Transcription complète de [Preview] Xena (& Gabrielle) The Warrior Princess (with Sara Century)

I love writing about movies. 03:33.848 --> 03:37.469 [SPEAKER_04]: I have also done one about lesbian vampires Which don't come up today? 03:37.489 --> 03:57.517 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and then before that I get one on the screen franchise Which is going to get a new printing through microcosm some time around October I believe so fortunately some of them are getting published by other people I do still have copies of it with the original handmade cover So if anybody wants to pick those up go to my website. 03:57.537 --> 03:58.317 [SPEAKER_04]: You'll find the links 03:58.637 --> 04:07.401 [SPEAKER_04]: I do the Forgotten Five with Alex Segura, which is a superhero comic kind of independent style and we try to do long form storytelling with that. 04:07.421 --> 04:09.422 [SPEAKER_04]: So that's been kind of a wild ride. 04:09.442 --> 04:17.365 [SPEAKER_04]: We had to start with web comics because we weren't getting a ton of publisher interests that we found to be workable, like we want to do this long term. 04:17.685 --> 04:24.588 [SPEAKER_04]: And so finding anybody to like back a long term comic is not easy in 2020, so it's right, like you get five or like 04:27.569 --> 04:29.250 [SPEAKER_04]: So we were like, well we don't want to do that. 04:29.330 --> 04:31.771 [SPEAKER_04]: We want to get characters that people can actually invest in. 04:31.991 --> 04:32.451 [SPEAKER_04]: So we did. 04:32.551 --> 04:36.652 [SPEAKER_04]: So there's that that's patreon.com slash the forgotten five if you want to follow that. 04:36.692 --> 04:40.754 [SPEAKER_04]: And then of course I have the best issue ever podcast, which I'm sure you listen to this podcast. 04:53.716 --> 05:04.819 [SPEAKER_04]: You were on their talking about Wonder Woman as we mentioned, so there's those things and then there's a bunch of things besides I do photo video work, so I'm constantly working on projects. 05:04.879 --> 05:07.540 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm working on the documentary and then one of our I finished that. 05:07.600 --> 05:08.960 [SPEAKER_04]: I'm doing another documentary. 05:09.080 --> 05:10.780 [SPEAKER_04]: Those are like self-funded projects. 05:10.900 --> 05:19.683 [SPEAKER_04]: You can, if you live in the Midwest, hire me to do things that are paperwork, but I do a lot of personal projects too, just to keep my skills like raise a shot. 05:19.863 --> 05:20.983 [SPEAKER_04]: I have many skills. 05:21.463 --> 05:27.750 [SPEAKER_02]: And my rabbit is by my feet right now, so, I just, my feet, because she was just staring up at me. 05:27.810 --> 05:29.051 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, where are you talking about? 05:29.071 --> 05:30.813 [SPEAKER_04]: I have rabbit. 05:31.113 --> 05:33.536 [SPEAKER_01]: There's the idea of rabbits and a cat or two. 05:33.916 --> 05:36.118 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's all three cats and it's very lovely. 05:36.138 --> 05:42.025 [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to say, and there was also has been discussion of Zina Zina in the work someday. 05:42.485 --> 05:43.846 [SPEAKER_04]: you so much for bringing that up. 05:44.166 --> 05:45.807 [SPEAKER_04]: I forget the things that I'm doing. 05:45.947 --> 05:51.710 [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I'm doing a bunch of X-Men's Theons right now actually as well. 05:51.790 --> 05:54.292 [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm working on that and I've been doing a lot of research. 05:54.312 --> 05:56.893 [SPEAKER_04]: I've been bouncing between like three Z-ends. 05:57.013 --> 05:59.555 [SPEAKER_04]: So it's kind of hard to tell which one's going to be the next one. 05:59.575 --> 06:03.477 [SPEAKER_04]: The other one is like a Liz Taylor's Theon doesn't seem like the other's right. 06:04.818 --> 06:05.719 [SPEAKER_01]: I would like that one. 06:05.779 --> 06:06.500 [SPEAKER_01]: I would like that one. 06:06.520 --> 06:21.056 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was having a discussion in the other day about Elizabeth Taylor and just like the idea of her femininity and then the girlhood and then also the annoyingness, you know, just like she's very annoying and the same way the way that all like meshed up into this weird star persona. 06:21.196 --> 06:21.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 06:22.818 --> 06:23.579 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I love her. 06:23.599 --> 06:25.280 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and she gets so weird. 06:25.320 --> 06:44.833 [SPEAKER_04]: I think the thing with her is is that she was such a star that it is Her point like when she gets away from MGM and she's just making her own decisions She makes the wildest choices anybody has ever made like some of her movies one of our last few great stars Her easiest secret these really just came out there like after a while god bless her 06:45.413 --> 06:48.096 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, weird old movie is in the 70s. 06:48.136 --> 06:58.406 [SPEAKER_04]: You're just like lady, but I have a great time and actually I just got finished watching her in the Taming of the shrew which I had avoided for a long time because of obvious reasons perhaps. 