TRANSCRIPTION 🔗
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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Stories
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podcast. I'm Andrew Glessner. In this episode, I'm
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joined by theoretical physicist, cosmologist,
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and author Paul Davies
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to discuss
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amongst other things his new book, quantum two
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point o, the past, present, and future of
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quantum physics.
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Paul is a regents professor at Arizona State
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University where he directs the Beyond Center for
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Fundamental Concepts in Science, a place as he
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puts it for cool stuff. I have to
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say I agree with him on that and
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you will when we talk about that very
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shortly. But it tackles everything from the nature
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of time and consciousness
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to the origins of life and the universe
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itself.
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We're gonna explore what he calls the next
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great quantum revolution,
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quantum computing,
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teleportation,
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cryptography,
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and sensing.
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Along the way, we'll discuss why Schrodinger's equation
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remains so central and how quantum ideas are
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reshaping not just technology, but art, and what
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might happen when quantum information science meets artificial
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intelligence.
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From teleporting particles
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to the ethical challenges of AI and even
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quantum jazz, it's a wide ranging conversation,
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and I began by asking him about the
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Beyond Center for Fundamental Concepts in Science.
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I went to ASU
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in 2006,
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with a mission that,
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had a budget behind it, provided by the
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university president who's a great visionary.
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And the idea was to set up a
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center which is, small in terms of numbers
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of people, but big in terms of its
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agenda,
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to,
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dwell on foundational questions in in science across
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all the sciences.
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My profession is really
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physics,
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astrophysics, cosmology.
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But I've also
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worked in astrobiology,
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it's now now called,
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which touches on the problem, the origin of
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life, where physics and chemistry turns into biology,
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and the nature of consciousness,
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the nature of time, the origin of the
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universe,
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the place of human beings in the great
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cosmic scheme of things, you know, all of
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these sort of profound questions. The way I
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like to put it is that,
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it's really
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a center for cool stuff.
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So whatever people seem to be talking about
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at dinner parties, and at the moment, it
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seems to largely be AI, and is it
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intelligent, and is it conscious, and all those
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things, you know, we we pitch in, and
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we we do that. We have,
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a sort of in house research program, which
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is a subset of all the things I've
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mentioned, but we hold workshops,
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on
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anything that's pushing the boundaries.
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So if there's a subject that's struggling to
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get out,
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and, for example, quantum biology,
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is there such a thing? Can we take
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it seriously?
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That things like that, we like to zero
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in on and bring people together and say,
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well, can we turn this into a
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a proper discipline? Can we create
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research
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projects and collaborations
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based upon,
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deliberations over the last two or three days?
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So that's that's how we'd like to operate.
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And we used to do about six a
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year,
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because I did a lot of cancer research.
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And so,
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four of these were funded by
Load full transcript
the National
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Cancer Institute.
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We used to push
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ideas,
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new ideas about the nature and origin of
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cancer.
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That, program was wound up, and so we're
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down to about two a year now, maybe
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three.
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How often does the the quantum
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realm of science, if you like,
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come into those discussions?
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I suppose with the workshops,
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it's always hard to avoid saying something quantum
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because, of course, it permits all of science,
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really. But those that focus specifically
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on quantum questions,
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probably only about, you know, one in five,
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maybe even less than that. As a matter
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of fact, I'm
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planning one in, April, which will be on,
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whether it often goes under the name of,
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biophotons.
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Living tissues emit photons,
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it turns out. No controversy anymore about that.
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Low a very low level specific
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frequency photons.
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What do they do? You say is it
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just a
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concomitant
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process
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that goes along with something basic like metabolism,
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or is there a signaling function? And is
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there anything sort of seriously quantum about it,
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like sub quasonian
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statistics or,
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coherence or something. It's all, wide open. So
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we as a matter of fact, our next
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one will be very much in this sort
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of quantum area. Amazing. Okay. So I have
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in front of me a book which is
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called, Quantum two point o, the past, present,
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and future of quantum physics.
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I've been delving deep into it and enjoying
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it. But could you tell me well, tell
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everyone, what what is quantum two point o?
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So I think,
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it it won't have escaped people's attention
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that quantum mechanics has, pervaded,
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pretty much all of science and technology. It's
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the most successful scientific theory,
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in history, and it's a 100 years old
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this year because,
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depending a little bit on what you go
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back to. But if you go back to,
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Erwin Schrodinger's
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work and his famous equation
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and Heisenberg's
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work, then it's just about a 100 years
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ago.
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And, it's given us all sorts of familiar
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things like the laser and the transistor and
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superconductors,
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and it explains electronics and AI and all
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these things people are familiar with.
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But,
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the at rock bottom, this is a theory
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that makes,
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no sense. So after a hundred years of
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extraordinary success,
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physicists are still squabbling over what it all
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means. Now this is, has a new twist
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now because some of the,
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what used to be called thought experiments, which
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were devised decades ago to try and sort
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of drill down into the philosophical
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aspects of this subject,
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the nature of reality at a quantum level,
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those experiments have been done
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and have been turned into a resource that
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can be used, for next great quantum leap
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forward,
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which, I'm calling quantum two point o. That
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seems to be a fairly universal description,
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but a more formal description
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is quantum information science.
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So we're familiar with the fact that quantum
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gadgets like computers
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process information,
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but they do it in a rather crude
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way. The gates and switches, and they're on
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and off and so on. And
with a
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quantum computer,
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what you do is embed the information in
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the quantum degrees of freedom itself. So that's
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possible to manipulate individual photons and electrons
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and sculpt
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wave functions, quantum states,
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to order. It's possible to,
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carry out,
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some amazing new things. So I just mentioned
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quantum computing about this quantum teleportation,
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quantum cryptography,
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and a whole area of quantum sensing,
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which is commercially,
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burgeoning at the moment.
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So we're we're on the cusp of this
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next great quantum
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revolution where we go beyond just using,
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the quantum properties of matter,
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for technology.
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We're now being able to
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apply it to the concept of information itself,
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and that's very exciting. And
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we'll give a further twist to the whole
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question about what does it mean and how
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can we make sense of a world,
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in which
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quantum mechanics with all its weirdness,
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seems to pervade not just
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technology,
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but the whole of human society now. We're
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feeling the effects of this technology,
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pretty much everything we do.
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You you mentioned
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Schrodinger earlier, and I I get the impression
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from reading the book that may I mean,
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I don't wanna put words in your mouth,
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but maybe,
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you feel like his
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contributions might have been more important.
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Should should we be celebrating one hundred years
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next year if you see what I mean?
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It's true. The Schrodinger's equation,
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was published in January
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1926.
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And so, we could say that is the
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real centenary. But, of course, the work was
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done in, 1925,
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and, Heisenberg's
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effort was also in 1925. And UNESCO declared
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2025
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to be, the
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official
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centenary, the year of quantum science and technology.
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So it's it's always hard to know with
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huge developments in science exactly when to open
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the champagne.
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Yeah. Okay. But you think Schrodinger's,
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equation is
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more instrumental, should we say? Well, it it
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really is the starting point. If you're teaching
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quantum mechanics,
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what you do is you,
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say, here is the equation that you must
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use, and students often want to know, well,
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where did that come from?
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And that whole backstory is fascinating in its
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own way. But, usually, that's the starting point.
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And then you solve it for,
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you know, fairly simple minded
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situations like, the square well potential and the
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harmonic oscillator and the hydrogen atom and so
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on. And you very soon find
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that Schrodinger's equation gives you,
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a very powerful way of explaining
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the properties of atoms and subatomic particles and,
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molecules and so on. And it's it's the
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way in which you do,
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practical
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quantum mechanics, the applications
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of quantum mechanics.
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Now you can,
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take a step back and say, well, what
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does it really mean, and how should we
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understand it in a more abstract way?
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And it's true that a lot of cutting
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edge research
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really goes beyond
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Schrodinger's equation as a practical tool.
