Transcription complète de Executive Functions for Every K–3 Classroom with Mitch Weathers and Dr. Sarah Oberle

2024. It's been really fun. It's been really well received and that's been fun and [02:59 - 03:05] exciting to see where that book has traveled, but consistently and probably kind of starting with [03:05 - 03:11] Sarah before I even wrote the book when we met and she started asking me about organized binder and [03:11 - 03:17] the first thing was like, well, what about us? Sarah spent most of her career in first grade [03:17 - 03:23] and what about the primary years and that? That was the consistent feedback from book studies. [03:24 - 03:29] I mean, just everybody asking and people joining, what was interesting is if we would have a [03:30 - 03:36] webinar class or a book study and the topic was this book on executive functioning, it was [03:36 - 03:42] always the primary people to sign up first, but I specifically put those grade bands on book one [03:42 - 03:48] just because I felt like on my own that's where I could really lean into my expertise both from my [03:49 - 03:53] middle school high school teaching career and then my time working with schools and districts [03:53 - 03:58] with organized binder up or elementary mid, you know, like third and up. So, [03:59 - 04:05] Corwin started asking pretty soon after the first one came out like, hey, are you considering [04:05 - 04:10] a second book? Because this one's doing really well and I was like, never I never want to write [04:10 - 04:15] another book that was a horribly painful process that took a really long time and [04:16 - 04:21] but here we are. I had an epiphany one day after I had met Sarah, there's a whole back story there [04:21 - 04:26] and we've done some work together, we just stayed connected and the light bulb kind of just went off [04:26 - 04:31] because I was able to sit in on one of a talk that Sarah was giving at a research event [04:31 - 04:39] and I just had never heard a clearer explanation particularly for all grade bands actually for all [04:39 - 04:44] humans, but specifically to like that primary years of working memory and cognitive load and I [04:44 - 04:49] just thought we got to we have to bring this into the world, it doesn't exist yet, and educators [04:49 - 04:57] and parents are hungry for it. So, that was the story. So Sarah, the question was what about us? [04:57 - 05:03] Not only did you want this book, you were willing to step into that painful process of [05:03 - 05:08] authoring to make this book come to life, what were some of the elements if we're defining [05:09 - 05:16] executive functions in young children, what were some of the things that you wanted to make sure [05:16 - 05:22] were covered in those K to three years that are unique to that age right that are so critical [05:22 - 05:29] for educators in those early elementary years to have a specific resource that is really geared toward [05:29 - 05:36] those students. This is so relevant for us in the primary years because our students are new [05:36 - 05:42] at being

students, so you know they are still trying to figure out what it means to navigate [05:42 - 05:49] being at school, and on top of that we're with our students most of the day, we're generalists, [05:49 - 05:54] so you know, whereas the upper grades tend to be a little more focused on content, [05:55 - 06:01] we run the gamut of teaching them how to read, how to write, how to add and subtract, but also [06:01 - 06:06] managing the infrastructure behind that, the learning behaviors that are needed [06:07 - 06:12] to begin that academic career, and in the classroom 18 years I'm still in the classroom, [06:12 - 06:18] and what my colleagues and I have found over and over is that it's getting harder and harder [06:18 - 06:25] to focus on the content because we're battling an attention, disorganization, forgetfulness, [06:25 - 06:32] you know all of these things that if they don't come together, we really we learning does not [06:32 - 06:39] even happen because we're not even getting into our students' minds, and so you know our context is [06:39 - 06:46] so unique that it is very hard for us to read something that's meant for K12 and relate to that [06:46 - 06:53] or see our students in those scenarios, and so I felt like, you know, number one we need this [06:53 - 07:02] topic, but number two we need it for us because like I said, our situations are nuanced, our students [07:02 - 07:08] needs are very specific, so I felt like it was important to make sure that we were speaking to [07:08 - 07:16] just the primary audience. Are you still in the first grade now? I am. What are you, what are your [07:16 - 07:24] observations? I mean it's so it's now, 2026, right? Recording this, publishing. I'm going to [07:26 - 07:33] go out on a limb and say over the past three, four years, five years, you've seen [07:33 - 07:41] a wide array of I guess student, the student-ness, right? Student readiness, students, as you said, [07:41 - 07:46] they're learning to be students, learning to go to school, a lot of students had that very much [07:46 - 07:51] disrupted, you know, the kids that have come through first grade elementary school over the past [07:51 - 07:58] several years, those who were of the pre-K kindergarten first grade age during the pandemic, [07:58 - 08:03] may have had disruptions, I know, and then as I've gone to second, third grade, fourth grade, [08:05 - 08:12] the executive functioning and just how to be a student, challenges is that a lot of educators [08:12 - 08:23] were dealing with in a new way for the first time of not knowing how to explain things that they [08:23 - 08:28] typically wouldn't need to explain by the time students made it a few years into their school [08:28 - 08:36] in career, right? And figuring out how do we get to a state of being able to focus on learning [08:36 - 08:47] at all with a lot of dysregulation and lack of awareness about even the fact that I am dysregulated, [08:47 - 08:55] maybe, to an