06:58.426 --> 07:08.536 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I watched it and I was like she's so goddamn punk in this movie this rock So I don't know it's actually really good even times where I'm like, I don't know if I could watch that 07:08.716 --> 07:16.227 [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't even one of the lasse movies that she was in and I was just like as a child, she's clearly like incredible in everything she's in. 07:16.407 --> 07:18.190 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's not what we're just like magnetic. 07:18.270 --> 07:18.731 [SPEAKER_01]: I remember. 07:18.751 --> 07:23.918 [SPEAKER_01]: So we said, you took me to like the Hacksploitation kind of era of Betty Davis's three. 07:25.360 --> 07:27.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Truly troll John Crawford got bless you. 07:27.862 --> 07:34.085 [SPEAKER_01]: What does that movie she did like very late or wrong when she was just like an evil nanny It doesn't ring up. 07:34.125 --> 07:35.446 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a tongue in these movies. 07:35.486 --> 07:38.568 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like we did late or wrong in her career

That's when we're watching. 07:38.648 --> 07:48.333 [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I'll look into the notes at some point as an evil hag You like that was always really fun, but everybody got in on it almost we got a Shelley Winters Whoever slew on to you. 07:48.393 --> 07:50.114 [SPEAKER_04]: That's a really good stupid movie 07:51.635 --> 07:52.997 [SPEAKER_04]: Hexploitation is fun. 07:53.057 --> 08:00.483 [SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of people got one on his feet like Amy Madigan today is the contenter for the Oscar and that's a haxploitation film. 08:00.503 --> 08:01.484 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 08:01.945 --> 08:02.465 [SPEAKER_04]: That's right. 08:02.525 --> 08:05.448 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great one and she's fantastic in it and got down there. 08:05.508 --> 08:08.791 [SPEAKER_01]: Give a genre film and Oscar you won't, but it's fine. 08:10.152 --> 08:11.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, shout out to sinners. 08:11.613 --> 08:14.714 [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I don't know centers my god like what a movie. 08:14.754 --> 08:18.636 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm glad you're doing well I meant you were talking earlier about also how like you're moving house. 08:18.656 --> 08:24.458 [SPEAKER_01]: You're looking for a place to say Are you looking for a place and I am also similarly obliquing my boxes right now? 08:24.558 --> 08:25.699 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be moving home. 08:25.899 --> 08:32.621 [SPEAKER_01]: So you might be the last podcast that record before I move You're my gosh, I know you show if you hear in the sounds of the streets. 08:32.881 --> 08:34.402 [SPEAKER_01]: It's my house saying goodbye to all 08:38.242 --> 08:58.692 [SPEAKER_04]: I understand that stress everything just seems like all of a sudden it's up in the air and like I have to just find a way to make it make sense So I can totally It's hard because it's like people have done this before right like people do this, but it does get very difficult Especially when you have pets and stuff like I know you have a cat or I don't know if like Alaska a queen in LA 09:00.653 --> 09:08.815 [SPEAKER_04]: Um, but I think that it gets a little bit more difficult and you've got lives depending on you at that point So that makes it a little bit more stressful. 09:08.955 --> 09:16.057 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm just like trying to make sense of it the other day I almost had a breakdown because I have to figure out the council tax situation I was just like I don't know what this is. 09:16.257 --> 09:22.878 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how I did this before and I have to do it again I did eventually figure it out basically I just need to like call Victor who for this recording. 09:23.038 --> 09:27.019 [SPEAKER_01]: I have trapped in a seller somewhere to get him as far away from us as possible 09:30.641 --> 09:35.142 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just have to have him calm me down and be like, okay, this is how you do something like a human being. 09:35.162 --> 09:35.822 [SPEAKER_01]: You stupid stuff. 09:38.343 --> 09:44.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, though, I'm just watching Zena is at the moment, straddling bakas for those who don't know. 09:44.085 --> 09:53.547 [SPEAKER_01]: I decided to put on the free V TV Pluto TV station, which is airing Zena 247 and we're that a really weird point of season, I think, six. 09:53.827 --> 09:55.168 [SPEAKER_01]: or five or whatever it is. 09:55.408 --> 09:57.669 [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, interesting, Lucy Lawless cannot dance. 09:57.709 --> 09:58.509 [SPEAKER_01]: God bless her. 09:58.990 --> 09:59.690 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a gift. 09:59.870 --> 10:01.651 [SPEAKER_04]: And she doesn't have to. 10:01.871 --> 10:04.232 [SPEAKER_04]: They put her in a belly shirt and let her go. 10:04.392 --> 10:05.453 [SPEAKER_01]: That's all we did, really. 10:05.613 --> 10:18.900 [SPEAKER_01]: But okay, like we said earlier, you are here today, specifically to talk to me about Zina, the Warrior Princess, a television show that premiered in 1995, created by Rob Tappert and the Sam Ramey. 