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And,
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we
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define
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vectors in infinite dimensional spaces and
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various sorts of algebras to apply to them
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and theorems approved about those and so on.
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So you don't have to work with something
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00:10:31,495 --> 00:10:33,754
that seems sort of intuitive like a wave.
281
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You can,
282
00:10:35,254 --> 00:10:36,870
have this more abstract approach.
283
00:10:37,429 --> 00:10:39,589
But I think the starting point really for
284
00:10:39,589 --> 00:10:41,769
almost all students and the starting point historically
285
00:10:42,309 --> 00:10:45,350
was that equation. So I I've been reading
286
00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:46,009
the book,
287
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:48,789
you know, in stolen moments around my my
288
00:10:48,789 --> 00:10:49,529
day job.
289
00:10:49,945 --> 00:10:52,065
And everybody who sees me not everybody. Lots
290
00:10:52,065 --> 00:10:53,625
of people who see me reading the book
291
00:10:53,625 --> 00:10:55,945
say, oh, quantum physics. That's really fast. I
292
00:10:55,945 --> 00:10:58,445
don't understand that at all. That's really interesting.
293
00:11:00,424 --> 00:11:02,664
That's quite a common thing. I don't understand
294
00:11:02,664 --> 00:11:03,544
it. It's really interesting.
295
00:11:04,629 --> 00:11:06,149
Why why did you want to write this
296
00:11:06,149 --> 00:11:08,149
book? Because there are other books on quantum
297
00:11:08,149 --> 00:11:09,909
physics. Right? So what what does this one
298
00:11:09,909 --> 00:11:11,909
bring to the table that the others don't?
299
00:11:11,909 --> 00:11:13,350
You have to look at my career. I
300
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:16,485
think this is my 30 book, actually, if
301
00:11:16,485 --> 00:11:18,725
you depending on how you count, some are
302
00:11:18,725 --> 00:11:19,465
co authored.
303
00:11:22,085 --> 00:11:24,004
And, many years ago, I wrote a book
304
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called Quantum Fields in Curved Space. It's a
305
00:11:26,404 --> 00:11:28,899
quantum field theory, an aspect of,
306
00:11:29,460 --> 00:11:32,519
applied to gravitational systems, aspect of quantum gravity.
307
00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:35,060
I read a textbook called quantum mechanics based
308
00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:35,560
on,
309
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:37,399
a course that I,
310
00:11:37,779 --> 00:11:38,440
I taught.
311
00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:40,920
And then in all these other books,
312
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the
313
00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:46,075
you have to deal with quantum physics in
314
00:11:46,075 --> 00:11:47,595
some sense. So if you're talking write a
315
00:11:47,595 --> 00:11:49,714
book on cosmology or black holes or whatever
316
00:11:49,714 --> 00:11:51,134
it is, inevitably,
317
00:11:52,154 --> 00:11:52,654
quantum
318
00:11:53,035 --> 00:11:54,794
mechanics is going to come in. And if
319
00:11:54,794 --> 00:11:56,315
you look back at those books as, you
320
00:11:56,315 --> 00:11:58,399
know, a
chapter or a few sections or
321
00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:00,580
something in which I hurriedly go through,
322
00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:02,799
well, these are the basics that you need
323
00:12:02,799 --> 00:12:04,740
to understand this particular narrative.
324
00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:06,820
But I have never
325
00:12:07,759 --> 00:12:08,259
really,
326
00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:10,720
at least not for many many decades, sat
327
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,615
down and tried to pull it all together
328
00:12:12,615 --> 00:12:14,774
as a subject, as a particular subject. And
329
00:12:14,774 --> 00:12:17,274
the centenary seemed like a very obvious time
330
00:12:17,575 --> 00:12:19,195
to do that, but also because
331
00:12:19,975 --> 00:12:22,535
it now I think, the word quantum is
332
00:12:22,535 --> 00:12:24,535
on everybody's lips. You you you work on
333
00:12:24,535 --> 00:12:26,475
a newspaper if anyone does that anymore.
334
00:12:27,029 --> 00:12:28,950
But the, you know, the news feeds are
335
00:12:28,950 --> 00:12:30,789
full of quantum. There's some quantum there. And
336
00:12:30,789 --> 00:12:33,370
this is largely this quantum two part data,
337
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:35,370
the the whole quantum information
338
00:12:35,830 --> 00:12:37,450
revolution that's taking place.
339
00:12:37,909 --> 00:12:41,110
It's the sentiment going into it. Governments are,
340
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:42,884
backing it, and
341
00:12:43,504 --> 00:12:44,565
it start dominating
342
00:12:45,985 --> 00:12:47,024
research, in,
343
00:12:47,664 --> 00:12:50,065
across a range of of disciplines. So it
344
00:12:50,065 --> 00:12:52,144
just seemed to me that this was a
345
00:12:52,144 --> 00:12:54,144
very opportune time. But I didn't wanna write
346
00:12:54,144 --> 00:12:56,720
a book just about, well, quantum mechanics is
347
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,399
great and it's given us all this technology,
348
00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:00,319
and now it's gonna give us more. I
349
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,399
my real interest is in, well, what does
350
00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,259
it all mean? How do we make sense
351
00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:05,379
of this theory
352
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,839
that says, you know, deep down among atoms
353
00:13:07,839 --> 00:13:10,404
and molecules, there isn't anything quite like
354
00:13:10,945 --> 00:13:13,125
a real world in the everyday sense.
355
00:13:13,504 --> 00:13:15,504
And so how is it that we can
356
00:13:15,504 --> 00:13:17,524
probe or investigate this fuzzy,
357
00:13:18,065 --> 00:13:18,565
uncertain,
358
00:13:19,184 --> 00:13:20,965
weird quantum realm
359
00:13:21,664 --> 00:13:22,164
and
360
00:13:22,465 --> 00:13:25,629
get answers that can be communicated between you
361
00:13:25,629 --> 00:13:27,629
and me. You know, did has the atom
362
00:13:27,629 --> 00:13:30,509
decayed? Yes. I heard that that that Geiger
363
00:13:30,509 --> 00:13:32,589
counter got click. You know, we can we
364
00:13:32,589 -->
00:13:34,289
can do that. We can,
365
00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:35,490
investigate
366
00:13:37,065 --> 00:13:40,024
with technology, investigate what is happening at the
367
00:13:40,024 --> 00:13:41,725
atomic and subatomic realm,
368
00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:42,924
and then
369
00:13:43,304 --> 00:13:45,304
make sense of it in the everyday world.
370
00:13:45,304 --> 00:13:46,365
But patching together
371
00:13:47,304 --> 00:13:48,044
the reality,
372
00:13:48,504 --> 00:13:50,490
the fuzzy reality of the
373
00:13:51,049 --> 00:13:53,629
subatomic world with the everyday reality,
374
00:13:54,889 --> 00:13:56,190
of tables and chairs,
375
00:13:56,649 --> 00:13:59,610
is is unfinished business. And there's a dozen
376
00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:01,850
or so, different proposals for how we should
377
00:14:01,850 --> 00:14:03,049
do that. Who do you think,
378
00:14:03,769 --> 00:14:05,235
who do you want to read the book?
379
00:14:05,315 --> 00:14:07,075
Right? If you if you could pick a
380
00:14:07,075 --> 00:14:09,315
particular section of society to read the book,
381
00:14:09,315 --> 00:14:10,214
who would it be?
382
00:14:11,315 --> 00:14:12,834
Well, you know, this is,
383
00:14:13,554 --> 00:14:15,495
what used to be called the the proverbial
384
00:14:15,794 --> 00:14:18,375
layman. That's somewhat sexist term.
