Transcription complète de #133 Why Attributes Matter More Than Skills: Former Navy SEAL, Rich Diviney Shares Leadership Insights

So I'm just going to kind of hear your perspective. What sort of traits did 00:03:56.842 --> 00:03:59.882 you see from effective leaders during your time in the SEALs? 00:04:00.302 --> 00:04:03.902 Yes. Well, so you do. And I think, well, one of the things we have to understand 00:04:03.902 --> 00:04:07.562 about the military, and this is regardless of any military around the world, 00:04:07.622 --> 00:04:08.682 because we work with so many, 00:04:08.862 --> 00:04:12.642 is that, yes, you do have some fantastic military leadership, 00:04:12.642 --> 00:04:15.702 but you also have some lousy military leaders. 00:04:15.882 --> 00:04:21.982 It's not a for certain thing. I believe that I was fortunate in the sense that, 00:04:22.102 --> 00:04:27.382 A, yes, I was in a community that typically had some very outstanding people to include leaders. 00:04:27.662 --> 00:04:31.862 But I think, B, we were thrust into an environment, i.e. 00:04:32.402 --> 00:04:37.162 War and combat, that I think accelerates those leadership qualities, 00:04:37.302 --> 00:04:41.302 especially the good ones, because the bad ones tend to not be successful. 00:04:41.422 --> 00:04:44.962 They tend to kind of go by the wayside. But I think I think the key ones were 00:04:44.962 --> 00:04:47.582 accountability. You always look for that in a leader. 00:04:47.842 --> 00:04:53.422 I think it was decisiveness, the ability to kind of make a decision quickly and and efficiently. 00:04:53.662 --> 00:04:58.262 I think empathy is one of the strong leadership qualities, courage, 00:04:58.442 --> 00:05:01.622 of course. So I think those were some of the ones I count authenticity. 00:05:01.962 --> 00:05:06.722 Those were some of the key attributes that I saw in the best leaders. 00:05:06.982 --> 00:05:10.442 And then and in essence, the ones I tried to emulate to myself as a leader. 00:05:11.211 --> 00:05:14.931 Amazing. And in your book, you talk a lot about attributes sort of being, 00:05:15.171 --> 00:05:17.071 I guess, performance kind of under stress. 00:05:17.371 --> 00:05:19.431 I know you can demonstrate a skill whenever, but it's the attribute, 00:05:19.791 --> 00:05:21.911 you know, when the sort of, when it really comes down to it, 00:05:21.971 --> 00:05:23.331 how do you deliver that under stress? 00:05:23.851 --> 00:05:26.031 Do you maybe have an example you could share from your time in the military 00:05:26.031 --> 00:05:31.071 where someone or sometimes stood out to you where they demonstrated that very well? 00:05:32.051 --> 00:05:34.911 Gosh there's so many well i think i think the attributes let 00:05:34.911 --> 00:05:37.671 me just give you a couple examples just from from training and 00:05:37.671 --> 00:05:40.531 so and so in seal training and so seal training is 00:05:40.531 --> 00:05:44.111 in san diego california it's six months long it's called buds basic underwater 00:05:44.111 --> 00:05:47.651 demolition slash seal training again like i said it's a 90 percent attrition 00:05:47.651 --> 00:05:51.651 rate when you go through buds you spend hundreds of hours carrying big heavy 00:05:51.651 --> 00:05:55.431 boats on your head you spend hundreds of hours exercising with 300 pound telephone 00:05:55.431 --> 00:05:58.811 poles and running around those things and then freezing in the surf zone and 00:05:58.811 --> 00:06:00.411 i you know, like I said, I went through in 96. 00:06:00.791 --> 00:06:04.471 In 2010, when I was actually doing this work, I began to do the attributes work. 00:06:04.571 --> 00:06:09.751 I looked back at my training and I had at that point been on hundreds of combat 00:06:09.751 --> 00:06:11.791 missions overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan. 00:06:11.971 --> 00:06:16.071 I can tell you with certainty that never on one of them did I carry a big heavy 00:06:16.071 --> 00:06:18.251 boat on my head or a 300 pound telephone pole. 00:06:18.591 --> 00:06:21.771 And so what I realized was that what they were doing to us in SEAL training 00:06:21.771 --> 00:06:25.271 was not in fact training us in the skills to be Navy SEALs. 00:06:25.351 --> 00:06:28.851 They were actually putting us into these environments to see if we had the qualities, 00:06:28.851 --> 00:06:30.671 if we had what it took to be Navy SEALs. 00:06:30.831 --> 00:06:34.371 And so that was one kind of illumination for me. The other one came in the version 00:06:34.371 --> 00:06:37.191 of a story told to me by an older Navy SEAL. 00:06:37.671 --> 00:06:41.411 He had been an instructor years ago, years back. And he said, 00:06:41.511 --> 00:06:45.131 you know, Rich, there's a story of a kid showing up to Navy SEAL training one day. 00:06:45.391 --> 00:06:49.051 And he walked into the instructor's offices and he says, I want to be a Navy SEAL. 00:06:49.491 --> 00:06:52.271 The instructor says, okay, well, you have to do a swim test. And the kid says, fine. 00:06:52.591 --> 00:06:54.651 And so they take him out to the pool and it's an easy swim test. 00:06:54.771 --> 00:06:57.911 It's 50 meters. So 25 meters to one end, 25 meters back to the other end. 00:06:58.231 --> 00:07:01.171 But anyway, this kid gets all ready to go and he jumps in the pool and when 00:07:01.171 --> 00:07:03.471 he jumps in the pool, he proceeds to sink to the bottom of the pool. 00:07:03.771 --> 00:07:05.711 And at the bottom of the pool, he starts walking across. 00:07:06.557 --> 00:07:09.797 The bottom of the pool to one end. He touches one end and he walks across the 00:07:09.797 --> 00:07:13.917 bottom of the pool back to the other end. He comes up, he's gasping for air, nearly drowning. 00:07:14.077 --> 00:07:16.117 And the instructor looks at him and says, what the heck are you doing? 00:07:16.577 --> 00:07:19.277 And the kid who's still trying to catch his breath looks at the instructor and 00:07:19.277 --> 00:07:21.597 says, I'm sorry, instructor, I don't know how to swim. 00:07:22.157 --> 00:07:24.897 And at that point, the instructor pauses and he looks

