300 where the magic happens. Yeah. Yeah. 731 00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.460 I remember early in my career, it wasn't about the 732 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:21.920 number that I was paid. It was just wanting to 733 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:23.699 be in a certain grouping of people that, Hey, I 734 00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:25.019 want to be, I'm in the, you know, make sure 735 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.619 I'm in this group that I belong in that group. 736 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:28.860 I'm in that range. 737 00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:30.739 I just don't want to be the lowest paid person 738 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:32.880 in the company or whatever. And whatever's in the, whatever 739 00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:35.119 the number is, was irrelevant as part is just as 740 00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:36.920 long as I was in that group. Yeah. 741 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:39.940 And you know, like paying people well, promoting people well, 742 00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:44.090 That's what Frederick Herzberg, who is a psychologist, calls hygiene. 743 00:37:45.070 --> 00:37:48.289 It's just the basic cleanliness factors of an organization. And 744 00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:51.510 I love that word, hygiene, because it's like just brushing 745 00:37:51.530 --> 00:37:54.949 my teeth doesn't make me healthy. But it's important. I 746 00:37:54.989 --> 00:37:57.869 have to do it. So organizations, like he talks about 747 00:37:57.969 --> 00:38:02.400 pay and promotions as just the basic hygiene. That's like basic. 748 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.619 But all that does is create a not dissatisfied employee. Yeah. Yeah. 749 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:11.739 And the research is very clear on this, like pay, awards, 750 00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:20.239 promotions will create a not dissatisfied employee. Mattering, meaning, being 751 00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:25.170 able to take on difficult work with support, positive interpersonal relationships, 752 00:38:25.210 --> 00:38:27.690 those are the factors he finds creates a satisfied and 753 00:38:27.750 --> 00:38:30.369 a motivated employee. So you got to ask yourself, like, 754 00:38:30.469 --> 00:38:34.650 are my organizational policies and the way we approach things, 755 00:38:34.670 --> 00:38:38.679 are we creating not dissatisfied employees? Or are we creating 756 00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:40.280 satisfied and motivated employees? 757 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:45.079 Well, that concludes part one of my conversation with Zach Mercurio, researcher, 758 00:38:45.219 --> 00:38:48.280 leadership development facilitator, and author of The Power of Mattering 759 00:38:48.389 --> 00:38:51.630 and The Invisible Leader. Coming up in part two, Zach 760 00:38:51.670 --> 00:38:54.590 explains how we've evolved from the agricultural age through the 761 00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:57.309 age of information and technology and while we're now entering 762 00:38:57.349 --> 00:38:58.190 the relational age. 763 00:38:58.849 --> 00:39:02.769 You remember during the e-commerce craze when Amazon got popular, 764 00:39:03.289 --> 00:39:07.090 people started ordering stuff to their doors and What also 765 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:11.869 got popular during that time was what? Farmer's markets, craft beer, 766 00:39:12.329 --> 00:39:16.510 craft food. Why? Because humans crave something real. I think 767 00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:20.250 we're seeing the same thing happen with AI. As more 768 00:39:20.269 --> 00:39:22.769 people realize that AI cannot care for them, it cannot 769 00:39:22.789 --> 00:39:25.989 build trust, AI cannot, can do your tasks. It can't 770 00:39:26.010 --> 00:39:30.340 take moral responsibility for them. The differentiator is people who 771 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:35.440 know how to build trusting and caring relationships. And so, yeah, 772 00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:38.820 I believe that we are entering into the relational age. 773 00:39:40.090 --> 00:39:45.230 I think that we've had the agricultural age. I think 774 00:39:45.250 --> 00:39:49.539 we've had the age of knowledge. the technology age, and 775 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:51.670 now we're into the relational age. 776 00:39:53.090 --> 00:39:56.309 Thanks for listening to The Conversation. To find out more 777 00:39:56.329 --> 00:40:01.590 about Clint, go to clintonmpadget.com and pick up Clint's book, 778 00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:07.239 How Teams Triumph, Managing by Commitment at Amazon. The Conversation 779 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:11.599 with Clinton M. Padgett is a production of Forbes Books.