385
00:14:18,834 --> 00:14:19,975
But this would be
386
00:14:20,549 --> 00:14:21,049
someone
387
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:22,250
not necessarily,
388
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:25,110
with a thorough knowledge of physics, but it
389
00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:26,070
would be someone used to,
390
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:31,269
science and the scientific method and and,
391
00:14:32,654 --> 00:14:34,975
have some sort of background in thinking about
392
00:14:34,975 --> 00:14:37,714
science, but an interest in the deep philosophical
393
00:14:38,254 --> 00:14:39,714
aspects. So it would certainly
394
00:14:40,095 --> 00:14:40,914
appeal to
395
00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:44,195
philosophy students or or people,
396
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:45,000
with,
397
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,779
in everyday pre professions who are interested
398
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,720
in the big questions of existence. And I've
399
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,560
always written about those, the things like the
400
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,800
origin of the universe, nature of time, nature
401
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:56,379
of consciousness.
402
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,835
And quantum physics touches on all of those
403
00:14:59,995 --> 00:15:01,535
areas, and that they're all
404
00:15:01,995 --> 00:15:03,835
referred to in the book. I have sections
405
00:15:03,835 --> 00:15:04,894
on all of those things.
406
00:15:05,835 --> 00:15:08,154
And so, I, you know, I hope this
407
00:15:08,154 --> 00:15:10,254
appeals to a rather broad range of people.
408
00:15:10,315 --> 00:15:12,394
But what I didn't wanna do was just,
409
00:15:12,394 --> 00:15:13,995
you know, another book
on, well, what does
410
00:15:13,995 --> 00:15:16,490
quantum mechanics all mean? I wanted to write
411
00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:16,990
about,
412
00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:20,570
this extraordinary effort that is now going into
413
00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:22,330
quantum two point zero, that all of this
414
00:15:22,330 --> 00:15:22,830
technology
415
00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:26,029
are really dazzling technology. And some of this
416
00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:28,250
is really just sort of on the age
417
00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:30,110
of of doability,
418
00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:32,424
things like quantum teleportation,
419
00:15:33,125 --> 00:15:35,125
you know, can be done. Is it going
420
00:15:35,125 --> 00:15:37,044
to be turned into a practical tool for,
421
00:15:37,044 --> 00:15:39,684
like, a quantum Internet? Well, my university has
422
00:15:39,684 --> 00:15:42,245
a whole lot of people beavering away to
423
00:15:42,245 --> 00:15:45,240
try to, understand that. It's a silly question
424
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,839
really because I don't think the answer is
425
00:15:46,839 --> 00:15:49,320
there. But but how quantum teleportation, tell me
426
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,919
how soon in terms of that,
427
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,720
computing aspect of it, how soon is that
428
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,779
gonna be a reality?
429
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,419
Right. Well, I think when people talk about
430
00:15:57,904 --> 00:15:59,985
teleportation, they think of Star Trek and Beam
431
00:15:59,985 --> 00:16:01,125
Me Up, Scotty,
432
00:16:01,425 --> 00:16:02,465
and all that stuff.
433
00:16:02,945 --> 00:16:05,024
What does it mean? It means sending something
434
00:16:05,024 --> 00:16:06,865
from a to b without passing through the
435
00:16:06,865 --> 00:16:07,845
space in between.
436
00:16:08,785 --> 00:16:09,285
And,
437
00:16:09,665 --> 00:16:10,710
you can do that
438
00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:11,690
in
439
00:16:12,149 --> 00:16:13,129
quantum systems,
440
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:14,889
with a great deal of care.
441
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:17,450
And you do it by using a property,
442
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:20,889
of quantum systems called entanglement. And this goes
443
00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:23,670
right back to the culture wars of the
444
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:25,294
nineteen thirties because,
445
00:16:26,315 --> 00:16:28,875
one of the people who kicked quantum theory
446
00:16:28,875 --> 00:16:30,254
off, Albert Einstein,
447
00:16:31,034 --> 00:16:33,195
never really liked it. In fact, he,
448
00:16:33,754 --> 00:16:35,835
was impeccably opposed to it, and the more
449
00:16:35,835 --> 00:16:37,195
it became developed, the,
450
00:16:37,914 --> 00:16:39,375
more of a skeptic he was.
451
00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:40,659
And
452
00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:42,959
the rest of the community got behind it,
453
00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:45,220
and in particular, Niels Bohr was the great
454
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:45,860
champion
455
00:16:46,319 -->
00:16:47,919
of what we might think of as the
456
00:16:47,919 --> 00:16:50,899
orthodox or textbook view, sometimes called the Copenhagen
457
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:52,819
view of quantum mechanics.
458
00:16:53,714 --> 00:16:54,995
And the two of them would,
459
00:16:55,554 --> 00:16:58,595
bicker at conferences, and Einstein was always trying
460
00:16:58,595 --> 00:17:02,034
to find flaws in quantum mechanics with thought
461
00:17:02,034 --> 00:17:03,875
experiments, which say, well, this can't be right
462
00:17:03,875 --> 00:17:05,875
because if we did this and, measured that
463
00:17:05,875 --> 00:17:07,769
and so on, we get an absurd answer.
464
00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:09,450
And he cooked up one of these in
465
00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:10,670
1935,
466
00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:12,109
and,
467
00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:14,430
it involves two particles
468
00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:15,390
which,
469
00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:17,630
fly apart from a common origin,
470
00:17:18,009 --> 00:17:20,509
and, each is separately investigated,
471
00:17:21,125 --> 00:17:22,805
maybe on opposite sides of the lab or
472
00:17:22,805 --> 00:17:25,285
even opposite sides of the galaxy. And so,
473
00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:26,424
you will have,
474
00:17:27,205 --> 00:17:30,005
a proverbial physicist called Alice and Bob, and
475
00:17:30,005 --> 00:17:32,565
Alice will measure her particle, and Bob will
476
00:17:32,565 --> 00:17:33,625
measure his particle.
477
00:17:34,180 --> 00:17:36,420
And it's very clear from the formalism of
478
00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:38,599
quantum mechanics that what happens,
479
00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:41,059
in Alice's lab and what happens in Bob's
480
00:17:41,059 --> 00:17:41,559
lab,
481
00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:45,400
are linked in some sort of, peculiar telepathic
482
00:17:45,539 --> 00:17:47,984
manner. That means that there is a degree
483
00:17:47,984 --> 00:17:50,464
of correlation in what they find over and
484
00:17:50,464 --> 00:17:50,964
above
485
00:17:51,265 --> 00:17:52,724
what could possibly exist,
486
00:17:53,424 --> 00:17:55,924
if these particles had all along
487
00:17:56,625 --> 00:17:59,265
possessed the properties that they are measured. So
488
00:17:59,265 --> 00:18:01,419
this goes to the heart of what, quantum
489
00:18:01,419 --> 00:18:03,039
mechanics is about. So Einstein
490
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:04,000
hoped
491
00:18:04,779 --> 00:18:05,279
that,
492
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,819
beneath the quantum realm of uncertainty and fuzziness,
493
00:18:09,819 --> 00:18:11,679
there was a sort of more rational
494
00:18:12,059 --> 00:18:13,184
classical world.
495
00:18:14,225 --> 00:18:16,404
When you make a measurement in quantum mechanics,
496
00:18:16,545 --> 00:18:17,765
according to the Copenhagen
497
00:18:18,065 --> 00:18:21,105
view, the official view, you don't uncover a
498
00:18:21,105 --> 00:18:22,325
preexisting reality.
499
00:18:23,585 --> 00:18:26,785
You create that reality or the specific aspects
500
00:18:26,785 --> 00:18:28,465
of that reality by the very act of
501
00:18:28,465 --> 00:18:28,965
measurement.