at the kid and says, 00:07:25.297 --> 00:07:26.697 that's okay, we can teach you how to swim. 00:07:27.077 --> 00:07:30.117 And so the question is, why does the instructor do that? He did that because 00:07:30.117 --> 00:07:34.537 he knew if this kid had the attributes, the qualities to show up to Navy SEAL 00:07:34.537 --> 00:07:35.997 training without knowing how to swim. 00:07:36.197 --> 00:07:39.637 He had everything inside of him that we needed to be a Navy SEAL. 00:07:39.777 --> 00:07:41.837 Teaching him the skill of swimming was going to be easy. 00:07:41.997 --> 00:07:45.437 And so I think when it comes to most professions, but certainly the special 00:07:45.437 --> 00:07:49.457 operations professions, the best of us, highest performing humans and the highest 00:07:49.457 --> 00:07:53.377 performing teams distinguish themselves, not because they're able to perform 00:07:53.377 --> 00:07:54.457 when things are going great. 00:07:54.617 --> 00:07:57.657 They distinguish themselves when, because they're able to perform when things 00:07:57.657 --> 00:08:01.697 are not going great, when the, you know, what hits the fan, when we drop into 00:08:01.697 --> 00:08:03.377 chaos and uncertainty and stress. 00:08:03.837 --> 00:08:08.177 And when we do that, we are running on attributes. And so it's super important 00:08:08.177 --> 00:08:11.677 that in any profession, but certainly the spec ops professions, 00:08:11.937 --> 00:08:16.397 but in any domain, we understand what elements we have about ourselves. 00:08:16.397 --> 00:08:19.897 So we understand how we're going to show up and why we're going to show up that 00:08:19.897 --> 00:08:22.117 way in these points of uncertainty, challenge, and stress. 00:08:22.257 --> 00:08:26.837 So it's kind of a roundabout answer, I know, but I guess the quick answer would be, 00:08:27.197 --> 00:08:30.317 Callum, that almost every environment that i 00:08:30.317 --> 00:08:34.897 went into in combat was leaning on attributes not just skill because your primary 00:08:34.897 --> 00:08:38.697 job is to deal with the uncertainty and challenge and stress first and once 00:08:38.697 --> 00:08:42.337 you start dealing with that then you apply the skill you don't you don't shoot 00:08:42.337 --> 00:08:46.297 then think you think then shoot and to think then shoot you have to it has to 00:08:46.297 --> 00:08:47.917 be attributes based attributes focus. 00:08:48.417 --> 00:08:52.097 And so it's almost evaluating what are the the innate qualities of that person 00:08:52.097 --> 00:08:55.537 versus the inherent skill that they they have that's right yeah that's right 00:08:55.537 --> 00:08:57.837 so that's a really nice example thank you for sharing. 00:08:58.057 --> 00:09:02.297 If we fast forward that into kind of a business context, how do you balance 00:09:02.297 --> 00:09:06.537 skill versus the attributes of someone when you're trying to build a high performing 00:09:06.537 --> 00:09:08.477 team or lead a given team? 00:09:08.777 --> 00:09:11.877 I'm really curious to get your thoughts on that. Yeah, so the thing we have 00:09:11.877 --> 00:09:14.817 to understand is when it comes to teaming in any domain, first of all, 00:09:14.957 --> 00:09:19.157 team defined is simply any group of two or more people working together towards 00:09:19.157 --> 00:09:20.337 a common goal or objective. 00:09:20.697 --> 00:09:24.157 That's simple. Now, the distinguishing element for that for a regular team and 00:09:24.157 --> 00:09:27.457 a high-performing team is that perform not only when things are going great, 00:09:27.577 --> 00:09:29.417 but also when things aren't going great. 00:09:29.557 --> 00:09:31.717 So all this to say, high-performing teams can be found anywhere. 00:09:31.877 --> 00:09:34.377 It's not just business, not just athletics, that's just military. 00:09:34.577 --> 00:09:37.717 A high-performing team can be a great marriage. A high-performing team can be 00:09:37.717 --> 00:09:39.237 a group of friends on a trip or a. 00:09:39.893 --> 00:09:43.593 Folks working on a community project. But the idea is teaming, 00:09:43.693 --> 00:09:50.393 when it comes to teaming, it's not about necessarily all the skills that the team brings together. 00:09:50.693 --> 00:09:53.453 I came across years ago, I came across this very interesting fellow. 00:09:53.593 --> 00:09:57.233 His name was Russell Akoff. Russell Akoff had some interesting titles. 00:09:57.353 --> 00:10:01.753 He was a systems theorist. He was a behavioral analyst and a management science expert. 00:10:01.833 --> 00:10:06.413 He used to speak and relate systems theory to leadership. 00:10:06.693 --> 00:10:09.993 And he had some fascinating lectures on YouTube that I used to watch. 00:10:10.053 --> 00:10:11.273 I think he, I think he's deceased. 00:10:11.413 --> 00:10:14.493 I think he died in the early 2000s. But one of the things he used to say to 00:10:14.493 --> 00:10:19.833 his groups, his audiences, he said, if I took the best parts of every best vehicle 00:10:19.833 --> 00:10:24.253 on the planet, and put them all together, so say one, one type of vehicle has the best engine, 00:10:24.453 --> 00:10:27.013 another type has the best suspension, another type has the best carver, 00:10:27.213 --> 00:10:30.273 best parts of every best vehicle on the planet and put them all together in 00:10:30.273 --> 00:10:33.073 the center of the room, would I have the best vehicle on the planet? 00:10:33.573 --> 00:10:36.913 And the answer is no, you wouldn't have a vehicle because the parts wouldn't fit together. 00:10:37.033 --> 00:10:40.313 And he used to say that a system is never just the sum of its parts. 00:10:40.313 --> 00:10:42.313 It's a product of how they interact. 00:10:42.473 --> 00:10:45.393 And so goes with the team. A team is never just the sum of its parts. 00:10:45.413 --> 00:10:47.233 It's a product of their interaction. 00:10:47.413 --> 00:10:50.653 So what businesses have to understand, what