10:19.100 --> 10:21.761 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think later on, RJ, I want to say Stewart. 10:21.961 --> 10:24.083 [SPEAKER_01]: came on as executive steward. 10:24.223 --> 10:24.524 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 10:24.604 --> 10:36.676 [SPEAKER_01]: Are just steward came on as a executive producer and then it featured the talents of people like Naila Dixon who was a costumer and Liz Friedman who was a writer and just many many more. 10:36.876 --> 10:40.800 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of these names that I mentioned you might have heard of because they went on to 10:41.260 --> 10:44.903 [SPEAKER_01]: create a footprint in the film and television industry. 10:45.063 --> 10:54.432 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I digs in, obviously, as the customer who we might know from accepting and Oscar on stage for Lord of the Rings, the amount of people who loaded the wings, a pill for it from Zina. 10:54.452 --> 11:07.563 [SPEAKER_01]: I think there was something in the research of this, which I want to actually make sure to shout out just wanderings as Zina video, which was really helpful to get me like properly refresh on this series as I was preparing for this episode. 11:07.683 --> 11:16.095 [SPEAKER_01]: But it really like struck me the way the impact that the show has had on the industry and the way that it's really not credited for it. 11:16.256 --> 11:19.801 [SPEAKER_01]: But tell me before we get into all of that, what is your relationship with Zena? 11:19.841 --> 11:20.983 [SPEAKER_01]: Where did you come across it? 11:21.203 --> 11:22.465 [SPEAKER_01]: And what does it mean to you today? 11:22.665 --> 11:26.206 [SPEAKER_04]: So I would have been about 12 years old, one of Zena's first hit the air. 11:26.326 --> 11:36.650 [SPEAKER_04]: So at that time, I cannot emphasize enough how much there was not anything like it to Hercules is about as close as you would get, but that was obviously a very male centric show. 11:36.790 --> 11:39.471 [SPEAKER_04]: They even considered not doing a Zena show. 11:39.491

--> 11:43.612 [SPEAKER_04]: Their first pitch for a follow-up was Jason and the goddamned Argonauts. 11:43.752 --> 11:48.556 [SPEAKER_04]: can you believe how shitty the world would be if we had gotten that instead of Zina? 11:48.696 --> 11:50.437 [SPEAKER_04]: But Zina tested through the roof. 11:50.477 --> 11:55.582 [SPEAKER_04]: She was introduced to Hercules as a villain, so that was even a little bit earlier than I was 12. 11:55.642 --> 12:00.406 [SPEAKER_04]: I got to see that, but she was reintroduced via her own show. 12:00.726 --> 12:04.129 [SPEAKER_04]: And to me, I mean, I'm gay. 12:05.149 --> 12:07.111 [SPEAKER_04]: I think I should mention that right now. 12:07.131 --> 12:09.233 [SPEAKER_04]: Let's get that out of the way. 12:09.513 --> 12:24.378 [SPEAKER_01]: This is going to be a queer episode with a queer perspective on Zina and you're welcome because I had a look through the podcast archives And there's not many of that so here we go Seriously, I do wonder sometimes I'm like, uh, no, I don't know. 12:24.398 --> 12:37.883 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to go too far and be like, why are you Fodcasting about Zina my beloved Zina and it's just like well you should but I also am like yeah You would think that way more queer people would be the ones 12:38.283 --> 12:59.041 [SPEAKER_04]: Still covering it because most people who I know who have actually taken the time to watch Zina are queer people for sure That's kind of a bin diagram of my interest my friends interests and like yeah Network TV of the 90s, but is a groundbreaking show I think at this time it was I believe from what I remember This was like the highest drinking show. 12:59.101 --> 13:01.143 [SPEAKER_04]: I remember watching this in an interview 13:01.803 --> 13:04.306 [SPEAKER_04]: Like during the time it was some late night interview. 13:04.426 --> 13:18.058 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how true that is I've not been able to confirm it because kind of looking over TV records of that time is not super easy I guess yeah, yeah, but I would say that by the end of it's for a season It had overtaken her killies in the ratings. 13:18.158 --> 13:18.418 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 13:18.599 --> 13:19.459 [SPEAKER_01]: I saw like oh that was so 13:21.361 --> 13:23.642 [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin Sorbo that was a shot at you directly. 13:23.682 --> 13:27.324 [SPEAKER_04]: I just want you to know it's him off forever and now he's like this. 13:27.584 --> 13:30.226 [SPEAKER_01]: Surely it is the Insighted Incident. 13:30.346 --> 13:31.187 [SPEAKER_01]: It's so funny. 13:31.647 --> 13:33.188 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a story. 13:35.089 --> 13:35.770 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we've got it. 13:35.870 --> 13:38.491 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think for a while it was extremely successful. 13:38.511 --> 13:40.773 [SPEAKER_01]: At least for those first three seasons it was really up there in the ratings. 13:40.833 --> 13:42.033 [SPEAKER_01]: But I can't confirm that. 13:42.213 --> 13:44.415 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe future college will pop in here and tell you guys. 13:45.495 --> 13:58.882 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think at a certain point, it had overtaken Baywatch and that's huge and the 90s because that was globally like the most watch show for a really long time and you know those episodes are still available for you to watch today. 