502
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:30,630
And you see Einstein,
503
00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:33,410
didn't like that. So he when the particles
504
00:18:33,410 --> 00:18:35,890
fired apart, he wanted them to already have
505
00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:37,109
well defined properties,
506
00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:39,650
and that Alice and Bob merely discovered what
507
00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:41,809
those properties were. But it turns out when
508
00:18:41,809 --> 00:18:43,490
you actually do the real experiment, which you
509
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:44,835
didn't have until the nineteen eighties,
510
00:18:45,554 --> 00:18:47,095
but Einstein was wrong,
511
00:18:47,554 --> 00:18:48,934
that it is the case,
512
00:18:49,634 --> 00:18:51,654
that, the these
513
00:18:52,835 --> 00:18:55,734
correlated particles that we're now calling entangled entangled
514
00:18:55,794 --> 00:18:56,294
particles,
515
00:18:58,355 --> 00:19:00,294
possess a degree of linkage,
516
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,380
a sort of telepathic linkage that could not
517
00:19:03,759 --> 00:19:05,380
be explained if they
518
00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:08,400
were born originally or emerge from a common
519
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,079
origin with well defined properties in advance. The
520
00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:13,679
only way you get around that is having
521
00:19:13,679 --> 00:19:14,894
some faster than light
522
00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:18,174
communication, because Einstein didn't want that because of
523
00:19:18,174 --> 00:19:19,474
his theory of relativity.
524
00:19:20,815 --> 00:19:22,434
So this thing called entanglement
525
00:19:23,055 --> 00:19:25,535
is now the resource that, it it's not
526
00:19:25,535 --> 00:19:26,515
just a matter of
527
00:19:27,214 --> 00:19:27,714
testing
528
00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:31,210
this, dispute between Einstein and Bohr, which was
529
00:19:31,210 --> 00:19:32,190
original motivation.
530
00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:33,549
It's now a resource
531
00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:36,490
that can be exploited in technology. One of
532
00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:39,070
the exploitations is in this teleportation,
533
00:19:40,090 --> 00:19:40,785
that if,
534
00:19:41,744 --> 00:19:43,365
the a third person, Charlie,
535
00:19:44,144 --> 00:19:46,465
sends an entangled pair of particles to Alice
536
00:19:46,465 --> 00:19:49,205
and Bob, they can Alice can manipulate,
537
00:19:50,625 --> 00:19:53,984
her entangled particle with the information she wants
538
00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:54,644
to send.
539
00:19:55,259 --> 00:19:55,660
And,
540
00:19:56,059 --> 00:19:58,140
Bob will then be able to recover that
541
00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:00,700
information at the other end without it actually
542
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,700
being transmitted down any sort of,
543
00:20:03,259 --> 00:20:05,119
opt optical fiber or anything.
544
00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:08,325
And, there's a there's a caveat there that
545
00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:10,424
in order for that to happen,
546
00:20:11,284 --> 00:20:11,765
Alice,
547
00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:14,085
and Bob have to communicate the old fashioned
548
00:20:14,085 --> 00:20:15,384
way, say, with the telephone,
549
00:20:15,924 --> 00:20:18,005
to give some instructions about who measured what
550
00:20:18,005 --> 00:20:18,505
when.
551
00:20:18,964 --> 00:20:21,450
So you can't use this to send information
552
00:20:21,509 --> 00:20:23,750
faster than light. There's a common misconception that
553
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:24,970
entanglement does
554
00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:28,009
enable faster than light communication. It doesn't.
555
00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:30,009
But it does mean,
556
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:31,049
that,
557
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:32,090
you can
558
00:20:33,345 --> 00:20:36,005
transmit and I'm talking not about transmitting,
559
00:20:36,704 --> 00:20:38,644
Captain Kirk. I'm talking about
560
00:20:39,265 --> 00:20:39,765
transmitting,
561
00:20:40,384 --> 00:20:42,704
you know, one qubit of information. The qubit
562
00:20:42,704 --> 00:20:44,244
does for quantum
563
00:20:44,785 --> 00:20:47,660
information sounds what the bit does for conventional,
564
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:48,940
computing.
565
00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:51,480
And so you can transmit a key bit.
566
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,039
It's been done. Now Paul went on to
567
00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:57,080
explain how these quantum experiments could translate into
568
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,580
a real world game changing technology
569
00:21:00,664 --> 00:21:02,365
or the quantum Internet.
570
00:21:02,904 --> 00:21:05,384
It's a fascinating area, but I really want
571
00:21:05,384 --> 00:21:07,224
you to read that section of the book.
572
00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:09,144
And if you do read no other bit,
573
00:21:09,144 --> 00:21:11,884
just delve into that. It's really fascinating area.
574
00:21:11,944 --> 00:21:14,250
Anyway, back to the conversation with Paul. So
575
00:21:14,329 --> 00:21:16,569
I think we've, you know, quantum information technology,
576
00:21:16,569 --> 00:21:18,809
quantum two point o has really got these,
577
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:20,430
three legs. We've got,
578
00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:21,630
quantum,
579
00:21:22,569 --> 00:21:23,069
computing
580
00:21:23,609 --> 00:21:26,109
is the one we hear all about. Then
581
00:21:26,170 --> 00:21:27,789
the whole of the sort of quantum
582
00:21:28,365 --> 00:21:28,865
cryptography
583
00:21:29,404 --> 00:21:29,884
and,
584
00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:33,904
Internet and, tele population and then quantum sensing.
585
00:21:34,125 --> 00:21:35,884
And I think in terms of can I
586
00:21:35,884 --> 00:21:38,365
go out and buy a quantum gizmo that's
587
00:21:38,365 --> 00:21:39,025
going to,
588
00:21:39,724 --> 00:21:41,505
increase the profit in my company,
589
00:21:41,849 --> 00:21:43,450
The answer is yes? There are a lot
590
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:46,569
of quantum sensors, being used and being developed.
591
00:21:46,569 --> 00:21:48,410
So that's the field that is really moving
592
00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,069
fast in the commercial space. But we hear
593
00:21:51,130 --> 00:21:53,609
more, I think, about quantum computing because some
594
00:21:53,609 --> 00:21:55,369
of the big players like Google and so
595
00:21:55,369 --> 00:21:55,694
on
596
00:21:56,335 --> 00:21:57,474
are involved in that.
597
00:21:58,815 --> 00:21:59,054
I'd
598
00:21:59,694 --> 00:22:01,454
that has just reminded me,
599
00:22:01,855 --> 00:22:03,294
of something I was reading about in your
600
00:22:03,294 --> 00:22:05,375
book, which did worry me, to be honest,
601
00:22:05,375 --> 00:22:06,355
which was about,
602
00:22:07,615 --> 00:22:11,019
AI and quantum computers. So this goes right
603
00:22:11,019 --> 00:22:13,500
to the heart of the weirdness of quantum
604
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:14,880
mechanics and its mismatch
605
00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:18,220
with daily experience. So in daily life, we
606
00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:19,660
think that there's a real world out there,
607
00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:21,660
and it's in a well defined state. And
608
00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:22,710
and that seems to,
609
00:22:23,515 --> 00:22:26,554
work well enough, to to navigate human life.
610
00:22:26,954 --> 00:22:29,775
But then we start investigating this quantum realm.
611
00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:32,875
And the best way that I can explain
612
00:22:32,875 --> 00:22:34,714
it is if you take something like an
613
00:22:34,714 --> 00:22:36,015
electron or an atom,
614
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:39,579
that a a quantum state for one of
615
00:22:39,579 --> 00:22:40,079
those,
616
00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:42,720
generally speaking, isn't doesn't,
617
00:22:43,420 --> 00:22:46,299
correspond to a well well defined properties like
618
00:22:46,299 --> 00:22:48,299
having a position or a motion or anything
619
00:22:48,299 --> 00:22:48,940
like that,
620
00:22:49,420 --> 00:22:52,115
that all of those factors are
621
00:22:52,734 --> 00:22:53,234
uncertain.
622
00:22:54,255 --> 00:22:56,335
And how should we think about that? Well,
623
00:22:56,335 --> 00:22:58,575
the the way that I like is that
624
00:22:58,575 --> 00:22:59,954
there are parallel
625
00:23:00,255 --> 00:23:01,554
alternative realities.