any team has to understand is you 00:10:50.653 --> 00:10:54.113 can have all the best, most talented people, but if they're not interacting 00:10:54.113 --> 00:10:57.933 properly, you're going to have a toxic, non-performing, underperforming team. 00:10:58.173 --> 00:11:01.013 So businesses have to understand that, yes, while skills do matter, 00:11:01.073 --> 00:11:05.213 and there are some prerequisites, you wouldn't want to hire a CFO that has not 00:11:05.213 --> 00:11:07.533 been to accounting school, right? So there are prerequisites. 00:11:07.753 --> 00:11:12.293 But just because someone is the top talent, doesn't necessarily mean that they're 00:11:12.293 --> 00:11:13.213 the best fit for the team. 00:11:13.353 --> 00:11:18.613 And sometimes in some cases, you know, every, every skill is buttressed by attributes, 00:11:18.673 --> 00:11:21.973 we don't we aren't able to even gain skills without using attributes to do it. 00:11:22.053 --> 00:11:26.013 In some cases, that person who may be the second best or even the middle. 00:11:26.812 --> 00:11:29.972 Talented or performer might in your environment 00:11:29.972 --> 00:11:32.812 accelerate to someone to one of the best people on 00:11:32.812 --> 00:11:35.492 the planet because because they're actually in an 00:11:35.492 --> 00:11:38.292 environment where they're actualizing their attributes in a in a meaningful 00:11:38.292 --> 00:11:41.572 way so so businesses just have to begin to understand that when it comes to 00:11:41.572 --> 00:11:46.192 teaming we cannot ignore this critical piece of performance when we are picking 00:11:46.192 --> 00:11:50.812 teams or even performance evaluating and i remember you said in when i was doing 00:11:50.812 --> 00:11:56.152 some research you mentioned skills were relatively easy to showcase kind of measure and assess. 00:11:56.832 --> 00:11:58.372 Attributes, not so much. 00:11:58.532 --> 00:12:01.412 So when you're trying to hire someone or select people for your team, 00:12:01.672 --> 00:12:05.132 how do you go about actually finding what attributes someone has? 00:12:05.392 --> 00:12:09.452 And I guess, conversely, how can you best demonstrate the attributes that you do have? 00:12:09.772 --> 00:12:13.012 Yeah, so the first thing, it's a great question. 00:12:13.092 --> 00:12:16.852 The first thing we have to do is understand which attributes we're looking for, 00:12:17.012 --> 00:12:21.372 because every team, every niche is going to have a specific, 00:12:21.572 --> 00:12:25.572 unique set of attributes that allows for or defines success in that niche. 00:12:26.152 --> 00:12:29.772 The list of attributes that are required to be a great Navy SEAL looks different 00:12:29.772 --> 00:12:32.892 than the list of attributes required to be a great salesperson or accountant. 00:12:33.012 --> 00:12:36.752 So that's number one. Number two is you have to, in the hiring process or the 00:12:36.752 --> 00:12:39.092 selection process, implement a little bit of stress, challenge, 00:12:39.132 --> 00:12:40.892 and uncertainty into the process. 00:12:41.032 --> 00:12:43.912 You can do this a couple ways. So let me give you two examples. 00:12:44.052 --> 00:12:48.712 One is an experiential example. So say, Callum, you and I wanted to hire someone who's great at sales. 00:12:48.952 --> 00:12:52.232 Okay. And what we might do is we tell this person on a Friday, 00:12:52.392 --> 00:12:53.952 we say, hey, come in Monday morning. 00:12:54.092 --> 00:12:56.692 You're going to sell us this pencil. Okay. Like we go home for the weekends, 00:12:56.692 --> 00:13:00.532 we come in Monday morning, this person proceeds to show up and just blow our 00:13:00.532 --> 00:13:02.432 minds with their pencil presentation. 00:13:02.712 --> 00:13:04.432 It's something that's one of the best we've ever seen. 00:13:05.036 --> 00:13:07.776 The problem is we would not have learned very much. All we would have learned 00:13:07.776 --> 00:13:11.256 is that person is really good at going home, preparing, and then giving a presentation. 00:13:11.516 --> 00:13:14.256 So instead, what we do is on Friday, we tell that person, hey, 00:13:14.336 --> 00:13:15.776 come in Monday, you're going to sell us this pencil. 00:13:15.896 --> 00:13:18.616 When they show up Monday, however, we say, hey, the plan's changed. 00:13:18.696 --> 00:13:21.116 You're no longer going to sell us this pencil. You're going to sell us this coffee mug. 00:13:21.436 --> 00:13:24.356 And oh, by the way, there's no audio visual, so just roll with it. 00:13:24.716 --> 00:13:28.656 Now, at this point, you and I have to basically deliberately divorce ourselves 00:13:28.656 --> 00:13:32.636 from skills assessment, because what we're about to see is going to be ugly. 00:13:32.636 --> 00:13:35.076 But now we're not looking at skills anymore. 00:13:35.236 --> 00:13:38.496 We're looking at how this person behaves. Do they make light of it? Do they make it happen? 00:13:38.636 --> 00:13:42.136 Do they just, you know, do they roll with it? Or do they kick the dirt? 00:13:42.236 --> 00:13:43.796 Do they make excuses? Do they spiral downward? 00:13:43.976 --> 00:13:47.976 Now we're looking at attributes. And so attributes can be seen always on the 00:13:47.976 --> 00:13:50.256 periphery. They're very rarely what you're looking at directly. 00:13:50.376 --> 00:13:54.156 They're on the periphery of what you're seeing because they're influencing a behavior. 00:13:54.476 --> 00:13:58.656 So that's one way experiential. You can do this with the way you ask questions as well. 00:13:58.796 --> 00:14:03.676 If you ask a question that can insert a little bit of stress or uncertainty 00:14:03.676 --> 00:14:07.016 into that moment, then you get someone from a different optic. 00:14:07.216 --> 00:14:10.136 An example, we worked with a construction company out in Colorado. 00:14:10.316 --> 00:14:12.656 These folks, these guys were awesome, awesome folks. 00:14:12.776 --> 00:14:17.116 And I would