extreme. I'm just curious where it feels like things are now, what are you [08:56 - 09:02] observing, you know, the trend lines with students now versus the past several years, the [09:02 - 09:08] outlook moving forward, things that are really important to touch on for those elementary educators, [09:08 - 09:15] and then hopefully, maybe, hopefully, signs of, you know, hope and promise as we move forward, [09:15 - 09:20] as we implement some of these strategies and just kind of are really aware of addressing [09:21 - 09:23] the things that are really important for students right now. [09:24 - 09:30] In regards to COVID, I mean, fortunately, our students right now were [09:31 - 09:36] minimally affected if at all by COVID because you got to think some of our kindergartners are [09:36 - 09:42] five and six, and so they were just being born at that time. Certainly, as it was, as we were [09:42 - 09:49] living through it, you know, I had first graders come to me that spent a good chunk of kindergarten [09:49 - 09:55] on Zoom. And can you imagine, you know, a five-year-old trying to navigate Zoom? So, [09:55 - 10:00] we could have another podcast about all the sort of trickle-down effects of that and what that [10:00 - 10:05] looked like for our little ones who didn't even know what they didn't know because they hadn't [10:05 - 10:09] really been in school to then turn around and miss it in all of those kind of side effects. But [10:10 - 10:16] in terms of executive function, I think, and I would be willing to bet that this would resonate [10:16 - 10:20] with anybody in your audience who is a primary teacher or in a primary setting. [10:21 - 10:26] Maybe any educational setting. The hardest thing and what we see that is really persisting [10:27 - 10:33] is the sort of disconnectedness that we're seeing in our students. In terms of [10:34 - 10:41] I make an announcement to the class, and 90% of my students will hear that, process it, [10:41 - 10:47] react, and go do it. So, if we're on the carpet, and I say, okay, we're going to move to our seats, [10:48 - 10:52] and you know, you have one or two students that are just still sitting on the carpet, like it didn't [10:52 - 11:00] even register those directions. And it's very jarring to see. And unfortunately, we've gotten used [11:00 - 11:06] to it, you know, but I want to say that for the first, you know, 10 years of my career that wasn't [11:07 - 11:15] outlier, like every few years, you might have that. Whereas now, we can be speaking directly to [11:15 - 11:20] our students. And it's as if we're not there. And that is really challenging. It's really [11:20 - 11:27] perplexing. And certainly, I don't know that's something that we can learn, learn about executive [11:27 - 11:34] functions and fix, but we can be a little bit more aware about some of the external factors that [11:34 - 11:42] may be contributing to some of that inattentiveness. You know, in addition to that, I would say, [11:42 - 11:47] just, and this is globally because of development and the age that our students are, [11:48 - 11:54] it's issues with memory, and that can be not because I think their memory capacity is decreasing, [11:54 - 12:01] but I just think that we have to be so incredibly sensitive to the very finite amount of storage, [12:01 - 12:06] of working memory storage space that they have that sometimes it, we forget, we take that for [12:06 - 12:13] granted. And so that can bring up problems as well when we're not really mindful of just what a small [12:13 - 12:19] capacity we're working with. And we have to really be careful to match our expectations to that. [12:19 - 12:29] Yeah. Yeah. I think you've let us in a direction of maybe the value of naming, defining some of [12:32 - 12:38] terms from cognitive science or some of those skills that on their surface can probably [12:38 - 12:47] feel a little bit theoretical or abstract from the day to day for most teachers, right? But kind of [12:47 - 12:51] knowing what some of them are, what they're called, being able to then identify [12:53 - 12:59] students at their development levels, students who are maybe still needing to develop some of those [12:59 - 13:06] skills or recognizing it first, right? Is step one to being able to determine, okay, you know, [13:06 - 13:12] this kid needs a little more support with this or my students as a whole are coming in as a cohort, [13:12 - 13:20] and there are certain skills, awareness, development that I used to take for granted that now it's [13:20 - 13:28] taking a little bit longer to to come up out. So I do need to be more engaged with that because now I'm [13:28 - 13:33] responsible for it. Maybe it's at third grade, fourth or fifth grade, which things that used to [13:33 - 13:39] happen at first or second, right? But now you just be paying more attention to maybe for each of you, [13:39 - 13:48] are there a couple of those ideas or terminologies from the cognitive science realm that are worth? [13:48 - 13:54] Teachers just being familiar with and being able to identify, you know, in these K to three years [13:54 - 14:01] again, where that's because they really do, they are illustrated in the classroom, right? [14:01 - 14:07] Even if it is not always terminology that that individual teachers are using on a daily basis. [14:08 - 14:14] I can not, I'll jump in on that. Ross, it's, it's worth very quickly just like unpacking executive [14:14 - 14:20] functions. And my first book really looked at what was referred to as higher order executive [14:20 - 14:27] functions and what Sarah and I are focused on in this book is referred to as core executive functions, [14:27 - 14:34] which are working memory, inhibition, incognitive flexibility, sometimes referred to as shifting. [14:35 - 14:40] And if, and I'll just throw this out there and then let Sarah like really bring it practical into [14:40 - 14:45] the primary classroom.