626
00:23:02,414 --> 00:23:04,654
You'll often read an atom can be in
627
00:23:04,654 --> 00:23:07,140
many places at once in in quantum mechanics.
628
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:08,820
What do you mean by that? It really
629
00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:10,440
means that there are many potential
630
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,220
positions that an atom could have, and you
631
00:23:13,220 --> 00:23:14,820
can set up a quantum state in which
632
00:23:14,820 --> 00:23:16,279
you could have an infinite number
633
00:23:16,660 --> 00:23:19,539
of potential positions. And one way to think
634
00:23:19,539 --> 00:23:21,774
about that is that these are alternative
635
00:23:22,075 --> 00:23:24,174
possible realities blended together
636
00:23:24,794 --> 00:23:25,934
to form an amalgam.
637
00:23:27,194 --> 00:23:29,774
And and the then the question is,
638
00:23:30,154 --> 00:23:32,095
you know, how how are we to understand,
639
00:23:33,034 --> 00:23:35,194
that how that amalgam when we make a
640
00:23:35,194 --> 00:23:35,694
measurement,
641
00:23:36,369 --> 00:23:38,849
that we get a definite result. One one
642
00:23:38,849 --> 00:23:41,269
of those possible worlds gets promoted
643
00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:42,950
to a real world.
644
00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,329
It's the winner, so to speak, in a
645
00:23:45,329 --> 00:23:46,549
great cosmic lottery.
646
00:23:47,490 --> 00:23:51,085
And that process of measurement, is is deeply
647
00:23:51,085 --> 00:23:51,585
mysterious.
648
00:23:52,365 --> 00:23:54,605
We still don't know what it is, how
649
00:23:54,605 --> 00:23:55,904
it is that the,
650
00:23:56,445 --> 00:23:57,664
the the amalgam,
651
00:23:58,365 --> 00:24:00,545
turns into a a specific winner.
652
00:24:01,069 --> 00:24:02,929
So one way of thinking about,
653
00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:05,549
the quantum realm is an infinite number of
654
00:24:05,549 --> 00:24:08,750
possibilities. And mathematically, we can describe that as
655
00:24:08,750 --> 00:24:10,690
like an infinite dimensional space.
656
00:24:11,069 --> 00:24:12,910
Now now you and I don't live in
657
00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:15,089
an infinite dimensional space. We see three,
658
00:24:15,755 --> 00:24:17,695
spatial dimensions, one of time,
659
00:24:18,154 --> 00:24:20,235
and that's it. And yet, you know, the
660
00:24:20,235 --> 00:24:22,015
atom lives in this,
661
00:24:22,955 --> 00:24:25,835
infinite dimensional realm. So if you could imagine
662
00:24:25,835 --> 00:24:26,735
being an atom,
663
00:24:28,075 --> 00:24:30,494
what would you experience? You would experience something
664
00:24:30,555 --> 00:24:31,535
infinitely richer,
665
00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:35,259
than than we can experience in daily life.
666
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,279
And so, if you think that reality is
667
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,600
really at the quantum level, we think that's
668
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,920
the sort of place basement of reality. The
669
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,140
quant quantum mechanics
670
00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,144
sits at the bottom of our explanatory chain
671
00:24:47,305 --> 00:24:50,365
and that the everyday world is an approximation
672
00:24:50,664 --> 00:24:52,664
for the quantum world. But that but if
673
00:24:52,664 --> 00:24:54,125
you ask, you know,
674
00:24:54,585 --> 00:24:56,825
how does god see the universe? Well, it
675
00:24:56,825 --> 00:24:58,684
would be through quantum eyes.
676
00:24:59,305 --> 00:24:59,865
And so,
677
00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:03,480
then you have to think, well, if we
678
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,779
only ourselves see a
tiny, tiny,
679
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,059
in impoverished
680
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,059
view of the the deep quantum reality,
681
00:25:13,174 --> 00:25:14,474
what would it be like,
682
00:25:15,174 --> 00:25:16,954
if you had a conscious
683
00:25:17,255 --> 00:25:18,474
being on intelligence
684
00:25:19,015 --> 00:25:21,414
who could explore the whole of that infinite
685
00:25:21,414 --> 00:25:23,654
dimensional space? It's it's called a Hilbert space
686
00:25:23,654 --> 00:25:24,154
after,
687
00:25:25,349 --> 00:25:27,750
David Hilbert, the mathematician, but it doesn't matter.
688
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:30,150
The whole point is that this, that the
689
00:25:30,150 --> 00:25:33,529
quantum realm, which is, an just this infinite
690
00:25:33,589 --> 00:25:36,309
amalgam of all these possible realities, if you
691
00:25:36,309 --> 00:25:37,049
could actually
692
00:25:37,429 --> 00:25:39,944
inhabit that or observe it in some way,
693
00:25:40,825 --> 00:25:42,524
then it's very hard to imagine,
694
00:25:42,984 --> 00:25:44,284
you know, what what
695
00:25:44,984 --> 00:25:46,605
that experience would be like.
696
00:25:46,984 --> 00:25:49,164
Now we can't do it, but,
697
00:25:49,544 --> 00:25:52,264
supposing we were to build now everyone is
698
00:25:52,264 --> 00:25:55,890
building talk about AI, artificial intelligence. Is
699
00:25:56,509 --> 00:25:58,670
he conscious? Is he intelligent? And so on.
700
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:00,590
I think that most people would say, well,
701
00:26:00,590 --> 00:26:02,349
not yet. We haven't got there yet. But
702
00:26:02,349 --> 00:26:02,830
now,
703
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:05,390
supposedly we do. Supposed we get to the
704
00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:08,029
stage where, we would say, well, AI, it's
705
00:26:08,109 --> 00:26:10,214
we might as well assume that it's the
706
00:26:10,335 --> 00:26:11,954
we're dealing with a conscious agent,
707
00:26:12,494 --> 00:26:14,115
and this could come quite soon.
708
00:26:14,734 --> 00:26:16,914
Then what would happen if we combine this
709
00:26:17,055 --> 00:26:17,555
with
710
00:26:18,015 --> 00:26:20,335
with quantum two point zero? And there is
711
00:26:20,335 --> 00:26:23,315
indeed an effort to to build quantum artificial
712
00:26:23,375 --> 00:26:24,515
intelligence, QAI.
713
00:26:25,710 --> 00:26:27,169
And then we can think, well,
714
00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:29,569
what what what would
715
00:26:30,190 --> 00:26:31,890
this entity, this agent
716
00:26:32,429 --> 00:26:35,069
that could explore the whole Hilbert space, what
717
00:26:35,069 --> 00:26:36,349
would it have to say to us, and
718
00:26:36,349 --> 00:26:38,029
what sort of problems could it solve that
719
00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:39,944
we could never ever solve even with the
720
00:26:39,944 --> 00:26:41,724
help of our conventional computers?
721
00:26:42,265 --> 00:26:43,644
So it does open up,
722
00:26:44,105 --> 00:26:44,605
something,
723
00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:46,125
science
724
00:26:46,585 --> 00:26:49,164
fiction realm at the moment, but philosophically,
725
00:26:50,585 --> 00:26:53,544
disturbing or exciting or challenging, depending on which
726
00:26:53,544 --> 00:26:54,690
way you want to look at it,
727
00:26:55,649 --> 00:26:58,629
notion that a conscious quantum entity,
728
00:26:59,809 --> 00:27:00,549
would be,
729
00:27:01,329 --> 00:27:02,389
I I imagine,
730
00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:03,190
incomprehensible
731
00:27:03,569 --> 00:27:05,349
to us in terms of its experiences.
732
00:27:06,289 --> 00:27:07,809
And and it may be that we're gonna
733
00:27:07,809 --> 00:27:09,509
build one of those within
734
00:27:10,414 --> 00:27:12,015
the lifetime of some of the people listening
735
00:27:12,015 --> 00:27:12,674
to us.
