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With bootlegs in the internet and Kramps fans being as intense as they are, it's amazing the gravest gravy tracks didn't find themselves on the internet.
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It's just the fact that Lux and Ivy are very private people and kept stuff to themselves.
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And Alex Chilton uh didn't exactly trust people, so he's not like sending out cassettes to people.
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Pretty intense guy.
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And that's kind of the reason you have that.
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Stephanie Chernikowski, the great photographer, who did the cover for Gravest Gravy, she introduced the cramps to Alex Chilton.
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And from uh all reports, he saw them and was immediately obsessed.
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He just went, wow, that's the band.
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And I I could see how someone would come to that conclusion after seeing the cramps.
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They both had a lot of heroes in common.
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Rockabilly, Sun Records, and Alex Chilton knows a thing or two about Memphis, so I'm sure the conversation between he ID and Lux were probably pretty animated immediately.
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You know, this got Charlie Feathers and Hazel Atkins, and on and on and on, they probably all speak that patois.
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And when he said, let's go to Memphis and record, they probably all went, We just won the lottery.
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And so it came together.
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What the Kramps probably didn't know, that maybe no one knew, maybe Alex knew, was how damn good it was gonna work.
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Like, you know, you hear the human fly record.
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You know, that's the first time I heard the cramps was the song Human Fly, and everything changed for me.
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And I had heard the Clash and The Damned and and and but I heard the cramps, and I was like, oh, and to this day, I put on that song and my the hair on my arm stands up.
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It still moves me as sheer genius and right band, right producer.
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And I think in any any other hands, cramp songs would sound like good rock and roll, but with Alex Chilton, he got them to where they could be.
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And every once in a while, the right producer meets the right band.
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Not often, not often as should happen, but sometimes it just happens, and that the cramps never sound, I'm not saying they weren't as good, but they never sounded the same way again after Alex Chilton.
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Like the next record, Psychedel Jungle.
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It's great, it's just a different, whole different thing.
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I love that record.
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Um, but the the cramps in Alex Chilton, it's as good as anything the cramps ever did, and as good as anything Alex Chilton ever did.
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Both entities found themselves at their best.
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In the cramps, you almost see like the fulfillment of the Alex Chilton idea in a really unique way that you don't get that a lot with other artists, you know what I mean?
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Yeah, and he probably couldn't even make his own records sound so what was that?
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How do you make sense of Punk's role in the cultural moment?
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What is it that makes this such an area of interest for people to this day?
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The music is good.
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You know, some of these bands, they got it right.
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It's not that rare.
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I mean, there's a lot of good bands, that's why a lot of people have a lot of records in their record collection.
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It's just not just the Beatles and three other bands.
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There's a bunch of good music.
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If a young person said to me, Ah, you're old and I don't care about your the music you like, I would just say rumble young man rumble.
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I mean, I I I I I couldn't argue that point.
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Like, why not?
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Like, why not just leave it behind?
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I think he's missing out.
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But I can't argue with youth.
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But as far as young people being interested in these bands, I go two ways on that.
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I think a young person should be hearing everything from the bad brains to Bob Dylan to Duke Ellington.
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They're young, they have the time, they should put their phones down and like listen to music and and hear this great stuff.
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On the other hand, why not know Elvis Beatles or the Rolling Stones?
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Yeah.
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And just get on with bands that you can go see in the summer at a show and put them up at your house and have friends for life.
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It's hard to not be young anymore.
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Yeah.
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And you know, you you're not old, but you're not 18.
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Oh, no.
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And I'm old.
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And and some days, you know, everything hurts.
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And you're like, uh, and like everything takes longer, and you get those envelopes in the mail, like, welcome to Medicare.
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You know, you're it is what it is.
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I mean, it's just, you know, here comes death.
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Load full transcript
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And I can understand a person not necessarily feeling old.
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Like, I listen to the music I grew up with, it still sounds good to me.
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Yeah.
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You know, I'm still an angry person.
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But I think to go back and retread, as I I once said to Ian, I said a lot of these bands, they become uh battle reenactors.
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Yeah.
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Where they go out and do music, and everyone's like, yay! Like, well, the first time we went out and did it, we all got beat up.
