Transcription complète de Stubby Talks Transformation | Episode 3: Kay Tear

of Covid at that point. And ⁓ what I do now ⁓ this Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Kay Tear: great impact both on performance but also well-being then I was like well every company is going to need this. This is you know this is a no-brainer it's going to be great and you know guess what it didn't take off the way I thought it would and so there was you know more hard work when you lose that sense of working in a bigger company and having that kind of sales process work naturally then that was something very different when you're a small fish you know in a big pond and you're trying to tell people about here's something different. When you're doing it within something that feels safe in a bigger organisation, it feels more trusted I think. for a lot of other people, something different would be like, ⁓ about all this, you know, what about all this that we've always done? ⁓ I think people can be a bit also defensive it as well when you say, I don't believe in that, the way that works anymore. You know, I actually think this is a much better approach. And again, you've invested a lot of your life into the old ways, Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Kay Tear: then that can be hard to let go of, can't it? Dave Stubberfield: It can, yeah, I think as well to kind of touch on that, if you are talking to a business owner or business leader that has kind of created those ways of working as well, that defensiveness you mentioned is kind of, they almost feel like attacks that like, this is the way we do it. And this is the way we've been successful to this point. And I think to a degree is how do you kind of shift that mindset, if you like, to see the other side of the paper, like turn the page a little bit and see what's there and take that step back. So that's really interesting that kind of Kay Tear: Yeah. Yeah. you Yeah. Hmm. Dave Stubberfield: that journey you've been on, you mentioned that kind of trusted element to it you're no longer in that big company and you haven't got that safety net behind you. What do you feel has changed for you in kind of your approach to you as a management consultant on your own versus working in a big consultancy? Kay Tear: you Well think it definitely comes down to relationships a lot more for me and... different people may have their own approaches. But there's been a couple of communities that I'm a big part of now. One is that We Connect International, which is, certify women owned businesses. ⁓ that's something that I really didn't know about at all before, ⁓ is surprising given, you know, how many of these big companies already had this agenda. ⁓ was much, ⁓ was a much bigger agenda in the US. Of course, Trump has undone a lot of those things lately. you it's not quite what it was but they had a lot of quotas for women-owned businesses, minority-owned businesses, veterans out there and you had to fulfil certain quotas to be able to get government contracts so it really was in companies' interests to have to do that. But actually I would say that the big corporates, really were invested in this. They did see themselves as for supply change, for driving change in the ecosystem ⁓ because as you say, it's about recognising that things have happened in the past ⁓ if we don't want to repeat that, you you have to take some kind of positive action. So We Connect International has been great and of course the British Quality Foundation, which is where we met. So that was something that I got ⁓ into through awards. ⁓ So Beyond Limits programme, which is our flagship programme, we applied for the ⁓ excellence people development and engagement. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Kay Tear: with the British Quality Foundation. We were a finalist for that award and that's really a high potential talent program that helps to achieve business outcomes but through this unlocking of how we understand the mind and so it's much more effortless and reduces stress at the same time as increasing this productivity. the British Quality Foundation has also been a ⁓ community to get to know people and ⁓ people and just share these ideas that are quite different that are pushing boundaries and I think in a community community that really has its roots in continuous improvement. People are much more open to, I'll listen to anything that has a proven basis for making improvements. Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Yeah, totally agree. think the BQF, kind of the quality and the excellence that it stands for, you've got an engaged and captive audience almost immediately, haven't you? And it's kind of testament to the community. I love how people can kind of take that approach, whatever it might be, and go, okay, this is how we can weave that into what we do and how we do it. And there's always that, like you said, a continuous improvement piece where they might not overlay the entire model. Kay Tear: Boom. Bye. Dave Stubberfield: They might go, right, this is where we need to improve X, Y, Z. We'll forget ABC for now because we're fairly okay in them. Let's bring X, Y, Z up to a level. When we go right now, we can look at ABC. And people, think when they kind of look at the granularities of it, where they can really make improvements into the way they operate and the way they work, got, like I say, captive audience there that is just willing and eager to learn ⁓ take on new things. So with that said, can you talk us through Kay Tear: Hmm. Dave Stubberfield: how you go about your work at Business Reimagined. Is there a framework? Is there a model? How do you engage your clients? Kay Tear: Mmm. Yeah, well I'll just comment if I may on the ⁓ BQF, the captive audience, because absolutely right, the people that we tend to see at BQF are captive audience, ⁓ ⁓ do find that it's not always translating well to ⁓ areas the businesses that I typically work for. sometimes I work directly with kind of business functions, but sometimes a central kind of learning and development function or ⁓ talent management Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Kay