736
00:27:12,974 --> 00:27:14,034
Do you think we should?
737
00:27:15,054 --> 00:27:15,534
Well,
738
00:27:15,934 --> 00:27:18,034
what we're into here, there's
739
00:27:18,575 --> 00:27:21,794
this debate taking place just with conventional AI,
740
00:27:22,255 --> 00:27:22,755
that
741
00:27:23,134 --> 00:27:25,289
at what point do we hand over,
742
00:27:26,009 --> 00:27:28,590
to to these, things and let them
743
00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:31,769
run our our our world for us. You
744
00:27:31,769 --> 00:27:34,109
even get into it in a smaller way
745
00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:36,830
with quantum sensors because I mentioned
746
00:27:37,289 --> 00:27:40,055
that, you can you can use them
747
00:27:40,674 --> 00:27:43,234
to monitor human brainwaves. You you can wear
748
00:27:43,234 --> 00:27:43,815
a helmet,
749
00:27:44,595 --> 00:27:47,795
with quantum magnetometers in them that can pick
750
00:27:47,795 --> 00:27:50,035
up a tiny magnetic field that penetrate the
751
00:27:50,035 --> 00:27:51,640
skull. And then you can couple
752
00:27:52,259 --> 00:27:52,759
the,
753
00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:55,940
subject to a computer. You could use that
754
00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:58,119
to control robot arms or,
755
00:27:58,899 --> 00:28:00,019
vehicles or,
756
00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:02,200
anything you want, really.
757
00:28:02,819 --> 00:28:03,799
Once you you
758
00:28:04,304 --> 00:28:05,684
couple the human brain
759
00:28:05,984 --> 00:28:08,625
to a computer or to the Internet. And
760
00:28:08,625 --> 00:28:10,804
that raises the question, does this enhance
761
00:28:11,424 --> 00:28:12,804
what it means to be human,
762
00:28:13,585 --> 00:28:15,424
or does it diminish that? In other words,
763
00:28:15,424 --> 00:28:17,204
are we going to become like a node,
764
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,559
just a mere node in something much bigger?
765
00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:22,400
And is that is that good or is
766
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,320
it bad? And it it depends on on
767
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,140
your, philosophical point of view. There are religions
768
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,599
in which,
769
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,640
immersing yourself in the great sort of cosmic
770
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,660
consciousness is regarded as progress.
771
00:28:33,794 --> 00:28:34,534
That doesn't
772
00:28:35,154 --> 00:28:37,174
the Western tradition tends to,
773
00:28:37,875 --> 00:28:41,075
be, I think, very suspicious of the idea
774
00:28:41,075 --> 00:28:41,575
of,
775
00:28:42,755 --> 00:28:44,054
surrendering something,
776
00:28:44,515 --> 00:28:46,034
of what it what it needs to be
777
00:28:46,034 --> 00:28:48,480
human to some bigger system. So that's that's
778
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,019
something that would have to be,
779
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,599
be fought out e even before we get
780
00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:56,000
to the idea of quantum AI. It's bad
781
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,220
enough for just AI.
782
00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:01,125
Yes. You know, we're I look at the
783
00:29:01,125 --> 00:29:03,365
world, and I'd I'd I don't necessarily think
784
00:29:03,365 --> 00:29:05,285
that all the people in all the countries
785
00:29:05,285 --> 00:29:07,365
should be the people in power. Right? I
786
00:29:07,365 --> 00:29:09,785
think there could be better options than that.
787
00:29:09,845 --> 00:29:11,225
Yes. It's a very uncontentious
788
00:29:11,605 --> 00:29:14,129
question. People could draw their own conclusions as
789
00:29:14,129 --> 00:29:16,129
to who I'm referring to. But if that's
790
00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:18,049
what we do as humans, why why shouldn't
791
00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:20,609
we give it over to, you know, something
792
00:29:20,609 --> 00:29:22,769
that maybe new Northern Us? Why shouldn't we
793
00:29:22,769 --> 00:29:23,990
give power over
794
00:29:24,369 --> 00:29:25,109
our lives,
795
00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:28,365
our world, our universe to something that maybe
796
00:29:28,365 --> 00:29:30,365
could understand things better than me? I keep
797
00:29:30,365 --> 00:29:32,525
changing my mind on this very topic. I
798
00:29:32,525 --> 00:29:33,805
think, you know, look at the state of
799
00:29:33,805 --> 00:29:35,664
the world today, and I think, well,
800
00:29:37,005 --> 00:29:40,049
we're we're electing in some countries. We elect,
801
00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:42,190
individuals, and then,
802
00:29:42,990 --> 00:29:44,589
they seem to make a hash of things.
803
00:29:44,589 --> 00:29:46,589
And then I think to myself, well, the
804
00:29:46,589 --> 00:29:49,009
people I I know who I really admire
805
00:29:49,150 --> 00:29:51,070
and who wants to change the world for
806
00:29:51,070 --> 00:29:52,910
the better are not gonna do it through
807
00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:54,575
the political process. They
808
00:29:55,755 --> 00:29:58,315
do it through through writing or developing new
809
00:29:58,315 --> 00:29:58,815
technology
810
00:29:59,194 --> 00:30:01,294
or starting foundations or something.
811
00:30:02,714 --> 00:30:05,034
And so it is getting to the stage
812
00:30:05,034 --> 00:30:07,434
where you think, would we be better off
813
00:30:07,434 --> 00:30:08,255
as a
species,
814
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:10,099
being managed
815
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:10,900
by
816
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,200
AI? So but I tell you what the
817
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,019
danger is.
818
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,240
We're now developing, as it were, the first
819
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,420
generation of AI. So maybe QAI
820
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,180
is not far behind.
821
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:21,299
And,
822
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,384
I think everybody recognizes there are dangers of
823
00:30:24,384 --> 00:30:25,284
sort of unrestrained
824
00:30:25,825 --> 00:30:27,585
AI development, that we ought to have a
825
00:30:27,585 --> 00:30:28,085
framework,
826
00:30:29,184 --> 00:30:30,244
ethical framework,
827
00:30:30,944 --> 00:30:33,424
practical framework, the you know, don't let these
828
00:30:33,424 --> 00:30:34,079
things loose,
829
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,880
if they're gonna go berserk and destroy us,
830
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,740
or don't put them in charge of
831
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:41,759
battlefield or anything. That's all people worry about
832
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:42,419
all that.
833
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,940
So we can imagine,
834
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:45,859
constructing
835
00:30:46,399 --> 00:30:47,140
the necessary,
836
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:48,819
software,
837
00:30:49,845 --> 00:30:50,825
for these things,
838
00:30:51,125 --> 00:30:52,345
which would embed,
839
00:30:53,285 --> 00:30:56,804
roughly speaking, human values. And, Isaac Asimov was,
840
00:30:56,964 --> 00:30:58,345
the great visionary. He writes
841
00:30:58,804 --> 00:31:01,525
about robotics way back in the fifties, and
842
00:31:01,525 --> 00:31:02,825
there are the three laws,
843
00:31:03,285 --> 00:31:03,785
Asimov's
844
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:05,700
laws of robotics.
845
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:08,720
And you think, well, okay. We could we
846
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,740
could design this first generation
847
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:11,779
of ARs,
848
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,339
to to do no evil.
849
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:17,965
We'd we'd argue over what that means, but
850
00:31:17,965 --> 00:31:19,965
we could imagine doing it. But the trouble
851
00:31:19,965 --> 00:31:22,445
is the technology is moving so fast that
852
00:31:22,445 --> 00:31:25,164
AI is already developing the next generation of
853
00:31:25,164 --> 00:31:27,085
AI and the next generation and so on.