And I do just want to say this as a secondary teacher. And as someone who's [14:45 - 14:52] lucky enough to visit lots of classrooms all the way through college, I'm now after this project [14:52 - 14:59] with Sarah over the last two years, I'm like completely 100% convinced that have, and Sarah kind of [14:59 - 15:05] mentioned like educators in every setting, I think every educator and parent and we can talk about [15:05 - 15:12] that feedback in a little bit would benefit from this book in the same way that as teachers of older [15:12 - 15:18] kids and older human beings would benefit from spending the day or even an hour in a really gifted [15:18 - 15:22] primary teachers classroom. Because Sarah kept saying to the writing processes like I'd bring [15:22 - 15:28] something up and she's like we don't even have to say that like we live in this all the time. And so [15:29 - 15:35] and you're kind of mentioning it too, just naming it, just describing it, explain this is what it [15:35 - 15:40] looks like. Here's a misconception about it. Here's where you might be spotting some of what's [15:40 - 15:45] going on with these core executive functions. But I would say if I had to pick two terms, [15:45 - 15:50] I think every primary teacher would really benefit from like if you could put on a pair of glasses [15:50 - 15:58] and view your classroom space, your kids would be working memory capacity and cognitive load. [15:59 - 16:05] And how you can, to Sarah's mentioned that already like can we, is this some panacea and I'm [16:05 - 16:13] not. But is there ways in which we can see our environment, our routines, our instructions in a way [16:13 - 16:20] that decreases extraneous cognitive load, kind of the stuff that's taxing my brain, if you will, [16:21 - 16:29] my working memory capacity so that I can free that working memory capacity up to have some bandwidth [16:30 - 16:35] to maybe better self regulate or stay focused on the task in hand or apply that to learning. [16:36 - 16:40] So if I had to pick two, with your question, it would be getting really familiar with working [16:40 - 16:45] memory and cognitive load. And I'll let Sarah talk about that because she has lots of really good [16:45 - 16:54] things to say. And I agree with those two concepts. So working memory is one of the three core [16:54 - 17:01] executive functions. And working memory is an active mental space where you are concurrently [17:01 - 17:08] maintaining and processing information. So if you think of your mind spotlight, whatever you're [17:08 - 17:15] thinking about at the moment, that is happening in your working memory. Cognitive load is the job [17:15 - 17:21] that we're giving working memory. And cognitive load can be not just the actual [17:22 - 17:30] task, mental task. It can also be factors in the environments that are making that cognitive load [17:30 - 17:35] a little bit more heavy for your working memory. It can be internal factors, which of course we [17:35 - 17:43] cannot control, but it's good for us to sort of understand what goes into if cognitive load is [17:43 - 17:53] great or if it's manageable. And so cognitive load can vary. Well, working memory capacity can vary. [17:53 - 18:02] So for example, if I got no sleep and I'm hungry and there's construction outside and I'm distracted, [18:03 - 18:10] my potential for my working memory is going to be really compromised. So whatever you give me is [18:10 - 18:16] just going to be heavy. So on a normal day where I'm energized and I feel good and there's [18:16 - 18:21] nothing kind of distracting going on and I have all the background knowledge to do the task that I'm [18:21 - 18:27] given. That same job might not be a huge cognitive load for me. My working memory might be like [18:27 - 18:33] peace of cake. I've got this. But there are so many different variables that can affect what the [18:33 - 18:39] demands that we're putting on our students. And so for us to understand a little bit about executive [18:39 - 18:47] functions is to really be able to look at the environment, the context and say what can I do [18:47 - 18:54] understanding this, understanding the core executive functions. What can I do to make sure that [18:54 - 19:02] the cognitive load that I am placing on my students, whether I mean to or not, is not unnecessarily [19:02 - 19:09] heavy. So am I giving them more than they can handle or am I making the job harder that it needs [19:09 - 19:15] to be? So absolutely working memory, cognitive load, cognitive load is not an executive function but [19:15 - 19:21] it is an idea central to it's the job that any of us are, the mental job that any of us are doing [19:21 - 19:27] in the moments and adults, this is not exclusive to children or to school at all. So you know, [19:27 - 19:34] we give the example of you're driving, you're in an unfamiliar place, the radio's on, maybe you have [19:34 - 19:42] a passenger talking to you, that's a lot for your working memory and that's a big cognitive load. [19:42 - 19:48] If you compare that to you're driving in a familiar place, everything, maybe it's the car you've [19:48 - 19:53] been driving forever and it's quiet, that same task is going to be very easy for you. So [19:54 - 19:57] similarly, for the classroom, we want to think about those kind of things. [19:58 - 20:05] You know, can you maybe give an illustration or an anecdote of what does look like in the classroom [20:05 - 20:14] when students, you know, whether either they're cognitive load is too heavy or just otherwise, [20:14 - 20:20] right, they're having challenges with their executive function and how does that manifest maybe [20:20 - 20:28] in some common challenges, whether it's behaviors or, you know, challenges with their learning that [20:29 - 20:36] teachers may be familiar with, but maybe haven't previously understood the cause as well or have [20:36 - 20:46] attributed it

to other things. Sarah, can I jump in and the bat betty betty? Okay. That's what this [20:46 - 20:50] book's all about. Ross, I'm so glad you asked that because it's, and I mentioned this word [20:50 - 20:56] misconceptions before, we've really tried to unpack like, okay, you're seeing this behavior, [20:56 - 21:04] and we know that behavior is manifest from somewhere. And this regulated behavior, the off-task [21:04 - 21:09] behavior, what might be even seen as wilful defiance, like I just gave you these instructions and [21:09 - 21:13] we're getting up from the carpet we're going here and it's like, Sarah's told me stories. She's [21:13 - 21:19] like, that there's a handful of kids, she mentioned it, all right, like we just set, like, you know, [21:19 - 21:28] so you can be seen as like this like, almost wilful behavior and trying to tease out like some of [21:28 - 21:35] those misconceptions and not, and it might be all of those things, right, but it might be things that we [21:35 - 21:43] can very intentionally consider through three, like, lenses, the books framed around the core [21:43 - 21:49] executive functions we just mentioned and cognitive load. And just to be clear, and Sarah alluded to [21:49 - 