Tear: being that they want to have a say in that, you know, and it's centralized. And I've spoken to other people at the BQF and I remember a conversation with Alex Boise at Centrica and he was saying that we talk to those functions at Centrica and say, if you're going to have a best practice approach, you wouldn't just give a big contract to one supplier, which is kind of how it would work now. You know, okay, we'll have a tender, you know, it'll be X million pounds. and they'll run for three years. And he was saying to me, but we should do a range of pilots and we should get different people and see what works and then we should award the tender. I do think there's ⁓ improvement is but I don't know if it filters right through to organizations in the same way that in the women in business community, that sense about our organisation to supply diversity. That also isn't really known in the business much. Dave Stubberfield: Mmm. Kay Tear: out of the Supply and Diversity teams, that's what I found. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, really interesting. Just, just, just to double back on that. think again, the captive audience is great and people might take that into their job role and their function. So we could give a talk and we could talk about the great things that we do. But that's only a ⁓ small part of a business potentially, depending on who you might be engaging. There's some massive corporates in that community. and like you just said, you kind of want to get to the right function where you can go. Kay Tear: Yes. Dave Stubberfield: even if you ran a pilot for 20, 30 people, one, you can build a great case study from that. Two, they get to see the benefits of it and go, okay, this is interesting. And this for me is kind of the reason for the podcast, right? It's we move away from theory to the actual stories and the people that you've actually helped along the way. And that for me is kind of proofing the pudding at that point. So that's really, really key, I think is speaking to the right people for one. Kay Tear: I don't Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'll come back to your original point now, which is about the framework and how we work. So typically I'd work with an organisation that know they want to create some kind of cultural change, leadership change, or maybe even just that they're working on kind of organizational challenge. ⁓ now, a lot of it's transformation, as you can imagine. You know, we need to change our ways of working and that can be processes, it can be people, ⁓ we first go Dave Stubberfield: Mm-hmm. Yep. Kay Tear: and do research and to find out their current state of play at the moment, so what's working, what needs to be changed, the rationale, the business context, and we would interview all of the participants that are going to go on the programme and sometimes all of their managers as well, because we need to find out what is the change that you want to happen. again, the more I've got to know the continuous improvement community,

⁓ more it makes me reflect back on my field of learning and development and ⁓ been really challenging, like all through my career and all the consultancies struggle with it and they have different levels of teams that do their own research but it is difficult because transformation it varies so much you know because everybody's on their own journey and at their own start point so ⁓ a challenge and that's definitely something that I've been working with different people that meet the BQF to say how do we bring more of that in that measurement piece ⁓ anyway we would get to a point and we would say okay so ⁓ want to change. there's quite a long wish list, know, people want to change 25 things. We have to say, based on the interviews, ⁓ sounds like these three things are going to be the most ⁓ things to start moving the dial on right now. ⁓ for example, it could be people greater accountability, if I think about the Beyond Limits programme, ⁓ people better because ⁓ that was very siloed. it could you know, it could be one about wellbeing, it could be one about process or even developing their team. So we would we would usually choose three areas. we would run a program and again it depends on what the company wants and needs and budget. But typically that would have ⁓ few day to day, four day workshops where we could really get people thinking about those business problems. ⁓ And helping people ⁓ to the layers ⁓ of on those. ⁓ So we see a problem through the organisational lens. ⁓ So let's say we want to change a bonus structure. you say, right, okay, so how do we see it now? And typically people are seeing it in the way it worked for me, the way it worked historically, the way we want it to work, the challenges that are going to be there, the regulations, you know, these are not complex. These are, I should say they are complex and not easy things necessarily to solve. But often there's so much layered history there that you're kind of stripping and peeling back that until you get to Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Kay Tear: point to say now we can look at this in a really clean way and a neutral way what makes sense and what's going to help make it work and then that's what we help to do but peeling away you have to understand how the mind works how we're those things because it's not just about the organisation's perspective it's about my own perspective know so all of those participants have their own lenses and I often about it as people in their separate realities they're in like a very Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Kay Tear: virtual reality headset and I talk to leaders a lot about this to say that you need to hear it from someone else. Don't assume that because you're all in the room everyone's hearing the same thing. You're absolutely not because it's filtered through our own learning and understanding and experiences and that's why I think so much of communication fails a lot in change programs because though there's these hear a couple of core messages