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And now we do it, and everyone, you know, has their girlfriends on their shoulders and everyone's like waving their arms, and it's all kumbaya.
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Because you're reenacting the civil war, no one's gonna get hurt.
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But it was wartime music, and so now you're in a way making fun out of it, and you're everyone's play acting.
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We're showing up for the thing from back in the day, and the artists are getting paid, and I don't mind that because maybe no one paid him the first time around.
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I mean it's just something that I wouldn't want to do, and I wouldn't want to necessarily go see it.
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I know what you mean.
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I wanted to return back to the topic, the subject of Alex Chilton, because you put out one of my favorite Chilton detours, which is his Cubist Blues record with uh Ben Vaughn and Alan Vega.
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That's like one of the killer, such a killer, one-of-a-kind, like fucked up record.
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And uh, I would just love to hear you talk about what Alex was like as a creator.
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Well, you know, there's moments on that record, the song Freedom, his guitar playing on that'll make you cry.
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I mean, it's just some of his best work, I think, is on that record.
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And Ben and Alex, they love Alan Vega, and it was, I think, Ben's idea.
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He told me this years ago.
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They just said, We're gonna we're gonna reserve the studio time.
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Like uh DeSal, I think they were at in New York.
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And they said, We're just gonna call up Alan and just drag him in here.
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And Alan is ready to go do an improv or an art thing, like at the drop of a hat.
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Like he just already has lyrics in his head, he just goes.
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He's he was really something, he was the real thing.
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And I think they just said, Hey, we're down here, so jump in a cab.
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And Alan Vegas shows up and they do this like one-of-a-kind, you know, bunch of improvs, and that they all land on their feet, every track lands on its feet beautifully.
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And I think you just have three really original artists who are just in simpatico on that evening.
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Because all three of them could probably be pretty argumentative in a different environment, especially Alex Chilton.
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And so Alan and his wife Liz played me that record.
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I was at their apartment, and they said, What do you reckon?
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I went, Whoa! Like, who's putting it out?
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Like, well, it's you know, a small label in Europe, but what about America?
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Well, no one seems to care.
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I go, I'll put that out right now.
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And so I had to get into it with Chilton about publishing.
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You know, like how do we pay you?
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You know, like uh we have to do all that all that kind of unfund legalese.
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You gotta do it right.
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So Liz gave me his phone number.
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She basically said, Good luck.
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I I don't know the guy.
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I know of him.
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And so she said, he's you know, he's not the he's not Mr.
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Warmth.
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So I called him and I said, you know, hello sirs, you know, Henry.
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I'm I need to get this information.
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And he it was like a big pain in his neck that I wanted to pay him.
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And he goes, So what are you doing?
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And why he asked me, I don't know.
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I said, I'm in New York City, I'm trying to write lyrics for an album.
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And he goes, uh, that'll take at least an hour.
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And I, you know, not for me.
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Um and I went, yeah, I I guess.
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And he went, is there anything else?
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I went, no, and he just hung up.
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And then a year or so later, I'm on tour at some European festival.
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Things over.
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Next morning we're all in the hotel lobby, all these bands waiting to leave.
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And there's Alex Chilton in the lobby.
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And I know I know what he looks like.
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He probably doesn't know what I look like.
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And so I sit down at a couch adjacent from him, and I'm thinking, do I approach?
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Hey, I'm Alan's friend.
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You know, I'm the guy we had we talked on the phone, and every pore of his body seemed to radiate.
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Do not approach.
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So I said, I don't need the aggravation, you know, I have enough going on, and I just left him alone.
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He's like he was like a rattlesnake coiled on a couch.
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Yeah.
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Do it.
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Hello, working with easy partners has brought Gravest Gravy uh to fans.
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Also brought a lot of actually licensed merch.
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The first time that Ivy is getting paid for Cramps merch in some time.
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Yeah, in a while, yeah.
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So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that tension, because certainly you must have some great bootleg LPs at the very least.
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Yeah, and I've written about it and I've thought about it.
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Um, I draw the line like cloth.
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Like don't make respect.
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Don't make fake t-shirts of a band.