13:59.682 --> 14:01.784 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, they are very accessible. 14:01.924 --> 14:07.306 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Zena is I think extremely difficult to get a hold of and I really do wonder why that is. 14:12.309 --> 14:33.551 [SPEAKER_01]: And then it just sort of like seemed to have disappeared the closer we got now and it's really hard to track down I don't really know why that is I think there is like maybe we should get into this now because I think this is a good point to talk about like the legacy of Zina perhaps because I think something that was going to pick up on what you were saying is that it's the queer people in your circle who you know hold that show in reverence or have given it the chance today to watch it. 14:33.891 --> 14:44.214 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, as I was looking at just the research and all the writings about Zina, it was mainly like Zina took a place within queer academia that I think was really interesting. 14:44.254 --> 14:45.574 [SPEAKER_01]: That's working with pop culture studies. 14:45.654 --> 14:48.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Not show, remain being talked about to today. 14:48.275 --> 14:51.896 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's like a queer academic sort of band that's also like keeping that alive. 14:51.996 --> 14:57.338 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that there was a Zina conference I think last year, and a book was released collecting some of the work about that. 14:57.438 --> 14:57.658 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 14:57.798 --> 15:03.988 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting that has managed to maintain at a certain point when I was watching this season I was looking back at some of the things that I wrote down. 15:04.208 --> 15:10.458 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like wondering if the closest comparison I can make to Zena is obviously buffier. 15:11.368 --> 15:33.169 [SPEAKER_01]: But Buffy's position in the culture today is so very different than Zina, and I really wonder if that's because Buffy has more of a heterosexual bent to it, and if the queerness of Zina kind of took it out of contention, and also all the other kind of like sort of sandal camp signifiers had kind of like taken away from like these critics who are doing retrospectives about these TV shows. 15:33.269 --> 15:52.121 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know what you see like willing to forgive the camp of Buffy I guess like the kind of silly 90s camp that you see there But they don't seem to really be willing to extend that to Zina for the most part and I find that to be pretty silly because the camp is fun and like here's the thing about their show. 15:52.201 --> 15:52.781 [SPEAKER_04]: It's funny. 15:53.042 --> 15:55.083 [SPEAKER_04]: It pokes fun in itself all of the time

15:55.343 --> 16:01.649 [SPEAKER_04]: every chance it gets frankly like it has whole episodes that are just funny humor episodes. 16:01.909 --> 16:06.333 [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think that this is a show that takes itself seriously and I think that that's really nice. 16:06.553 --> 16:18.403 [SPEAKER_04]: It has very serious moments like overall, as much as it's kind of like a bleak subject matter because of this story of a woman who's committed atrocities and she must go on her redemption cycle. 16:18.823 --> 16:36.690 [SPEAKER_04]: It is also, it's more down to earth than that most of the time and I think that that's kind of what saves it I also think it's just honestly way more well made than people have ever given it credit for people say it's silly people say that it's cheesy I don't know that latter fight with coolest young bangs. 16:36.810 --> 16:44.093 [SPEAKER_04]: If you're watching wuxia films like why is this a deal breaker this stuff's fun like why Yeah, why don't you like 16:44.113 --> 16:45.954 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think it's a huge credit to Zeta. 16:46.234 --> 16:50.497 [SPEAKER_01]: This don't work in district as it exists today, largely exists because of Zena. 16:50.577 --> 16:57.381 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is something that people have directly credited to Zena, just because of the stunt work and the innovations of the fighting choreography. 16:57.582 --> 17:13.132 [SPEAKER_01]: And even like the shooting of that choreography and bringing all those techniques of Hong Kong push your films to the modern day, but then adapting them with more, like the Western filmmaking practices and creating something new, that had a ripple effect, that like the stunt actress, 17:14.012 --> 17:16.113 [SPEAKER_01]: and kill them, you know, and when I was working. 17:16.174 --> 17:18.255 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, truly revolutionized the industry. 17:18.355 --> 17:29.042 [SPEAKER_01]: Lord of the Rings would not have happened without Zena, aside from the fact that it was in New Zealand, a lot of the talent in Zena, which I think we referenced earlier, went on to Lord of the Rings to work on that project. 17:29.442 --> 17:37.908 [SPEAKER_01]: The impact that it has had, like the material, actual impact, I think is like really under-discussed, under-appreciate, under-recognized. 