describe them as uber patriots. They had American flags everywhere. 00:14:17.296 --> 00:14:21.416 They're super pro-military. They're really fun, really gracious guys. 00:14:21.756 --> 00:14:25.596 And I remember one of the key attributes they were looking for was open-mindedness. 00:14:25.696 --> 00:14:27.816 And so the CEO said, Rich, how would I. 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:32.760 Ask a question that measured or showed someone's levels of open-mindedness. 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:34.740 And I said, well, let me give you an example. He said, okay. 00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:38.260 I said, give me three good reasons right now to burn the American flag. 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.040 And you can tell when I asked him that he almost had an aneurysm, 00:14:41.140 --> 00:14:43.960 right? But what I was trying to do is I'm trying to pull him out of his fishbowl 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.820 to see if he can actually look from a different optic, which is what open-mindedness is. 00:14:48.060 --> 00:14:51.360 So I didn't make him answer, but he got the point is you can ask a question. 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:54.360 And if you insert a little bit of stress, uncertainty challenge, 00:14:54.800 --> 00:14:57.700 then you're going to start to pull someone out of their normal, 00:14:57.940 --> 00:15:01.860 usual response, their comfort zone, basically, and you can start seeing these attributes. 00:15:02.060 --> 00:15:04.960 But you have to really know what you're looking for before you start doing that. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:09.300 Just a quick question before I hand over to mum. Was he able to answer your 00:15:09.300 --> 00:15:09.800 question? Will you give me a chance? 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:15.660 Rich, I'd really love to delve into the workplace and business and the attributes 00:15:15.660 --> 00:15:21.600 of resilience and managing stressful situations and building trust. 00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:26.560 So I see that you've done work with Simon Sinek on building trust. 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.740 And he says everything he's learned about building trust has come from you. 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:37.780 What have you taught him that all our listeners and viewers would love to learn about? 00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:42.620 Let me give you the highlights. The basic, most important thing we have to understand 00:15:42.620 --> 00:15:46.520 about trust is that trust is not a feeling. 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.720 A feeling is just a human emotion. Trust is, in fact, a belief. 00:15:50.900 --> 00:15:55.080 A belief is a human emotion that's been rationalized or justified by that human 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.320 being, which reminds us of something very important. 00:15:57.460 --> 00:16:00.360 That is, we cannot make somebody trust us. 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:04.940 All we can do is behave in a way that allows them to form a belief of trust 00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:06.000 in us, which means behavior. 00:16:06.405 --> 00:16:13.605 Trust comes from behaviors. We behave in a way that allows someone to develop trust for us. 00:16:13.785 --> 00:16:17.185 So in that, we have to understand that our behavior, our personal behavior, 00:16:17.305 --> 00:16:19.905 which stems so much from attributes, right? 00:16:19.945 --> 00:16:23.225 There are some skills in there too, but things like authenticity, 00:16:23.505 --> 00:16:26.225 things like accountability, things like decisiveness, things like empathy, 00:16:26.305 --> 00:16:27.065 these are all attributes. 00:16:27.245 --> 00:16:30.965 And when you are empathetic to another human being, you are showing that person, 00:16:31.025 --> 00:16:32.605 that person is feeling cared for. 00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:35.265 They're feeling that compassion, which means they're going to start building 00:16:35.265 --> 00:16:39.865 trust. When you are accountable, it's very rare that we look at somebody who's 00:16:39.865 --> 00:16:43.885 always pointing fingers at other people and say, that's someone I want to follow. 00:16:44.025 --> 00:16:46.945 It's very rare. And the reason is because we don't trust that person. 00:16:47.165 --> 00:16:51.305 And leadership, in essence, is trust first. I mean, one of the reasons why we 00:16:51.305 --> 00:16:53.405 choose people as leaders is because we trust them. 00:16:53.505 --> 00:16:57.045 That's one of the key elements. And so the best, 00:16:57.285 --> 00:17:02.765 most, I guess the most brief way to describe trust is trust is about how we 00:17:02.765 --> 00:17:08.925 behave and we cannot expect to have someone trust us if we don't go first in that behavior. 00:17:09.105 --> 00:17:13.405 A lot of times people approach a situation or a relationship and they say things 00:17:13.405 --> 00:17:16.525 like, well, I'm going to trust them when they prove it to me. 00:17:16.665 --> 00:17:18.005 And we're putting the onus on them. 00:17:18.405 --> 00:17:21.445 And that is not how trust works. Trust is a generative act. 00:17:21.565 --> 00:17:24.825 We have to go first because if we don't go first, that person is not going to. 00:17:25.505 --> 00:17:28.225 Reciprocate so so if we want to build trust we have to go 00:17:28.225 --> 00:17:32.245 first and it has to be from these behaviors one of 00:17:32.245 --> 00:17:35.125 the things that i'd say it'd be good to get your perspective on is 00:17:35.125 --> 00:17:38.485 that when we have a new employee in the business and we we 00:17:38.485 --> 00:17:43.065 should give them that trust absolutely straight away and if 00:17:43.065 --> 00:17:45.825 we had an example where you as a leader of 00:17:45.825 --> 00:17:48.605 the business have your new company car and you've just pulled 00:17:48.605 --> 00:17:51.485 up into the car park and this new person says i've 00:17:51.485 --> 00:17:54.385 got the meeting room ready and we're you know but we're out 00:17:54.385 --> 00:17:57.085 of coffee hand me your keys and i'll go 00:17:57.085 --> 00:18:00.085 and get the coffee for you a leader 00:18:00.085 --> 00:18:02.865