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Like just you'll get a job.
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Because I I I I can get a real t-shirt from the band, or in the case of the cramps, not for for a while.
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Sure.
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And thankfully, thankfully that's been rectified.
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Um, and they've done a great job, and every apparently everyone's happy, people dig the merch, and like that's great.
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Yeah, I buy a lot of bootleg vinyl.
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Uh like Joy Division, the Kramps, like both bands, there's a lot of bootlegs out there, and I I hope I have them all.
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It's not for lack of trying.
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Um I'm two ways about that.
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The bands aren't getting paid for those specific records, but if you're a fan of the cramps for Joy Division, you have all of the the record records anyway.
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You just want more, and why not?
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And so the cramps, you know, someone puts out like the two radio broadcasts as a double album.
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I'm in, like it sounds great.
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And maybe someone, you know, at someone some band's management might say, well, let's talk to that broadcasting company, do a licensing deal and put the real version out and tell the bootleggers to go pound sand.
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And so with the cramps, uh uh the they're just a fiercely loved band.
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Like you hear human fly, and someone said, There's 10 more songs, like well, then stop talking and put the record on.
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Like you want more.
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And so I and I'm one of those people.
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I want to hear all of it, and so I understand why a bootlegger would heed the call.
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I just think there's two kinds of bootlegs.
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One's made by fans for fans, and that's where you see great liner notes.
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They went for the best quality playback, they got they stole a really good photo.
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Uh you know, it would look like gravest gravy.
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Right.
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You know, it would just look like someone cared.
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Right.
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And then there's the people who are just trying to make money, they get dates wrong, song titles wrong, songs are cut off.
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And like you you just came for my money.
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I I'm at the altar of rock and roll, and you're burning me.
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Like, whoa, I thought we're all friendly.
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That's just outright theft.
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Yeah.
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The only t-shirts I've bought recently was uh Sleep, the band Sleep.
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Sure.
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I I buy uh Sleep Shirts and I bought uh it was volume four, Sabbath, but it was LAMF Johnny Thunders and The Heartbreaker.
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So it's a bit of a mashup.
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I saw it on eBay, like 18 bucks.
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Like I because I I wear I wear black shirts so people don't look at me.
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So I wanna don't want to attract attention to myself, but I I couldn't not because I love that album and I love Johnny Thunders.
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And it's a bootleg.
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So I I fed the beast.
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I'm so sorry.
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How do you do you dig the new sleep album?
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Yes.
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Um I wrote the press release.
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Uh they uh Al uh Al texted me not 10 minutes before you and I got together.
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Wow.
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Um They're on tour, he's sending me photos.
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It was his birthday yesterday, so he sent me photos of the the birthday cake the band made him with an image of Tony Iomi on it.
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I said it's too good to eat, but eat it anyway.
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It's cake.
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Um apparently the tour's going great, and he wrote me months and months ago.
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He said, We I've changed the lineup, and he told me, and he said, keep it to yourself.
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And that was I I did, of course.
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I'm good at keeping secrets.
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But I talked to Ian Mackay every Sunday, and you know, we we grew up with Bubba, and the fact that I couldn't tell Ian, like, because he would, you know, like wow, Bubba from Void is at sleep.
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I just thought it was like one of the coolest ideas.
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You know, that's usually written on the back of a bar napkin, like dream lineup of sleep if you can't have, and and you would be like, get Bubba, no way, do it.
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And it happened.
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And the records, I like the record very much.
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Um, and they got a ton of tour dates, man.
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They're really going for it.
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And it was kind of gutsy to bring in two new members and keep calling it sleep.
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And on the online, I you know, people push back, and you know, all those people have their have their say.
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But you the sleep name, it was just a lot of years in the making, and I I guess that's just Aldous wanted to, that's the decision he made.
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And I don't know how much the band is talking about the old lineup and why things changed.
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Uh, I'll let them speak to that.
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Uh, I've been told everything.
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Um, it's not my band.
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And so whatever's out there is what should be, and I'm not sure what's out there.
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Uh so I'll just let the band speak for themselves.
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Uh, a gutsy move, an amazing choice with Bubba.
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You know, Dale's a no-brainer.