17:38.028 --> 17:53.377 [SPEAKER_04]: I think you're totally right that it's because there is such a strong queer read of them, and I think that, honestly, to this day, people are pretty uncomfortable with it, like they want to have, like, Buffy's attached to it, dude, like, throughout the entirety of Buffy. 17:53.457 --> 17:58.840 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's moments where she goes through break-ups, but she's never really single all that often. 17:58.900 --> 18:00.501 [SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't really happen. 18:00.902 --> 18:03.183 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like glimpses, but not for long. 18:03.503 --> 18:13.433 [SPEAKER_04]: And so she's kind of always connected to someone who in my opinion often is dragging her down like what else does Riley do but drag this woman down, right? 18:13.933 --> 18:17.757 [SPEAKER_04]: It's just kind of angel to put angel and then fucking to. 18:18.698 --> 18:25.525 [SPEAKER_04]: Angel who's like your 30 year old boyfriend, you know, like this just, it's all weird, but I mean, it's fine, whatever. 18:25.625 --> 18:30.870 [SPEAKER_04]: It's buffy and like I don't want to use this as an example to air the things that I don't like about buffy. 18:30.890 --> 18:38.057 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I do think that there's something about like the fact that even if you don't do a sapphic read of them. 18:38.357 --> 18:46.819 [SPEAKER_04]: you would have to say, well, this is like a very strong platonic relationship that takes precedence over a romantic relationship. 18:46.960 --> 18:52.921 [SPEAKER_04]: And then if you were going to read them as straight, they still don't give too much a fuck about the men, right? 18:53.041 --> 18:58.823 [SPEAKER_04]: So like, I think that all of those things kind of make them be too challenging for a lot of 18:58.943 --> 18:59.304 [SPEAKER_04]: people. 18:59.604 --> 19:02.107 [SPEAKER_04]: And I know that people would argue with me, right? 19:02.147 --> 19:17.687 [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's like if you said this and you were like you just don't like it because it's so gay Like people will argue with you, but it's like kind of I think you're right like I Did women and women like even if we take the gay thing I think like you were saying it's worth underlining that 19:18.027 --> 19:21.248 [SPEAKER_01]: which is that they're women, also, it's a story about two women. 19:21.388 --> 19:24.568 [SPEAKER_01]: They're at the center of every single episode, even one of those words. 19:24.748 --> 19:26.349 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, that's the center of story. 19:26.369 --> 19:30.750 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is something that people like to describe it or like to ignore, like to overlook. 19:30.990 --> 19:31.210 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 19:31.270 --> 19:42.792 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know where I actually picked this up, but there's a bit of a controversy apparently with a Zina community a few years back because there was a list of, I think lesbian romances, or queer female lead romances, 19:43.192 --> 19:55.198 [SPEAKER_01]: television and Zena was excluded from there and then the author made a note of that fact by saying Zena was excluded because they don't give credit to subtext or to writers who didn't have the balls to take it there. 19:55.278 --> 19:58.580 [SPEAKER_01]: This was obviously someone who didn't watch Zena, I think, I didn't understand this. 19:58.600 --> 20:08.124 [SPEAKER_04]: This is how I feel is I think that it's one of those things where people now couldn't possibly have the time even have the concept that subtext would be a necessary thing because there 20:09.945 --> 20:20.050 [SPEAKER_04]: on TV there were but literally you know you have like books that

will compile the queer characters they go back decades and decades to get a book links cover it's right. 20:20.090 --> 20:25.732 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll give you a be front-down actually right now this Zena came out nine years before the L word. 20:25.892 --> 20:26.072 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 20:26.092 --> 20:27.973 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to use that as like a metric? 20:28.133 --> 20:29.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Will you grace when does that believe? 20:29.774 --> 20:48.058 [SPEAKER_01]: Ellen coming out was I think three years after Zena and at the point Ellen was being blacklisted in the industry yeah then there was let me think I think the first on air female lesbian romantic kiss had happened in the early 90s I think about three or four years prior to Zena 20:48.398 --> 20:50.520 [SPEAKER_01]: on, I want to say LA Law or LA District. 20:50.880 --> 20:52.941 [SPEAKER_01]: There was also, I forget what it is. 20:53.122 --> 20:54.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Rosanne. 20:54.282 --> 20:55.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Rosanne happened. 20:55.303 --> 21:03.429 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe Mary Rosanne was a scene where Rosanne was kissing another woman and that episode aired with a disclaimer to audiences. 21:03.589 --> 21:06.111 [SPEAKER_01]: Two, three years before Zena ever came on air. 21:06.311 --> 21:09.334 [SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't just that there were no queer characters. 