should just say absolutely and not think oh my goodness i don't know 00:18:02.865 --> 00:18:07.065 this person they've only been in the business a few days what's your take on 00:18:07.065 --> 00:18:10.885 that well i think that's a wonderful example i think there's an example of extending 00:18:10.885 --> 00:18:15.105 trust and in whatever form that comes in it could be i'm going to give you the 00:18:15.105 --> 00:18:18.965 keys to my vehicle but it could come in i mean the the the idea that people 00:18:18.965 --> 00:18:22.705 have to understand is trust doesn't have to be some of these big, 00:18:22.845 --> 00:18:26.965 these behaviors don't have to be some of these big blatant acts of trust. 00:18:27.185 --> 00:18:32.665 A trusting act could be a manager or boss telling his or her employee, 00:18:32.825 --> 00:18:36.305 hey, you take the lead on this. And I have your back if you screw up, right? 00:18:36.505 --> 00:18:42.225 Trust can be as simple as someone stopping another person in the hall and saying, hey, how are you? 00:18:42.445 --> 00:18:45.625 And really listening to their answer. The trust can be built that way. 00:18:45.745 --> 00:18:47.565 And so your example is a good one. 00:18:47.725 --> 00:18:52.185 However, there are so many little examples of relationship in relationship. 00:18:52.405 --> 00:18:56.225 Whether it be employee and employer, whether it be related, whether it be married 00:18:56.225 --> 00:18:59.445 couples, whether it be friends, where just little acts of, 00:19:00.095 --> 00:19:04.095 care, of compassion, of character, of consistency, build trust. 00:19:04.275 --> 00:19:06.475 And trust can also be built very rapidly. 00:19:06.755 --> 00:19:10.075 I mean, we all know that, you know, if the three of us are together in a building, 00:19:10.075 --> 00:19:14.315 and smoke comes, it starts coming in the door, and someone runs into that room 00:19:14.315 --> 00:19:17.075 who never seen before and says, Hey, follow me, I know the way out. 00:19:17.195 --> 00:19:18.455 And they they take us out. 00:19:18.635 --> 00:19:22.575 We've just built trust very rapidly with that human being. So so trust can actually 00:19:22.575 --> 00:19:26.395 be built rapidly, based on intensity of environment as well. 00:19:26.515 --> 00:19:29.875 But we have to I think I think the key is for all of us, whether we're employers, 00:19:30.035 --> 00:19:34.395 employees, it's understand or in any relationship is that trust is constantly built. 00:19:34.495 --> 00:19:38.275 It's those little things that we do every single day. And they're cumulative. 00:19:38.635 --> 00:19:43.395 And in some cases, where maybe intensity is low, that process may take a little 00:19:43.395 --> 00:19:45.395 bit longer, but it's kind of like going to the gym. 00:19:45.515 --> 00:19:49.295 If we go to the gym, you know, in one week, we go three times and then we look 00:19:49.295 --> 00:19:50.335 in the mirror and we see nothing. 00:19:50.535 --> 00:19:53.235 We're

like, well, we're not going to quit going to the gym. We understand that 00:19:53.235 --> 00:19:56.155 we just have to keep going to the gym over weeks, over weeks, 00:19:56.235 --> 00:19:58.995 and then we'll start to see a change. And the same thing goes with these behaviors. 00:19:59.295 --> 00:20:03.455 So little behaviors, little steps are how we build. Yeah, really thank you for 00:20:03.455 --> 00:20:05.035 sharing those examples as well. 00:20:05.335 --> 00:20:11.595 And really good that we can build it in very small ways and small steps or building and compounding. 00:20:12.035 --> 00:20:16.115 Let's talk a little bit about stressful environments. So you have worked in 00:20:16.115 --> 00:20:19.275 some of the most stressful environments ever. 00:20:20.053 --> 00:20:23.873 And you've listed out the sort of key attributes that you think are needed in 00:20:23.873 --> 00:20:25.193 stressful environments. 00:20:25.653 --> 00:20:31.073 Are they the same attributes that are needed in business in stressful environments? 00:20:31.653 --> 00:20:36.833 And what can leaders in businesses do to help prepare their teams, 00:20:37.353 --> 00:20:42.893 develop their attributes to form extremely well in those stressful situations? 00:20:43.353 --> 00:20:47.813 Yes, the good news is, yes, they are the same attributes. I will say, though, it depends. 00:20:48.353 --> 00:20:52.793 Not every one of the attributes are required in every single stressful situation. 00:20:52.793 --> 00:20:54.273 But we're talking about things like courage. 00:20:54.453 --> 00:20:58.993 We're talking about things like adaptability, perseverance, compartmentalization, things like that. 00:20:59.173 --> 00:21:01.713 And so what we have to understand, and I think what people have to understand 00:21:01.713 --> 00:21:06.773 about stress and challenge and fear and uncertainty, is that it is a physiological 00:21:06.773 --> 00:21:09.613 response to an external environment. 00:21:10.033 --> 00:21:14.493 However, what that tells us is that physiological response, while identical 00:21:14.493 --> 00:21:16.293 in every human being, it's subjective 00:21:16.293 --> 00:21:19.933 in the sense that it's subjective in what's going to bring it on. 00:21:20.133 --> 00:21:24.353 So in other words, the same thing that makes someone stressful or fearful is 00:21:24.353 --> 00:21:26.113 not going to be the same for the person next to them. 00:21:26.233 --> 00:21:31.253 You could literally have a group of Navy SEALs in Afghanistan in a gunfight 00:21:31.253 --> 00:21:35.473 with Al-Qaeda, and in that moment feeling less fear than the eight-year-old 00:21:35.473 --> 00:21:38.233 you just asked to step in front of their classroom and introduce themselves. 