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It's Dale Crover.
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I mean.
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I mean, come well, that that's like that's that's done.
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You know what I think?
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That's fine.
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And Bubba is just this fascinating choice.
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I never would have come up with that in a million years.
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You're like, get out of here! That's nuts! And I you know, I love sleep.
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I love that band.
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Before I let you go, I wanted to ask you, we're doing an event here on October 13th.
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Flipper is gonna play and they're gonna do an art exhibit.
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It's one of the best bands ever.
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Uh, many years ago, I was I was in the band Black Flag, and we would play San Francisco a lot, because it was right up the coast, and we played there almost like we were a local band.
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We were up there all the time, and always a great audience, and we would always see if Flipper wanted to open.
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We liked Flipper, and Flipper was to us like Flipper is to everybody, you know, kind of cool, kinda not.
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And so we you know, we put them on the bill, they're getting paid, and they would go out on stage, like, yeah, black flag coming on after us.
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What a bunch of rock stars.
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All they play is heavy metal now.
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They suck everywhere on the side of the stage laughing, you know, because we're there watching the show and they're just ripping us.
00:15:58.879 --> 00:15:59.840
And we're like, okay.
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:07.120
Or they like, hey, well, we just found this guy, he plays saxophone, and suddenly there's a guy on stage blowing into the microphone, driving everyone out of the venue.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:14.720
Like one night I think they played like I'm the wheel for like 45 minutes, and the crowd's like, okay, because you can.
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.720
And after the show's over, like, we'll see you guys next time.
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.240
Like, yeah, I guess.
00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:20.879
Maybe.
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.720
And one time we were in front of Target uh studio.
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:38.399
I think we we overnighted there, we like slept on the soundstage, and for some reason Flipper was there, and Greg Ginn and Chuck Dekowski, they are SST Records, and they're trying to see if they Flipper wants to sign to SST.
00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:42.559
And I forget like who was just ripping on him.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:44.159
Maybe it was Bruce Luce.
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:49.200
Like, why would we want to be on SST with all and they just ripped into it?
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:50.159
Just brutal.
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.000
And at the same time, it's funny.
00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:55.360
Like, we want to be on a band with a label, some heavy metal band?
00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:56.960
Like, are you kidding?
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:03.759
We're all laughing as they're just slicing and dicing Greg and Chuck.
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:05.039
We're just like taking it.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.880
It is just part of the you you you dare to speak to Flipper.
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:11.039
What did you think was going to happen?
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.400
It makes the Chilton situation sound positively uh speachy.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.640
It's it's fun, yeah, it's funny.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:23.119
You know, because you know they mean it, but the way they're doing it, you can't get angry.
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:25.680
I got to see Flipper a bunch of times.
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:32.559
I saw Flipper when I was fresh out of high school when uh the the Teen Idols Ian's band was in uh San Francisco.
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:40.319
We saw we saw Flipper when we only had heard one song of theirs, Earthworm, on that subterranean seven-inch compilation.
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:46.880
Like they have more songs, and it was you know, they were you didn't know what it was, it was incredible.
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.880
And then got this, you know, the the single started coming out, and you're like, okay.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.759
And then we met Jello Biafra, who's like their biggest fan.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.960
He said, just like whenever you can see them, go see Flipper.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:58.000
Of course we did.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.400
But I I've never seen a bad flipper show.
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:08.319
Like, even when they're trying to you know break the audience into pieces, it just there's just nothing like that.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:09.200
They're amazing.
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:10.319
Oh, that's great.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:10.960
That's great.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:18.480
Um, well, Henry, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about record collecting and all this other stuff, and it's always been cool to get to pick your mind.
00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.119
Thanks for doing it.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:19.920
Oh, no problem.
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.200
I'll see you down the road, I hope.
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:22.640
See you down the road.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:31.920
The cramps gravest gravy is available now from Hello Merch and EasyPartners, as well as in the Red Records.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:37.920
You can also find officially licensed Cramps, Tees, and more at Hello Merch.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.400
Help keep Ivy in the green.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:48.960
Find more from our guest at henryrolls.com and find more stories from us at publicrecords.online.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.559
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