21:56] this cognitive load is not a bad thing when it's the cognitive load that we kind of intentionally [21:56 - 22:01] apply in the learning process. It's the extraneous, it's the things that might be getting in the way. [22:01 - 22:07] So we encourage environment like considering your environment and that's the acoustic environment, [22:07 - 22:13] that's the visual environment, that's the physical stuff in your space through an executive [22:13 - 22:19] functioning lens. Same thing with your instruction, right, do I have the background knowledge to do [22:19 - 22:26] this task or activity to have the materials I need? Is it too much? Is it too little? And then [22:27 - 22:32] looking at routines, predictable routines, and offloading some of that fraying up working memory [22:32 - 22:38] because they just become automatic and the more automaticity we have, the better. So it's trying to [22:38 - 22:44] just kind of step back and see the same thing you've done every day forever, maybe through a different [22:44 - 22:51] lens, through that executive functioning lens. But the thing I love most about the book is that [22:51 - 22:58] that practical side, what's it look like in the classroom in Sarah? We went round and round about [22:58 - 23:03] this because the talk she gave a big part of it was this Betty in the Bats when I first heard Sarah [23:03 - 23:10] speak. And that's when I kind of fell out of my chair like, oh my gosh, this is what everybody needs to [23:10 - 23:15] hear and just apply it to your own context. So we went round and round, could we put it in the book, [23:15 - 23:20] can we leave it in it? Literally, it became ultimately Sarah, would you agree kind of the [23:20 - 23:27] through line in some ways, each chapter we come back to? Okay, so now what would that look like [23:27 - 23:32] considering this analogy or this story that Sarah is going to tell right now? It's really good, [23:32 - 23:38] Russ. Yeah, and I would add a new short version to Sarah, super short version. [23:38 - 23:43] Super short version. Yes, I will definitely summarize Betty in the Bats. But before I do that, [23:43 - 23:49] you're going to see things like trouble starting a task, trouble finishing a task. [23:50 - 23:56] You're going to see kids that do academically, they're doing poorly yet you get the sense that [23:56 - 24:01] they understand the content and what's happening is they're having trouble either holding the [24:01 - 24:06] directions and they're working memory or you threw too much content at them at once and now they're [24:06 - 24:13] trying to juggle the directions and the contents or they seem just distracted. You've given them [24:13 - 24:17] resources and maybe they look like they're just lost like they're not sure where to look or what [24:17 - 24:22] resource to use. They have trouble getting along with their peers, they may be a little rigid in [24:22 - 24:27] terms of being able to share, being able to compromise. Now that comes with the territory in our [24:27 - 24:33] grades. But when you start to see that as a constant theme and you know as you get to know your [24:33 - 24:38] students pick up on a little bit of that, you know that they're struggling with flexibility. Even [24:38 - 24:45] when it comes to shifting from one topic to another or saying, okay, we're going to do horizontal [24:45 - 24:49] equations and now I'm going to teach you vertical equations and they really have trouble making that [24:49 - 24:57] flip. They have trouble sort of switching or being flexible mentally. Betty in the Bats is an [24:57 - 25:03] example of a first grader who's given a task where she has to write sentences about bats. So that [25:03 - 25:08] they've been learning about bats and they've been learning about complete sentences. And what we do [25:08 - 25:16] in the book is we lay out the situation and we basically say here's what it might seem like we're [25:16 - 25:21] just saying right sentences like what's the big deal. But here are all the actual demands that are [25:21 - 25:27] going on behind the scenes. Like here's what we're really asking of Betty. We're asking her to, [25:27 - 25:33] you know, come up with ideas for sentences and hold that in her mind. Then we're asking her to [25:33 - 25:38] now write these sentences and make them complete sentences. And we're asking her to remember, [25:38 - 25:43] you know, the sounds for words. And we're asking for her to remember letter identification. And [25:43 - 25:47] you know, maybe we have something else going on in the classroom that totally separate from the [25:47 - 25:54] situation that is distracting. So we use this scenario and we kind of go through the book and

we [25:54 - 25:58] every at the end of every chapter, we revisit Betty and the bats and we say, okay, now that we've [25:58 - 26:05] learned about structuring routines, how can we help Betty and how can we take something off of [26:05 - 26:11] that mental plate that we've established that she has a very, you know, full mental plate of [26:11 - 26:16] things that aren't really related to the learning goal. So the learning goal or the goal for the [26:16 - 26:21] practice in the moment is complete sentence and demonstrating you learned about bats. But really [26:21 - 26:26] what we end up assessing is her ability to pay attention, her ability to remember, her ability [26:26 - 26:32] to write letters correctly. And so as we in the book, you know, we give lots and lots of examples but [26:32 - 26:38] we each chapter, we go back to Betty just to say, okay, we're going to revisit Betty and now that [26:38 - 26:45] we understand how we can tweak our instruction. Let's look at how we can help Betty. So yes, [26:45 - 26:50] it is definitely we wanted to have something cohesive, I have a cohesive example through the book. [26:50 - 26:55] So we hope that's helpful and we're very visual with the graphics about removing actual [26:56 - 27:05] demands from Betty's cognitive load. Are there, what are some of the most common practical things [27:05 - 27:13] teachers can do to reduce distractions and, you know, and make it easier to focus, maybe certain [27:13 - 27:19] things that I assume a lot of certain things that the teachers don't realize might be distraction. [27:20 - 27:26] That's I think yeah, I'll start and then you pick up Mitch, you fill in the holes that I leave [27:26 - 27:32] behind. I think one of the best things about primary teachers is our devotion to creating this [27:32 - 27:39] nurturing environment. And I don't mean to knock the upper grades, but you know, I think we are [27:39 - 27:48] known for having warm and fuzzy and cuddly rooms, which we are not saying shouldn't be the case. [27:48 - 27:55] But I think we need to be mindful of what is in our student's visual field at the time when we [27:55 - 28:01] want them to be paying attention to say us or say a task that they're working on. Understanding [28:01 - 28:06] that inhibition, which is one of the three core executive functions that we haven't really [28:06 - 28:11] visited in ambition means your ability to filter out the irrelevant and stay focused on what's [28:11 - 28:16] important. And a lot of those things are reflexive. You know, I always give the example you're driving [28:16 - 28:21] down the road. There's a new billboard. Your eyes are drawn to it right away. You can't even help it. [28:21 - 28:27] It's just it's instinctual. And so, same thing with our students. We have to be careful what we're [28:27 - 28:34] putting where and the demand that we're expecting their inhibitory processes to successfully, you know, [28:34 - 28:42] navigate. So for sure, what you see in the room, it can all still be there. We just want to be [28:42 - 28:49] strategic about where we put certain things. Resource wise, you want to have specific and close, [28:49 - 28:55] because visual search puts demand on working memory. And then, Mitch, do you want to talk about [28:55 - 29:02] the acoustic environment? Sure. Yeah, I think it's worth exploring for us. And I'm sure your [29:02 - 29:08] listeners have heard that a noisy classroom is a productive classroom. And what Sarah and I [29:08 - 29:13] hear what we the curiosity we bring to the book maybe is the best way to say it is it might be, [29:14 - 29:20] but it may it might not be. So just having a noisy environment might actually put a tremendous [29:20 - 29:28] amount of load, you know, that experience. So like I'm trying to inhibit and tell a story of a student [29:28 - 29:34] that I was speaking to in a walkthrough I was visiting a school and had a conversation. I'll [29:34 - 29:39] make it short, but, you know, that I did she would close her eyes and kind of hear like this [29:39 - 29:45] could cough any in the classroom. I was so for this particular student spending so much like [29:45 - 29:52] of that bandwidth, just trying to inhibit like lock that out so I can focus on what I'm trying to do. [29:53 - 29:59] So that acoustic environment is a really interesting one. There's, you know, different opinions on it [29:59 - 30:03] where we kind of land like something. I want to play music all the time. Okay, well, if you're [30:03 - 30:08] going to play music, let's play this specific type of music. And this is where saying specific [30:08 - 30:13] type of music. And so I was just saying, but everything that Sarah and I present in this book is [30:13 - 30:20] rooted firmly in research. This isn't just like our opinions based on being veteran teachers [30:20 - 30:24] all these years. And like, hey, this kind of works like it's not like the jury's not out on these [30:24 - 30:30] ideas, but presenting in a way to say, okay, now take that to your acoustic environment. And what's [30:30 - 30:36] that mean for your space? Because that crafting your space is important too, right? You walk in. There's [30:36 - 30:45] no learning environments are never neutral. There are artificial spaces that we create and curate [30:45 - 30:51] and continue to nurture. So the acoustic environment in particular is an interesting one. And I'm [30:52 - 30:59] encouraging teachers to say, look, again, it might be really productive, but it might not be in the [30:59 - 31:05] your job is to know who's in the room. And that's what I think really interesting about all this [31:05 - 31:10] work when you boil it all down. It's about knowing who it's relationships with your kids. Like [31:10 - 31:15] knowing who's in the room, knowing what's working for them, and trying to make those adjustments. [31:17 - 31:24] Is there, I mean, is there any likelihood that there's

no students in the class for whom [31:25 - 31:29] and overly noisy classroom is distracting and inhibiting? [31:30 - 31:34] Are you saying is it likely that everyone's at home? [31:34 - 31:40] Well, I'm saying is it's very polite of you to, you know, to diplomatic to say that might be true, [31:40 - 31:44] but to me, it sounds like somebody who was trying to come up with something smart to say, but [31:45 - 31:50] didn't there was no nuance to the fact that yeah, I would say on the one hand, [31:51 - 31:55] sure, a silent classroom where there's only one person talking and it's all the teacher and [31:55 - 32:02] there's no response and, you know, no student, no evidence of engagement verbally or otherwise is [32:03 - 32:07] probably not indicative of the best learning environment, especially for younger kids, but [32:07 - 32:12] that there needs to be something organized. Yeah, I think it's good. [32:12 - 32:15] That if everybody's just talking on top of each other and there's a lot going on over here [32:15 - 32:20] and there's, there's every class has to have some kids for whom that does not work, right? [32:21 - 32:27] One thousand percent in the story I tell, and it's a true story, the teacher just kept getting [32:27 - 32:32] and we've been in the spick louder and to thinking I'm communicating because the noise level [32:32 - 32:36] was going up and up, and I'm just telling the story of one particular student, but yeah, [32:36 - 32:40] and it's also worth saying, you know, let Sarah weigh in on this particular for primary [32:41 - 32:46] its moments, like if it is direct instruction or in my world, like maybe I'm lecturing for five or [32:46 - 32:51] seven minutes, ten minutes on a topic that I need to explain to you, it's complicated. [32:52 - 32:58] There's times where I need it to be silent, period. I'm speaking, we're talking, I'm checking [32:58 - 33:03] him for understanding, like I'm in control, but I can't do that for 60 minutes or 100 minutes or [33:03 - 33:10] even 30 minutes, right? So it's having those times for that quote unquote noisiness, but yeah, [33:10 - 33:14] you're absolutely right, and maybe I was trying to be nice and diplomatic, but it doesn't work [33:14 - 33:20] all the time. But if you walk into a room and it's noisy for six hours of a day, my hunch is [33:20 - 33:26] there's some students in there that could be served better. Yeah, and I would reframe this as [33:26 - 33:35] we are actually protecting our students' ability to think. We are removing some of the demand [33:35 - 33:39] that we might be putting on their inhibitory processes to say, okay, I'm going to have your [33:39 - 33:46] neighbors chatting while you're trying to think through this activity. And now, not only do you [33:46 - 33:50] have to think through the activity, you've got to filter that out and not listen to that. [33:50 - 33:56] And we know that our minds are wired to listen or drawn to language, even if it's not our own [33:56 - 34:04] native language. So we have to actively not pay attention to that. So what we're saying about [34:04 - 34:12] the acoustic environment is dialogue, noise should be purposeful because engagement in terms of [34:12 - 34:18] just talking is poor proxy for learning. We know that if you just have a chatty classroom that's [34:18 - 34:22] not indicative of any learning happening. If we're talking about socialization, that's something [34:22 - 34:29] different. If that's the purpose, that's something different. But if we want our classrooms to be [34:29 - 34:36] noisy for the sake of being noisy because we think for some reason that's healthy, what we have [34:36 - 34:43] to understand is what we're