00:21:38.453 --> 00:21:42.253 So fear is a subjective thing. But no matter what that fear is, 00:21:42.413 --> 00:21:46.193 courage is the ability to step into our fear, is its ability to take to basically 00:21:46.193 --> 00:21:47.693 choose the fight response. 00:21:47.773 --> 00:21:52.973 We know when the fear response enters into our brain, our amygdala gets tickled 00:21:52.973 --> 00:21:55.413 and we have the fight or flight choice for us, right? 00:21:55.493 --> 00:21:59.173 But if we choose fight, it's a specific switch in that in our brain. 00:21:59.293 --> 00:22:01.673 And that's the courage switch. If we choose to step into our fear, 00:22:01.773 --> 00:22:04.073 we also get a dopamine reward for that. 00:22:04.273 --> 00:22:08.253 However, we cannot access that courage switch unless we have fear present. 00:22:08.733 --> 00:22:12.293 And so just because, so in other words, 00:22:12.293 --> 00:22:14.993 courage in any capacity has nothing to do or your 00:22:14.993 --> 00:22:17.793 levels of courage have nothing to do with what you do for a living you can 00:22:17.793 --> 00:22:21.073 be you could be a generally anxious person but because every 00:22:21.073 --> 00:22:24.213 single day every moment you're stepping into your discomfort you're high on 00:22:24.213 --> 00:22:27.833 courage you could be someone who does crazy things i don't know if you're familiar 00:22:27.833 --> 00:22:31.093 with alex honnold he had there's a documentary called free solo um this guy 00:22:31.093 --> 00:22:34.893 does free climbing up enormous peaks i mean when you watch the documentary your 00:22:34.893 --> 00:22:38.373 your hands sweat because it's so crazy but they looked at his brain and in the 00:22:38.373 --> 00:22:39.773 documentary They saw that his brain, 00:22:39.913 --> 00:22:44.033 his fear switch doesn't kick on the same way or at the same time most people do. 00:22:44.133 --> 00:22:48.873 It takes a while for his courage switch to kick on, which means he's not accessing it the same way. 00:22:48.933 --> 00:22:52.333 Now, I'm not saying Alex Hunnold is not courageous. I'm just saying that it 00:22:52.333 --> 00:22:56.593 takes longer for him to access that switch. We cannot have courage in the absence of fear. 00:22:56.753 --> 00:22:59.793 So I think what we have to understand as leaders, as teammates, 00:23:00.033 --> 00:23:04.173 what it means getting through stress and fear uncertainty, the first step is 00:23:04.173 --> 00:23:07.453 understanding and encouraging those to step into their fear. 00:23:07.453 --> 00:23:10.733 And then there's other attributes that we can start to take into account. 00:23:11.113 --> 00:23:13.933 Adaptability, the environment is changing around us. How well are we flexing with that? 00:23:14.473 --> 00:23:16.973 Perseverance, do we keep on going? Or, you know, do we have that? 00:23:17.695 --> 00:23:22.075 Efforts in there. Compartmentalization is really big in terms of a mental acute 00:23:22.075 --> 00:23:23.335 attribute, probably the most 00:23:23.335 --> 00:23:26.975 important one when it comes to dealing with stress, uncertainty, and fear. 00:23:27.055 --> 00:23:31.495 And that's really your ability to, out of a prioritization effort and your

environment, 00:23:31.655 --> 00:23:35.635 to pick something to focus on and stay on that and block out everything else. 00:23:35.735 --> 00:23:39.535 That's probably the number one attribute for Navy SEALs to make it through training 00:23:39.535 --> 00:23:43.295 is, hey, I'm not going to worry about all of this that I can't control. 00:23:43.395 --> 00:23:46.275 I'm going to pick one thing I can control and I'm going to move to that, I'm going to do that. 00:23:46.435 --> 00:23:48.395 And then I'm going to pick the next thing. And I'm going to pick the next thing 00:23:48.395 --> 00:23:51.435 on the next thing. And then you slowly step through that. So I think those types 00:23:51.435 --> 00:23:53.835 of things can be both trained and encouraged by leaders. 00:23:53.995 --> 00:23:57.475 But again, I think courage, just like fear is infectious. 00:23:57.975 --> 00:24:00.835 And that's you see it in the end of animal kingdom as well, you see a bunch 00:24:00.835 --> 00:24:05.795 of antelope in the in the grassy plains, and there's a lion stalking them and 00:24:05.795 --> 00:24:09.935 one animal looks up and all the arrests look up and they all run together, right? 00:24:10.075 --> 00:24:13.955 So so we know or a better example for us humans is if we're on a flight, 00:24:14.135 --> 00:24:18.735 going somewhere and we hit turbulence, if we look over and the flight attendants 00:24:18.735 --> 00:24:21.615 are all cowering and crying, we're going to be frightened. 00:24:21.875 --> 00:24:24.635 But if we see them all talking calmly and just going about their business, 00:24:24.815 --> 00:24:25.595 we'll probably be calming. 00:24:25.735 --> 00:24:28.595 And so as leaders, as teammates, we have to understand that courage, 00:24:28.735 --> 00:24:29.995 just like fear, is infectious. 00:24:30.135 --> 00:24:34.315 And our response can help affect the responses of others. We should know that with kids too. 00:24:35.695 --> 00:24:40.755 Well, Karen and I took your attributes assessment, which is an online assessment, 00:24:40.755 --> 00:24:45.255 200 and something questions great questions, 00:24:45.728 --> 00:24:49.908 feedback from that, very aligned to who we are as individuals. 00:24:50.628 --> 00:24:53.468 Is this something that you do when you work with organizations, 00:24:53.468 --> 00:24:56.068 you take them through this attributes assessment? 00:24:56.308 --> 00:24:59.868 And then what do you do after that when the team have completed it? 00:25:00.388 --> 00:25:03.548 Yeah. And thanks for taking that, by the way. I was looking at your results. They're great. 00:25:03.668 --> 00:25:06.668 I want to say, though, when you take the assessment, a couple of things to understand, 00:25:06.808 --> 00:25:08.928 a couple of things that set this assessment apart. 