854
00:31:27,085 --> 00:31:28,945
So supposing we surrender,
855
00:31:29,965 --> 00:31:30,465
the
856
00:31:30,859 --> 00:31:32,080
management of the planet
857
00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:33,259
to,
858
00:31:33,740 --> 00:31:35,900
a a system of AIs, and we sit
859
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:37,900
back thinking, well, we can enjoy all this
860
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:38,619
now. You know, it's
861
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:40,859
we can just have a good life and
862
00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:42,640
let the AIs worry about
863
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:44,320
climate change or,
864
00:31:45,515 --> 00:31:47,835
supply chain management or all of the things,
865
00:31:47,835 --> 00:31:50,795
starvation. It would well outsource it to them.
866
00:31:50,795 --> 00:31:51,535
But then,
867
00:31:52,235 --> 00:31:54,174
the the the next generation
868
00:31:54,634 --> 00:31:55,215
of AIs,
869
00:31:55,755 --> 00:31:57,450
if if you you know, I think about
870
00:31:57,690 --> 00:31:59,690
evolution. You know that with each generation, there
871
00:31:59,690 --> 00:32:02,109
are accidents and glitches and things don't get,
872
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:05,069
passed on quite right. And,
873
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:07,149
over a million generations,
874
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:09,609
can we really believe that in the far
875
00:32:09,609 --> 00:32:10,109
future,
876
00:32:10,985 --> 00:32:13,465
that the AI is running things, are going
877
00:32:13,465 --> 00:32:16,105
to still embed those human values? I think
878
00:32:16,105 --> 00:32:18,605
it's very, very unlikely. So once you unleash
879
00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:21,644
this AI world with its downstream
880
00:32:22,105 --> 00:32:23,325
consequences for
881
00:32:23,785 --> 00:32:25,404
end generation AIs,
882
00:32:25,865 --> 00:32:28,099
that's starting to look really scary,
883
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,559
but it may be unstoppable. I feel like
884
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:33,279
every conversation, every podcast that I'm doing at
885
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:36,000
the moment could end up in, you know,
886
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,460
a black hole of,
887
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,920
what is AI going to bring to us.
888
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,775
So I wanna just get back to the
889
00:32:41,775 --> 00:32:43,475
the quantum side of things.
890
00:32:43,934 --> 00:32:45,615
And with this being the International Year of
891
00:32:45,615 --> 00:32:47,775
Quantum, it we've we've covered a few different
892
00:32:47,775 --> 00:32:49,615
areas of it over the course of the
893
00:32:49,615 --> 00:32:50,434
year, including,
894
00:32:50,815 --> 00:32:51,634
you know, conversations
895
00:32:52,015 --> 00:32:52,515
with
896
00:32:53,055 --> 00:32:54,835
quantum physicists, but also
897
00:32:55,535 --> 00:32:58,230
artists who have delved into the world of
898
00:32:58,230 --> 00:33:00,569
quantum in their work. People like Serena Scappanini,
899
00:33:00,869 --> 00:33:03,029
who was in a podcast with us recently,
900
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:04,089
and Fliss Inkpen
901
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:05,130
as well.
902
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:08,309
And there's something in your book about quantum
903
00:33:08,309 --> 00:33:09,829
music. Could you tell me just a bit
904
00:33:09,829 --> 00:33:10,484
about that?
905
00:33:14,005 --> 00:33:15,605
Well, this I I have to admit this
906
00:33:15,605 --> 00:33:17,285
is a little bit of a gimmick, but
907
00:33:17,285 --> 00:33:18,424
some people have,
908
00:33:19,204 --> 00:33:20,424
decided that they,
909
00:33:21,285 --> 00:33:22,184
would like to
910
00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:26,210
couple musical instruments to a quantum computer.
911
00:33:27,069 --> 00:33:27,569
And,
912
00:33:28,109 --> 00:33:29,169
the thing about
913
00:33:30,029 --> 00:33:33,329
quantum mechanics is that it's got, intrinsic
914
00:33:33,869 --> 00:33:36,190
elements of of randomness to it, but it's
915
00:33:36,190 --> 00:33:37,650
not, like chaos.
916
00:33:38,664 --> 00:33:39,244
And so,
917
00:33:40,744 --> 00:33:42,125
if you play your music,
918
00:33:42,825 --> 00:33:45,404
through or in collaboration with a quantum computer,
919
00:33:45,465 --> 00:33:46,924
it's going to be a very,
920
00:33:47,945 --> 00:33:49,484
novel type of jazz
921
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:55,029
innovation because there'll be some unexpected elements, and
922
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:56,330
then there'll be some coherence,
923
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:58,330
to it and so on.
924
00:33:58,950 --> 00:34:00,150
And so I think that, you know, it's
925
00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:01,590
a little bit of an effort to try
926
00:34:01,590 --> 00:34:02,090
to,
927
00:34:03,524 --> 00:34:04,024
to,
928
00:34:04,964 --> 00:34:06,804
I guess, the bigger thing is that we've
929
00:34:06,804 --> 00:34:09,144
been talking science a lot about the technology
930
00:34:09,284 --> 00:34:11,864
that comes from it. But great scientific revolutions
931
00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:14,505
always have implications for the arts as well.
932
00:34:14,804 --> 00:34:17,760
And quantum music is probably just the first,
933
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,559
of the way in which,
934
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,920
quantum information science. Because when we get to
935
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,579
the information,
936
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,059
we're combining it with things like
937
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,179
creativity and knowledge and understanding,
938
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,699
and art.
939
00:34:33,344 --> 00:34:36,005
So, quantum information science will impact
940
00:34:36,385 --> 00:34:38,625
the arts, I think, right across. So I
941
00:34:38,625 --> 00:34:39,344
can imagine,
942
00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:40,485
even,
943
00:34:41,585 --> 00:34:43,684
with drama and the performing arts
944
00:34:43,985 --> 00:34:44,485
where,
945
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,239
you'd embark on a play, but you wouldn't
946
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,699
know how it's going to end,
947
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,400
partway through because you'd have a a quantum
948
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,960
AI or something would be the or more
949
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,300
modestly just a capital quantum computer
950
00:34:56,599 --> 00:34:58,440
that would be sort of rewriting the script
951
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,025
as he went along. So, you know, I
952
00:35:00,025 --> 00:35:01,804
think there's there's a lot of an entertaining
953
00:35:02,025 --> 00:35:03,724
aspect that could come out of quantity.
954
00:35:04,105 --> 00:35:05,804
No. Absolutely. Now
the book,
955
00:35:06,105 --> 00:35:08,264
is or I think entertaining is definitely a
956
00:35:08,264 --> 00:35:09,324
word I would use,
957
00:35:09,784 --> 00:35:11,945
to describe it. And I think that when
958
00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:14,200
you described the person for whom it is
959
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,960
meant, I felt like you were describing me,
960
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,579
to be perfectly honest with you.
961
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,019
But my my my feeling is that
962
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,119
it doesn't really matter whether I understand this
963
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,119
stuff. It gives me great joy to try
964
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:27,880
and understand it and to read the book.
965
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,315
Right? But does it actually
966
00:35:30,014 --> 00:35:32,034
matter if people like me
967
00:35:32,335 --> 00:35:34,734
know about the quantum realm that's got, you
968
00:35:34,734 --> 00:35:35,234
know,
969
00:35:35,534 --> 00:35:36,914
permeating through everything?
970
00:35:38,014 --> 00:35:38,454
Well,
971
00:35:38,894 --> 00:35:39,335
the
972
00:35:39,775 --> 00:35:42,369
so it's often being said where when people
973
00:35:42,369 --> 00:35:44,929
say nice things about my writing, they say,
974
00:35:44,929 --> 00:35:46,369
well, you know, that was wonderful. And then
975
00:35:46,369 --> 00:35:47,570
I read I read your book or I
976
00:35:47,570 --> 00:35:49,409
read your article, and and I thought, oh,
977
00:35:49,409 --> 00:35:51,730
now I understand this obscure subject. But, you
978
00:35:51,730 --> 00:35:53,170
know, the following day when I tried to
979
00:35:53,170 --> 00:35:54,789
explain to my mother, I realized
980
00:35:57,625 --> 00:35:59,704
there is there is an art in,
981
00:36:00,105 --> 00:36:02,364
dealing with very technical and very
982
00:36:02,984 --> 00:36:04,844
intellectual challenging subjects,
983
00:36:05,385 --> 00:36:08,184
to find analogies and shortcuts and ways of
984
00:36:08,184 --> 00:36:10,230
sort of conveying the spirit of something,
985
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:13,109
without having to get into the weeds of
986
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:13,849
the technicalities.