adding the job, the cognitive job that we're adding to our students' [34:43 - 34:50] minds. If they are trying to either have a conversation, like a directed conversation, maybe they're [34:50 - 34:55] sharing something that they were thinking of, or they're trying to get some work done, or they're [34:55 - 35:02] trying to listen to the teacher. And now we're saying, you know, don't listen to that, listen to me, [35:03 - 35:09] and so we want to be purposeful and even music. I mean, we want to have instrumental. [35:10 - 35:15] Unless, you know, if it's your coming to the carpet song, like think about what the purpose is, [35:15 - 35:20] right? And so if we want our kids to be singing along, of course, we don't want instrumental music. [35:20 - 35:28] But we just want to be purposeful about the times that we're encouraging, chatting, the times [35:28 - 35:33] that we're encouraging, socialization, and really understand that we might inadvertently be [35:34 - 35:39] making it harder for our students when we just want our room to be noisy for the sake of being noisy. [35:41 - 35:48] And Ross, there's times as well that we unpack in the book, we even listen photographs from classrooms [35:48 - 35:55] of maybe it's not a time where it is quiet, where there could be chatter, but giving students the [35:56 - 36:02] resources and materials like the agency to say, hey, I need like blockers up. I'm trying to complete [36:02 - 36:09] this. It's not meant to necessarily be a totally quiet time, because we're out doing whatever [36:09 - 36:18] XYZ activity is, but I need, I need to inhibit. So I can grab this, put this up, the little, [36:18 - 36:23] again, making it really practical and relevant to like what's happening in the classroom in all cases. [36:24 - 36:33] Right, and awesome. I imagine helping students develop their awareness of those dynamics could [36:33 - 36:40] be part of executive functioning, like not only when it's appropriate to be, for there to be [36:40 - 36:46] more noise when it's time to be quiet, you know, when we're listening and hearing the instruction [36:46 - 36:52] versus when we're maybe applying what we've learned or actively doing, but just their awareness of how [36:54 - 37:01]

each of them has an effect on their peers and, you know, how, I mean, the classroom is an organism, [37:03 - 37:08] that if we don't have some common understanding of each of our role in the learning environment, [37:08 - 37:15] that it's detrimental to our classmates, and that would be an important thing to learn over time. [37:15 - 37:20] And, you know, interestingly, the more we talk about these early elementary kids, the more I think, [37:20 - 37:26] well, the exact same things have applied to adults. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you were trying [37:26 - 37:32] to do work, the last thing you want is a bunch of people around you talking. I mean, and we have [37:32 - 37:37] fully developed executive functions. We actually, you know, along the lines of what you were saying about [37:37 - 37:43] more of the metacognitive piece and the understanding that theory of mind. Other people have these experiences [37:43 - 37:48] too, which is, which is something new for our young students. We do have a chapter in the book on [37:49 - 37:55] building your student's own awareness of their own attention and helping them to, you know, [37:55 - 38:00] being the model as a teacher to say, oh, it was just reading this page to you. I have no idea what I [38:00 - 38:04] just read. My mind just went somewhere else. Let me read it again and sort of normalizing the fact [38:04 - 38:10] that this is not just you because you're little and you're learning. This is everyone. We all get [38:10 - 38:16] distracted, you know, and as hard as it may be, we can make choices about about what we do to support [38:16 - 38:22] or to challenge our attention and our, you know, our executive functions. And you don't need to use, [38:22 - 38:26] we're not saying teach your kids. Here's the executive functions, like not at all, but just [38:26 - 38:31] I'll say to my kids like, when I'm in a staff meeting, I can't sit next to Mrs. Because all I [38:31 - 38:37] want to do is talk to her. And so you make it, you know, you generalize it as this is just being human. [38:38 - 38:42] And there are some tools I'm going to make available in the room for you. And you can start to [38:42 - 38:49] recognize in yourself, like it's too noisy or I need, you know, I need some visual reduction here. [38:49 - 38:54] So we do talk about that in the book of helping our students start to recognize that in themselves [38:54 - 39:00] and others. So thanks for, you know, bringing that up. Well, once teachers have a good understanding [39:00 - 39:07] of this, let's say once they read the book, right? How much do you, does it feel, do you feel like [39:07 - 39:13] how much, I mean, this applies, I'm sharing your own practice, Sarah, how much of it just becomes [39:13 - 39:18] really intuitive to what you do. And you just, you have that knowledge, you're not necessarily [39:18 - 39:24] needing to explicitly access it on a daily basis. But you sort of understand your objectives in [39:24 - 39:28] the classroom, the executive functioning, what you're doing with students, or how much of it is [39:29 - 39:34] needing to refer back to it and think about, okay, these are, you know, these are the skills that [39:34 - 39:41] I'm prioritizing right now. And I'm thinking about that in terms of how manageable, I guess, [39:42 - 39:48] does it feel for a teacher, right? Does it feel like it's something I have to keep going back to [39:48 - 39:53] and thinking about? Is it something that once I really understand it, I'm sort of doing it, [39:53 - 39:58] and I refresh my memory every now and then, or in particularly when I feel like I'm struggling with it, [39:58 - 40:06] what do you think? It is empowering knowledge because it is another lens through which [40:07 - 40:12] to look at your practice, to professionalize your judgment. And once you internalize and you get [40:12 - 40:18] used to saying, okay, am I, you know, let me take a look at my room and, you know, do I have these [40:18 - 40:23] new recess games out right in front of them? And am I expecting them to pay attention to me? You know, [40:23 - 40:28] once you get used to thinking that way, it really does happen automatically. I find even for [40:28 - 40:34] myself, when I have to purposefully go back to thinking, you know, even bringing up the words [40:34 - 40:40] executive function is when a student is struggling. And I want to pinpoint like what's going on here? [40:40 - 40:45] Are you really having trouble, you know, learning to read, blending sounds together? Or is there [40:45 - 40:50] something about the way that I'm teaching you that is, that is challenging your working memory? [40:50 - 40:55] Or is there something, you know, in the environment or the way that I'm teaching that is overloading, [40:55 - 41:01] I'm giving you too much? So that's when I find I purposefully I'm going back, you know, and sometimes [41:01 - 41:06] it's in a moment of exasperation. I mean, we're all human. We all get frustrated and then I have to say, [41:06 - 41:11] okay, let's remember there, you know, five and six and seven and eight, depending on what grade you [41:11 - 41:18] teach and their ability to pay attention, which is driven by executive function, is not as [41:19 - 41:26] we can expect from an adult. So I have to sort of manage my expectations as well. But once you [41:26 - 41:31] understand, it's kind of like you just see things a little bit differently, like, oh, I need to do, [41:31 - 41:35] I need to only have them do the first three problems and then stop. I need to not give them [41:35 - 41:41] directions for the entire thing. Like that's way more than they can manage. So in that sense it's, [41:41 - 41:47] it becomes seamless through your decision making and it is not lessons that you have to teach. This [41:47 - 41:52] is knowledge for the teacher to say, now that I know this, what does that look like in my classroom [41:52 - 41:56] for my