00:25:09.068 --> 00:25:12.488 First of all, this is not a personality test. And personality tests are designed 00:25:12.488 --> 00:25:15.868 to show you how you are in normal everyday life with, you know, 00:25:15.988 --> 00:25:17.208 with normal stuff going on. 00:25:17.888 --> 00:25:21.148 Attributes, this attributes assessment shows you who you are at your most raw. 00:25:21.348 --> 00:25:24.328 In other words, it's your performance fingerprints. So that's number one. 00:25:24.748 --> 00:25:28.088 And by the way, I love most of the personality tests. I've taken almost all of them. 00:25:28.188 --> 00:25:31.128 I would say the attributes buttress any one of those, you understand who you 00:25:31.128 --> 00:25:33.488 are in regular life, but then the attributes allow you to understand who you 00:25:33.488 --> 00:25:34.468 are at your very most raw. 00:25:34.948 --> 00:25:39.688 That's number one. Number two is that as you both realize you get a 40, 00:25:39.868 --> 00:25:42.468 you got a list of your 41 attributes from one to 41. 00:25:42.628 --> 00:25:46.228 So they're ranked in order for one to your top attribute all the way to your bottom attribute. 00:25:46.488 --> 00:25:50.348 And what we have to understand and realize is that there's no judgment in those rankings. 00:25:50.548 --> 00:25:55.008 And we don't look at that as top five and those bottom five as your strengths and your weaknesses. 00:25:55.328 --> 00:25:58.808 In other words, you are successful and strong. Both of you are successful and 00:25:58.808 --> 00:26:02.628 strong in what you do as much because of your top five as your bottom five, 00:26:02.888 --> 00:26:07.488 your bottom five, you being low in your bottom five have contributed to your success. 00:26:07.748 --> 00:26:10.708 Now, in that, what we do with organizations and teams is we allow people to 00:26:10.708 --> 00:26:13.268 say, okay, first of all, understand your performance fingerprint, 00:26:13.448 --> 00:26:16.008 understand why this order has served you. 00:26:16.068 --> 00:26:22.448 But let's do the honest introspection and ask ourselves, why or how has this order not served us? 00:26:22.508 --> 00:26:26.888 So in other words, there are some ways and reasons how your top five have not 00:26:26.888 --> 00:26:28.768 served you, some blind spots you have to be considered. 00:26:29.128 --> 00:26:32.948 Same thing with your bottom five. Well, there's tons of reasons why you're having 00:26:32.948 --> 00:26:34.548 those as your bottom five has served you. 00:26:34.628 --> 00:26:38.768 And there's also ways and reasons or blind spots about having those bottom five has not served you. 00:26:38.908 --> 00:26:42.808 So the work we do with teams and organizations, we allow every team member to 00:26:42.808 --> 00:26:47.268 understand themselves at a very elemental level, understand and get. 00:26:48.375 --> 00:26:53.455 Comfortable with the fact that this is not a judgment, that we all have a unique 00:26:53.455 --> 00:26:56.495 performance fingerprint that we then can contribute to the team. 00:26:56.675 --> 00:26:59.995 And then what's cool is that we understand that, you know, sometimes, 00:27:00.215 -->

00:27:03.255 usually in regular life, even though our attribute list is somewhat set, 00:27:03.355 --> 00:27:05.895 we can obviously develop attributes over time. 00:27:06.155 --> 00:27:08.995 What's happening most of the time in our environments is we're either dialing 00:27:08.995 --> 00:27:10.115 up or dialing down attributes. 00:27:10.375 --> 00:27:13.955 So in other words, if you're low on patience, you know, based on environment, 00:27:14.095 --> 00:27:16.335 you may be at home, you might have to dial up your patients. 00:27:16.635 --> 00:27:18.195 Because at home, you need to dial up your patient. 00:27:18.355 --> 00:27:22.295 If you're high on, I have a buddy whose number one attribute was humor. 00:27:22.515 --> 00:27:25.155 And I asked him, hey, do you sometimes have to dial down your humor? 00:27:25.275 --> 00:27:27.675 And he said, Oh, yes, I definitely have to dial down my humor sometimes, 00:27:27.855 --> 00:27:30.755 because the environment is not going to appreciate the joke I want to tell. 00:27:30.875 --> 00:27:34.675 So what we're usually doing in different environments is we have a set order 00:27:34.675 --> 00:27:36.335 of the way we prioritize these things. 00:27:36.495 --> 00:27:39.635 And we're just dialing up and dialing down the dialing up dialing down takes 00:27:39.635 --> 00:27:41.675 conscious thought on our on our part. 00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:46.515 So the way your attributes rank are basically how you operate without thinking. 00:27:46.755 --> 00:27:48.895 And then when you dial up, dial down, it takes conscious thought. 00:27:49.015 --> 00:27:54.715 And so what we do is we align, we allow teams to understand this about themselves, about each other. 00:27:54.855 --> 00:27:59.155 And they say, oh, wait a second. Now we can team in very unique ways because 00:27:59.155 --> 00:28:00.595 now we're not judging anybody anymore. 00:28:00.815 --> 00:28:05.735 My low patience for this person and my frustration is because that person has high patience. 00:28:05.855 --> 00:28:08.835 So I think of that person as slow, but now I can appreciate that that person's 00:28:08.835 --> 00:28:12.655 high patience can in fact, in some cases, slow me down when I need to slow down. 00:28:12.935 --> 00:28:16.875 And so it takes the judgment out of these performance pictures and allows for 00:28:16.875 --> 00:28:19.295 really high performing, high efficiency teams. 00:28:20.015 --> 00:28:24.515 Okay. Can I just jump in with a quick question? Rich, I'd be curious to get your perspective. 00:28:24.755 --> 00:28:30.955 What do you think is an attribute that most people either misunderstand or don't 00:28:30.955 --> 00:28:32.995 value as high as perhaps what they should? 00:28:33.455 --> 00:28:36.115 Oh, that's a great one. And there's probably multiple answers to that. 00:28:36.195 --> 00:28:39.175 But let me give you the most common misunderstanding. And that is the difference 00:28:39.175 --> 00:28:40.735 between perseverance and resilience.