that goes nowhere near ⁓ to really tackle what everybody's thinking and feeling. Dave Stubberfield: ⁓ I think for me, the bit I resonate with that is change isn't necessarily straightforward or easy. And might have leaders that go, want to change this process and we want to do this and we want to make this happen now. Great. I can appreciate the potentially the urgency and how critical it might be, but is the culture right for it? Are you ready to go and take this change on? You know, and I think that for me is the bit that I kind of I look at and question sometimes. Kay Tear: Mm. Dave Stubberfield: The bit I love is the realization that leaders have is when they go, okay, so maybe we need to do some pre-work three to six months where we kind of get everyone on board. Yes, you need to invest that time for sure. Just to make sure that everything's lined up. You don't want to, like you say, comms change. ⁓ don't want to put them out and they land wrong because it's the wrong message. You don't understand your people. You don't understand what's important to them. That for me is kind of... critical error number one, and you're trying to run before you can walk. And that's where I think a lot of organizations fail ⁓ suffer with change fatigue really is because they don't do it right. And the culture really isn't set up to implement these changes effectively in my personal opinion. It's you mentioned the word transformation. What does that word transformation mean to you, Kay? Kay Tear: ⁓ transformation. Well, I typically work more in the personal transformation and that leads out to the organizational transformation. But for me, transformation is something different because we see things different. So you're the same person that you were before. And ⁓ for is real transformation. And that's what people say. They're like, I don't see it the same anymore. ⁓ You know, actually what's nice about the work we do is because people suddenly understand where their experience comes from. remember in that Santander program there was a piece of feedback that just really stuck with me which was, ⁓ a better leader, I'm better parent and I'm a better human. And so, know, that's transformation. That is someone who is really seeing differently and showing up to their team, to their children, to their partner and being a real role model in the organisation. ⁓ So, yeah, I think, know, Transformation is amazing when you get there, but I think companies to your point they they want it done in a millisecond and It you know that just that just isn't the case I actually think change isn't always difficult if you put the time in but that's what I think happens that companies Suddenly there's this urgency, know revenues down or our competitors are getting ahead of us and we have to make this switch and then they don't go through that process of helping people to understand where they're at and what it means for them and that's the kind of work that we do where you understand,

people understand their own thinking about it, just the communication but their own perspective on it ⁓ when you help them be okay with that then even people that we've worked with when they've exited the business they exit well, when they've stayed within the business they're less stressed, they're more productive you know we had this with one of our clients where ⁓ their own admission they wanted do transformation, they had it all set up, they were working with one of the big four we just kind of came in, ⁓ met them through the women known business company and ⁓ they saying, I love the sound of what you're doing but we're just so busy at the moment, we're in the middle of this transformation and I just don't know if we've got the time and I said well ⁓ you what I do helps people have more time because you slow down, you're less stressed ⁓ and will help you in ⁓ the run. So if you want to do a pilot let's do it. So they did a pilot and 22 people first had three coaching sessions of our unique people performance coaching and that went so well we've actually gone on and worked for years with that client through three of their transformations but what happened by their own admission in that first transformation is they hadn't looked at the kind of the hierarchical culture and so even though they wanted to give everyone this more accountability and be agile the mindset weren't unlocked to do that so what it meant is that everybody was suddenly across everything and everyone got way more stressed because nobody had real strict accountability and they were still experiencing all these bottlenecks so it really hadn't gone ⁓ well but at least the work we were able to do helped people deal with that and manage it because people can get so frustrated and then that doesn't help anyone to actually help with like let's put that to one side or let's understand where the frustration comes from. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Kay Tear: from and now if that's moved to the side, what is the right thing to do? What can you go out and do right now? And then people could just go and start creating the change that helps the team get back on track. Dave Stubberfield: That's amazing. I love the bit you mentioned there about kind of as a leader, as a human, as a parent. it's, love that kind of people sometimes see all of those three as different parts of their lives and they completely switched them off from one another. I remember an emotional intelligence quiz with a group and there was gentleman who was quite candid in why he answered certain questions. And I was like, ⁓ okay. ⁓ Are you like at home as well? Kay Tear: you Dave Stubberfield: And he went, ⁓ I thought we were looking at his through the lens of work. I was like, okay, so you're two different people. and you could be a third different type of person as well as a parent potentially. And that, and that for me is, is really, really interesting that people sometimes have kind of the segmented ways of being sometimes. that's really, really interesting. I think if you can unlock that, then that's where the real magic can happen sometimes, isn't it? Kay Tear: ⁓ ⁓ fact it reminds me of something you said earlier on when you were saying that ⁓ the leaders, ⁓ they've implemented something then of course they don't want to let go, you know it's their baby or they, you know again they don't want to lose face if something is seen now is not working and ⁓ us when we go really deep into the program, again we have, different levels of the programs that we do you can imagine but ⁓ we can really get into the identity ⁓ that's when people start to realize I'm wearing all this these masks you and when you can help them strip away that and get back to ⁓ a grounded sense of who they are and that they're not defined by these roles, ⁓ they're as a custodian in these roles, ⁓ if like, but it isn't them. And, you how do they want to show up? ⁓ What do want to do intentionally? ⁓ And that is such ⁓ easier place work from, a much more effortless, simple way of working ⁓ than constantly to try and be like this in this meeting and like this when I'm at home and constantly having these personas which is exhausting for people. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, totally. I totally agree with that. I'm just going to pivot slightly now, okay. So you are now a published author. ⁓ Can you tell us about the book? Kay Tear: I am. Thank you. Yes, ⁓ well there's two books actually. I've got my... Dave Stubberfield: ⁓ two. Kay Tear: my shelf. My one for work is overcoming imposter syndrome. Now ⁓ not just about imposter syndrome, it's ⁓ broader about this understanding of ⁓ do we understand where certain ⁓ things come from and in this case, you know, we're doing that through imposter syndrome. ⁓ just happened to be a topic that was just coming up so much and I was working with different organisations on. It's more common for women ⁓ at least that own up to it, although of course of men have come up to me as well and said no no I resonate with this but it looks at the cultural roots so the stories and the myths and really going back that historically so there's all these things that shape the way we think about ourselves and our work and then it explores what are called the pre-psychology paradigm which is what business reimagined is really grounded in that's what we help people understand where your experience comes from when you understand that you are typically less stressed so there's a real neuroscience approach to what we do we look at peak performance and flow so where are people's natural innate strengths and capabilities so things like resilience in the day I was always taught you you need to build resilience and these are the eight ways you build and I just don't believe that anymore you know I really think resilience is innate ⁓ ⁓ flow is innate and when we take people for our programs and they really see that for themselves ⁓ what you don't have to try being resilient any Dave

Stubberfield: Mm. Kay Tear: more. Wow, isn't that a weight off your mind? So yeah, that's overcome imposter syndrome. So really happy with some of the feedback that I've been getting from that. But the other book that I've got is Overcome Anxious Attachment. And that's the first book I wrote because actually this understanding is peak performance and pre-psychology understanding. Where it helps me more my relationships ⁓ having a real look at them and doing the ⁓ of the work to more grounded. in my kind of romantic relationships. yeah, that's the book I wrote first and that's actually, you know, selling pretty well. And I've got ⁓ a course that goes with that one as well from anxious to anchored. you know, just recently launched a business, which is lovereimagined.co.uk. So yeah, really happy about that because that's a bit of my heart calling for that one. I still love my organizational psychology work. I, you know, I've been doing that for over 20 years. is newer piece but ⁓ in coaching you the whole person ⁓ and often kind of touching on some of these pieces about being more grounded in their whole life ⁓ and for me it just felt like a really natural evolution. ⁓ Dave Stubberfield: Well, congratulations on both of the books. ⁓ Syndrome talks to me a lot. ⁓ suffer with that more than I care to admit sometimes. And very, very open. ⁓ But are just times, last week was a great example, I did a talk. The day there were some really, really big headline names doing keynotes. And then there's Little Old Me. I turn up I'm first in the day, so. Kay Tear: Thank you. Dave Stubberfield: I'm assuming that no one's gonna turn up and I shouldn't be here, I'm not worthy kind of thing. And that kind of stuff goes through my mind all the time. I think that resilience piece you kind of mentioned, I often ground myself and go, no, here are the reasons why you should be here. It's by fluke or luck or chance, there's a reason why you're here. So it's almost like having two voices on either shoulder for me sometimes, kind of just having a row with each other. But so that's good. Kay Tear: Yeah. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: great, Kay, and I'm glad that they're doing really well. So, Reimagined. You just mentioned it there. Brand new business you're setting up. How's it going? Kay Tear: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well it's very new, it's just hot off the press, it's just starting in the last couple of weeks, so just at start of March. I think it's going to be good thing. I say, not really ⁓ started too much yet, but I'm just getting ⁓ people that I'm talking to about that and to help them start seeing different ways of what using as three pillars. So one is the inside out understanding, which is also what we're using in the work context as well. The second one is about being emotionally grounded. So that's really important piece as well. then the last one's about being able to look at relationships in a much more neutral way. ⁓ again, ⁓ can imagine just in the way about anything, we have loads and loads of layers of thinking about ⁓ sort of subjects you can imagine really. ⁓ some people struggle more with that at work, you know, and you can have your own things about work. But for other people, I know just get themselves in knots about am I making the right decisions? ⁓ know, what's right for me? People lose themselves in relationships. So really being able to help people with that side is something that I'm really, really excited to be doing. Dave Stubberfield: Amazing, amazing. No, that's great, Kay. So two businesses on the run. So gotten for punishment, obviously. last time we caught up, you mentioned that kind of January and February just whizzed past and here we are mid-March already. The year is waiting around for absolutely nobody. How have you found the start of the year as ⁓ a multiple business owner now? Kay Tear: Hey. Mmm. Well, this year's been a different year because of starting Love Reimagined. So a lot of the stuff this year, I've been really focused on that. that's been going really well. And like I say, that's just launched. That's great. ⁓ I will be ⁓ a program to go with my Overcoming Post-Syndrome book as well, ⁓ although the work I typically do is business to business, ⁓ really want more people to understand this. You know, I think it's such a fundamental ⁓ and it just changed. people's lives. It's truly transformational you know and I see it you know every time we run these programs I see people having these insights and not because they've learned so much stuff it's because they see things differently and the power that we have when we see things differently is truly immense so yeah I definitely want to get that course going so that's really what I've been on this you know now I've got the books and got those finished and was really fortunate there to get a grant. which meant I was able to work on both of those and now next year or this year to be finishing both of the courses so that I can help more people you know and more of a kind of a grassroots level and try and get this inside out understanding in the world. Dave Stubberfield: Amazing, Now, Kay, you're a mum to a daughter. I think for me, these personal journeys that we go through help shape us as who we are as people, as leaders, business owners as well. So how old is your daughter and what's she up to? Kay Tear: Mm-hmm. she is nearly three and half. she's a cheeky little thing at the moment, full of sass. So a little bit too demanding. You don't know where she gets it from. ⁓ She says, need a fork now, mommy. know, we don't talk like that, Zara. So yeah, you know where she learned all these things from. But no, she's great. She loves to sing, ⁓ you know, loves to very active. I'm sure not as much as people that have boys, but ⁓ no, the singing ⁓ funny because she sings, Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Kay Tear: she's talking, you know, Mummy can I have some cornflakes, you know, it's just, she's always singing so, no, it's a real joy and I know,

God, you're in the thick of it as well with your three. Dave Stubberfield: Ha Yeah, absolutely. Yes, my little boy is coming up to the twins are nine months old now. it's scary. ⁓ time is just zooming and they're all learning so much as well. ⁓ I for me personally, I've kind of I've learned an element of of patience that I didn't know I had. ⁓ People say that I'm quite a patient person anyway. But I think ⁓ when a parent, you have this another level. Kay Tear: Yes. Yeah. Mm. Dave Stubberfield: of patience that you have to kind of develop as well because there's kind of the constant not listening and doing what they want. And it's just they can switch it on and off. If you say, do you want a snack? Oh, yes, please. Then we come to you with a kid. Come to the kitchen with you. But you tell them to stop doing something. It's I can't hear you right now. And I'm just going to choose to ignore you. And so you have to kind of sort of refocus. And again, for me, I take that back into training and workshops. I do the training. Kay Tear: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Bye. Dave Stubberfield: and workshops where you might have a group that are, I don't want to say disruptive, but they're in a conversation, could be about the content on the course or