21:09.514 --> 21:10.375 [SPEAKER_01]: They were not allowed. 21:10.935 --> 21:13.357 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no queerness allowed on television. 21:13.377 --> 21:14.878 [SPEAKER_01]: That was like a censorship thing. 21:15.338 --> 21:30.905 [SPEAKER_04]: importantly Liz Friedman is out lesbian and was at the time and so you have somebody who's working behind the scenes and you also have script writers who if not queer themselves were very very receptive and embracing of the queer subjects. 21:31.065 --> 21:40.670 [SPEAKER_04]: So I think that that's all important because I think people go, oh, well, it's not actually gay and it's just like, it is though, like, I don't know. 21:40.690 --> 21:45.672 [SPEAKER_04]: I have a hard time with that people will give me shit and be like, oh, it's so subtextual. 21:45.893 --> 21:56.958 [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, how subtextual is the ring where literally Zina has to save Gabrielle's life by kissing her and like waking her up as if her prints, right? 22:00.540 --> 22:01.841 [SPEAKER_01]: They have a soulmate theme. 22:01.921 --> 22:05.784 [SPEAKER_04]: They're literally talking about, I mean, A they always take baths together. 22:05.804 --> 22:09.848 [SPEAKER_04]: There's many jokes if there's no heterosexual explanation for this. 22:10.268 --> 22:10.708 [SPEAKER_04]: Agreed. 22:10.948 --> 22:17.173 [SPEAKER_04]: But there's also just like so much to the relationship that it's like at a certain point. 22:17.354 --> 22:18.555 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the Sappho. 22:18.655 --> 22:20.556 [SPEAKER_04]: Zina goes, I have to get Gabrielle. 22:20.676 --> 22:22.918 [SPEAKER_04]: This poem from Sappho for her birthday. 22:22.958 --> 22:24.239 [SPEAKER_04]: It's her favorite poem. 22:24.279 --> 22:25.680 [SPEAKER_04]: I had Sappho jazz up and down for you. 22:25.760 --> 22:26.321 [SPEAKER_03]: That's Sappho. 22:26.701 --> 22:28.141 [SPEAKER_03]: For me, I believe in Cena. 22:28.302 --> 22:39.245 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a moment when I look at you and no speech has left in me my tongue breaks Then fire races under my skin and I tremble and grow pale brim dying of such love Result seeds. 22:39.285 --> 22:40.785 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that's not it. 22:40.825 --> 22:46.587 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't even like attempting to just come across close to the line to titulate It never felt like that to me. 22:46.627 --> 22:56.310 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that maybe because of the trappings of the show as a fantasy sci-fi during the early 90s women were being dressed to be palatable for the male gaze a lot of the show was being shot through the male game 22:56.530 --> 23:06.440 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think in the history of the show, there has been only two women directors, maybe three and all of its episodes, you know, it's not coming for the time on the, but yeah. 23:06.581 --> 23:07.922 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we were talking about this earlier. 23:07.942 --> 23:11.626 [SPEAKER_01]: Like there is a lot of things happening in the Zena's stew that can be read as problematic. 23:11.746 --> 23:23.230 [SPEAKER_01]: But I always resist that idea of subtext as not being as valid as main text, especially because given the restrictions of the time, this is the only way the story could exist in this way. 23:23.430 --> 23:34.393 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just think of it as like a revolutionary feat to be able to do it in a way where like you have managed to make the romantic aspect of these two's relationship in arguable without tripping the censors. 23:34.553 --> 23:36.314 [SPEAKER_01]: There's something truly artful about that. 23:36.394 --> 23:42.458 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is coming for me as a perspective from someone who comes from a specific culture where the censorship is so heavy, though. 23:42.478 --> 23:45.981 [SPEAKER_01]: The subtext and queer relationships is non-existent. 23:46.021 --> 23:48.422 [SPEAKER_01]: The subtext in our media is non-existent. 23:48.442 --> 23:50.784 [SPEAKER_01]: So I see how artful the management of it is. 23:50.924 --> 23:52.045 [SPEAKER_01]: I see that as almost a feature. 23:52.165 --> 23:53.307 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, it's wild. 23:53.367 --> 24:07.226 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, okay, so like it's problematic to watch things before the year 2000 or something like I don't quite understand what the point of that is I also find it to be really strange because of its incredible influence. 24:07.666 --> 24:27.730 [SPEAKER_04]: on slash thick and like fan fiction and how that series that affair between those two really comes to life in fan fiction you know you get to see so much of their relationship and so