00:28:41.055 --> 00:28:45.175 Most people conflate those two. Perseverance is the ability to get knocked down 00:28:45.175 --> 00:28:46.395 seven times and get up eight. 00:28:46.575 --> 00:28:50.215 It's I'm going to keep coming no matter what. You know, it's a Rocky Balboa effect. 00:28:50.415 --> 00:28:54.415 Whereas resilience is I get knocked off baseline and how quickly and efficiently 00:28:54.415 --> 00:28:55.595 can I come back to baseline? 00:28:55.735 --> 00:28:58.255 It's that rubber band that you stretch and then when you let go, 00:28:58.375 --> 00:28:59.495 it gets back to its original shape. 00:28:59.875 --> 00:29:03.935 Resilience is about recovery, whereas perseverance is about just keep going, keep going. 00:29:04.035 --> 00:29:07.855 And the reason why that matters is because these attributes can sometimes live 00:29:07.855 --> 00:29:09.015 independently of each other. 00:29:09.115 --> 00:29:12.635 In other words, I've worked with performers, top performers who are high on 00:29:12.635 --> 00:29:14.675 perseverance, and low on resilience. 00:29:14.975 --> 00:29:17.555 And what does that look like? That looks like someone who's headed for burnout, 00:29:17.815 --> 00:29:20.175 or who's already burnt out, because that's someone who's just going to go, 00:29:20.295 --> 00:29:23.195 go, go, go, but they never take time to recover. 00:29:23.355 --> 00:29:26.415 And so people have to understand that a lot of people say, no, I'm really resilient. 00:29:26.555 --> 00:29:28.775 But what they're thinking, what they're actually saying is they're perseverant, 00:29:28.935 --> 00:29:31.315 they're conflating it, and they're just going to go, go, go, 00:29:31.435 --> 00:29:32.595 go, and they're going to head to burnout. 00:29:32.815 --> 00:29:36.155 So, so there's, there's multiple examples in the 41 of those types of, 00:29:36.295 --> 00:29:40.135 of those types of what I call metonyms where people think of attributes as the 00:29:40.135 --> 00:29:42.695 same thing, but they're not, but that's probably some of the most important 00:29:42.695 --> 00:29:43.735 when it comes to top performers. 00:29:44.594 --> 00:29:46.834 Well, I'm glad you shared that. Thank you. Because I was looking at my report 00:29:46.834 --> 00:29:48.894 and one of my top five attributes was discipline. 00:29:49.094 --> 00:29:51.894 And one of my bottom five was persistence. So I was curious to see what the 00:29:51.894 --> 00:29:53.114 difference between those two actually was. 00:29:53.534 --> 00:29:55.874 Yeah. Well, discipline is the... 00:29:58.234 --> 00:30:02.314 A little bit different, but persistence is this idea that there's a steadfastness 00:30:02.314 --> 00:30:06.314 in your... I know there's a course of action that I just stick to and I know 00:30:06.314 --> 00:30:08.694 it's going to work out. That's persistence. That's the stonecutter approach. 00:30:08.834 --> 00:30:12.494 The fact that you are low on that just speaks to the idea that you are someone

00:30:12.494 --> 00:30:15.934 who, when something's not working, you tend to just try something else. 00:30:16.114 --> 00:30:19.674 And if that's not working, you try something else, which is actually an enormously 00:30:19.674 --> 00:30:22.094 powerful trait or quality or even attribute. 00:30:22.274 --> 00:30:26.454 However, what the blind spot you have to be aware of is sometimes it might make 00:30:26.454 --> 00:30:29.794 sense in a moment just to stick to the course of action, because you may be 00:30:29.794 --> 00:30:33.114 drawn to change your course of action because you have a better idea, 00:30:33.114 --> 00:30:35.534 or you're going to adapt because you're high on adaptability as well. 00:30:35.654 --> 00:30:38.374 So it's just an indicator that you are, yes, you're low on it, 00:30:38.474 --> 00:30:41.294 but you may just say to yourself, hey, in this certain case, 00:30:41.454 --> 00:30:44.814 I need to stick to this course of action because you may be drawn not to. 00:30:45.034 --> 00:30:47.354 That's what that means. Glad you clarified. Thank you. 00:30:49.054 --> 00:30:51.774 Are you going to wrap up with the last question, Callum? No, 00:30:51.874 --> 00:30:53.634 I've asked mine. You can take a second. 00:30:54.274 --> 00:30:58.554 So, Rich, if you could go back in time and share something that, 00:30:58.814 --> 00:31:04.174 or a leadership myth that you believed at that time, but you've now debunked, 00:31:04.939 --> 00:31:10.719 What is it? Oh, gosh. Well, I think certainly as a younger leader, 00:31:11.139 --> 00:31:16.599 you come in thinking that you have to be able to do everything, 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.699 that you have to, you know, this whole lead from the front idea. 00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:25.939 Where you see the leader in the front of the train or the front of the posse leading the charge. 00:31:26.159 --> 00:31:30.679 And that is a huge myth. We know that the best leaders are the ones who influence 00:31:30.679 --> 00:31:35.039 and they inspire and they empower. and oftentimes they're maybe in the middle 00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:40.179 or the back and they are really generating the team to be its best self. 00:31:40.339 --> 00:31:43.299 So I think that's something I, fortunately I learned that fairly quickly, 00:31:43.439 --> 00:31:48.739 but I think I came into my career thinking that that was the truth and learned very quickly. 00:31:48.979 --> 00:31:52.319 That's not how a team runs and that's not your job as a leader of a team. 00:31:52.399 --> 00:31:56.339 Your job as a leader of a team is to make the best team work and that's not 00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:59.899 about you in front telling people to follow you. It's just not. 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.179 And so I think that's the biggest one. 00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:04.799 Yeah thank you my similar learning was 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:07.579 like i didn't have to have all the answers that's why 00:32:07.579 --> 00:32:10.739 you have a team yeah that's right yeah you don't have to know it all i 00:32:10.739 --> 00:32:13.539 think you know have to have all the answers know it 00:32:13.539 --> 00:32:17.019 all that was not quite the right phrase but rich it's been brilliant to have 00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:23.079 you i mean i know we could carry on talking and dive into these topics the attributes 00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:26.959 assessment i will share that in the show notes and you very kindly have offered 00:32:26.959 --> 00:32:31.579 a discount on that so we'll share that for everybody to go and have a look at. 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:36.099 It's fascinating and gives a deep insight into our own attributes. 00:32:36.879 --> 00:32:40.479 So as we wrap up, I'd like to say a very big thank you to you, 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.519 Rich. It's been so insightful, so enjoyable. Thank you very much. 00:32:45.259 --> 00:32:47.259 Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I've enjoyed the conversation. 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.999 Likewise to me, Rich. Thanks so much. And I really enjoyed the conversation too. Oh, thank you.