what we're talking about. But it could be just disruptive for the people around them. So you kind of want to bring them back in the room without coming across as the baddie. ⁓ kind of just want everyone to be on the same page. that for me has kind of helped how I approach different situations and scenarios now. Kay Tear: Bye. Mm. Mm-hmm. Dave Stubberfield: think I might have been a bit of a school teacher before and I'd just look at people and sort of stop talking. But I might do it differently. I think some of it comes subconsciously. Have you found any differences in the way you approach things now, your parents? Kay Tear: Well, I think you can't be a psychologist and have a baby and not to look at that through a psychologist's eyes, especially. study Developmental Psychology, it's one of the key kind of modules you do when you do a degree. And me, ⁓ what always struck by is how much she learns on her own. ⁓ this, it connects so much to the work I do now, which is we're taught struggle and keep learning and learn other people's methods ⁓ and focus that, you know. And we outsource our own intuition and understanding. And that's what we do. turn it around. ⁓ Dave Stubberfield: Mmm. Kay Tear: teaching any models, but if we clear everything away and you really think about this with a fresh pair of eyes or fresh perspective, you will see something new. And people always do, not sometimes, mean, always do. And that's like with her when just the amount she learns because, you know, at this age, she doesn't have that executive functioning, you know, the self-talk, the two people that you said having an argument when you your talk, but ⁓ develop that about age seven. So they don't. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Kay Tear: have that. So all they're doing is everything's new and they're taking everything in and absorbing it. And if we help people get back to that piece, which I think is more like our flow states, and the neuroscience has really caught up a lot and told us a lot about flow and just shows that our brain really settles down. And that's why flow states feel so good. We're just so absorbed in what we're doing. We so, you know, we lose track of time and we just have this absorption and this intrinsic motivation. And that's free as well. I try to say to everyone, you might pay for the course but the productivity gains you get are free and people can use it again and again and again. that's really what I just take, the wondrous how little we need to do as parents apart from obviously feed them but otherwise they're just off developing and growing and ⁓ words and yeah. Dave Stubberfield: That's really interesting. And it's taken me back to the talk I attended of yours. And we had to partner up and we had to talk about something from our childhood. ⁓ And that for me is kind of, I get that now. That's just kind of that light bulb has just gone off. ⁓ cool. And ⁓ are, ⁓ you are that child, you are free and you are learning and you're kind of on your own path at that point, aren't you? That's fascinating. ⁓ mean, that's blown my brain already. ⁓ Kay Tear: Yes. you Mmm, yeah. Dave Stubberfield: So thanks for that, okay. Okay, so we are a third of way through the year. Where do you want to be by the close of the year? What's the goal? What's the vision? Where do want to be? Kay Tear: Well, I'd like the two programmes. up and running and with a good number of people in those it's about learning but it's about conversation and I'd love more people to be learning this inside out understanding both to help themselves and their relationships and to help them at work and to drive better productivity gains at work. So they're my two big things this year. I really wanted to get the two courses finished and if I could get those done and a good round of insight and and people buying into that and enjoying the programme and getting value from it, then yeah, I'd be really happy. Dave Stubberfield: Okay, just as we wrap up, I've got some quick fire questions that I'd like to give you if that's okay. Okay, one habit that you won't compromise on. Kay Tear: Mm-hmm. Okay, yes, let's go. God. don't know, I never even think of myself as happy, I've had happy habits really, I'm really in the moment. Yeah, don't, yeah, wouldn't, there's not, yeah, there's not much I can even think of. What do people normally say? Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Yeah. Really interesting. Brilliant, that's good, that's good, that's a good answer. yeah Well, some people meditate, yes, but again, if you kind of, you're in the moment, then you're in the moment, you can't change that. Kay Tear: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm really in the moment to be honest most of the time. Dave Stubberfield: Really interesting. Okay, final one. One thing leaders don't talk about enough. Kay Tear: what's actually going on for someone else the way they see it. That's what I'd love to see. I think it's very assumed that we're all on the same page because we all know about X issue or what we're trying to achieve and what's going on in someone's inner world, journey they go to get there, that is hugely individual and if I can help leaders just ⁓ that in the people they speak to and actually it helps so much for customers as well, clients, so anyone that does those service related roles, you know, it's going to help at home, it's going to help at work, know, it's truly transformation. you. Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant, amazing. Okay, thank you so much. It's been great to have you on the podcast. ⁓ I really appreciate your time and I look forward to spending with you soon. Kay Tear: Thank you. Thanks Dave, I'll see you soon.