students? It is not, you know, an additional curriculum or anything like that. [41:57 - 42:04] Yeah, that's important to like make really clear that this is not something else for a teacher to [42:04 - 42:11] do. This is not adding to their plates, but it is one of those things that what it's like once you [42:11 - 42:17] see it, you can't unsee it in a good way. You're just, you're just see like I mentioned earlier, [42:17 - 42:24] like the same space, the same thing I'm doing just through a different lens, but it's not there for [42:24 - 42:32] then something else to do. It's just getting curious about, oh, what I'm seeing this, how is that [42:32 - 42:40] related to executive functioning? Before we close what I want to ask you, you both can take a crack at [42:40 - 42:49] this to make the self-serving case to the teacher who is new to this as resistant as like, I don't [42:49 - 42:55] need to know that or in my day, we didn't need to do executive functions, whatever it is, right? [42:55 - 43:00] They're not listening anymore, but their principal maybe is listening and is saying, okay, I need to [43:00 - 43:06] figure out how to get more of my faculty on board with this. I can, I know there's a couple of [43:06 - 43:12] teachers. I know who they are that they really need to pay attention to this. And of course, [43:13 - 43:19] you know, we may have a consensus agreement of the value to students, right? When we when we [43:19 - 43:25] emphasize the executive functions and have more of an awareness understanding patients with it, [43:25 - 43:32] but for those for whom that just still feels like it's out of reach or it's another thing, [43:32 - 43:40] what's the case that this in fact makes things better for you as the educator, as the professional, [43:40 - 43:46] makes your life better, your practice, when you are effective at helping students develop their [43:46 - 43:53] executive functions? I can, I'm going to jump in Sarah and let you have the last word for the primary [43:53 - 44:00] space, but I can say it absolutely, and Sarah just mentioned this, like we're talking to the [44:00 - 44:06] teachers here. This is an interestingly rather the pre-read that both folks from Corwin and folks [44:06 - 44:12] that people that educators we asked to pre-read that parents, I really resonated with parents as well [44:13 - 44:19] this book, but this idea in the upper grades like upper elementary and I've had this conversation [44:19 - 44:27] so many times I it's not it's not even fun to bring up, but the idea that I've had upper elementary [44:27 - 44:30] teachers tell me, well they're not going to have any of these supports in middle school, [44:31 - 44:36] why should we do this here? They're not going to like we need to get them ready for that [44:36 - 44:41] reality or middle schools saying, again, it's just a few you mentioned. Well, why would we, [44:41 - 44:44] why should we do this? They're not going to have it in high

school and high school teachers tell [44:44 - 44:52] me the same thing about college, right? And just to be clear, yeah, in the way I, the way I just [44:52 - 44:57] said it to, I try to be a feminine person and I'm speaking to a group and someone asked me that, [44:57 - 45:02] I don't want to like put them on the spot, but I always just have like this kind of corny story of [45:02 - 45:08] like, well, if you knew tomorrow for some reason that tomorrow and then the next three days you [45:08 - 45:14] couldn't have any water, you're just going to be dehydrated for whatever reason and you had to [45:14 - 45:22] lift through that, okay? Would you stop drinking water today to get ready for the dehydration tomorrow? [45:22 - 45:26] You know, and it's another way of saying it a more direct is like, you know, [45:27 - 45:34] poor, inattentive teaching in the few poor, inattentive teaching now is not excused because [45:34 - 45:40] that might be what they're coming into. So this notion of like what it does for the teacher is [45:40 - 45:47] absolutely breezy. I would go as far to say it's just more like fun and interesting. You're seeing [45:47 - 45:53] the whole learning process through, I keep saying it's like a different lens. I personally believe it's [45:53 - 45:58] like, it's a call action in saying what, well, if we're going to develop that sense of agency and [45:58 - 46:05] learners that they carry with them and there's a progression K through 12 with this, I feel that [46:05 - 46:11] it's a responsibility of every teacher to at least be informed about what we're talking about. [46:12 - 46:19] I'll pass it to Sarah. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, I am the audience for this book and I [46:19 - 46:27] wrote it for myself and my colleagues because I felt like we need it just for us. There's two [46:27 - 46:31] main things that I would say, if a teacher is resistant to, you know, I don't need to know about [46:31 - 46:38] another, everybody talks about the brain yada yada. We lay the foundation. We teach kids what they, [46:38 - 46:43] the knowledge and the skills that they need to be successful for all the years to come [46:44 - 46:52] and that is so, so incredibly important that we get it right and that our students leave us [46:53 - 47:01] fluent in, you know, reading, fluent in computing. Otherwise, the teachers and years to come are [47:01 - 47:09] constantly backpedaling. So it is our privilege to be able to be with these kids at this moment in [47:09 - 47:15] their academic career and their development. That being said, it doesn't always go, we don't [47:15 - 47:21] always teach everything and they get it right away. I mean, so the frustration that comes along with [47:21 - 47:26] that, both the frustration, like, I told you this five times and why don't you have it, but also the [47:26 - 47:33] frustration that our kids get pushed along and we know that they have holes. So I think this is a [47:33 - 47:40] body