whenever I was a kid I'd watch Zena obviously and then I would read a lot of this fan fiction often it's very erotic but not always 24:28.070 --> 24:31.472 [SPEAKER_04]: But as a young queer person, what the hell else was there for me, right? 24:31.592 --> 24:34.994 [SPEAKER_04]: So there is this incredible gateway that this series opened. 24:35.214 --> 24:39.356 [SPEAKER_04]: I often don't really know how to separate myself entirely from this series. 24:39.436 --> 24:46.400 [SPEAKER_04]: It's like finding the X-Men where it's like, I don't really know who I'd be now if I didn't love this so much, right? 24:46.440 --> 24:48.661 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I loved it so much as a kid. 24:48.741 --> 24:53.363 [SPEAKER_04]: Whenever I was struggling to have hope or anything in my life, right? 24:53.444 --> 24:56.045 [SPEAKER_04]: So finding stuff like this was really important. 24:56.245 --> 25:08.187 [SPEAKER_04]: That's why I always find it to be strange when people are just like, oh, but it's all subtext and it's just like, I don't know that it is gang like we're going to talk about some real gay shit like this. 25:08.327 --> 25:10.448 [SPEAKER_01]: I think let's talk about that again. 25:10.588 --> 25:21.430 [SPEAKER_01]: I think because like what you were saying really describes, I think how much of service Xena was for the queer community, because like this is one way that you met other queer women, you know? 25:21.530 --> 25:21.870 [SPEAKER_01]: You were even 25:22.030 --> 25:23.631 [SPEAKER_04]: that they existed at all. 25:23.651 --> 25:29.115 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, I had been living in rural Missouri and then I was living in Fort Collins, Colorado. 25:29.135 --> 25:39.001 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Fort Collins is a bigger city now than it was, but like, these were not happening places where people weren't going to hate crime, you're asked, you know? 25:39.041 --> 25:44.385 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, and I know that we have a lot of similar problems and different problems today, right? 25:44.445 --> 25:50.349 [SPEAKER_04]: But it's also just like the fact that we collectively kind of know that queer people exist, 25:50.589 --> 25:50.789 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 25:50.809 --> 25:53.570 [SPEAKER_04]: But doesn't I totally different realm than where I was at? 25:53.650 --> 25:54.170 [SPEAKER_04]: It's a good. 25:54.210 --> 25:54.431 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 25:54.611 --> 25:56.251 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a shift in paradigm. 25:56.271 --> 25:59.753 [SPEAKER_01]: People, I think, talk mockingly about the quote-unquote glee effect, which I do. 25:59.913 --> 26:00.533 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a thing. 26:00.593 --> 26:04.114 [SPEAKER_01]: But like that list, it's, you know, the world was different before. 26:04.154 --> 26:04.815 [SPEAKER_01]: Willing grace. 26:04.835 --> 26:06.015 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was different before. 26:06.055 --> 26:06.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Glee people did it. 26:06.816 --> 26:07.976 [SPEAKER_01]: No creepy people existed. 26:08.196 --> 26:12.618 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no language for it, there was no imagination for it. 26:12.718 --> 26:15.939 [SPEAKER_01]: So something like Xenop performs such a great service. 26:15.999 --> 26:19.840 [SPEAKER_01]: And also like physically, materially, there were xenoconventions, you know. 26:20.200 --> 26:23.521 [SPEAKER_01]: This was a culture that spawned a fan of that was extremely fervent. 26:24.081 --> 26:28.403 [SPEAKER_01]: And that also wanted to connect with one another because of the queerness of it. 26:28.503 --> 26:32.764 [SPEAKER_01]: And it established queer communities truly physically to this day. 26:33.044 --> 26:34.525 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a feat that 26:34.945 --> 26:38.866 [SPEAKER_01]: not many other TV shows period can say they achieved that. 26:38.906 --> 26:41.267 [SPEAKER_01]: That is something you can say start corrected that, right? 26:41.467 --> 26:45.848 [SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe Star Wars kind of did that, but like that's not something that happens. 26:46.528 --> 26:47.308 [SPEAKER_04]: I totally agree. 26:47.328 --> 26:51.149 [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I think the Zena doesn't get the credit it deserves. 26:51.349 --> 26:54.530 [SPEAKER_04]: I just also think it's really well scripted for the most part. 26:54.630 --> 26:54.990 [SPEAKER_04]: People that 26:55.090 --> 26:59.011 [SPEAKER_04]: and they don't give it any credit for that either, but the dialogue's incredible. 26:59.111 --> 27:08.755 [SPEAKER_04]: There are so many lines that these two speak that either just stay with me forever because of how heart felt they are, or because of how silly and funny they are. 27:08.855 --> 27:11.716 [SPEAKER_04]: Like there's just so many quotable moments in this show. 27:12.076 --> 27:12.896 [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know. 27:12.996 --> 27:21.419 [SPEAKER_04]: I do always find it kind of rough that people don't show it more affection just based on the fact that A, I have so much affection for this show. 27:21.539 --> 27:23.040 [SPEAKER_04]: Like, I'm carrying a lot. 27:23.920 --> 27:25.261 [SPEAKER_04]: for everybody on that. 27:25.401 --> 27:26.822 [SPEAKER_01]: Affection, it is good. 27:27.062 --> 27:37.489 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I also, I just want to make a point when you mentioned the writing, it may be think about how another, I think, big feature of the show is where it occupies, just in terms of the context of the time in television. 27:37.649 --> 27:48.136 [SPEAKER_01]: It starts off as a non-serialized, almost just episode of the week monster of the week show that ends up turning into one that incorporates a serialized long-form storyline. 27:48.337 --> 27:53.260 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was in response to the shift of the culture of television where that was starting to happen. 27:53.680 --> 28:09.510 [SPEAKER_01]: media and so you can see it also adapting and changing itself as part of that evolution and tv and I think yeah it straddles that boundary in the history of television so it makes for like a really fascinating