987
00:36:14,309 --> 00:36:16,230
And I think that this book I mean,
988
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:18,230
I'd probably get more into the weeds with
989
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:20,630
this book I have with previous books because
990
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:23,385
some of the experiments are the delayed choice
991
00:36:24,025 --> 00:36:26,425
experiments and the quantum erase and so on,
992
00:36:26,425 --> 00:36:28,505
I'll go into in quite some detail because
993
00:36:28,505 --> 00:36:30,744
they're so bizarre when you if you take
994
00:36:30,744 --> 00:36:32,184
the trouble to to,
995
00:36:32,505 --> 00:36:35,065
go through them. The nature of reality is
996
00:36:35,065 --> 00:36:35,804
so weird,
997
00:36:36,505 --> 00:36:38,369
that I felt it was worth spelling all
998
00:36:38,369 --> 00:36:39,109
that out.
999
00:36:40,289 --> 00:36:41,670
Now as to whether,
1000
00:36:42,130 --> 00:36:42,869
it matters
1001
00:36:43,650 --> 00:36:45,969
whether members of the public have grasp of
1002
00:36:45,969 --> 00:36:46,469
this,
1003
00:36:47,569 --> 00:36:49,750
I think I'm writing for people for whom
1004
00:36:50,449 --> 00:36:53,029
this subject is sort of intriguing and entertaining
1005
00:36:53,625 --> 00:36:56,344
and also pushes the boundaries for them to
1006
00:36:56,344 --> 00:36:58,664
think about what what is my place in
1007
00:36:58,664 --> 00:37:00,684
the world? How should I understand the world?
1008
00:37:01,704 --> 00:37:04,605
But there's also the sense in which because
1009
00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:06,824
we live in a world that's dominated by
1010
00:37:06,824 --> 00:37:07,885
quantum technology,
1011
00:37:08,289 --> 00:37:10,869
people have some idea what is this thing.
1012
00:37:11,009 --> 00:37:12,549
Because they used to work quantum,
1013
00:37:13,009 --> 00:37:15,170
you know, as if that explains everything. Oh,
1014
00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:17,089
it's quantum. Oh, yeah. I I know what
1015
00:37:17,089 --> 00:37:19,250
you mean. But but I I think people
1016
00:37:19,250 --> 00:37:21,045
should have some understanding of
1017
00:37:21,744 --> 00:37:22,804
of how those ideas
1018
00:37:23,184 --> 00:37:25,844
came into society over a hundred years ago,
1019
00:37:26,385 --> 00:37:26,885
and
1020
00:37:27,265 --> 00:37:28,965
and how important it is.
1021
00:37:29,664 --> 00:37:31,344
And and it's not just a label. I
1022
00:37:31,344 --> 00:37:32,565
mean, it is actually
1023
00:37:32,864 --> 00:37:34,324
a a scientific discipline.
1024
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,400
And as I said earlier, the most successful
1025
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,460
scientific theory,
1026
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:40,219
in in history.
1027
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,079
So I think people ought to know something
1028
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:46,199
about it. It's you know, it it there
1029
00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:46,859
was famous
1030
00:37:47,894 --> 00:37:48,394
writer,
1031
00:37:48,775 --> 00:37:50,855
Charles Snow, c p Snow, who wrote about
1032
00:37:50,855 --> 00:37:51,835
their two cultures,
1033
00:37:53,255 --> 00:37:54,555
some decades ago.
1034
00:37:54,934 --> 00:37:56,715
I'd bemoan the fact that,
1035
00:37:57,974 --> 00:37:58,875
at high table
1036
00:37:59,574 --> 00:38:01,035
at, at a college,
1037
00:38:02,179 --> 00:38:04,679
where you're mixing people from different disciplines,
1038
00:38:05,859 --> 00:38:07,859
you would be appalled if one of the
1039
00:38:07,859 --> 00:38:08,920
scientists said,
1040
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:11,960
well, I don't know anything about William Shakespeare.
1041
00:38:12,019 --> 00:38:14,019
You know? Was he a poet? I think
1042
00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:15,880
he wrote plays, didn't he? But, yeah,
1043
00:38:16,179 --> 00:38:17,835
I know nothing about it. You you really
1044
00:38:17,835 -->
00:38:19,295
would feel that that was a
1045
00:38:20,795 --> 00:38:22,735
a a terrible commentary on their education.
1046
00:38:23,355 --> 00:38:26,175
But if, you know, Shakespearean scholar said,
1047
00:38:26,474 --> 00:38:27,835
I've never heard of the second law of
1048
00:38:27,835 --> 00:38:28,335
thermodynamics.
1049
00:38:29,835 --> 00:38:30,989
You know, one of the most
1050
00:38:31,630 --> 00:38:33,329
arguably the most profound
1051
00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:35,809
of the laws of physics,
1052
00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:38,670
then they get away with that. They could
1053
00:38:38,670 --> 00:38:40,590
almost be proud. Like, oh, I never involved
1054
00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:43,329
myself before. Like like, second law of thermodynamics.
1055
00:38:43,949 --> 00:38:46,454
So I see see quantum physics now as
1056
00:38:46,454 --> 00:38:48,694
playing the same role as the second order
1057
00:38:48,694 --> 00:38:51,034
of thermodynamics did in previous generations.
1058
00:38:51,414 --> 00:38:54,135
It is something so central to our society
1059
00:38:54,135 --> 00:38:56,694
and to our technology and to but more
1060
00:38:56,694 --> 00:38:58,394
than that, to, understanding
1061
00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:02,220
what what is the nature of reality and
1062
00:39:02,220 --> 00:39:04,380
and human observation, and how do we fit
1063
00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:07,340
in to the universe as systems in in
1064
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:10,300
its it's the universal material system that deep
1065
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,914
down, it's got all this weird stuff going
1066
00:39:12,914 --> 00:39:15,094
on, and peep people need to know that.
1067
00:39:15,315 --> 00:39:17,155
I'd like to thank Paul Davies for talking
1068
00:39:17,155 --> 00:39:18,675
to me for this episode of the Physics
1069
00:39:18,675 --> 00:39:20,994
World Stories podcast. You can find out much
1070
00:39:20,994 --> 00:39:23,635
more about quantum mechanics from quantum origins to
1071
00:39:23,635 --> 00:39:24,535
quantum cosmology
1072
00:39:24,914 --> 00:39:27,315
in Paul Davies' new book, Quantum two point
1073
00:39:27,315 --> 00:39:30,150
o, the past, present, and future of quantum
1074
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:32,150
physics. You'll also find a review of that
1075
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:34,730
book by Physics World's editor, Matin Jirani,
1076
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:37,110
in the opinion and review section of the
1077
00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:39,349
Physics World website. But, of course, we'll also
1078
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:41,454
post a link to it from the podcast
1079
00:39:41,454 --> 00:39:43,775
pages. And, of course, there's plenty more quantum
1080
00:39:43,775 --> 00:39:45,934
science and everything else shaping the future of
1081
00:39:45,934 --> 00:39:48,815
physics over at physicsworld.com.
1082
00:39:48,815 --> 00:39:51,375
We'll be back next month for the final
1083
00:39:51,375 --> 00:39:54,094
episode of twenty twenty five, and thank you
1084
00:39:54,094 --> 00:39:55,394
very much for listening.