of knowledge that we should have been privy to. We should have been taught. And really, [47:40 - 47:46] you only hear of executive functions in the context of special education, but it doesn't matter [47:46 - 47:51] what you teach if you're the art teacher, if you're a home-room teacher, if you're [47:51 - 47:57] itinerant, if you're a speech, this is a human issue. I wouldn't say issue. This is knowledge [47:57 - 48:03] of just being human and this specific knowledge that we're sharing is about being human around this [48:03 - 48:13] time of development. And teachers should know how learning happens and how to increase the odds [48:13 - 48:21] of learning and how to, you know, make their job more successful and more seamless and more efficient. [48:21 - 48:27] And so I think for the sake of your students, of course, and setting them off on the path of success, [48:27 - 48:34] we should know about this, but also for the sake of our success as teachers and knowing [48:34 - 48:39] we're not having kids who just are continually not getting it. They're not picking up the things [48:39 - 48:45] that they need. So I think being able to send our students off at the automaticity and the [48:45 - 48:51] foundations that they need is huge reason why and understanding that this is, you deserve to know [48:51 - 48:57] about this. And this is going to be helpful for you. It's going to professionalize your decision-making. [48:57 - 49:04] And I think that's reason enough to want to know, to want to be curious about how you can support [49:04 - 49:10] your students. Yeah, I'm sorry Sarah, I said the last word, but I do have to say something that [49:10 - 49:16] you've said in the past. Yeah, we've got this to me. And I know. But it's the idea, Ross, [49:16 - 49:21] and every teacher who's been in the classroom long enough knows you look back on your practice and [49:21 - 49:28] you think like, gosh, I sure wish I would have, but you figure things out through trial and error. [49:28 - 49:33] And one of the things we really aimed for in this book for specifically for the primary, but again, [49:34 - 49:40] I'm saying, everybody would benefit from this is why, if we know some things, [49:41 - 49:46] why not have that knowledge before you even enter the classroom and you don't go into that 10 [49:46 - 49:51] years, three years, five years of figuring it out. And that's really what this is about. [49:52 - 49:57] Yeah, yeah, it makes me think a similar thing that I've [49:58 - 50:04] thought about in, again, with adults and professional settings, not pertaining to executive functions. [50:04 - 50:14] But I have said that, you know, with hiring, I believe like 20% is hiring the right person. [50:14 - 50:22] 80% is what you do afterwards. It's having clarity of what the objectives are in purpose and [50:22 - 50:30] providing ongoing training and development and resources and support and helping people. [50:30 - 50:38] And to me, it seems obvious, but I've come up against people who think this is ridiculous. [50:38 - 50:43] It's up to them that they succeed or not. And I say, well, then what's the outcome? Then [50:43 - 50:47] you keep getting rid of people who aren't working out to get somebody else. Who is that helping? [50:47 - 50:55] And it's not for them. It is, it's for me. If I'm the leader of the team, I'm successful. If the [50:55 - 51:02] people on my team are successful, right? And so it's better for me to invest in helping them succeed [51:02 - 51:08] so that we all do well together. Then for me to just say, well, it's up to you. You know, I hired you [51:08 - 51:12] and I do what you need to do. You know, so well, not about executive functioning, you know, [51:12 - 51:18] similarly for the teacher. Look, once you get this stuff running, right? It's not just good for [51:18 - 51:23] the student. It's good for you too. And it's good for everybody across the class because [51:23 - 51:30] I mean, certainly I would assume that there's those inner connectedness, right? [51:30 - 51:36] Where if you have two students who are really struggling with it, it's challenging everybody else [51:36 - 51:45] and vice versa that, you know, it's not purely and exclusively just needing that long-term thing [51:45 - 51:49] in which to your point of sometimes we can try to just fast-forward through some of those [51:49 - 51:54] pieces. Well, in the future, this isn't going to be the case, right? And I see this now with [51:55 - 52:00] people I'm five year old and they'll say, well, you know, they got to learn this now because in the [52:00 - 52:08] future, you know, life's not fair. Well, he's five now, like, what happens when they're teenagers [52:08 - 52:14] at the moment? That'll happen when it happens, but right now, this is a young child, right? So [52:14 - 52:21] let's deal with what's appropriate at the given moment, right? Well, thank you both. I really, [52:21 - 52:26] I've really appreciated having you here, like talking through the book here and I know the book is [52:26 - 52:32] now available from Corwin or wherever folks like to get their books. Is there anything else you'd [52:32 - 52:38] like to point out before we wrap up here? Anything our listeners should check out in addition to the book. [52:38 - 52:45] Maybe book one here at Upper Elementary, Middle High School College, but I can't think of anything, [52:45 - 52:51] Sarah. No, I would love to hear the direction that people take after they do read it, what that, [52:51 - 52:58] what they're inspired to do or what they're driven to do. Yeah, I would say this Ross, I think [52:58 - 53:03] what educators and parents will find in if Sarah and I were very intentional about this, like, [53:03 - 53:09] it's rooted in research, but it's not full of jargon and it's real, it's practical and I would [53:09 - 53:14] even maybe say, I wouldn't say quick read, but it's not a really long book either and all of that [53:14 - 53:21] was by design. So I'm echoing Sarah like, if you read it, let us know what you think and how you're [53:21 - 53:25] seeing things in your classroom, but thanks for having us Ross, really appreciate it. Thanks. [53:27 - 53:34] Perfect. Well, listeners, we will put the link below to episode 81 of the show. Can't believe [53:34 - 53:39] that was more than 100 episodes ago, I think at this point. With Mitch talking about executive [53:39 - 53:45] functions for every classroom for three to 12, if we happen to be interested in that one maybe [53:45 - 53:50] or in an administrator position and you have teachers at multiple levels, and we will of course [53:50 - 53:55] put the link directly to executive function K3 where you can get that from Corwin or again, [53:55 - 54:01] wherever you get your books. So check all of that out. If you have not already, please do subscribe [54:01 - 54:08] to the authority. We'll have more author interviews coming your way every week on a variety of topics [54:08 - 54:17] of interest. You can check out all of the 175 180 plus episodes that we've already recorded on [54:17 - 54:22] topics such as executive functions, science of learning and much, much more. Check those out [54:22 - 54:29] or visit bpodcast.network to learn about all of our 60 plus shows. Sarah and Mitch, thanks again [54:29 - 54:32] for being here and sharing with our listeners.