case when you see how like the writer has managed to shape their story in their world to like the new format of the medium 28:09.590 --> 28:27.916 [SPEAKER_04]: Totally the way that they did syndication was unheard of like this was all whole new realm as far as TV went They made these shows and then they were like go ahead and license them from us So local networks would individually license them and so they'd have something to fill certain hours of TV Which is why you can watch this? 28:27.916 --> 28:30.618 [SPEAKER_04]: xenon Saturdays or like whatever, right? 28:30.758 --> 28:33.340 [SPEAKER_04]: So that kind of syndication was brand new too. 28:33.440 --> 28:45.450 [SPEAKER_04]: People all of a sudden in really once again rural areas could access this TV series that normally would have been on something like USA or TNT, something you needed like a cable subscription for. 28:45.970 --> 28:52.554 [SPEAKER_04]: So like weirdly again, like as a really, really poor kid, like this was something that actually was accessible to me. 28:52.754 --> 29:00.058 [SPEAKER_04]: And it's impossible for me to even put full words to how influential this was in my life. 29:00.258 --> 29:01.258 [SPEAKER_04]: Like I loved this. 29:01.358 --> 29:02.779 [SPEAKER_04]: I still love this today. 29:02.959 --> 29:13.945 [SPEAKER_04]: You know, we can engage with a lot of the complicated aspects of it, but it never makes me not love the show because I think you've mentioned how really kind of peer-hearted it is for the most part. 29:14.285 --> 29:28.509 [SPEAKER_04]: I would say that there's certain exceptions, but for the most part, overwhelmingly, this is like a show about redemption and helping other people and even like the problematic moment seems more like stumbling blocks for the most part again. 29:28.669 --> 29:30.170 [SPEAKER_04]: There's some exceptions to that. 29:30.350 --> 29:31.130 [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't know. 29:31.230 --> 29:37.392 [SPEAKER_04]: It's something that I feel like I'm always willing to work out with this show and be like, why didn't you question this the first time you saw it? 29:37.552 --> 29:40.593 [SPEAKER_04]: Are you questioning enough now in like things along those lines? 29:40.913 --> 29:57.850 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think earlier I was talking about the India arc specifically in the show and because there's an episode that calls the controversy and my specific approach towards what I was watching it where I just found myself not being cynical about it not being kind of mean in my reaction towards it. 29:57.970 --> 29:59.030 [SPEAKER_01]: I could see the problems. 29:59.210 --> 30:00.391 [SPEAKER_01]: I could think about the problems. 30:00.451 --> 30:01.611 [SPEAKER_01]: I could see where they came from. 30:01.731 --> 30:07.474 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think because there's something about the show where I understand it has like a very almost humanist undercurrent throughout it. 30:07.634 --> 30:14.776 [SPEAKER_01]: The well-intentioned aspect of it makes me kind of want to receive the moments where it dips into problematic aspects. 30:15.236 --> 30:17.737 [SPEAKER_01]: And makes me actually think about how they're trying to engage with it. 30:17.797 --> 30:19.558 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it always feels like they're trying to engage with it. 30:19.578 --> 30:21.859 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, with an open heart and with the idea of learning. 30:22.059 --> 30:22.299 [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. 30:22.479 --> 30:28.584 [SPEAKER_01]: That's something like very commendable because I'll tell you someone who I guess is a pop culture enthusiast and critic. 30:28.744 --> 30:32.367 [SPEAKER_01]: I end up watching a lot of things that are gleefully problematic. 30:32.547 --> 30:41.814 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if we want to bring up friends, friends was gleefully problematic towards trans people, towards gay people, early on, also like slightly antagonistic towards black people. 30:41.974 --> 30:49.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And I say that because I just recently read a story where Gabrielle Union had publicly talked about how the friends' writers took a front. 30:49.164 --> 30:58.916 [SPEAKER_01]: See something she said, noting the lack of black characters and friends by going back into the scripts and trying to highlight every time a black character spoke on the show, just to show her, like, no, it's me. 31:00.078 --> 31:18.743 [SPEAKER_01]: like that was, you know, and like, there was like a gleeful, almost antagonism in those shows that I don't really get in Zina, where Zina feels like even when it went to India and Vishnu popped up and like all that stuff, it felt like it was trying to engage with it and like to like show people what this culture is and like the beauty of it. 31:18.903 --> 31:19.703 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'm sympathetic.